Young, affluent, digital types are as a class among the most deeply disingenuous and full of shit people on earth. If you need to prove that, this Daniel Tosh rape joke thing may be the perfect example.
To recap: Daniel Tosh made an offensive, threatening rape joke to a member of the audience. People got mad, and good for them. Then Louis CK defended him, which was wrong. People didn’t get mad. They came up with long, bizarre, convoluted rationalizations for why they shouldn’t get mad. There’s been tons of justifications of CK on blogs and comments and Twitter and Facebook. And the whole reason for the difference is that the world is currently gargling Louis CK’s testicles, not for any genuine political reason. The exact same thing happened when the world went apeshit about Tracy Morgan’s homophobia and Louis CK defended him. It’s pure hypocrisy and it’s fucked.
Well, you know what? I think Louis CK is funny, too. But he’s just as wrong as everyone else defending Daniel Tosh. These bizarre, convoluted rationalizations are just people struggling to reconcile their politics and their tastes and choosing taste. You could take this Lindy West post at Jezebel, who argues that Louis CK’s rape humor can be excused because, um, I guess because she thinks he’s a good dude. It’s a particularly weak entry, but it’s just one of a whole genre.
Please, understand: your political convictions mean nothing if you aren’t willing to sacrifice for them. And there is no sacrifice for the vast majority of people going after Daniel Tosh because they never liked him in the first place. Meanwhile, there’s a lot to sacrifice in criticizing Louis CK, considering that they like him and his show. But that’s what convictions are, you know? Sometimes, you have to stand for something. It’s cool to like Louis CK, it isn’t cool to like Daniel Tosh, and so the Twitterati judge them accordingly. Which is a perfect example of why that whole class of people should be forced onto an ice floe and pushed out to sea.
hitchhiker
The Onion got it right, as usual.
a titch more here
Rape joke peeps, consider this . . . studies have show that ACTUAL rapists — men who think it’s their right to penetrate any hole that calls to them, with or without the consent of their target — believe 100% that ALL men do it, and they just don’t talk about it.
The comedian delivering a rape joke is handing out a permission slip to those men. Wink, wink, ha ha, you’re normal, we all really get it.
Go forth and ruin someone’s life.
Ha ha.
Not.
Cacti
It’s the same mindset that thinks it’s edgy and ironic to tell n*gger jokes.
No, it’s just racist. You’re not a special snowflake.
Hunter Gathers
People in the same line of work tend to stick up for their fellow co-workers. People stuck up for Michael Richards when he went on that bizarre racist rant a few years ago, and like clockwork, Daniel Tosh is being defended by his fellow comedians. Shit like this happens all the time. It’s fucking tribal.
Not that I agree with Louis CK for defending Tosh (whom I had never heard of until this blew up) , or all the other times dochebags have defended their fellow douchebags, but I know where it comes from. Their tribe was threatened, and they responded in kind. Doesn’t make it right. It just makes all of them fucking douchebags.
lol
Lindy West’s point is that the victims shouldn’t be the punchline. Or as she put it in all caps so that anyone could understand the point she was making: “Easy shortcut: DO NOT MAKE RAPE VICTIMS THE BUTT OF THE JOKE.”
That’s why she gives Louis CK a pass for his rape jokes. The joke isn’t about the victim; it’s about the fucked up mentality that leads to it.
Not terribly hard to grasp.
This is all separate from his defense of Tosh more recently though, which is ill advised. But it’s almost as if context matters and good will builds trust that you’re not a misogynistic asshole. It’s almost as if the same words spoken by different people can mean different things.
Both Sides Do It
That Jezebel column is just spot fucking on, and refusing to engage in the multiple arguments presented distinguishing Tosh’s stuff from rape jokes that work to diminish rather to expand rape culture is just dumb
“Affluent liberals be actin’ hypocritical” can be useful, but in a lot of cases it’s not. This is one where it’s not.
cmorenc
I must be a real hick from the sticks, because even with the internet tubes available where I live I’ve never heard of either Daniel Tosh or Louis CK. Apparently, from Freddie’s post kicking off this thread, I’m much the better for being too much of a rube to have endured either of these people.
PZ
I fail to see what policing Louis CK will do. It reminds me of that Glenn Greenwald column where he cited an article claiming US and Israeli intelligence services were killing Iranian scientists and one of his responses was “how will Kevin Drum and Scott Lemieux react.” CK is a comedian. He isn’t going to go after a fellow comedian (even if that comedian is Daniel Tosh) for offensive material because he doesn’t want other comedians going after him for offensive material. It’s just like you don’t see film directors saying “that movie sucked” because they might have to kiss the butt of some of those people involved in that movie one day.
What Daniel Tosh said was wrong and offensive. If people want to have a petition to fire him from Comedy Central, tell me where to sign. However, I don’t need Louis CK to tell me he what Tosh said was wrong and offensive.
Spiffy McBang
I never minded Louis CK’s rape jokes (well, joke, only heard one) because it wasn’t a “rape is funny” joke. It was mocking, or at least that’s how I took it. I don’t know why West couldn’t just say that. Tosh literally did “rape is funny”. He should, and hopefully will, get bashed to the ends of the earth for it.
Spiffy McBang
@PZ: We don’t need CK to tell us Tosh was wrong. But he could just not say anything. If no comedians came to Tosh’s defense, that in and of itself would be a significant statement.
Nutella
It’s not that Tosh told a rape joke that’s so objectionable. This is what happened:
1. Tosh tells rape joke.
2. Woman in audience objects to it.
3. Tosh urges the rest of the audience to gang-rape her right there.
#1 was objectionable. #3 was completely, totally, utterly disgusting and violent. Decent people should shun anyone who makes a threat like that.
Nemo_N
Does Hitchens fall into this category?
Comrade Luke
@Nutella:
What was #2?
AA+ Bonds
Fuck all of ’em.
PZ
@Spiffy McBang: And those comedians may need to kiss Daniel Tosh’s ass one day. Not saying it’s right but that’s how it is. You can’t buy a house with indie hipster cred.
JordanRules
BJ comment squad on point as usual. Really good, thought-provoking comments so far.
…on the day the Freeh report is released no less
Corey
I’m not exactly sure how you got from “defending rape jokes” to your boilerplate cool kid Twitterati nonsense, but everything always comes back to you and your personal axe grinding, doesn’t it?
Nutella
@Comrade Luke:
#2 was the woman in the audience shouting out an objection to the joke.
AA+ Bonds
Fucking white male patriarchy bullshit and Louis CK has been toasted by liberals so desperately (because who else, if not this mumbling asshole? Colbert? Stewart? please, says the soy-swirler) that he figures everyone will overlook his ladder-climbing glad-handing bullshit for rape-chucklers and gay-bashers
AA+ Bonds
Do you know what’s fucking funny to me? Wall Street, literally on fire
It’s a high bar to set, but until people start doing so, all we’re going to get is shit about how this bald creep can’t take care of his kid
suzanne
I concur with West about how to joke about rape vs. how to joke about rape victims. I haven’t been following this story closely (though I have enjoyed Tosh.0 on occasion, but that shit’s over now).
Ugh.
Caz
Right on!!!
Which is why I’m so disappointed that 99% of the time the posters and commenters on this blog will support a liberal, like Obama, based on politics even though it goes against what they claim are their convictions, like adherence to the Constitution.
I’ll say it again. If you support the Constitution, then you cannot support Obama’s execution of citizens in his sole discretion without due process or judicial review. By supporting this action and precedent by Obama, you have sacrificed your convictions for political loyalty.
According to this post, you ought to sacrifice your political loyalty in favor of your convictions.
I see it far too often by both R’s and D’s. On here, it is the D’s among you (virtually all of you) who aren’t willing to sacrifice your loyalty to the party for what you know in your heart and mind is a conviction that should be upheld above all else.
What are politicians but a bunch of people, strangers, who generally seek nothing more than their own power struggle, and will sell any of us out if it benefits them. They are generally a bunch of gutless, cowardly, convictionless hacks, and when someone sacrifices their own convictions and the rule of law to favor some politician or political party, that person is no better than the hack politician in the first place.
On this blog, I see masses of people who don’t follow the concepts presented in this post, and that is a shame. This nation is doomed unless people start acting in accordance with the tenor of this post.
So while I salute you on this post, there is clearly a ton of work to be done if we are to reach that point B. Our current point A is light years away from point B, but we need to start somewhere.
MattR
When I hear that Louis CK defended Tosh, I expected to hear some sort of justification for why the joke was OK or the woman in the audience was wrong or at least some reference to the actual incident. But all he did was offer some generic support to a peer going through a rough patch.
