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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Monday Evening Open Thread: Good News

Monday Evening Open Thread: Good News

by Anne Laurie|  September 9, 20138:30 pm| 269 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Proud to Be A Democrat, War, All we want is life beyond the thunderdome

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From the Washington Post:

President Obama on Monday called a Russian proposal for Syria to turn over control of its chemical weapons to international monitors in order to avoid a military strike a “potentially positive development,” that could represent a “significant breakthrough,” but he said he remains skeptical the Syrian government would follow through on its obligations based on its recent track record.

“Between the statements that we saw from the Russians — the statement today from the Syrians — this represents a potentially positive development,” Obama said in an interview with NBC News, according to a transcript provided by the network. “We are going to run this to ground. [Secretary of State] John Kerry will be talking to his Russian counterpart. We’re going to make sure that we see how serious these proposals are.”

In a separate interview with ABC, Obama said that if Assad were to give up his chemical weapons, a military strike would “absolutely’ be on pause.

The proposal by Russian Foreign Minister Sergey V. Lavrov in Moscow offered the first indication that a diplomatic solution may be possible to the international standoff that has evolved since apparent chemical weapons attacks on rebel-held suburbs outside Damascus on Aug. 21….

Harry Reid has delayed the Senate vote scheduled for Wednesday, which I believe pushes the timetable into next week.

I’m not generally a fan of Winston Churchill, but I agree with his maxim that “Jaw-jaw is always better than war-war”.

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Reader Interactions

269Comments

  1. 1.

    Mino

    September 9, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    Amen.

  2. 2.

    Cygil

    September 9, 2013 at 8:33 pm

    Yeah well, remember that before we start saying that “the pen is mightier than the sword”, remember that’s only when the pen has the sword to back it up. As in this case.

  3. 3.

    chopper

    September 9, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    @Cygil:

    boo, clearly what obama really wants is to sword everyone. he’s a sword-monger.

  4. 4.

    MikeJ

    September 9, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    Funny how the emos who want to complain about the way Obama negotiates don’t like this either. You don’t get a counter proposal without a proposal.

  5. 5.

    Culture of Truth

    September 9, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    President Obama on Monday called a called a Russian proposal for Syria to turn over control of its chemical weapons to international monitors

    It was Kerry’s proposal, taken up by Russia. Except when Kerry said it, it was a terrible gaffe. I know because Jake Tapper said so.

  6. 6.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 8:36 pm

    I blame Obama.

  7. 7.

    Hill Dweller

    September 9, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    The Russian proposal, which was in reaction to Kerry’s “offhand comment”, but was purportedly discussed when Obama met with Putin, is now our saving grace?

    Does Obama get to keep his Presidency?

  8. 8.

    geg6

    September 9, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    @MikeJ:

    This.

    @Culture of Truth:

    And this.

  9. 9.

    gbear

    September 9, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    @Baud: Me too.

  10. 10.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    This is a good thing all around. The chemical weapons are removed from the equation, the US (and France) forcefully stood up against the use of the weapons, Russia gets to be a peacemaker, and no random Syrians get killed to make a point. Hopefully, all the details get worked out.

  11. 11.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    I blame Putin.

  12. 12.

    Morbo

    September 9, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    I’m not generally a fan of Winston Churchill, but I agree with his maxim that “Jaw-jaw is always better than war-war”.

    #handsoffsyria is it then?

  13. 13.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    @Culture of Truth: @Hill Dweller: Mein gott, not the Kerry thing again.

  14. 14.

    Mary G

    September 9, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    Just in time for the anniversary of BENGHAZI!!!

  15. 15.

    gbear

    September 9, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    @Baud: Obot!

  16. 16.

    Emerald

    September 9, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    @Cygil: As Hillary said today, they have to believe you’ll actually do it.

    I said over on the GOS, I was pretty sure he never intended actually to lob the missiles into Syria when he decided to go through Congress–which he did not have to do. He also said that he’s got a pretty good polling operation and knew full well what the public would think.

    So why go through Congress when you know they’ll say no? It could only be because you don’t really intend to fire the missiles. (But I sure didn’t see this coming.)

    Then the Putin meeting (which they were not going to do at all, remember), and Kerry makes this little “slip” in his news conference, and voila: problem gets solved, nobody gets killed.

    I believe the POTUS in the process of winning a pretty ballsy bluff. Obama is a political ninja.

  17. 17.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 8:44 pm

    How does Obama get House Republicans to vote for war? He pretends he doesn’t want it by negotiating a peaceful resolution to the conflict.

    And you Obots fell for it.

    11-D chess, baby!

  18. 18.

    JPL

    September 9, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    If they are able to resolve this situation, what will the republican party leader say. Shuck and Jive seems so yesterday.

  19. 19.

    TaMara (BHF)

    September 9, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    So the American people expressed their discomfort with blowing up Syria and it looks like President Obama may have just found a way, while strengthening the US- Russia relationship.

    He is the worst president ever, isn’t he? #impeachnow

  20. 20.

    lamh36

    September 9, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    Saw this on twitter last week, and it made me both sad, that he felt the need to attempt suicide and glad that it ended at attempts.

    No one should be made to feel that their life is so worthless that they just don’t even need to be here, just for being “different”.

    Wentworth Miller Reveals, ‘I Tried To Kill Myself’ for Being Gay

    Wentworth Miller publicly came out as gay last month, and now he’s discussing his struggle coming to terms with his identity.

    “The first time I tried to kill myself I was 15. I waited until my family went away for the weekend and I was alone in the house and I swallowed a bottle of pills,” Miller said in a speech at the Human Rights Campaign Dinner in Seattle on Saturday, according to a video obtained by TMZ.

    “I don’t remember what happened over the next couple days, but I’m pretty sure come Monday morning I was on a bus back to school pretending everything was fine,” Miller said. “And when someone asked me if that was a cry for help, I say no, because I told no one. You only cry for help if you believe there’s help to cry for and I didn’t. I wanted out. I wanted to go. At 15.”

  21. 21.

    the Conster

    September 9, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    LOL. If I was Obama I would tell Jake Tapper “now watch this drive.”

  22. 22.

    chopper

    September 9, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    @Baud:

    it’s the oldest trick in the book. that obama.

  23. 23.

    max

    September 9, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    @Hill Dweller: The Russian proposal, which was in reaction to Kerry’s “offhand comment”, but was purportedly discussed when Obama met with Putin, is now our saving grace?

    Sure, why not?

    Does Obama get to keep his Presidency?

    The only way to lose it was to get impeached and not even then.

    max
    [‘August is over, finally. Geez.’]

  24. 24.

    NotMax

    September 9, 2013 at 8:48 pm

    The post title brought to mind Gabriel Heatter.

  25. 25.

    Hill Dweller

    September 9, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    @max: Sarcasm, my good man.

  26. 26.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 8:50 pm

    @JPL: I have no idea whether this was a plan, or Kerry gaffed or what. I haven’t followed it that closely, and wouldn’t know even if I had.

    But the GOpers will say that Obama messed it up if he bombs with Congressional approval, if he bombs without, if a diplomatic solution can be found, or if nothing works out and he just walks away.

    I hope a diplomatic solution is found. After that I hope that whatever happens, the GOPers will have to pretzel themselves into the most ridiculous reaction that alienates the most voters.

  27. 27.

    scav

    September 9, 2013 at 8:50 pm

    Good, if we can continue to wobble on without large bangs, good. I was rather hoping this was about Soonergrunt’s daughter as that is less likely to be reported elsewhere — but good wishes to both ongoing situations, reported or no.

  28. 28.

    joes527

    September 9, 2013 at 8:52 pm

    @MikeJ: i must be missing something. can you point out someone (other than walnuts) who is unhappy with the developments of the last 2 hours?

  29. 29.

    different-church-lady

    September 9, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    WAR MONGER ABSOLUTELY WORSE THAN… hey wait, what?

  30. 30.

    joes527

    September 9, 2013 at 8:57 pm

    @joes527: grrrr…

    2 -> 24.

    and fywp

  31. 31.

    different-church-lady

    September 9, 2013 at 9:00 pm

    If… and that’s a big IF… Obama somehow manages to pull this off, I am mixing up big punch bowls of Shut The Fuck Up on ice, and forcing it down some people’s throats.

    It many not have more than two dimensions, but the dude plays chess while everyone else plays with their genitals.

  32. 32.

    Jeremy

    September 9, 2013 at 9:00 pm

    @Emerald: I’ve been saying it and will say it again the man is just like IKE. The hidden hand presidency.

    I think it’s clear that the President used this threat in order to get a settlement especially after he asked Congress to vote on it which would come after the G20. There were reports in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz about a possible deal before the US media started covering it.

  33. 33.

    dmsilev

    September 9, 2013 at 9:00 pm

    @the Conster:

    LOL. If I was Obama I would tell Jake Tapper “now watch this drive.”

    If I were Obama, I would do my damndest to ignore the existence of Jake Tapper.

  34. 34.

    max

    September 9, 2013 at 9:03 pm

    @Hill Dweller: Sarcasm, my good man.

    Not at all sarcastically, Kerry never lied well (he dissembled great! The Senate for the dissembling win!), and he does seem to be a walking gaffe machine. Whereas Obama has been hunting for some way out the whole time, while slowly bending to McCainiac and neocon pressure. If I am reading that right (and I have plenty of evidence to think so) then I am very glad Obama is President and Kerry is not. (And yes, lamh36, conservatives must be secretly delighted Kerry was one with Bush – or not so secretly delighted as Jen Rubin was at pains to point out. I am entirely not delighted at that, but I didn’t support him (or Howard Dean) in the primaries as nominee anyways.)

    max
    [‘Getting a big weary of this ducks and drakes business.’]

