Quick, US government, some guy in Alaska said in a phone conversation he was "snowed in," the NSA leaker must be up there! #keystoneintel
— David Dayen (@ddayen) July 3, 2013
I’ve been laughing all day long about the government applying pressure on half of Europe to force the Bolivian President’s plane down because some aloof, self-aggrandizing twit might be on the plane. It’s just awesome. I mean, I know there are people on my twitter feed who want to strangle Snowden with piano wire (Zandar, Oliver Willis, Bob Cesca, and so on- I’m looking at you), but I didn’t expect all the bigwigs in the permanent national security state to poop their pampers like this.
Just awesome, if for no other reason than the comedic value. We look like idiotic bullies because someone is pointing out that our government does all sorts of immoral and likely unconstitutional shit (but hey- it’s “LEGAL,” so if you don’t like it STFU and why do you hate Obama hippy?) and they just can’t handle their behavior being exposed.
We better invade someone soon to change the subject, although fortunately Obama has more sense than that.
Corner Stone
NOTHINGBURGER!!
piratedan
http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-case-france-denies-blocking-bolivia-plane-090257428.html
pokeyblow
Used to be, Acton’s remark about power corrupting, etc., was a good thing to keep in mind.
But Obama is president now. So lay off of him, racists!
Corner Stone
This one is an all time favorite of mine, from mistermix’s recent thread. I laugh and laugh at the craven bootlicking going on display here:
boss bitch
When was the last time you checked the news?
RaflW
Shit sandwich
JasonF
Out of genuine curiosity, because I haven’t been following this non-story: has anybody in a position to actually know some real facts indicated that the nonsense with President Morales’s plane was done at the direction or request of the U.S.?
chopper
@piratedan:
the fact that france denies it clearly means that it totes happened.
different-church-lady
@JasonF: Shhh… quiet: I wanna see Cole step on the banana peel…
Emma
You know what, John? It’s your blog.
What amazes me is how close hyper liberals are to the hyper conservatives in their belief that the United States is a Superman every country bows it’s head to — except shitty little hellholes like Bolivia, who would fold in twenty seconds if all foreign aid directly or indirectly controlled by the US is pulled. There are no independent countries in the world — they all OBEY the United States — except your favorite “little country punching up” of the moment. The Prime Minister of Spain flat out says it didn’t happen — so of course he’s lying on behalf of the United States. I expect you to claim that the pilot’s conversation with the Austrian traffic controller about a faulty gauge was made up by the CIA.
Bah. It’s the same thing from both sides.
chopper
you realize that the first part of that sentence does not comport with the second, right?
max
I mean, I know there are people on my twitter feed who want to strangle Snowden with piano wire (Zandar, Oliver Willis, Bob Cesca, and so on- I’m looking at you)
Is this some new strange performance art aimed at mocking centrists for taking freepers seriously? I mean, usually, you reserve the death penalty or life in prison for someone who seriously harmed someone (like, say, BTK strangling an entire family with venetian blind cords). Maybe if he were Jonathan Pollard and shipping radar designs and the like to some other country that would then forward it to China/Russia/Pakistan/whatever, I could see that.
someone is pointing out that our government does all sorts of immoral and
likelyunconstitutional shitFixed.
but I didn’t expect all the bigwigs in the permanent national security state to poop their pampers like this.
It’s a jobs program. Got to protect the jobs program, especially when the allotment is 10 times larger than it is for the EITC, and it’s paid in cash.
We better invade someone soon to change the subject, although fortunately Obama has more sense than that.
Syria.
max
[‘Don’t look at me. I’m entirely consistent on this subject and I supported Obama and got the literal T-shirt.’]
NickT
@Emma:
And then a large, white furry paw came down from the heavens, there was a squelching sound – and no-one ever raised the idea again.
John Cole
@chopper: Umm. Things are legal for years before they are determined to be unconstitutional. What are you talking about? DOMA was the legal law of the land until last week.
Yeah, I’m the dumb one here slipping on banana peels.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@boss bitch:
If this is sober posting I think John needs to start drinking again, he makes more sense when he’s raving drunk.
pokeyblow
@chopper: Because we live in a country where each and every law and regulation in effect at each and every moment is constitutional.
NickT
@max:
I thought the allegorical t-shirt was pretty good too.
pokeyblow
@John Cole: Should you step on a banana peel, you’ll probably be fine. Unlike those contorted beyond recognition by their insistence that Obama not only can do no wrong, but shouldn’t even be questioned. About anything. No matter what he does or says.
RaflW
We look like idiotic bullies because …
so often we are. Even if, in this case, it later turns out the US gov’t didn’t apply a full court press to get this to happen, it fits our bully narrative rather well.
Oh and semi-OT, the US mail photographs every piece of mail now, so it’s practically like dial-logs on yer cell phone. Security! (Snark aside, the anthrax stuff might actually justify this as long as they’re not steaming open 160 billion pieces of mail a year and photoing all the contents)
Emma
@pokeyblow: Actually, until and if the Supreme Court declares it unconstitutional any law passed by Congress and signed by the President is, by definition, constitutional. Wrongheaded and stupid maybe; but constitutional… yes.
NickT
@Emma:
Well if you are going to get all factual about matters on which the ignorant prefer to emote…
chopper
@John Cole:
yes, something is legal until someday when it isn’t. they aren’t both at the same time.
ruemara
You’re doing a great job shitting your own bed. It may be unconstitutional-to you and those you agree with-but yes, it is legal. There is also no proof to these allegations that the US interfered with Morales’ plane. In fact, it looks like it had to refuel. Seriously, you can disagree about Snowden all you want, but why do you start off arguing about Snowden in the first place, then move to near unproveable allegations, then do the head slappingly stupid statement about unconstitutional-again, to you-somehow negating legal? Have another drink. I think you need it.
@pokeyblow: And who the flying fuck is saying that?
SFAW
@NickT:
Bambi vs. Tunchzilla?
Emma
@NickT: Well, they keep telling me liberals are the thinking ones… but I guess the concept of the United States and a grand monster straddling the world stage and controlling everything through shadowy agencies and international power conspiracies is too much a good thing to ignore.
pokeyblow
@Emma: But Emma, how can anyone challenge the constitutionality of a law which, by your definition, is determinedly constitutional?
Are you a lawyer? Or are you familiar with the legal doctrine, specifically, you are referring to? That’s one I’d like to know.
BGinCHI
If we spent half as much time reforming the intelligence services as we did education we’d be a lot better off.
I mean, unless it was the kind of reform actually going on in education.
USA! USA!
/knocks over beer with foam finger
NickT
@Emma:
But it’s so much more rewarding for their inner drama queens. Conspiracies! Evil empires! Heroic individuals who don’t understand what direct access to a company’s servers means saving the world with a thumb-drive and a change of laundry in the Moscow Airport!
Howard Beale IV
@NickT: Tunch don’t care, Tunch don’t give a shit.
NickT
@BGinCHI:
Haven’t we just seen what happens when you privatize intelligence collection? *cough* Booz Allen Hamilton *cough*.
chopper
@ruemara:
yeah, but ‘obummer forces europe to fuck over bolivia because snowden is a hero’ is easier for some people to believe than ‘actually that didn’t happen at all’.
different-church-lady
@BGinCHI: Do we ever actually reform education, or do we just move it around the room a lot without ever finding a good place for it?
Howard Beale IV
@ruemara: Morales was lucky that he didn’t get the Iran Air treatment.
NickT
@different-church-lady:
We make it cheaper, nastier and more obviously abusive of all concerned except the grifters “reforming” the place for taxpayer dollars. We might as well be honest and call it deforming education.
different-church-lady
@Howard Beale IV:
[looks up “Iran Air Treatment” on Urban Dictionary…]
EWWWWWWWWW!!!!
Larv
Okay, I just posted this on mistermix’s thread on this subject, but that one’s probably dead so I’ll repeat myself:
I’m unclear on why anyone thinks there has to be active US involvement in this shitshow. As somebody above noted, Morales has been doing plenty to piss off Spain lately, relations between the two countries are shaky at best and the Spanish regard Marales as a loose cannon. I don’t find it unthinkable that the Spaniards made refueling permission in the Canaries contingent upon assurances that Snowden wasn’t aboard, if for no other reason than to tweak Morales. The Bolivians would almost certainly take affront at that and refuse to do so on general principles. The problem is, once they do so, any other country they ask is going to look askance at that refusal and demand the same assurances. So when they ask Austria for permission to land because of the fuel gauge issue, Austria would very likely demand that they be allowed to ensure that Snowden wasn’t aboard, even without the US actively requesting it. Nobody wants to be the sap that causes a diplomatic incident by allowing Snowden through.
I mean, I don’t have any problem believing that the State Dept has made it clear that we will not look kindly upon anybody who allows Snowden to transit through their airspace on his way to wherever. But I don’t see why it has to go any further than that, absent some evidence of direct US involvement in the Morales flap. Why shouldn’t I think that is a fairly minor Spain-Bolivia flap that cascaded out of control? Is it really more believable that the US would cause a wholly predictable international incident by leaning on all these countries on the offchance that Snowden was aboard? It’s certainly possible, but I’d like some actual evidence before I take it as gospel as JC and MM seem to be doing.
Denny
As with many things Snowden and Greenwald related – the initial reports appear to have been – exaggerated.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/07/tale-re-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart/66838/
It seems that Morales plane very likely landed in Vienna due to a malfunctioning fuel gauge.
Emma
@pokeyblow: Not a lawyer. A librarian. I hold an undergraduate degree from the University of Illinois in American history and political science. Did graduate work at the University of Virginia in American history but did not finish my degree. More to the point, I sat through Schoolhouse Rock with my little sister.
Damn right you can challenge the constitutionality of a law. That is the whole point of the legal structure of the United States. But until it is declared unconstitutional it is the law of the land. By definition it is constitutional until the Supreme Court says oops.
dewzke
Bolivia is a
Really? Been there and that is a fucked up thing to say.
Corner Stone
I’m wondering when Rep Nadler’s spokesperson will retract the statement made by the Bolivian Foreign Minister.
chopper
@Denny:
obummer clearly sabotaged the fuel gauge.
NickT
@Denny:
The NSA fixed the fuel gauge remotely! Audit the Fed! Go Galt! Socialist tyranny! etc etc etc.
ruemara
Fuck it, I’m joining this gravy train. Obummer pressured my processor to render these particles slow. I will leak the details, once I’m given a regular spot on Chris Hayes’ show. THE GOVERNMENT IS READING YOUR METERS! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!
different-church-lady
@Corner Stone: Ah, you’re sensing a theme here. Good for you.