SquareSquid
I’m a woman and a comedian professionally (specifically, I work in clown/bouffon theater, so physical comedy with an intellectual edge), and I like to both watch and create comedy that is often crude and shocking when it is done WELL. It is very difficult work, and I think guys like Daniel Tosh are fucking hacks. I pretty much think that people can make jokes about anything. The flipside of that coin is that some topics are remarkably difficult to make GOOD jokes about (like, say, genocide, rape, abuse), and if you’re going to tread in that territory, you have to be really goddamn smart, and carefully craft the joke with a specific purpose. My issue with what Tosh did, is that he didn’t make a joke, so much as make a nasty threat because his fee-fees were hurt, and in addition to being offensive as hell and a shitty thing to do to that girl, it was also, importantly, BAD COMEDY. He totally 100% should apologize for being a misogynistic prick, but at the end of the day, I’m willing to bet Daniel Tosh would actually get upset if people just told him he was a shitty comedian, rather than a shitty person. The latter is something he seems to be proud of anyway.
Lindy West makes an effective, convoluted argument about how some rape jokes can actually be funny, and you write her entire opinion off because she defends CK in the wrong manner (sadly). The Louis CK joke works not because of historical context – because of his public persona, his proven past of “never letting the oppressors win,” his “good-guy cred” – but simply because it’s just so damn tautological. The joke is, literally, “rape is never permissible unless it fulfills the literal definition of ‘rape’,” which is patently and succinctly absurd; therein lies the hilarity (and it is a really damn good joke). CK’s joke is funny because it states exactly what IS fucked up about rape, and by being so to the point, it highlights the absurdity of defending rapists. Part of his joke is in the timing of it when performed, where he takes a really long pause after saying the joke and looks slightly befuddled. The audience laughs at the comedian for playing an idiot, not at rape victims.
It’s worth mentioning that outrage pieces are the 24-hour news cycle’s bread and butter. The comedy club, Daniel Tosh, and the networks/outlets feigning offense are all taking this to the bank. Recall that the Laugh Factory is the same club where Michael Richards went off the rails. And while that is in no way comparable to what Tosh said, it gives you a sense of how lucrative these stories are for the parties involved.
Martin
@MattR:
All comedians go too far now and then. It’s just the nature of the profession – pushing the line is what makes comedy work. Comedians understand that – so it’s not uncommon for them to support each other when these things happen.
SquareSquid
Also, yeah, these comedian leaping to Tosh’s defense are generally just avoiding the fact that Tosh wasn’t making a joke: he was being an asshole and a shitty comedian. Sigh. This industry blows most of the time, and I can’t even imagine what would happen if a mainstream comedian DID condemn him (cries of “Judas” echoing through the Twittersphere, blacklisted everywhere, trust me), but you have no idea how many great backstage conversations I’ve overheard between comics make reasonable and intensely nuanced arguments about why things are offensive and the intricacies of crafting jokes around sensitive topics.
MattR
@Martin: Of course. I liken it to an athlete supporting a teammate after they make a crucial error. They aren’t defending the actual mistake. They are just trying to keep their teammate’s head up and prevent it from destroying their confidence.
NotMax
You lost me with
Louis C.K. wouldn’t recognize funny if it ran up and French-kissed him.
His winning awards for comedy writing has always struck me as creatively dissonant, kind of like if Al Capone had won awards for excellence in distilling.
duck-billed placelot
@lol: +1. Louis CK might not be a perfect ally, but he’s a smart comedian who usually works against power (just saw a clip of him on a Jay Leno show [eek] in which Leno asks him, ‘so you think women are better than men?’ and LCK responds, ‘no, i don’t think women are better than men, but men are definitely worse.’ and does a comedic riff on the classic Atwood line. Excellent, excellent response for that asshat Leno.). So when he makes a poor choice/mistake, like supporting Tosh’s rape threat, I’m inclined to feel disappointed, not enraged.
Spaghetti Lee
I’ll be one of those assholes, I guess. Real-life tragedy has been fodder for onstage comedy long before the likes of Daniel Tosh was around, and I don’t think the latter causes the former, either. Does anyone really think that the kind of scumbag who would actually rape a person needs an “excuse” from some random comedian?
Now, I personally didn’t find this joke funny. And I do think the second thing he did, tell the woman in the audience that maybe she should be raped-that was over the line. Because once you do that, you’re not dealing with jokes and the way they abstract reality. You’re dealing with an actual person. Not cool and not funny. Also, I think anyone who doesn’t find this funny because they think rape jokes are never funny has every right to think that. Everybody has the right to do that, and I won’t judge. And maybe this makes me a callous jerk, but by God, I’ve seen this happen so much. Some entertainer says something stupid and a shitstorm erupts. Bloggers leap to the battle stations, the outrage machine creaks toward full throttle, shots are fired, “with us or against us” logic spikes to new heights, ridiculous condemnations of the perpetrator pop up, each one more overblown than the last. People start calling for boycotts, petitions, protests, attacks on the bad guy’s facebook page, yada yada. And then everyone forgets everything a few days later. It’s all such baloney. I’m sorry, but I’m tired of it. The guy’s a fucking comedian. Life goes on.
Kane
Imagine that you and some friends go to comedy show. You are all having a good time and enjoying the show when someone in the audience decides to interrupt the show to declare that a joke isn’t funny or that a certain subject matter shouldn’t be joked about.
This isn’t about convictions or standing for something. This is about interrupting a show and making an ass of yourself. And generally when someone interrputs a comedy show and makes an ass of themselves, they had better understand that the comic on stage is about to mock and belittle them like never before.
The prophet Nostradumbass
Patton Oswalt stuck up for Tosh as well, in this tweet, where he dismissed the woman as a “self-aggrandizing, idiotic blogger”. He made a few other stupid comments after that one, as well.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Kane: Actually, no, it’s not about interrupting a show AT ALL. Tosh asked for suggestions for joke subjects, someone suggested “rape”, Tosh said something along the lines of “rape jokes are always funny”, and the woman yelled, essentially “no they aren’t”. She did not interrupt the show.
DPS
@Caz:
Well, this really makes me think. So would you advise that I actively support the candidacy of Willard Romney, the only alternative to Barack Obama, by donations of cash and time, or would you say I should support Willard passively instead, by closing the old checkbook and staying in to have a wank on election day? Your answer is really important here, so don’t you dare leave me hanging.
suzanne
@Spaghetti Lee:
Ahm but that’s not how patriarchy works. An individual statement examined in isolation doesn’t mean much, but in aggregate, these sorts of things very much contribute to a rape culture. One in four women being sexually assaulted should suggest to you that there’s a fairly significant chunk of the population that doesn’t seem to think rape is so bad.
Both Sides Do It
– defense of comedians who are defending Tosh –
First and foremost, it’s understood by every single person who has ever walked into a comedy club that if you heckle the comedian you are going to get nuked from orbit, and the only reason you wouldn’t be is the discretion of the performer. That’s the deal. That’s the social convention which has existed for decades. Responses to heckling are to get them to shut the fuck up, and they are supposed to be that extreme, expected to be that extreme, and understood by everyone to exist in that context. Saying that Tosh threatened the heckler with rape by responding to a heckle the way he did is absurd, because it ignores that convention and fundamentally misreads what human beings have decided they’re doing when a bunch of them gather in a room to hear one of them stand on a stage and tell jokes. When a comedian responds to a heckler, she’s doing a version of The Aristocrats joke: it’s a formal exercise, a stylistic exercise, and the content is serving a very specific function which everyone recognizes. You miss that, you miss what’s going on, and the criticism is unwarranted.
The criticism of Tosh which doesn’t rely on misreading those conventions is that he’s enabling rape culture, and that by saying stuff like “all rape is funny” and “wouldn’t it be funny if she got raped” he’s perpetuating a culture that allows more rape to occur.
Here’s the deal: read that Jezebel column. Try and understand its arguments. Read it again.
Now look. The four examples that are given of “acceptable” rape jokes? Tosh was doing the exact same thing, only he’s not good at it. His act rests on essentially one premise: “we all know this stuff is bad, and even though we all know I’m not advocating this stuff, the fact that we get all nervous about even jokingly saying it’s not terrible is funny.” Tosh has released a few sets, and he covers as many topics as most comedians do, but for the most part he just changes the horrible thing he’s talking about while exploiting that same basic premise.
That’s the same premise the “acceptable” rape jokes are working with, and it’s the one Tosh was using for the jokes under scrutiny. But instead of crafting a unique take on it, he just broadly asserts the premise’s implication. “Hey, I’ll say rape is not only not a bad thing, but a good thing. Now you laugh.”
Now here’s the tricky part. Tosh as a person and as a performer are not re-entrenching or expanding rape culture. He’s utilizing it to be funny. He’s acknowledging its existence. But he’s not saying it’s a good thing, or legitimizing it, or what have you.
