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You are here: Home / Gun Issues / Gun nuts / Open Thread: Quoted for Truth

Open Thread: Quoted for Truth

by Anne Laurie|  May 29, 20146:14 pm| 118 Comments

This post is in: Gun nuts, Open Threads, Decline and Fall

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yes all guns wilkinson
(Signe Wilkinson via GoComics.com)

Charles P. Pierce, Esquire:

… This is a country now at war with itself. This is a phrase that is generally tossed about when political debate gets too heated. It was popular to say it back in the 1960s, when it seemed quite possibly to be true, with leaders bleeding out on balconies in Memphis or kitchen floors in Los Angeles, and students bleeding out from gunfire on college campuses, and half-baked revolutionary idiots blowing themselves up in Greenwich Village. But this is not the same thing. This is a country at war with itself for profit. This is a country at war with itself because its ruling elite is too cowed, or too well-bribed, or too cowardly to recognize that there are people who are getting rich arming both sides, because the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, so you make sure that it’s easy for the bad guys to get guns in order to make millions selling the guns to the good guys. This is a dynamic not unfamiliar to the people in countries where brushfire conflicts and civil wars are kept alive because distant people are making a buck off them. In Africa, war is made over diamonds and rare earths. In South America, war is made over cocaine. Here, for any number of reasons – because Adam Lanza went crazy or because Elliot Rodger couldn’t get laid – and the only constant in all those wars is the fact somebody gets rich arming both sides.

That is what has come home to roost now. This is a country at war with itself because cynical people have told its citizens that their fellow citizens – all of them, because you can never tell, can you? — are the enemy. This is a country in which citizens make war on each other because that’s what they are being encouraged to do. Someone finds it more profitable to maintain the war than they do to stop it…

Wayne LaPierre gets paid when his masters sell guns to the bad guys. Wayne LaPierre gets paid when his masters sell guns to the good guys because of the guns he’s already arranged to sell to the bad guys. Wayne LaPierre is the strange white man in the Congo who knows where he can get you some AK’s. He’s the shadowy fellow in the coffee shop in Kabul who knows where RPG’s can be had, cheap. He’s the well-dressed, silken-voiced operator, sipping his tea on a cool and breezy veranda outside of Bogota, who smiles at you and shows you on the map where you can pick up your order, because it is time once again for you to make war and him to make money. His look is the smooth and shiny black of the vulture’s feathers. He feasts on the carrion of nations…

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Reader Interactions

118Comments

  1. 1.

    Violet

    May 29, 2014 at 6:24 pm

    Vultures play a useful role in the ecosystem. Wayne LaPierre is no vulture. He makes the deaths possible then reaps the benefit from them. He’s the puppet master of murder.

  2. 2.

    Tehanu

    May 29, 2014 at 6:26 pm

    Thriller novelists in the early 20th century — John Buchan, for instance — used shadowy “arms merchants” as the general villains of practically everything, up to and including starting World War I for profit. It’s horrifying to realize that not only wasn’t that fiction then, it’s not fiction now.

  3. 3.

    Mustang Bobby

    May 29, 2014 at 6:26 pm

    @Violet: He’s the Jackal.

  4. 4.

    Mike in NC

    May 29, 2014 at 6:30 pm

    Yesterday I got a phone call from the Republican National Committee asking for money on behalf of Reince Preibus. I told the idiot on the other end that I was neither a member of the RNC nor a Republican. Went to the dentist this morning and they had FOX News blaring in the waiting room. Then I got home and found junk mail inviting me to join the NRA, complete with a membership card.

    What next?

  5. 5.

    Patricia Kayden

    May 29, 2014 at 6:34 pm

    @Mike in NC: Wonder what you did to get on their radar. Apart from a few stray emails from the DNC, I’ve never been targeted by either party. Maybe because I’m registered as Independent and live in the very blue state of Maryland.

  6. 6.

    BGinCHI

    May 29, 2014 at 6:35 pm

    @Mike in NC: Locusts?

  7. 7.

