Jayne Cobb, fictional sociopath.
Hell, I’ll kill a man in a fair fight… or if I think he’s gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there’s a woman, or if I’m gettin’ paid – mostly only when I’m gettin’ paid.
Some idiot in Florida, via TNC.
Police say [George] Zimmerman called police around 7:30 p.m. on Feb. 26 to report a suspicious person. The dispatcher told him to wait for patrol officers. At one point, Zimmerman followed the teen, stepped out of the car and they began to fight, Lee said.
“When dispatchers told him not to do anything, it was just a recommendation,” Lee said. “There is evidence that George Zimmerman acted in self-defense.”
He would not say what the evidence was.
Why Zimmerman got out of the car and what led to the altercation are still unknown. Zimmerman, who had a concealed weapons permit, carried a black Kel Tek 9mm semi-automatic pistol.
Martin’s pockets contained $22, Skittles candy and a can of iced tea when he died, police said. The family filed a lawsuit to demand recordings of the conversation between Zimmerman and the police dispatcher.
No charges though, because following a kid with your car, then getting out and shooting him qualifies as self-defense in Florida. Also, too, completely unrelated to anything in the story, guess who was white and who was black, and which of the two has a history of arrest for violent behavior.
BigSouthern
But hey, it’s morning in post-racial America!
Rafer Janders
Please. Do you know what MacGyver could have done with $22, a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea? That was a deadly weapon waiting to happen!
FedSec
OT: Adam Baldwin is dead to me.
Martin
That $22 proves he was a criminal. How the fuck does a black teenager get $22 unless he was selling crack, robbing white people, or pimping out Georgetown law students?
redshirt
@FedSec: What happened?
Remember him in “Independence Day”? I didn’t. He’s got a fairly substantial role.
Schlemizel
lets have more ‘shot first ask later’ laws passed, this is working as planned.
Hugh
Horrible.
GregB
More proof that white people with guns are under attack in Obama’s America.
Disgusting.
BigSouthern
And while the circumstances and results aren’t exactly the same, it’s hard to read this and not think of Emmitt Till.
This kid (have you seen the pictures? He looked like he still hadn’t wielded his first razor) was stepping out of his place and had to be corrected. Beyond being simply stupid, this was a vicious act of individual racism followed up by the institutional act of racism of the police not giving a shit. If Martin had shot Zimmerman in the same manner there’s no way that kid wouldn’t be locked away in a cell right now.
It’s also a perfect, tragic intersection of our growing police state with our gun totem/fetish with our still unresolved racism. I hope that the family is able to get some action moving against Zimmerman, preferably criminal charges, because the man does not need to be on the streets.
jeffreyw
comment test 123
Betty Cracker
The so-called “Stand Your Ground” law has resulted in a number of senseless tragedies hereabouts. The gist of it is that gun-packers (and they are legion in Florida) aren’t required to take steps to avoid a confrontation before unloading the magazine into an unarmed opponent. They just have to feel threatened.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
Unreal. But not unbelievable when you pass laws that guarantee something like this will happen. And give angry aggressive assholes a gun and even a molecule of authority.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Has the investigation concluded without charges? I haven’t followed it to that point. Which is not to say the FL self defense statute isn’t overly broad – it is. I could make a pretty strong argument for indicting Zimmerman,even with the defense, but I’m not licensed in FL.* All the way around, it sucks however, and TNC has a point that it’s all too familiar.
*In addition, I haven’t fully researched that statute to determine whether it provides an affirmative defense, to be proven after charging or will preclude a charge if the LEO and prosecutorial decision is made that the events constitute self defense.
Fraking whackjobs...
When I lived in Florida with my brother, a buddy of his was a sergeant in the local county police. The sergeant told my brother that if he ever had a thief in his house, he should shoot the thief *before* the thief had a chance to turn around – always shoot them in the front of their body, not the back. Of course, then my brother was to call the sergeant directly for help.
Even that sergeant, though, made it very, very clear that once that thief got out of the house, he was NOT to be chased. One could justify acting in self-defense in your own home, but chasing after somebody who is no longer a threat to you is not self-defense – it is retribution or retaliation, something that is reserved for the state.
After I moved from Florida, though, I believe a law was passed giving homeowners much more leeway in killing somebody that had already left their house.
scav
Really odd how protecting your so-called turf with gunfire is gang related violence in certain areas and legitimate self-defense by the neighborhood watch in others.
Ash Can
@Betty Cracker: It’s great, isn’t it? “Let’s condone the use of lethal force on the basis of something that’s impossible to prove or disprove. What could possibly go wrong?”