On the other hand: people are dumb, and Tosh’s audience is dumb, and we know that not everyone is going to understand what he’s doing, and so the response of some portion of the audience is to have rape culture legitimized or re-entrenched or whatever for them.
So the real question is, how responsible is an artist for how people view and respond to their art? And how should people who experience the artistic creation at some remove (ie, weren’t at the performance, or haven’t seen the painting, or haven’t listened to the song) respond to what they imagine the effect on some hypothetical audience member who misunderstands what the artistic creation is doing?
The comedians who are defending Tosh are saying: “we cannot control people who misunderstand what we are doing, and have inappropriate responses to our artistic expression based on that misunderstanding. Our responsibility is to our own selves, and our own artistic creation.” Whatever you want to think about that notion, statements like “they’re all just scumbags” and “they’re only doing it as part of a back-slapping professional network that looks out for each other” are just plain wrong.
I, personally, think that they’re in the right. We need comedians to be able to use the premise that Tosh and CK and the other examples are working with, because it’s goddamn powerful. Richard Pryor is going to be listened to for decades, CK too, and one of the main reasons is that stand-up is one of the few mass entertainment venues where this premise is engaged and played with.
Besides that, there is a social gadfly kind of a thing going on here that I think is pretty fragile and whose very real value can be lost by condemning stand-ups for people who misunderstand what they’re doing. One of the ways opposition to rape culture is combated that reaches a unique subset of people is through comedy, because the medium disarms the social components of the message and can get people who otherwise would just throw up a “feminazi” screen at rape statistics to understand this stuff on a more visceral level. But that can’t happen if people can’t get good at making jokes about it, and people can’t get good at making jokes about it if they can’t make bad jokes about it, and that’s prevented when we hold comedians accountable for people who misunderstand what they’re doing.
Plus, the phenomenon Freddie decries in the post works both ways. It’s great to be able to fume at someone for enabling rape culture, and it’s more satisfying when there are no complications to get in the way of the hatred, when you don’t have to think about what’s actually going on. This is one of those examples because look! he said so right there: “rape is funny.” Awful. Except what he’s actually doing is acknowledging that rape is awful and that rape culture exists etc. So what we’re actually doing is condemning an artist for the misunderstanding of his craft by people in an audience we weren’t in, which is complicated, and doesn’t let us have the same sort of righteousness.
I’m not saying anyone here is doing that. But society is complicated. Alls I’m saying is we need to understand about what’s actually going on before we start condemning things. And while I think what I think, I’m not completely convinced about it; if you want to make a case that in this case too many people are going to misunderstand Tosh, and there’s not enough value in defending an artist from the misunderstandings of an audience, that’s completely reasonable and I’m open to being convinced. But I haven’t seen these kinds of issues being discussed in the past few days, and in order to understand to have a conversation revolving around the things that are actually happening, they need to be.
Hypatia's Momma
@Spaghetti Lee:
Boys will be boys!
It’s just a comedian.
@Kane:
“Rape isn’t funny” = making an ass of yourself. Huh.
ShadeTail
Louis CK has done some very good material. This, for instance. But yeah, defending Tosh’s “joke” is totally bogus.
Kane
@The prophet Nostradumbass: So did Tosh ask this woman personally about her opinion of whether she thought rape jokes are funny? I don’t believe he did. Apparently he asked the audience for suggestions for joke topics, not for opinions on what is and what isn’t funny. She interrupted the show by yelling her opinion when it was not requested.
ShadeTail
@Kane: Even if true, so what? Suggesting someone should be raped is *NOT* appropriate, regardless of any excuses vomited out to defend the barbaric notion.
Thomas F
Freddie, when you serve it up, you serve it up damn well good. I simply can’t wait ’til you’re First Prelate on the Peoples’ Revolutionary Court when we all figure this shit out.
Mayken
@PZ: I don’t expect him to come down on Tosh – I don’t expect any particular comic to go out of their way to call out Tosh. I do expect him NOT to defend this shit!
Martin
@Spaghetti Lee:
But… if not for expressing outrage, what would we use the Interwebs for? It’d be utterly useless.
Martin
@Mayken:
He didn’t defend Tosh’s statement. He supported Tosh. My kids do stupid shit. I don’t defend their stupid shit, but I’m going to support my kids.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Kane: Even if I grant you that the woman “interrupted” him, which I do not, you actually think that suggesting it would be funny if she was gang-raped is an appropriate response? I think I already know all I need to about you.
ETA: Shorter Kane: Bitch had it coming to her.
The prophet Nostradumbass
Here’s a Google search I suggest some people look at: rape culture.
Kane
@Hypatia’s Momma: There’s a time and a place for everything. Getting up on your soapbox at a comedy show is probably not the best place to declare what topics are and are not funny.
As an adult, when you buy a ticket for a comedy show, you kind of expect to hear some outrageous and perhaps offensive things. That’s party of comedy. And anyone going to a Tosh show should probably understand going in what his comedy is all about.
Darkrose
@Kane: Yeah, we definitely have to shut those mouthy bitches up. Implied threats of rape always work well for that.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Darkrose: I think my “Bitch had it coming to her” sums that asshole up pretty well.
ETA: There’s a LGM post from yesterday where the comments hash this over pretty well, including smacking the morons like Kane.
Hypatia's Momma
@Kane:
So, Michael Richards = so funny! Huh.
AxelFoley
@Caz:
Only you, asshole, would bring President Obama into a discussion which has nothing to do with him.
Fuck you, bitch.
Darkrose
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Sadly true.
Hypatia's Momma
@Darkrose:
No, see, rape jokes are edgy and subversive because mumblesomethingmumble comedians freedom of speech rape is funny!
cinesimon
How anyone can see the obvious distinction between laughing Tosh’s joke and CK’s as convoluted, is beyond me.
Surely you’d have to not understand or enjoy ANY CK’s work to come up with such a bizarre objection – and not actually want to look at what he’s doing.
This type of argument reminds me of what the right does with so many issues these days: they decide to look at an issue a certain way, and nothing – not reality, not extremely obvious points against their argument, will convince them to even consider looking again at the issue.
CK was a dick to defend Tosh. We all have a right to be dicks. But his jokes are entirely different. Nothing convoluted if you get his humor in the first place.
Kane
@The prophet Nostradumbass: I think the response towards the woman was unfortunate and in bad taste. In my opinion, it was not funny.
In the world of comedy shows, it is a given that if you interrupt a comic while he or she is doing their show, the comic is going to make you pay for the interruption. I believe Seinfeld did a show on this very topic. So in that sense, she should have known that Tosh was going to go after her.
The problem is, is that Tosh is not a very good comic. If he were a more seasoned comic, his retort would have been much different. Pros like Seinfeld or Louis C.K or Chris Rock or Joan Rivers would have known how to handle the interruption without making an offensive statement and creating such controversy.
cinesimon
Oh and Caz: you really need to seek help.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Kane: SHE DID NOT INTERRUPT THE COMIC. This has already been explained to you. When you solicit input from the audience, you can’t expect all of it to be “yeah, dude, awesome!”.
Spaghetti Lee
OK, let’s say any joke about rape is inexcusable and not funny. Any comedian who tells one gets blackballed (in some non-1st-amendment-violating, vox-populi sort of way). What else isn’t funny? Jokes about fat people-always a big to-do around here. Again, comedians who make jokes like that get blackballed. Race is obviously out. Poverty-out. Age, sexual orientation, disability-out, out, out. These are all things that are serious problems in the real world, and they’re sure to offend somebody.
At what point have we become the sort of people that are mocked, here and elsewhere-joyless political ideologues who patrol art of all sorts for Goodthink before they deem it acceptable? Did I miss some new rule that says all art that deals with social ills has to be uplifting and inclusive and carefully worded before it’s on the up-and-up? Maybe it’s just me, but it seems like the point of lots of stand-up comedy and similar things is that life sucks, regular people can get shit on, the world is cruel, and what the comedy does is try to take the horrible parts of life and turn them into something we can laugh at instead of weep about.
If you’re saying that comedians should avoid entire topics on principle because lots of people are offended by them, you’re missing this very simple truth about what social comedy involves. And what annoys me is that whenever this comes up, there’s always a group of people saying that anyone defending comedians joking about these bad things must support them, find them funny when they happen to real people, wish they’d happen more often. Excuse me, but what justification do you have for assuming that? Because you, personally, don’t find something funny? I don’t think anyone’s asking you to. But I also think it’s unfair to ask the entire world of comedy to work by your standards.
Afferent Input
Maybe I am missing something here. Everyone keeps saying CK “defended” Tosh’s nasty comment. But as far as I can tell from the link in the OP, all he did is tweet that he likes Tosh’s show and that Tosh has pretty eyes. That doesn’t sound to me like he is defending his comments. There is a difference here.