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
Assumes facts not in evidence. Please proceed.
Joseph Nobles
Think a minute: if France was Obama’s puppet, why would they be calling off US/EU trade talks over the spying revelations?
And now the countries St. Greenwald and the Holy See of Wikileaks said forced the plane down are denying it even happened. It was a faulty fuel gauge. Seriously, Snowden supporters are getting into Pentagon 9/11 plane denial territory here.
NickT
@ruemara:
Obama broke my pencil and made rude words appear in this fuck you, whitey blog comment!
pokeyblow
@Emma: John Cole’s post draws a distinction between “legal” and constitutional, observing that a law can be found unconstitutional by the courts, and that other laws might be found unconstitutional should they be challenged and heard.
What you say implies this: “if the supreme court declares law X to be unconstitutional on March 1st, 2014, that law was constitutional on February 28, 2014.”
Is that your understanding? It isn’t mine.
And congratulations on your CV.
Howard Beale IV
Here’s what happens when the NSA recruits at a University. Some choice quotes:
chopper
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy:
i’ve been laughing all day at the fact that some idiots got catfished by this joke story.
different-church-lady
@Joseph Nobles:
Oh heck, that ain’t nothin’.
NickT
@Emma:
The sooner you pie pokeyblow, the sooner your chances of an intelligent dialog with an operational human mind on this thread will increase.
askew
Man, people sure are gullible. The Bolivian president puts out some nonsense about the U.S. government making Europe delay his plane home and people swallow it without any clue. Here is some actual facts about the Bolivan President’s plane:
On a positive note, it makes it easier to figure out who not to trust with breaking news. Too many people are too willing to buy any crazy anti-government conspiracy theory. Daily Kos has gone full-on CT. At some point, kos is going to have to step in to save his site like he did after the 2004 election.
LAC
@JasonF: NO!!!! “CAUSE HAHAHAHAHA! ITS SO FUNNY HOW NOTHING IS HAPPENING AND HEEEHEE WHERE’S MY DRINK AND HAHAHA OBAMA IS EVIL AND POOR BOLIVIA!!!!
NickT
@chopper:
I thought the Guardian getting bamboozled by Mad Uncle Madsen was pretty hilarious.
Emma
@pokeyblow: You’re the one that tried the snarky “what authoritah do you have to speak on this matter”? Notice I haven’t bothered to discuss yours, since it is a disgusting attempt at a putdown and I’mall kinds of a bitch but that much is bad for my karma. And that final congratulations? Same territory.
My understanding is that once a law is passed, it is the law. When and if the Supreme Court declares it unconstitutional, wholly or in part, it ceases to be the law. I may not like the law — the Patriot Act comes to mind immediately — but until it is challenged on constitutional grounds it is the law.
ruemara
@Howard Beale IV: So? You think working in the spy game is a job for truth crusaders? What the hell is the point? Shit, I didn’t go into the army because I knew I’d be in the brig the minute I heard something I didn’t like.
NickT
@askew:
Well, you know who else was an Austrian, don’t you?
CONSPIRACY, people!!!
chopper
@different-church-lady:
(squeezes bridge of nose and sighs) oh, christ.
Cromagnon
More Cole sucking up to the Greenwaldites. Pathetic
Omnes Omnibus
@Emma: You are right. It doesn’t mean they are good laws. It doesn’t mean that they won’t be found unconstitutional, but it does mean that actions done in accordance with those laws are legal until the laws are found to be unconstitutional.
chopper
@NickT:
oh shit, schwarzenegger’s in on this? fuck me!
NickT
@chopper:
Just remember, your code word is “EDELWEISS”. Eat this message as soon as you receive it!
pokeyblow
@Emma: That sounds about right. A law is the law until it is struck down.
But what you wrote in #20, and what your cretin friend Nick seems to believe is:
“until and if the Supreme Court declares it unconstitutional any law passed by Congress and signed by the President is, by definition, constitutional.”
Note the last word in my quote from you.
Now I love learning new things, and would have found this a fascinating thing to learn about. But I think you tried to teach me something which isn’t true. I asked whether you were a lawyer because that would suggest you knew about law. Nothing snarky, I sincerely wanted to correct my understanding to what you wrote… while I thought there was a slim chance it might be true.
As for your CV, I didn’t ask for it, but you gave it to me. Thanks again.
maya
There is a way out; I’ve heard, from semi-reliable and unidentifiable sources, that Grañada is acting up again.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: Not trying to be a dick, but what she wrote in #20, setting me straight, was not what she’s saying now.
gogol's wife
I wish to God that Edward Snowden had never been born.
Origuy
According to the Atlantic, Morales’ plane didn’t even leave from Sheremetyevo. It left from Vnukovo, 27 miles away. Since there are four international airports around Moscow, I sure hope whoever has enough pull to get four sovereign nations to deny his plane to fly over would have checked which airport it took off from.
NickT
@Origuy:
That’s what Evil Vladimir Putin wants you to think, of course….
Corner Stone
@gogol’s wife: Indeed.
Emma
@Omnes Omnibus: You know what bothers me most about all of this? How much it’s all about the United States. Other countries aren’t seen as independent actors in the political stage, with their own definition of self-interest. I really, really thought “our” side was better at granting other nations actual recognition separate from the US. Guess not.
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: What she said at 20 is basically correct.
gogol's wife
@Emma:
You’re not aware that Obama invented the idea of spying? Before Obama became president, the U.S. government did not collect intelligence on its own citizens or on other nations, friendly or otherwise.
lockewasright
Um… the constitution requires going through the courts in order to search. Snowden’s big smoking gun document was a COURT order. Good luck with that rewrite of the constitution. No, you’re right though… Obama is exactly the same as Boosh for moving us from warrantless wiretapping to getting court orders to look at metadata and getting warrants for content.
NickT
I think I can see why Cole was so upset today:
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/07/no-sport-is-safe-how-a-squabble-over-money-is-hurting-competitive-eating/277243/
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: Ok, so at #26 I asked her a question:
how can anyone challenge the constitutionality of a law which, by your definition, is determinedly constitutional?
Can you answer better than Emma did? If what she wrote at #20 is correct (not basically correct… exactly correct), I want to know.
ranchandsyrup
So interesting to see what people want to believe. Facts, evidence and effort be damned. What a world.
El Cid
Each one of the nations involved give different reasons why FAB1 (the Bolivian Air Force 1) was delayed or denied overflight permission. France’s Hollande said in his apology to the Bolivian government (and public statement) that overflight permission was delayed because there was confusion over who was one the plane though he claims that once he learned that President Morales — who is a really real head of state, no less than Hollande — was on board, he immediately granted permission.
NickT
@gogol’s wife:
COINTELPRO never happened. J Edgar Hoover remained a rutabaga farmer all his life.
AND THEN THE DARK LORD RETURNED!!!
Omnes Omnibus
Also, the idea that the US would fuck with the flight of a head of state to catch Snowden just does not make a lot of sense to me. The idea that the US would use France, Spain, and Austria as proxies to do this makes even less sense.
Emma
@pokeyblow: Last time. By definition, any law passed is constitutional until struck down by the United States Supreme Court. As a citizen it is your right to challenge the constitutionality of any law, but you cannot choose to disobey it because in your opinion it is unconstitutional. If you do, you are breaking the law. What happens next may be nothing or it may be what happened to Rosa Parks or Ellsberg. And if you are lucky the laws change or are struck down. And if you’re really lucky you change America.
I am not a kook
@Emma:
I don’t, but I don’t think it makes a difference in either direction. “Faulty gauge” is the easiest thing to say when you don’t want to broadcast the real reason, whatever it is, on an open channel. The plane turned around pretty close to exiting Austrian airspace though (into Italy or Switzerland, not sure).
Something about this smells like we’re being toyed with. I may need to toke less also, too.
Corner Stone
@El Cid: Fer tha last time, boy! We’uns round these heah parts don’t speak cheese-eatin-monkey-surrnderrin’!
Speak tha English God gave the common dog!
USA! USA! U.S.A!
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: There is a presumption that any law passed by Congress and signed by the President is constitutional. The presumption is rebuttable, and a lawsuit that results in the courts finding the law unconstitutional successfully rebuts the presumption.
BGinCHI
@NickT: Um, if that’s reform you are definitely thinking of the current education “reform” movement.
Which is whatever the opposite of real reform would be.
pokeyblow
@Emma: Any law must be followed until struck down.
That does not mean any law is constitutional.
Again, if all laws not struck down are “by definition, constitutional”, how can anyone ever say “I think this is unconstitutional?”
Wouldn’t lower courts toss out every single challenge, saying “don’t you know the definition of constitutional? The law is constitutional until the SC strikes it down. You are claiming this law is unconstitutional. You are wrong. Case dismissed.”
According to your definition, no law’s constitutionality could ever be challenged, since every existing law was by definition constitutional.
NickT
@I am not a kook:
Might just be that they weren’t too too keen on heading over some pretty high mountains with possibly not enough fuel. People are funny about that sort of thing, especially when you’ve got a president on board.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: A presumption of some fact is not the same as saying “the fact is fact, by definition.”
Or do you disagree?
NickT
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, that should keep pokeytroll busy with a dictionary for a few hours. Nicely done.
Emma
@I am not a kook: So now everyone at the airport is in on the fix?
piratedan
@Omnes Omnibus: it’s just like when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor… because this was all originated from Africa, when the President Thug got on his shoe phone and spoke to the NSA to speak to the UN to lean on three separate European Governments to stick it to these upstart Bolivians for thinking they could pull a fast one regarding superspy Eddie Baby who was secretly moved from one Moscow airport to another to ensure that he could finally make it to Ecuador via Bolivia by means of the Medellin Cartel in their ongoing war with America regarding the drug trade… see, it all fits seamlessly.
Damn, needed to find a way to fit in abortion and the baby jeebus and maybe a Benghazi reference too…
NickT
@piratedan:
Pearl Harbor was the cover for Benghazi so that Obama could travel back in time and abort Baby Jesus.
pokeyblow
@NickT: Nick, seriously, you’re just too stupid, and you try too hard to make these people like you. Why do you keep trolling me? I thought you filtered me out. Just do what you say you’re going to do.
You’re like a pesky four-year-old. Find a new fixation.
Emma
@pokeyblow: I know no intelligent conversation can be had with someone who retreats into semantic pedantry when faced by facts. I’m done with you.
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: The effect in a court is the same. Until and unless struck down on constitutional grounds, a duly passed and signed piece of legislation is valid law. Do you want to fight over the semantics of this or would you prefer to focus on the fact that the laws suck and should be changed?