  35. 35.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 9:03 pm

    OT. Newsmax headline:

    Jimmy Carter: I Enjoyed ‘The Butler’

    They are so obsessed with that damn film.

    LOL.

  36. 36.

    joes527

    September 9, 2013 at 9:04 pm

    @different-church-lady: is the stfu for all the folks swearing that we had to bomb or the cw treaty was done? or for the folks saying that preferring a diplomatic solution is the same as wanting children to die horribly?

  37. 37.

    Poopyman

    September 9, 2013 at 9:04 pm

    Whocouldanode that declaring you’re going to bomb the shit out of a country and then letting the leadership of said country stew on that for a couple of weeks would produce a diplomatic result?

    TR would have. Speak softly, and all that.

  38. 38.

    cathyx

    September 9, 2013 at 9:05 pm

    I’m sorry, but my stock portfolio requires we start this war if I’m to be able to retire in the next 15 years.

  39. 39.

    Redshirt

    September 9, 2013 at 9:05 pm

    Jar Jar is better than war-war too. But just barely.

  40. 40.

    IowaOldLady

    September 9, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    @Poopyman: Hey, haven’t you heard? Carl Rove says it’s “amateur hour” at the White House if you say you intend to bomb and then wait.

  41. 41.

    Redshirt

    September 9, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    Also, if there is a diplomatic solution in Syria, then the Repukes in the House are gonna vote for war. Whatever’s against Obama!

    I need some concern trolls though. Where’s the regular crew?

  42. 42.

    lamh36

    September 9, 2013 at 9:07 pm

    @eonline 55s
    Leah Remini talks leaving Scientology–and reveals church members can no longer talk to her: http://eonli.ne/17SmNA4

  43. 43.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 9:08 pm

    John Cole was right about Obama:

    “Maybe he is just trying to earn another Nobel Prize.”

  44. 44.

    Poopyman

    September 9, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    @Baud: Heh! Indeed.

  45. 45.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 9:11 pm

    @Baud:

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.

    Cole has half of it down.

  46. 46.

    Ben Cisco

    September 9, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    @the Conster:

    If I was Obama I would tell Jake Tapper “now watch this drive kiss my entire black ass.”

    Fixed.

  47. 47.

    Davis X. Machina

    September 9, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    @dmsilev:

    If I were Obama, I would do my damndest to ignore the existence of Jake Tapper.

    This would free up Jake Tapper to cover the beat he’d really prefer to cover — namely Jake Tapper.

  48. 48.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    @Baud:

    Is enjoying ‘The Butler’ a litmus test for something?

    I saw it, and thought it was OK.

    I hope that makes NewxMax tomorrow.

  49. 49.

    Redshirt

    September 9, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I get that Wizards are subtle, but why quick to anger? You’d think they’d take a long view of things, being Wizards and all and able to divine the future and such.

  50. 50.

    MikeJ

    September 9, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are soggy and hard to light.

  51. 51.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 9:15 pm

    @jl:

    Haven’t seen it. But I understand it has two things conservatives obsess over — Reagan and black people

  52. 52.

    Davis X. Machina

    September 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    @Redshirt: It’s the dealing with morons…. and it’s not just Wizards who are subject to the phenomenon.

  53. 53.

    IowaOldLady

    September 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    @Baud: It has Jane Fonda playing Nancy Reagan. For that reason alone, it deserves an award.

  54. 54.

    Ben Cisco

    September 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    Shut The Fuck Up on ice

    Nice.

  55. 55.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    @Redshirt: Have you ever spent a lot of time around people who are half as smart as you? Do you get irritated in that situation? Imagine spending thousands of years watching people do dumb shit.

  56. 56.

    Davis X. Machina

    September 9, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    @IowaOldLady: That’s like remaking Matewan with John Stossel and whichever one the bad Baldwin is…

  57. 57.

    Lady Bug

    September 9, 2013 at 9:18 pm

    @jl:

    I didn’t read the article cause I don’t read NewsMax, but there was all this mumbo jumbo about how “inaccurate” the Butler portrayed Ronald Reagan. I think the article about Carter liking said movie, is suppose to imply that Carter liked the “inaccurate” way Reagan was portrayed in the movie.

  58. 58.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 9:19 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    … and whichever one the bad worst Baldwin is…

    Adjusted.

  59. 59.

    Elmo

    September 9, 2013 at 9:20 pm

    Open thread! Perfect opportunity for whining. I found a sure fire cure for hiccups Saturday might, but I really don’t recommend it. It involves sitting on a wasp. FUCK THAT HURT.

    And now my leg itches like Hades itself has taken out a contract on me.

  60. 60.

    lamh36

    September 9, 2013 at 9:21 pm

    Tom Vietor on Maddow just now: PBO needs the authorization to make threat on Assad even more credible @Maddow

  61. 61.

    trollhattan

    September 9, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    @Mary G:

    Twas a heartfelt and probably really well thought out letter to the editor in today’s dead tree paper delineating the many, many ways the Obama administration is far, far more corrupt and criminal than the administration of that Nixon fellow.

    Upon reading that I had to reconfigure my entire Weltanschauung. That fucking hurt a lot, I’m still sore.

  62. 62.

    ruemara

    September 9, 2013 at 9:29 pm

    I was reading some of the possible deal and it amazes me how it manages to look good all around. Russia gets to play peacemaker while paying no heavy price for it and China’s obstruction of the UN on enforcing the CW Ban or even doing a simple censure of Syria. Syria can hand things over in the dark, while not admitting fault. The EU gets to avoid the prickly question of who the heck sold those weapons. The mighty US MIC dong can be appeased just being waved about a bit. The UN gets to look less feckless and ridiculous that it has failed to act at all on the Syrian situation. Jordan is not helped particularly with the refugee problem, but it knows it won’t get bigger, faster and there’s a chance it can end quicker. I feel like I’ve been reading some scifi space opera novel where there’s one godawful spider in a web guy and towards the end, you sit back and see where all the threads lead and who they trap. If it works, I’m gonna toss back some rum in PBO and Kerry’s honour, because-DAMN, that’s some fucking hardcore playing. And stop playing chicken with bombs, please.

  63. 63.

    Jeremy

    September 9, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    @Baud: You should see it. It was a good movie and very emotional. I thought they did a good job depicting the Presidents, the suffering of blacks during that time and craziness of the 60’s and 70’s.

  64. 64.

    suzanne

    September 9, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    I’m sure they’ll try to find a way to impeach him for this anyway.

  65. 65.

    Redshirt

    September 9, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Hmm. When you put it like that, from the Wizard’s perspective, I get it. They’re playing checkers and the Wizard’s playing 11-D chess.

  66. 66.

    fuzz

    September 9, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    It hasn’t exactly been a point of national pride like Pakistan’s nukes, but the fact that Syria had a huge CW stockpile has always given the Syrians a little bit of more influence regionally. The fact that Assad might be willing to give them up, to me, really shows that Bashar is confident he can win without them. I also think it shows he was a little more worried about being hit with air strikes than he let on. The chemical weapons are a big deal to the Syrian military, it’s surprising he’d be willing to part with them like this unless he thought the consequences of keeping them were pretty terrible.

  67. 67.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 9, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    I’m not generally a fan of Winston Churchill, but I agree with his maxim that “Jaw-jaw is always better than war-war”.

    One of Churchill’s maxims that causes war criminals like the deserting coward and the Dark Lord to choke on their puree of aborted brown baby soup.

  68. 68.

    the Conster

    September 9, 2013 at 9:35 pm

    On CNN at 10:00 EST: Sully, Greenwald, Charlie Rose and Anderson Cooper. Shoot me now.

  69. 69.

    Liquid

    September 9, 2013 at 9:35 pm

    Before this new development my cynicism was telling me “Well, we need to create new threats for DHS so they can justify their existence.” I didn’t really believe it but after so much of this it’s hard not to be cynical.

    Like the Feds just manufacturing an ‘attack’ by someone who couldn’t wire a lamp much less the new-term-for-bomb.

    I was considering a career in Marketing but it turns out I’m not bitter enough…

    Oh and stop saying nine one one! It’s not like it happened on the first of September! Do you dial nine eleven for an ambulance?!

  70. 70.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 9, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    @IowaOldLady:

    Drone strikes on Kkkarl Rove are looking pretty good about now.

  71. 71.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 9, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    Grrrr….duplicate comment. NUKED!

  72. 72.

    Hunter Gathers

    September 9, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    Putin needs some better p.r. as we inch closer to the Winter Olympics. Playing the role of mediator in all this softens his edges just a little bit. He needs some better press going into the opening ceremony and it will give the worldwide press something to talk about other than the anti-gay laws, which would be the ‘narrative’ that’ll run throughout the coverage of the Games. This way, everybody gets what they want. Obama gets to back himself out the corner painted by the ‘red lines’ comments a few months back, Putin gets good P.R. and keeps Assad in charge, which Putin wants in order to protect his natural gas interest, democracy and negotiation will win the day, and the right wingers get to bitch, because that’s what they always do.

  73. 73.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    @Liquid: 9-1-1 is a Porsche.

    ETA: It is also a joke.

  74. 74.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    September 9, 2013 at 9:38 pm

    @Jeremy: Any movie that has Newsmaxx so butt-hurt that they write stories about the movie losing audience from the first week to the next(Yet still remains No.1 at the box office) and so called conservative”historians” say the treatment of Reagan was inaccurate, is a movie I would recommend.

  75. 75.

    Anne Laurie

    September 9, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.

    I always prefered “Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and would taste good with ketchup.”

  76. 76.

    lamh36

    September 9, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    @lrozen 10h
    In hindsight, suggests Kerry’s remarks were not off the cuff or misstatement, though spox tried to walk back @chucktodd

    @aspirational12 8 Sep
    Right now, MSM is feverishly conducting push polls with questionable samples to be released right before PBO’s Tuesday speech.

