I don’t know much about this religion, but one thing I learned recently is the Mormon Church is really good at making money:
Mormons make up only 1.4 percent of the U.S. population, but the church’s holdings are vast. First among its for-profit enterprises is DMC, which reaps estimated annual revenue of $1.2 billion from six subsidiaries, according to the business information and analysis firm Hoover’s Company Records (DNB). Those subsidiaries run a newspaper, 11 radio stations, a TV station, a publishing and distribution company, a digital media company, a hospitality business, and an insurance business with assets worth $3.3 billion.
They own land, “about 1 million acres in the continental U.S.” worth over over $1 billion. And then there’s their foreign holdings:
Outside the U.S., AgReserves operates in Britain, Canada, Australia, Mexico, Argentina, and Brazil. Its Australian property, valued at $61 million in 1997, has estimated annual sales of $276 million, according to Dun & Bradstreet.
And they own non-profits including “the Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC), a 42-acre tropical theme park on Oahu’s north shore that hosts luaus, canoe rides, and tours through seven simulated Polynesian villages.” That’s worth some $70 million. PCC’s president earns a cool $296,000 annual for running it. Hawaii finally insisted they pay state taxes but they get to skip out on federal taxes on “claims to be a ‘living museum’ and an education-oriented charity that employs students who work at the center to pay their way through church-run Brigham Young University-Hawaii.” In fact, as a church, they get to skip out on a lot of taxes, even those related to profits from their commercial properties. Also they “don’t pay taxes on donated funds and holdings.”
A recent Reuters investigation estimated “the LDS Church is likely worth $40 billion today and collects up to $8 billion in tithing each year.” Last spring, they spent $2 billion of that wealth building a mega-mall across the street from their giant Salt Lake City temple.
The mall includes a retractable glass roof, 5,000 underground parking spots, and nearly 100 stores and restaurants, ranging from Tiffany’s (TIF) to Forever 21. Walkways link the open-air emporium with the church’s perfectly manicured headquarters on Temple Square.
Meanwhile, SoBeale flags a piece on one of their other business ventures, “one of the most active and unregulated gun sale websites in America.” KSL.com runs “classified adverts which allow individuals to buy and sell handguns and other firearms without proper background checks and no questions asked.”
They list an inventory of some 6,000 items including high caliber guns. A spokesman for the website says well, they put a disclaimer on the site advising people to follow the appropriate gun laws and not to sell to kids. So they figure they’re covered.
“The responsibility for the transaction is that of the parties involved,” Mr Atkinson added. “This is just like any other transaction, a vehicle, a lawnmower, a bicycle.”
Yes, that’s exactly the same as selling Glocks, Smith & Wessons and Sigs to any random anonymous maniac with an internet connection. Guess we know now where Slippery Mitt learned his business ethics.
Face
Every time I turn on my lappy there’s a new FPer here.
Mormons are a business first, religon second. Full stop.
Bago
Craigsguns.com?
Villago Delenda Est
“Business ethics” seems to be like “corporate responsibility” and “military intelligence.”
A natural oxymoron.
Culture of Truth
I read that article. I couldn’t help but draw a link between the complexity of the LDS holdings and the way both Bain and Mitt, Inc. structure their holdings.
SiubhanDuinne
Libby Spencer, I must have missed your joining up as front-pager ( or are you subbing for DougJ?) but I certainly know your name and am glad to have you here.
So, when are you going to tell us about your pets? HUH?
Ben Franklin
I’ve ben to PCC. Went for the phoney luau, where they show you the Imu pit, then pull the pork from a gas oven. No alcohol is served…(WTF..at a luau?) but you can get coffee.
Mormons don’t impose their curious values on non-Mormons.
trollhattan
Guns and healthcare are consumer “goods” that don’t fit the traditional models. Why is the first “protected” and the second under continual assault?
Also, too, aren’t Mormons heavily into the supplement industry–the one that can’t/shouldn’t be regulated by gummint?
rikyrah
they are not a church.
they are a money grubbing cult.
a church doesn’t give less than ONE PERCENT of what they have to CHARITY.
yes, you read right.
LESS THAN ONE PERCENT.
what kind of CHURCH gives LESS THAN ONE PERCENT TO CHARITY FOR OTHERS?
Evolving Deep Southerner
Every mainstream religion has vast holdings. What is it that bothers you so especially about the LDS? Because they’ve got more holdings per supplicant than the Catholics or the Baptists or whatever?
rikyrah
and, they should be taxed.
Mr Stagger Lee
I remember reading Donald Trump’s book about the death of one of his casino executives and talking about the fact the dead man was a Mormon and thinking WTF? I also hear that many Mormons can work in the gambling business as long they don’t engage in the act directly. Also when Howard Hughes died I seem to recall his enterprises were staffed with Mormons, some good money there also.
FoxinSocks
I’ve been to the Polynesian Cultural Center. One of the creepiest places I’ve ever been to, and I like haunted houses.
I was excited to go, as I was really enjoying my time in Hawaii and wanted to learn more about the people and culture. Now, most people speak highly of the park, so I don’t know why it was different for me and my Mom.