Lavocat
@chopper: Not true. The two terms are not – unbelievably enough – mutually exclusive. Something can be deemed legal (NSA’s current bullshit) while nevertheless being ostensibly unconstitutional.
Emma
@Lavocat: In your opinion — and to some extent in mine. “Ostensibly” is not a legal term in this case.
magurakurin
@pokeyblow:
dude, you don’t need to try…it just comes naturally for you. You’re kinda like the Ichiro Suzuki of dickiness. So, you got that goin for ya.
pokeyblow
@Emma: Go to hell. You’re the one who jumped in trying to set me straight about something you don’t know anything about.
And now that you’re wrong, you’re too small to admit it.
How pathetic. But you’re still smarter than Nick, which I sure as hell hope you don’t take as consolation.
Turgidson
On the “legal but unconstitutional” thing, Cole’s quote isn’t artfully phrased, but what he might have meant was that the NSA is interpreting duly passed laws (that are constitutional until SCOTUS says otherwise, as has been noted) in a way that could be considered either illegal, in the sense that they are using an unreasonably broad interpretation of what the law says they can do. And that possibly-illegal activity could also unconstitutionally encroach on the 4th amendment.
Not sure that’s what he meant, but that’s sort of how I’ve been looking at this. Congress has passed laws authorizing quite a bit of surveillance, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the NSA et al are abiding by the actual language and intent of those laws. They might have willfully interpreted the laws such that they have carte blanche. And that would be a problem.
piratedan
@NickT: TY Nick, if only I had known that the space/time continuum was in play, I would have gone there…. :-)
Yatsuno
@gogol’s wife: I remember when JC didn’t blatantly troll his own blog. Also. Too.
Corner Stone
@Emma:
***CHOKES***
Are you fucking kidding me?! We’ve been fighting The Great Semantic War ™ since that little bitch ass Snowden ever decided to breathe air.
No One of Consequence
Whocouldanoodles.
I got nothin’.
– NOoC
LAC
@Emma: I would tell you to stop wasting your time explaining shit to pokeyblowsgreenwald, but if his brain turns off as a result, it is worth it.
NickT
@magurakurin:
Pokeytroll’s got one hell of an appetite for pie too. I do worry about his morbid obesity coming to a crisis in the near future.
Emma
@Turgidson: Now that is true. Laws can be stretched into places they definitely were not intended to go. And intelligence agencies are known for their elasticity.
Lavocat
@Emma: Not true. Legal? Yes. Constitutional? No. The Supreme Court is the final arbiter of ANY law’s constitutionality.
Just because something may be legal, it’s supposed legality does not – on its own – cause it to also be constitutional. The two terms are entirely different.
I am not a kook
@RaflW: Automatically generating a database from mail envelopes makes me think of this classic for some reason: http://xkcd.com/327/
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: I want the busybody Mrs. Kravitz lady who thought I needed a constitution lesson from a librarian to learn English.
Semantics are a part of our language. When someone says something is true by definition, it’s hardly an unfair response to challenge the definition. What she wrote in #20 is sadly wrong, and misunderstands exactly the point Cole made in the original post.
And poor Emma. It’s just so hard saying, well, I didn’t really mean “constitutional, I meant ‘the law’, and it’s incorrect to say ‘constitutional’ like I did.”
Poor thing. So tenuous a claim to legitimacy, so fearful of losing any tiny trace of respect.
NickT
@piratedan:
Can’t spoil a good conspiracy theory over nickel and dime stuff like history and consensus reality.
WAKE UP SHEEPLE! etc etc etc.
Lavocat
@Emma: Um, no. In the U.S. Supreme Court’s opinion. This is simple Constitutional Law 101.
Keith
@ruemara: I’ve heard the same thing about fuel (including a transcript allegedly from the pilot saying as much). I really didn’t expect Drum to go all “Chicago thug” just based on speculation, but unfortunately, it doesn’t surprise me to see JC look before he leaps. The only thing that was missing was him to close with a “And to my readers, fuck you all!”
Good thing Jon Stewart is off directing a movie, or else he’d do the same thing.
Soonergrunt
@Emma: ” Other countries aren’t seen as independent actors in the political stage, with their own definition of self-interest.”
Well, that doesn’t fit the narrative that sells ad space on the Guardian and pays GG’s bills.
Emma
@Lavocat: Technically, maybe. Practically, none. Try disobeying the law and telling the judge it’s because it’s not constitutional.
NickT
@Keith:
Don’t you mean that Cole leaped before he looked?
scav
Do facts matter at all anymore on this subjuct? It’s looking mostly like an internet-driven craze, a shouty combined cardio-vascular work- and freak-out with roots in flashmobs. Needs more cats.
pokeyblow
@NickT: Jesus, you simpleton, pie me.
Pie me permanently.
Yatsuno
@Soonergrunt: Agency? You think other countries have agency? We’re Merika dude! We rule the whole damn planet any way we fucking want! Every country will submit to our will or we bomb it into oblivion.
Or something.
Ash Can
@El Cid: Interesting information, but I doubt the French press would be bashful about commenting on pressure from the US government in this matter, if it took place. Nowhere in the article is the US even mentioned, other than within the context of supplying background information on Snowden himself.
NickT
@Yatsuno:
We flicker an eyelash and the world trembles!!!
And remember, the Templars have something to do with everything!!!
ruemara
@Turgidson: Now that is accurate.
@Keith: Sooner said it…sooner, but outrage brings eyeballs. People on the left have to wean themselves off the belief that the outlets we agree with are not above manipulating us with half truths.
I had to drop my little crush on Drum today.
askew
We have seriously descended into the crazy CT land that took over liberal blogs after the 2004 election. Remember how some woman named Bev had proof that the Ohio election was stolen, etc. The difference now is that we have twitter and MSNBC to let the rest of the world know that the left in this country are delusional. How embarrassing.
NickT
@Ash Can:
Conspiracy Theory 101:
If the US wasn’t mentioned, it proves that Evil Emperor Obama crushed their free speech with brutal Chicago thug tyranny.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Corner Stone: You are incorrect again, we’ve been fighting the Great Semantic War™ since the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.
Ash Can
@Yatsuno: He must be really bored and wants to stir up some more crap. I hope so, anyway. I’d hate to think of him actually going off the deep end.
Corner Stone
@ruemara:
Poor thing. And now your world has drawn that much closer.
Lavocat
@Emma: Also, even Scalia would have to be high on crack to be able to find that what the NSA has done/is doing/will damned well continue to do no matter what is somehow an exception to the 4th Amendment. A clear reading of the caselaw under the 4th Amendment (in conjunction with the 10th Amendment – the one so many people so often forget about: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, OR TO THE PEOPLE.”) reveals that what the NSA has done is – on its face – unconstitutional in the extreme.
I mean, shit, if you’re going to call this abomination constitutional, then you might just as well wipe your ass with the Constitution, because that’s what it’s been reduced to.
Yatsuno
@Ash Can:
Oh hell no. The French press would be eating that factoid like a prime Parisian steak in a fine bistro. The lack of much EU is…interesting.
NickT
@askew:
Unskew the Poles! And the Bulgarians while you are at it.
NickT
@Lavocat:
Judging by the last decade, chemically-unenhanced Scalia is capable of pretty much anything.
FlipYrWhig
WHY AREN’T WE TALKING ABOUT REAL ISSUES LOL STOOPID BOLIVIA PLANE TOTALLY COUNTS AS REAL ISSUES
Yatsuno
@Ash Can: I know a lot of the shit he pulls on here amuses him. I’m thinking he’s approaching the land of the true believer on this one however. But he and Glenn are buds so I guess it just is what it is.
mclaren
@ruemara:
Shorter Ruemara: Obama’s dick tastes like chicken.
At this rate, by 2016 Obama is going to be a flaming eye atop a black tower screaming orders to nazgûls.
Emma
@Lavocat: Well, it’s Scalia. What’s the over-under? Because the man is bat-shit crazy.
piratedan
@NickT: another classic along the lines of “we had to burn the village down in order to save it”. The scary thing is, we’re all dependent upon a press which rushes stories to publication to generate page clicks which supposedly generate revenue (yeah, like I always click on sponsored ads on websites these days, I’m funny like that) and then the other shoe drops and the other side of the story gets told and then sometimes a third and a fourth and you can sit back and say, who decided to let that first one out there to set the discussion, whatever happened to getting “both sides” of the story before rushing to print. Based on what the US has said that they’re going to do regarding Snowden (we’re not scrambling fighters to bring him in) how likely is it that this current administration plays that way where they say one thing and mean another? Why are we so quick to believe that these guys are just like the Bushies?
NickT
@mclaren:
I doubt Obama wants to adopt your aesthetic choices.
PopeRatzo
@max:
It’s worse than a jobs program. It’s welfare for the rich, privatization of national security and the intelligence apparatus, a giveaway to the worst corporations in the world and it’s morally wrong. Unfortunately, it’s also a one-way street. Once you give away stuff like the Fourth Amendment, it’s not a bed that can be un-shat.
I’m flabbergasted that there’s so much support among so-called “progressives” for a police state, not to mention whistleblower prosecutions, Espionage Act and a fucking kill list. A kill list… If a kill list isn’t over the line for you, I can’t imagine what it would take.
I’ve got a feeling that within a few years, you won’t find a single self-described liberal who will admit to having continued to support Barack Obama by July of 2013. There are going to be a whole lot of short memories.
But I can understand. It took me longer than it probably should before I snapped out of the trance, and I’m not proud of having been snookered. But this is now bigger than my hurt feelings at having spent so much energy and money and time to elect someone that turned creepy.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: “I love lamp.”
Lavocat
@Emma: Been there, done that. Not always successful but some damned fine law is made that way (yes, I am an attorney, how’d ya guess!?). A perfect example are these fucking heinous laws that purport to make videotaping or filming police officers in the course of their official duties a crime. Um, no. Those laws ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL. They are LAWS that violate the 1st Amendment. Flipping off a police officer? Not wise, but protected by the 1st Amendment.
NickT
@piratedan:
It’s just more fun for Cole to “believe” this nonsense and polish his rebel libertarian credentials.
eemom
fer fuxsake Cole, you really don’t read your own blog, do you?
Or is there some nuance of dumbass in this post that is different from MM’s exact same post earlier today that eludes me?
eta: oh I get it: shitbed instead of shitshow. nm.