  77. 77.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 9, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    A B5 reference! Uttered by the late, great Michael Ansara, no less.

  78. 78.

    different-church-lady

    September 9, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    @joes527: It’s for everyone! Everyone gets to drink the Shut The Fuck Up on ice, and then everyone gets to sit around and smile about the fact that we’re not bombing while the Shut The Fuck Up runs through their veins.

    Because I don’t know anyone… ANYONE… who can say they accurately saw this development coming.

    ‘Course, it ain’t all played out yet, which is why I ain’t pulled the punch bowl out of the basement.

  79. 79.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 9, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    @Mr Stagger Lee:

    I did not think it possible for a President to be worse than Reagan was.

    Then the deserting coward came along…

  80. 80.

    Anne Laurie

    September 9, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    @Redshirt:

    I get that Wizards are subtle, but why quick to anger?

    A thousand years of dick-measuring contests. I’d tell you to google “A Wizard’s Staff Has A Knob on the End”, but not from your work computer….

  81. 81.

    PsiFighter37

    September 9, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    Pretty sure this was an example of some serious 11D chess going on. Come on – Obama’s a smart guy. I’m pretty sure he sent the AUMF to Congress because he damn well knew that there’d be a bunch of GOP assholes shitting on each other about whether to follow their militaristic instincts or oppose the Kenyan socialist. It gives him enough time to pull this off. Now, whether or not Kerry was supposed to drop that comment in public, who knows. But I have to believe they knew what they were doing, and now we’re going to get out of this in a better position – Assad has to give up his chemical weapons – and we stay clear of the sectarian conflict in Syria.

    In chess, this is what’s known as a tactical combination, and now he’s cleaning up the aftermath. Gangster.

  82. 82.

    Liquid

    September 9, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: A joke? Nonsense! I heard Fitz say it on that delightful HBO program “The Wire.” True story!

  83. 83.

    IowaOldLady

    September 9, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    @different-church-lady: What a great idea. Can it be piped through the Internet, it being a series of tubes and all, because lots of people online need it. A lot.

  84. 84.

    lamh36

    September 9, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    I refuse to watch political shows, it keeps me sane. But I know some of ya’ll do, so please somebody tell me that Maddow was NOT really giving Sen Joe Manchin “credit” for the possible “diplomatic” solution to Syria.

    Somebody please tell me what exactly did Manchin say?

    Also, can I just say that with all the agreement over doing what the polls say the American people want, how soon can we expect to see Immigration reform, gun control, and climate change bills passed? Aren’t all “supported” by polls???

  85. 85.

    Redshirt

    September 9, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    @Anne Laurie: There’s only so much anger to go around. After a thousand years you’d think you could let it go. One might hope. But hey, I’m no Wizard, alas.

  86. 86.

    kc

    September 9, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    @joes527:

    No shit. It’s like these people forgot everything they’ve been saying for days.

  87. 87.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    September 9, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: I always said anyone with a pulse would be a better president than Shrubous Boobious Maximus(W to all of you) back in those dark days of his mis-rule. To those wingnuts who still write that shit on my facebook, no I don’t miss him.

  88. 88.

    srv

    September 9, 2013 at 9:49 pm

    Well, it’s a positive development that Obama wants to give them more than the “one week” deadline John McCain’s SoS wanted to.

    Notice that Hillary’s statement came after Kerry’s and before Obamas.

  89. 89.

    Liquid

    September 9, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    @lamh36: Whenever she wears that striped ‘Rooskie sailor’ shirt I tend to get distracted.

  90. 90.

    Lady Bug

    September 9, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    @lamh36:

    I didn’t watch the TRMS or any political show for pretty much the same reason, but he and another Senator were purposing an alternative bill that would demand that Syria sign the CW ban and give up their CW in 45 days, or face U.S. military bombardment.

  91. 91.

    different-church-lady

    September 9, 2013 at 9:52 pm

    @IowaOldLady: We should just have National Shut The Fuck Up Day.

    One day of the year — just one day! — reserved for blessed peace.

  92. 92.

    Jeremy

    September 9, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    @Mr Stagger Lee: LOL ! I really don’t understand why they are so upset about his portrayal when Reagan used the Southern Strategy for electoral advantage. He said controversial things about MLK in the 60’s and was forced to support the creation of MLK day, and he was forced by Congress including a lot of republicans to stop supporting the apartheid regime’s actions in South Africa.

  93. 93.

    Poopyman

    September 9, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    @ruemara:

    And stop playing chicken with bombs, please.

    So, you missed that whole Mutually Assured Destruction thingy, then?

  94. 94.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    Because I don’t know anyone… ANYONE… who can say they accurately saw this development coming.

    I know I didn’t see this coming. But I am happy it is moving along. I wanted something to be done to respond to the use of chemical weapons, but I didn’t think bombing would accomplish anything useful. If this comes to pass, I will be quite pleased and satisfied.

  95. 95.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 9:56 pm

    @Mr Stagger Lee:

    Ha, I read the NewsMax article, it was just an excuse to whine that Reagan was portrayed as a racist in the movie. So sad.

    (Edit: I didn’t think Reagan was portrayed as a racist in the film, even if in real history he did cynically use race as wedge politics, but our current reactionaries project onto everything, I guess, including ol’ Saint Ronnie)

    But after reading the article describing the historical model, Eugene Allen, the movie might have been more interesting if it had been able to go to him for source material.

    A Butler Well-Served by this Election
    WaPo, Nov 7 2008
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110603948_pf.html

  96. 96.

    lamh36

    September 9, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    @Lady Bug: ah. so is Maddow saying that Manchin put this bug in POTUS ear?

    Well maybe, did this happen before he had the meeting w/Putin at G20? He said he discussed it with Putin then right?

    Well, I guess anything is better than giving Obama or Kerry any credit at all, especially since it’s been non-stop bumbling, idiotic Kerry/Obama all last week.

    ETA: funny enough though, Manchin doesn’t want to be associated with Obama in much of anyway, being Senator from WV, so I’m guessing he’d prefer NOT to be mentioned as “Obama’s saviour” w/his WV constituents.

  97. 97.

    Poopyman

    September 9, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    ‘Course, it ain’t all played out yet, which is why I ain’t pulled the punch bowl out of the basement.

    Yeah, we still have to see Syria actually agree to this, and then actually give up their control. Won’t happen overnight.

  98. 98.

    Jeremy

    September 9, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    @lamh36: Well like many things this President rarely gets credit. If it wasn’t for Obama’s threat to strike Syria nothing would have happened. Don’t these idiots understand that Russia and Syria are reacting to a potential strike and that the President was the one talking to Putin about a potential settlement ? This has nothing to do with some no name hick Senator who has no influence in the world.

  99. 99.

    David in NY

    September 9, 2013 at 10:01 pm

    “I’m not generally a fan of Winston Churchill, ,,,”

    That’s heresy, if not blasphemy, to one of my, or the immediately preceding, generation. Whatever else, he kept Britain from making a separate peace, and had he not, where, exactly, would we have launched D-Day from?

  100. 100.

    suzanne

    September 9, 2013 at 10:02 pm

    @different-church-lady: We should just have National Shut The Fuck Up Day.
    Truer words have never been written on this blog.

  101. 101.

    suzanne

    September 9, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    @suzanne: Browser fucked up my quote.

    Still stuck at work.

    Grateful to have a job. Grateful to have a job. Grateful to have a job.

  102. 102.

    Bobby Thomson

    September 9, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    @Liquid:

    Do you dial nine eleven for an ambulance?!

    Obligatory urban legend

  103. 103.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    Did see this interesting story at NewsMax. Your day in incongruity:

    World’s Happiest People Live in Scandinavia: UN Study
    NewsMax
    Monday, 09 Sep 2013 01:31 PM

    “The happiest people in the world live in Scandinavia and the Netherlands, a new UN-backed study suggests.

    According to the 2013 World Happiness Report released September 9 by Columbia University’s Earth Institute, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Sweden are the world’s happiest countries, according to the survey of 156 countries.”

    Then the highlighted link bait for a scaremongeing ad: ‘Obamacare: Massive New Rules Revealed for 2013’

    http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/Health-News/happy-scandinavia-netherlands-rankings/2013/09/09/id/524603

  104. 104.

    suzanne

    September 9, 2013 at 10:04 pm

    Speaking of (I hope!) good news, any word on the Soonerspawn?

  105. 105.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    September 9, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    O/t But this makes me weep for democracy. And I don’t mean to come close to the Godwin zone, but a war on libraries, equals book burning.

  106. 106.

    Liquid

    September 9, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    @David in NY: You mean before or after Hitler kicked in that Russian door?

  107. 107.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    @jl:

    “The happiest people in the world live in Scandinavia and the Netherlands, a new UN-backed study suggests.

    That’s unpossible. It’s a UN study… LIES!!!! Benghazi!

    /wingnut

  108. 108.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    September 9, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    I definitely didn’t see it coming, but I really, really hoped something like this was in the works and that was why there was always something else delaying immediate bombing. This, honestly, is even better than what my best-case scenario was.

  109. 109.

    different-church-lady

    September 9, 2013 at 10:07 pm

    @Poopyman:

    Won’t happen overnight.

    Which was a very big, but tacit part of my semi-incoherent point. This situation came up and nearly everyone just started spouting off about what it meant and what the president was going to do and why he wanted to do it and how it was all going to turn out.

    In the meantime Obama actually had an actual chess match to play. And chess is a long game.

    BTW, I should mention I’m +1, but it was a very potent 1.

  110. 110.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 10:08 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    That’s unpossible. It’s a UN study… LIES!!!! Benghazi!