PWL
I don’t see how this could be “self-defense” when it’s a 9mm pistol vs fists. But then this is the South. Where “self-defense” means “white person shooting a non-white.”
gnomedad
@Fraking whackjobs…:
How does that work, again?
Cluttered Mind
This reeks of the Uncle Jimbo defense. “He’s coming right for us!” What a tragedy.
Jay in Oregon
@Betty Cracker:
I’d never heard of such a fucked-up law before.
And I presume that if the fuckheaded white guy were unarmed and hassling an armed young black man—who then felt threatened and shot the aforementioned fuckheaded white guy—that he would be justified under the provisions of this law, right?
Right?
C’mon, why’s everyone laughing?
Martin
I wonder at what point these conceal carry laws trigger a federal civil rights issue? The state may be okay with stand your ground laws for gun owners, but the entirety of the civil rights movement was convincing minorities to stand up to whites who were hiding behind any of a variety of stand your ground laws. None of that stopped the feds from intervening.
Jay in Oregon
@gnomedad:
He means, shooting the intruder while he’s facing you, not when he’s facing away from you. It’s more credible that you were facing imminent threat.
(And yes, that logic is only slightly less tortured than Uncle Jimbo’s “He’s coming right at us!”)
fan
Where’s Mal when we need him?
Woodrowfan
@gnomedad:
I think it means if you shoot then in the back, then they were leaving and therefore you were not “threatened.”
St. Trinian's grad
Thanks for posting on this–news of this didn’t come out till All-Star Weekend in Orlando was over. As the Field Negro blog says, 14 days and counting. Now the Sanford police chief has passed this off to the state attorney’s office. Given FL’s idiotic ‘shoot first, ask questions later, ‘cuz I was scared’ law, who knows if criminal charges can be brought.
Commenting at Ballon Juice since 1937
I believe shooting someone because you felt anxious (due to your rampant racist bigotry) is legal in Florida.
gnomedad
@Jay in Oregon:
But before he has “a chance to turn around”. Got it.
Party Pooper
Sorry to spoil your fun, guys, but the killer was Latino, not white. Look at his mugshot.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
This puts gun carriers on a par in some ways with the police. Juries almost always lean toward a police officer who claims that he felt threatened, no matter what the circumstances. For example, a recent California case where a guy was pointing a water hose nozzle at the cops. They thought it was a gun, felt threatened, shot the guy to death.
quannlace
Okay, I know this is Florida, but how does a guy with a arrest record for violent behavior manage to get a carry permit?
Martin
FWIW, I have no desire to own a gun here in CA. But if I found myself relocated to Florida or Texas or Arizona, or similar state, I’d buy one immediately, and one for my wife (she likes shooting, in fact). I suspect there are others like me.
Ultimately this is nothing more than a marketing campaign by the NRA on behalf of gun companies. And the more this kind of thing happens, the more sales get boosted.
Martin
@quannlace:
You shouldn’t answer the question before you ask the question. It’s rude.
Trakker
This happened February 26 and still no charges have been filed and as far as I know the shooter is still walking free…all this in the South in 2012.
A few days ago USA Today reported that 12 states “are considering laws that would eliminate requirements that residents obtain permits to carry concealed weapons.”
Andrew Arulanandam, policy director for the National Rifle Association’s Institute for Legislative Action, which supports these legislative efforts, was quoted, “Our viewpoint is, a good person will always be a good person,” he said. “They don’t need a license to be a good person.”
Shorter NRA: gun owners, by definition, are good people and would never commit illegal acts. The loved ones of those shot by gun owners might vehemently disagree.
Chris
@Martin:
My New Yorker cousin who relocated to North Carolina a couple years ago said something similar last time I saw him, to the effect that “now that I’m living in a red state, I actually do want a gun.” Don’t know if he actually went through with it, but I wouldn’t blame him if he had.
Hawes
You know, Jayne Cobb lived on the edges of civilization, a dystopian wasteland of alternating lawlessness and random authoritarianism.
So, you know, Florida.
rlrr
@quannlace:
I think you answered your own question.
Cassidy
I believe this might have been a back of the mind kind of outcome. Police/ Sheriff Dept’s have been slashing their budgets left and right. If you can’t put cops on the street, howsabout some armed douchebags?
Lex
Carrying Skittles and tea while black is now a capital offense in Florida. Good to know.
Cassidy
But this is where the NRA wins the argument. You can’t take away the rights of lawful citizens based on the action of a minority. And the whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing.
Yutsano
@Hawes: Just don’t diss the hat.
Jay in Oregon
@Hawes:
Jayne Cobb did have some redeeming qualities. He apparently sends a portion of his ill-gotten funds back to support his family.