    ? Martin

    May 29, 2014 at 6:37 pm

    Cowards, the lot of them.

  8. 8.

    StringOnAStick

    May 29, 2014 at 6:37 pm

    @Mike in NC: Find a new dentist, for one. I work as a temp RDH in dental offices, and my experience is that if Fox is blaring in the waiting room, they are a crappy dentist – lack of logical skills and weak on the empathy front, and usually well behind on current standards of practice because who can tell a Fox News viewer anything new and expect them to believe it?*

    *Only being partially snarky here. Seriously, find a new dentist; why support these assholes with your hard-earned money?

  9. 9.

    JPL

    May 29, 2014 at 6:37 pm

    @Mike in NC: At that point I’d pour a glass of wine and say f..k it, but that’s me. When Pappy Bush was President, a son received a screed from the NRA and I called and read them the riot act. If memory serves me, Pappy Bush went publicly against their screed. The son would have cowered in fear.

  10. 10.

    BruinKid

    May 29, 2014 at 6:44 pm

    Read this L.A. Weekly piece to understand the depths to which the GOP has sunk here in California as they attempt to take on Jerry Brown in 2014. Kashkari should have been the serious candidate, someone who, while conservative, uses his brain and understands nuance. So of course he’s projected to lose the top two primary to right-wing racist Minuteman nutjob Tim Donnelly.

    You can see John Oliver show what an ass Donnelly is here. Stephen Colbert also mocked Donnelly back when he was just a Minuteman, before he became an elected official in our state assembly.

  11. 11.

    BruinKid

    May 29, 2014 at 6:46 pm

    And meanwhile in my district, there’s a clown car of 18 candidates running to replace Henry Waxman (D) in Congress. The frontrunners seem to be… oh who the hell knows?

  12. 12.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 29, 2014 at 6:47 pm

    @Mustang Bobby: Both the real and fictional Jackals did their own killings.

  13. 13.

    Trollhattan

    May 29, 2014 at 6:47 pm

    @Violet:

    Hey now, Wayne LaPew may, in fact, share crapping on himself to stay cool, wth vultures.

  14. 14.

    SatanicPanic

    May 29, 2014 at 6:48 pm

    “has come home to roost”

    This phrase should be retired. Ever since Ward Churchill I just tune out whatever comes next.

  15. 15.

    Trollhattan

    May 29, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    @BruinKid:

    I’ve seen an advance copy of Jerry’s reelection strategy: “Continue breathing.”

  16. 16.

    Trollhattan

    May 29, 2014 at 6:54 pm

    Still at it.

    Pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine have shot down a military helicopter near Sloviansk, killing 12 people, the Ukrainian military says. It says the rebels used a Russian-made anti-aircraft system, and that an army general was among the dead.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27618681

  17. 17.

    boatboy_srq

    May 29, 2014 at 6:56 pm

    because the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, so you make sure that it’s easy for the bad guys to get guns in order to make millions selling the guns to the good guys

    THIS. Precisely this.

    @Tehanu: Not only that, but there was a time when any uberwealthy
    “businessman” was suspect, too, because somebody had to be cheated/abused/etc. for that person to get so rich. It’s a sure sign of who’s actually pulling the strings when generations-worth of villians are suddenly the US’ new heroes.

  18. 18.

    Patrick

    May 29, 2014 at 6:57 pm

    @StringOnAStick:

    Amen to that. If I ever see FoxNews on at a business establishment, I leave immediately.

  19. 19.

    jl

    May 29, 2014 at 6:59 pm

    @Trollhattan: I think Jerry is even more blessed in his adversaries than Obama is. ‘Continue breathing’ is pretty much all he has had to do. Some zen-yoga karmic thing he picked up, maybe.

    If Brown feels overtaxed this election, he might divert some funds into Donnelly’s campaign to take the load off and sit down a spell.