This reminds me of the stupid crap that happens in politics all the time. Some stupid Pol or Pundit says something really stupid, and everyone one on their team (be it D or R) is supposed to “denounce” those comments. Now, if CK really said Tosh’s comments were just dandy, then that’s a different story. But if all that happened is that he tweeted some nice things to him, then this has devolved into the same stupid game.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Spaghetti Lee: Ah yes, the “slippery slope” fallacy.
Spaghetti Lee
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
For the record, I’m not saying such a scenario is actually happening, in reality. What I am asking is how the argument that comedians or other entertainers shouldn’t make light of X because it’s not something to joke about doesn’t lead to that line of argument.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Spaghetti Lee: So, you both are and aren’t using the slippery slope argument at the same time. Okay.
Both Sides Do It
@Spaghetti Lee:
Rape is different, both because the harm rape causes is uniquely awful and because our culture’s treatment of rape encourages that awfulness in unique ways. Jokes about rape operate in different ways than jokes about other topics. It’s completely consistent to say both that all rape jokes are off-limits and that there’s nothing wrong with eg age/obesity jokes.
@Afferent Input:
Tosh does an extended riff on rape jokes, it becomes a big internet thing, CK tweets “I like his show.” Unless CK was completely unaware of how big it became on the internet, which is unlikely because uh he’s tweeting about it, it functions as a defense of Tosh’s rape jokes and was almost certainly intended to do so.
Spaghetti Lee
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
One is dealing with what’s actually happening in the real world, one is an abstract argument. There’s a distinction.
Spaghetti Lee
@Both Sides Do It:
OK, that makes sense. I think I just got a little out of control there. West said the same thing in that Jezebel article, which made sense to me when I read it.
Kane
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
No, it wasn’t “explained” to me. You gave your opinion, and I gave you mine. And the difference there is that I have been respectful in sharing my opinion. And just because you make your opinion in CAPS doesn’t make it so. Here’s how the Daily Beast wrote about the story:
So apparently I’m not the only one who sees this as a heckler interrupting a show.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Kane: Your arguments always boil down to “Bitch had it coming to her”. You seem to be proud of that. The Daily Beast, quoting the owner of the club, who of course has no interest in this thing at all, suggest the bitch had it coming.
aet
I just can’t get mad at Tosh. He’s an asshole who routinely goes too far, but that’s pretty much his only thing. Go watch one of the ‘Happy Thoughts’ videos of his on Youtube, around 1:52. That’s the key part of his act: he’s a charming, smiling, otherwise likeable person who says horrible things. This is a man who uses his own sister in a joke about rape, and does it with a cartoonish smile. It’s pitch-black humor.
Anyone who listens to his material, and is somehow inspired by it, is a sociopath. They were already going to do something horrible.
And anyone who heckles a comedian is asking to get verbally beaten. These are people who write comedy and insults for a living, who trade jokes with other such people. You’re going to see all the bitterness and vile such a professional is capable of, combined with none of the filters.
Joel
The point here, as always, is that Daniel Tosh is a no-talent douchebag who also happens to suck at life. I knew the former, and suspected the latter. Now it’s confirmed.
Kane
@The prophet Nostradumbass: It’s become crystal clear that you have never been to a comedy show in your life. You want to feign Fox-like outrage and righteous indignation over a comic insulting a heckler, but you can’t see your own hypocrisy in callously repeating the word “Bitch” on a website visited by a number of women, including myself, who may take offense to your language.
Older_Wiser
I don’t know why hipsters think people like Tosh and Louis CK should be able to get away with this violently misogynistic stuff. There is nothing remotely funny about rape, nor suggesting a scenario where a woman should be gang-raped, either, even in jest. Violence against women paves the way for men to carry out violence against others they want to control. These guys and their audiences may think it’s just another funny line, but they obviously have never talked with a rape victim nor developed any consciousness about this primal fear women often bury inside and carry around with them all their lives. These “comedians” deserve any criticism heaped on them.
mouse tolliver
I like this part from the Jezebel article.
From what I’ve seen of Tosh’s act, he doesn’t do jokes, he does comments. Comments that aren’t funny.
The Gimp
I love how most people here ignored the pro female comedian’s comments about the whole situation and just continued to blather on about their own opinion.
Louis CK is, hands down, one of the best. His way of approaching the subject is how a pro handles sensitive topics. His comments in defense of Tosh (as a person, or otherwise) are unfortunate, yes. Most comedians circle the wagons, though, as they all get attacked from time to time.
The difference between Tosh’s ‘joke’ and CK’s is like the difference between shit and filet mignon.
Marcellus Shale, Public Dick
when you heckle a comedian you are making a verbal contract that implies you understand comedy culture. the comedian has to control the room. comedians ratfuck each other just like political slacktivists, bloggers, et al. the dissemination of this incident to the wider web audience was out of bounds.
drink your two drinks, and bitch about the price of daquiries on the way home.
Keith G
@AxelFoley:
Isn’t this what caused all the trouble?
I’m confused.
Jamey
Not defending Tosh, but the word he was looking for was “ironic,” not “funny.” Near as I can tell (and I haven’t yet read the Jezebel article), the gag was that a woman was [justifiably] offended by rape jokes and yelled at Tosh; Tosh then quipped that it would be funny [ironic] if she were raped. “Like right now.”
His was a ham-fisted attempt at black humor that went terribly wrong for two reasons: He didn’t establish context (i.e., how Lewis CK and Sarah Silverman manage to get away with saying similarly objectionable things, even though I don’t think they always should); he’s an insufferable douche. He was pissed off at the girl, so his joke wasn’t just an attempt at gallows humor–a point that somebody else made here–WAY more elegantly than I ever could…
Here’s the CW about humor that helps explain why jokes about rape aren’t funny: It’s funny when the oppressed can laugh at their “betters” (e.g., foppish nobleman gets a chamber-pot dumped on his head–fuh-nee!). It’s not funny when the oppressors are poking fun at their victims (e.g., future major party presidential candidate holds down an effeminate classmate and cuts off said classmate’s hair. Not fuh-nee.) This maxim distinguishes being the butt of the joke from actually being a victim. And if it’s one thing that’s universally accepted (in an ethical sense… stay with me here), it’s that people who’ve been raped are victims.
Prison rape gags: Not funny. Date rape gags: not funny. General, garden-variety rape gags: not funny. I get that some humorists use shock as a device to make a point about the perpetrators of bad and stupid behavior (again, Silverman), but mostly what they’re doing is giving cover to the multitudes of shitty comedians who just want to make other assholes laugh.
Mino
I can’t find the article now, but yesterday I saw reporting of another “joke” stunt of Tosh’s–send guy out to touch the stomachs of strange women and see how they react.
Still think this is all theoretical?
Patricia Kayden
“the world is currently gargling Louis CK’s testicles” LOL!
I don’t know much about Tosh or Louis and after reading the Pharyngula post about Tosh’s rape “jokes”, feel fine condemning both gentlemen.
Keith G
A few very good and thoughtful (even insightful) comments here. Let me incompetently add:
Many, if not most, comics are not fully socialized beings. The neuroses and other demons that propel them to pursue a job with 90% + failure rate are often deep and dark and harmful to important skills such as empathy. They do not play well with others. That is one reason why even the best can say things that normal society finds objectionable.
That is also why they tend to band together in initial defense of someone’s “bad behavior”. They are one moment from being in the line of fire themselves. Remember CK caught a ton of shit for offensive drunk tweeting about Palin. That may have been one of the reasons he declined to host the Press Corps Dinner earlier this year. So don’t read too much into the immediate defense of Tosh (someone who I do not know or have listened to because I had gotten the sense from other comics that he was not that funny)
We trust and need the modern standup to go to dark and dangerous places. The US press has all but sold out its duty to guard our blind spots. Institutionally, almost all we have left are the court jesters to speak truth to awfulness.
Because of that, I cannot abide creating lists of “no go” topics. Everything much be explored lest we abort the good in an endeavor to prevent the bad.
That said, it does seem that Tosh did a reasonable thing (crowd work) in an unreasonable way. As a better picture of the events unfold, the market place will have its say. It happens and he will have to live with it and I have a feeling he will not be better in the short term for his actions.
But I was not there and in the world of performance, personal observation of an action within its context is rather important to useful judgement.
300baud
Jesus, Freddie.
Knowing nothing about this tempest, and still knowing nothing more than the links you’ve included, I cannot believe your causal dismissal of Lindy West’s view. She’s a professional funny person, a student of comedy, and a feminist. As far as I can tell, her analysis of Louie CK is spot on here. But you don’t even bother to engage with it, because then you might realize you’re just running your righteousness machine.
