The Trial Counsel has rested in PFC Bradley Manning’s Article 32 hearing at Fort Meyer, VA. Today the Defense may begin to rebut the Trial Counsel’s case. This is not a trial, but more like a Grand Jury hearing (with a jury of one), except that the Defense has the right to call witnesses, present evidence, and cross examine Trial Counsel’s witnesses. The Defense is under no obligation at all to put on a Defense, but given the vigorous defense and cross examination of Government witnesses so far, there is no reason to believe that PFC Manning’s defense team will slow down now.
MSNBC has a story about how lawyers and counselors who specialize in gender identity issues have been concerned with the Defense’s focus on PFC Manning’s apparent gender identity disorder.
Yesterday, as the Government concluded their presentation, their final witness was former SPC Jihrleah Showman, who testified that she was Manning’s immediate supervisor in his work and that she witnessed his deterioration and reported it multiple times to the company First Sergeant, (E-8) Paul Adkins. Adkins has since been administratively demoted to Sergeant First Class (E-7). They demoted him administratively for his failures of leadership in this episode. The more I learn about this story, the more I am convinced that Manning’s chain of command failed him at multiple levels. Adkins, in particular, had multiple episodes in which he is shown to have known or believed that Manning had no business being downrange or handling classified information. He was reduced administratively, which pretty much torpedoes his career, but I believe he should’ve been court-martial’ed. As a senior NCO, he cannot be given any punishment under Article 15, UCMJ, so the only criminal proceedings he could face would be a full court-martial. I do believe that a case could probably be made that his negligence rises to a the level of criminality, but the Convening Authority for him probably didn’t agree and so went with administrative punishment.
NONE of that–the gender identity issues, the mulitple failures of his chain of command to properly supervise and discipline, the failures of the other Soldiers, Officers, and NCOs in the T-SCIF in Iraq excuse Manning’s knowing behavior. The RCM 706 board returned a finding that Manning was able to assist in his own defense, and that will mitigate against a case of insanity. It seems that is the direction that Manning’s defense team is heading. They haven’t cross examined the technical witnesses extensively or at all except to ask one of them whether or not anything on Manning’s portable hard drive seemed “strange” to which the investigator replied “it’s a computer drive, Sir.” They have, however, extensively cross-examined the witnesses who interacted with Manning on a daily basis, and introduced documentation regarding his supposed gender identity disorder as well as the multiple failures of leadership that I’ve mentioned above.
The hearing is expected to continue through the week, and at some point in the next thirty to sixty days, the Investigating Officer, who is presiding at this hearing, will make a report to the Convening Authority regarding what disposition he recommends. It is entirely within the purview of the CA to dispose of these charges as he sees fit, and that decision is not subject to review.
UPDATE: According to Joe Gould, the Army Times reporter covering the hearing, Mr. Coombs, PFC Manning’s attorney, has called only two witnesses of the 48 he had on his list, and has rested his presentation. He made a motion to continue the hearing directly to closing arguments, but the Trial Counsel requested adjournment until tomorrow. Coombs apparently agreed to this (if I read his tweets correctly) and both sides will present final arguments tomorrow. The Investigating Officer will have until the 16th of January to present his findings and recommendations to the Convening Authority, the Commanding General of the Military District of Washington, unless he requests more time to prepare. I have found nothing at this time regarding the two witnesses Mr. Coombs called. Apparently, according to Mr. Gould, 10 of the Government’s witnesses were also on the Defense list.
Samara Morgan
i do appreciate your attempt at factual unbiased coverage.
but you need to make it clear to the juicitariat what actually happened. Manning had legit access to everything in the facility. He had a SECRET NORORN access, which was the highest level of intel there. He could not physically read up or read outside his compartment. Even the diplo cables were CONFIDENTIAL NOFORN or CONFIDENTIAL FOUO for the most past.
Where he violated his oath and the Star Property is that he WROTE DOWN.
Mannings lawyers are entitled to use any defense…IPOF they are morally and legally obligated to mount the best defense they can.
I would use the whistleblower defense if it was me.
but its not.
perhaps a whistleblower defense is not permissable in a military court.
Ellsberg had a civilian trial didnt he?
The Other Bob
I know this post isn’t about whistleblowing, but I have to ask: Is every piece of confidential information released by Manning evidence of some sort of Government conspiracy or wrongdoing necessitating a whistle blower?
ornery
Sooner, does any level of military malfeasance rise to the level of being exposed to the public … and if so, what?
Raven
@Samara Morgan: Ellsberg was not in the military at that time.
Trurl
Right. What excuses Manning’s knowing behavior is the oath he swore to defend the Constitution against domestic enemies.
Seth Owen
While I think a case can be made that Manning’s alleged actions may have had some positive impact, it’s also clear that no government could possibly tolerate allowing some junior soldier taking it upon himself to simply release whatever classified information HE decides ought not to be a secret. I haven’t approved of the treatment Manning has received, but should he be proven to have done what he’s been accused of doing the government must, and properly should, impose a significant sentence.
AxelFoley
Dis gon be good.
Guster
@Seth Owen: I agree, with one caveat: that other members of the armed forces be treated the same. But it seems to me that we’re looking at another case of ‘one law for me, another for thee’ here.
JGabriel
Soonergrunt @ Top:
Umm, don’t the gender identity issues — and we’re talking about identity confusion not just gender confusion — raise the issue of whether he was capable of being rationally responsible for his actions?
You seem to be admitting as much when you say the chain of command above him should have recognized that Manning shouldn’t have been handling classified material.
I’m not prepared to advocate or dismiss such an argument. Just pointing out that by your own admissions, we don’t really know what Manning’s “knowing” behavior was, and what behavior of his was not “knowing”.
Given the circumstances of Manning’s detention, combined with his identity disorder, it’s possible that his state of mind, and awareness of the right or wrong of his actions, is no longer even determinable.
.
quickly
Guster, exactly. How many “on background” and “anonymous” sources are routinely printed and reported on in the press revealing sensitive information? And how many are investigated?
More likely, these anonymous leaks are directed by government officials to get the content out into the public. Think aluminum tubes.
Norbrook
@The Other Bob: No, it’s not evidence of conspiracy or wrongdoing. Most of the confidential material he released were things that you would expect to see from embassies: Frank (brutally so, in some cases) evaluations of foreign leaders, reports of conversations, reports from sources, and so on.
That’s why the “whistleblower” defense fails miserably in his case. It’s not that he “found” something wrong or criminal and leaked it. He just did a blanket data dump without really looking through any of it. It seriously damaged our diplomatic relations.
Norbrook
@JGabriel:
No, I don’t think that’s going to fly. What I think the defense is doing is setting up a case down the line for “matters in extenuation or mitigation.”