    /wingnut

    In the wingnut mind, it’s believable because white people.

  111. 111.

    ruemara

    September 9, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    @Poopyman: I have no idea what your comment is supposed to mean as a response to mine. Luckily, I’d have to go to the store to purchase a fuck to give.

  112. 112.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    @different-church-lady: As long as the process is set up and ongoing, there will be no bombing. As long as the process is set up and ongoing, the chances of chemical weapons being used are decreased. This is good.

  113. 113.

    Bobby Thomson

    September 9, 2013 at 10:10 pm

    @different-church-lady: S

    hut The Fuck Up on ice

    That was always a fun place to go on Thanksgiving.

  114. 114.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    September 9, 2013 at 10:12 pm

    @Mr Stagger Lee: The more I think about it is the teabagger version of the burning of the great library of Alexandria.

  115. 115.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 10:13 pm

    I’ll try to figure out whether Obama is a genius beyond human ken or a pathetic bungler on Syira after I figure out whether John Adams was a genius beyond human ken or a pathetic bungler during the Quais-War, and I don’t know how many presidents afterwards.

  116. 116.

    Cacti

    September 9, 2013 at 10:13 pm

    Good call by Reid to postpone the vote.

  117. 117.

    lamh36

    September 9, 2013 at 10:17 pm

    oh please…how soon after the Obama presidency is over before we began to hear one of the Obama girls as political pundits like this chick and that girl McCain chick. Shit, the Obama girls can’t say anything as stupid as this!

    @HuntsmanAbby: Leave it to Russia to lead with a diplomatic resolution on #Syria. If only the US had thought of that first?!

  118. 118.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 10:18 pm

    @jl: You have solved George Washington and Whiskey Rebellion? Let me guess Bungling genius?

  119. 119.

    magurakurin

    September 9, 2013 at 10:18 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    Me, too. I was hoping that Assad would offer up some rogue general as a sacrificial lamb, but this is better. Also, too I hope folks are noticing the difference here between Iraq; when Saddam offered to give up everything he had at the end, the Bushies said, “oh hell no” and attacked. This is a different play with different actors.

    And Obama again proves to me he is way smarter than me. They are engaging in what used to be called brinkmanship and they seem to be doing well. Let’s hope all parties involved can get this done, because bombing Syria still seems like a bad option even if it now looks to have been an effective threat.

  120. 120.

    Morbo

    September 9, 2013 at 10:19 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s good as long as you forget conventional weapons exist.

  121. 121.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    @Morbo:

    So if we remember that conventional weapons exist, this is not a good development?

  122. 122.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    @Morbo: No, taking chemical weapons out of the equation is a good thing. There still is an ugly civil war going on, but it is less ugly without chemical weapons.

  123. 123.

    MikeJ

    September 9, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    In the meantime Obama actually had an actual chess match to play. And chess is a long game.

    I covered a chess game (the Kasparov-Karpov match in NY). Sat in the press room and played games against GMs who I would have never met in a tourney because they were 800 points better than me. I got trounced over and over, but what fun it was! And much cheaper than losing over and over in Washington Square.

    BTW, I should mention I’m +1, but it was a very potent 1.

    I’m 6 up on you. I’m approaching Psifighter territory.

  124. 124.

    lojasmo

    September 9, 2013 at 10:22 pm

    @max:

    I am very glad Obama is President and Kerry is not.

    A million times this.

  125. 125.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 10:22 pm

    @magurakurin: This.

  126. 126.

    magurakurin

    September 9, 2013 at 10:22 pm

    @Morbo:

    for fuck’s sake, man, this development is an unqualified good thing. And every time someone fails to see that, a unicorn cries.

  127. 127.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    @lojasmo:

    Obama is a better president than Kerry would have been, but I still wish Kerry had won in 2004.

  128. 128.

    PsiFighter37

    September 9, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    @lamh36: Abby Huntsman was in my class at Penn. Based on that kind of analysis, would have to guess she got in more for legacy reasons than because of her smarts.

    I don’t understand these progeny of Republican politicians who feel the need to stay affiliated with a party they know is out of sync with even most of their views.

  129. 129.

    Poopyman

    September 9, 2013 at 10:24 pm

    @magurakurin: Oddly, and ironically, it was Dubya that set this scenario up to succeed. He set the standard for Crazy/Stupid American President, and the rest of the world now has to wonder just what shit the US is really going to pull.

  130. 130.

    Tehanu

    September 9, 2013 at 10:24 pm

    @jl:
    Ronnie Rayguns should be looking up from, well, let’s be kind and say his hundred-thousand year penance in Purgatory, and thanking God that Alan Rickman, a far greater actor than he could ever have even dreamed of being, played him in the movie. And all his fanboys and -gals (Nooners, particularly) should be doing the same and shutting the f. up about anything else.

  131. 131.

    Jeremy

    September 9, 2013 at 10:24 pm

    @lamh36: It’s like they can’t think. What lead to Russia coming up with this idea ? The threat of a strike.

    It’s not rocket science. Russia would be doing nothing right now if it wasn’t for the threat and the talks at the G20. But we can’t give that negro in the white house credit for anything because minorities are inferior.

  132. 132.

    magurakurin

    September 9, 2013 at 10:25 pm

    @lojasmo:

    and fifty bazillion gadzillion times glad that Rmoney isn’t president right now

  133. 133.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    @Baud: I think Kerry would have done well as president.

  134. 134.

    AxelFoley

    September 9, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    @Emerald:

    I believe the POTUS in the process of winning a pretty ballsy bluff. Obama is a political ninja.

    He’s gangsta as fuck. Dudebros need to recognize.

  135. 135.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: No, George Washington was a Genus Bungler. You have it backward.

    BTW, I forgot about GW Bush. That case is closed. Sorry for the oversight.

  136. 136.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 10:27 pm

    @Poopyman:

    I don’t agree. But for Bush, we probably would have been able to put together a more widespread and resolute international alliance to deal with this situation more effectively.

  137. 137.

    Suffern ACE

    September 9, 2013 at 10:27 pm

    @Poopyman: or who could have thought that, per the previous thread, that leaking out that you were preparing to attack Saudi Arabia in response to said attack would result in getting the Superpower to back off.

  138. 138.

    joes527

    September 9, 2013 at 10:28 pm

    @different-church-lady: I didn’t see it coming. Though if folks around here are right it was probably because I was watching Kerry overplaying bad-cop, and not noticing Obama doing good-cop.

    In any case, there seems to be a path forward that doesn’t require us to lob a few missiles into the middle of a civil war, so I’m going to assume that Obama and Putin read what I have written here, and heeded my advice.

    I know, I know… STFU.

  139. 139.

    AxelFoley

    September 9, 2013 at 10:29 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    If… and that’s a big IF… Obama somehow manages to pull this off, I am mixing up big punch bowls of Shut The Fuck Up on ice, and forcing it down some people’s throats.

    It many not have more than two dimensions, but the dude plays chess while everyone else plays with their genitals.

    No doubt, you ARE a different kind of church lady. LOL

  140. 140.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 10:29 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Depends on the curve you’re grading on, I suppose.

  141. 141.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 10:30 pm

    @different-church-lady: I prefer hot buttered shut the fuck up.

  142. 142.

    Betty Cracker

    September 9, 2013 at 10:31 pm

    @lamh36: I saw Maddow’s show, and I don’t think she was crediting Manchin. He floated a proposal to give Syria 45 days, and she mentioned that, i think in the context that the idea of giving Syria that option had been out there in public prior to Kerry’s remarks.

    But she seemed to take the “Kerry made a gaff and Russia jumped on it” angle. I think she even allowed for the possibility that it was eleventy dimensional chess, if memory serves.

  143. 143.

    MomSense

    September 9, 2013 at 10:32 pm

    @PsiFighter37:

    It has been reported that Kerry and Lavrov have been meeting/working since shortly after the chemical attacks took place.

  144. 144.

    Baud

    September 9, 2013 at 10:33 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    I can’t believe Putin was paying more attention to Kerry than to Manchin.

  145. 145.

    magurakurin

    September 9, 2013 at 10:33 pm

    I think the STFU should be for all the drive-by shooters who were coming by with great regularity and spewing “war monger, baby killer, dick wagger” vindictives all over many of the regular commenters who were either opposed to the bombing or for it but highly conflicted and wishing to debate and examine both sides. The STFU should be for all those people who didn’t/don’t have the courtesy to read through a a thread or two before hurling half-baked attacks.

  146. 146.

    lamh36

    September 9, 2013 at 10:34 pm

    @Betty Cracker: that last part is the bit I really can’t stand about Maddow.

    She likes to be billed as being “above the betlway” narrative, and yet time after time, she falls into that narrative herself.

    Admittedly, she will come and say “ok, I was wrong”, but even then its from a “well I might have been wrong”, but still…

    it grates on me. When she’s truly outside of the beltway, like she was in North Carolina last week, she is great…but I guess everyone who lives in the MSM bubble falls prey to it often enough

  147. 147.

    askew

    September 9, 2013 at 10:34 pm

    @Emerald:

    @Cygil: As Hillary said today, they have to believe you’ll actually do it.

    I said over on the GOS, I was pretty sure he never intended actually to lob the missiles into Syria when he decided to go through Congress–which he did not have to do. He also said that he’s got a pretty good polling operation and knew full well what the public would think.

    You attempt to defend Obama at GOS? That’s a waste of time. That place is full of ODS sufferers and libetarians now.

  148. 148.

    Lady Bug

    September 9, 2013 at 10:36 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    Thanks for the info. :) I’ve put a temporary ban on watching any political /news show, even though for the most part, I do like TRMS.