I hope that, if Firefly hadn’t been killed in its infancy, we would have seen more of Jayne’s biological family and maybe seen him become part of the “family” on the ship.
aretino
This shows why I don’t trust studies claiming to show that gun ownership prevents crime. In those studies, this would be counted in the “gun prevented crime” column instead of the “gun used to commit crime” column.
handy
@Trakker:
You’re missing an adjective in that first clause. Here lemme help.
Martin
@Cassidy:
But it’s also where the NRA loses the argument by fighting any and all regulation of the industry and gun owners. Provide reasonable controls around the industry and license issuance, and their position regarding the individual gets more reasonable. A national database tracing guns to owners, with the responsibility falling on the owner to fail to report a stolen, missing, or sold weapon doesn’t infringe on anyone’s rights, yet the NRA would blow a fucking gasket if it was even suggested. Hell, we have those laws for cars, but heaven forbid we do it for guns.
The Other Bob
If someone is in my home to steal my widescreen, they can have it. As long as they stay away from my family, I have no desire to have the death of a robber on my conscience.
I will pay the deductable on my insurance. Why would anyone defend stupid replaceable crap with violence?
ruemara
I guess you guys don’t know, but when you’re flagged for pvp, you’re fair game. Black people are always flagged. But the corpse run is a bitch.
Hey, I have 2 stupid brothers and live in a rural cali town. I have to joke or I won’t have the will to keep trying in this godforsaken country.
gttim
I live in Georgia. We have some cities with laws that you are required to carry a gun! Florida ain’t got nothin’ on us!
jncc
Oh my god, a black pistol?
Those things are always bad.
The Other Bob
@Martin:
Let’s take up a collection and buy an NRA membership for every member of the black panther party. Imagine if a bunch of black dudes showed uo to demand their right to own guns. That would change the debate a bit I bet.
Zifnab
@The Other Bob:
Cause if you let’m steal your flat screen, pretty son dey be comin’ after yo white womenz.
ppcli
From the Miami Herald article:
“According to Sanford police Capt. Robert O’Connor, Zimmerman has received numerous death threats.”
Not at all: it’s just that a lot of people have told him they are going to get a gun and follow him in their SUV’s whenever he walks to the 7-11 for snacks. And then they’ll get out and confront him.
What’s threatening about that?
kc
That’s horrible. Sounds like it’s open season on black kids in Florida. Wingnuts from all over the country will be traipsing down there with their guns . . .
Zifnab
@The Other Bob:
I can already see the headlines.
“23 urban youths were shot while entering the Whitey McWhiterson meeting hall. Witnesses, mostly elderly milquetoast southern Republicans, claim the shooting was in self-defense.”
Comrade Dread
So they’re saying that all criminal enterprises should relocate to Florida to take advantage of their very liberal murder laws?
“Yeah, officer, I did put two into Johnny’s back here, but I thought he had a gun sticking out of his ass. The cement shoes were his own choice. He was trying to start a new fashion line.”
Paul in KY
@jncc: I believe a ‘Kel Tek’ is what we weapons aficiandos call a ‘piece of crap’.
Unfortunately, if it doesn’t jam, a piece-of-crap gun will kill you just like a $1,000 Kimber.
I am so sorry for the parents/relatives of the young man. Hope they are able to get the cowboy into a trial & are able to sue the shit out of somebody in power.
Trakker
@Cassidy:
Rights are limited by law all the time. Somehow I don’t think the Founding Fathers had the same vision of this right as the NRA.
Cassidy
@Martin: My paragraph was shorter. That’s how they win. :) There is no reasoning with that side on this issue.
Cassidy
@Trakker: Good luck with that argument. It hasn’t worked so far, but I applaud the effort to keep trying.
FedSec
@redshirt: He’s a Repub campaigning for Rmoney. I fell in love with him when he did My Bodyguard and was still in love when he did Independence Day. Now, not so much.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Other Bob:
This happened in California in the late 60’s. Ronald Reagan, of all people, was calling for gun control, because Black Panthers were exercising their 2nd Amendment rights in the open in Sacramento.
Amazing, that.
NCSteve
@Rafer Janders: Read the comments in the Florida paper at the link, did you?
trollhattan
Is there any possibility of the feds opening a case
if, sorry, when the locals and state take a pass on prosecuting the killer?redshirt
@FedSec: Thank you. Yep, he’s on The List. Not the good one.
I certainly can separate actors from their personal opinions, and enjoy their work (if they’re good – funny how once you go conservative you no longer produce good work). But it sure makes me lose whatever respect I might have had for them.
The Ancient Randonneur
If I’m a young black man the lesson I learn from this is to carry a firearm and any time some old white dude jumps out of his car and starts screaming at me, just shoot him. Of course, I suspect the law of self defense would be applied differently. Oh my, am I being too cynical? Not for one second.