First of all, the employees were all watching us very carefully. It was bizarre. I thought it was just my imagination, but Mom whispered to me, asking why the employees were staring at us like wolves and we were tasty sheep.
Then this elderly gentleman came over and talked to my Mom. He had zero interest in me, it was like I didn’t exist. I guess there’s a Mormon temple on the grounds or something like that, because he invited Mom on a tour of the temple. We definitely thought he was proselytizing and he was really, really, intent on it, which is when we slowly backed out of the park and high-tailed it out of town. I can’t adequately describe the creepy vibe. It reached Lost-levels of weirdness. Like the folks at the PCC were going to declare Mom their lost god or angel or whatnot and then sacrifice her to a volcano.
BTW-I know plenty of Mormons and they’re not crazy like that, so I don’t know what was going on. Maybe it was just a PCC thing.
Yutsano
@rikyrah: A cult. Yes I said it.
gnomedad
@Face:
Well, stop it. This is getting confusing.
freelancer
Fucking Yikes.
Every gun website I’ve ever heard of strictly sell weapons online and ships them to a Federal Firearm License (FFL) holder or dealer. At this point you are required to go through whatever regulatory check your state has set up.
This looks to be a user to user direct sale classified. That is insanely scary.
Amir Khalid
How does this compare with, say, the Catholic Church’s holdings in America? Can any Juicer enlighten the group?
trollhattan
@FoxinSocks:
Yeesh, could have been the opening sequence for an “X Files” episode.
Pro tip: If mom sends a brochure for the Creation Museum and suggests a trip there–be busy that month.
Cluttered Mind
@Yutsano: Mormons are 19th century Scientologists. Simple as that.
Narcissus
Wait who in the hell are you?
I mean that in the nice way
Ben Franklin
How does this compare with, say, the Catholic Church’s holdings in America?
A mystery wrapped in an enigma. No-one-knows—–but we should
Hypatia's Momma
@freelancer:
I don’t know much about Federal gun sale regulations: Is that legal?
trollhattan
@Cluttered Mind:
They do both feature the “from another planet” thing. I don’t know if Hubbard was as driven by the pursuit of getting laid as Smith was, but there’s a lot they don’t want us to know about Hubbard.
freelancer
@Hypatia’s Momma:
IANAL, but it’s baffling to me how this is legal.
piratedan
@rikyrah: because they consider themselves a “charity”. They just make a choice to handle those things “internally” so there’s no reason for them to disclose anything… so they do have that omerta thing down.
Raven
@freelancer: During the holidays we were driving between Lynchburg and Roanoke. There was a flea market on the highway and we stopped. Dude had AR 15’s, AK’s and assorted long guns on a table. In Virginia an individual can sell what ever they want to whenever they want to.
Hypatia's Momma
@freelancer:
Sale of arms across state lines without following state regulations?
Raven
@Hypatia’s Momma: This will kill them with the 27%!
PeakVT
If a religious organization wants to run businesses, that’s fine by me, just so long as they don’t try to hide them in the tax-exempt part.
Mr Stagger Lee
@rikyrah: Well I will give them credit they do have Deseret Industries an Mormon version of Goodwill, as well as their version of the United Way. They will also pay most of the tuition for the members of the LDS to attend BYU University system, or so I heard.
FoxinSocks
@trollhattan:
Ha! The thing is, it was MY idea to go to the PCC. So as we raced out of town, Mom (who’s a devout deist) was shouting at me that she’d never listen to any of my hare-brained suggestions ever again.
Raven
@Mr Stagger Lee: “hey will also pay most of the tuition for the members of the LDS to attend BYU University system, or so I heard.”
Big fucking deal. Liberty U pays tuition for idiots that want to go there too.
pseudonymous in nc
@Culture of Truth:
You and me both. Bury something in enough subsidiaries and you can miraculously transform it into something else.
Jager
Yes, on the Mormon BS!
The only time an old friend of mine says he was truly screwed in a business transaction was when he bought a business from a Mormon in Salt Lake City. Two sets of books, crooked management, the whole deal. When they walked out of court(he won) he button holed the seller and said to him, “You tried to fuck me over because I wasn’t a Mormon, right?” The seller just smiled and walked away.
the dude
I effing loved KSL classifieds when I was in Salt Lake City for a few years; bought and sold heaps of shiz. Same with Deseret Industries (the LDS thrift store) — the local population had a big ‘donate to charity’ ethos so I was picking up heaps of choice vinyl records for $1 on a regular basis.
If there’s a problem with selling firearms on KSL (I really wouldn’t know the rules, being a dirty furriner) I assume it will be fixed soon.
geg6
@Ben Franklin:
Well, I detest the Catholic Church, but they sure give a lot more than 1% to charitable works. Unlike, say, the Mormon cult does. They are the model for Scientogy, if that gives you any idea.
TBogg
My daughter told me that, when they played at BYU-Hawaii, they were instructed by the BYU people that they couldn’t pull off their sweaty soccer jerseys on the field after the game (even though they all wore sports bras) because it wasn’t “proper”. They had to go into the privacy of their bus.