  149. 149.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 10:36 pm

    @AxelFoley:

    If the diplomacy works, it will be interesting watching the white bigots who dominate the news and political gossip explain it away. It certainly can’t be that Obama is… adequate… now can it?

    Maybe Matthews will wake up on the right side of the bed one day and have an on-air tantrum as a small counterbalance.

  150. 150.

    lamh36

    September 9, 2013 at 10:37 pm

    ‏@davidaxelrod 1m
    If POTUS hadn’t threatened credible military response, does anyone believe Russia and Syria would be coming forward now? No time to falter.

    Well, I’ll be damned:

    @TheLastWord 26m
    [email protected]: Russia’s plan is a real proposal and this would not have happened if Obama hadn’t threatened to use military force.

  151. 151.

    schrodinger's cat

    September 9, 2013 at 10:37 pm

    I has new post about my camping trip

  152. 152.

    Jeremy

    September 9, 2013 at 10:39 pm

    @Betty Cracker: The thing is I watched what Kerry said and it clearly didn’t come off like a gaffe. The Administration has consistently said that their main issue is the use of chemical weapons and upholding the ban. The only reason why we are talking about this is because of the red line.

    And it contradicts what the President said today about these talks being in the works.

  153. 153.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 10:39 pm

    @jl: That was something that was pissing me off on the earlier thread today – the idea that a good result was something that Obama/Kerry stumbled into as opposed to something they worked competently to get.

  154. 154.

    lojasmo

    September 9, 2013 at 10:40 pm

    @Baud:

    No doubt. I voted for him. I remember the day after was so fucking bleak.

    Still battled against him in the primaries.

  155. 155.

    Liquid

    September 9, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    So now GE has perverted Marty McFly. These people need to be stopped.

  156. 156.

    ? Martin

    September 9, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    @jl:

    It certainly can’t be that Obama is… adequate… now can it?

    They’ll just keep fellating topless Putin, as they have since he went after the gheys. He’s the new conservative hero. Will go up on Mt. Rushes along with Reagan and Zimmerman.

  157. 157.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    @Jeremy: I can believe that there have been behind the scenes negotiations between US and Russia, and several others, about how to get out of the Syria mess.

    And if so, and if things have been developing, I can believe Obama decided to go for a maybe-not-conclusive stamp of approval from Congress to eff with the GOP.

    And if there were behind the scenes talks, going to Congress was a clever feint to play for time. I mean, put Congress on the spot to make an important and probably unpopular decision, that will get the C-critters pissing themselves so much they won’t meddle and mess things up.

    But all the all-so-knowing talk is speculation at this point.

  158. 158.

    Lady Bug

    September 9, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    @Jeremy:

    What did POTUS say about talks being in the work?

    I’m not going to meep meep or anything until a deal is done, but I’m praying/sending good vibes/etc, etc.

  159. 159.

    Liquid

    September 9, 2013 at 10:48 pm

    “‘Thirteen Days?’ I thought that movie was bullshit.” – C.M.

  160. 160.

    Jeremy

    September 9, 2013 at 10:49 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s been the story of this presidency. Even some on the left act like Obama won election and re-election because of luck, everything is luck or miracles but not skill. It’s really condescending and it appears racist.

  161. 161.

    PsiFighter37

    September 9, 2013 at 10:49 pm

    @Baud: True that. We would have owned the Supreme Court for a generation if we had gotten to pick both Rehnquist’s and O’Connor’s replacement.

    What’s done is done, but we’re going to probably have gone a good 70 years (or potentially longer) without having one of our guys (I’m counting Earl Warren as one of us in this analysis) running the show at SCOTUS.

  162. 162.

    lojasmo

    September 9, 2013 at 10:50 pm

    @Lady Bug:

    Meep meep, mothafuckers.

    Where are all the troals. Haven’t seen spats since before Zimmerman.

    ETA: Lojasmo +2-3 (I drink big glasses of wine)

  163. 163.

    Suffern ACE

    September 9, 2013 at 10:51 pm

    @jl: which might be true. It is possible that tge negations are going to result in something that will be unpopular with Congress and they needed to be reminded that they were opposed to the alternative.

  164. 164.

    SiubhanDuinne

    September 9, 2013 at 10:52 pm

    @Mr Stagger Lee: Jeesus Crisp. These people are fucking sociopathic criminals.

  165. 165.

    magurakurin

    September 9, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    @lojasmo:

    I remember the day after was so fucking bleak.

    I cried when I heard he had lost Ohio.

  166. 166.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    @Suffern ACE: And having the racist GOPer pols just make incoherent fools of themselves will be helpful, if diplomacy broke out. And the news and ‘analysis’ writers would occupy themselves with scenarios and speculation about presidential tests and trials..

  167. 167.

    MomSense

    September 9, 2013 at 10:56 pm

    @lojasmo:

    Meep Meep!!!

    I was +2 (more like 4) yesterday and now I am -1 today and sticking with tea.

  168. 168.

    Jeremy

    September 9, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    @PsiFighter37: That’s why controlling the White House for another 4 years is imperative.

  169. 169.

    Liquid

    September 9, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    LOD is just haranguing Tony Dick. You should see this, it’s certainly cringe-worthy.

    ETA — Dicky said harangue at least twice, that was a fucking awesome well not interview but yeah.

  170. 170.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 10:58 pm

    @magurakurin: I was in Ohio. I stood in drizzle for a couple of hours to vote that night. The next day I went to work and listened to some fat-assed blowhard laugh about the same-sex marriage ban. Of course he had a right to his own opinion, but two of our coworkers, people he had worked with for years were in long term same sex relationships and had just been told they were less than. Assholes.

  171. 171.

    SiubhanDuinne

    September 9, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    @magurakurin: Yeah. Me too. So very happy and optimistic when I left the voting booth, so dismayed 12 hours later.

  172. 172.

    Morbo

    September 9, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Their use may be out of the equation, scare quotes added at one’s discretion, but the chemicals aren’t just going to disappear. Just getting the UN inspectors into East Ghouta was a monumental undertaking. How much, and how long will it take to ensure the dismantlement of the entire program and chemicals? During a civil war? Take a look at how long dismantlement took at army bases within the United States. Anniston: 2006-2011; Deseret: 1996-2012; Edgewood: 2003-2006; Johnston Atoll: 1990-2000; Newport: 2005-2008, etc… Billions of dollars and a solid 25 years of effort. They have to remain secure throughout from the AQ boogeymen and not be tapped back into by the regime. You’ll forgive me if I’m not looking forward to the body count that builds up in the intervening time.

  173. 173.

    LiberalTarian

    September 9, 2013 at 11:08 pm

    @Emerald:

    Yup. If he’d have gone to the Republicans with this first it would have been all “NOT OVER OUR SOLDIERS DEAD BODIES!! WE ARE GOING TO INVADE!!!!”

    Of course, is he a genius pretending to be a simple man, or is he a simple man who has genius thrust upon him?

    Let’s hope Putin can make it stick. Russia and Syria go way back. Then again, maybe Assad figures if Russia comes for him, his ass is really is grass.

  174. 174.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 11:09 pm

    @Morbo: No, they aren’t going to just disappear, but I will take making their use out of the question for now. If they were used once, they would be used again. If this deal goes through, their use is much less likely. I am willing to call that a win.

  175. 175.

    KS in MA

    September 9, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    @Elmo: Sorry to hear about your encounter with the wasp. And– if your leg responded by itching, you might want to go see an allergist. I mean, you should go see one. Anyone who’s allergic to bee/wasp stings (me included) can tell you it’s no joke.

  176. 176.

    askew

    September 9, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    @Jeremy:

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s been the story of this presidency. Even some on the left act like Obama won election and re-election because of luck, everything is luck or miracles but not skill. It’s really condescending and it appears racist.

    Yep, there is a portion of the left that can’t wrap their brains around the fact that Obama is smart and competent and knows more than they do.

  177. 177.

    Mandalay

    September 9, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    @Culture of Truth:

    It was Kerry’s proposal, taken up by Russia.

    Not really. Firstly, the State Department explicitly clarified that Kerry was speaking “rhetorically” and that getting Assad to relinquish his chemical weapons was an “impossibility”.

    Secondly, it was previously reported (on Sept 2) that Russia had already approached the US about disarming Assad…

    The Iranian lawmakers told Assad that Tehran is not fully in the picture of the secret Russian-US dialogue on Syria, but Tehran had reason to believe that the Russians had put out feelers to the Americans on the proposition and were not initially turned down.

    Russian and Iranian intelligence experts on US politics expect Obama’s limited offensive plan for Syria to run into major obstacles in Congress. They hope the opposition will find added support for its counter-arguments in the Iranian-Russian proposition.

    That would also explain why Putin had been goading the Administration about the lack of evidence; he had a counter-proposal up his sleeve all the time.

    I think this thread is declaring victory way too soon. The devil is in the details, and once talks get underway Assad will presumably start being difficult (possibly as detailed in the link above), and stall. Sure the US could still go ahead and intervene anyway, but as time goes by the public’s perception of the necessity for intervention will diminish, especially if Congress says no. Public opposition here is still rising.

  178. 178.

    LiberalTarian

    September 9, 2013 at 11:13 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    Heh. Chess. Genitals. *snork*

  179. 179.

    Belafon

    September 9, 2013 at 11:14 pm

    @Mandalay: *Sigh*
    And I quote different church lady:

    ‘Course, it ain’t all played out yet, which is why I ain’t pulled the punch bowl out of the basement.

  180. 180.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    @LiberalTarian:

    ” Assad figures if Russia comes for him, his ass is really is grass. ”

    Russia doesn’t give a fig about Assad, they care about a friendly, or at least not overtly hostile regime in Syria that is safe from radical Islam. That is what they really care about in the Syrian civil war. I don’t see how they care whether Assad himself or any of his immediate associates comes along with that unless it is absolutely necessary.