RandomMonster
@askew:
Don’t let something like facts get in the way of John getting his hate on on anybody who’s skeptical that there’s a scandal here. According to him the only way we argue our point is by calling Greenwald a queer.
NickT
@PopeRatzo:
You’ve just made Jerome Corsi feel a whole lot better about himself.
Lavocat
@NickT: I’m guessing it’s the vino. I’m HOPING it’s the vino.
Emma
@Lavocat: They may well be. But if you use that as your only defense, your clients will be in jail for a long time while the case makes its way to the Supreme Court!
pokeyblow
@Lavocat: I think it’s hot when librarians tell you, unasked for, how shit works, incorrectly.
Next time I hope Emma gives me a chemistry lesson. Or tells me what happened to Judge Crater.
ruemara
@Corner Stone: I’d say something to whatever your retort is supposed to be, but what the fuck ever, you’re not important to me.
@mclaren: Fuck yourself, you boring moron.
NickT
@Lavocat:
I shudder to imagine what quiet little Sammy Alito is putting into his veins.
Lavocat
@Emma: As much as I loathe the man, I admire his (all too) infrequent support for the 4th Amendment in a pinch. But, yeah, he’s a dick.
the blogosphere is a sad hole
Would that be the story that’s only sourced to the Bolivian government and collapsed today??? You know what makes me laugh? How utterly fking stupid the bloggers who are supposed to save us from the media are. You know, the media that can’t be trusted. That you believe without question, as long as it supports what you believe or comes from a source you’re incapable of challenging. Until it doesn’t, and then their the dumbest fkers on the planet again.
I get why you were a wingut. Turning into a moonbat makes perfect sense.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: This post, and many of John’s recent ones, seem to be essentially trolling the trolls who troll the other trolls. I don’t get the appeal of this entire circle-jerk where the people who are the most gullible high-five each other over how they’re the only ones left who are skeptical. And there’s John in the middle of it, doing silverback-style chest beating over… something… about how everyone else is wrong about… something. Who knows. Whatever it is, though, it sure as shit isn’t Discussing The Real Issues! Like We Must! Or Totalitarianism Infinity!
Corner Stone
@ruemara: Bless your poor heart.
Emma
@Lavocat: Even Scalia has his moments. Still, when it comes to the trappings of the security state in general… I don’t trust him one bit.
chopper
so MM slipped on a banana peel, then cole slipped on the same one. this is fucking great.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: Hmmm…well, then what should we be discussing?
askew
Yep, basically I am wondering how far John and others will go down this road of disregarding any facts that get in the way of their crazy conspiracy theory.
Lavocat
@Emma: Never go to court with just ONE defense. It also helps to know the judge socially. Knowing the law? Important. Presenting your case coherently and concisely? Awesome. Schmoozing with Hizzonner over some Maker’s Mark until you’re both silly? Priceless.
FlipYrWhig
@PopeRatzo:
I’ve got a feeling that the same people complaining incessantly about Obama now will be, within a few years, complaining non-stop about how President Castro isn’t as shrewd at handling terrorism and civil liberties as Barack Obama was in the good old days.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@ruemara:
I wuz playing Team Fortress 2 last night and Obama has the NSA sucking up so much of teh internets that I kept getting lag in certain sections of the maps. Or maybe it’s that particle thing and the NSA is sucking up my particle effects, leaving me little to game on.
I need the black helicopters to bring me moar particles and internets, just not the FEMA camp kind!
NickT
Speaking of authentic megalomaniacs:
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/Chris_Christie_And_His_Friends
Emma
@Lavocat: Now that’s a damn good lawyer!
NickT
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Dude, you got off lightly – the NSA burned my Starbucks coffee.
Keith
@NickT: LOL! Yeah, I’ve been backwards all week long (my brain was telling Cole to look before leaping, but when I wrote it 3rd person, it stayed that way). Thanks for the catch (I should look before I post ;) )
Soonergrunt
@NickT: Christie knew what everyone else who was paying attention knew–that Romney was not going to win, and this was his best shot to set himself up for 2016. That speech said NOTHING about the candidate at all. It was almost like Romney didn’t exist that night.
Larv
@NickT:
How could you tell?
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: John professed to want to talk about The Issues Raised By Snowden And Greenwald, not just Snowden and Greenwald. And to that discussion he has contributed two things: jack and shit. This post contributes even less. It’s meta-meta-meta bullshit. If you enjoy meta-meta-meta bullshit, great, but don’t at the same time get up on a high horse about how no one dares to talk about the real issues. That’s all he’s been doing. Accordingly, he should stop playing to his little claque by asking to be stroked for how he’s one of the brave lonely few who gives a shit. He doesn’t.
NickT
@Soonergrunt:
I remember watching it with immense amusement and thinking that the GOP really do hate each other – and the only reason they hang together is that they hate black people slightly more.
chopper
@PopeRatzo:
lol, people said the same thing about clinton. yet ‘internet liberals’ currently lionize him over obama.
Lavocat
@Emma: I tell my clients all the time. Being an attorney is 10% legal and 90% political. Know the politics of the venue and, sadly, it might be more important than knowing the law. Maybe that’s why I drink.
Ash Can
@Yatsuno:
Yeah — almost as if les E.-U. n’etaient pas du tout en jeu dans les actions des francais. (Sorry – don’t have the right diacritical markings on my keyboard.)
NickT
@Larv:
Because it was black and the baristas were all speaking some foreign language. I had to order something called a venti which is totes Muslim-speak for Chris Christie-sized. They pretended not to understand my authentic heartland-dweller order for a coffee of maximum dimensionality.
FlipYrWhig
@NickT: On my way home yesterday a tree was blocking the road and cops were making everyone turn around. Or so I thought. Now I realize it must have been Obama and the NSA fucking with me for suggesting various reforms to the FISA process on various blogs. Damn you Obama!
NickT
@FlipYrWhig:
That tree got droned, dude, but you were the intended target.
Emma
@Lavocat: I have a feeling specially in your neck of the woods. Kentucky, maybe?
Dr. Squid
Evidence besides a conspiracy theory?
Ash Can
@NickT: That’s hilarious!
FlipYrWhig
@NickT: I do live by a bunch of military bases… it’s all too fiendishly plausible! If you don’t hear from me, I’ve gone Full Snowden.
Gordon, the Big Express Engine
Fucking snowden caused me accidentally tap the top part of the screen on my phone and then I had scroll all the way back down. It was either that or the wine I am drinking. Now I forgot what I was going say.
Oh yeah. Cole and the other front pages are trolling us to see who can get the most comments. Winner gets a case if Beast.
Howard Beale IV
@piratedan: France now apologizes to Bolivia based onve conflicting information.,
Larv
@NickT:
No, I meant how could you tell it was burned? Isn’t it always?
Or are you suggesting that Starbucks is actually a NSA front? That the coffee thing was just a trick to get people using the free wifi, thus enabling the NSA to eavesdrop on probably 50% of all US internet traffic? Hmmm, there could be something to that.
Howard Beale IV
@different-church-lady: Ha ha ha.
piratedan
@Howard Beale IV: aye, but no one mentions that the delay was US inspired, only that the Bolivians believe that it was so. This is post the information that they landed in Austria due to faulty fuel gauges, not because of some spy search. Looks like they didn’t believe that it was the President’s plane more than anything else.
magurakurin
@Corner Stone:
fracking. That is some serious fucked up bullshit.
TaMara (BHF)
@Emma: Schoolhouse Rock for the win!
different-church-lady
@Emma:
Well, you know, if you work hard enough and stick to it, eventually you get a chance to do just that. In front of nine judges, in fact.
Emma
@TaMara (BHF): I am a bill… I’m only a bill…
Emma
@different-church-lady: Yeah, but it takes one hell of a long time and more intestinal fortitude than most people have.
Howard Beale IV
@ruemara: Right now for all the billions in corporate welfare the NSA claims they stopped a lot of potential atatcks but tthen hide behind the shield of state secrets (which is itself a lie.)
Given the legion of events that have happened post-9/11, and with all of the whitewashing that has gone on as citizens of the United States under the ruse of ‘trust us’-that dog won’t hunt anymore.
Those people who have lost a sense of history, are going to have to re-live it.
different-church-lady
@Ash Can: It’s kinda like nobody can remember why “Freedom Fries” were on the menu for a while there.
patroclus
Is John trolling his own blog again? Virtually nothing contained in this post has been verified by anyone even remotely credible and sounds like some sort of truther/birther conspiracy theory. And Glenn Greenwald being gay is actually a point in his favor, even though he’s been more or less AWOL on our issues. I’m confused – is John just channeling his inner firebagger or does he really believe this stuff? This is just bizarre.
I guess I’ll have to await what Dear Leader Greenwald and Edward “Paul Revere” Snowden have to say on this one too…
debit
All righty then. I’m feeling just about the same way I did when I decided to walk away from the Great Orange Satan, so it’s time for a break. Catch you later, kids.
Howard Beale IV
@piratedan: That’s like closing the barn door after the cow had left. And since air traffic is a effectively a matter of public record, France’s ‘apology’ is starting to acquire an unwelcome smell.
different-church-lady
@Corner Stone: You have a lamp filter?
NickT
@different-church-lady:
You don’t have a lamp filter, you get bad genies.
patroclus
@debit: Man, I know the feeling – I haven’t been to DKos in months precisely because of posts like this. I think I’ll go enjoy the 4th of July.
Josie
Oh, good grief! I read this entire thread to see if anyone said anything differently than they did earlier or if anyone changed anyone else’s mind, and guess what. Big fat zero! Round and round we go. I am going out to dig in the dirt – it’s much more satisfying than reading this blog. And just to let you know how desperate I am, it is still 90 degrees outside.
burnspbesq
Damn. Late to the party. All the ribs and beer are gone, and the floor is ankle-deep in blood and puke. And there’s a huge scratch on Side 3 of Cole’s copy of Waiting for Columbus.
This must have been a hell of a thread.
Corner Stone
@debit: Don’t leave me debit! Not after all we’ve been through! NoooOOOooOO!!
LAC
@Corner Stone: some people have a happy hour. You have a bitchy hour.
piratedan
@Howard Beale IV: Howard, if you think that there are bigger machinations afoot, it’s your privilege to do so.. just remember, the NSA is watching your every post :-)
different-church-lady
@LAC: That’s an absurd accusation — an hour eventually ends.
magurakurin
@patroclus:
here’s my take on the DKOS. The blog, it’s on the left hand side. It’s still pretty okay and often has some interesting links. The right hand side, or as Kos likes to refer to it as…The Money Pot, that’s a fever swamp that you only look at for laughs. Not to be taken seriously. Kos really doesn’t take it seriously, so why should you or I?
oh, and never read the comments anywhere, at all.
