Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

“Squeaker” McCarthy

Let’s finish the job.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

He really is that stupid.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

Good lord, these people are nuts.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

Let there be snark.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

Their freedom requires your slavery.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Infrastructure week. at last.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

We are aware of all internet traditions.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Monday Evening Open Thread: Good News

Monday Evening Open Thread: Good News

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From the Washington Post:

President Obama on Monday called a Russian proposal for Syria to turn over control of its chemical weapons to international monitors in order to avoid a military strike a “potentially positive development,” that could represent a “significant breakthrough,” but he said he remains skeptical the Syrian government would follow through on its obligations based on its recent track record.

“Between the statements that we saw from the Russians — the statement today from the Syrians — this represents a potentially positive development,” Obama said in an interview with NBC News, according to a transcript provided by the network. “We are going to run this to ground. [Secretary of State] John Kerry will be talking to his Russian counterpart. We’re going to make sure that we see how serious these proposals are.”

In a separate interview with ABC, Obama said that if Assad were to give up his chemical weapons, a military strike would “absolutely’ be on pause.

The proposal by Russian Foreign Minister Sergey V. Lavrov in Moscow offered the first indication that a diplomatic solution may be possible to the international standoff that has evolved since apparent chemical weapons attacks on rebel-held suburbs outside Damascus on Aug. 21….

Harry Reid has delayed the Senate vote scheduled for Wednesday, which I believe pushes the timetable into next week.

I’m not generally a fan of Winston Churchill, but I agree with his maxim that “Jaw-jaw is always better than war-war”.

Reader Interactions

269Comments

  2. 2.

    Cygil

    Yeah well, remember that before we start saying that “the pen is mightier than the sword”, remember that’s only when the pen has the sword to back it up. As in this case.

  4. 4.

    MikeJ

    Funny how the emos who want to complain about the way Obama negotiates don’t like this either. You don’t get a counter proposal without a proposal.

  5. 5.

    Culture of Truth

    President Obama on Monday called a called a Russian proposal for Syria to turn over control of its chemical weapons to international monitors

    It was Kerry’s proposal, taken up by Russia. Except when Kerry said it, it was a terrible gaffe. I know because Jake Tapper said so.

  7. 7.

    Hill Dweller

    The Russian proposal, which was in reaction to Kerry’s “offhand comment”, but was purportedly discussed when Obama met with Putin, is now our saving grace?

    Does Obama get to keep his Presidency?

  10. 10.

    Omnes Omnibus

    This is a good thing all around. The chemical weapons are removed from the equation, the US (and France) forcefully stood up against the use of the weapons, Russia gets to be a peacemaker, and no random Syrians get killed to make a point. Hopefully, all the details get worked out.

  12. 12.

    Morbo

    I’m not generally a fan of Winston Churchill, but I agree with his maxim that “Jaw-jaw is always better than war-war”.

    #handsoffsyria is it then?

  16. 16.

    Emerald

    @Cygil: As Hillary said today, they have to believe you’ll actually do it.

    I said over on the GOS, I was pretty sure he never intended actually to lob the missiles into Syria when he decided to go through Congress–which he did not have to do. He also said that he’s got a pretty good polling operation and knew full well what the public would think.

    So why go through Congress when you know they’ll say no? It could only be because you don’t really intend to fire the missiles. (But I sure didn’t see this coming.)

    Then the Putin meeting (which they were not going to do at all, remember), and Kerry makes this little “slip” in his news conference, and voila: problem gets solved, nobody gets killed.

    I believe the POTUS in the process of winning a pretty ballsy bluff. Obama is a political ninja.

  17. 17.

    Baud

    How does Obama get House Republicans to vote for war? He pretends he doesn’t want it by negotiating a peaceful resolution to the conflict.

    And you Obots fell for it.

    11-D chess, baby!

  18. 18.

    JPL

    If they are able to resolve this situation, what will the republican party leader say. Shuck and Jive seems so yesterday.

  19. 19.

    TaMara (BHF)

    So the American people expressed their discomfort with blowing up Syria and it looks like President Obama may have just found a way, while strengthening the US- Russia relationship.

    He is the worst president ever, isn’t he? #impeachnow

  20. 20.

    lamh36

    Saw this on twitter last week, and it made me both sad, that he felt the need to attempt suicide and glad that it ended at attempts.

    No one should be made to feel that their life is so worthless that they just don’t even need to be here, just for being “different”.

    Wentworth Miller Reveals, ‘I Tried To Kill Myself’ for Being Gay

    Wentworth Miller publicly came out as gay last month, and now he’s discussing his struggle coming to terms with his identity.

    “The first time I tried to kill myself I was 15. I waited until my family went away for the weekend and I was alone in the house and I swallowed a bottle of pills,” Miller said in a speech at the Human Rights Campaign Dinner in Seattle on Saturday, according to a video obtained by TMZ.

    “I don’t remember what happened over the next couple days, but I’m pretty sure come Monday morning I was on a bus back to school pretending everything was fine,” Miller said. “And when someone asked me if that was a cry for help, I say no, because I told no one. You only cry for help if you believe there’s help to cry for and I didn’t. I wanted out. I wanted to go. At 15.”

  23. 23.

    max

    @Hill Dweller: The Russian proposal, which was in reaction to Kerry’s “offhand comment”, but was purportedly discussed when Obama met with Putin, is now our saving grace?

    Sure, why not?

    Does Obama get to keep his Presidency?

    The only way to lose it was to get impeached and not even then.

    max
    [‘August is over, finally. Geez.’]

  26. 26.

    jl

    @JPL: I have no idea whether this was a plan, or Kerry gaffed or what. I haven’t followed it that closely, and wouldn’t know even if I had.

    But the GOpers will say that Obama messed it up if he bombs with Congressional approval, if he bombs without, if a diplomatic solution can be found, or if nothing works out and he just walks away.

    I hope a diplomatic solution is found. After that I hope that whatever happens, the GOPers will have to pretzel themselves into the most ridiculous reaction that alienates the most voters.

  27. 27.

    scav

    Good, if we can continue to wobble on without large bangs, good. I was rather hoping this was about Soonergrunt’s daughter as that is less likely to be reported elsewhere — but good wishes to both ongoing situations, reported or no.

  28. 28.

    joes527

    @MikeJ: i must be missing something. can you point out someone (other than walnuts) who is unhappy with the developments of the last 2 hours?

  31. 31.

    different-church-lady

    If… and that’s a big IF… Obama somehow manages to pull this off, I am mixing up big punch bowls of Shut The Fuck Up on ice, and forcing it down some people’s throats.

    It many not have more than two dimensions, but the dude plays chess while everyone else plays with their genitals.

  32. 32.

    Jeremy

    @Emerald: I’ve been saying it and will say it again the man is just like IKE. The hidden hand presidency.

    I think it’s clear that the President used this threat in order to get a settlement especially after he asked Congress to vote on it which would come after the G20. There were reports in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz about a possible deal before the US media started covering it.

  33. 33.

    dmsilev

    @the Conster:

    LOL. If I was Obama I would tell Jake Tapper “now watch this drive.”

    If I were Obama, I would do my damndest to ignore the existence of Jake Tapper.

  34. 34.

    max

    @Hill Dweller: Sarcasm, my good man.