Your notion that people *must* demonstrate their political convictions (demonstrate to your satisfaction, of course) by nailing up people they like is warped. I agree completely that people are absurdly tribal and hypocritical in situations like this. It’s part of their biology, and they need to learn to not let it run them around. But righteous anger is also part of one’s biology, and you don’t get to skip thinking things through just because you think you’re on the side of the angels.
That includes giving proper evidence. I don’t see anything showing that Louie CK defended Tosh’s comments. What you’ve got is CK saying something nice to Tosh personally after Tosh apologized.
lacp
@Caz: Barack Obama does stand-up? I did not know this.
Cassidy
I think people are blowing this out of proportion. A) This is Tosh. Did anyone really expect him to not say something offensive? That’s his shtick. That’s what pays for his house. B)Tosh is always making fun of his audience. You are getting mocked from the very first joke he tells. His whole act is designed to make you laugh and then make you uncomfortable as hell, and then he laughs at you for it.
Ex: Early in his act he tells a joke about playing practical jokes with his sister and he replaces her pepper spray with silly string. Later after she’s been raped and she tells him “you got me good” and everyone laughs. The whole audience. He’s got that shit-eating grin of his and gives the audience permission to laugh at his raped sister. Later, when he tells a joke that goes a little far and everyone kind of weakly laughs or is quiet, he responds with “Oh, was that too far. My sister getting raped is funny, but this was too much.” and then some variation of let me know wher the line is, etc. This is not off the cuff; this is a part of his act. Again, the whole point is to make his audience uncomfortable and in some cases confront taboos that people purposely avoid.
So, yeah, this wasn’t a threat to violence. This was him thinking off the cuff and and not being quick enough to phrase it differently.
Todd
Meh. I don’t find tosh funny at all, but then again, I’m not a 15 year old anymore.
MattMinus
I heard Jim Gaffigan has been workshopping a sick new routine where he does a 45 minute,super graphic bit about raping a Hot Pocket.
Keep your powder dry, comedy commissars.
Cassidy
@Todd: And I’m sure Jay Leno’s standup is the height of comedy for you.
SmallAxe
Tosh.0 is a funny friggin show imo, he insults all races and just about everyone and to me and obviously a lot of other people it’s funny. What he did that night was wrong and reprehensible. He’s apologized, move on. Comedy takes all forms and we all have different senses of humor. So you don’t think he’s funny, I get it move on. News flash, comedians have always crossed the line, it’s kind of part of the job to try to find the line. Looks like he found it.
Todd
@Cassidy:
Leno is unfunny as well. Black is funny, Griffin is funny.
Cassidy
@Todd: Personally, I’m more a of Billy Burr fan, but I try not to casually dismiss the tastes of others. Different strokes and all.
Timmy Mac
I’ve been a professional comic for almost 20 years (and a club owner for a few of those). So just a couple of related points from deep inside the belly of the beast.
First of all, if you really, really hate the comic you’re watching, then just leave. Don’t heckle. Stand up and leave. Trust me, it’s humiliating and it hurts. But if you heckle, now it’s a fight, and it’s a fight I’m going to win because I have the microphone and THIS IS WHAT I DO. So leave, embarrass me, and go complain to management. This will be much more effective if you really think I’m a menace that should be stopped.
And to be clear: heckling is not cool. Ever. If a comic is asking questions and wants answers, then it’s on them. But if you heckle, you will likely be savaged, the rest of the crowd will laugh at you, and you might get thrown out. And you should. It’s not vaudeville anymore.
Finally, for comedy to be the least bit relevant as an artform, it needs to fail sometimes. You can only do comedy in front of a crowd – you can’t practice alone in your room like musicians can. You have to work with an audience, and sometimes, that means you bomb, or the new joke you thought was funny comes out sounding racist because you worded it wrong, or someone heckles at the worst possible time and you really go off. Or whatever. It’s how comedy is done.
Except now we have a generation raised to believe they have a right to never hear anything that they don’t like, and they all have blogs. As a comic, this sounds awful to me. Now we’re all one bad new joke and angry blogger away from being the asshole of the internet.
For what it’s worth, as far as Tosh goes, without actually hearing the timing, tone, and real, verbatim context of what went down, it’s pretty impossible to know if what he said was funny or not. I’m not sure why everyone’s willing to take one pissed-off blogger’s account as gospel, but since words, timing, tone and context do in fact matter, like, a lot, I think it’s pretty dumb to have an opinion on whether the joke was funny or not.
There I go again, being poorly socialized and tribal.
SmallAxe
@Timmy Mac:
Amen, thank you.
dave
@Both Sides Do It:
Your thoughtful reasoned and nuanced comment above perfectly describes my feelings about this. Of course, this being the internet, your comment has been utterly ignored. I guess its better than it being mischaracterized. (those are the only two options)
EDIT: Timmy Mac too.
gnomedad
@Timmy Mac:
Very interesting. Thanks for the perspective.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
Attention culture warriors: I just got word that Daniel Tosh’s parents have refused to condemn the thought-criminal and remove him from their will and banish him forever from their sight.
Can I get some righteous condemnation for these monstrous rape apologists? Add them to the blacklist…
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Timmy Mac: Thank you for that.
This is why Louis C.K. sent words of encouragement to Tosh. It’s not because he loves rape and was just waiting for a chance to support it. It’s because every comedian who’s worth a damn knows that they might slip up one day and be in the same position.
If your solution is that comedians should simply avoid all potentially offensive topics, there’s really not much to say in response. Tame comedy is worthless to society.
Zach
I think what’s lost in this is that she went to a comedy club to see Uber-Feminist Comedian Dane Cook. How could she possibly think that something offensive would become a topic?
Cassidy
I love how empowering his variations on the word “twat” is. Really makes me think, “this is the kind of guy who should be dating my daughter”.
Steve in DC
They day that you can’t make a joke because it’s rude, offensive, or someone gets upset is the day ALL jokes die. Let comedy be comedy, and if there is something that is so special to you that you can’t take a joke about it, stay the fuck out of comedy clubs because you are the problem.
Zach
@Timmy Mac:
I haven’t read anyone’s account except the complaining party’s.
Her version of events is (quoted text from her account exactly):
She went to a club to see Dane Cook.
After Dane came on some other comedian came on.
She thought the other comedian was an amateur.
The Comedian made a statement about how rape is always funny.
The Comedian dwelt on the rape is always funny line.
She felt provoked and interjected “Actually, rape jokes are never funny!”
The comedian paused and then said “Wouldn’t it be funny if that girl got raped by like, 5 guys right now? Like right now? What if a bunch of guys just raped her…”
She was stunned and then left and didn’t hear anything else the comedian said.
She said she didn’t know who Tosh was and only found out later.
To me it sounds like heckling handled poorly because it came in the middle of a poorly executed joke about rape culture.
Christian Sieber
@300baud:
I couldn’t agree with this comment more. Freddie’s characterization of Lindy West’s post is completely dishonest. His characterization of CK’s comments as a “defense” of Tosh is also very dishonest. The things he is writing simply aren’t true, and anyone with a brain can read CK’s tweet and West’s article and discover that. The disparity between what Freddie wrote (and I was all ready to be outraged!) and what is actually in the text is amazing.
Timmy Mac
@Zach: See, that’s a one-sided description of what happened from someone who was angry about the material AND probably embarrassed and angry about being the butt of the joke. Even without the obvious coloring that’s going to give her version of events, no comic on earth sounds funny when someone else is *describing* their material. Remember Lenny Bruce complaining to the judge because the person reading the transcripts wasn’t doing it right?
My point is that without actually being there and hearing everything, I don’t think you can say if the entire exchange was funny or not.
Ordovician Bighorn Dolomite (formerly rarely seen poster Fe E)
I have only read throgh the first 60 or so comments, so forgive me if I’m repeating others’ take here: I’d say free speech is working out as planned right now. Tosh tripped a trigger, got heckled, then crossed a line and stirred up a shitstorm with people both famous and not
sounding off on itpummeling him with indignation.It ain’t always pretty, but voices are being heard.
My guess is Tosh leaves rape off of his list of potential material from here on out. I don’t think this will kill his career a la Michael Richards, but mainly because unlike Richards Tosh is actually funny, if a bit predictable and one-note. Time will tell.
N. Eugene
I don’t read C.K.’s tweet as an outright defense of Tosh. He didn’t mention anything specific about the controversy, and he didn’t direct it at any critics. It’s more like words of support for a peer, which you can certainly criticize him for, but he’s not endorsing the “rape is always funny” angle. At any rate, I’m a fan of C.K. and I certainly felt disappointed when I saw that he’d offered support to Tosh, because what Tosh said was completely fucked, but nobody’s perfect.
rb
@SquareSquid: Thanks for breaking this down so clearly.