Wouldn’t want to inflame a BYU boys loins with a sweaty sports bra.
FuriousPhil
Church of LDS seems to be the best tax-free scam going for a while now. All the while, they tap into the “LOWER TAXES LESS GUMMINT” thing, because that’s how they make all their money.
As William Murderface once said, “Religion…It’s all the same…” and then proceeded to go to the bar.
Hypatia's Momma
@Raven:
I’d think it would kill them with the ATF, which is why I’m curious.
Cacti
I’ve been saying this for weeks now, but Mitt’s financial secrecy is 100% informed by his Mormonism.
The LDS church practices ZERO financial accountability to its membership or the public at large.
gbear
And they were also really good at spending their money and providing members on the ground to get Proposition 8 passed in CA, taking away the rights of same-sex couples to marry.
And to address a comment above, this compares equally to the Catholic church.
Fuck them both (except for the progressive Nuns).
Cacti
@Evolving Deep Southerner:
Every mainstream religion does not have a business empire that would place it in the top 25% of the Fortune 500 if they were a for-profit concern.
gbear
@the dude: What kind of cool records would you find at a Mormon thrift store??
Libby Spencer
Sorry. Got distracted. Post ran long and I forgot to remind you who I am. Yes, DougJ slipped me the spare key on his way out. But shhhh. Don’t tell John Cole. I’m afraid he might change the locks.
trollhattan
@FoxinSocks:
Now that’s funny. Score one for mom!
Lolis
I have been to a Mormon Church one time in my life. I was in college and my cousin had returned from a mission so he was being recognized. The man at the front literally said, “You need to obey your church leaders.” It really creeped me out because I had been to a bunch of churches at that point, and none ever said that. Mormons are taught not to question authority and to submit to power no matter what. It is creepy and explains the way behave better than anything else.
Cacti
Another small example of how LDS Inc. fleeces the flock…
After going through the Temple endowment ceremony, you are obliged to wear the temple garment (aka “magic underwear”) for the rest of your life.
Only place to obtain said underwear or replacements through the years? Beehive clothing, wholly owned and operated by the LDS church.
trollhattan
@Libby Spencer:
Tunch will learn you how to pick them. I’ll bet some human thinks the kitteh treats (i.e., anything edible) are locked up.
geg6
@gbear:
As I mentioned above, I hate the red beanie cult, perhaps more than anyone you can name. But the Mormons are a whole other level of greedheaded sick fucks. The Catholics are pikers when it comes to sexual abuse compared to the Mormons. But since it’s only females that the Mormons abuse, no one gives a shit.
gbear
@Libby Spencer: He’ll just write a post about how much money the Mormon Church has in an hour or two…
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Culture of Truth: Quite the coincidence, isn’t it. Rmoney learned it at the temple, and put it to good use (for him) at Bain and beyond.
Kyle
@Jager:
This has been the experience of several of my relatives, who having been burned more than once will never do business with a Mormon again.
In practice their culture has no sanction against cheating non-Mormons, in fact they seem to regard it as a sport, scoring points for their team against non-Mormon society. Which does not bode well for the country if Rmoney makes the USA his next strip-and-flip vulture capitalism project.
JGabriel
__
__
@Libby Spencer: Jesus, Libby, you go away for a year, you don’t write, you don’t call …
Anyway, welcome back! Good to see you round these parts again.
.
Mike G
@gbear:
The Osmonds haven’t ever been cool.
Libby Spencer
@Culture of Truth: Had the same reaction. The business models are nearly identical. That’s why I held onto the link for so long.
Olivia
The only churches that don’t sit on piles of money and treasure are the ones who do what Jesus expected them to. Those churches feed, clothe, and house the poor and do what they can to help the downtrodden. They do not belong to big rich organized religions and they usually end up going broke.
lamh35
President Obama speaking at hospital after he had spoken over 2 1/2 hours with victims families and survivors.
http://youtu.be/C2n4TUBBJGg
Libby Spencer
@JGabriel: Thanks. And btw, I’m not a FP. Just passing through while Doug is away.
Gin & Tonic
@Libby Spencer: I was hoping you stole DougJ’s extra key from that twit Isquith.
Nellcote
So how many Bain vultures are Mormon? Was it a condition of employment?
Libby Spencer
@gbear: That would be perfect. I don’t think he knows I’m here. So let’s not tell him…
the Conster
@Gin & Tonic:
Libby has a higher probability of voting for Obama.
RossInDetroit, Rational Subjectivist
@Libby Spencer:
Don’t forget to troll the readers in the comments. DougJ has several alter egos he uses to make sure our blood pressure doesn’t drop too low.
And welcome! Now about those pets…
phoebes-in-santa fe
Okay, here’s what I don’t understand about Mormons and our reaction to them. The senator from my state is a Mormon and I had no trouble voting for him. I’d also vote for Harry Reid if I lived in Nevada, and there’s a young guy running for Congress in one of the western state who looks fabulous, and he’s a Mormon. BUT, they are all Democrats.
So, are only Republican Mormons odious? Do the Democratic Mormons not follow the same religious beliefs the Republican ones do? I honestly am curious about this.