    If Russia can lever international control of the chemical weapons into some kind of stable outcome that they like, they may be putting a lot of pressure on Assad to do a deal.

    Edit: and, noting Mandalay’s comment above, hope that whatever is going on diplomatically, it works out.

  181. 181.

    lojasmo

    September 9, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    @lojasmo:

    Where are all the troals?

    @Mandalay:

    Ah, good.

  182. 182.

    Mandalay

    September 9, 2013 at 11:19 pm

    @joes527:

    In any case, there seems to be a path forward that doesn’t require us to lob a few missiles into the middle of a civil war

    What exactly is that path though? It’s good that US intervention is on hold, but that is all. What would actually happen to the chemical weapons? Or more precisely, what would the Administration require from Assad in order for us not to intervene?

    Once the UN gets involved, and the talking starts, I would expect Assad (with Russian backing) to start coming up with his own conditions for disarming.

  183. 183.

    LiberalTarian

    September 9, 2013 at 11:19 pm

    @Elmo:

    For the sting, apply a hot spoon (as hot as you can stand it) to the area. It is supposed to denature the proteins. I can say first hand it works on spider bites.

  184. 184.

    Belafon

    September 9, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    @Belafon: Also, have you ever had to deal with those people who have to believe it was their idea or they won’t go for it? I have, and generally, until I can find a new job, it generally involves me making suggestions to lead the person in the right direction. I generally describe that as “working well with different types of people.”

  185. 185.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 11:21 pm

    @Mandalay: As long as people are talking, Assad won’t be using the weapons and we won’t be bombing. How is this bad?

  186. 186.

    LiberalTarian

    September 9, 2013 at 11:23 pm

    @jl:

    They care about power, which they could have more of if non-ball playing Assad is out of the way. I wouldn’t say that Syria has ever truly been a Russian client state, but there was a time when Turkey and Syria nearly went to war due to what Turkey perceived as Russia’s outsize influence.

    If Putin/Russia decides Assad needs killing he/they won’t wait for the UN or the world to agree with them. It’ll just happen.

  187. 187.

    Lady Bug

    September 9, 2013 at 11:23 pm

    @Jeremy:

    I agree, it didn’t sound like a gaffe at all to me. Added to the fact that Kerry was in discussions with his Russian counterpart since after the chemical attacks, Obama & Putin are reported to have talked about it during their 20 minute convo at the G-20 AND that Kerry just happened to make a “gaffe” right when there just *happen* to be high level meetings between Syrian and Russian officials in Moscow…

  188. 188.

    Mandalay

    September 9, 2013 at 11:25 pm

    @jl:

    Russia doesn’t give a fig about Assad, they care about a friendly, or at least not overtly hostile regime in Syria that is safe from radical Islam

    Indirectly….what Russia really cares about is having guaranteed access to a naval port in the Mediterranean, and Assad gives them that.

  189. 189.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 11:25 pm

    @Lady Bug: But, but, but Kerry changed, man… He became like a warmongering gaffe monster. Or something.

  190. 190.

    Scamp Dog

    September 9, 2013 at 11:27 pm

    @Morbo: The real Churchill was smarter and more flexible than the one wingnuts remember. Of course, he made some howling blunders, too (Galipoli, for instance).

  191. 191.

    Betty Cracker

    September 9, 2013 at 11:28 pm

    @Jeremy: I saw Kerry’s remarks too, and it didn’t sound like a gaffe per se, but it didn’t sound like a negotiating ploy either. Maybe the admin gamed all this out, in which case Obama and Kerry deserve some major kudos. But it’s not stupid or racist or firebaggy to wonder if this possible out from a tight spot might be more happenstance than master plan. YMMV.

  192. 192.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 11:28 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Like I said it’s all speculation at this point, but was Eisenhower the first president to admit that coming off like a putz was often useful strategy while things were developing?

    I read someplace that in a meeting he was asked what his strategy would be with the press on something that was in the works, and he said he was going to to out there and confuse the hell out of them.

  193. 193.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 11:31 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    if this possible out from a tight spot might be more happenstance than master plan.

    One could say almost the same things about the Cuban Missile Crisis. I don’t think anyone is going to suggest that Obama and Kerry have been working toward this result fro the get go, but it seems to be something that has been being batted around for a while.

  194. 194.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 11:31 pm

    @Mandalay: Yes. The access is what I meant by “friendly”. It’s a fairly straightforward requirement that makes any leader replaceable.

    Edit: but not replaceable by any of the rebel leaders, so I think Russia is trying to find a way forward with the current regime, but I don’t see how Assad is necessary himself. Seems to me getting international involvement would make things more stable, and Russia would like as a solution that if they could have enough control over the terms.

  195. 195.

    Morbo

    September 9, 2013 at 11:33 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Presumably, this should have made it less likely as well, but 9 months come and go.

  196. 196.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 11:35 pm

    @Morbo: Obviously that was wrong.

  197. 197.

    Mandalay

    September 9, 2013 at 11:35 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    As long as people are talking, Assad won’t be using the weapons and we won’t be bombing. How is this bad?

    That in itself is not bad at all – it’s good. It’s just that the general mood of the thread seems to be that Obama has won, and everything is OK now, but this is just the beginning of another chapter in the saga.

    I can’t imagine that Assad won’t demand something(s) in return for relinquishing his chemical weapons, and once we enter that zone intervention will become even trickier than it is now. Public support will wane, the UN will deliberate, politicians will whine, and the fighting will continue.

    Cameron and Obama appeared to be very keen to intervene in Syria because they were – I expect they understood that they only had a very limited timeframe to act.

  198. 198.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 11:41 pm

    @Mandalay: I think fighting and lots of killing are going to continue in Syria in any event. The question is how to keep the international consequences under control. That sounds callous, but I think it is the case, and how people like Obama and Putin are thinking, when they put their ‘practical men of affairs’ hats on.

  199. 199.

    joes527

    September 9, 2013 at 11:42 pm

    @Mandalay: it is much simpler than that for Assad. “you want the CWS? here you go… take them all. … inspect till you are blue in the face….” … and he’ll still have some squirled away somewhere.

    but he won’t be able to use them. that would give away the game. not perfect. not by a long shot. but better than where we are today.

  200. 200.

    lojasmo

    September 9, 2013 at 11:43 pm

    @Mandalay:

    This is all laid out in international law. Read up, you’ll spend a lot less time here asking pointless fucking questions, the answers to which are easily found on the internet.

    It will be good for you.

  201. 201.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 11:43 pm

    @Mandalay: I think you are misreading the thread a bit. Just abut everyone has offered a caveat of “if the deal goes through,” not in every comment – that would be tiresome – but it’s there. As far as the fighting continuing goes, I don’t think the goal was ever to stop or settle the Syrian civil war. It has been about the chemical weapons, so, if the deal goes through, it is a win. You seem to be working under the assumption that the goal to be accomplished was military strikes. I see the goal as trying to deal with chemical weapons. If the chemical weapons thing gets dragged out, it is fine. Like I said before, they won’t be used while negotiations are ongoing. If they are used, approval for action will come quickly.

  202. 202.

    Mandalay

    September 9, 2013 at 11:44 pm

    @jl:

    …so I think Russia is trying to find a way forward with the current regime, but I don’t see how Assad is necessary himself.

    Yes, the ideal solution from Russia’s perspective would be for Assad to spend more time with his family in Tehran, while his regime retains power, continues to buy arms from Putin, and continues to provide Tartus as a base to the Russian navy.

    OTOH, if Assad disappears I think the smart money would be on his regime collapsing. Then what?

  203. 203.

    Mandalay

    September 9, 2013 at 11:52 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You seem to be working under the assumption that the goal to be accomplished was military strikes.

    Even worse than that – I was (and still am) working under the assumption that the primary motivation was that Obama’s “red line” comments forced him to do something.

    Until Britain’s parliament told Cameron to go **** himself all the signs were that military intervention was imminent. The Administration certainly never proposed talking to Syria about disarming its CW.

    Regardless, the situation is certainly better than 24 hours ago.

  204. 204.

    lojasmo

    September 9, 2013 at 11:52 pm

    Remember the night that Obama took down trump while Seal Team Six took out Osama. This feels like that.

    I have always posited that bombs would not be lobbed. I’ll be happy when it turns out i was right.

  205. 205.

    ira-NY

    September 9, 2013 at 11:52 pm

    I almost feel sorry for Calamity Jane’s Firebaggers. They were just working up a good head of stupid.

  206. 206.

    jl

    September 9, 2013 at 11:53 pm

    @Mandalay:

    ” OTOH, if Assad disappears I think the smart money would be on his regime collapsing. Then what? ”

    I agree there. That is the problem.

    Edit: But, embalming the current mess in a solution of international monitoring and negotiations could be a good way forward for Russia (even if a lot if it is BS and killing continues but maybe only at a slower pace), since the regime may collapse anyway.

  207. 207.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    September 9, 2013 at 11:53 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You seem to be working under the assumption that the goal to be accomplished was military strikes. I see the goal as trying to deal with chemical weapons.

    It does seem as though the people who were convinced that the US’s protests about the use of chemical weapons were a mere excuse to get to the military strikes the US really wanted to do are the ones who are most puzzled by recent developments.

    If you start with the assumption that Obama and Kerry were telling the truth and the US really was upset by the chemical weapons use, the events of the past couple of days make a whole lot more sense since they allow us to get the chemical weapons out of Assad’s reach without requiring military strikes. The fact that the military strikes may not happen is what seems to be confusing people — But I thought Obama wanted military strikes? Why is he saying something different now?  When, of course he isn’t saying anything different at all — it’s just that he was never saying what they assumed he really meant in the first place.

  208. 208.