NickT
@Corner Stone:
Don’t worry. Credit will be along shortly.
Corner Stone
Now Chris Hayes is using his straight white male privilege to also report this story. Who else will be drawn into this obviously fake fakery nothingburger?
Bastard.
Smiling Mortician
@LAC: Most happy hours are in fact several hours long. No idea what made me think of that.
ETA: I just can’t compete with church ladies, different or otherwise.
different-church-lady
@magurakurin: Truly bifurcated. And he could fix it in a heartbeat by adjusting the formula for things getting on the “wreck list” (which started off as a device to ensure good writing didn’t get buried and is now a device that rewards bad behavior). But he won’t do it. Maybe he doesn’t give a shit anymore, or maybe he really does see it at the Money Pot.
Howard Beale IV
@piratedan: That’s like watching your hated mother-in-law drive off the cliff in your new Lexus.
lojasmo
@chopper:
Not to mention, most of this metadata shit has been found to be constitutional by the SCOTUS.
But hey hey! Fuck Obama.
MomSense
@chopper:
I actually did slip on a banana peel once while walking my dog on trash day. It was the greatest comedic moment of my life and it was only witnessed by a couple of neighborhood dogs.
Lavocat
@Emma: Oh, we’re hillbillies alright. But not in Kentucky. Try Upstate NY.
FlipYrWhig
@lojasmo: But, see, it’s of utmost importance to say that it’s wrong wrong wrong, and to add that unless you’re constantly saying it’s wrong wrong wrong you’re part of the problem, and yet at the same time to scrupulously avoid saying anything about how to make the wrong wrong wrongness stop happening. You know, what people in the biz call being a “principled civil libertarian.”
kc
@FlipYrWhig:
Really, cause I have the feeling that the people defending everything Obama does will, in a few years, be howling with indignation when President Rubio does the same shit.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@lojasmo:
Would that be the same SCOTUS that handed down the Citizens United decision?
The same one that just struck down Section IV of the Voting Rights Act?
Just asking.
Corner Stone
Oh God. Rep Jerry Nadler is opening his pie hole again.
Whatever will that numbnuts say this time he has to have a spox retract after?
Corner Stone
Since I need Omnes to explain every thing to me, can he please return and tell me why the employer mandate of the ACA was delayed?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@piratedan:
Don’t forget Solyndra!
Dr. Squid
@Corner Stone: Yay for the real authority! Chris Hayes said it; that settles it!
Emma
@Lavocat: Oops. I think it was the MM with the judge that confused me. Too much time spent in Eastern Kentucky… NY is just as good.
different-church-lady
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: I’m afraid it would be one back in the ’70s.
That doesn’t refute your point entirely, but there it is.
leeleeFL
@NickT: you win the thread! I just choke- laughed almost senseless! Thanks
Higgs Boson's Mate
@different-church-lady:
They can derive far more from metadata now than they possibly could in the ’70s. Having the SCOTUS sign off on the practice back then does not ease my mind.
FlipYrWhig
@kc: I think a lot of people are going to have to learn that being skeptical of the more outlandish things vociferous Obama critics say is not the same thing as “defending everything Obama does.” In fact, in an amazing way, falling for bullshit has now become a shibboleth for membership in the True Left Critics Club. That doesn’t mean that all criticism is bullshit, but it does mean that all bullshit is not criticism.
lojasmo
@pokeyblow:
All laws are considered to be constitutional (by the governmental bodies which pass them) until challenged and ruled upon.
different-church-lady
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Nor mine. Just answering the question.
FlipYrWhig
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: That’s why it should go back into court and get hashed out all over again. There should be a muscular oversight regime in place, not a rubber stamp, or any appearance of rubber-stamp-ish-ness.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@NickT:
I already heard about the NSA burning Starbucks coffee so we brew our own at home. Though the NSA did put olive oil in our mayonnaise, which made for runny blue cheese dressing.
They’re pure evil I tells ya!
@patroclus:
Snowjob has been elevated to “Founding Father” status now. From MLK to Founding Father, what a rise!
Higgs Boson's Mate
@FlipYrWhig:
Oh hell yes. Congress (The Internet is a series of tubes) voted itself the oversight of the agencies. The FISA court is overseen by the FISA court. Neither circumstance inspires an iota of confidence in me.
The security state enablers love to say that these are new times requiring new methods. They just never get around to new regimes for oversight, or even the old regimes for that matter.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: This is a mischaracterization, of course.
It’s not about, “being skeptical of the more outlandish things” but rather that there exists a significant group of this commentariat that will, in fact, fight to the death to be skeptical of *any* critique or criticism of Obama. Hell. They start from the farthest outside edge and sniff their way into making any critique *become* about Obama, even if it never started that way.
Don’t try and paint it as outside the bullseye. These people will accept nothing, anywhere.
AHH onna Droid
@ruemara: Not moron but lepton. H/t Little Man Tate
amk
Did nsa burn cole’s panties? Then why is he in a twist?
AHH onna Droid
@kc: Obama isn’t sending gmen to intimidate dfhs with anti Obama posters on their walls?
I dont think pot dealers are big fans, tho.
AHH onna Droid
T@Corner Stone: troll harder.
different-church-lady
@Corner Stone: I’ll accept that. The question I have is, are you gonna keep painting with that wide-nozzle spray gun or are you gonna get around to cutting the trim with a nicely angled Purdy 1″?
Mnemosyne
I’m just wondering which ridiculous conspiracy theory Cole is going to buy into tomorrow. It’s been pretty funny to watch him left holding the bag after each “whoops! just kidding!” rumor falls through.
lojasmo
@Howard Beale IV:
Was it Paultard U?
Corner Stone
@different-church-lady: I reject your douchey question.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: I think the whole Snowden/NSA conversation has been to a large degree a stalemate between two camps, one saying “Snowden and Greenwald’s specific charges seem to be out on a limb here” but being heard as “Obama is totally right! And Greenwald’s a h0m0 from Brazil!”, the other saying “whoever’s in charge of the government, including Obama, shouldn’t have this kind of power, regardless of whether or not it’s technically legal” but being heard as “Bwahaha Obama totally pwnd! And you’re all authoritarians!” You know I like to try to find consensus. I think we actually have one! But John is pissing me off royally by acting like he would rather strut and preen about how he’s one of the few people who Gets It than actually trying to acknowledge the consensus that his own damn readers, Obots, Firebaggers, and everyone in between, actually have figured out.
Corner Stone
@AHH onna Droid: “The douche is strooooonnnggg with you!”
FlipYrWhig
@amk: I think what he’s in is technically not a snit but a swivet. Maybe a dither.
MomSense
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
1976 U.S. v Miller and 1979 Smith v. Maryland decisions so not the same court. I’m not saying that I agree with those decisions, just that they are not recent or post 9/11 rulings brought on by terror fever.
White Trash Liberal
Jesus on a 40 proof rubber crutch, John. Smh
FlipYrWhig
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
Probably so, but if that’s the standard, I don’t think very many of the Greenwald/Snowden skeptics around here are actually “security state enablers,” because we’ve been brainstorming oversight regimes for weeks.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig:
These are actual statements by the people you’re trying to claim as being reasonably skeptical about criticisms.
You are seriously mischaracterizing. What do you think all the forced “Yawn. Known. Burger” series came from? Those aren’t skeptics!
Bob In Portland
pokeyblow, did Nixon tell the burglars to go back and put the tape on the door again? Did Jimmy Carter tell the hostage rescue operation to crash a helicopter?
24 hours after the “incident” do we know that Morales’ plane was even prevented from flying over Western Europe? Did Obama’s minions do this? How? Who did Obama direct to do this? Through the State Dept? NATO? We need facts, not smug assholes.
PopeRatzo
@NickT:
Like I give a fuck about that insignificant tool. There are more important fish to fry.
Oh, and 2008 called and wants its Corsi reference back.
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
It’s an odd problem for a court, though, because it’s a matter of VOLUME more than a specific act.
If a phone number is like the outside of an envelope (no expectation of privacy) then is a court really going to weigh in on how thousands of envelopes or “sweeping” collection of phone numbers are different than one or ten or 1000?
I think they say “look we told you what you could do. We’re not going to tell you how many”
lojasmo
@Emma:
Corner Stone
How did I forget Mark Sanchez played Shia LaBeouf’s college roommate in Transformers: Revenge of The Fallen ?
different-church-lady
@Bob In Portland: We need people who are willing to be smug to power!
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Still waiting to hear your theory about how poor people don’t care about snail mail.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: I’ll carve out a narrow exception for the people who say that since we give personal information to companies there should be nothing to worry about when it comes to giving personal information to the government. But as with almost all the Greenwald flamewars there’s a lot of blurring that happens among “Greenwald hasn’t really proved what he thinks he proved” and “Greenwald’s a dick.” Which in turn produces a lot of blurring between “I don’t like Greenwald’s tendency to make claims that exceed his evidence” and “I don’t like Greenwald’s tendency to explain his claims by blaming Obama” and “I don’t like Greenwald because he criticizes Obama.” At any rate, I want to just put in a caveat here that being reluctant to go all in with the Greenwald/Snowden presentation of the NSA’s actions is not the same thing as saying all actions undertaken by the NSA are hunky-dory as long as Good Man Obama is in charge. And I think too many people, John included, are REALLY eager to receive it that way because it authorizes them to ridicule the simpletons and tribalists and authoritarians in their midst — rather than actually listening to what people are actually saying.
different-church-lady
@FlipYrWhig: Why you keep trying to find common ground with a person determined to have a fight?
PopeRatzo
@FlipYrWhig:
Not if any part of that consensus includes a belief that Barack Obama both competent and benign.
Not any more.
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
It reminds me a little of stop and frisk. Stop and frisk is okay on reasonable suspicion. But (apparently) Bloomberg is stopping and frisking a lot of people.
What does a court do with that? “You may stop …121 weekly. We didn’t know you were going to go crazy with it”
They just seem unsuited to this question.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay: I think it may have happened since the dawn of the cell phone that phone numbers have started to feel, experientially, affectively, more personal/private. Through my digits you know me, because my cell is like an appendage of my body. Maybe it’s less like the outside of an envelope anymore. And if that’s true, then the parallel breaks down, and new rules and laws are required.