Amir Khalid
That Manning’s lawyers are focusing on his mental state, rather than the facts of the case which don’t seem to be at issue, tends to confirm my suspicion that they’re going for the lightest possible sentence. They seem to have accepted that an acquittal is not going to happen. Although at first it struck me as odd: as a court reporter, I saw people plead for mitigation only after pleading guilty, or upon conviction; not at a preliminary hearing.
Now that his legal process is underway, I think his case has exposed another issue within the US military. Those failures in the chain of command above him — like the company first sergeant who ignored his supervisor’s reports about his deterioration again and again — are they an isolated case, or reflective of a systemic problem in the military as a whole? Does anyone know if the US Army is looking at that?
Samara Morgan
@Trurl: no, wrong. Manning violated his oath to protect classified data, he WROTE DOWN.
@Norbrook: i think the whistleblower defense applies also to the diplo cables (many evidenced conspiracy) but more importantly to the collateral murder video, and the Iraq and A-stan document drops.
Perhaps we should all watch the collateral murder video again.
the “Leaker” tasked Assange with maximizing exposure.
Sure sounds like whistleblowing to me.
Samara Morgan
@Seth Owen:
i think the Iraq doc drop had a significant impact on the perceptions of american troops by the Iraqi electorate, resulting in our current humiliating expulsion from Iraq.
Samara Morgan
hey sooner, why do you think Manning didnt have access to the Haditha data?
was it maybe classified TS or in a compartment Manning didnt have access to?
Admiral_Komack
@AxelFoley:
Pop the popcorn.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
What is your evidence for this?. To my knowledge, Iraqis have wanted American troops off their soil for years now, in fact since soon after the invasion. Wikipedia first released documents leaked By Manning only in February 2010.
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: A whistleblower defense is possible in a military court, but that would require Manning to prove, as a matter of law, that what he was seeing was illegal. And while he could conceivably prove that with some of the stuff he leaked (the gunship video comes to mind) he can’t prove that with the vast majority of what he leaked, and it would only apply if he sent that data to somebody within channels, or possibly within the government, like a US Senator, for example.
And yes, Manning’s defense is allowed to put on whatever theory they wish, and they are under no obligation to consider what others may think.
As for his clearance–having a clearance is not the same thing as having authorization to see everything at that clearance level. I have a Top Secret clearance (which should soon be rescinded for non-use since I don’t do that work anymore), but that doesn’t authorize me to download technical manuals for radar systems, which are TS, but I don’t need to know that stuff to do my job and never did.
Steve
I don’t see how someone can indiscriminately leak hundreds of thousands of classified documents, and then if one or two or twelve of them turns out to involve a matter of public concern, assert a whistleblower defense. Daniel Ellsberg leaked a specific document in order to expose specific truths to the American public. It’s nice of Ellsberg to stick up for Manning, but the two situations couldn’t be more dissimilar from my perspective.
It’s all well and good to entertain the fantasy that the Wikileaks cables transformed Iraqi public opinion and led to the end of the occupation (and fantasy it is, since 70+% of the Iraqi public has wanted coalition troops out for YEARS) but that likewise has nothing to do with whistleblowing.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: its a hypothesis. The supporting empirical evidence is that America tried desperately to rewrite the SOFA while Muqtada collected 2.5 million sigs telling the americans to leave, and the Iraq doc drop enhanced al Jazeeras prestige and readership in a global fashion.
The information transparency of the Iraq doc drop enabled Muqtada to bully Maliki and Awlawi and turned supporting continued American presence into political death poison for Iraqi politicians.
i suppose the null hypoth is that the Iraq doc drop made no difference. it seems pretty obvious from the timeline, the start of the fridays of rage, that it did have some effect in increasing anti-american sentiment in the Iraqi population.
It certainly didnt make the Iraqis keen to keep american troops around, now did it?
Soonergrunt
@Trurl: And he can try that one. He’ll have to prove that EVERYTHING he saw and exposed to Wikileaks was a violation of US law, AND that he had NO OTHER CONCEIVABLE AVENUE to prevent/stop the ‘criminal’ activity. EVERY SINGLE THING. Otherwise that defense will fail.
It is not enough, under military law, to believe an order or action by a superior is unlawful. Orders and actions are considered lawful as a prima facie exercise. They must be proven unlawful as part of an affirmative defense.
Egilsson
Bradley should get a medal and a pardon.
That kid is a hero. I wish there were more like him.
IL JimP
The failure of his commanders will probably help at sentencing, but if the rest of the allegations are true then he should do time for breaking the law.
Samara Morgan
@Steve:
not the diplo cables– al Jazeeras coverage of the Iraq document drop in arabic, with stories and pictures.
al Jazeera got it out first.
@Soonergrunt:
but it does permit you to physically download them, as long as you have the facility access, doesnt it?
again, why do think the Haditha investigation wasn’t in the db?
i think they classified it upwards, or code worded it.
Soonergrunt
@JGabriel: Again, for that to work as a defense–and it sure seems to be where the Defense team is going–they must show not that he was mentally ill at the time of his alleged misconduct, but that he suffered from mental illness so severe that he was unable to appreciate the unlawfulness of his actions.
That he was emotionally unstable is relevant only so far as to whether or not he was able to understand that just because he was pissed off at the Army, that was no excuse to violate his oath and engage in misconduct.
That his supervisors failed in their duty to the nation, and to him is relevant for mitigating circumstance, but it doesn’t relieve him of his responsibility to obey the law.
If your local Policeman is incompetent or lazy, does that license you to rape your neighbor? Of course it doesn’t. The question doesn’t even survive the asking. If your boss is a weak leader, may you embezzle from the company? Again, no. The unlawful act is still unlawful, even as the control mechanism may break down.
Samara Morgan
@Steve: but Panetta obviously thought he was going to be able to work something out. there has been a whole year of coverage attesting to that. i think the Iraq doc drop helped force Maliki and Awlawi to just say no, even to Obama at the end.
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: None of which has anything to do with whether or not PFC Bradley Manning unlawfully exceeded his authorized access, downloaded classified information to a non-secure information system, and then transferred that information to a third party not authorized to receive it.
AxelFoley
@Egilsson:
More “heroes” to leak classified U.S. info to others? To commit treason against our government? That’s what you’re advocating?
Fucking douche.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: could whistleblowing on some obviously unlawful documents be used to mitigate?
Samara Morgan
@AxelFoley: i think hes a hero too. i think its a good thing we got forced out of Iraq, and a good that we cant pretend in A-stan anymore.
Daniel Ellsberg says he is hero as well.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: yup, he wrote down. but how could he “unlawfully exceed his authorized access” ?
there was no TS codeword data that he had access to.
he had “authorized” access to everyting in the facility.
burnspbesq
@Trurl:
“Right. What excuses Manning’s knowing behavior is the oath he swore to defend the Constitution against domestic enemies.”