Horatius
Lyndon Johnson would have buried Willard by tying his Mormonism around his neck. Obama may be running a great campaign, but his staff can’t hold the jock of Landslide Lyndon’s.
Citizen Alan
@Evolving Deep Southerner:
You know, when you put it like that, that DOES sound like something to be bothered about. Personally, I say tax them all like the for-profit businesses they obviously are. It’s ludicrous that a vacation theme park in Hawaii can get away with a huge tax deduction like the LDS does. I’m surprised Disney hasn’t bought into this racket by founding a Church of Mickey Mouse and putting a few token chapels up at its theme parks.
RossInDetroit, Rational Subjectivist
@Citizen Alan:
Magic Kingdom already has the right ring to it.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@freelancer:Scary is an understatement.
Another Halocene Human
@Bago: Your internet will be shipped in brown packing paper on the morn.
Anya
Hey Libby, welcome back! I was afraid we scared you off last time DougJ asked you to sub for him. Good to see you back.
Citizen Alan
@Raven:
While I have no love for the LDS, my understanding is that BYU is superior to Liberty by several orders of magnitude.
Libby Spencer
@Gin & Tonic: Yikes. Why so harsh? I barely know Isquith but I like him so far.
IrishGirl
@Kyle: I have noticed that too. They have a belief in the virtue of avoiding giving money to the government and taking it by swindling government programs. It is called “Bleeding the Beast”.
jwb
@Libby Spencer: He introduced himself by condescendingly saying that he would “probably” deign to vote for Obama.
Libby Spencer
@Anya: Thanks. Feels good to delurk for a bit and say hi to everybody. I’m often here. Listening. Just rarely have time to stop and talk.
Another Halocene Human
@RossInDetroit, Rational Subjectivist: Hm, didn’t Hubbard already beat them to it in SoCal? Except, fuck the hoi polloi, the Squirrel-Baiter-in-Chief only wants to hobnob with movie stars.
Another Halocene Human
@Cacti: Only place to obtain said underwear or replacements through the years? Beehive clothing, wholly owned and operated by the LDS church.
F— me, I had no idea that GARMIES were not cut and sewn at home by good Mormon housewives. You mean you buy them from the church like dumfuk KKKlanners bought those “silk” doofus-habits from the Grand Wizard (snigger)? And the name of the Mormon Ollivander’s is BEEHIVE? YOU MEAN THE HAREM WHERE BRIGHAM BROUGHT ‘EM????
Too fucking funny.
geg6
@Citizen Alan:
How, exactly? I’ve never met or heard of any great minds or researchers graduating from BYU. Business people, maybe, but that doesn’t really mean anything since all business schools graduate nothing but MOUs who, as we have seen, are no better than the uneducated grifters and criminals the
Mafia turns out. Hell, gimme a Mafia don who, at least, has values beyond IGMFU.
Gin & Tonic
@Libby Spencer: Came in here with a pretentious post about how he was a “lifelong” follower of politics or something (although calling himself a 20-something) and averred that he’d “probably” vote for Obama. I guess too bad Ralph Fucking Nader’s not running again. Then disappeared, not responding to comments, just like that other pretentious LoOG-ie Kain (now I’m sounding like m_c).
Other recent FP’ers engage in the comments and don’t write like they know everything.
sdhays
@Citizen Alan:
Knowing Disney, I’m sure that they have considered this and would do it immediately if they thought they could avoid a backlash.
danielx
Mormons are very good at making money; I spent a couple of years with a Mormon guy as my boss. Guy drove me crazy, but I confess a certain amount of reluctant admiration – he could have fallen into a cesspool and come out smelling like Chanel Number Five and holding a gold bar in his teeth. It’s sort of a religious thing; they’re supposed to go out and make lots of money. Helps convince the rubes that God smiles on Mormons, plus all that money to donate to the church. What could be better?
@freelancer:
Yup. I’m surprised that BATF hasn’t been on this like a wet blanket, considering that sale mechanisms like this were (I thought) outlawed by the Firearms Control Act of 1968. Face to face sales between individuals are generally legal, depending on state law, but a web site facilitating such? Uh-uh. The other web sites require that transfers take place through licensed dealers with the usual background check.
Another Halocene Human
@IrishGirl: There are plenty of evangelical fundamentalists who have glommed onto this meme. It’s a way to justify going on welfare, which state they got to by their own choices, but that would make them like those slutty slut slut lazy black whores, so it’s reframed as resistance against the evil secular state.
Mark S.
My girlfriend’s family is Mormon. Their ward is pretty generous to poor people who are Mormon; I don’t think they do shit for non-Mormons. What really surprised me, though, is that the Church doesn’t support their missionaries at all. I’m also pretty sure they don’t pay their bishops, and they sure as hell don’t pay anyone else who works in their local churches. Those octogenarian assholes in SLC just hoover up all that tithing. It’s a huge fucking scam.
Another Halocene Human
@Citizen Alan: BYU is like those Catholic colleges that wanted the prestige of being a real school and belatedly found out that there were academics occurring within the walls–stoppit!! STOPPITT! We will have order! Obey! Obey or be punished!