Applejinx
Since I’m more a BJ poster than a Jezebel poster…
Mel Brooks. Blazing Saddles. Hedley Lamar and job applicant.
That’s a rape joke that is funny- way funnier than George Carlin’s attempts (apart from ‘these are the thoughts that kept me out of the really good schools’, his real punchline) and it’s funny not because it’s nasty or about ‘rape culture’, it’s funny because the joke is, these guys are HORRIBLE. They don’t even realize it or they don’t care, but they’re horrible and we’re laughing at them, not with them.
When the hired goon, asked ‘why did you put rape twice?’ chortles and explains ‘I like rape’, he’s putting a big ‘kick me’ sign on himself, sounds almost childish. Hedley, in the role of employer/authority, is ‘supposed’ to go on to tell him he’s filled the form out wrong or something, but Hedley is an even bigger monster so he’s pleased with the guy. It’s also a joke on how much of a creep Hedley is, that he’s pleased by this obvious cretin and goon.
The guy in the nightclub with a microphone and a stage is in an authority position. What he said didn’t have Carlin’s “these are the thoughts that kept me out of the really good schools” twist- that cutting-yourself-off-at-the-knees thing that’s the hallmark of a really GOOD comic, because you can’t be a really good comic by just sneering at people, and you sure can’t be a good comic by suggesting it’d be funny if your audience became monsters and committed crimes.
Unless they became zombies. Maybe that would be funny. The trouble with raping somebody as a zombie is, NOTHING is hard…
mantis
Seriously? Going after comedians whose schtick is being offensive for being offensive? No, that’s not a futile, idiotic pursuit or anything.
Also, if anyone finds themselves creating lists of types of jokes that are funny and not funny, step away from the keyboard and tell yourself, “I’m a fucking moron. I should find something useful to do with my time.”
And don’t heckle a comedian and then act surprised when you get shit on. Idiot.
Cassidy
@Applejinx: Believe it or not, mor than a few books/comics have addressed the sex and zombies bit. Hell, there is one that passes the zombie virus as an STD.
mantis
@Applejinx:
The guy in the nightclub with a microphone and a stage is in an authority position.
Ok, now that was a funny joke!
rb
@300baud: You mean Freddie went ahead and dismissed a nuanced, informed analysis so we could get our outrage on?
Say it ain’t so.
Mattminus
I think Freddie DeBoer is doing rape culture because this post doesn’t have a 72 point blinking red “trigger warning” on it.
xian
@hitchhiker: isn’t that also a rape joke?
btw, what is this “whole class of people” Freddie would execute? Is it people who use twitter or just people who do wrongthink?
Zach
@Timmy Mac:
Timmy, I’m on your side. I read her description and couldn’t understand the freak-out.
She admits she interjected during a rape joke. Tosh responded with a targeted poorly executed rape joke. Somehow this gets translated into Tosh asking for her to be raped.
If Tosh had said wouldn’t it be funny if someone pissed in her face would that have been telling people to piss in her face?
Timmy Mac
@Zach: I wasn’t trying to argue with you – sorry if that wasn’t clear. Just clarifying why I’m not defending or condemning the actual jokes.
Jamie Masada, the owner of the club, gave a slightly different version of events, and between the two, and with all my wasted years in comedy clubs as a filter, I think I have a sense of what really happened, but it’s just total speculation on my part.
Corey
@xian: Freddie hates Ezra Klein and Matt Yglesias for being more popular on the internet than he is, so he shoehorns veiled insults to them and people he considers like them into every. single. post. he makes on all 20 of his blogs.
Scalfin
@hitchhiker:
And now I know what idiots think logic looks like.
Joel
@SmallAxe:
Now that is funny. Or are you being serious?
Wait a second, a double-header of Daniel Tosh and Dane Cook? This exists?
Rex Everything
Once again, Freddie, HELL YES to every word you wrote.
LanceThruster
So is the bit, “The Aristocrats” now verboten because it often deals with incestuous scatalogical pedophilia? Are all those comics who have done an Aristocrats bit now tainted by those who “went too far?”
Is murder more or less funny than rape?
I remember Rick Duccomun talking about roadside executions for bad drivers. He went down a list of things that drivers deserved to die for (leaving turn signal on when on a bridge, not having car in gear when light turns green, etc., – “KILL THEM! I want them DEAD!”). Is Duccomun responsible for acts of road rage now?
On the same comedy special (I think) was Margeret Smith who deadpanned, “Sometimes I wake up and just want to go out and kill people, but there’d be so many people I’d have to kill. I just don’t have that kind of energy.”
These bits truly killed. I LOVED them!
There’s a reason why court jesters were pretty much given carte blanche. Looking at the darker side of things allows all of us a peek at our own ids.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?
[groan]
Too soon?
Will
Everyone who’s explaining all the wonderful and special ways that Louis CK’s rape jokes are “different” than Tosh’s….
…you really should, you know, watch his show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNRNCk3YwqE
This is a bit, based on a real experience wherein he attacks a woman speaking during his performance, she says rape isn’t funny, he says it is, and then encourages the audience to “stick a dick in her face” in order to give her aids.
Assuming that ‘some’ rape jokes can be funny, then when they are or are not funny is going to depend on context. Which is what NONE of us have in this instance. At best, we have two competing narratives of the event. One, a narrative written by a blogger who was not at the event, based on the recollections of the person who was at the event and was the subject of Tosh’s comments. The other from the club owner. The two accounts contradict one another.
Joel
@Timmy Mac: I understand where you’re coming from. And I definitely agree with hecklers. I also think people taking pictures of performers during their set is completely obnoxious and incredibly stupid at the same time.
That said, when you perform for a living, taking heat is part of the game, right? Besides, a little unwanted exposure to the masses is a good thing. Performers that have become too insulated tend to suck at their job.
Xecky Gilchrist
Please, understand: your political convictions mean nothing if you aren’t willing to sacrifice for them.
Damn straight. This goes for the Penn child molestation apologists, too.
Timmy Mac
@Joel: That’s probably true, and more than one good comic has started to suck after getting famous because nobody will tell them when they’ve gone too far up their own ass.
But on the other hand, live comedy already has a perfectly good feedback mechanism built into it – bombing. Trust me, I’ve had plenty of jokes bomb that in retrospect I wish I hadn’t tried. I’m just glad none of them met with global internet fury.
Timmy Mac
@Joel: That’s a good point. God knows plenty of comics have started to suck once they got famous because they no longer have an accurate measure of what’s funny or not.
For the rest of us, the immediate feedback mechanism built into live comedy keeps you pretty honest. A joke doesn’t have to bomb too many times before you won’t try it again.
Nutella
So, 119 comments and only four people acknowledge that Tosh did two things: made a joke that many find objectionable, and urged the audience to gang-rape a heckler.
All the argument about exactly how objectionable the joke was misses the important point: Tosh threatened a person who annoyed him with extreme violence.
That’s disgusting whatever the original joke was.
Hypatia's Momma
@Timmy Mac:
MattR
@Nutella:
Well, I can’t agree with the first part since we don’t actually know for sure what was said or the tone it was said in. All I can agree is that one woman at the show found his joke objectionable and a whole lot of people are offended by her description of the joke. As for the second part, you really believe he was urging the audience to gang rape her? IMO, that is such an overreaction that I don’t even know how to respond. Saying, “Wouldn’t it be funny if X?” in a comedy club does not encourage the audience to actually do X. (Yeah, yeah. I know. I am a man so I don’t get it and rape is different and all that, but if he had said “wouldn’t it be funny if you got stabbed” that would not be a suggestion for others to stab her and if he said “wouldn’t it be funny if you got cancer” that doesn’t mean he wants her to get cancer)
peorgietirebiter
@Will: I’d also suggest a new and prejudicial context has been created after the fact for what I never saw as a “rape” joke. I saw a joke about his relationship with his sister and the absurdity of her reaction to his prank. I suppose it would have still been funny to me had his sister called to acknowledge his prank while she was getting mugged but I wouldn’t be laughing about her getting mugged. When I laugh at a Ricky Gervais bit, I’m not laughing about the holocaust. You may not share my sense of humor, but you really can’t assume I believe rape or genocide is anything but unimagineably horrific.
roc
The answer to speech you don’t like is more speech. The law need only be involved if the original speech crossed into those things not covered by the first amendment.
So, inasmuch as Tosh, in context, came across as inciting action, that would be undeniably and horribly wrong.
But short of that — and I don’t think anyone has produced video of the context from which we would could have a meaningful discussion — as long as the argument over “what comics say” stays on the level of what *should* they say or not say, as opposed to what *can’t* they say or not say, things are fine.