    Mandalay

    September 9, 2013 at 11:54 pm

    @lojasmo:

    This is all laid out in international law. Read up, you’ll spend a lot less time here asking pointless fucking questions

    Then provide a link to back up your assertion. I say you are full of shit.

  209. 209.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 9, 2013 at 11:59 pm

    @Mandalay:

    Even worse than that – I was (and still am) working under the assumption that the primary motivation was that Obama’s “red line” comments forced him to do something.

    What is happening now is something. It appears that multilateral negotiations have been going on since the chemical attacks. Those are something. Something doesn’t have to be a military attack. I am very pleased about these developments since I think the use of chemical weapons is a violation of international norms that warrants a response and I did not think that there was an effective and proportional military response available. If this comes off, it is fantastic.

  210. 210.

    LiberalTarian

    September 10, 2013 at 12:01 am

    @Mandalay:

    OTOH, if Assad disappears I think the smart money would be on his regime collapsing. Then what?

    Seems likely that between Russia and Iran there will always be another Assad-type character ready and able to play strong man. Assad is a touch clumsy, after all, what with all the refugees and everything. Although certainly his belligerence is netting a tidy profit for arms dealers. And turning Russia into the peacemaker paints a nice, if reptilian, portrait of Putin.

    GW Assad? After all, he inherited his office from his father, right?

  211. 211.

    jl

    September 10, 2013 at 12:02 am

    @Mandalay:

    “The Administration certainly never proposed talking to Syria about disarming its CW”

    I don’t think of myself as an Obot, but I think he’s smart enough to know that proposing anything but blowing up stuff would cause too much ruckus among the GOP and our centrist warmongers to go smoothly.

    I have no idea how much of the diplomatic initiative was planned in detail or outline. But I think Obama knows he has to be careful about just cold proposing something sensible like that in public, in plain language.

  212. 212.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 12:03 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    What is happening now is something.

    It certainly is, but to be fair, Obama is only reacting to a proposal from Putin.

    If this comes off, it is fantastic.

    I agree completely. Disarming Assad of chemical weapons “peacefully” will be a massive win for the world.

  213. 213.

    Morbo

    September 10, 2013 at 12:04 am

    @Mandalay: Almost certainly true that the regime is done without Assad. I would imagine there would be massive army defections and power transfer to the FSA with the intent of reducing the amount of influence the jihadists could bring to bear. Just based on the maps that’s likely to work in the south and on the coasts, but the north would probably be pretty radicalized.

  214. 214.

    LiberalTarian

    September 10, 2013 at 12:05 am

    @lojasmo:

    This is all laid out in international law. Read up, you’ll spend a lot less time here asking pointless fucking questions, the answers to which are easily found on the internet.

    Yeah. Cuz international law, you know, forbids things like preemptive invasions and theft of poorer countries’ resources and all that stuff. And it really really works.

    Can I have a pony now?

  215. 215.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 10, 2013 at 12:09 am

    @Mandalay:

    It certainly is, but to be fair, Obama is only reacting to a proposal from Putin.

    The reports that have been coming out indicate that there have been discussions about something similar to this going on for a while now. More importantly, who the fuck cares if Putin first proposed it? If it was a good and workable idea, kudos to everyone involved for running with it.

    As a lawyer, if opposing counsel puts a settlement proposal on the table that leaves his client and my client in a better position, would I not be an idiot for spurning it because it came from him?

  216. 216.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 12:11 am

    @LiberalTarian:

    Seems likely that between Russia and Iran there will always be another Assad-type character ready and able to play strong man.

    Not so sure about that. What are the precedents for a regime retaining control once a dictator flees?

    GW Assad?

    The kind of guy you wanna have a beer with?

  217. 217.

    Liquid

    September 10, 2013 at 12:11 am

    Bureaucratic intransigence is the glue that makes the world go round.

  218. 218.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 12:13 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Point taken – you are right.

  219. 219.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 10, 2013 at 12:17 am

    @LiberalTarian:

    Can I have a pony now?

    No. And unicorns are back ordered.

    @Mandalay: Cool.

  220. 220.

    lojasmo

    September 10, 2013 at 12:28 am

    @Mandalay:

    Don’t come back until you’ve done your homework

  221. 221.

    Sly

    September 10, 2013 at 12:30 am

    In what may be possible evidence of karma, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (of “you will abort that pregnancy or you won’t be granted the privilege of working in this sweatshop anymore” fame) is now complaining that pregnant women from China are “flooding” into the territory under its lenient immigration rules in order to take advantage of birthright citizenship.

    Good. Fuck ’em.

  222. 222.

    Ruckus

    September 10, 2013 at 12:31 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Your last graph reminds me of what a lawyer once told me.
    Any settlement with one side happy and one side unhappy is a bad settlement. Any settlement with both sides happy didn’t need lawyers to negotiate in the first place. Any settlement with both sides equally unhappy needed lawyers and was fair.

  223. 223.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 12:37 am

    @lojasmo: From your own link, Syria is shown as a state that has “neither signed nor acceded to the Chemical Weapons Convention”.

    So explain in your own words why Syria is obliged to be constrained by a convention that it has rejected. Be sure to explain how your argument binds Syria in international law, and cite the case precedents.

    You know nothing about the situation. You are an idiot.

  224. 224.

    Keith P

    September 10, 2013 at 12:39 am

    At last a third way! Way #1 – Obama doesn’t attach Syria, so GOP complains that Obama doesn’t attach, Way #2 – Obama supposedly will attach Syria, so GOP complains that Obama will attack & threatens impeachment, and Way #3 – Obama finds diplomatic way out with peaceful resolution, GOP praises Russian despot.

  225. 225.

    Morbo

    September 10, 2013 at 12:39 am

    @lojasmo: Curious if you read the last table on that page.

  226. 226.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 10, 2013 at 12:45 am

    @Mandalay: Syria signed the 1925 Geneva Protocol that prohibits the use of chemical weapons. The 1993 CWC is mostly about the destruction of existing weapons. So, Syria committed to not using them, but did not commit to destroying them.

  227. 227.

    Origuy

    September 10, 2013 at 12:51 am

    @lamh36: I replied to her, “Ask your father how diplomacy works. It doesn’t always happen out in public.”

  228. 228.

    Morbo

    September 10, 2013 at 12:51 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: One might point to that as evidence of how much such commitments mean to Assad.

  229. 229.

    Debbie(aussie)

    September 10, 2013 at 12:51 am

    @LiberalTarian: before you can has your pony- don’t forget torture?

  230. 230.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 12:53 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    So, Syria committed to not using them…

    Internally, in a domestic conflict?

  231. 231.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 10, 2013 at 12:55 am

    @Morbo: Well, I am of the opinion that the prohibition on chemical weapon use has passed beyond the requirement of treaties and has become a norm. Just like the prohibitions against torture. So, to me, the commitments don’t matter all that much.

  232. 232.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 12:56 am

    @Debbie(aussie): Completely OT: what’s the word on your new PM? He seems like an obnoxious doofus to me, but maybe you can persuade me otherwise.

  233. 233.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 10, 2013 at 12:56 am

    @Mandalay: The 1925 Protocol does not specify.

    ETA: Link to the text.

  234. 234.

    nastybrutishntall

    September 10, 2013 at 12:57 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: get up and get get, get down: 911 is a Porsche in your town.

  235. 235.

    Debbie(aussie)

    September 10, 2013 at 1:02 am

    @Mandalay: sorry no can do. He is far worse than an utter doofus. Here is an ad where his words have been used by those he was talking about. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pJTX0iWYX9A&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DpJTX0iWYX9A
    ETA the networks would not air this add because it might upset Murdoch (you know our King)

  236. 236.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 10, 2013 at 1:04 am

    @nastybrutishntall: Word.

  237. 237.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 1:06 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The 1925 Protocol does not specify.

    IANAL, and wikipedia is probably not necessarily the best source for rock solid legal information, but….

    The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol, is a treaty prohibiting the first use of chemical and biological weapons in international armed conflicts….

    Both Syrian government and oppositional forces are accused of using chemical weapons in 2013 during the Syrian civil war, though as any such use would be within Syria’s own borders, rather than in warfare between state parties to the protocol, the legal situation is less certain

    I noticed that the Administration was repeatedly claiming that Syria had broken “international law” by using chemical weapons, and then they abruptly stopped. I am guessing that the WH lawyers read the fine print and told them to STFU with that argument.

  238. 238.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 10, 2013 at 1:10 am

    @Mandalay: As on most things legal, opinions differ.

    Note this from your link: In recent times the protocol has been interpreted to cover internal conflicts as well international ones. In 1995 an appellate chamber in the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia stated that “there had undisputedly emerged a general consensus in the international community on the principle that the use of chemical weapons is also prohibited in internal armed conflicts.” In 2005 the International Committee of the Red Cross concluded that customary international law includes a ban on the use of chemical weapons in internal as well as international conflicts

  239. 239.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 1:13 am

    @Debbie(aussie): Ugh! I remember when Julia Gillard eviscerated him for misogyny…that was awesome. I’m sorry she’s gone; she really seemed like a decent human being, but I guess that is a liability if you are a politician.

  240. 240.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 1:20 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Right. And I guess that the ICT’s “general consensus” argument bolsters the Administration’s “violation of international norms” line.

    But I still see nothing to show that Syria has blatantly violated any international law. I am obviously not condoning what Assad (allegedly) did, but it is not very satisfying that there does not seem to be any firm legal basis for nailing him to the wall.

    Maybe the situation will be a catalyst for better law.

  241. 241.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 10, 2013 at 1:24 am

    @Mandalay: International norms = international law. Just like treaties = international law. Think of it this way, norms are the equivalent of international common law. Treaties are the equivalent of international statutory law. The end result is that a violation of international norms is a violation of international law.