  20. 20.

    geg6

    May 29, 2014 at 7:01 pm

    You know, I grew up kind of like how Tbogg described his youthful interaction with guns. Everybody, almost, in my part of PA had deer rifles and shotguns and a few had .22 or .38 handguns. But no one fetishized them. They were tools that, like electric saws or chainsaws, you used sparingly and only in proper context. They weren’t carried ostentatiously or waved about frivolously. No one who did those things got any respect from the community. Hunting, target shooting and skeet shooting were the only acceptable uses. Otherwise, the guns and ammo were stored separately and behind locked doors. My dad quit hunting in the ’80s because too many assholes were out there and he didn’t want any part of their drunken great white hunter games.

    All that is to say, I’ve never been an anti-gun nut. Until the last few years, that is. It’s a small and shrinking group of Americans who now own guns. And, somehow, they not only will not allow us to simply pass common sense gun regulations, but they have rolled back all regulation that was passed over the last forty years. How can this be? And how have we allowed this? What the fuck can we do about it? I have few ideas, but I have a willingness to work for those who have more and better ones.

    It just boggles my mind that we have allowed our government to be taken over by these cretins. It’s a fraction of the people, for FSM’s sake!

  21. 21.

    jeffreyw

    May 29, 2014 at 7:01 pm

    Moar kittehs!

  22. 22.

    geg6

    May 29, 2014 at 7:08 pm

    @Patrick:

    Or I make a fuss. I’ll tell them that if they are going to keep that shit on, I will find another establishment/doctor/dentist/etc.

    Fuck that shit. They need to know exactly why I’m going to never need their services nor will they ever get another thin dime from me or my friends and family. They can like it or lump it.

  23. 23.

    hildebrand

    May 29, 2014 at 7:09 pm

    Well, Joe the Plumber is back at it:

    I think Gabby Giffords should give him a call.

  24. 24.

    Mustang Bobby

    May 29, 2014 at 7:14 pm

    @boatboy_srq: BTW, Boatboy, the final step of the major restoration of the Pontiac is done: the wheels have been refinished. E-mail me for pics.

  25. 25.

    jl

    May 29, 2014 at 7:16 pm

    @geg6: I don’t get it either. I shot guns as a youngin’ on farms, plinking varmints and on livestock, as initial preparation for meals. Gun safety was taken very seriously. If someone said they wanted to name the guns, or give a special gun to a kid to be his or her ‘special’ gun forever, with a name, they would be considered crazy. Wandering around armed to protect yourself, what would be considered nuts. It would be like naming a chainsaw, which can also be deadly, but quite useful on the farm.

    That was even true of the branch of the family that teabaggered itself, before they were baggered. Their positions have evolved, or devolved, or they bought wholesale from political conster after getting on in years and perhaps weakening in the head.

    Edit: and as for carrying guns around at the ready, because ‘Thunderdome!!’ a al NRA nutso propaganda. The response would be like in A Christmas Story: ‘You’ll put your eye out, kid!’

  26. 26.

    raven

    May 29, 2014 at 7:17 pm

    @SatanicPanic: Stokely Carmichael was way before Ward.

  27. 27.

    chopper

    May 29, 2014 at 7:18 pm

    @Trollhattan:

    Pro-Russian freedom rebels in eastern Ukraine have shot down a military helicopter near Sloviansk, killing 12 people Nazis, the Ukrainian totes Nazi military says. It says the rebels used a Russian-made anti-aircraft system which means nothing and that a army Nazi general was among the dead.

    bob’d it for you.

  28. 28.

    Anoniminous

    May 29, 2014 at 7:20 pm

    @geg6:

    Simple.

    Ammosexuals are passionate about their deviance. The majority percentage of Americans who want sensible regulation aren’t. A No-Gun-Regulation politician can count on the ammosexual’s vote. A Gun-Regulation politician cannot count on public support. Saw that in Colorado: a state legislator lost his seat because he took on the gun lobby. Pols over the US took note. They aren’t going to face down the Gun Lobby because the public won’t back them up.

  29. 29.

    raven

    May 29, 2014 at 7:21 pm

    Samuel Wurzelbacher — better known as Joe the Plumber — likes guns. And he wants everyone to know why.

    “Guns are mostly for hunting down politicians who would actively seek to take your freedoms and liberty away from you,” Wurzelbacher wrote on Thursday in a blog post on his website. “Google ‘Hitler, Mao, Kim Jung Il, Castro, Stalin’ just for starters.”

    The post was a kind of follow-up to the “open letter” Wurzelbacher published Tuesday addressing the parents of the victims of last week’s mass shooting near the University of California, Santa Barbara. Following the shooting, Richard Martinez, whose son Chris was among the victims, blamed “craven, irresponsible politicians” and the National Rifle Association for his son’s death. Wurzelbacher responded by writing that “[a]s harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

  30. 30.

    WaterGirl

    May 29, 2014 at 7:22 pm

    @raven: May not-Joe not a plumber rot in hell for saying “your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights”.

  31. 31.

    Yatsuno

    May 29, 2014 at 7:23 pm

    @WaterGirl: Not to be impolite, but what did Hell do to deserve a fate like that? He should fade into oblivion. Absolute nothingness.

  32. 32.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 7:26 pm

    @Yatsuno:

    Technically, that’s what the Bible says will happen: on the Day of Judgment, the good people get eternal life and the bad people die permanently. No eternal hellfire or any of that.

    ETA: Hell only showed up once the early Christian preachers realized they needed something a little more powerful to keep people in line other than, Eventually, you’re gonna die.

  33. 33.

    jl

    May 29, 2014 at 7:27 pm

    @geg6: Though if we are going to go Mad Max a la NRA propaganda, dang we should have kept the old 8 gauge double barrel shotgun. That would come in handy.

  34. 34.

    SatanicPanic

    May 29, 2014 at 7:28 pm

    @raven: The fact that ‘Hitler, Mao, Kim Jung Il, Castro, Stalin’ would be in agreement with him is probably lost on him. They were all about taking up arms against governments they didn’t like. It’s probably not a coincidence that they all created something worse.

  35. 35.

    ? Martin

    May 29, 2014 at 7:28 pm

    @raven: Joe directly confronted then-candidate Obama over taking away such freedoms and liberty. So, why was he too chickenshit to pull the trigger when he had the chance?

  36. 36.

    jl

    May 29, 2014 at 7:29 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Bunch of Persian nonsense.

  37. 37.

    Kropadope

    May 29, 2014 at 7:29 pm

    @Anoniminous:

    Ammosexuals are passionate about their deviance. The majority percentage of Americans who want sensible regulation aren’t.

    This. From what I’ve seen, the more passionate you are about gun legislation, one way or the other, the more likely you seem to be wrong. The all-guns-everywhere people and the no-guns-anywhere people (rare though those may be) deserve each other. Though the latter groups, even still, is more prone to compromise on the issue.

  38. 38.

    rikyrah

    May 29, 2014 at 7:31 pm

    In-depth conversation with Ta-Nehisi Coates on ‘The Case for Reparations’
    Joy Reid talks with Ta-Nehisi Coates about his cover story for The Atlantic that’s awakening America’s consciousness on race and race relations.

    http://www.msnbc.com/the-reid-report/watch/in-depth-talk-on-the-case-for-reparations-269726275634

  39. 39.

    Ash Can

    May 29, 2014 at 7:34 pm

    The collective sphincter-loosening of the NRA over the technology that prevents a gun being fired by anyone but its owner is proof that the NRA considers gun ownership by criminals to be a vital part of its mission, and that it will fight as hard as it can to insure that criminals have access to guns while still maintaining plausible deniability about being on the right side of the law.

  40. 40.

    ? Martin

    May 29, 2014 at 7:35 pm

    @Kropadope: I think Frum has the explanation.