Eric U.
since it’s hard to ratchet back the security apparatus once it takes over, I have to think John Cole should be shaking his finger at a mirror. The rest of the people on this blog most likely tried to do something about Bush’s implementation of this stuff in the first place. I’m really at a loss as to what I’m supposed to do now. It really doesn’t seem like there is anything useful to be done. As many have said, the most fruitful thing is to contact your congresscritters. Obama has limited powers to stop legal activities by the three letter agencies.
MomSense
@FlipYrWhig:
I think there is another challenge in all of this and that has to do with the tension between respecting the three equal branches of government and how they are supposed to function and reconciling respect for the design of the system with the a$$holes who get elected or nominated. The reason it is challenging is because someone like Michelle Bachmann can be on the House Intelligence Committee or Scalia/Alito/Thomas can serve for life and really fuck shit up!
So on the one hand we don’t want to scrap the Constitution and we also are frustrated by some of the players. I don’t agree with the Patriot Act, with many SCOTUS decisions or with FISA and yet we are talking about laws that have oversight by all three branches of government. I am not prepared to summarily dismiss oversight by all three branches of government of programs that are following the laws. When I try to counter some of the claims as I consider them to be exaggerated or inaccurate I am then accused of being authoritarian. What I would really like to discuss is how we move from the current laws to ones that I think sway the balance more toward privacy and civil rights. Ironically this is a conversation that the President tried to start in his big foreign policy speech before the NSA leaks started. The problem is that we have a long way to go to move the population from where we are now (with the balance more toward security). I also want to maintain our form of government and elect better representatives to serve in the Executive and Legislative branches so we will have a better Judicial branch. This kind of discussion is not particularly well suited to internet blogs.
Howard Beale IV
@lojasmo: Go look at the article in question and you can answer that question.
Infamous Heel-Filcher
So, in this thread, we have citations showing that western European nations (France in particular) has confirmed closing their airspace to Morales’ flight.
We also have a thread full of denialists insisting it was all a faulty fuel gauge.
Classic.
Odie Hugh Manatee
I gotta admit that with this thread John is making sure that this place stays true to its old motto:
Hot Air and Ill Informed Banter
Bingo man, fucking dead on!
different-church-lady
@Infamous Heel-Filcher: Your reading comprehension problems are yours, not ours.
Mnemosyne
@Infamous Heel-Filcher:
It’s pretty amazing how us denialists got Morales’ pilot on tape talking to Austrian air traffic control about the faulty fuel gauge, innit?
Cacti
Even the liberal Kevin Drum is going for the crude racist critiques.
But he meant it in a totally ironic, hipster way.
MomSense
@Kay:
I am of the opinion that the more numbers swept up in the collection, the less likely that anything significant will happen to my particular number.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@MomSense:
I don’t think it’s ironic, because I don’t think it’s coincidence that the timing of the leaks was coincidental- the same way I don’t think that John “Don’t Touch My Junk” Tyner’s (the Greenwald-coached libertarian who offered not as the alternative an end to departure gate searches, but privatization of the TSA as an end run around the 4th Amendment) antics were merely coincidental to the TSA workers’ attempts to unionize.
Mnemosyne
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
See, now, that’s the wrongthink conspiracy theory, as opposed to the rightthink conspiracy theory that Obama is illegally spying on us all. Bad Max, bad.
eemom
@FlipYrWhig:
Could be a hissy fit. Also too, a tizzy.
PopeRatzo
@Eric U.:
Every single head of those “three letter agencies” is subject to the authority, direction, and control of the President, including the Director of National Intelligence and the head of the NSA.
He can fire the boss of any or all of those agencies, except the Fed, and if he wanted, he could ask the head of that agency to step down.
“It’s not his fault” is not acceptable any more.
Mnemosyne
@PopeRatzo:
And who confirms the new appointment?
Think before you answer.
ETA: Though if you want a really fun conspiracy theory, notice how this whole story broke after the Republicans’ Most Hated Official, Susan Rice, was named to head the NSA. But I’m sure it’s all a coinkydink, amirite?
PopeRatzo
@Mnemosyne:
How you gonna deny away the fact that Austrian authorities searched the plane while it was on the ground, checking the passports of all aboard?
Were they hoping to find a replacement fuel gauge in one of those passports?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Mnemosyne:
Hey, in this case, anyway, get control of the talking points and keep pushing and spinning ’em while nothing else is happening…Why do you think it is that Greenwald and Snowden made it about illegal, unwarranted domestic spying back in the first week of June rather than making it about having a conversation concerning FISC judges’ rubber stamps?
mclaren
@Corner Stone:
Bootlicking is the new charge up San Juan Hill in post-9/11 America. Our new slogans are now: DARE TO BE SERVILE! WHIMPER LIKE A HERO! CRINGE LIKE A REAL MAN!
We’ve succeeded in converting ourselves into a nation of born serfs and craven toadies. Future generations will gape in wonder as they gaze back at the nation of quislings who revealed themselves as 300 million spineless protoplasmic quivering jellies after 11 September 2001.
Kay
@MomSense: @MomSense:
Right, but that isn’t what they’re doing with them. They’re doing what law enforcement always do, look for patterns.
My juveniles are always shocked that police “find” their friends. There’s 7000 people in this town. Once they pick one up for one thing, they just find a connection among that group of people
on another. I can do it myself. I see the same names over and over.
That to me seems to be the concern for people, not one number but a picture that could appear with a bunch of their numbers. That’s why I don’t think courts are suited to it. It seems the “sweeping” is the offense, not “phone number as envelope”, individually.
amk
@PopeRatzo:
Corner Stone
@Kay:
This seems important somehow…
Corner Stone
@amk: Did you, um, read any of the article you linked to?
“France has apologised to Bolivia for refusing to allow President Evo Morales’ jet into its airspace, blaming “conflicting information”.
Mnemosyne
@PopeRatzo:
So do you think Morales knows his pilot is a secret CIA mole who faked a problem with the fuel gauge?
Myself, I think the Austrians decided to fuck with Morales once he was on the ground because he’s not quite as universally popular as you seem to think, particular with Austria’s EU ally, Spain, but I realize that any explanation that does not use the US as a major player will be dismissed by you.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Haven’t you heard? France, Spain, and Austria are all US vassal states. Comparable to that hellhole Sweden that Julian Assange had to flee, because nobody gets a fair trial there.
Hey, it’s kind of fun to just make it up as you go along.
Mnemosyne
@PopeRatzo:
Or here’s another conspiracy theory I’ve pulled out of my ass: maybe it turns out that some of the information that Snowden is showing people involves NATO spying operations in conjunction with the NSA, which might make some NATO member countries (like Spain) eager to get hold of Snowden.
But I’m sure that’s crazy talk because it’s only the US that spies on other countries, amirite?
mclaren
@Corner Stone:
Reading is for proles. It interferes with the involuntary response to fall to one’s knees before those in power.
amk
@Corner Stone: Yeah, I did. So, what do you make of it ? Especially, given their tantrums just 24 hours ago about nsa snooping and threats of taking their ball away and going home?
My take- no one wants the spyboy in their space.
amk
@mclaren: Yes mclaren, you’re the true hero that is standing between the death of human race and freedumb. We bow before you
Mnemosyne
@mclaren:
That’s especially funny coming from someone who’s notorious for not reading the articles you link to all the way through to discover they actually contradict the point you were making.
But my migraine and I need to go lay down again for a while, so I’ll have to check back later to see which atrocity films you accuse me of jerking off to this time.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Mnemosyne:
That ain’t conspiracy theory, it’s common sense.
ETA: Snowden, while he was still a government employee, was based. for a while, at a military base in Japan. Think about that.
MomSense
@Kay:
Oh I get that they are looking for patterns but I do think that what freaks people out is the idea that the NSA has all the numbers. I’m just saying that I prefer to be one of millions of numbers as opposed to finding myself in the smaller sets of numbers. There are not enough human beings on the planet to actually spy or surveill the millions of numbers set.
As it turns out, I was part of 4 of the groups whose communications were being intercepted during the Bush administration. Maine is a small state so there is a lot of overlap among little peace groups. We did manage to stop the illegal Bush wiretapping/collection schemes and get the Congress to reauthorize FISAA but we didn’t get enough privacy protections into the legislation. There is a lot of work to do and I do not think that Snowden and Greenwald have helped the cause at all. But I’m sure I am dismissed as an authoritarian Obot by many of the commentariat because I am not freaking out about something far less damaging than what I have already experienced. That is not to say I like the Patriot Act, FISA, etc. Both things can be true at the same time.
Kay
@Corner Stone:
Well, I knew you were going to do that. I get your point, but it’s really unrealistic to ask police not to.look for patterns. It’s what they do.
They’re not just randomly picking them up, Cornerstone. They’re questioning people connected to other people in connection with a crime. It really is their job. They’re not shipping them off to the
gulag or anything.
I see the concern with “metadata” but I don’t think it helps your case to broaden this to what is ordinary police practice.
LAC
@mclaren: especially when one’s leader swans about in brazil.
Hill Dweller
If any of those countries denied the Bolivian plane access to their airspace, I doubt it was at our doing. More likely they were trying to avoid becoming involved in the Snowden affair. Their respective governments would be injecting themselves into a no-win situation. Either give Snowden asylum, which would infuriate the US, or hand him over to us, which would infuriate some of their citizens.
Corner Stone
@Kay: Jesus Christ. Please.
No shit cops look for patterns. Stop talking like no one but you discovered this. Unlike our security apparatus, they have to follow the fucking rules or it gets tossed once in a while.
Not even close to the point of any of this. Your response is silly.
ETA, I re-read your stupid fucking response and it made me angrier the second and third times through. Fuck you.
Corner Stone
I mean shit. Really? Like Aaron Hernandez got picked up and they wanted to talk to known associates to flesh out their case? Like that you mean? Really?
Like when they asked police in FL for details on other things AH might be related to?
geebz.
jayjaybear
And so falls Balloon Juice. At this rate, the only place to find sane discussion about Snowden will be Little Green Footballs.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@MomSense:
They aren’t playing this to help anyone but other libertarians. If it’s a private entity doing the snooping, it’s fine, because the 4th Amendment applies to governments in the US, ya see? If someone, say an attorney defending a white supremacist, wants to spy on you in order to provide his client the best defense possible, that’s fine. If some corporate Galtians want to squash labor as its organizing in some Caucasus oil region, it’s fine to get that government to gun ’em down, it’s fine for young Galtians to spin for the corporate Galtians, but it’s wrong to criticize any of the Galtians (I’d link something for you here, but the name of a certain Roman senator who’s got a modern libertarian think tank named for him triggers the spam filter here these days) . Your cause means nothing to them. In the long run, all they want is unfettered liberty for ubermenschen such as themselves. Never forget that.