I understand the undergrad culture is crazy enough to make Catholic University seem laid back and progressive, though.
Another Halocene Human
@Mark S.: What really surprised me, though, is that the Church doesn’t support their missionaries at all.
Not really. They’ve ALWAYS been about each family being “self-sufficient” (read: the Profits will bleed you dry) and in the church, some pigs are DEFINITELY more equal than others.
The FLDS is just an extreme version of this.
Another Halocene Human
@Mark S.: Those octogenarian assholes in SLC just hoover up all that tithing.
Hence the name, Profits.
It’s a huge fucking scam.
Just as willie-wangler and President-fer-life-E-meritus of the Western NYS Liar’s Club Joseph Smith and the Natty Narcissist Brigham Young ran it back in the olden days.
Do you know why Mormons don’t drink beer? It’s because Brigham couldn’t tolerate anyone making any money. He didn’t want a cut. He wanted it ALL. One of the most successful Mormon families in Utah were brewers so he shut. them. down.
daverave
Back thirty years ago when me and mrs. daverave were doing the backpacking through Asia thing for a year or so, we spent an afternoon at the oldest Buddhist temple in Thailand. As we were leaving, a couple of real white American kids in white shirts and ties came up to the main gate and started the heavy Mormon proselytizing thing on the Buddhists that were coming and going.
To my eternal regret, I didn’t ask the kids what they thought would happen if a couple of saffron-robed, shaved-head, Buddhist monks tried the same thing in front of the LDS temple in SLC and whether they thought it was appropriate there in Thailand.
Culture of Truth
Amir Khalid Says:
How does this compare with, say, the Catholic Church’s holdings in America? Can any Juicer enlighten the group?
For one, the LDS run for-profit businesses
WaterGirl
@Libby Spencer: Glad to have you back. I liked your posts when you were here last time.
Edit: I am learning a lot of creepy stuff from this post and the comments. Not sure if that’s a good thing or not!
Libby Spencer
@Gin & Tonic: He’s young. I was thinking he was probably just nervous.
AnotherBruce
The Osmonds haven’t ever been cool.
“Crazy Horses” was real cutting edge stuff. I think it inspired the Sex Pistols.
richrazz
Just a few comments from a regular Balloon Juice reader who is also a Utah Mormon:
Yes, Mitt Romney is a Mormon. Harry Reid, Larry Echohawk, and Jon Huntsman, Jr are also Mormons. Rocky Anderson used to be one. There are liberal Mormons and conservative Mormons, just like in every other religion. For example, check out this group https://www.facebook.com/groups/mormonsforobama/
The way Mitt Romney carried out his sleazy Bain dealings was not anything I ever learned in Mormon Sunday School. Mitt went to Harvard Business School, which explains as much about his way of doing business as anything does.
@Jager – I’m sorry you were burned by a Mormon in a business deal. I was too. I’ve also had really great business dealings with Mormons. I guess it depends on ethics, just like with every other person.
The LDS Church does have a lot of financial holdings, but not every member of the LDS Church agrees with how the church spends money either.
I’m surprised at the level of bigotry and ignorant generalizations in the majority of the comments here. Replace “Jew” or “Muslim” for “Mormon” in each negative posting and you’ll realize how weird it sounds. “Cult and “19th century Scientologist” are easy terms to throw around when you don’t what you’re talking about.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@IrishGirl: that would explain the assiduous detail to tax avoidance practiced by Rmoney, also known as among the many reasons he will fight beyond reason to keep the returns from public view.
Gin & Tonic
@Libby Spencer: That’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day.
Chet
@Kyle: You know who else refused to do business with the members of a particular religion?
Another Halocene Human
@Culture of Truth: The RCC believes in having masses of miserable, poor persons the better to find juicy child rape victims among.
Actually, the LDS creates a lot of poverty too. The elites (like Mitt) are a different breed (literally, lol) from the masses of suckers who are kept busy all week with Mormon meetings, poor with dues and tithes and get rich quick MLM schemes and special fees and stocking up for
the coming race warwho knows the fuck what, beat down with a thousand snubs and exhortations to hustlehustlehustle and not-so-subtle reminders of their less-than-godly social inferiority.The prophet Nostradumbass
@geg6:
Ian Paisley. (you did say “perhaps”)
PeakVT
@phoebes-in-santa fe: Good question. I poked around and here’s one short article on why there are Mormon Democrats.
Another Halocene Human
Remember, the RCC experienced its period of growth and power during a time when the mercantile economy, such as it was, had collapsed, in which there was little money, and such money there was was bad, interregional trade was nigh impossible, illiteracy, ignorance, and almost constant warring made any attempt at improving such circumstances impossible. The merchant class arose centuries later, and with it, the need for ever-increasingly creative methods of torture as a tool of social control. Putting on gaudy robes and declaring oneself Emperor of the Pit is deep in the RCC DNA, whereas running a business, even by sharp practice, is not.
Look at the way the Vatican is being run today, if all the leaks and rumors are to be believed. The phrase “fucking joke” comes to mind.
the dude
@gbear:What kind of cool records would you find at a Mormon thrift store??