    1. The gun issue allows conservatives to express ethnic and cultural anxieties in ways that are not overtly racial.

    2. Gun advocates’ policy prescriptions do not favor the wealthy.

    3. Gun advocates offer their supporters not just ideological gratification, but actual personal empowerment.

    White men in this country have been at the top of the food chain, and we’re losing that privileged position (and rightfully so). So if can’t have social status, political power, or wealth, you can at least claim superiority through firepower. Each ammosexual is their own private little North Korea.

  41. 41.

    wooflikeabear

    May 29, 2014 at 7:36 pm

    I know Pierce is smarter than this. There are no armed bad guys. They are unarmed blahs, poors, immigrants and minorities.

    Just like every single farking issue in America, this boils down to race and the gun fondling and lack of willingness to address it is a white people problem… And because guns kill people it becomes a problem for everyone else because of it.

  42. 42.

    WereBear

    May 29, 2014 at 7:37 pm

    @jeffreyw: Oh, they are great!

    If anyone needs some cheering up, I shared a nice story recently:

    The Power of Love

    Just in time for June is Shelter Month!

  43. 43.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 7:39 pm

    @jeffreyw:

    The guy on the left looks a little skeptical, but hopeful that the object being pointed at him is actually a toy.

  44. 44.

    the Conster

    May 29, 2014 at 7:39 pm

    @geg6:

    I’ve used the “gun lover” thing to say, if someone came up to you and said “I love my chainsaw”, the immediate gut response would be to back away slowly, keeping eye contact and warn others in the vicinity that that person over there is a lunatic. It’s an indictment on our whole culture that the free admission of gun loving is an acceptable thing.

  45. 45.

    jl

    May 29, 2014 at 7:39 pm

    Is it coincidence that Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin had traffic laws? I think not.

    Like the monsters Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin, Wyatt Earp had gun control in his towns. Look what happened to him, ended up a crooked real estate salesman in Hollywood. Tells you all you need to know.

    Teddy Roosevelt approved of gun control in the Wild West. What did he turn into? A progressive, that’s what!

    Listen to non-Joe the non-plumber, he is talking the same sort of common sense.

    @Ash Can:
    Who is going to keep track of owner when we are all holed up in a shack holding back the coming zombie invasion? Or roving gangs of those people?

  46. 46.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 7:42 pm

    @WereBear:

    Awww! My co-worker’s very first cat is a ten-year-old kitty who lost her owner. The two of them could not be more happy together.

  47. 47.

    Ash Can

    May 29, 2014 at 7:43 pm

    @wooflikeabear: Oh, there’s definitely armed bad guys, it’s just that it has little if anything to do with the armed gun nuts. Criminals are a big source of revenue for gun manufacturers, through theft (and subsequent replacement) and fraudulent purchases, and the NRA is looking to protect that revenue stream. Like I said above, if this weren’t the case, the NRA would have no problem with the technology that prevents guns from being fired by anyone but their owners.

  48. 48.

    WereBear

    May 29, 2014 at 7:47 pm

    @Mnemosyne: That’s wonderful!

    Remember folks, getting an adult cat means they are pre-trained! It’s like getting a cat from charm school.

  49. 49.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 7:48 pm

    This is a horse that I have been flogging too long and after this I guess I will rest it, but this from Charlie Pierce:

    …because Adam Lanza went crazy or because Elliot Rodger couldn’t get laid….

    seems to be a cavalier treatment of the serious problem of mental illness. Lanza didn’t go crazy any more than Gene Tierney can be said to have gone crazy. They both suffered from ongoing, deepening mental illness – except that Tierney was able to get help during her many acute episodes.

    We have yet to learn all we will about Rodger, but he too was a very ill critter. To say he killed because he couldn’t get a laid (and therefore was a woman hater) is immature. Yes, Mr. Pierce is acting like an 8th grader. It seems that Rodger’s disability (ies) evolved into chronic social dysfunction which then maybe created a negative feedback loop. Can anyone know that getting a fuck would have provided strong enough tonic to stem his growing illness. I doubt that it would have.

    Don’t reduce a victim of disease to a bumper sticker in order to further a political cause.

  50. 50.