Just a quibble here, over something I’ve been seeing quite a bit lately. The Patriot Act opened us up to some pretty nasty shit. FISA, otoh, was a set of reforms enacted to end a lot of nasty shit. Could FISA be strengthened- that is, could it be amended to strengthen Constitutional protections of individuals? Yeah, sure. But, unlike the Patriot Act, it has always been a good thing.
Corner Stone
@jayjaybear: Can’t tell you how happy I am every time someone here cites LGF as expert testimony.
A real beaut.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Do you have any opinion on the FISC itself writing the opinion that warrants surveilling millions of Americans was unconstitutional?
amk
@jayjaybear:
Covered before
mclaren
@Mnemosyne:
Do you have any evidence to back your vacuous claim? Of course you don’t. As usual, your name-calling and character assassination is fact-free, based on the usual McCarthy-style smears rather than actual proof.
As someone who has publicly admitted that you had “serious mental problems” while in high school, you’ll want to be a little more careful when making these kinds of wild unfounded allegations. Otherwise folks are liable to suspect that those serious mental problems of your might have worsened over the years, to the point where they now involve hearing voices and seeing things…
mclaren
@amk:
Thank you for providing the smoking gun, conclusive proof of your cringing servility. Like all serfs, your first and overriding impulse is to bow before someone.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: Federal laws are presumptively constitutional. Lawyers and even judges may believe them to be unconstitutional (and lawyers are free to argue that they are unconstitutional), but, strictly speaking, laws remain “constitutional” unless and until an Article III judge says otherwise in deciding a case.Those laws may be immoral, and a decision finding them constitutional may be indefensible, but as a matter of law the laws are “constitutional” until someone with the authority to say so says they aren’t. You are confusing a natural truth (some Platonic ideal of the Constitution that doesn’t exist) with legal status.
ETA: Oh, and shove your misogynistic bullying appeal to authority up your ass.
amk
@mclaren: Yes, my fearless freedumb fighter. We all live because of you.
mclaren
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Whoops, actually the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995 introduced by our beloved Vice President, Joe Biden, when he was a senator. In panicked authoritarian response to the 1995 Murragh Building federal bombing by Terry McNichol and company. (An event which no one seems to recall today. But big news then.)
The USA Patriot Act is in fact nothing but Biden’s 1995 Omnibus Counterterrrorism Act of 1995 spruced up a little. All the key provisions of the Patriot Act are present in the earlier 1995 Omnibus Counterterrorism Act.
Source: wikipedia entry on Omnibus Counterrorism Act of 1995 introduced by senator Joe Biden on behalf of the Clinton administration. That bill was voted down because its provisions were too totalitarian: “Civil liberty advocacy groups opposed the bill on the grounds that it would violate fundamental civil liberties, including the right to confront one’s accuser.” But of course after 9/11, such trivial concerns as fundamental constitutional rights went out the window.
We now resume the regularly scheduled fellation of Joe Biden and Barack Obama, the man who gave us the USA Patriot Act Act and the first president to order the extrajudicial murder of a U.S. citizen without accusing him of a crime or offering him the right to a trial.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
I’d be happy if that decision stands. If it’s overturned by a higher court, I’d like to see the winning argument before passing judgment as to whether or not it’s the worst decision ever.
Keith G
@Cacti: I see you are typing this on other threads. Must be important. I assume you have read the post in question.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@jayjaybear:
It has already reached that point. John has finally made the full spectrum move politically, far right to far left. The next move is to jump back to the right side and start over…lol!
Damned converts are always the most enthusiastic about their religion.
mclaren
@patroclus:
Why wait? Why not fire up your secret soshulist-designed shortwave radio set and receive your orders, as I do, directly from that running dog reptile Greenwald who subverts everything good and holy about America?
I’d love to continue this thrilling badinage, but as you know my Internationale cell leader Greenwald has commanded me to press forward with unrelenting vigor my fifth column comsymp operations to undermine the Greatest Nation © the World Has Ever Known.™ ®
Cacti
@Keith G:
How cute. I’ve got my own cyber-Zimmerman.
mclaren
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
This is what qualifies as “far left” in America in 2013: suggesting that it might not be constitutional for the president of the united states to order the murder of U.S. citizens without a trial and without criminal charges.
Watch out if John Cole comes out for cutting the pay of CEOs and raising the minimum wage. Then he’ll be accused of worshiping satan and consorting with witches…
MomSense
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
I agree about FISA–I would like to change some of the provisions and I do think it is an important safeguard. I understand the need to change it to account for the change in technology since the original but I don’t like some of the provisions.
I don’t want to speculate on Greenwald or Snowden’s motivations but I will say that Greenwald’s tactics never actually advance progressive causes. One has to wonder why that is.
Keith G
@Cacti:That’s a creepy use of a tragic event.
pokeyblow
@Bob In Portland: Huh?
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: Listen, dickhead, there is a difference between “considered to be” and “by definition are.”
You don’t like that? Fine, talk with illiterates like Emma.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@mclaren:
Pssst! This is the thread about ObamaSpiez!, not ObamaDronz! I know, I know, it’s easy to get confused when you are so excited about all of the mini-mclarens who have joined you in your paranoid fantasies here.
Focus, focus…
mclaren
@MomSense:
But then you do exactly that, by imputation:
Indeed. Greenwald’s actions in exposing the NSA spying program have produced absolutely no reaction among the general population of the U.S., and certainly has not fired up progressives to demand accountability from their government.
(Oops! As the ever-reliable Mnemosyne reminds us, I constantly link to articles which prove exactly the opposite of what I claim — so this link to the BBC website carrying the headline Mass protests planned over web NSA spying revelations actually proves that the American population loves the NSA spying on their emails and phone conversations, and that Americans overwhelmingly applaud Obama for aiding and abetting this activity by the NSA. Thanks for clearing that up for us, Mnemosyne. Once again you’ve cut right through the fog of misleading news reports and shown us the truth of the situation.)
Would it be irresponsible to speculate? It would be irresponsible not to! The obvious answer is that Glenn Greenwald is a traitor, an enemy of everything fine and decent that Rome every built–
Oh. Wait. That’s Marcus Licinius Crassus’ speech from the 1960 film Spartacus.
Well, no worries, it works just as well as your post, doesn’t it?
pokeyblow
@mclaren: William of Ockham wouldn’t fit in among the regulars here.
mclaren
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Indeed, we must compartmentalize at all costs. Because elint intelligent-gathering is surely not used to narrow down which SEAL teams of assassins to send to take out a “high-value target” (AKA an American citizen who persists in criticizing his government while in a foreign country) or “dangerous terrorist leaders” (better known as “Pakistani wedding parties”).
Focus! Focus! It’s not Obama who is killing American citizens without a trial, it’s SEAL teams of assassins. And it’s not even the SEAL assassins, it’s their bullets. But it’s not even their bullets — it’s merely Newton’s laws of motion, F = ma.
You see? Obama didn’t murder U.S. citizens without a trial, the forces of physics did. Move along folks, nothing to see here…
And for our next trick we’ll prove that “no one is to blame, and everyone is responsible” and that those who committed the atrocities and unconstitutional grotesqueries were “only following orders” and thus should not be blamed.
If you could throw in a little historical-dialectic “demands of history” and “evolution of the peasant masses in response to the oppressors” you’d get to the proper level of abstraction appropriate for Pol Pot’s Year Zero.
Forward, comrades, to the great New Paradise! Ignore those mountains of dead bodies in the killing fields around you! Focus! Focus!
mclaren
@pokeyblow:
I fear not; Mnemosyne would grab his razor and go on a spree with it.
Cacti
@mclaren:
Surely Lincoln was history’s greatest monster then, no? All those southerners killed without arrest, charge, or trial.
pokeyblow
@mclaren: What part of “look forward, not backward” don’t you understand?
It’s the motto among most here.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: You’re the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about , you shitguzzling hamsterfucking son of a syphilitic whore.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: You’re not impressing me, and I doubt you’re impressing Emma, and I suspect, in the event, you’d regret doing so were that to happen.
So sad. When is the last time you got laid? Must have been a pretty sorry spectacle.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@mclaren:
Then don’t stick to one subject man, keep ranting on the internet! It’s a surefire way to win friends, influence people and change history!!
I’ll let you get back to the group reacharound you all have been busy giving each other. Please, proceed!
Cacti
Here we are on the 150th anniversary of Gettysburg, when the tyrant Lincoln had 4,708 southern whistleblowers shot down without the benefit of due process. Shame on you Abe.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: Yeah, your mom isn’t very good.
eemom
While this clusterfuck rages on, Cole is upstairs ranting about sinks.
Jussayinzall.
mclaren
It fascinates me, by the way, that none of the obots ever seem to discern the link twixt government spying and the murders carried out by the American stasi in the name of freedom/justice/safety/[insert this week’s buzzword — mom, apple pie, the stars & stripes, little puppy dogs].
Let’s step through that vicious circle, shall we?
Step 1: The American national security stasi get tasked with protecting America from terrorist attacks. But that’s hard! Much easier to identify U.S. political movements the people in control of the U.S. government and economy don’t like, declare them “terrorists,” and imprison or murder them. Problem solved!
Step 2: But how to do this? Ah, spy on the American people. That’s the answer.
Step 3: And conveniently, the more the government spies on the American people, the more traitors they find — and the more traitors they find, the bigger must become the powers and funding and reach of the American national security stasi. It’s a great big wonderful world of feed-foward synergies, isn’t it?
Thus endeth the lesson in how to destroy a democracy and turn it into a tyranny.
But of course talk about “tyranny” in America is silly stuff, mere piffle, why, it’s crazy talk! That would imply that the U.S. military has now granted itself the power to police the streets of America without state or local consent, which is surely not happening in this country, no sirree!
It’s a darn good thing Mnemosyne has pointed out that I constantly link to articles proving the exactly opposite of what I claim, because otherwise some gullible fool would think by reading that article that Boston locked down its streets and emptied the roads and sidewalks of everything but military troops in armored personnel carriers in gross violation of the posse comitatus act. Fortunately, we know nothing like that ever happened in Boston during that manhunt for those two bombers. Thanks for setting us straight, Mnemosyne. You’re a gem.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: Wow! I really got served!
Anyway, good luck getting some. From someone. At some time. In some way… for some money.
And here’s a hint: all librarians like dictionaries. Some really need them! It’s a perfect gift for the girl you’re itchin’ for!
amk
@Cacti: You’re arguing with take-my-country-back-from-the-kenyan-muslin racist crowd. Nastiness is their proud hallmark.