Heaps. Just gotta sort through the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and other LDS and country records but I got some cool Blue Notes, lots of sought-after RCA Living Stereo classical LPS, lots of the usual classic rock, and lots of 80s synth pop surprisingly. The most puzzling find was a Never Mind The Bollocks LP at an LDS church yard sale.
Another Halocene Human
RCC: spend years convincing gullible children that they’re going to HEEYEEEeeeeeEEELLLLLLL, then extort monthly fees from congregants on the theory that this will get their relatives out of hell more quickly. Relies on a) believing in things unseen and b) giving that much of a shit about one’s loved ones, assuming they were loved, which may explain why remittances were never all that great, to the grief of redecorating Popes.
Mormon Church: start up MLM schemes, spend a few hundred thou packing the rubes into seminars and distributing videocassettes, then sit back while the millions roll in. Relies on a) fear, b) greed, c) envy (of the founder’s very real and seen Rolls, multi-million$ mansion, and fancy duds.
Look, the RCC are just one step above underpants gnomes when it comes to exploiting their virulent meme for dosh.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Another Halocene Human: I think I read somewhere that back in the day (1950s?) you could buy magic underwear at JC Penney or out of the Sears catalog. Apparently the cult then recognized it was missing a monopoly.
Another Halocene Human
@richrazz: There is an attitude–by no means confined to Mormons–among certain adherents of your religion that fucking non-Mormons in business is perfectly okay. I think that’s a fair grist for criticism.
Playing up xenophobia and hardening this kind of in-group/out-group borderline sociopathic behavior is one of the shittiest aspects of organized religion, in my humble opinion.
I’ve also found in my experience that religions vary greatly in the degree to which they, for lack of a better phrase, do not treat non-adherents as their neighbor.
I think it’s also fair to point out something that may get forgotten in the shuffle which is that there are a good number of Mormons in Western states outside of Utah whose affiliation with the LDS as an organization is loose at best. There’s even a group that doesn’t recognize the legitimacy of the current LDS Profit.
Another Halocene Human
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Gah, I guess that’s less creepy than the shit the RCC sells/licenses. They run The Ghoulishest Place(s) on Earth, complete with souvenirs of all your favorite dead saints.
Check out the gift shop at the “National” Cathedral in DC (the Catholic one, not the Episcopalian “National” Cathedral). Disney for the catacomb set.
SBJules
@Mr Stagger Lee:
Howard Hughes always hired Mormons although he wasn’t a mormon. I knew a guy at BYU who spent the summer standing around Howard’s hotel in Las Vegas, I think the Desert Inn.
Another Halocene Human
@PeakVT: Ugh, page one quickly devolved into apology, question-begging, and appeals to authority. Too tired for this.
Religion stops a functioning brain.
clayton
@Face: She was here before and you all trashed her.
You all can’t even remember shit, but cry about voters not remembering anything.
You rock Libby.
Hypatia's Momma
Link to ATF faq
You can buy a gun in another state but it has to be shipped to a licensed dealer in your state, who must comply with state and federal law. So that might cover internet sales. If they are shipping guns directly to a buyer who is not a licensed dealer, then I think they are breaking federal law. However, I’m not at all familiar with gun law and so I might be misinterpreting this.
Libby Spencer
@WaterGirl: Appreciate the welcome.
Cain
Gosh guys, is Mormons the next “Jew”?
Every Mormon I’ve met has been very respectful. I met some Mormon Nuns in college who spoke to me, and they were respectful adn they even listened to my Hindu beliefs (or whatever that was at the time..)
Since action speaks louder than words to me, I don’t have any problems with Mormons as individuals, but in general I don’t trust organized religions since as we can all see there is nothing spiritual about organizations who come together for a materialistic goal. Power corrupts absolutely, and if you’re living in the material plane, then it will be very hard to be spiritual. It’s why most religions preach that you should not hold on to your materialistic things.
murakami
@phoebes-in-santa fe:
Mormons outside of Utah tend to be pretty relaxed for the most part. Hell, the ones I knew inside of Utah were mostly great too. But outside of Utah, assuming they weren’t Utah expats, they tended to be Democrats, didn’t hide their religion but didn’t talk about it much either. Just ordinary people.
I would have trusted most of the Utah Mormons with my life. But, if a Utah businessman came to me with a great deal, I’d run away screaming. As soon as a profit motive is introduced into the relationship, there’s no trust possible. This was true even with the Utah ex-Mormon business guys I knew. 90% are liars and scum.
I don’t know what Romney’s excuse is since he wasn’t a Utah Mormon. His dad wasn’t that way.
pseudonymous in nc
@Mark S.:
To be fair, the Baptist Church of Bumfuck probably doesn’t distribute its “charitable giving” beyond its flock, but because the LDS is a monolithic and hierarchical org, a bit like the Roman Catholics if they were run by MBA reactionaries in suits rather than dodgy reactionaries in frocks, its insular approach to “charity” manifests itself as a multi-layered corporate entity.
That insularity is born from a not-hugely-ancient history of being actively and pretty brutally persecuted — and though there was a bit of persecutin’ back, the comparison to Scientology falls down a lot when you think of the treatment of Mormons on their way westwards.