Rafer Janders
@NCSteve:
No, I know enough not to put myself through that.
jncc
I was making fun of the dumbasses who get uptight about “black” guns just like the folks who are against something they call “assault” weapons.
(By the way, don’t be too hard on Kel-tecs. They are pretty reliable. I put hundreds of rounds through one a few years ago with nary a jam. And Kel-tecs new KSG shotgun is amazing.)
trollhattan
@The Ancient Randonneur:
Mysteriously, you won’t even survive the squad car ride to the station for “questioning.”
Meg
@Tim F. You left out the part that Zimmerman found the kid suspicious because he was a black kid visiting this gated community, whose inhabitants are mostly white.
trollhattan
Has Herr Ole Perfesser weighed in on whether this is further proof that Moar Gunz would solve any problems? (Not that he’d consider this a “problem” per se.) I’ll add that, to my knowledge, Her Ole Perfesser und Frau Doktor Ole Perfesser have no kids.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017727656_childshooting12m.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017572191_bremerton23m.html
celticdragonchick
@PWL:
I don’t think it is in this case. However, speaking as a transgendered woman who has been threatened with bodily harm several times, I am not going to feel bad about drawing a handgun if somebody is trying to assault me with their fists.
Again, that really doesn’t seem to be a factor here. Zimmermann was looking for trouble.
celticdragonchick
@Villago Delenda Est:
Exactly. Gun control has historically been used as a social control on African Americans who were getting “uppity”.
trollhattan
@celticdragonchick:
One article I read has Zimmerman in school as a criminal justice major (despite the previous assaulting-an-officer beef).
And this is why police departments do psychological screening.
celticdragonchick
@trollhattan:
Indeed. The guy sounds like a real piece of work.
Yevgraf
He’s destined for a bright future in law enforcement.
Conservative, a killer of them coloreds, and a liar, all rolled up into one.
Q. Q. Moar
@FedSec:
Ah, so Adam Baldwin is just as smart as he looks.
Rudi
This case isn’t over yet. A repo man tried to get away with a similar act, but the Florida legal system is sending him to prison for manslaughter.
http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2012/mar/01/15/jurors-in-tow-owner-trial-ask-about-murder-definit-ar-364448/
Skittles are just as bad as an illegally parked car…
Paul in KY
@jncc: I was being too harsh on the Kel Tek brand. Actually, I had never heard of it. It just sounded Taurusy.
Glad yours is working fine.
rikyrah
this young man was MURDERED for Walking While Black.
Cassidy
@Paul in KY: You might have been thinking Hi Point.
ruemara
It’s even worse. The young man in question pulled his Dad from a burning building when he was 9. He was a hero and a better man at 17 than Zimmerman is at 28.
Mnemosyne
@Party Pooper:
His last name is Zimmerman. I suppose he could be part Latino, but you’ll have to come up with something more than “you can tell he’s Latino just by looking at him!”
When you see a picture of Cliff Curtis, is your first thought, “Hey, that guy’s Maori”?
LongHairedWeirdo
Doesn’t Florida have a “stand your ground” law that might prevent prosecution in this very situation?
The first time I heard this story, that was the first thing I pondered – was whether it was one of those states that did not include a duty to retreat if one could do so safely.
See, the standard used to be, if you could walk away from a situation, safely, you did not have any right to use force to protect yourself. (Note the emphasis on “safely”. This is an important caveat!) I’ve heard this called a “duty to retreat” and IIRC, one place it didn’t apply was your home (e.g., you didn’t have to flee an armed burglar).
The “Stand your ground”/”Make my day” laws tried to change that, and remove the duty to retreat in other places.
This shooting (and/or the lack of prosecution) might be due to those laws.
asiangrrlMN
My state is coming close to passing the same damn law (stand tough, Governor Dayton). I predict the same damn results if we do. No need to retreat? It makes me want to punch someone in the neck, a la Cole.
Corner Stone
@asiangrrlMN:
Do you object to the Castle Doctrine?
Anne Laurie
@Jay in Oregon:
Yeah, I was looking forward to what might’ve developed between Rev. Book and Jayne, after Jayne’s befuddled “But what if you’ve done really, REALLY bad things?… “ questions. I think Whedon & his writers were presenting Jayne, not as a sociopath (sorry, Tim) but as the predictable result of growing up at the bottom of the authoritarian pyramid in a broken dystopia. If the poor will always be with us, so will the trailer-park trash, dumb and dangerous and broken. In the late 1960s, Rodenberry sold Star Trek as “Wagon Train with spaceships”; Whedon could’ve sold Firefly as “Breaking Bad or Deadwood with FTL vehicles”.