Redshirt
I just hope we get more and worse Republicans out of this. Then we can all rest easy.
pokeyblow
@mclaren: If there were a Muse of “things which didn’t happen, but would be convenient for the point you’re trying to make had they happened, and you have them ready,” she would have chosen that name.
Lacking that Muse, and having a devious sense of humor, she named herself after the Muse of Memory.
A very sweet trolling of Classics students. Liddell and Scott are spinning nearly as fast as Ockham.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@mclaren:
The section of that bill that I found most odious- the denial of the right of someone facing deportation to face secret accusers- was pretty fucking bad. But Biden had the same reservations.
As for that Biden quote: I’d like to see it in context.
@mclaren:
Whose calling hi a traitor here? What I loathe about him is that beyond his stance on a few issues related to the Bill of Rights, he comes across as nothing more than a standard right-wing, laissez-faire libertarian whose vision of the future differs little from that of Ayn Rand.
pokeyblow
@Redshirt: Because hoping for better democrats is crazy racist talk.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: As opposed to your itching. You really should see a doctor about that.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: I like funny, original insults. I also like interesting, supported arguments.
So I guess I don’t like talking with you. Please don’t make me into your crush and stalk me… you’re boring. Go for it with Emma, though… one senses she’s in desperate straits similar to yours.
Redshirt
@pokeyblow: You’re working hard on that, I assume.
pokeyblow
@Redshirt: I would say yes I am.
Bobby Thomson
You are an idiot with just enough knowledge to make a fool of yourself, so I’m dumbing it down to your level.
Stalking? Don’t like it when someone punches back, huh?
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: OK, did I punch you first?
Or did you address me rudely trying to rescue your lady[sic]-love-librarian?
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: The librarian is not the issue, dude. I’m talking about unchecked aggression. You think way too highly of yourself on a subject where you are flat out fucking wrong.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: Did I attack you first, or did you attack me?
You said you were punching back. Please answer my question.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: I corrected you. You responded like the whiny punk ass bitch you are. So I gave you a taste of your own medicine.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: It’s such a simple question, Never-laid.
Did I attack you first, or did you attack me first? Because if I didn’t attack you first, you weren’t punching back.
Why is English so hard for you and your girlfriend?
Recall, this all started when she lectured me on what was defined as what.
But… all you can think about is the sweet nectar. I’ll bet you really like it, based on what your friends told you.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: Oh, I’m sorry, With your statements decrying illiteracy I assumed you could read and comprehend what I wrote. You attacked me first. You lash out at a lot of people. Obviously overcompensating for something.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: Tell me about the Shot Heard ‘Round the World.
You must have been tugging like a sonofabitch for that one.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: Ralph Branca threw a softball down the plate. Sort of like someone unfamiliar with the presumption of constitutionality presuming to lecture others on what it means for a statute to be constitutional.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: EXCELLENT! An answer to a question! There’s hope for you! [sic]
I see that in #299 above, you say “Oh, and shove your misogynistic bullying appeal to authority up your ass.” To me.
Now please do the responsible thing and show me the earlier post (here or in another thread, knock yourself out), where I went ad hominem against you.
Come on, Neverlaid. Correct me.
Redshirt
See? Assange will destroy us all.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: But you’re not the Bobby Thomson who hit that ball.
You’re the never-laid tugger, from all appearances.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: Tell me, tugger, does “something is presumed to be X” mean the same as “something is defined as X” ?
Unless your dictionary pages are all gummed together, you should be able to answer that simple, direct question.
Gravenstone
I’d like to thank everyone involved in this debacle for motivating me to finally update the denizens of Cleek’s pie filter. CornerStone was getting a little lonely in there.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: Oh dear. For someone who goes on about how words have meaning, it must be embarrassing for you not to understand what an ad hominem attack is.
See, it’s that fancy Latin shit, and means “to the man.” Stated differently, an ad hominem attack goes after the person and not their argument. You know, like calling someone a dickhead.
White Trash Liberal
Stasi. Lol. Lol. Lol.
McLaren, if there was an American Stasi, you wouldn’t be pumping up the volume of your Freedom Rock. You would keep your opinions to yourself or you would be gone.
The whole point is to reform the system to prevent a Stasi from happening. Not cry that it’s already here.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: I know what it means.
And I called you a dickhead, before I knew what a manic neverlaid jagoff you really were.
But I did so after post #299. In which you said, to me: “shove your misogynistic bullying appeal to authority up your ass.”
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: I can tell you that by definition, a law is constitutional until a judge says it ain’t. That’s what a legal presumption is. Just like no one is guilty of anything until a judge or jury has said they are. That’s what it means to be guilty, or unconstitutional. Now run along home before you hurt yourself.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: Answer my question about punching back and comment #299, Neverlaid.
White Trash Liberal
And LOL at someone on the Internet saying YOU HIT ME FIRST.
Here’s a crazy straw. Suck it the fuck up, champ.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: Still not clear on the whole ad hominem thing, eh, slugger? That was an attack on your fallacious argument, not a personal attack on you.
But it’s clear you are a slow learner.
ETA: WTA makes a good point. Since you are, in fact, a shitguzzling, hamsterfucking son of a syphilitic whore, does it really matter whether I pointed that out as a retaliatory escalation or as a simple declarative statement?
Redshirt
FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: LOL LOL!
Neverlaid, how in the fucking fuck can you say “shove your misogynistic bullying appeal to authority up your ass.” is an attack on my argument?
Come on, I gave you another chance. Big mistake. You are the worthless, tugging, neverlaid dumbfuck I figured you to be before.
How sad. It’s a shame, because librarians can be fun. Even — perhaps especially — stupid ones.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: I realize you never learned about logic, but an appeal to authority is an argument. A bad one. A logical fallacy, even. I suppose to the extent what I said could be interpreted as saying you have a large ass, then yeah, maybe ad hominem. But that was unintentional.
If I had wanted to be intentional about it, I would have cast aspersions on the size of your “manhood” by suggesting you fornicate with rodents.
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: You’re in NickT territory now. I’m smiling wide, which you shouldn’t take as a sign of respect.
Tell us again about the Shot Heard ‘Round the Biscuit.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: You’re smiling wide? Moving up from hamsters to goats, huh?
pokeyblow
@Bobby Thomson: Boring again.
Tugger, don’t get too mad at me. I don’t want you to punish me with that Popeye forearm of yours.
One last thing: what your friends said about getting laid is true. Ordinarily I’d be sad about you missing out, but, well, I’m delighted.
Bobby Thomson
@pokeyblow: That’s OK. I’m not into hamsters. You can keep them all to yourself.
Night all.
Mandalay
@the blogosphere is a sad hole:
No, it is the story where the US Government admitted this:
Of course the wilfully blind will insist that this doesn’t mean that the US pressured France, Spain, Italy and Portugal to fuck with Morales’ flight plans, and they will ignore France’s apology to Bolivia for not allowing Morales’ plane to use French airspace..
They’ll continue to insist that the whole thing is a Bolivian fabrication.
sparky
Bobby Thomson and Pokeyblow: I started at the end of the thread and read forward, and all I can say is this.
LAC
@Corner Stone: day two and you are still telling people to fuck themselves. How brilliant .
pokeyblow
@sparky: I like trombones, and sadness is part of life.
Thanks for hooking me up with that!
Odie Hugh Manatee
@LAC:
To be fair, he just figured out how to do it to himself and he’s trying to share his new found knowledge.
Redshirt
Now that the fight is over, I’d like to have a practice internet fight with someone. I won’t really mean anything I say, it will just be for sport. Who’s game?
Mandalay
@Emma:
I’ve noticed that on BJ that there is no tolerance of racism on a personal level, yet it is perfectly fine to make condescending and racist comments at the country level.
Your comment shows you to be an stereotypical Ugly American, and says nothing at all about Bolivia, which is actually a wonderful place.
Hill Dweller
@Mandalay: Why do you think the countries you named refused to let the Bolivian plane use their airspace?
Emma
@Mandalay: Asshole. Self-important wanker. Ugly American? There’s no uglier American than the ones like yourselves, so convinced that the world is controlled by a secret cabal of Americans that can terrify every nation state into doing its bidding. Because God knows no country can have its own self-interest or its own self-determination because the Mighty American CIA/NSA/whatever alphabet soup your pissing your pants about can reach out and force France or Spain or anyone — except little Bolivia — to do its bidding.
You know who Latin Americans despise? People like you. You visit Latin America and look at it with the supercilious eyes of a gringo who comes back to his safe little corner of the world to moan and bitch in the full knowledge that you will live a nice, safe life. Latin Americans can deal with imperialist assholes; that’s what America has always been. It’s the phony liberals with their phony concerns that they can’t stand.
different-church-lady
FIGURE TWO: And this pattern is always the same?
FIGURE ONE: With few variations. They pick
the most dangerous enemy they can find . . .
and it’s themselves. And all we need do is sit
back . . . and watch.
FIGURE TWO: Then I take it this place . . .
this Balloon Juice . . . is not unique.
FIGURE ONE (shaking his head ): By no means.
Their world is full of Balloon Juices. And we’ll
go from one to the other and let them destroy
themselves. One to the other . . . one to the
other . . . one to the other—
different-church-lady
But really, why should anyone let that keep them from drawing up their own hardened, absolute conclusions about exactly what happened and why, and then shrieking about it at the top of their lungs?
Death Panel Truck
@NickT: Only in America do we have contests for the world champion glutton while half the world starves.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@different-church-lady:
As long as we are at each others throats then that means that we leave their throats alone? It sounds too easy.
Death Panel Truck
@BillinGlendaleCA: Dude, no.
pattonbt
@PopeRatzo: I’ll play! Maybe because they had a foreign plane land on their soil unplanned and wanted to make sure the people on the plane were who they said they were. Border officials are like that you know.
Or I guess it’s easier for you to assume the Austrian border officials went “Sure, come on in, land, check things out, walk around. Oh, you say your the president of Bolivia? Thats great. Dont mind us, we wont bother checking out who you are.”
I would be shocked if they hadnt checked everyone on the plane.
Try this out. Get a pilots license. Make a flight plan for Belize (leaving from the US). Over Mexico say you need to make an emergency landing. Land. See how you are greeted. Let me know how it went once you’ve done it. Unplanned planes dont just land in sovereign countries and go unchecked.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mandalay: In Europe, the English mock the French, the Scots mock the English, the Germans don’t mock but invade instead, and everyone mocks the Belgians – and Americans. It doesn’t make it right, but it does show that it is not limited to Americans.