What you can say is that the LDS is a pure product of America.
murakami
I’m not surprised good records are to be found in DI (Deseret Industries). Mormons aren’t like the fundies you all know and love. They don’t segregate themselves from popular culture. They tend to be unassuming about their religion. If you grew up with fundies like I did, then you would think the Mormons were practically normal people by comparison.
Anyways, when I used to work in Provo, there were a bunch of BYU students who were part-timers and I’d talk with them about the latest indie and alternative bands just like I could with any other college student in the country. They might have been married at 20 and might have been wearing the funny underwear, but they craved the funky beats like any other student and their religion didn’t tell them to stop. And many of them continued to watch R-rated flicks even after the church said that was a no-no. They’re not all robots. Far from it, really.
murakami
What’s a bit ironic about the conservative, Republican-voting bloc of Utah Mormons is that they practice a sort of socialism to this day.
Their tithes do not entirely vanish into the black coffers of the church. Some of it flows back to help members in need. I don’t know how much the church helped in the big crisis of 2008-present, but in the smaller recessions of 2000-2002, the church did provide food, paid bills, and paid monthly mortgage requirements for families who were on their last legs. Each local church had procedures in place to identify those in need and would act accordingly.
Joey Maloney
@Bago: Yes, and I’m sure any second now there will be a nationwide outcry against the illegal activity potentially taking place in the DMC classifieds. Just like Craigslist’s adult sections, state AGs will be climbing over each other to jump on the bandwagon to sue them for any crime they can, no matter how tenuously connected. And we’ll even be treated to ad buys featuring sobbing young women who will assert that without this online market, they would never have been penetrated by that bullet.
Yep. Any second now.
Mnemosyne
I remember visiting the Polynesian Cultural Center when I was about 16 and vacationing in Hawaii with my parents. I really enjoyed it since it mostly seemed to involve lots of muscular Polynesian guys not wearing very much smiling at the tourists. It’s the kind of place made for Sarah P&T to write one of her fantasias about.
I developed a mad crush on a guy who was Maori but still have never managed to get to New Zealand. Oh well.
murakami
@Cain:
In Spanish Fork, a group of people wanted to build a temple to Krishna but kept running into problems with funding. The Mormons provided both cash and labor to help them finish. Spanish Fork, by the way, is in Utah County which is essentially the heart of Mormon culture.
It’s yet another way they are very different than Baptists or other fundies. Baptists not only would not have helped but they probably would have shown up in groups to protest and to pray for the temple’s destruction.
maya
Surprised no one has brought up Mormon expertise in genealogy.
Mnemosyne
@murakami:
It does sometimes seem that Mormons are torn between wanting to be (and thus sympathizing with) a minority religion and wanting full mainstream acceptance as a Protestant sect just like Lutheranism or Methodism.
It’s very odd how both Mormons and Catholics are doing their best to become indistinguishable from right-wing Protestants. I don’t get it.
clayton
They also wear the flag as underwear.
Whidby
They have listings for “high caliber” guns?
That sounds double extra scary. When are finally going to come to our senses in this country and outlaw the 600 nitro express that is used in so many crimes? When?
murakami
@Mnemosyne:
The Mormons seem to have a high level of tolerance, and they’re also incredibly pragmatic which is both good and bad in terms of what they do.
So they’re smart enough to realize that protesting or ignoring the Hindus / Krishna Consciousness people in Spanish Fork would help their cause very little. However, helping those people out is a huge PR win and might cause some of the temple followers to later convert. It’s a very smart and pragmatic play on the part of the LDS.
But it’s also emblematic about how they do things. On my first trip to SLC, I went to the temple grounds and an older missionary couple attached themselves to me and guided me around all the sights. They were incredibly charming and had interesting stories about the history of the place, so I didn’t mind. At the end of it, they handed me a Book of Mormon and the man said “Just take it home and read as much as you can. Then, next week, come back and tell me ‘This book was awful!'” And that was so unexpected and charming and so unlike what any fundie would say about the Bible, I think I was briefly tempted to convert on the spot, despite an adulthood of atheism. Again, really brilliant and pragmatic outreach and PR.
So yeah, the LDS are a weird mix. They’re as fervently conservative as any Baptist, and yet they’re almost as outwardly tolerant (about other beliefs) as a Methodist or a Unitarian. They vote Republican, at least in Utah, but they also have a sort of collectivism as part of their core ideology. They’re one of the most interesting religions in the country. Amazingly evil in some ways and amazingly good in others.
suzanne
@Raven: The tuition to BYU is steep, even for Mormons. A friend of mine is in law school there, and he got a pretty good scholarship, but not really an better than anywhere else he got accepted.
The LDS are mostly nice people who are terrified of being kicked out of the church or suspected as disbelievers by their fellow churchgoers. Some friends of mine lost their temple recommends because they stopped tithing. And yes, they had to submit pay stubs so the church knows if they’re paying 10% or not. The church can and does rescind temple recommends for people that don’t pay them enough. SCAM.