    Not at all sarcastically, Kerry never lied well (he dissembled great! The Senate for the dissembling win!), and he does seem to be a walking gaffe machine. Whereas Obama has been hunting for some way out the whole time, while slowly bending to McCainiac and neocon pressure. If I am reading that right (and I have plenty of evidence to think so) then I am very glad Obama is President and Kerry is not. (And yes, lamh36, conservatives must be secretly delighted Kerry was one with Bush – or not so secretly delighted as Jen Rubin was at pains to point out. I am entirely not delighted at that, but I didn’t support him (or Howard Dean) in the primaries as nominee anyways.)

    max
    [‘Getting a big weary of this ducks and drakes business.’]

  35. 35.

    Baud

    OT. Newsmax headline:

    Jimmy Carter: I Enjoyed ‘The Butler’

    They are so obsessed with that damn film.

    LOL.

  36. 36.

    joes527

    @different-church-lady: is the stfu for all the folks swearing that we had to bomb or the cw treaty was done? or for the folks saying that preferring a diplomatic solution is the same as wanting children to die horribly?

  37. 37.

    Poopyman

    Whocouldanode that declaring you’re going to bomb the shit out of a country and then letting the leadership of said country stew on that for a couple of weeks would produce a diplomatic result?

    TR would have. Speak softly, and all that.

  38. 38.

    cathyx

    I’m sorry, but my stock portfolio requires we start this war if I’m to be able to retire in the next 15 years.

  40. 40.

    IowaOldLady

    @Poopyman: Hey, haven’t you heard? Carl Rove says it’s “amateur hour” at the White House if you say you intend to bomb and then wait.

  41. 41.

    Redshirt

    Also, if there is a diplomatic solution in Syria, then the Repukes in the House are gonna vote for war. Whatever’s against Obama!

    I need some concern trolls though. Where’s the regular crew?

  45. 45.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Baud:

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.

    Cole has half of it down.

  47. 47.

    Davis X. Machina

    @dmsilev:

    If I were Obama, I would do my damndest to ignore the existence of Jake Tapper.

    This would free up Jake Tapper to cover the beat he’d really prefer to cover — namely Jake Tapper.

  48. 48.

    jl

    @Baud:

    Is enjoying ‘The Butler’ a litmus test for something?

    I saw it, and thought it was OK.

    I hope that makes NewxMax tomorrow.

  51. 51.

    Baud

    @jl:

    Haven’t seen it. But I understand it has two things conservatives obsess over — Reagan and black people

  55. 55.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Redshirt: Have you ever spent a lot of time around people who are half as smart as you? Do you get irritated in that situation? Imagine spending thousands of years watching people do dumb shit.

  57. 57.

    Lady Bug

    @jl:

    I didn’t read the article cause I don’t read NewsMax, but there was all this mumbo jumbo about how “inaccurate” the Butler portrayed Ronald Reagan. I think the article about Carter liking said movie, is suppose to imply that Carter liked the “inaccurate” way Reagan was portrayed in the movie.

  59. 59.

    Elmo

    Open thread! Perfect opportunity for whining. I found a sure fire cure for hiccups Saturday might, but I really don’t recommend it. It involves sitting on a wasp. FUCK THAT HURT.

    And now my leg itches like Hades itself has taken out a contract on me.

  61. 61.

    trollhattan

    @Mary G:

    Twas a heartfelt and probably really well thought out letter to the editor in today’s dead tree paper delineating the many, many ways the Obama administration is far, far more corrupt and criminal than the administration of that Nixon fellow.

    Upon reading that I had to reconfigure my entire Weltanschauung. That fucking hurt a lot, I’m still sore.

  62. 62.

    ruemara

    I was reading some of the possible deal and it amazes me how it manages to look good all around. Russia gets to play peacemaker while paying no heavy price for it and China’s obstruction of the UN on enforcing the CW Ban or even doing a simple censure of Syria. Syria can hand things over in the dark, while not admitting fault. The EU gets to avoid the prickly question of who the heck sold those weapons. The mighty US MIC dong can be appeased just being waved about a bit. The UN gets to look less feckless and ridiculous that it has failed to act at all on the Syrian situation. Jordan is not helped particularly with the refugee problem, but it knows it won’t get bigger, faster and there’s a chance it can end quicker. I feel like I’ve been reading some scifi space opera novel where there’s one godawful spider in a web guy and towards the end, you sit back and see where all the threads lead and who they trap. If it works, I’m gonna toss back some rum in PBO and Kerry’s honour, because-DAMN, that’s some fucking hardcore playing. And stop playing chicken with bombs, please.

  63. 63.

    Jeremy

    @Baud: You should see it. It was a good movie and very emotional. I thought they did a good job depicting the Presidents, the suffering of blacks during that time and craziness of the 60’s and 70’s.

  66. 66.

    fuzz

    It hasn’t exactly been a point of national pride like Pakistan’s nukes, but the fact that Syria had a huge CW stockpile has always given the Syrians a little bit of more influence regionally. The fact that Assad might be willing to give them up, to me, really shows that Bashar is confident he can win without them. I also think it shows he was a little more worried about being hit with air strikes than he let on. The chemical weapons are a big deal to the Syrian military, it’s surprising he’d be willing to part with them like this unless he thought the consequences of keeping them were pretty terrible.

  67. 67.

    Villago Delenda Est

    I’m not generally a fan of Winston Churchill, but I agree with his maxim that “Jaw-jaw is always better than war-war”.

    One of Churchill’s maxims that causes war criminals like the deserting coward and the Dark Lord to choke on their puree of aborted brown baby soup.

  69. 69.

    Liquid

    Before this new development my cynicism was telling me “Well, we need to create new threats for DHS so they can justify their existence.” I didn’t really believe it but after so much of this it’s hard not to be cynical.

    Like the Feds just manufacturing an ‘attack’ by someone who couldn’t wire a lamp much less the new-term-for-bomb.

    I was considering a career in Marketing but it turns out I’m not bitter enough…

    Oh and stop saying nine one one! It’s not like it happened on the first of September! Do you dial nine eleven for an ambulance?!

  72. 72.

    Hunter Gathers

    Putin needs some better p.r. as we inch closer to the Winter Olympics. Playing the role of mediator in all this softens his edges just a little bit. He needs some better press going into the opening ceremony and it will give the worldwide press something to talk about other than the anti-gay laws, which would be the ‘narrative’ that’ll run throughout the coverage of the Games. This way, everybody gets what they want. Obama gets to back himself out the corner painted by the ‘red lines’ comments a few months back, Putin gets good P.R. and keeps Assad in charge, which Putin wants in order to protect his natural gas interest, democracy and negotiation will win the day, and the right wingers get to bitch, because that’s what they always do.

  74. 74.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    @Jeremy: Any movie that has Newsmaxx so butt-hurt that they write stories about the movie losing audience from the first week to the next(Yet still remains No.1 at the box office) and so called conservative”historians” say the treatment of Reagan was inaccurate, is a movie I would recommend.

  75. 75.

    Anne Laurie

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.

    I always prefered “Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and would taste good with ketchup.”

  76. 76.

    lamh36

    @lrozen 10h
    In hindsight, suggests Kerry’s remarks were not off the cuff or misstatement, though spox tried to walk back @chucktodd

    @aspirational12 8 Sep
    Right now, MSM is feverishly conducting push polls with questionable samples to be released right before PBO’s Tuesday speech.

  78. 78.

    different-church-lady

    @joes527: It’s for everyone! Everyone gets to drink the Shut The Fuck Up on ice, and then everyone gets to sit around and smile about the fact that we’re not bombing while the Shut The Fuck Up runs through their veins.

    Because I don’t know anyone… ANYONE… who can say they accurately saw this development coming.

    ‘Course, it ain’t all played out yet, which is why I ain’t pulled the punch bowl out of the basement.

  80. 80.

    Anne Laurie

    @Redshirt:

    I get that Wizards are subtle, but why quick to anger?

    A thousand years of dick-measuring contests. I’d tell you to google “A Wizard’s Staff Has A Knob on the End”, but not from your work computer….

  81. 81.

    PsiFighter37

    Pretty sure this was an example of some serious 11D chess going on. Come on – Obama’s a smart guy. I’m pretty sure he sent the AUMF to Congress because he damn well knew that there’d be a bunch of GOP assholes shitting on each other about whether to follow their militaristic instincts or oppose the Kenyan socialist. It gives him enough time to pull this off. Now, whether or not Kerry was supposed to drop that comment in public, who knows. But I have to believe they knew what they were doing, and now we’re going to get out of this in a better position – Assad has to give up his chemical weapons – and we stay clear of the sectarian conflict in Syria.

    In chess, this is what’s known as a tactical combination, and now he’s cleaning up the aftermath. Gangster.

  84. 84.

    lamh36

    I refuse to watch political shows, it keeps me sane. But I know some of ya’ll do, so please somebody tell me that Maddow was NOT really giving Sen Joe Manchin “credit” for the possible “diplomatic” solution to Syria.

    Somebody please tell me what exactly did Manchin say?

    Also, can I just say that with all the agreement over doing what the polls say the American people want, how soon can we expect to see Immigration reform, gun control, and climate change bills passed? Aren’t all “supported” by polls???

  87. 87.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    @Villago Delenda Est: I always said anyone with a pulse would be a better president than Shrubous Boobious Maximus(W to all of you) back in those dark days of his mis-rule. To those wingnuts who still write that shit on my facebook, no I don’t miss him.

  88. 88.

    srv

    Well, it’s a positive development that Obama wants to give them more than the “one week” deadline John McCain’s SoS wanted to.

    Notice that Hillary’s statement came after Kerry’s and before Obamas.

  90. 90.

    Lady Bug

    @lamh36:

    I didn’t watch the TRMS or any political show for pretty much the same reason, but he and another Senator were purposing an alternative bill that would demand that Syria sign the CW ban and give up their CW in 45 days, or face U.S. military bombardment.

  92. 92.

    Jeremy

    @Mr Stagger Lee: LOL ! I really don’t understand why they are so upset about his portrayal when Reagan used the Southern Strategy for electoral advantage. He said controversial things about MLK in the 60’s and was forced to support the creation of MLK day, and he was forced by Congress including a lot of republicans to stop supporting the apartheid regime’s actions in South Africa.

  94. 94.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @different-church-lady:

    Because I don’t know anyone… ANYONE… who can say they accurately saw this development coming.

    I know I didn’t see this coming. But I am happy it is moving along. I wanted something to be done to respond to the use of chemical weapons, but I didn’t think bombing would accomplish anything useful. If this comes to pass, I will be quite pleased and satisfied.

  95. 95.

    jl

    @Mr Stagger Lee:

    Ha, I read the NewsMax article, it was just an excuse to whine that Reagan was portrayed as a racist in the movie. So sad.

    (Edit: I didn’t think Reagan was portrayed as a racist in the film, even if in real history he did cynically use race as wedge politics, but our current reactionaries project onto everything, I guess, including ol’ Saint Ronnie)

    But after reading the article describing the historical model, Eugene Allen, the movie might have been more interesting if it had been able to go to him for source material.

    A Butler Well-Served by this Election
    WaPo, Nov 7 2008
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110603948_pf.html

  96. 96.

    lamh36

    @Lady Bug: ah. so is Maddow saying that Manchin put this bug in POTUS ear?

    Well maybe, did this happen before he had the meeting w/Putin at G20? He said he discussed it with Putin then right?

    Well, I guess anything is better than giving Obama or Kerry any credit at all, especially since it’s been non-stop bumbling, idiotic Kerry/Obama all last week.

    ETA: funny enough though, Manchin doesn’t want to be associated with Obama in much of anyway, being Senator from WV, so I’m guessing he’d prefer NOT to be mentioned as “Obama’s saviour” w/his WV constituents.

  97. 97.

    Poopyman

    @different-church-lady:

    ‘Course, it ain’t all played out yet, which is why I ain’t pulled the punch bowl out of the basement.

    Yeah, we still have to see Syria actually agree to this, and then actually give up their control. Won’t happen overnight.

  98. 98.

    Jeremy

    @lamh36: Well like many things this President rarely gets credit. If it wasn’t for Obama’s threat to strike Syria nothing would have happened. Don’t these idiots understand that Russia and Syria are reacting to a potential strike and that the President was the one talking to Putin about a potential settlement ? This has nothing to do with some no name hick Senator who has no influence in the world.

  99. 99.

    David in NY

    “I’m not generally a fan of Winston Churchill, ,,,”

    That’s heresy, if not blasphemy, to one of my, or the immediately preceding, generation. Whatever else, he kept Britain from making a separate peace, and had he not, where, exactly, would we have launched D-Day from?

  103. 103.

    jl

    Did see this interesting story at NewsMax. Your day in incongruity:

    World’s Happiest People Live in Scandinavia: UN Study
    NewsMax
    Monday, 09 Sep 2013 01:31 PM

    “The happiest people in the world live in Scandinavia and the Netherlands, a new UN-backed study suggests.

    According to the 2013 World Happiness Report released September 9 by Columbia University’s Earth Institute, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Sweden are the world’s happiest countries, according to the survey of 156 countries.”

    Then the highlighted link bait for a scaremongeing ad: ‘Obamacare: Massive New Rules Revealed for 2013’

    http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/Health-News/happy-scandinavia-netherlands-rankings/2013/09/09/id/524603

  107. 107.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @jl:

    “The happiest people in the world live in Scandinavia and the Netherlands, a new UN-backed study suggests.

    That’s unpossible. It’s a UN study… LIES!!!! Benghazi!

    /wingnut

  109. 109.

    different-church-lady

    @Poopyman:

    Won’t happen overnight.

    Which was a very big, but tacit part of my semi-incoherent point. This situation came up and nearly everyone just started spouting off about what it meant and what the president was going to do and why he wanted to do it and how it was all going to turn out.

    In the meantime Obama actually had an actual chess match to play. And chess is a long game.

    BTW, I should mention I’m +1, but it was a very potent 1.

  111. 111.

    ruemara

    @Poopyman: I have no idea what your comment is supposed to mean as a response to mine. Luckily, I’d have to go to the store to purchase a fuck to give.

  112. 112.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @different-church-lady: As long as the process is set up and ongoing, there will be no bombing. As long as the process is set up and ongoing, the chances of chemical weapons being used are decreased. This is good.

  115. 115.

    jl

    I’ll try to figure out whether Obama is a genius beyond human ken or a pathetic bungler on Syira after I figure out whether John Adams was a genius beyond human ken or a pathetic bungler during the Quais-War, and I don’t know how many presidents afterwards.

  117. 117.

    lamh36

    oh please…how soon after the Obama presidency is over before we began to hear one of the Obama girls as political pundits like this chick and that girl McCain chick. Shit, the Obama girls can’t say anything as stupid as this!

    @HuntsmanAbby: Leave it to Russia to lead with a diplomatic resolution on #Syria. If only the US had thought of that first?!

  119. 119.

    magurakurin

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    Me, too. I was hoping that Assad would offer up some rogue general as a sacrificial lamb, but this is better. Also, too I hope folks are noticing the difference here between Iraq; when Saddam offered to give up everything he had at the end, the Bushies said, “oh hell no” and attacked. This is a different play with different actors.

    And Obama again proves to me he is way smarter than me. They are engaging in what used to be called brinkmanship and they seem to be doing well. Let’s hope all parties involved can get this done, because bombing Syria still seems like a bad option even if it now looks to have been an effective threat.

  122. 122.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Morbo: No, taking chemical weapons out of the equation is a good thing. There still is an ugly civil war going on, but it is less ugly without chemical weapons.

  123. 123.

    MikeJ

    @different-church-lady:

    In the meantime Obama actually had an actual chess match to play. And chess is a long game.

    I covered a chess game (the Kasparov-Karpov match in NY). Sat in the press room and played games against GMs who I would have never met in a tourney because they were 800 points better than me. I got trounced over and over, but what fun it was! And much cheaper than losing over and over in Washington Square.

    BTW, I should mention I’m +1, but it was a very potent 1.

    I’m 6 up on you. I’m approaching Psifighter territory.

  126. 126.

    magurakurin

    @Morbo:

    for fuck’s sake, man, this development is an unqualified good thing. And every time someone fails to see that, a unicorn cries.

  128. 128.

    PsiFighter37

    @lamh36: Abby Huntsman was in my class at Penn. Based on that kind of analysis, would have to guess she got in more for legacy reasons than because of her smarts.

    I don’t understand these progeny of Republican politicians who feel the need to stay affiliated with a party they know is out of sync with even most of their views.

  129. 129.

    Poopyman

    @magurakurin: Oddly, and ironically, it was Dubya that set this scenario up to succeed. He set the standard for Crazy/Stupid American President, and the rest of the world now has to wonder just what shit the US is really going to pull.

  130. 130.

    Tehanu

    @jl:
    Ronnie Rayguns should be looking up from, well, let’s be kind and say his hundred-thousand year penance in Purgatory, and thanking God that Alan Rickman, a far greater actor than he could ever have even dreamed of being, played him in the movie. And all his fanboys and -gals (Nooners, particularly) should be doing the same and shutting the f. up about anything else.

  131. 131.

    Jeremy

    @lamh36: It’s like they can’t think. What lead to Russia coming up with this idea ? The threat of a strike.

    It’s not rocket science. Russia would be doing nothing right now if it wasn’t for the threat and the talks at the G20. But we can’t give that negro in the white house credit for anything because minorities are inferior.

  136. 136.

    Baud

    @Poopyman:

    I don’t agree. But for Bush, we probably would have been able to put together a more widespread and resolute international alliance to deal with this situation more effectively.

  137. 137.

    Suffern ACE

    @Poopyman: or who could have thought that, per the previous thread, that leaking out that you were preparing to attack Saudi Arabia in response to said attack would result in getting the Superpower to back off.

  138. 138.

    joes527

    @different-church-lady: I didn’t see it coming. Though if folks around here are right it was probably because I was watching Kerry overplaying bad-cop, and not noticing Obama doing good-cop.

    In any case, there seems to be a path forward that doesn’t require us to lob a few missiles into the middle of a civil war, so I’m going to assume that Obama and Putin read what I have written here, and heeded my advice.

    I know, I know… STFU.

  139. 139.

    AxelFoley

    @different-church-lady:

    If… and that’s a big IF… Obama somehow manages to pull this off, I am mixing up big punch bowls of Shut The Fuck Up on ice, and forcing it down some people’s throats.

    It many not have more than two dimensions, but the dude plays chess while everyone else plays with their genitals.

    No doubt, you ARE a different kind of church lady. LOL

  142. 142.

    Betty Cracker

    @lamh36: I saw Maddow’s show, and I don’t think she was crediting Manchin. He floated a proposal to give Syria 45 days, and she mentioned that, i think in the context that the idea of giving Syria that option had been out there in public prior to Kerry’s remarks.

    But she seemed to take the “Kerry made a gaff and Russia jumped on it” angle. I think she even allowed for the possibility that it was eleventy dimensional chess, if memory serves.

  145. 145.

    magurakurin

    I think the STFU should be for all the drive-by shooters who were coming by with great regularity and spewing “war monger, baby killer, dick wagger” vindictives all over many of the regular commenters who were either opposed to the bombing or for it but highly conflicted and wishing to debate and examine both sides. The STFU should be for all those people who didn’t/don’t have the courtesy to read through a a thread or two before hurling half-baked attacks.

  146. 146.

    lamh36

    @Betty Cracker: that last part is the bit I really can’t stand about Maddow.

    She likes to be billed as being “above the betlway” narrative, and yet time after time, she falls into that narrative herself.

    Admittedly, she will come and say “ok, I was wrong”, but even then its from a “well I might have been wrong”, but still…

    it grates on me. When she’s truly outside of the beltway, like she was in North Carolina last week, she is great…but I guess everyone who lives in the MSM bubble falls prey to it often enough

  147. 147.

    askew

    @Emerald:

    @Cygil: As Hillary said today, they have to believe you’ll actually do it.

    I said over on the GOS, I was pretty sure he never intended actually to lob the missiles into Syria when he decided to go through Congress–which he did not have to do. He also said that he’s got a pretty good polling operation and knew full well what the public would think.

    You attempt to defend Obama at GOS? That’s a waste of time. That place is full of ODS sufferers and libetarians now.

  149. 149.

    jl

    @AxelFoley:

    If the diplomacy works, it will be interesting watching the white bigots who dominate the news and political gossip explain it away. It certainly can’t be that Obama is… adequate… now can it?

    Maybe Matthews will wake up on the right side of the bed one day and have an on-air tantrum as a small counterbalance.

  150. 150.

    lamh36

    ‏@davidaxelrod 1m
    If POTUS hadn’t threatened credible military response, does anyone believe Russia and Syria would be coming forward now? No time to falter.

    Well, I’ll be damned:

    @TheLastWord 26m
    [email protected]: Russia’s plan is a real proposal and this would not have happened if Obama hadn’t threatened to use military force.

  152. 152.

    Jeremy

    @Betty Cracker: The thing is I watched what Kerry said and it clearly didn’t come off like a gaffe. The Administration has consistently said that their main issue is the use of chemical weapons and upholding the ban. The only reason why we are talking about this is because of the red line.

    And it contradicts what the President said today about these talks being in the works.

  153. 153.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @jl: That was something that was pissing me off on the earlier thread today – the idea that a good result was something that Obama/Kerry stumbled into as opposed to something they worked competently to get.

  154. 154.

    lojasmo

    @Baud:

    No doubt. I voted for him. I remember the day after was so fucking bleak.

    Still battled against him in the primaries.

  156. 156.

    ? Martin

    @jl:

    It certainly can’t be that Obama is… adequate… now can it?