Just as comics are and should be free to say crude and demented shit (within the limits of the first amendment), everyone else is free to say the comic and/or joke was crude/demented/wrong/unfunny.
Timmy Mac
@Hypatia’s Momma: I’m not sure what your point is. All I’m suggesting is if you want to let the comic know you don’t approve of what they’re saying, standing up, leaving, and complaining to management is a much more effective way to go about it. That’s not a defense of what anyone said to anyone. That’s just me telling you how to achieve your goals without being made fun of (rightly or wrongly).
FormerSwingVoter
This is really simple. Rape isn’t funny. If you think it is, you’re an asshole.
I guess it’s okay to be an asshole; I mean, there are worse things to be. But don’t be surprised when people get mad at you for being an asshole. That doesn’t make you a victim – that makes you an asshole.
mouse tolliver
@Zach: An account from a Tosh apologist said that he wasn’t joking about rape. He was talking with the audience. Someone in the crowd said they wanted him to do some rape jokes. At which point the woman said rape jokes aren’t funny. How is it heckling if the comedian is soliciting comments from the audience?
Mattminus
@Nutella:
You might be the dumbest fucking person on the planet if you think that Tosh was actually urging his audience to rape anyone.
Is there any topic the “rape culture killed my dog” crowd won’t overreach on?
Keith G
@Hypatia’s Momma: Since your participation in this conversation is completely voluntary and you were not at the comedy show in question, just how were you dragged into it?
Hypatia's Momma
@Keith G:
While my comment was generally directed at comedians who think rape is funny and not this specific conversation, anyone who makes rape jokes is dragging everyone who’s been raped into their punchline. Rape isn’t funny. It’s even less funny that men continue to argue that it is.
scott
Thanks for the post. Rape isn’t funny, and people who defend that should get called for their shit, whether we like them or not.
scott
@Timmy Mac: Nice mansplaining, dude. Carry on.
Will
@peorgietirebiter:
I’m honestly not assuming anything. (And having had a job that involved the discussion and analysis of lots of lots of sex crimes, I can promise you that I’ve laughed at the worst things in the world. It was that or cry.)
My point was two-fold:
(1) I don’t think anyone can distinguish Louis CK so easily because he has done practically the same thing, and even made an episode of his TV show about it.
(2) Assuming that rape jokes are sometimes acceptable (which many will disagree with), then whether it succeeds or fails as a joke is a subjective determination and one that depends on context. And we don’t have context. Tosh’s original joke, and his follow-up to the heckler, could have been amazingly hilarious (for everyone but the heckler). Or they both could have bombed. We simply don’t know. Trying to evaluate the appropriateness or legitimacy of the joke without that context is a fool’s game.
Timmy Mac
@scott: I don’t even know what that is, but I gather it’s not good? Again – this is just me giving the perspective of someone in the industry who’s probably seen a couple thousand live comedy shows and witnessed and experienced plenty of heckling. I’m not defending rape jokes and I don’t do rape jokes. I’m just telling you that as a comic, if you want me to get the message that I crossed the line, leaving and complaining will do a better job of that than heckling me because it will likely affect whether or not I get booked back.
peorgietirebiter
@Will: I guess I didn’t make myself clear. I was agreeing with your point, and having seen the joke in context, attempting to expand on it. When I said “you” can’t assume, I meant it generally, as in ya’ll or one. Poor choice of words and I apo.igize for the confusion.
trollin'
Rape jokes are never funny, unless they involve clowns. Clowns are hilarious
Keith G
No, you are not being dragged into this. You are choosing to relinquish the autonomy of your feelings. That certainly is your right, but maybe it’s better not to give such power to others.
West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.)
I guess we live in a world where damn near anything goes. in the corporate world, there seems to be no sense of fair pricing, other than raking in the very last penny that you can. You can produce pills for seven cents and can get $120 for one? By all means, do it! Nothing immoral there now, is there? Take steroids in sports? Put a bounty on an opponent? Ignore rape if it means possibly losing your defensive coordinator (Sandusky)? Meh….
Maybe comedy is a bit like the corporate world: if it makes a laugh (a dollar), then let’s all just go with it! So what if the product is carcinogenic, toxic in nature? Someone’s laughing all the way to the bank.
scott
@Keith G: Yeah, it really is a drag when people affected by rape can’t have enough control over their own feelings not to be upset by rape jokes and to just shut up about it. Personally, I thought she was using her power to let everyone know how she feels, to protest against unacceptable BS, and to participate in a debate to stop it. But I misunderstood. Stoic acceptance and silence in the face of the unacceptable are the only legitimate responses.
scott
@Keith G: Yeah, it really is a drag when people affected by rape can’t have enough control over their own feelings not to be upset by rape jokes and to just shut up about it. Personally, I thought she was using her power to let everyone know how she feels, to protest against unacceptable BS, and to participate in a debate to stop it. But I misunderstood. Stoic acceptance and silence in the face of the unacceptable are the only legitimate responses.
Hypatia's Momma
@Keith G:
Ah, yes. Those idiotic Hu-mon Fe-male “emotions” over severely traumatic events. One would almost think that someone who’s been raped really, really doesn’t want to hear men making light of it.
Hypatia's Momma
@scott:
I should also wear a prominent scarlet ‘R’ at all times because this business of “normal-seeming” women (and men) turning out to have been raped is upsetting the poor man’s feelings.
Mattminus
@Timmy Mac:
Mansplaining is what happens when someone can’t actually respond to your argument, so they resort to identity politics and declare your position prima facie invalid because of your gender. See also, white privilege.
Will
@peorgietirebiter:
Gotcha. My bad.
Timmy Mac
@Mattminus: Thanks for the definition. I don’t think I was doing that, but as a straight white male, I guess I should start practicing. I could have a knack for it.
El Cid
Look, you hypocrites don’t seem to understand that I AM BEING PAID SMALL AMOUNTS TO POST ON LIBTARD BLOGS that to support Obambi is to HATE THE CONSTUSHUN and this is true BECAUSE I SAY IT so would you all please just give up and agree with me so I don’t have to wrack my tiny brain to come up with another lame hook to tie the OBAMA HATES THE CONSTUHUN topic to an unrelated post again?
Also, shut up, stop saying all your libtard shit, and don’t vote because you are all anti-America Constushun haters who lack us conservativarians’ steel grip on rationality and emprical proofs.
LanceThruster
@Xecky Gilchrist: So what about the Teller child molestation apologists?
Hypatia's Momma
@Timmy Mac:
Personally, I think the portmanteau “mansplaining” is grossly overused. However, it does have its uses.
Keith G
@Hypatia’s Momma: You are certainly free to make that interpretation of where I’m coming from. if you want some other information about my experience with sexual abuse please check out the Damning thread near the end #121.
I know its probably the fault of my stoic midwestern farm boy upbringing, but I just don’t find the cult of victimhood all that empowering. if you don’t like the guys product, withhold your patronage.
Zach
@mouse tolliver:
I haven’t read any accounts by Tosh apologists. I am going by the event as reported by the person who started the rage. She made no mention of audience participation. She mentioned not normally being one to disrupt. She apparently thought of her interjection as a disruption. I would expect a comedian to take someone’s disruptive interjection as a heckle.
Hypatia's Momma
@Keith G:
What an idiotic thing to say. There is no “cult of victimhood” when someone says that rape is not a topic for joking. You want to make jokes about you being raped? Rock on. But don’t tell others who’ve been raped that they should just shut up and sit down.
“Withholding patronage” doesn’t work when everyone is repeating the same stupid shit over and over. I didn’t pay to hear Tosh, either.
mantis
@Keith G:
if you don’t like the guys product, withhold your patronage.
What a concept!
If you don’t like offensive comedy about sensitive topics, don’t go see comics who specialize in that kind of material. If you go see one without knowing that’s the kind of comedy they do, don’t interrupt the show and make an ass out of yourself and annoy the rest of the audience. Just leave. If you do decide to heckle, don’t be surprised when you become a target. That’s what happens to hecklers.
mantis
@Hypatia’s Momma:
“Withholding patronage” doesn’t work when everyone is repeating the same stupid shit over and over. I didn’t pay to hear Tosh, either.
You’re being forced to read about and discuss this on the Internet? By whom?
Hypatia's Momma
@mantis:
Ah, yes. The ol’ “then you shouldn’t be on the internet! smirksmirk” line. Yes, yes, how very dare I object when people repeat rape jokes they’ve heard from a comedian. Because that happens, online and off.
I grew up hearing rape jokes. My mother grew up hearing rape jokes. And so forth. They aren’t edgy, they aren’t subversive, and they are fucking everywhere. So cram your “then stay off the internet” idiocy back up your cankered ass and shit it out elsewhere.
mantis
@Hypatia’s Momma:
You need to relocate, if everyone around you is telling rape jokes all the time. Where do you live? A prison?