In your dreams, perhaps, but not in this proceeding.
Samara Morgan
@AxelFoley: we were not going to leave Iraq. What dont you understand about that?
We built 505 bases there, including the three largest airfields ever built on foreign soil.
burnspbesq
@Guster:
If you are aware of actual instances of military personnel doing what Manning did and avoiding prosecution, do please share. If not, have the decency to admit that you are just making stuff up.
JGabriel
@AxelFoley:
Treason is a strong word, and as a legal matter, I believe it requires intent to help the enemy, not just as result of your actions.
Manning’s intent, however misguided, appears to have been to liberate information (“Information should be free!”), not to aid the enemy (whomever you mean by the unidentified enemy here). His actions probably violate other laws and his oath, but it’s not treason.
.
burnspbesq
@Samara Morgan:
“the “Leaker” tasked Assange with maximizing exposure. Sure sounds like whistleblowing to me.”
Careful, there, sweetie. If that can be proven, Assange is going down for conspiracy.
Admiral_Komack
@Egilsson:
Bradley Manning should be put in jail.
Samara Morgan
@burnspbesq:
only if Amerikkka can get its hands on him.
;)
Amir Khalid
@Egilsson:
I don’t agree that Bradley Manning is a hero. what I’ve read about him suggests he has psychological problems, possibly including gender identity disorder, and probably shouldn’t have been accepted into the army. As to his actions, bear in mind what soonergrunt said: Manning didn’t disclose information directly pertaining to specific misdeeds to someone who could do something about them. He accessed large quantities of secret communications, in violation of the trust the US Army placed in him, and gave them over to Wikileaks.
Before Manning can be pardoned for anything he did, he must first be convicted of it at a court-martial. If you can be court martialed for an action, it’s usually not something you should expect a medal for. Whether he’s guilty of something or not, I think what he really needs is psychiatric treatment.
burnspbesq
@Samara Morgan:
“Daniel Ellsberg says he is hero as well.”
“Hero” and “criminal” are not mutually exclusive.
Samara Morgan
@Admiral_Komack: he is in jail. and he has been in jail for 569 days without being charged.
LAC
Ok, I’m confused. I thought Manning was some sort of hero to be deified. Now, if the defense’s tactics are to be believed, he is a messed up gender confused kid who was failed by the military chain of command and he did nothing wrong? Wow…
The Moar You Know
@Samara Morgan: Ahhh, here you are again, blathering on about which you know nothing.
The answer to your question is “No”. You are not permitted to look at, examine, touch, download or in any other way have any interaction with data that is not within the purview of your assignment – your “need to know” – even if it’s in the same room with you and it’s at a level equal to or lower than your clearance.
Every single item that Manning leaked he had no business even looking at, much less downloading onto a CD to remove from the facility.
The only mystery to me is why his company First Sergeant isn’t sitting in the dock beside him; he was warned, apparently multiple times. Ignoring that is as big a deal as what Manning did.
Suffern ACE
@Admiral_Komack: Most likely he will be. Hopefully not for very long.
burnspbesq
@Samara Morgan:
In case you’ve forgotten, the United States has extradition treaties with the United Kingdom and Sweden.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: do you know who else had psychological problems that went ignored?
Dr. Major Hassan.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: You can’t remove the classified data (in any form) from a secure facility.
Suffern ACE
@LAC: I think you are as confused as I am, but we have to note that the defense hasn’t presented its defense yet.
Egilsson
I’m tired of the poisonous jerk-factor here. Too many posters just flare out in these nerd-rages.
I believe Axelfoley is one of these regulars along these lines, along with eemom, General Stuck and Allan.
Yes, Manning is actually a hero. Obviously you disagree; I guess you are a good, authoritarian drone.
I believe in much greater transparency and accountability by our government, and proof that a lot of things we thought were lies were actually lies is a good thing. That’s good in a democracy. If you call that treason, I don’t think you are that committed to democracy.
In fact, my guess is that you were probably one of those who were originally screaming for war in Iraq too? People who were always wrong are still wrong, even when they can only post obscenties in a blog comment.
Samara Morgan
@burnspbesq: lol, i havent forgotten.
and neither has Julian.
;)
burnspbesq
@LAC:
Manning’s counsel are doing exactly what they should be doing under the circumstances: zealously representing their client within the law. In a case such as this, where the facts are undisputed and there is no doubt that those facts are sufficient to prove every element of the offense, that means trying to establish an affirmative defense. So if it looks like the defense is throwing Jello at the wall and hoping some of it will stick, it’s because that is exactly what they are doing. As a lawyer, I applaud them. As a citizen, I hope they fail.
Suffern ACE
@Amir Khalid: He does sound like someone I would have been bummed out to have to work with every day. The testimony where he lay down in a fetal position in response to a work request…not certain how I would have dealt with that if I were in the next cube.
Steve
I generally think of myself as pretty liberal, but discussions like this are sometimes useful to remind me that I’m really just a wanna-be in a lot of ways. I could never imagine making excuses for someone like Bradley Manning.
Samara Morgan
@Paul in KY: lol
you can be authorized to carry between facilities, did you know that?
but that isnt my point.
the part of Mannings oath that he violated was writing DOWN. he wrote classified data on unclass media. even within the facility that is a violation.
i do not agree with sooner that he accessed data he no authorization for.
there is no evidence that he read up.
The Moar You Know
Here’s the thing that bothers me about how some lefties are dealing with Manning’s crimes.
Manning broke the law. Nobody can argue that.
Quite a few of you seem to be saying that not only that it’s OK that he broke the law because you like the results, but that he shouldn’t suffer any consequences for his actions.
If I replace Manning’s name with Cheney, I have word-for-word the same arguments that wingnuts use for saying that Cheney shouldn’t see the inside of a jail and, in fact, should be given a medal. I also have the same argument that the Israelis use for claiming that Pollard should be let out of jail.
This isn’t a slippery slope, it’s greased-up brand new rails leading straight to hell.
Those who break the law should be punished, regardless of who they are or how much you like the results of their lawbreaking.
Samara Morgan
@Steve: So you do not think it is A Very Good Thing we are leaving Iraq and A-stan?
because Manning helped accomplish that.
mikeyes
@JGabriel: Gender Identity Disorder does not involve either psychosis or cognitive dysfunction so it is unlikely that a diminished capacity defense will fly, at least on that diagnosis alone. The fact that PVT Manning’s lawyers are bringing it up at this level is a clue that there will be negotiations for a lenient sentence and attempts to dismiss some of the charges.
PVT Manning will eventually be convicted of something. The prosecution has literally thrown the book at him and there will be a court martial on some of the charges. He has clearly violated parts of the UCMJ and since this is not an Article 1 trial (rather it is an Article 3 trial) the rules are a little different.
The best thing that can happen to him is time served based not on his culpability, but on the treatment he received in pre-trial confinement. This is a separate issue from his impending CT, but will be there when sentencing comes. Right now the prosecution case seems pretty strong.
Here is a story from WaPo outlining the issues being brought up by the prosecution.
Samara Morgan
@The Moar You Know: Cheney broke the law to conceal the truth from the american people. Manning broke the law to reveal the truth to the American people.
you decide.
burnspbesq
@Egilsson:
“I’m tired of the poisonous jerk-factor here”
That explains why you dialed the PJF up to eleven in your response.
Your views on this matter are wrong and deeply misguided. I completely agree with Axel on that point. I choose to express myself somewhat differently than he does, but that’s a matter of individual choice. Grow a thicker skin, or rethink your position, or both.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: I am well aware of the rules for handling secure data. I was the base COMSEC Officer for 3 years (talk about a thankless job). I was referring only to those airmen/privates who just handle & transmit the data inside the secure facility.
Of course, when I come in with the secure data to be transmitted, I am for a time outside a secure facility (I removed the classified data from the safe in my office & I hand carried it to the secure facility, etc.). Happens all the time.
Now if you take classified data & write it down, you have just unilaterally created another Secret document, which no airman can do. He also got the Secret data (in some form) out of the building & that is also a violation (as I mentioned above).
The Moar You Know
@Samara Morgan: Godamn, you are stubbornly obtuse. Of course he didn’t read up – I doubt the system allowed it.
He read (and downloaded) at his level of classification. If that information was outside of the scope of his immediate work assignment (his “need to know”) that is a violation. A clearance to level X is not authorization to look at anything that is classified at level X unless you also have “need to know”.
It’s a two-part key. Clearance and need to know. I know that you know what a two-part key is.
Samara Morgan
@The Moar You Know: how are the rules enforced? is there a signing protocol? is there password protection? dedicated UIs?
compartment is how i understand need to know.
Manning had NOFORN, EYES, and FOUO.
how could he possibly read up when he already had the highest level for the facility?
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: It’s not an ‘oath’ he broke, it is several statutes of the UCMJ.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
And your point is … ?
The Moar You Know
@Samara Morgan: I did. Breaking the law is breaking the law. They both should be in jail. I don’t give a shit about either one of their motivations.
burnspbesq
@Samara Morgan:
“So you do not think it is A Very Good Thing we are leaving Iraq and A-stan? because Manning helped accomplish that.”
If you believe that, then someday, hopefully many years from now, you can have a parade in his honor when he is finally released from prison.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: Because he’s not supposed to read it, just to transmit it. He has to handle it to transmit it & you can’t touch it unless you have that clearance.
The Moar You Know
@Samara Morgan: Expand your understanding. I’ve just told you how it works. The mechanics of it are not for discussion and are irrelevant anyhow.
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
“Whistleblower” seems to be comparable to ‘snitch’ only on the opposite end of the shit-stick.
Police use informants on a regular basis, allowing the snitch to continue in illegal activity with the understanding that info on greater crimes is forthcoming.
Whistleblowers reverse that dynamic, but I believe the case can be made that Manning, although damaged goods, acted with the greater good in mind.
He had no financial incentive. Although allowing him to escape punishment sets a bad precedent for TRULY sensitive intel, he should receive no more than 2 1/2 years (Ala Scooter Libby) and Obama should then commute the sentence.
Samara Morgan
@Paul in KY: like i said, he violated the star property while in the facility. he wrote down. he should never have had RW media uncontrolled in the scif, right?
Samara Morgan
@The Moar You Know: /sigh
im asking how is tasking enforced?
Manning had all the accesses for the facility.
you’re telling me its an honor system?
lol.
Egilsson
@Amir Khalid:
Amir, I agree that it is likely Manning broke the law, and the sequence traditionally goes accusation -> trial -> conviction -> punishment.
Of course, in Manning’s case, the sequence started with punishment -> first.
But there have to be brave people willing to expose lies and malign government action or we are really in trouble. Not enough people were willing to step forward at the right time with the right information when large-scale lies were told to illegally stampede this country into a war and a mistake of unimaginable proportions. The result was thousands of people dead, and a huge strategic mistake that will harm the US for years to come. How’s that for treason?
And yet here we are, one of the few people who did show courage without any sense of personal gain and he’s treated this way? And I’m immediately called a “fucking douche” by some jerk who probably was one of the original war promoters and who is one of the regular commenters who routinely can only express himself with obscenties. I don’t mind sharp elbows, I use them myself, but just elevate the game a little.
Anyway, I bet we find out that Axelfoley is actually Dick Cheney’s balloon-juice log handle.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: Not sure what you mean by this: ‘he should never have had RW media uncontrolled in the scif, right?’.
Epicurus
Please stop feeding the trolls. It just makes them happy and gives them pause to type out more BS. Hasn’t anyone here seen this person’s sad history? Please. In case I’m not being clear, the person’s initials are “Samara Morgan.” Just. Stop.
Samara Morgan
@Epicurus: hahaha
i might be a troll….
but im also the BJ Cassandra!
tolejasotolejasotolejaso
The Moar You Know
@Samara Morgan: Don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say it was on the honor system.
I am not saying. You have a decent imagination, you can figure out a few different ways to do it, I am sure. Two part key. Level and need to know. Design a system, you’ll come up with something that’s close enough to reality.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: Inside a secure facility where alot of classified data is to be transmitted, there is an aspect of honour involved (IMO). There are probably times when you can sneak peeks at stuff (and you are not supposed to). However, by now, alot of these places have cameras to monitor the employees & your fellow troops are supposed to report any suspicious activity (like taking undue interest in a document, etc.).
Top Secret data has more onerous handling aspects that make it harder to do what Manning did.
Soonergrunt
@Amir Khalid: One can always argue that any time a Soldier ends up dealing with the UCMJ, his (her) leadership has failed.
In this case, I think its pretty much isolated. I can’t imagine any leader I’ve ever had who would’ve dropped the ball like that.
Paul in KY
@Soonergrunt: I wonder if they forced that Sgt Major to retire? Is he/she still on the payroll?
Mnemosyne
Well, at least now we know that Samara has never actually held a job in her life if she thinks that being given a password to a system means you can do anything you want on that system. Though I am looking forward to the day when she gets fired from her first job because she tries to argue that if she was given a password to the system, that means she can download and take home anything she likes from it because they were stupid enough to give her a password.
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: Out of 500,000-some odd documents? He’ll have to convince either a Military Judge (if he elects Judge alone) or a Panel of Members (Jury to the rest of you) that the one or two documents that he knows about are obviously documenting criminal activity, that he knew for a fact nothing would be done (which won’t work–the gunship video was originally in a folder on the share called “JAG” so it was under investigation by somebody) AND that those two or three documents outweigh all the rest of the damage. Whistleblower might work as a defense for a few of the charges. But it won’t work for the vast majority of them.
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: No, he really didn’t. The lack of a physical barrier to looking at things he didn’t need to see to do his job does not constitute a defense to the charge that he exceeded his access by looking at things he didn’t need to look at to do his job.
If you have the experience you have claimed to have in the past, you should know that “need to know” is one of the prongs for authorized access.
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: He was charged over a year ago. Those charges were updated about three months ago.
Benjamin Franklin
@Soonergrunt:
You’d be surprised.
My son has top security clearance (USMC) and says sloth and incompetence are fairly common. The only thing, specifically, he’s told me is on the subject of waste. Servers needing replacement every month (Summer) because they don’t A/C the structure. That kind of sutpidity….
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: He read sideways. That’s as bad as reading up. You should know that if you have the experience you have claimed in the past.
Soonergrunt
@Paul in KY: He was reduced from First Sergeant (E-8) to Sergeant First Class (E-7) and he is still in the service. One presumes that he’ll not be allowed to reenlist or extend enlistment when he hits his retention control point. RCP for an E-7 is 22 years if memory serves (and they haven’t changed it) which would allow him to retire. As an E-8, the highest paygrade he held on active duty and having not been reduced due to UCMJ action.
Personally, I think he should have been court-martialed.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Benjamin Franklin: Except his defense is not making that case, they’re saying ‘he be crazy’.
Soonergrunt
@Benjamin Franklin: Sadly, I wouldn’t be that surprised.
Please thank you son for me, tell him to keep his head down, and remind him to watch out for his buddies.
Benjamin Franklin
@Soonergrunt:
Thanks. I’ll pass on your good will.
Benjamin Franklin
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
It’s probably not a working defense….more of a sentencing remedy.
A ‘nut’ determination will probably hurt him, long term, than a stiff sentence.
Clearly, his gender issues were inflamed by his disappointment in the leadership and the awakening to the real world.
Egilsson
BTW, isn’t Soonergrunt the guy who was posting people’s personal information because he didn’t like what they were saying in a comment on one of ABL’s posts?
That was ridiculous.
Why should I take seriously a blogger who does crap like that – and who then waxes judgemental on Manning?
I understand Soonergrunt obviously didn’t violate any laws, like Manning probably has, but he definitely violated any sense of blogging ethics and abused his role as a frontliner – enough that Cole had to take matters in hand immediately. The difference is more in degree than kind.
So then the issue is, why did Soonergrunt do that? Because he thought it was for the greater good, to expose what he thought was a coordinated sockpuppet campaign. Of course, he was wrong, and what he did was, from a blog commentator-prespective, really irresponsible.
Ironically, the mindset is consistent though – use of authority to punish someone who is challenging your preferred authority by leaking information, and then abusing your access through authority by leaking information to punish someone who is challenging your perferred authority.
burnspbesq
@Egilsson:
Your lack of self-awareness is fairly amazing. You are continuing to do what you are asking others not to do, without providing any reasons why you should be the beneficiary of a double-standard.
Pot/kettle, goose/gander, etc.
burnspbesq
@Egilsson:
Because on this subject, he knows what he’s talking about and you don’t.
burnspbesq
@Benjamin Franklin:
Remind us again about your credentials in psychology and the amount of interview time you’ve had with PFC Manning.
What you’re doing here is no different, and no better, than what Sen. Frist did with respect to Terri Schiavo. It’s deplorable no matter who does it.
Egilsson
I guess I have to agree that when it comes to leaking private information for his own purposes, Soonergrunt does know what he’s talking about.
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
Don’t look now, but you have a fork in you. Done.
Soonergrunt
@Egilsson: How did this straw get up my ass? I don’t remember sitting on a hay bale.
Yutsano
@Soonergrunt: When you can no longer attack the message, attack the messenger.
Egilsson
Are you saying you weren’t the guy who posted someone’s private information a blog post because you didn’t like his comment on another post – that your post was then yanked by Cole?
If you were the guy, that’s how you ended up sitting on a hay bale. If you weren’t, my mistake.
Paul in KY
@Benjamin Franklin: We ACed the hell out of ours back in the early 80s. Of course, this was the USAF, not the poor Marines.
I used to get complaints from my airmen that it was too cold in there. I would say basically ‘The AC is for the machines, not you. Please put on a sweater’.
Egilsson
@Yutsano: Which message do you perceive that I am no longer attacking?
I’ll be happy to clarify once I understand you better.
Paul in KY
@Soonergrunt: Thanks for the info. Boy did he get off easy. Probably had friends/mentors with stars.
Singular
@Egilsson:
The sequence is classic BJ fascist: you state an opinion or make a reasoned argument WITHOUT slating anyone, you get called a “fucking douche”, you respond with another reasoned argument and… you get asked to grow a thicker skin. Yee-ha.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
He’s a traitor, and a knowing one. And the defense knows it, which is why they’re doing a Hail Mary pass of claiming gender dysphoria.
Benjamin Franklin
@Herbal Infusion Bagger:
Then we need more traitors…thank you Wikileaks
Soonergrunt
@Egilsson: I’m saying that what I did on a blog that was not a violation of the law is not in remotely the same class as what PFC Manning is alleged to have done. Not by a long shot. And attempting to create an equivalence is making a straw man argument. I have not attacked you in any way, shape, or form. I deserve similar respect from you as I have given you. I have endeavored to be as even-handed and fair minded as I can on this issue of PFC Manning’s guilt or innocence with respect to the charges he faces.
If my previous, unrelated actions disturb you to the point that my apology for those actions does not meet with your approval, then you may email the blog proprietor to complain. But I don’t think what you’re trying to do here is going to be very effective.
burnspbesq
@Singular:
It appears that you need a refresher course in what constitutes reasoned argument.
@Benjamin Franklin:
Here’s your fork back. Hopefully you can use it to help you structure a rational position on some issue, some day. You haven’t come close yet, and the likelihood that you ever will seems to be approximately zero.
You’re out of your depth here. Try FDL or Kos, where your idiocy won’t stand out so much.
cyntax
@Soonergrunt:
I think it’s pretty endemic, but then I’m connecting it up with a different kind of behavior. To my mind, it’s the other side of the same coin as the people in the CoC who disavow knowledge of what the enlisted are doing in situations like Abu Ghraib. In both cases the higher ups don’t take their responsibility to the enlisted seriously.
In the case of Abu Ghraib, there’s an intentional manipulation of the CoC to the advantage of those higher up, and in Manning’s case his 1st Sgt was just incompetent. But in either case, there’s an inherent lack of respect for the two way street the CoC is meant to represent. Both cases represent something the Army should be concerned about. But then these wars have really made it hard for the Army to retain quality leaders, as Joe Galloway has been pointing out for years.
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
‘Envy’ is one of the seven deadlies, you know. This isn’t your personal turf,
I just figure I have to be twice as smart as you. Fortunately, that is not difficult.
Soonergrunt
@cyntax: I wouldn’t argue that point.
The Moar You Know
Manning should be happy to go to jail for the rest of his life; informational freedom was a cause he was willing to die for, after all.
No? Well, then maybe he didn’t do us all the favors that his self-proclaimed supporters keep insisting that he did.
Benjamin Franklin
@The Moar You Know:
So, Scooter should be hanging from a bridge in Fallujah?
Egilsson
I don’t care about apologies one way or another, because this is not personal. You did what you did and everyone can chose to react to that however they wish. Your little “what did I do reaction” was not honest however. You knew exactly what I was referring to. Heck, should I be worried you are going to research me?
Regardless, there is an equivalence, and it is relevant, and it does provide insight on where you draw the line. You both will abuse your access to private information in support of what you believe is a greater good.
Fundamentally, I’m sick of hearing talk about “traitors” from the same people who probably supported this disasterous war and hammered people who opposed it. A war that I believe harmed America strategically, tactically, financially and morally.
I want to see people in jail who broke the laws on torture, and the people who covered up for the people who broke the law on torture, or who lied to federal judges about evidence. The standards about what we chose to be outraged about is pitiful, and even more pitiful is how it completely changes because Obama is president instead of Bush. I love Obama and I am an O-bot, but in this aspect, he’s been an abysmal failure and is now complicit in the same things folks around here used to be upset about.
Manning did more *good* for this country than all these faux tough guys who are demanding his head as a traitor.
Those are the people who supported this mess, and now they want to hammer this kid? It disgusts me. Convict him if he broke the law, discharge him from the army, and then commute his sentence and give him a medal, because he served this country better than countless war-mongers and war-monger wannabees/apologists.
If it helps, I don’t want to see you imprisoned naked in a small, brightly lit concrete cell under 24 hour surveillance with no contact with your attorney or family before you are even accused of any illegality.
Paul in KY
@cyntax: Good article by Mr. Galloway. If you want to see the military hollowed out, just have them pass the bill that stops the life pensions after 20 & replaces them with a 401K.
The Other Bob
@Samara Morgan:
As wronh as that might be, that does not mean he is a whistleblower or a hero.
LAC
@burnspbesq:
I am with you. As a lawyer I get the zealous defense. I just think it is contemptuous that after being bullied by the likes of Greenwald and his minions that this guy is the original braveheart badass looking out for ammuerica, he is being portrayed as some some unhappy child that, in a addled moment, did a boo-boo.
Soonergrunt
@Egilsson: Somebody snaps at you, you jump on me.
Whatever dude.
AxelFoley
@Samara Morgan:
Damn, I thought you were going with Hitler on that one.
AxelFoley
@Egilsson:
Um, no, asshole. I was against the Iraq War. I knew it was bullshit from jump.
And that “We’d be stuck in Iraq forever if it wasn’t for Manning” line is garbage. Obama was against the war from the muhfuckin’ getty-up. He ALWAYS said under him we’d be as careful getting out of Iraq as we were careless getting into it.
And gee, look, we’re out.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: But how could he read sideways?
he had all those, NOFORN, EYES ONLY, FOUO, according to what i have read.
im sincere.
is there a signing protocol or password protection for tasking?
take the diplo cables–most were CONFIDENTIAL NOFORN or FOUO. SECRET covers the confidential and he had NOFORN and FOUO.
Sure he had no need to access the diplo cables in his tasking.
But would stop anyone in the facility from access them?
i guess im sayin i dont think there was a sideways.
Samara Morgan
@AxelFoley: Obama and Panetta tried damn hard to work out a rewrite of the SOFA. It couldn’t be done.
if you think O was all cheery about handing over 505 bases built with billions of dollars of Murrican taxpayer dollahs, i wanna know what you are smokin’.
The Sauds are pissy as hell about the whole thing.
Iraq planted a boot in America’s ass.
And the Wikileaks drop didnt raise our esteem a nanowafer.
The A-stan drop showed we were NOT WINNING. And praps Afghanis and Murricans didnt pay much attention, but the Paks sure did.
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: It’s pretty obvious that there were no protections in place to limit T-SCIF staff to only their areas of responsibility. Like a simple Active Directory User Group tree. So he could–as evidenced by the fact that he did–read sideways. And as I pointed out, need to know is one of the conditions under which access is authorized.
The fact that those protections were improperly set up (or nonexistent in this case) is irrelevant to the legal case. He had no need to know, so he had no authorization. As I noted earlier, just because the police in your town are incompetent does not make it legal to help yourself to your neighbor’s lawn mower.
AxelFoley
Y’know what? I’m gonna apologize to Egilsson for the name-calling on my part. I should be able to have a discussion and disagreement without resorting to that, so, Egilsson, my apologies.
But, I get sick of folks on the left making excuses for what Manning’s been charged with just because they didn’t like us being in Iraq. I let my Taurean temper get the best of me because I’m tired of all the bullshit we’re bombarded with daily from the GOP, the PL and their media enablers.
I hated that we let Bush lead us into that quagmire. Like many others, I knew it was fucking bullshit.
But, that doesn’t excuse handing over classified info to some online information leaker. And the damn excuses his lawyer is using regarding his sexuality and gender identity. How hard have gays and transgenders fought to escape stereotypes like that? Now, this clown (the lawyer) is giving ammunition to homophobes and the like with this garbage defense.
Samara Morgan
@Paul in KY: well yeah. like signing protocol. if you look at something you have to sign that you did, electronically. or password protection or dedicated UIs for different segments of the DB.
i just wonder how Manning got around that.
i mean theres physical protection and electronic protection.
if all the data in a facility is held at the same level or lower, and all the humans have the same compartments…..i just dont see how Manning could have read up or sideways. He wrote down.
that is how he broke the star property.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: ok, then it was an e-security fail. but i still dont see how he read sideways. he had all the accesses for that facility. just because he wasnt supposed to access a particular file on that particular day, doesnt mean he couldnt be tasked to access it the next day.
he didnt read sideways…that implies he got into a compartment he didnt have clearance for….. he read without tasking authorization.
Egilsson
For my part, I’m sorry for the “Dick Cheney” crack because I didn’t actually think you were Dick Cheney and in many respects that’s more insulting.
It was kind of funny though…
I don’t have much of an opinion about what defenses his lawyers may or may not use. That’s up to them, but I agree that gender identity issues doesn’t indicate loss of mental capacity to me. But he doesn’t have to go down a hero boldly asserting constitutional defenses and damn-the-torpedos. He’s been punished enough already. Anything that shaves any measure of punishment off this poor kid is fine with me.
I wish there had been more Bradley Mannings around earlier. For people to call this kid a traitor in my opinion perverts the meaning of the word. Other people harmed this country, he didn’t.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: what particular piece of data radicalized him, do you think? and did he just run across it while browsing… or did someone show it to him?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
I don’t see what you don’t get about this.
I work at a courthouse. While there are certain file rooms to which I’m not allowed access, there are still files sitting out on people’s desks which I’m not authorized to read, let alone to copy and disseminate. Hell, even the file clerks aren’t allowed to read the documents inside the folders without authorization.
This is where Manning crossed the line- thousands of times over! And this is what makes him a thief who got lucky, and not a whistleblower like Ellsberg- who had the authorization to read every one of the Pentagon Papers that he shared with (amongst others) Neil Sheehan of the NY Times.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: if we could see all the Lamo transcripts, i think we would see that Manning was searching for a conduit that would expose the data.
he wasnt trying to sell the data for cash.
that is conformant with whistleblowing.
and instead Lamo sold him to the feds.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): like i said to sooner, reading sideways implies Manning got into compartment he didnt have access for. He just didnt have access ON THAT DAY.
its just a nit.
Like Daniel Ellsberg, i think Manning is a hero.
history will judge.
Sophia
@Egilsson:
Have we lost the concept of Civil Disobedience? If what you want to do clearly isn’t covered by the whisteblower statute but you still think it’s important that the lies are exposed/action maligned, then a significant part of being brave is understanding that if you get caught your ass is probably going to go to jail. That’s the point. Are you willing to spend a few years in prison in order for this information to get out?
On a different note… Shorter Samara Morgan: HAI GUYS, tell me how to get around military security! kthx
Herbal Infusion Bagger
Because there’s no way our adversaries would think of checking wikileaks for information about how we do our business, of course.
Samara Morgan
@Sophia: lol. i know how already.
why do you think i quit and went back to school full time?
i didnt think i could pass my poly(s) anymore.
@The Moar You Know: you are actually describing a tripartite key. clearance level, compartment, and tasking.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
You’re operating under an assumption that he was authorized to read the contents of files rather than just the titles. Why is that?
Herbal Infusion Bagger
The gender dysphoria defense is a ridiculous punt, given that othe first person treated surgically for gender dysphoria in the UK was a WW2 Spitfire pilot who survived a German PoW camp. Somehow it didn’t impair her effectiveness as military personnel.
So for all the Manning/Assange groupies: not even his defense believes the “patriotic whistleblower” defense will fly: they’re gonna say he wasn’t in his right mind when he did it.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): the title contains the classification level.
Sophia
@Samara Morgan: Already knowing how to do it just makes it dumber that you’re asking the internet.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
Again, why do you think he was authorized to read anything inside the files?
Samara Morgan
@Herbal Infusion Bagger: well, i think it might have something to with Julian and or the fifth.
but IANAL
Egilsson
It’s the whole Letter From The Birmingham Jail concept. You’re right, and I get it.
Then ask yourself, Do you want to be the guy in the cell with MLK, Jr., or do you want to be the deputy sheriff courageously keeping MLK, Jr. in the cell because he did break the law and your job is to keep lawbreakers in jail? Personally, I’d rather go down with MLK, Jr., but facing what Manning has faced, I’d more likely be the deputy sheriff, and so would most people.
Convict Manning, kick him out of the army, and then commute his sentence. I’ll then send him the “Egilsson Award” because I think he served his country more than all these people calling him a traitor. I’m worried this kid will spend the rest of his life in jail.
We needed more people like Manning earlier. It’s a shame they weren’t there. The prospect of the sort of brutality and life imprisonment Manning has faced won’t help the next guy the next time we’re in this situation. And that’s too bad.
Samara Morgan
@Sophia: im not asking the internet anything. im disagreeing with sooner.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Egilsson:
I don’t recall that MLK’s letter described the stakeout of the home of the suspected leader of a bank-robbing mob.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
TTFN…I look forward to reading your additional comments, Samara.
;)
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): ? i do not understand the question.
surely he knew his own clearance level.
he was AUTHORIZED to read them, but he may not have been TASKED to read them.
Sophia
@Egilsson:
I’m more worried that this kid is going to spend the rest of his life, in or out of prison, a broken shell of a human being because he was tortured by his government. I don’t agree with commuting the sentence. We simply can’t encourage people to play the whistleblower in such a reckless and broad fashion.
No, we really didn’t. He was a sad fucked up kid who did a very stupid and irresponsible thing. And we haven’t exactly had a shortage recently of people willing to behave recklessly in support of what they consider “the right thing to do.”
cyntax
@Paul in KY:
That would be… interesting if they did that. I think in the end, they won’t do it; they’re just putting their fiscal austerity plumage on display.
Course I’ve been wrong before…
Egilsson
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
I guess you think you are making some glib point, but I think in reality you haven’t read http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html.
It’s surprisingly applicable to this thread, including the part where MLK talks about “lovingly embracing” the consequences of civil disobedience. I acknowledge that, but what’s happened to Manning far surpasses any reasonable threshold.
I completely disagree with Sophia. It is painfully evident that people who had information the country at large needed to know didn’t say anything, and incalculable harm resulted.
It says something about our priorities when we look at who is in jail and who is getting called a “traitor”.
liberal
@Steve:
A “specific document”?
Do you have any idea how long the Pentagon Papers is?
Admiral_Komack
@Samara Morgan:
Too fucking bad.
I hope you don’t expect me to shed tears for the traitor…because I won’t.
Toodles.
Admiral_Komack
@liberal:
Uhhh…many, many, many specific documents?
:-)
Admiral_Komack
@AxelFoley:
…and Manning and Assange had NOTHING to do with it.
…and that’s no bull…
Sophia
@Egilsson:
I’m not anti-whistleblowing. I’m anti we need more emo headcases to indiscriminately release classified information to a third party. I don’t think what Manning did was the end of the world. I’ve never called him a traitor. But what he did was very stupid. He had no idea what he was handing over.
We didn’t need more people like Manning, we needed people like Colin Powell to show up at the UN for his presentation and instead of providing the dog and pony show, revealing his concerns about the weakness of the evidence and the utterly horrible and predictable consequences of invading Iraq. Powell pulling out a first class shit storm was pretty much the only thing that had a chance of shutting that war down. But Powell decided to play company man, and lent his personal authority and excellent reputation to an exercise in fraud and bad decision making.