    They’ll just keep fellating topless Putin, as they have since he went after the gheys. He’s the new conservative hero. Will go up on Mt. Rushes along with Reagan and Zimmerman.

  157. 157.

    jl

    @Jeremy: I can believe that there have been behind the scenes negotiations between US and Russia, and several others, about how to get out of the Syria mess.

    And if so, and if things have been developing, I can believe Obama decided to go for a maybe-not-conclusive stamp of approval from Congress to eff with the GOP.

    And if there were behind the scenes talks, going to Congress was a clever feint to play for time. I mean, put Congress on the spot to make an important and probably unpopular decision, that will get the C-critters pissing themselves so much they won’t meddle and mess things up.

    But all the all-so-knowing talk is speculation at this point.

  158. 158.

    Lady Bug

    @Jeremy:

    What did POTUS say about talks being in the work?

    I’m not going to meep meep or anything until a deal is done, but I’m praying/sending good vibes/etc, etc.

  160. 160.

    Jeremy

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s been the story of this presidency. Even some on the left act like Obama won election and re-election because of luck, everything is luck or miracles but not skill. It’s really condescending and it appears racist.

  161. 161.

    PsiFighter37

    @Baud: True that. We would have owned the Supreme Court for a generation if we had gotten to pick both Rehnquist’s and O’Connor’s replacement.

    What’s done is done, but we’re going to probably have gone a good 70 years (or potentially longer) without having one of our guys (I’m counting Earl Warren as one of us in this analysis) running the show at SCOTUS.

  162. 162.

    lojasmo

    @Lady Bug:

    Meep meep, mothafuckers.

    Where are all the troals. Haven’t seen spats since before Zimmerman.

    ETA: Lojasmo +2-3 (I drink big glasses of wine)

  163. 163.

    Suffern ACE

    @jl: which might be true. It is possible that tge negations are going to result in something that will be unpopular with Congress and they needed to be reminded that they were opposed to the alternative.

  166. 166.

    jl

    @Suffern ACE: And having the racist GOPer pols just make incoherent fools of themselves will be helpful, if diplomacy broke out. And the news and ‘analysis’ writers would occupy themselves with scenarios and speculation about presidential tests and trials..

  169. 169.

    Liquid

    LOD is just haranguing Tony Dick. You should see this, it’s certainly cringe-worthy.

    ETA — Dicky said harangue at least twice, that was a fucking awesome well not interview but yeah.

  170. 170.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @magurakurin: I was in Ohio. I stood in drizzle for a couple of hours to vote that night. The next day I went to work and listened to some fat-assed blowhard laugh about the same-sex marriage ban. Of course he had a right to his own opinion, but two of our coworkers, people he had worked with for years were in long term same sex relationships and had just been told they were less than. Assholes.

  172. 172.

    Morbo

    @Omnes Omnibus: Their use may be out of the equation, scare quotes added at one’s discretion, but the chemicals aren’t just going to disappear. Just getting the UN inspectors into East Ghouta was a monumental undertaking. How much, and how long will it take to ensure the dismantlement of the entire program and chemicals? During a civil war? Take a look at how long dismantlement took at army bases within the United States. Anniston: 2006-2011; Deseret: 1996-2012; Edgewood: 2003-2006; Johnston Atoll: 1990-2000; Newport: 2005-2008, etc… Billions of dollars and a solid 25 years of effort. They have to remain secure throughout from the AQ boogeymen and not be tapped back into by the regime. You’ll forgive me if I’m not looking forward to the body count that builds up in the intervening time.

  173. 173.

    LiberalTarian

    @Emerald:

    Yup. If he’d have gone to the Republicans with this first it would have been all “NOT OVER OUR SOLDIERS DEAD BODIES!! WE ARE GOING TO INVADE!!!!”

    Of course, is he a genius pretending to be a simple man, or is he a simple man who has genius thrust upon him?

    Let’s hope Putin can make it stick. Russia and Syria go way back. Then again, maybe Assad figures if Russia comes for him, his ass is really is grass.

  174. 174.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Morbo: No, they aren’t going to just disappear, but I will take making their use out of the question for now. If they were used once, they would be used again. If this deal goes through, their use is much less likely. I am willing to call that a win.

  175. 175.

    KS in MA

    @Elmo: Sorry to hear about your encounter with the wasp. And– if your leg responded by itching, you might want to go see an allergist. I mean, you should go see one. Anyone who’s allergic to bee/wasp stings (me included) can tell you it’s no joke.

  176. 176.

    askew

    @Jeremy:

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s been the story of this presidency. Even some on the left act like Obama won election and re-election because of luck, everything is luck or miracles but not skill. It’s really condescending and it appears racist.

    Yep, there is a portion of the left that can’t wrap their brains around the fact that Obama is smart and competent and knows more than they do.

  177. 177.

    Mandalay

    @Culture of Truth:

    It was Kerry’s proposal, taken up by Russia.

    Not really. Firstly, the State Department explicitly clarified that Kerry was speaking “rhetorically” and that getting Assad to relinquish his chemical weapons was an “impossibility”.

    Secondly, it was previously reported (on Sept 2) that Russia had already approached the US about disarming Assad…

    The Iranian lawmakers told Assad that Tehran is not fully in the picture of the secret Russian-US dialogue on Syria, but Tehran had reason to believe that the Russians had put out feelers to the Americans on the proposition and were not initially turned down.

    Russian and Iranian intelligence experts on US politics expect Obama’s limited offensive plan for Syria to run into major obstacles in Congress. They hope the opposition will find added support for its counter-arguments in the Iranian-Russian proposition.

    That would also explain why Putin had been goading the Administration about the lack of evidence; he had a counter-proposal up his sleeve all the time.

    I think this thread is declaring victory way too soon. The devil is in the details, and once talks get underway Assad will presumably start being difficult (possibly as detailed in the link above), and stall. Sure the US could still go ahead and intervene anyway, but as time goes by the public’s perception of the necessity for intervention will diminish, especially if Congress says no. Public opposition here is still rising.

  179. 179.

    Belafon

    @Mandalay: *Sigh*
    And I quote different church lady:

    ‘Course, it ain’t all played out yet, which is why I ain’t pulled the punch bowl out of the basement.

  180. 180.

    jl

    @LiberalTarian:

    ” Assad figures if Russia comes for him, his ass is really is grass. ”

    Russia doesn’t give a fig about Assad, they care about a friendly, or at least not overtly hostile regime in Syria that is safe from radical Islam. That is what they really care about in the Syrian civil war. I don’t see how they care whether Assad himself or any of his immediate associates comes along with that unless it is absolutely necessary.

    If Russia can lever international control of the chemical weapons into some kind of stable outcome that they like, they may be putting a lot of pressure on Assad to do a deal.

    Edit: and, noting Mandalay’s comment above, hope that whatever is going on diplomatically, it works out.

  182. 182.

    Mandalay

    @joes527:

    In any case, there seems to be a path forward that doesn’t require us to lob a few missiles into the middle of a civil war

    What exactly is that path though? It’s good that US intervention is on hold, but that is all. What would actually happen to the chemical weapons? Or more precisely, what would the Administration require from Assad in order for us not to intervene?

    Once the UN gets involved, and the talking starts, I would expect Assad (with Russian backing) to start coming up with his own conditions for disarming.

  183. 183.

    LiberalTarian

    @Elmo:

    For the sting, apply a hot spoon (as hot as you can stand it) to the area. It is supposed to denature the proteins. I can say first hand it works on spider bites.