Hypatia's Momma
@mantis:
I live on Earth. Lots of men on the planet and so many of them think rape is a hilarious topic.
scott
@Hypatia’s Momma: @Mattminus: Yup. As applied to this case, telling a woman upset by a rape joke and protesting it that she’s going about it all the wrong way. The essence of it is condescension, arrogance, and lack of empathy, and it’s an approach that doesn’t have to be limited to gender, although it sure is popular with that. You can encounter it in any context where someone has been really offended or hurt by something and helpful onlookers who don’t have enough empathy or imagination to understand why tell you either that your feelings are wrong or that you’re expressing them the wrong way (ie, above a whisper or outside of your lown head).
mantis
@Hypatia’s Momma:
I live on Earth. Lots of men on the planet and so many of them think rape is a hilarious topic.
Funny, I live there too, but my experience is quite different. Oh, and by the way, women can make rape jokes too. Sexist.
everyone is repeating the same stupid shit over and over
they are fucking everywhere
Before today, I can’t recall the last time I heard a rape joke. That’s why I wondered if you lived somewhere unusually populated by psychopaths. Apparently I live in an enclave protected from the rape jokes told by everyone, all the time. Lucky me.
scott
@mantis: Yes, lucky you, unlucky her.
Hypatia's Momma
@scott:
One might be lead into thinking that individuals have different experiences, based on gender, race, age, location, education, social background, and culture.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Hypatia’s Momma: Hey, I just got a new scoop! It’s turns out Louis C.K.’s wife has refused to divorce him for his utterly unforgivable joke from that one episode of his show! How dare she support that inhuman monster! Really, she’s fair game now, since anyone who’d ever even speak with someone who’d dare utter a rape joke is nothing more than rape-loving rape-monster.
Do you want to track down her employer and start the harrassing phone calls, or should I? Lord knows that we can’t let such inhuman, worthless scum walk the earth just thinking that associating with proscribed joke-tellers is cool.
Oh, I also heard that Tosh’s dog is also sticking by his master’s side. (“Master,” eh? Doesn’t that just say it all about this so-called person? He not only loves rape, but he loves slavery!) I expect sternly worded condemnations of this traitorous dog within the hour, culture warriors.
Hypatia's Momma
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
I have no idea what you are babbling about.
scott
@Hypatia’s Momma: Nope, that couldn’t be. If this guy didn’t experience it, it either didn’t happen or doesn’t matter.
Hypatia's Momma
@scott:
Yeah. It’s like, my downstairs neighbor told me about how she grew up being called all sorts of racial slurs and still has to deal with them. But I don’t hear any of this personally, so she’s probably either lying or just unlucky.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@scott: In other words, you’ve never been to a comedy show and you don’t know how it works.
Are you honestly saying that a comedian should cede control when some chucklehead in the audience tries to take over the show? Are hecklers supposed to be invited on the stage and given mic time so they can lecture the comedian and the audience about why they are awful people who are on the moral level of Pol Pot for laughing at something offensive?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Hypatia’s Momma: Yeah, I know you’re stupid. You don’t have to make it explicit.
Good luck removing comedy from the world. That will make everything better. Once those thought-criminals Louis C.K. and Danial Tosh are properly made un-persons, we can just watch as rape becomes a thing of the barbaric past.
Hypatia's Momma
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Where did anyone try to take over a comedy show?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Hypatia’s Momma: THAT’S WHAT HECKLING IS YOU FUCKING MORON.
Hypatia's Momma
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
I think I see the problem you’re having.
Ok, so you need to go to the top of your browser window, up in the left-hand corner.
Select ‘tools’ and a drop-down list will appear.
Select ‘options’ and then the ‘content’ tab.
Here, you need to uncheck the “Show Arguments That Aren’t Actually There” box.
There! Now try reading what has been said, not what the little voices tell you.
Glenn
This is 100% about heckling, which is why other comics are backing him up.
If she didn’t like it she should have left, not opened her mouth and heckled. Then she would have been fine to blog about it or picket or start a “get Tosh off Comedy Central” campaign.
Don’t heckle – if you do expect to get hit, HARD, with anything that will allow the comic to keep control of the show. That’s what happened.
Tosh took one professional approach to get her to shut up and stop disrupting his show – he went nuclear IMMEDIATELY. I’ve seen other comics do this, and I don’t blame him.
If the hecklers take control (and I’ve seen this happen) they just lose the room and it’s awful for the comic. For the audience it can be kind of funny though…
Hypatia's Momma
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
No one was heckling. Did you not read the OP, any of the posts or any of the links before jumping in with a lot of addled nonsense?
Harry
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
It’s not nice to mock those with special needs.
Some sensitivity is required.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Hypatia’s Momma: Wait, so you didn’t say this? There is no “cult of victimhood” when someone says that rape is not a topic for joking. You want to make jokes about you being raped? Rock on. But don’t tell others who’ve been raped that they should just shut up and sit down.
No, actually, when you’re at a comedy show, and you feel like you need to lecture the comic about something, you’re supposed to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. That is how comedy clubs work.
If you don’t like a joke, then boo it. If you really think it goes to far, then you leave, complain to the manager, and get your money back. Taking over the show to berate the comic and audience for joking about the wrong topic makes you a gigantic asshole, and that seems to be what you’re advocating here. Well, that and holding an eternal grudge against any comic who ever crosses the line.
Hypatia's Momma
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
If you’d actually been paying attention, then you’d have noticed that was a direct response to an individual here, in this conversation.
No, really, you should try to stick with actual facts, not things you’re just making up.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Hypatia’s Momma: Yeah, I read it. She heckled Tosh. By definition. That is what heckling is. Good FSM, have I fallen into the Twilight Zone where disrupting a comedy show by yelling at the comic is somehow not heckling?
@Harry: Oooh, that’s it. I apologize for my insensitivity, and will remove myself to a reeducation camp immediately.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Hypatia’s Momma: It was a direct response, so… you didn’t actually mean what you wrote? How is directly quoting you “making things up”?
I’m starting to understand why you hate comedians so much.
Mattminus
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
In fairness, most people go to a comedy club hoping for some stern harridan to give them a lecture about 2nd wave academic feminism.
Hypatia's Momma
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
So, you read my saying to KeithG, “Don’t tell other rape victims to shut up and sit down” and from that you inferred I hate all comedians and am advocating taking over the mic and berating the audience and the comic?
Ok!
mantis
@Hypatia’s Momma:
One might be lead into thinking that individuals have different experiences, based on gender, race, age, location, education, social background, and culture.
Which was why I asked you your location, which you apparently think is relevant, except when you don’t.
Yeah. It’s like, my downstairs neighbor told me about how she grew up being called all sorts of racial slurs and still has to deal with them. But I don’t hear any of this personally, so she’s probably either lying or just unlucky.
There is a difference between having to deal with racism (or rape jokes) from some people and claiming that everyone around you makes rape jokes all the time, as you did. And for the record I never claimed you were lying. I wondered what possible circumstances could you have lived under where everyone you know constantly makes rape jokes. Your answer? Earth. There are a lot of places on Earth where rape jokes are very uncommon. Maybe you should visit one once and spend some time away from the misogynist hellhole you apparently live in.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Hypatia’s Momma: I didn’t infer a thing. I read what you wrote and took it at face value.
You know nothing about stand-up comedy, and you’re making an ass of yourself by talking about it.
Have you ever been in front of a crown that you have to keep entertained? Seriously, I think you’re suffering from a severe lack of empathy here.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@mantis: She’s like the Tom Joad of rape jokes. Whenever somebody in the world makes a rape joke, she’ll be there. Whenever some poor heckler doesn’t get the respect they’re due, she’ll be there. Whenever Louis C.K. gets another TV series, she’ll be there.
LanceThruster
@hitchhiker: So…it’s funny here because Tosh “was asking for it,” right?
At least the Onion kept him in character (“You have to admit, this is pretty hilarious,”) because he did say rape jokes are *always* funny.
EmmATX
My god. I usually only lurk, but I had to comment on the suffocating dude privilege in this thread. Seriously, if you think “wouldn’t it be funny if she got raped by 5 guys right now?” is an appropriate response even to the most obnoxious heckler (which I don’t agree that she was), there is not much hope for you.
He singled her out to threaten her with gang rape in front of an entire room full of laughing dudebros. If, as a man, you don’t think you would feel threatened by that, grow some empathy and think how a woman, who is ACTUALLY very likely to be raped in her lifetime (and it’s completely possible she had already been raped), would feel about that.
Everyone commenting here should read the Jezebel article and think on it before commenting further. http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke