I have become fearful of the possibility that libertarianism may be on the rise. Let me explain. There are generally two types of libertarians: CEO-types (e.g. the Koch brothers) and basement dwellers who rock out to Rush (e.g. the staff of Reason magazine). Generally speaking, the latter group has not been economically or socially successful enough to have much of an impact on society, but technology may change all that. I’ve touched on the libertarian tech-world connection before, and many of your disagreed with me, but I present you with Pax Dickinson, glibertarian extraordinaire, and his new ephemeral photo sharing app with state-of-the-art cryptography. I know the singular of “data” is not “evidence” but you’ll enjoy laughing at this idiot anyway.
The liberal group Demos has begun a new initiative aimed at combatting the “myths and distortions” of glibertarianism. And the Fonz has responded, saying if both sides (apparently, Chris Christie said something mean about them a few months ago) are criticizing liberatarians, then they must be doing something right.
Here’s my question: is it worth monitoring libertarians and mocking them as needed?
Gin & Tonic
No.
aimai
Is it worth it? It is an end in itself. None of your goddamned utilitarianism for me. Truth is beauty, and beauty truth. That is all ye know and all ye need to know. Go forth and snark.
Mike E
Monitor libertarians? You mean, they don’t corner you and babble incessantly about their bullshit? Getting away from them, now that’s a fucking plan.
Baud
WTF have we been doing until now?
Spaghetti Lee
Jeez, Rush did 2112 almost 40 years ago and that’s still all people think about. Listen to Presto or Power Windows and then tell me they’re the big objectivist band.
Anyway, I think a lot of 20somethings have libertarian sympathies because (to put it very simply) we have a universe of knowledge and information available at the push of a button, so who needs the dumb ol’ government anyway? I think the best way to reach people like that is point out what the first kind of libertarianism has done to job market, especially for young people without family connections. Sad to say, but it seems a lot of people these days don’t see ‘society’ as an abstract good, because they’ve been taught not to for 30 years now.
Elizabelle
Libertarians — maybe 70 % of them — are Republicans who refuse to identify that way.
“Glibertarians” gets it right, too. People whom life has not hit, hard, in the face yet.
People who feel they and they alone control their possibilities and destiny. If others cannot — slackers!
scav
Well, if getting noticed and swatted at are sufficient signs of doing something right, then mosquitos are clearly mensa level overlords of the known and parallel universes.
Kropadope
@Mike E: Agreed, there’s no need to monitor them. They are extremely outspoken and manage to congregate together so they can echo each other.
Spaghetti Lee
As for Fonzi in particular, him I don’t worry about. He’s not what you’d call a charismatic spokesman for the cause.
Not Adding Much To The Community
An old acquaintance of mine fits the “Rocking out to Rush” stereotype too well. Votes Republican, calls himself a libertarian, Rush is his favorite rock band. Despite the fact that he’s held a state job for the last 20 years, he gets offended if you insinuate he might be out of touch in discussions about the minimum wage.
fka AWS
Hell to the yes. Fucking Atlas Shrugged Paultard bullshit is everywhere, and needs to be squashed like the two-bit political philosophy it is.
fuckwit
Yes, I think it’s a problem, and is endemic on the internet (go get some Bitcoin and head over to Reddit!) but I also think it’s a flash in the pan too and has within itself the seeds of its own destruction.
Glibertarianism is largely prerogative of the uniquely privileged: mostly white, educated, healthy, young, straight, childless, unmarried, middle-class or rich men.
Glibertarianism works when you have the world by the balls and nothing can touch you. Once you get knocked down a few pegs– by age, by responsibilties, by illness, by marriage-and-children, by poverty, by mortality, by REALITY– you realize that Galt is bullshit and we’re all in this together and no man is an island.
I’ve always been a loner by nature, and of the punk generation so ANARCHY! appealed to me from my earliest teenage years. But being a young, white, single, straight, college-educated, middle-class, unmarried, childless man with a six-figure tech job in Silicon Valley and stock options and the world by the balls in the 1990s made me an insufferable glibertarian.
It was hard for me to let go of glibertarianism. But it happened.
I have come to the conclusion that Glibertarianism is largely a disease of the privileged.
Mike E
@Spaghetti Lee: I saw their Grace Under Pressure Tour when I was 20. I felt old; many of the boys in the audience didn’t look older than 16.
I wonder how many went on to worship Rush Limbaugh.
Liberty60
@fka AWS: Yes-
Libertarians are having a tremendous impact on the GOP; It provides the perfect nihilistic underpinnings for both the Wall Street types and the rabid ethnic tribes.
JPL
Are we talking about libertarians or republicans? They have become one and the same.
El Cid
Better you than me.
JMG
Mocking is always worthwhile, no matter who.
PsiFighter37
I thought we were already mocking them. Even so, there’s too many people to mock already…we might need more server capacity if that’s the case.
And maybe a bigger section of that part of the blogroll?
Baud
@fuckwit:
Large libertarian hive there, but lately it seems like they’ve been getting some push back from other commenters because their so out there.
reflectionephemeral
No. Or, if yes, only for entertainment purposes.
The GOP doesn’t have control of the White House, so they adopt some libertariany talking points. But they did that in the 1990s, too; I don’t recall the presidency of Bush Jr. being especially libertarian. No Republican voters cared.
Plus, few identify as libertarians, and despite the new marketing campaign about “libertarian populism”, libartarianism cannot produce a popular program.
trollhattan
Know quite a few folks who are embarrassed to be Republicans, so I guess to distance themselves from the Republican Party while remaining Republican, they call themselves “libertarian Republican.” Seems like a meaningless gesture to me but maybe it helps them sleep.
Spaghetti Lee
@fuckwit:
Makes me wonder why I didn’t fall for it in my teenage years. I fit pretty much all those descriptors, and I’m a loner by nature too. To a neutral observer I’d be a perfect target for Randian gospel.
My early-teen-years, blow-my-mind, holy-shit-I-have-to-change-the-world-after-hearing-this authors were Kalle Lasn and Naomi Klein, both with a touch of anarchist, but quite clearly lefties through and through. I owe them both a lot of thanks for steering me down the path of righteousness.
Villago Delenda Est
Glibertarians need to be kicked to the curb and stomped on. Repeatedly. Forever.
Waldo
Why mock when you can let their penchant for self-parody do the work for you?
fka AWS
@Spaghetti Lee:
I got the anarchist bit from my punk rock/hardcore wild days, but it was more the commune-style of Crass and the like. But Atlas Shrugged was not on anyone’s reading list back then, and Rush was just something the weed fiends listened to when their Pink Floyd albums wore out.
Chris
@Elizabelle:
This. What’s “necessary” is to stop treating libertarianism as if it were a genuine, distinct “third way” totally different from regular conservatism. It’s just a makeover term for Republicans who are embarrassed or want to be hip.
JGabriel
DougJ @ Top:
Of course it’s worth it — any excuse for a good laugh is worth it.
I mean, it’s not worth it by any other, any very serious, criteria, but I think comedy is enough justification in its own right.
raven
“Throughout Monday’s news coverage of the tragic mass shooting at the Washington Navy Yard, one key source of information has been Dr. Janis Orlowski, the chief medical officer/chief operating officer for MedStar Washington Hospital Center.
As it turns out, she resigned earlier Monday morning, effective in one month.”
MattR
@Spaghetti Lee: I am in the same boat. Read a lot of Heinlein. Listened to a lot of Rush. But I also innately understood that while the freedoms of libertarianism might sound good in theory, humanity is too selfish and greedy to allow it to work in practice. I also seemed to come out of it with the understanding that corporations can do as much, or more, to restrict freedom as governments.
Scotius
I’ll be interested to see how things turn out for Pax Dickinson. He strikes me as someone who got to where he was through luck and connections and managed to convince himself that it was through his skill and brilliance. If his Twitter posts are anything to go by, he has always been a lawsuit waiting to happen and any company would be have to be insane to put him in any kind of senior position where he interacts with other employees. Let’s see how many job offers he gets now that any Google search will reveal what a sexist, racist homophobic arrogant asshole he’s always been.
Felonius Monk
Monitor them? No. But it is certainly okay to occasionally shit in their hat.
Thoughtful David
@Waldo: What Waldo said.
I actually have never met, nor even heard of, a real libertarian. Oh, some say they’re libertarians. And maybe they are today. But tomorrow, or whenever they need something from society–whoops! out goes the “libertarianism” every single time.
And they do tend to jump the shark pretty readily, and provide good entertainment.
geg6
@Scotius:
This. Read about him the other day. A dick of gargantuan proportions.
mericafukyea
Resident ball-juice concern troll is not only concerned, he is downright “fearful of the possibility that libertarianism may be on the rise”. LMAO…thanks for the belly laugh.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Russert et al love(d) to flog that one– if everybody thinks I’m stupid and incompetent, so I’m doing a crackerjack job!
I stumbled across a column of Das Fonzie of Freiheit the other day, complaining about Michelle Obama’s “constant nagging” about nutrition, and offered as an example that carrot sticks were served (or something) at the WH Easter Egg Roll. In 2010. So, you know, constant. I think that was also a “both sides do it” column about authoritarianism in the two parties. It was not otherwise memorable.
Also, too, I tend to think Christie is their strongest horse in 2016, and the plebs will fall in line as TeeVee commercials about Hitlery tell them to, but the Paultards do carry a grudge, and I wouldn’t be shocked at a write-in-Rand! campaign
Baud
When did this become a valid argument?
ETA: Dammit, Jim.
Chyron HR
@Spaghetti Lee:
To be fair, if I were in the band I’d rather be remembered for 2112 than their later stuff.
(I’d rather be remembered for Caress of Steel than their later stuff.)
Mike E
@reflectionephemeral:
Fix’t.
Any idea is as good as any other.
Punchy
Doug….your posts have become so cryptic and wonkish that they’ve begun to suck. No offense, but cant we just stick to football and McMocking Mcaddled?
rikyrah
Libertarians do not live in the real world.
nellcote
As long as you take them on from the right AND the left.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
If white privilege wasn’t becoming a minority, I would say that would be something to be fearful about.
Baud
FTA:
So it’s now possible to take a tweet out of context. Just let that sink in for a minute.
kc
@Villago Delenda Est:
I think pointing and laughing would be more effective. They hate that.
kuvasz
Gee, George Bush had amazing powers; he could change solid Republicans into Libertarians.
Baud
FTA:
Dear NSA, I will pay you good money to do this.
kc
@Scotius:
One site (I forget which now) had a collection of asshole-ish tweets from Dickinson going back three years. I don’t know how long he was at Business Insider, but he’s been doing this for a long time.
BruinKid
Yes, Doug, yes. I know from firsthand experience dealing with the Ron Paul crowd, that they’re growing in numbers, unfortunately.
raven
Rachel is saying the dude shot the security guard and took the guards guns from the guard shack.
Alexandra
Libertarianism has an obvious, simplistic and dangerous appeal because it’s a corollary to social liberalism — the mark of our age — which is why the hardcore purists still refer to themselves as classical liberals… and the accepted current economic ideology as neoliberalism.
This is why it needs careful watching. Takes some skill to succinctly argue for personal social freedoms, yet also argue for government involvement in other spheres e.g. economic, medical and so on.
Scotius
@kc:
It was Valleywag. I read through them. I can’t believe it never occurred to anyone at Business Insider to read them too. Or maybe they just didn’t care until word got out and he became a liability. I definitely plan on keeping tabs on this guy. I want to see how far he can go as a pure unadulterated asshole now that he is damaged goods. I’m hoping not very far as I suspect that he isn’t half as smart and talented as he thinks he is.
Lancelot Link
Does that mean people here can stop taking everything that lying asshole Greenwald says as gospel?
BruinKid
Here’s another example of a libertarian ranting about the D.C. shooting today. Mixture of unhinged rant mixed with Alex Jones conspiracies.
ellennelle
my answer to your question is no; ignore them, they’ll vanish.
which leads to my question re: your speculation on libertarians rising:
what tipped you off? the raging success of the atlas shrugged films?
ranchandsyrup
Great title DougJ. Who would allow Fonzie to take her lace?
I say yes. Unchecked they would slide right into The Third Way(TM) slot. Glibertarianism is already a safe harbor for embarrassed GOPers. Keep them talking and their masks will slip.
Chris
@MattR:
Amazing how much that sounds like the Marxism-Leninism of the 20th century.
For me, it was realizing that all the stuff that libertarians supposedly care about that’s supposed to make them attractive to non-conservatives was just smoke and mirrors. No, they don’t actually care about social issues/civil rights – they may not care if you’re gay or have had an abortion, but they’re not about to put your right to these things on their agenda either. In fact, they think it’s a waste of government resources to protect your right to these things… and the same for the rights won by the previous generation of civil rights activists. The only “government overreach” they care about is 1) when it impacts the 1%’s ability to do as they please, and 2) the conspiratorial fantasies of middle class white suburbanites who thought X-Files was a documentary.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Alexandra: That’s one of the things that gets me– are there any prominent libertartians who are pro-choice ? The elected self-styled libertarians– the Pauls, Paul Ryan, Kasich, Amash (?)– are all “pro-life”, AFAIK.
PIGL
@Chyron HR: Also, to be fair, 40 years ago, they were in their 20s or whatevs, and to dabble at that tender age with that ponderous Rasputinoid charlatan is somewhat forgivable. What I can’t forgive them for is their prog rock pretension. Thank god for Patti Smith, The Clash, and even The Ramones.
PIGL
@rikyrah:
FIFY.
And I for one am prepared to oblige.
ruemara
Yes. They have no real ideas and they’re full of shit-yet people take them seriously anyway. Mock as much as humanly possible.
Linnaeus
@Chris:
Exactly. Conservatarianism/propetarianism uses civil rights as a hook (that it stole from liberalism) to pull folks in, but in the end, what it’s about is concentration of property and power into the hands of a relative few under the guise of “liberty”.
kc
@Scotius:
Found it; there’s more here: http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/60816588132/full-time-sexist-misogynistic-libertarian-jerk-has
The further down you scroll, the worse they get.
Chris
@Alexandra:
Except, once you get past the surface, it’s not.
When was the last time Ron Paul, Rand Paul, or any libertarian of note agitated for gay rights or abortion rights? They’re “socially liberal” in the sense that they don’t care about gays or women (one way or another), and if actual liberals manage to make society safe for these two, they won’t think it’s the end of the world.* But all of the actual work will be left to liberals. They best we can hope for from them is acquiescence after the fact.
* Although you can count on them to talk seriously about how uncivil we were in passing these laws, and how there are troubling constitutional aspects to how we passed them… etc.
Keith P
If they’ve got a shtick/costume (aka Fonz), then yeah, they should be mocked. Normal people who aren’t playing a character typically don’t wear the same thing for every public appearance (see: Carlson, Tucker….Corgan, Billy)
Baud
So what actual damage would libertarians do that normal Republicans aren’t already trying to do 24/7?
cckids
@Elizabelle:
Oy, this. My (much younger) Brother in law, is the poster child for glibertarianistas. He comes from small-town big money; each child or grandchild gets 2 lots of land when born – one to build a house on, one for a business or to rent/sell. College paid for. They are expected to work, but the family owns 5-6 businesses in the small town, so . . . getting a job is not exactly a challenge.
He’s very bright, an engineer (doesn’t work for The Family anymore), but just CANNOT see the world from anyone elses viewpoint. His family’s money is the floor he stands on, and he does. not. get. it. LOVES Ron Paul.
His redeeming qualities are that he mainly keeps his politics to himself, and he’s a fabulous dad to my nephews. So there’s that.
Joe Buck
Libertarians are sometimes right about some things, but many of them seem to fantasize about being a feudal lord. I care about liberty, but if there are no barriers to the accumulation of vast wealth we’ll wind up with a few hundred lords and the rest of us will be serfs.
ACLU-style libertarianism: yes. Randroid-style property-trumps-everything libertarianism: hell no.
fka AWS
@Scotius:
The site is run by Henry Blodget, who has fewer qualms than you or I:
Chris
@cckids:
Christ! I take it the Boss Hogg/Mister Potter small town model is still a thing in some parts, then?
The Raven on the Hill
Oh, heavens, yes. Look up cypherpunks and crypto-anarchism. Tim May, Eric Hughes, those guys. Neal Stephenson’s The Diamond Age is grounded in crypto-anarchism, among other things. It’s where, for instance, Assange comes from, and why he thinks Rand Paul is cool. (But Assange is much to the left of his sources.) It’s where Bitcoin, the troll’s gold of the information age, comes from.
Do the homework; there’s lots there.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Coulter, Ann; Wolfe, Tom. Christopher Hitchens’ studied sloven.
Spaghetti Lee
@PIGL:
Them’s fightin’ words. Punk is the most pretentious goddamn genre of all time. It’s like a giant ivory tower of hipsters who turn up their noses at anything that doesn’t meet their standards of carefully constructed primitivism. And the music is so boring. Same themes, same instruments, same length, same chords, most of the time. I hate Margaret Thatcher too, but there’s only so many ways you can say that before it gets a little repetitive.
rikyrah
Aren’t we really talking about White Males, here?
Because I don’t see non-White people flocking to libertarianism,
anymore than I see women..
Because for all the talk of ‘freedom’
Libertarians can’t seem to be bothered with the basic Civil Rights of non-White folks..
drones they care about…
Stop and Frisk not so much…
Edward Snowden is a hero….
But, they can’t be bothered to talk about cases like Troy Davis…
and, for all their talk of ‘ freedom’
a whole lot of libertarians want up in my uterus…. …the head being the libertarian hero Rand Paul.
Libertarians don’t seem to be able to stand up for workers…..
That we serfs should be happy for whatever the business overlords give us…..
Like I said…this shyt appeals to White Males primarily
the rest of us know it’s unicorn-based fantasy
Mike E
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
No.
Alexandra
@Chris:
Well, exactly. Which is why American libertarianism, as seen from Europe, is little more than right-wing fundamentalism. But my point is that it bears keeping a close eye on, precisely because of its tidy superficial appeal and simplistic appeal. Moar freedom, in other words… which is easy to argue for in some spheres, so it’s equally easy for polemicists to argue for its extension into others.
Spaghetti Lee
@Chyron HR:
I actually prefer the later stuff. I don’t know why everyone seems to hate it. I actually think 2112 is pretty crappy-the title song and the filler. But I’d stick up for their 1983-1995 output against anything.
Anoniminous
Obligatory:
(h/t to Kung Fu Monkey)
And Atlas Shrugged Part 2.
Jewish Steel
Whither ED Kain?
Redshirt
The day I first realized I could destroy the world is also the day I discovered I was an EmoProg.
nineone
Fuck ’em. They are Republicans no matter what they may say. Motherfuckers voted for Bush – FUCKIN’ BUSH!!! – Nuke ’em from orbit, I say. Even then there may not be enough fire to forever rid ourselves of them, the stupid servile fucks.
Libertaians, Ha! They’ll have to change it to something else when the current scam goes awry in 5,4,3,2,1….
El Caganer
@rikyrah: True. McMegan is the only female libertarian I can think of, and I really can’t think of any libertarian POC (maybe Larry Elder?).
Roxy
OT: Costa Concordia is uprighted. You can see it here
You can see the water line. Human ingenuity at its best
Scotius
@kc:
Wow, some of those are even worse than the ones i saw at Valleywag. What woman, gay or minority would want to work under him?
Spaghetti Lee
@El Caganer:
There’s Katherine Mangu-Ward, who’s kind of like a mini-McArdle, and Virginia Postrel, who’s been at it a while and is somehow even more insufferable. There’s probably more, but those are the ones I can think of right now.
Eric U.
if the libertarians and the anarchists had a softball game, I figure the anarchists would definitely win because they’re all undercover cops.
A libertarian that votes for republicans is a racist dimwit that is impressed with their own intelligence, I think that’s been pretty well established by now.
BruinKid
Alex Jones is already calling the D.C. shooting a false flag operation. Who cares? Well, a frequent guest on his radio show happens to be one Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), and he may very well win the GOP presidential nomination in 2016.
Jewish Steel
Once upon a time at least one little pipsqueak from LoOG would show up and joust for his fair lady liberty. Where are they now?