  184. 184.

    Belafon

    @Belafon: Also, have you ever had to deal with those people who have to believe it was their idea or they won’t go for it? I have, and generally, until I can find a new job, it generally involves me making suggestions to lead the person in the right direction. I generally describe that as “working well with different types of people.”

  186. 186.

    LiberalTarian

    @jl:

    They care about power, which they could have more of if non-ball playing Assad is out of the way. I wouldn’t say that Syria has ever truly been a Russian client state, but there was a time when Turkey and Syria nearly went to war due to what Turkey perceived as Russia’s outsize influence.

    If Putin/Russia decides Assad needs killing he/they won’t wait for the UN or the world to agree with them. It’ll just happen.

  187. 187.

    Lady Bug

    @Jeremy:

    I agree, it didn’t sound like a gaffe at all to me. Added to the fact that Kerry was in discussions with his Russian counterpart since after the chemical attacks, Obama & Putin are reported to have talked about it during their 20 minute convo at the G-20 AND that Kerry just happened to make a “gaffe” right when there just *happen* to be high level meetings between Syrian and Russian officials in Moscow…

  188. 188.

    Mandalay

    @jl:

    Russia doesn’t give a fig about Assad, they care about a friendly, or at least not overtly hostile regime in Syria that is safe from radical Islam

    Indirectly….what Russia really cares about is having guaranteed access to a naval port in the Mediterranean, and Assad gives them that.

  190. 190.

    Scamp Dog

    @Morbo: The real Churchill was smarter and more flexible than the one wingnuts remember. Of course, he made some howling blunders, too (Galipoli, for instance).

  191. 191.

    Betty Cracker

    @Jeremy: I saw Kerry’s remarks too, and it didn’t sound like a gaffe per se, but it didn’t sound like a negotiating ploy either. Maybe the admin gamed all this out, in which case Obama and Kerry deserve some major kudos. But it’s not stupid or racist or firebaggy to wonder if this possible out from a tight spot might be more happenstance than master plan. YMMV.

  192. 192.

    jl

    @Omnes Omnibus: Like I said it’s all speculation at this point, but was Eisenhower the first president to admit that coming off like a putz was often useful strategy while things were developing?

    I read someplace that in a meeting he was asked what his strategy would be with the press on something that was in the works, and he said he was going to to out there and confuse the hell out of them.

  193. 193.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Betty Cracker:

    if this possible out from a tight spot might be more happenstance than master plan.

    One could say almost the same things about the Cuban Missile Crisis. I don’t think anyone is going to suggest that Obama and Kerry have been working toward this result fro the get go, but it seems to be something that has been being batted around for a while.

  194. 194.

    jl

    @Mandalay: Yes. The access is what I meant by “friendly”. It’s a fairly straightforward requirement that makes any leader replaceable.

    Edit: but not replaceable by any of the rebel leaders, so I think Russia is trying to find a way forward with the current regime, but I don’t see how Assad is necessary himself. Seems to me getting international involvement would make things more stable, and Russia would like as a solution that if they could have enough control over the terms.

  197. 197.

    Mandalay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    As long as people are talking, Assad won’t be using the weapons and we won’t be bombing. How is this bad?

    That in itself is not bad at all – it’s good. It’s just that the general mood of the thread seems to be that Obama has won, and everything is OK now, but this is just the beginning of another chapter in the saga.

    I can’t imagine that Assad won’t demand something(s) in return for relinquishing his chemical weapons, and once we enter that zone intervention will become even trickier than it is now. Public support will wane, the UN will deliberate, politicians will whine, and the fighting will continue.

    Cameron and Obama appeared to be very keen to intervene in Syria because they were – I expect they understood that they only had a very limited timeframe to act.

  198. 198.

    jl

    @Mandalay: I think fighting and lots of killing are going to continue in Syria in any event. The question is how to keep the international consequences under control. That sounds callous, but I think it is the case, and how people like Obama and Putin are thinking, when they put their ‘practical men of affairs’ hats on.

  199. 199.

    joes527

    @Mandalay: it is much simpler than that for Assad. “you want the CWS? here you go… take them all. … inspect till you are blue in the face….” … and he’ll still have some squirled away somewhere.

    but he won’t be able to use them. that would give away the game. not perfect. not by a long shot. but better than where we are today.

  200. 200.

    lojasmo

    @Mandalay:

    This is all laid out in international law. Read up, you’ll spend a lot less time here asking pointless fucking questions, the answers to which are easily found on the internet.

    It will be good for you.

  201. 201.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mandalay: I think you are misreading the thread a bit. Just abut everyone has offered a caveat of “if the deal goes through,” not in every comment – that would be tiresome – but it’s there. As far as the fighting continuing goes, I don’t think the goal was ever to stop or settle the Syrian civil war. It has been about the chemical weapons, so, if the deal goes through, it is a win. You seem to be working under the assumption that the goal to be accomplished was military strikes. I see the goal as trying to deal with chemical weapons. If the chemical weapons thing gets dragged out, it is fine. Like I said before, they won’t be used while negotiations are ongoing. If they are used, approval for action will come quickly.

  202. 202.

    Mandalay

    @jl:

    …so I think Russia is trying to find a way forward with the current regime, but I don’t see how Assad is necessary himself.

    Yes, the ideal solution from Russia’s perspective would be for Assad to spend more time with his family in Tehran, while his regime retains power, continues to buy arms from Putin, and continues to provide Tartus as a base to the Russian navy.

    OTOH, if Assad disappears I think the smart money would be on his regime collapsing. Then what?

  203. 203.

    Mandalay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You seem to be working under the assumption that the goal to be accomplished was military strikes.

    Even worse than that – I was (and still am) working under the assumption that the primary motivation was that Obama’s “red line” comments forced him to do something.

    Until Britain’s parliament told Cameron to go **** himself all the signs were that military intervention was imminent. The Administration certainly never proposed talking to Syria about disarming its CW.

    Regardless, the situation is certainly better than 24 hours ago.

  204. 204.

    lojasmo

    Remember the night that Obama took down trump while Seal Team Six took out Osama. This feels like that.

    I have always posited that bombs would not be lobbed. I’ll be happy when it turns out i was right.

  205. 205.

    ira-NY

    I almost feel sorry for Calamity Jane’s Firebaggers. They were just working up a good head of stupid.

  206. 206.

    jl

    @Mandalay:

    ” OTOH, if Assad disappears I think the smart money would be on his regime collapsing. Then what? ”

    I agree there. That is the problem.

    Edit: But, embalming the current mess in a solution of international monitoring and negotiations could be a good way forward for Russia (even if a lot if it is BS and killing continues but maybe only at a slower pace), since the regime may collapse anyway.

  207. 207.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You seem to be working under the assumption that the goal to be accomplished was military strikes. I see the goal as trying to deal with chemical weapons.

    It does seem as though the people who were convinced that the US’s protests about the use of chemical weapons were a mere excuse to get to the military strikes the US really wanted to do are the ones who are most puzzled by recent developments.

    If you start with the assumption that Obama and Kerry were telling the truth and the US really was upset by the chemical weapons use, the events of the past couple of days make a whole lot more sense since they allow us to get the chemical weapons out of Assad’s reach without requiring military strikes. The fact that the military strikes may not happen is what seems to be confusing people — But I thought Obama wanted military strikes? Why is he saying something different now?  When, of course he isn’t saying anything different at all — it’s just that he was never saying what they assumed he really meant in the first place.