  242. 242.

    FlipYrWhig

    September 10, 2013 at 1:35 am

    @Mandalay:

    The Administration certainly never proposed talking to Syria about disarming its CW

    Meet with our enemies? With no preconditions? :P

  243. 243.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 1:37 am

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Meet with our enemies? With no preconditions?

    We shamelessly do it with the Taliban in Afghanistan, under far greater provocation.

  244. 244.

    AxelFoley

    September 10, 2013 at 1:38 am

    @ruemara:

    Luckily, I’d have to go to the store to purchase a fuck to give.

    So stealing this line.

  245. 245.

    Mandalay

    September 10, 2013 at 1:45 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    International norms = international law

    Yes, we keep going down this path, but it entails cherry picking the norms violations that offend us, rather than dogmatically citing some specific law/convention/treaty violation. Syria could easily find a norm or two that we (or Israel) violate, and I won’t be in the least surprised if that is exactly what Assad (or Russia or Iran) does once the negotiating begins. It will muddy the waters nicely for them. It will be a real hoot if Assad goes after us for torture. Nuclear weapons should do the trick for kicking Israel.

  246. 246.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 10, 2013 at 1:52 am

    @Mandalay: Sure, violations of international law are one thing. Being able to do more than fuck all about it is another. Waterboarding and the fucking invasion of Iraq in 2003 were violations of international law. It doesn’t mean that the world should let Assad get away with things. Also, the fact that waterboarding and the 2003 Iraq invasion were violations of international law are reasons that people like Cheney and Yoo are very careful about where their flights go if they ever venture overseas.

  247. 247.

    ranger3

    September 10, 2013 at 2:45 am

    What a fucking ripoff. I thought we were gonna get to see some war on the Tee Vee. This president sucks.

  248. 248.

    Emerald

    September 10, 2013 at 3:03 am

    @askew: Usually. But there was a The President is Smarter than Me diary that hit the top of the wreck list.

    This is the second one defending POTUS that has hit the top of the list, which says to me that plenty of us Bots are still there–we just know when and when not to comment.

    My comment has 48 recs so far.

  249. 249.

    A Humble Lurker

    September 10, 2013 at 3:30 am

    @Mandalay:

    It certainly is, but to be fair, Obama is only reacting to a proposal from Putin Kerry.

    FTFY…? Or did I not? Wasn’t that something being argued about earlier?

  250. 250.

    MomSense

    September 10, 2013 at 7:06 am

    @Jeremy:

    This.

  251. 251.

    Marc

    September 10, 2013 at 7:25 am

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    If you start with the assumption that Obama and Kerry were telling the truth and the US really was upset by the chemical weapons use, the events of the past couple of days make a whole lot more sense

    Obama confounds people across the political spectrum with his nasty habit of saying exactly what he means and doing what he says.

  252. 252.

    IowaOldLady

    September 10, 2013 at 8:07 am

    I’m slow but finally I see it. Obama was building up to announcing we were bombing and then, to everyone’s shock, he says he’ll send it to Congress. Thus buying time. With the bonus of keeping Congress busy and less likely to make trouble.

  253. 253.

    gogol's wife

    September 10, 2013 at 8:16 am

    @Jeremy:

    Right on.

  254. 254.

    different-church-lady

    September 10, 2013 at 8:39 am

    @Mandalay:

    …but to be fair, Obama is only reacting to a proposal from Putin.

    To be fair, isn’t reacting to things like that his whole fucking job?

  255. 255.

    cleek

    September 10, 2013 at 9:23 am

    @joes527:
    the BBC morning show just had some shrieking idiot American on, complaining that Obama and the US is the worst ever and the fact that we had to be “rescued” from our own folly by Putin proves it.

  256. 256.

    Emma

    September 10, 2013 at 9:38 am

    @different-church-lady: Not to mention that IT HAS BEEN REPEATEDLY STATED that conversations have been going on through back channels while the usual suspects posture in front of the camera.

    Again, as mentioned before, there are people who will not WILL NOT give Obama any credit for anything. I used to think it was disguised racism. I now believe it’s just the old liberal “everyone on my side is impure and imperfect and I can’t accept anything but the White Wizards”.

  257. 257.

    Ben Cisco

    September 10, 2013 at 9:48 am

    @different-church-lady: @Ben Cisco: Also, THIS.

  258. 258.

    Ruckus

    September 10, 2013 at 10:09 am

    @ruemara:
    There’s a “Give a Fuck” store?

    I need to find one of those.

  259. 259.

    chopper

    September 10, 2013 at 10:34 am

    @Ruckus:

    i know. i’ve been out of ‘giving fucks’ for years. the stores out here have shits for giving, but i’m a fuck-giving man.

  260. 260.

    chopper

    September 10, 2013 at 10:38 am

    @Emma:

    i figured liberals on the internet would trip over themselves to come up with some narrative that makes obama the war mongering dimwitted asshole and putin the white knight of peace, i just didn’t think they’d do it with such speed.

    these people were so seriously damaged by the 2000’s that they’ve started having delusions. it’s like that scene in being john malkovich, only everybody is going to look like george bush to them.

  261. 261.

    Emma

    September 10, 2013 at 10:44 am

    @chopper: It’s been a hell of a trip. Now it seems that I am supposed to turn an ex-KGB pseudo-Tsar into a hero because we can’t ever, ever assume, in spite of the evidence, that the mild-mannered black guy is actually competent at what he does.

  262. 262.

    El Cid

    September 10, 2013 at 10:45 am

    If this possibility (int’l supervision of Syrian CW’s & maybe even destruction) arose under Bush Jr., there would be no consideration of it whatsoever. There would simply be snotty dismissals from the Administration and a quicker build-up to whatever war they felt they could get out of it.

  263. 263.

    MomSense

    September 10, 2013 at 10:56 am

    @Emma:

    Plus if we had any decent coverage in this country, more people would know that right after the attacks Putin made statements saying they had proof it was the rebels, then (when presented with some of our intelligence) his public statements were that there is no proof that chemical weapons were used. He has been all over the map on this.

    The bottom line is that Kerry and others have been working on a diplomatic solution this whole time. And this is by no means a done deal. Even if the terms of the deal are finalized, verification is a bitch.

  264. 264.

    El Cid

    September 10, 2013 at 11:01 am

    By the way, if this goes through, though, the next time a ‘crisis point’ arises from the foreign poicy establishment point of view, there will be no more reticence to attack due to Syria’s possession of CW.

    I think Assad is as positive toward this initiative as he is because he fundamentally doesn’t trust his degree of control over his own military to prevent CW’s from being used in the field. They can’t be left in ordinary fixed storage because there’s too much danger of some sort of anti-regime forces obtaining them.

    And of course if it is the case that Assad himself cannot prevent his own commanders from using CW’s he cannot admit that. This would truly expose him as a weakened leader.

    This McClatchy report following up on reports of German intelligence seems to back the CW attack as perpetrated by Syrian regime forces but against the wishes of Assad. (I get that commanders in the field would have every likelihood to fear their future either from a loss to opposing forces or from their own regime, thus it is really, really dangerous to have those forces carrying about CW’s.)

    BERLIN — Syrian President Bashar Assad has repeatedly rejected requests from his field commanders for approval to use chemical weapons, according to a report this weekend in a German newspaper.

    The report in Bild am Sonntag, which is a widely read and influential national Sunday newspaper, reported that the head of the German Foreign Intelligence agency, Gerhard Schindler, last week told a select group of German lawmakers that intercepted communications had convinced German intelligence officials that Assad did not order or approve what is believed to be a sarin gas attack on Aug. 21 that killed hundreds of people in Damascus’ eastern suburbs.

    The Obama administration has blamed the attack on Assad. The evidence against Assad was described over the weekend as common sense by White House Chief of Staff Denis McDonough on CNN’s “State of the Union.”…

    This is an unfortunate conjunction, maybe, in which Assad’s personal interest in attempting to remain control of his own regime matches Syrian civilian and regional civilian interests — along with international diplomatic interests — against Syrian forces having access to CW.

    It’s not impossible that someone like Assad might not feel in the position of caring more about retaining power (including both keeping it from opposing forces as well as internal rivalries) than any potential international ramifications of using CW’s. (No, he doesn’t give a shit about killing Syrian civilians.)

    But the report above makes more sense, particularly in Assad’s apparent willingness to express interest in an offer to surrender CW’s to international control — it keeps the CW’s out of the hands of both any rebelling forces as well as from his own forces which are too likely to use them. I think his interest in the deal might indicate the lack of control he feels he has of them.

  265. 265.

    MomSense

    September 10, 2013 at 11:06 am

    @Ruckus:

    Hope it is a BIG BOX store!

  266. 266.

    Emma

    September 10, 2013 at 11:25 am

    @MomSense: Yeah, the Devil is always in the details. But so far it seems that Assad might be willing to go for it if, as some of the news reports out of Europe have it, the chemical weapons were used without his knowledge or approval.

    We shall see what we shall see.

  267. 267.

    FlipYrWhig

    September 10, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    @Mandalay: yes, I know. It was supposed to be a callback to one of the dumber episodes from the 2008 campaign, where McCain wanted to make hay out of poor naive Obama’s willingness to negotiate with evil people.

  268. 268.

    Ruckus

    September 10, 2013 at 9:21 pm

    @MomSense:
    I was going to go 2 places with that but I’ll settle for one.

    Are you saying we need to purchase “Give a Fucks” by the pallet load? Not a bad idea. One should always have at least a half dozen “Give a Fucks” on hand.

  269. 269.

    John M. Burt

    September 12, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    @MikeJ: “Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are soggy and hard to light.”

    That’s why you have to pile so much wood under them.

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