There’s also the Second Endowment, which is supposedly the temple ceremony at which it’s made clear that “lying for the Lord” is OK. I personally wonder if the Rmoneys have gone through it. (Couples do it together.)
I’ve had the thought that perhaps Rmoney doesn’t want to release his tax records because it might show that he avoided tithing, or played games with his income to give as little as possible. THAT would piss off the religious faithful.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: Maori men are beautiful. Look at the New Zealand rugby team. All Blacks. Yum.
danielx
@richrazz:
When you’re right, you’re right.
I went back and re-read my own comment and…yup, it could be taken as a slam against the Church and its members as a whole. There are things to criticize about the Mormon Church – attitudes towards women, that whole business about finally admitting black folks are human beings, which I believe was in 1978.
Just like there are things to criticize about every church.
However…it’s all too easy to say “Mormons are…”, just like it’s easy for serious bigots to say “Jews are…”, or “N*****s are…” or whatever. Memo to me: I needed a reminder to treat people as individuals, not members of a group.
Yes, even Wall Street bankers, although they mostly are greedy sociopathic assholes.
Gian
way back when I was a kid. my dad traveled to teach for the army a couple times a year.
one time, we were in Kansas/MO
as part of my education while out there, I visited the jail in ind MO (and I think we went by Harry ruman’s house)
anyhow it was the early 80s, and the staff on hearing that we had a religion didn’t try and pitch us anything more than their spin on the history.
To my little kid visits, I have to say the trip to the USS North Carolina was nicer… but the Jail one was not out of the realm of what I was used to seeing on the trips. and then some years later the guys that helped me after a scary looking but not that bad bike accident were mormon missionary types, who figured that it was better to help a kid who flipped his bike on a major street without much by way of preaching. (I think the extent of it was something like “we’re mormons and we’re supposed to help” but it’s been a while)
I exepect when it comes down to brass tacks, their version of organized religion ain’t a whole lot different in execution than any other. Sometimes that religion has a text based god, and sometimes it’s an old italian football coach
Heck, I dunno why they didn’t try hard to covert me. Maybe I have some weird mark to them. All I can overall say is the people I’ve dealt with were pretty cool to me.
TheMightyTrowel
@Yutsano: Yum. Indeed.
suzanne
@Mnemosyne:
I am frequently annoyed by my LDS friends who say, often, that they fervently believe that Mormons are Christians, but then apply for minority scholarships and other benefits on the basis of their faith.
As for the cultural mixing thing, it’s an interesting mix. Yes, they’ll go to concerts and movies, but most of them absolutely will NOT be caught in a bar, even if they aren’t drinking. How extreme can this get? Well, at my HS reunion, which was held at a country club, the planners (all LDS student council members) objected to alcohol being served at the event, AT ALL. The one Latino dude on the planning committee got them to relent to having one bar, located outside. My graduating class had over 800 people, half of them LDS. So 400 of us got one bar. That was a long-ass line. But none of my LDS friends would ever be seen in a dance club or bar. So the Church holds dances and events for them to meet their own kind. My friends who have left have talked about how they would go to grocery stores out of their neighborhoods in order to buy coffee or tea or soda (some of them deeply believe drinking soda is wrong, others absolutely pickle themselves in the shit), because invariably they would run into fellow churchgoers who knew them at their local stores who would look in their shopping carts.
suzanne
@murakami:
I’m sorry that I dont find that all that impressive when you consider that the gentrified shopping mall in SLC costs more than double what they’ve spent in TWENTY-FIVE YEARS on humanitarian aid.
My two criteria for joining any religion: 1) There can be no monetary requirement for joining or staying in, and 2) They have to tell anyone who asks, at any time, everything they believe, do, practice, and how they spend money.
Mormons fail miserably on both counts. FAIL. No matter how nice they are, FAIL
satby
As an ex- Catholic, I have no love lost for the church, but it doesn’t restrict it’s charitable work only to other Catholics. IMHO, any religion that does isn’t perfoming charity, it’s just maintaining the membership.
Kimberly Smiths
The Mormon church does not brag about all the good it does for people of any faith.That’s why they are rich and generous
Another Halocene Human
@satby: Yeah, but look at how the RCC stamped and screamed when they were required NOT TO PROSELYTIZE with Federal funds.
The horror. The horror.
Another Halocene Human
@Kimberly Smiths: Banning same-sex marriage is a societal “good”?
Retief
Some people here and elsewhere like to be flabbergasted at the $2 billion cost of building a mall in downtown Salt Lake City, while also complaining that the LDS Church is doing nothing for people in this terrible economy. WTF people? How many people in the building trades do you think $2 billion employs at a time when a huge amount of other building work just went away? Isn’t undertaking that kind of infrastructure project exactly what a sane person would want a responsible big wheel in the local economy to do with its cash in a massive recession? The LDS church leadership may vote republican but they apparently are not to stupid to practice some good solid keynsianism.
Also a million acres sounds like a lot, until you realize there’s 2.3 Billion acres in the continental US. Yes that’s right; the LDS church owns 4 hundredths of a percent of the land in the continental US. Come on people don’t let the word Mormon inhibit your basic critical thinking skills.