  208. 208.

    Mandalay

    @lojasmo:

    This is all laid out in international law. Read up, you’ll spend a lot less time here asking pointless fucking questions

    Then provide a link to back up your assertion. I say you are full of shit.

  209. 209.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mandalay:

    Even worse than that – I was (and still am) working under the assumption that the primary motivation was that Obama’s “red line” comments forced him to do something.

    What is happening now is something. It appears that multilateral negotiations have been going on since the chemical attacks. Those are something. Something doesn’t have to be a military attack. I am very pleased about these developments since I think the use of chemical weapons is a violation of international norms that warrants a response and I did not think that there was an effective and proportional military response available. If this comes off, it is fantastic.

  210. 210.

    LiberalTarian

    @Mandalay:

    OTOH, if Assad disappears I think the smart money would be on his regime collapsing. Then what?

    Seems likely that between Russia and Iran there will always be another Assad-type character ready and able to play strong man. Assad is a touch clumsy, after all, what with all the refugees and everything. Although certainly his belligerence is netting a tidy profit for arms dealers. And turning Russia into the peacemaker paints a nice, if reptilian, portrait of Putin.

    GW Assad? After all, he inherited his office from his father, right?

  211. 211.

    jl

    @Mandalay:

    “The Administration certainly never proposed talking to Syria about disarming its CW”

    I don’t think of myself as an Obot, but I think he’s smart enough to know that proposing anything but blowing up stuff would cause too much ruckus among the GOP and our centrist warmongers to go smoothly.

    I have no idea how much of the diplomatic initiative was planned in detail or outline. But I think Obama knows he has to be careful about just cold proposing something sensible like that in public, in plain language.

  212. 212.

    Mandalay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    What is happening now is something.

    It certainly is, but to be fair, Obama is only reacting to a proposal from Putin.

    If this comes off, it is fantastic.

    I agree completely. Disarming Assad of chemical weapons “peacefully” will be a massive win for the world.

  213. 213.

    Morbo

    @Mandalay: Almost certainly true that the regime is done without Assad. I would imagine there would be massive army defections and power transfer to the FSA with the intent of reducing the amount of influence the jihadists could bring to bear. Just based on the maps that’s likely to work in the south and on the coasts, but the north would probably be pretty radicalized.

  214. 214.

    LiberalTarian

    @lojasmo:

    This is all laid out in international law. Read up, you’ll spend a lot less time here asking pointless fucking questions, the answers to which are easily found on the internet.

    Yeah. Cuz international law, you know, forbids things like preemptive invasions and theft of poorer countries’ resources and all that stuff. And it really really works.

    Can I have a pony now?

  215. 215.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mandalay:

    It certainly is, but to be fair, Obama is only reacting to a proposal from Putin.

    The reports that have been coming out indicate that there have been discussions about something similar to this going on for a while now. More importantly, who the fuck cares if Putin first proposed it? If it was a good and workable idea, kudos to everyone involved for running with it.

    As a lawyer, if opposing counsel puts a settlement proposal on the table that leaves his client and my client in a better position, would I not be an idiot for spurning it because it came from him?

  216. 216.

    Mandalay

    @LiberalTarian:

    Seems likely that between Russia and Iran there will always be another Assad-type character ready and able to play strong man.

    Not so sure about that. What are the precedents for a regime retaining control once a dictator flees?

    GW Assad?

    The kind of guy you wanna have a beer with?

  222. 222.

    Ruckus

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Your last graph reminds me of what a lawyer once told me.
    Any settlement with one side happy and one side unhappy is a bad settlement. Any settlement with both sides happy didn’t need lawyers to negotiate in the first place. Any settlement with both sides equally unhappy needed lawyers and was fair.

  223. 223.

    Mandalay

    @lojasmo: From your own link, Syria is shown as a state that has “neither signed nor acceded to the Chemical Weapons Convention”.

    So explain in your own words why Syria is obliged to be constrained by a convention that it has rejected. Be sure to explain how your argument binds Syria in international law, and cite the case precedents.

    You know nothing about the situation. You are an idiot.

  224. 224.

    Keith P

    At last a third way! Way #1 – Obama doesn’t attach Syria, so GOP complains that Obama doesn’t attach, Way #2 – Obama supposedly will attach Syria, so GOP complains that Obama will attack & threatens impeachment, and Way #3 – Obama finds diplomatic way out with peaceful resolution, GOP praises Russian despot.

  226. 226.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mandalay: Syria signed the 1925 Geneva Protocol that prohibits the use of chemical weapons. The 1993 CWC is mostly about the destruction of existing weapons. So, Syria committed to not using them, but did not commit to destroying them.

  231. 231.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Morbo: Well, I am of the opinion that the prohibition on chemical weapon use has passed beyond the requirement of treaties and has become a norm. Just like the prohibitions against torture. So, to me, the commitments don’t matter all that much.

  237. 237.

    Mandalay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The 1925 Protocol does not specify.

    IANAL, and wikipedia is probably not necessarily the best source for rock solid legal information, but….

    The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol, is a treaty prohibiting the first use of chemical and biological weapons in international armed conflicts….

    Both Syrian government and oppositional forces are accused of using chemical weapons in 2013 during the Syrian civil war, though as any such use would be within Syria’s own borders, rather than in warfare between state parties to the protocol, the legal situation is less certain

    I noticed that the Administration was repeatedly claiming that Syria had broken “international law” by using chemical weapons, and then they abruptly stopped. I am guessing that the WH lawyers read the fine print and told them to STFU with that argument.

  238. 238.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mandalay: As on most things legal, opinions differ.

    Note this from your link: In recent times the protocol has been interpreted to cover internal conflicts as well international ones. In 1995 an appellate chamber in the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia stated that “there had undisputedly emerged a general consensus in the international community on the principle that the use of chemical weapons is also prohibited in internal armed conflicts.” In 2005 the International Committee of the Red Cross concluded that customary international law includes a ban on the use of chemical weapons in internal as well as international conflicts

  239. 239.

    Mandalay

    @Debbie(aussie): Ugh! I remember when Julia Gillard eviscerated him for misogyny…that was awesome. I’m sorry she’s gone; she really seemed like a decent human being, but I guess that is a liability if you are a politician.

  240. 240.

    Mandalay

    @Omnes Omnibus: Right. And I guess that the ICT’s “general consensus” argument bolsters the Administration’s “violation of international norms” line.

    But I still see nothing to show that Syria has blatantly violated any international law. I am obviously not condoning what Assad (allegedly) did, but it is not very satisfying that there does not seem to be any firm legal basis for nailing him to the wall.

    Maybe the situation will be a catalyst for better law.

  241. 241.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mandalay: International norms = international law. Just like treaties = international law. Think of it this way, norms are the equivalent of international common law. Treaties are the equivalent of international statutory law. The end result is that a violation of international norms is a violation of international law.

  242. 242.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Mandalay:

    The Administration certainly never proposed talking to Syria about disarming its CW

    Meet with our enemies? With no preconditions? :P

  245. 245.