Maybe there aren’t as many as once there were after all. Still, I say keep the fires stoked at least until we get Alan Greenspan’s head on a pike.
Chris
@Alexandra:
Oh, fuck it. (WP just ate two attempts at a reply in a row). Short version – yes, I agree.
Redshirt
The Big Bang was a False Flag.
Roxy
@Anoniminous:
I never get tired of reading the difference between LOTR and Atlas. I was 20 when I read the LOTR and 23 when I read Atlas Shrugged. Loved the fantasy story, hated the Sci-Fi story.
Hobbits and Orcs rule!!!
sparrow
Personally I think the glibertarians are on the rise in the young. But these are just people who in a previous generation would have been asshole republicans (the IGMFY attitude is exactly the same).
I have lots of old college friends that identify as libertarian. That’s because the GOP is way too toxic for these people, especially on the religion and war front. Some are also genuinely tolerant of women and gays (though not as man as say they are). But ALL of them are upper-middle class to upper class kids who never really had to struggle. And all of them are white, and most are male. Gee who does that sound like.
cckids
@Chris: A bit. They don’t “run the town” by any means, but they were one of the first families to settle there & had the foresight to buy up LOTS of land when it was dirt cheap. They also had the first (and, for a while, only) casino/hotel in their little corner of NV. I don’t begrudge them any of this; they are nice people; their kids/grandkids work hard, don’t run around harassing people, or driving drunk & expect Grandpa’s name to get them out of problems.
They just have never, NEVER had to worry for a single day about money. And they just cannot see that it is due to their grandparent’s foresight & good luck, not that they themselves (the 2nd and 3rd generation) work so much harder than everyone else.
It is easier to get straight A’s in engineering when you aren’t working 25-40 hours on the side to live. It is easier to build your own house when Grandpa gave you the 2 acres, your family owns the local hardware store & you can buy supplies for cost, when your family also owns the local construction company & you can use all the equipment for free.
Now, he does know how to use all the equipment & he did the work himself, or with his dad/brothers, didn’t expect family workers to pitch in, etc. It’s why I can’t despise him; he’s a decent person, just has this HUGE blind spot when it comes to the family money.
cckids
Oh, FFS, when you live in Nevada, it is SO HARD to remember FYWP’s irrational hatred of our native industry. CA$INO. CA$INO. CA$INO!!!.
Dammit. Un-moderate me PLEASE.
PIGL
@Spaghetti Lee: I forgot The Mekons and The Soft Boys and Junior Gone Wild. And I will spot you King Crimson as a gesture of purest good will.
fka AWS
@cckids:
It’s not an irrational hatred. It’s spam blocking. Same thing for sh0es and c1alis.
Seriously, run a web site with comments some time and see how much spam shit gets posted. It’s fucking ridiculous.
Chris
@sparrow:
Yep, they sound like what I said earlier up at “libertarians are conservatives who are embarrassed or want to be hip.”
Libertarianism is the acceptable way to express your teenage rebellious phase (without, at the end of the day, actually challenging any aspect of the social order), and the refuge for conservatives who’re just aware enough that they can’t bring themselves to defend conservatism anymore, but also just can’t bring themselves to admit that the DFHs they’ve heaped abuse on for years on end were right all along.
Captain C
@Redshirt: For The Win!
Spaghetti Lee
@BruinKid:
If he does run and win the nomination, that would be worth harping on. Lots of people think of themselves as conservatives, but most don’t think of themselves as lunatics, and Alex Jones is one big goddamn lunatic. I imagine most voters will hear him for the first time and write him off immediately.
cckids
@fka AWS: I do know. It is just such a basic part of life here that WP gets me every time.
nineone
@PIGL: @Spaghetti Lee: It is quite possible to like both. I did for a bit, but I jump off at Hemispheres. My love for punk, in it’s many forms, continiues to this day.
Listened to “Grand Finale” from 2112 just the other day.
srv
Yes and Yes.
There are those of us who do the good work in the world and troll glibertarian sites like slashdot (mostly dead), reddit (certain subreddits), and news.ycombinator.com, where Peter Thiel is revered as the second coming. These people are being raped and oppressed every day by the NSA.
I would suggest mistermix and Doug join in on the fun, as there are many teens and college age kids who need to be mocked, but in a gentle and sophisticated way (I’ve been banhammered several times from reddit and ycomb as I am too brutish).
These are the thoughtleaders of the future – Young Crypto- Republicans With Computers And Ideology.
fka AWS
@Spaghetti Lee:
I’m afraid I can’t let this just lie there. Have you never heard of the goddamn Ramones? Punk wasn’t all “Maggie Thatcher Sucks.”
kc
@cckids:
Does he think he’s a self-made man?
browser
@Spaghetti Lee:
Spouting lunacy is a solid career path on the right. Besides, I think Rand is on the grift like his old man and knows when to tone it down. Ted Cruz, on the other hand, is a true believer and probably has even a better chance to be the nominee.
Spaghetti Lee
@fka AWS:
Yes, I know who the Ramones are. And I like some of their stuff, and the Clash for that matter. And I know I’m exaggerating: Watching my favorite bands and genres get shit on so much over the years by discerning listeners has made me twitchy and deranged.
I like the Ramones for the reasons I like AC/DC or hair metal-loud dumb singable fun. And I like the Clash to the extent that they started experimenting with their sound more and trying new things. A friend tried to turn me on to real hardcore punk, and it just left me cold. What can I say?
cckids
@kc: Jesus, of COURSE HE DOES.
Sorry to shout,but isn’t that the basis of glibertarianism? They are all self-made, the fact that they are also all born to privilege is lost to them.
Edit to add: Like I said above, the thing that makes him bearable as a family member is that he largely keeps his politics to himself. He grew up with parents that fought over everything, & divorced in a very ugly way before he was 10. Our low-key family dynamics were a complete revelation to him, we go too far the other way & NEVER argue! He doesn’t want to drag arguing, esp. over politics, into the family gatherings, so he (and I), just don’t go there when we are together.
I can respect that, or at least appreciate it. We all have a tacit agreement to just let. it. lie. Keeps it peaceful.
And, as I have mentioned, he is a great dad.
Spaghetti Lee
@browser:
It’s a solid career path on the right, for sure. Actually winning elections where people beside the right vote? Occasionally, but not as often.
browser
@Spaghetti Lee:
But when they do, it’s a doozy.
fka AWS
@Spaghetti Lee:
Fair enough. I can see how such an experience would cloud your judgement. I have to confess that my musical tastes have matured since I was 16 and LOUD FAST RULES! Of the punk founders, I’d say the Clash was The Band that really grew up.
Redshirt
R U Guilty ENUFF?
Answer 1, YES, 2, NO.
James E. Powell
@Spaghetti Lee:
Punk was no more pretentious than any other genre. Whenever anything new pops up, snobs claim it for their own and start slicing off the “true” from the “commercial.” It’s bullshit.
What was real and important and lasting about punk was the “get up there and play” attitude. Rock and roll had become too official, too serious, too business-like, too self-aware. It’s supposed to be fun. It’s supposed to make people comfortable. It’s supposed to make you want to hide your teenager. It’s not much more than that, really.
Eric U.
punk is what, 40 years old now? Hard to look at it now with the same perspective. It certainly was never meant to be classic music that stood the test of time. For many years, any music genre that started in the U.K. was probably performed by art school dropouts, so pretension is the norm.
I always thought of the Clash as being pretty late to the punk scene, but those distinctions fade over the decades.
The Moar You Know
Those Rush fans are running the entire Internet and its underpinnings. And most of them are fucking idiots.
I know. I’m one of them. Well, at least the Rush fan part, anyway. The libertarianism I knew was bullshit from day one, but that’s what happens when you grow up poor; you know bullshit and stupidity from the first time you hear it. Neil was an ignorant privileged motherfucker back in the day. I think he’s learned a few things, the really hard way, since 1976.
But few listen to Rush for the lyrics. It’s all about the musicianship. Those guys all just turned sixty and still rock harder than anyone out there.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@fka AWS:
Fixed for accuracy. The Band is a different thing entirely. Which is not to say I don’t like the Clash and the Ramones – I like them fine. But The Band is quite special to me. Showing my age.
Spaghetti Lee
@James E. Powell:
I’m probably more peeved about the mythos that’s grown up around it than the music or the musicians themselves. I know, on an intellectual level, that you shouldn’t judge any art by its attention-seeking hipper-than-thou hanger-ons: the music stands on its own and it can’t help who it attracts. But goddamn, the most insufferable music snobs I’ve ever met tend to be punk/hardcore snobs.
Punk being a needed antidote to 70’s bloat-rock is all history to me: I’ve grown up with as much punk/new wave nostalgia as hippie/classic rock nostalgia floating about.
trollhattan
@Roxy:
Holy crap that’s cool. Never imagined I’d ever see that thing upright.
trollhattan
@BruinKid:
Speaking of Herr Reichesmarshall Paul, there’s evidently a Republican party rift WRT how much and how often to bomb the Middle East, of which Paul isn’t necessarily on board. Because of this, one Ms. Ruben believes him to be unuseful.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2013/09/16/rand-paul-angers-jewish-and-christian-republicans/?hpid=z11
Awwwww, they’re so cute when they’re scrapping.
Cain
Thanks Doug, way to throw Rush fans under the bus. I can confirm that most of us fans are not fans of that bitch Ayn Rand. In fact I’m Craig that Neal himself is not a fan.
Spaghetti Lee
@trollhattan:
Logically speaking, there should be a lot of room for neo-isolationism in the modern GOP. Costs less, small government, less contact with icky foreigners, both allies and enemies, more time to focus on wearing silly hats and complaining about taxes.
The Republican Party pretended it was anti-war for about five minutes when war looked likely, then exploded into the familiar pattern of bloodlust and aggressive xenophobia. These guys are still neo-con Bushists at the core. They want Empire. They don’t care what it costs in money or lives. ‘Conservative’ my ass.
Chris
@trollhattan:
Run for president in 2016? More like run for vice-president. Especially if the presidential candidate is Christie, yet another person considered too moderate by the lunatic base, and who will want to offset that by picking a running mate who speaks teabagger. (It would fit right into the trend started by McCain/Palin and continued by Romney/Ryan).