Admiral_Komack
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
…yeah, it’s not like we have anything better to do…:-(
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Admiral_Komack:
I actually get a kick out of SM/m_c most of the time. I disagree much more often than not, and I know she pulls stuff out of her ass quite often, but I like her gumption.
And even if she gloated about it a few days ago, she was right about Kain, and not blind squirrel/stopped clock right, either.
And I did have to go to work. I would’ve stuck it out if I could’ve.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
Yeah, I figured I worded it wrongly…Try this on: Why do you think that his job description entailed anything more than fetching files?
Again, a reference that’s close to home (for me, anyway): At the courthouse we’ve got file clerks, who are allowed to handle files only, and we’ve got law clerks, who can handle files as well as read the contents within. What makes you think that Manning’s job was parallel to the law clerks’ rather than the file clerks’?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Egilsson:
Then why is it, do you think, that Manning’s defense seems to be offering a “foreseeable temper tantrum” defense rather than a “whistleblower/civil disobedience/disobeying unlawful orders” defense?
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): ummm…..Manning was an analyst. Didnt you know that?
here is a post from one of ABL’s borg that raises an interesting question.
now….i did usta work behind the doors. i think legitimate state secrets are where, who, and how. That is what i was taught. That prevents compromising the legitimate defense of America.
But screw-ups are not legitimate state secrets.
Like Iraq, like A-stan, like Garani and Haditha and collateral murder.
Like Viet Nam.
Those are fair game for whistleblowers.
And I also believe machiavellian manipulations of other sovereign nations in Ameria’s intersts are not legitimate state secrets. Like a good part of the diplo cables.
and that is what i think.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: I guess it was in an electronic format & he was able to copy it onto some form of media.
Security was pretty lax if he was able to do that.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
because of Assange.
what do you think the 569 days of psyc-torture detention were for? to get Manning to roll over on Assange.
If Julian can get clear of extradition threats, Mannings defense will change.
Samara Morgan
@Paul in KY: yes Paul.
he carried RW media in and out of the facility.
What do you think, you have held clearances, you have protected data….
Which secrets are states permitted to keep?
Paul in KY
@cyntax: I don’t think they will either (hopefully). I’m sure the brass has been letting them know how adversely that would affect military retention.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: He was an E-3 or something like that. I don’t think he was an ‘analyst’.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: If you handle classified material, you have to say all of them. It is not your place (if you aren’t a ‘classifying authority’) to determine which secrets are ‘secrety-secret’ and which should be non-secrets.
As a citizen, I would say only those secrets that would harm the U.S. and/or our allies if they were revealed. I don’t like having a whole lot of secrets.
lol
Manning isn’t a fucking hero. He indiscriminately leaked hundreds of thousands of classified documents purely for the lulz. If he blew the whistle on something, it was *purely by accident*, not by design.
If I simply dumped out the IP addresses and email addresses of everyone posting here, would everyone praise me as a whistleblower because it revealed that a concern trolls works at the RNC?
Or would you fail to recognize my brilliance and still be pissed that I posted everyone’s information?
Admiral_Komack
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
‘Cause…they got nothin’…and they know it.
Admiral_Komack
@lol:
I’m just answering your question.
You wouldn’t be a whistleblower…and EVERYBODY would be pissed.
Egilsson
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Beats me, I don’t practice law using the UCMJ. Presumably his lawyers have a strategy on what they think will result in the least amount of risk for their client. He doesn’t need to burn himself at a stake for principles. If that’s the required standard, why aren’t you doing it in support of whatever your principles are?
This kid has already done more good for no personal gain and at enormous personal risk than all these people who call him traitor or whatever. If he wants to claim he’s an alien, or the 5000 year old reincarnation of some HP Lovecraft deity, I don’t care.
Benjamin Franklin
@LAC:
So, Scooter should be hanging from a bridge in Fallujah?
I just want your opinion, as a ‘lawyer’.
Samara Morgan
@Paul in KY: Paul I WAS TRAINED.
who, how, where.
Coveringup screw-ups is a not a reason for classifying.
The american electorate deserves to know when theres a screw-up.
….protecting the US and its allies– from what? justice?
Samara Morgan
@Paul in KY: /sigh
Manning was an all-source intelligence analyst.
Do you know what that means? i sure do.
It means he could look at any product, DC to Daylight, and ALL SOURCE; OPINT, SIGINT, ELINT, COMMINT, etc.
Samara Morgan
sooner, what is your opinion?
What secrets are permissible for a state to keep?
im sayin’ who, how, where.
Samara Morgan
Let us take a concrete example from the diplo cables.
US companies sanctioned by (and possibly paid by by US agencies) obtained mastercards for Mossad agents that used the cards in executing an assassination.
a lot of juicers deplore al-Awlaki’s assassination.
what is the difference between the assassination of a US citizen in another country and the proxy assassination of a citizen of another nation by our ally Israel?
Benjamin Franklin
Nice piece in Consortium…..http://consortiumnews.com/2011/12/21/pvt-manning-and-the-imperative-of-truth/
Samara Morgan
@Benjamin Franklin: nice. but just one correction.
it is the military, the rules and laws that govern our armed services.
that is why we need whistleblowers– the powers that be investigated Gharani, Camp No, Haditha, the Iraq Rape Squad, etc, etc.
Manning is not an “object lesson” …but i do think they were trying to get him to roll over on Assange.
Obama is trying to slow the NLS collapse of the American Security State long enough to get re-elected.
Hes got my support.
none of this stuff happens in a vacuum. lemme ax you….do you really wanna see Bibi’s kepler trigo matrix for launching on Iran while he still can?
Samara Morgan
IMMINT.
i forgot IMMINT.
>:(
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: The definition of the ‘harm’ is above my pay grade ;-)
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: I find it hard to believe he was supposed to read them & make analytical judgements.
They don’t let E-3s do that. I would expect a senior enlisted or an officer to do that.
Samara Morgan
@Paul in KY: data fusion.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
Really?
War in Iraq, State Department efforts to get the Japanese whaling fleet out of Antarctic calving waters…That’s some, uhm, interesting fusion.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): data fusion operates on intel fusion and sensor fusion.
the diplo cables are not part of that for the most part.
They do comprise a coherent effort to bully, bribe, and scam other sovereign nations into acting in America’s interests rather than their own.
what are legitimate state secrets, in your opinion?
Benjamin Franklin
I don’t have an answer, except to say that the mere embarassment of diplomats does not qualify/
Suffern ACE
So what to diplomats of other countries do? You could substitute any country for “America” in that sentence.
Benjamin Franklin
I can’t speak for her, but I would say ‘yes’ . But we do purport to be better than other countries, n’est pas?
Suffern ACE
@Benjamin Franklin: Most countries purport the same.