    Mandalay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    International norms = international law

    Yes, we keep going down this path, but it entails cherry picking the norms violations that offend us, rather than dogmatically citing some specific law/convention/treaty violation. Syria could easily find a norm or two that we (or Israel) violate, and I won’t be in the least surprised if that is exactly what Assad (or Russia or Iran) does once the negotiating begins. It will muddy the waters nicely for them. It will be a real hoot if Assad goes after us for torture. Nuclear weapons should do the trick for kicking Israel.

  246. 246.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mandalay: Sure, violations of international law are one thing. Being able to do more than fuck all about it is another. Waterboarding and the fucking invasion of Iraq in 2003 were violations of international law. It doesn’t mean that the world should let Assad get away with things. Also, the fact that waterboarding and the 2003 Iraq invasion were violations of international law are reasons that people like Cheney and Yoo are very careful about where their flights go if they ever venture overseas.

  247. 247.

    ranger3

    What a fucking ripoff. I thought we were gonna get to see some war on the Tee Vee. This president sucks.

  248. 248.

    Emerald

    @askew: Usually. But there was a The President is Smarter than Me diary that hit the top of the wreck list.

    This is the second one defending POTUS that has hit the top of the list, which says to me that plenty of us Bots are still there–we just know when and when not to comment.

    My comment has 48 recs so far.

  249. 249.

    A Humble Lurker

    @Mandalay:

    It certainly is, but to be fair, Obama is only reacting to a proposal from Putin Kerry.

    FTFY…? Or did I not? Wasn’t that something being argued about earlier?

  251. 251.

    Marc

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    If you start with the assumption that Obama and Kerry were telling the truth and the US really was upset by the chemical weapons use, the events of the past couple of days make a whole lot more sense

    Obama confounds people across the political spectrum with his nasty habit of saying exactly what he means and doing what he says.

  252. 252.

    IowaOldLady

    I’m slow but finally I see it. Obama was building up to announcing we were bombing and then, to everyone’s shock, he says he’ll send it to Congress. Thus buying time. With the bonus of keeping Congress busy and less likely to make trouble.

  254. 254.

    different-church-lady

    @Mandalay:

    …but to be fair, Obama is only reacting to a proposal from Putin.

    To be fair, isn’t reacting to things like that his whole fucking job?

  255. 255.

    cleek

    @joes527:
    the BBC morning show just had some shrieking idiot American on, complaining that Obama and the US is the worst ever and the fact that we had to be “rescued” from our own folly by Putin proves it.

  256. 256.

    Emma

    @different-church-lady: Not to mention that IT HAS BEEN REPEATEDLY STATED that conversations have been going on through back channels while the usual suspects posture in front of the camera.

    Again, as mentioned before, there are people who will not WILL NOT give Obama any credit for anything. I used to think it was disguised racism. I now believe it’s just the old liberal “everyone on my side is impure and imperfect and I can’t accept anything but the White Wizards”.

  259. 259.

    chopper

    @Ruckus:

    i know. i’ve been out of ‘giving fucks’ for years. the stores out here have shits for giving, but i’m a fuck-giving man.

  260. 260.

    chopper

    @Emma:

    i figured liberals on the internet would trip over themselves to come up with some narrative that makes obama the war mongering dimwitted asshole and putin the white knight of peace, i just didn’t think they’d do it with such speed.

    these people were so seriously damaged by the 2000’s that they’ve started having delusions. it’s like that scene in being john malkovich, only everybody is going to look like george bush to them.

  261. 261.

    Emma

    @chopper: It’s been a hell of a trip. Now it seems that I am supposed to turn an ex-KGB pseudo-Tsar into a hero because we can’t ever, ever assume, in spite of the evidence, that the mild-mannered black guy is actually competent at what he does.

  262. 262.

    El Cid

    If this possibility (int’l supervision of Syrian CW’s & maybe even destruction) arose under Bush Jr., there would be no consideration of it whatsoever. There would simply be snotty dismissals from the Administration and a quicker build-up to whatever war they felt they could get out of it.

  263. 263.

    MomSense

    @Emma:

    Plus if we had any decent coverage in this country, more people would know that right after the attacks Putin made statements saying they had proof it was the rebels, then (when presented with some of our intelligence) his public statements were that there is no proof that chemical weapons were used. He has been all over the map on this.

    The bottom line is that Kerry and others have been working on a diplomatic solution this whole time. And this is by no means a done deal. Even if the terms of the deal are finalized, verification is a bitch.

  264. 264.

    El Cid

    By the way, if this goes through, though, the next time a ‘crisis point’ arises from the foreign poicy establishment point of view, there will be no more reticence to attack due to Syria’s possession of CW.

    I think Assad is as positive toward this initiative as he is because he fundamentally doesn’t trust his degree of control over his own military to prevent CW’s from being used in the field. They can’t be left in ordinary fixed storage because there’s too much danger of some sort of anti-regime forces obtaining them.

    And of course if it is the case that Assad himself cannot prevent his own commanders from using CW’s he cannot admit that. This would truly expose him as a weakened leader.

    This McClatchy report following up on reports of German intelligence seems to back the CW attack as perpetrated by Syrian regime forces but against the wishes of Assad. (I get that commanders in the field would have every likelihood to fear their future either from a loss to opposing forces or from their own regime, thus it is really, really dangerous to have those forces carrying about CW’s.)

    BERLIN — Syrian President Bashar Assad has repeatedly rejected requests from his field commanders for approval to use chemical weapons, according to a report this weekend in a German newspaper.

    The report in Bild am Sonntag, which is a widely read and influential national Sunday newspaper, reported that the head of the German Foreign Intelligence agency, Gerhard Schindler, last week told a select group of German lawmakers that intercepted communications had convinced German intelligence officials that Assad did not order or approve what is believed to be a sarin gas attack on Aug. 21 that killed hundreds of people in Damascus’ eastern suburbs.

    The Obama administration has blamed the attack on Assad. The evidence against Assad was described over the weekend as common sense by White House Chief of Staff Denis McDonough on CNN’s “State of the Union.”…

    This is an unfortunate conjunction, maybe, in which Assad’s personal interest in attempting to remain control of his own regime matches Syrian civilian and regional civilian interests — along with international diplomatic interests — against Syrian forces having access to CW.

    It’s not impossible that someone like Assad might not feel in the position of caring more about retaining power (including both keeping it from opposing forces as well as internal rivalries) than any potential international ramifications of using CW’s. (No, he doesn’t give a shit about killing Syrian civilians.)

    But the report above makes more sense, particularly in Assad’s apparent willingness to express interest in an offer to surrender CW’s to international control — it keeps the CW’s out of the hands of both any rebelling forces as well as from his own forces which are too likely to use them. I think his interest in the deal might indicate the lack of control he feels he has of them.

  266. 266.

    Emma

    @MomSense: Yeah, the Devil is always in the details. But so far it seems that Assad might be willing to go for it if, as some of the news reports out of Europe have it, the chemical weapons were used without his knowledge or approval.

    We shall see what we shall see.

  267. 267.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Mandalay: yes, I know. It was supposed to be a callback to one of the dumber episodes from the 2008 campaign, where McCain wanted to make hay out of poor naive Obama’s willingness to negotiate with evil people.

  268. 268.

    Ruckus

    @MomSense:
    I was going to go 2 places with that but I’ll settle for one.

    Are you saying we need to purchase “Give a Fucks” by the pallet load? Not a bad idea. One should always have at least a half dozen “Give a Fucks” on hand.

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