James E. Powell
@Spaghetti Lee:
I’m probably more peeved about the mythos that’s grown up around it than the music or the musicians themselves.”
Well, I’m with you there. And I was a punk all the way. Not like I’m any kind of authority, but to me if one is writing about, analyzing, or thinking too much about punk, then one doesn’t really get the point.
trollhattan
@Spaghetti Lee:
A few folks recall with reasonable specificity one candidate Governor Bush while campaigning for president declaring America was not the world’s policeman and claiming to be uninterested in nation-building. Ah, those were the days.
I guess he could rightfully note ripping a nation or two apart isn’t technically “building.” Herr Reischsmarshall Paul will be similarly reformed should he ever be given the reins of power, believe me.
kc
@trollhattan:
Haha, I remember the “humble foreign policy” he promised.
trollhattan
@Chris:
At this point I think the Republicans will run some governor or other at the top of the ticket because they’ve got nobody who’s marketable right now. Cruz and Paul and Christie and Rubio simply can’t be packaged as a palatable option in time for ’16.
“Walker-Santorum ’16!”
Thefix
Yes. This is an under-discussed element of the Snowden/Greenwald affair: whatever our feelings about how they’ve exposed NSA secrets, at the core they did it because they fundamentally mistrust government in a way that’s not beneficial to progressive goals. In the long run, I think the Republican Party is going to recast itself as a libertarian party, playing up it’s nominally progressive goals (gay rights, drug legalization, anti-survellance) while otherwise being Ayn Rand incarnate. That’s a position that may win over a lot of young people (especially men), and it’s worth nipping in the bud.
cokane
libertarianism is definitely the conservativism of the future, in my opinion, as least in the American vernacular. Cultural conservatism is dying, there’s no denying it. Abortion will still hang on, but they are simply losing their other major issues. The kernels of future american conservatism are free guns and free markets. it will basically be soicalism vs libertarianism in the future, imho
? Martin
@rikyrah: Yes. Republicans at least bitch about there not being enough food on the table. Libertarians bitch about having to use the wrong fork to eat it.
Chris
So in the future, “libertarian” is going to be to “conservative” what “progressive” was to “liberal” after the Reagan revolution? The label they use because the original was became too toxic to wear in public? 1) That’s a way better summary of the difference between “libertarian” and “conservative” than when they try to pretend it’s two separate things and 2) nothing would please me more than to watch them have to hang their head in shame because their original beliefs have become so completely discredited.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
There are some songs from which you just should not poach for titling your posts.
Fucking, “You and the moonlight…,” is now running on a loop in my brain.
dww44
@raven: So, does that explain her extraordinary riffing on the evil of mass shootings in the country? I was watching on CNN at the time and when it became obvious that she was weighing in on the shootings, other than medically, Jake Tapper showed up and took her microphone away, so to speak. As if, in his opinion, she’d gone off the reservation of what a trauma doctor should talk about. Good for her. Maybe we do need more women busting through the glass ceilings everywhere.
@trollhattan: Cruz has come a long ways pretty darn fast and he’d be the first person to say he’ll be ready to assume the mantle in 2016. I agree with Chris Hayes that Cruz is very smart, very good on his feet, and extraordinarily dangerous.
trollhattan
@dww44:
Have to say I’m unconvinced Cruz is anything more than a highly motorized gaffe machine. If he’s “playin’ dumb” to placate Texans specifically and the Republican establishment generally, he’s a little too convincing. Aaaaand his voice is plain horrible, so are they planning on autotuning him?
i.e., By all means, run the asswad, Republicans.
Karmus
First you ignore them…
Well, who knows, really.
Citizen Alan
Or maybe, just maybe, that just means they’re so completely wrong that everyone else is in agreement about it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Linnaeus:
It’s essentially neo-feudalism. Which is why they should be kicked to the curb and stomped, repeatedly.
Radio One
I see young libertarians as people who haven’t decided yet if they’re really liberals or conservatives. I pretty much assume all older libertarians affiliated with the Libertarian Party are all of the outcasts from the Republican Party involved with gambling, prostitution, and real estate fraud.
Yatsuno
So…this post isn’t about Cole’s new furniture?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Yatsuno:It’s funny, if you look up “Fonzie of Freedom”, the first Google result points to Balloon Juice.
Yatsuno
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Holy shit. Just when I thought we couldn’t top skull fuck a kitten…
Ripley
@Yatsuno: Actually, I think it is.
PanurgeATL
@James E. Powell:
I’m not sure I get this. I mean, I’ve heard it most of my life, but what music are you talking about?? OK, progressive rock, obviously, but does that mean progressive rock should be obliterated from the face of the earth? Or do you mean arena-filling AOR of the Styx/Boston/Journey variety? That arose just a year or two before punk did. I can’t help but think that there was some fuzzy thinking on the punk side of the fence. Plenty of listeners knew something was wrong in 1977, but many of them were progressive rock listeners. I really think that the punk crowd pushing them away is a big part of what led lots of classic rock fans to start voting Republican, just out of spite. All needless–the punk crowd literally didn’t know who its friends were. (Of course, what’s funny is that when the extreme right wants to rock out, it usually plays punk.)
And “fun”? That was about the last thing I got from punk. Van Halen is fun. Aerosmith is fun. And it’s better music, too. You may not like it, but that’s different. “Aggression-fortified fun substitute” is more like it when it comes to punk. And of course it led to hardcore, which is essentially what happens when crewcut bullies steal the counterculture for themselves. Fuck ’em.
And in the end, we get a world where ALL music is as simple as possible–so simple it’s not fun any more. I mean, how much do you want? How far do you want to go with this?
jayackroyd
Yes.
jayackroyd
That may be. But they are certainly beneficial to liberal goals. Liberals don’t trust big government.
FonzieScheme
If you think the end-goal to punk is to be as simple as possible, you’re strawmaning as much as the punks who think that anything not punk = unlistenable bloat.
But don’t let me disabuse you of your notions, yinz.
Vanya
Yeah, leave Rush (the band) alone! They had already moved away from Randian libertarianism by the late 80s. “Big Money” may have banal lyrics, but they don’t reflect a libertarian sentiment. By all accounts these days the guys in the band are fairly bog-standard Canadian liberals (i.e. screaming socialists by American standards).
The Tragically Flip
I’m a “Yes” on the OP question. Not for the Fonzis in themselves, but because the Kock-type overlords love it so much and affirmatively push this crap on the populace.
If you think about the classic sort of 4 quadrant 2 dimension ideology graph, you have liberalism and conservativism in opposite corners, then most put libertarianism between them as the “socially liberal, economically conservative” section of the graph. What goes in the fourth quadrant?
The fact that you have to pause and think about that is really suggestive. The answer is usually “communitarianism” – but have you ever met more than a couple people who are economically liberal (pro-equality) and socially conservative? Do they have a bunch of think-tanks, major media spokespeople, and a national political party? No. The reason is that they’re equally a natural fringe ideology as libertarians, but they lack the support of the Koch set. They’re what libertarianism should naturally be – almost unheard of. Without the Kochs, Fonzi is an annoying comic store clerk, not a major media figure.
Bad ideology promoted by a powerful elite for its own ends must be resisted.
Jockey Full of Malbec
@fka AWS:
I find it more cost effective to just buy a bunch of used 45s from the 1950s and put the turntable up to 78.
(ducks).
Paul in KY
@Not Adding Much To The Community: My late cousin was a huge Rush fan & he voted Republican too. RIP Gary.
TooManyJens
@The Tragically Flip:
I was a little kid when Reagan was elected, so I’m going on secondhand reports, but weren’t these pretty much the Reagan Democrats? If so, then there at least used to be a lot of them. But we’ve had a generation of Republicans sucking people in with social conservatism and then beating Randian economics into them. I’m thinking “welfare queens” and the like here — playing on people’s social conservatism to convince them that social programs only benefit the supposedly unworthy at the expense of the hard-working, white Christians and that we’d have economic opportunity for all if only the government would get out of the way.
Paul in KY
@cckids: Why can’t he get it that he comes from some amount of wealth & that there are many people born poor as a snake & to much crappier parents than his?!
Paul in KY
@FonzieScheme: Punk is alot more complicated than what that person posted up above.
McJulie
@PanurgeATL: I graduated from high school in 1984. I still like punk rock. I still like new wave. I still hate Van Halen.
What can I say? I like 2.5 minute pop/rock songs that make me want to hop up and down.
The Tragically Flip
@TooManyJens:
Reagan was elected to stick it to welfare queens in the cadicallacs, so I’m not sure the Reagan Democrats qualify as economically liberal.
But in any case, people we could group as communitarian certainly exist, but their lack of any organized and prominent presence is an important dog-not-barking style clue: the masters-of-the-universe don’t need them.
TooManyJens
@The Tragically Flip:
Well, but that’s just it. Wasn’t that a demo that was basically pro-union, pro-social-programs, and anti-big corporate power before the GOP used racial resentment and other aspects of social conservatism to flip them? Or have I gotten an inaccurate impression of where Americans used to be on economic issues?
But it may not matter, since even if they existed, they did flip, and the more economically liberal generation coming up is also much more socially liberal.
Xboxershorts
Is this the hippie punching thread?
The Tragically Flip
@TooManyJens: Ok, see your point, racism has a social and economic aspect to it, so its placement is problematic.
Wally Ballou
@The Tragically Flip:
Actually, yes. LOTS of people, in fact. White and black.
But, then, I’m a prole.
Sandman
(G)Libertarians are poster-children for the Renaissance Faire Fallacy. They all think that, when the revolution comes, they’re all gonna end up princes.
PanurgeATL
@Xboxershorts: Aren’t they all?
@Paul in KY: I’m not sure what you mean by that, unless it all sounds like Refused or something, which it doesn’t. Could you give me an example?? I mean, I’ve always understood that simplicity as an end in itself is at the very center of the punk idea, and the results generally bear this out. Is this community really gonna deny that?
@McJulie: Fine, whatever. Just don’t think you’re being particularly bold or independent-minded. Maybe I like other stuff. Am I supposed to turn in my license to rock or something?