    WaterGirl

    May 29, 2014 at 7:49 pm

    @Yatsuno: I’m all for that. His sell by date has long expired.

  51. 51.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 7:50 pm

    @WereBear:

    She was very relieved to hear that indoor-only cats can easily live to 18 or 19 (or a little longer). When she adopted the kitty, she thought they would only have a couple of years together.

  52. 52.

    wooflikeabear

    May 29, 2014 at 7:52 pm

    @Ash Can: ok I guess there are armed bad guys somewhere .. And these ‘open carry’ guys posting there videos all over the place are a tantrum away from crossing that line. But obviously the real bad guys they are afraid of are not being encountered. In the absence of real bad guys their focus inevitably falls on anyone thats not them.

  53. 53.

    Calouste

    May 29, 2014 at 7:52 pm

    @the Conster:

    As I said a few threads back, paint all guns bright pink. Easier to spot if there is a wrong guy with a gun, easier to see where your hunting buddy is pointing his gun. What’s their objection, it’s a tool, right? Color of a tool shouldn’t matter, right?

  54. 54.

    WereBear

    May 29, 2014 at 7:59 pm

    @Calouste: I do like this idea.

  55. 55.

    waspuppet

    May 29, 2014 at 8:01 pm

    It was popular to say it back in the 1960s, when it seemed quite possibly to be true, with leaders bleeding out on balconies in Memphis or kitchen floors in Los Angeles, and students bleeding out from gunfire on college campuses, and half-baked revolutionary idiots blowing themselves up in Greenwich Village.

    While not actually backing the revolutionary idiots, I do hope everyone, including Mr. Pierce, notices Which Sort Of People ended up dead in all three of those scenarios.

  56. 56.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 8:13 pm

    @waspuppet:

    I’m pretty sure the Greenwich Village idiots he’s referring to are these guys, most of whom were white. But, as Pierce says, they died from their own stupidity, not from assassination.

  57. 57.

    BBA

    May 29, 2014 at 8:15 pm

    The whole mentality is driven by our founding myth – the patriotic local militias overthrowing the tyranny of King George and so on. In the nearly 250 years since then, we’ve had lots of rebellions and insurrections claiming the mantle of the founders and the inherent right of revolution. The only one to succeed was in Wilmington, N.C., in 1898, when an angry mob of white men overthrew the democratically elected government and installed themselves as rulers of what was then a majority-black city, extinguishing the last remnant of Reconstruction and solidifying the grip of Jim Crow. That’s the kind of “liberty” they mean.

  58. 58.

    Pogonip

    May 29, 2014 at 8:16 pm

    @jl: It was common to name swords, but hardly anyone names guns. I suppose that’ll be the next stupid fad now that tattoos are reaching the saturation point.

  59. 59.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 8:17 pm

    @waspuppet: I am wondering what you see as the commonality of the victims in the quote you provided.

  60. 60.

    CatHairEverywhere

    May 29, 2014 at 8:19 pm

    Jezebel observes the UCSB shooter’s terrible friends so we don’t have to. Scary/infuriating read.

    http://jezebel.com/lessons-from-a-day-spent-with-the-ucsb-shooters-awful-f-1582884301

  61. 61.

    the Conster

    May 29, 2014 at 8:20 pm

    @Keith G:

    Fuck that noise. Rodgers wasn’t crazy, he was a fucking asshole with a massive sense of entitlement and obsessions with his status. I’m going to conjecture like you do – that his “mental illness” was that those two facts – his entitlement and his obsessions – were obstacles to normal interaction with people, so, he found his meaningful relationships with like minded creeps online. That doesn’t make him sick, it makes him a consciously acting agent in his own life that chose… poorly. If you read the postings of his community of creeps subsequent to his rampage they think he’s a hero, like the other misogynist killers they idolize. He’s not a one-off – in fact, he’s not even the first to rampage for the same reason in Isla Vista. They’re not crazy, they’re creeps, and they’re all still out there with their asshole beliefs. Get a fucking clue.

  62. 62.

    Pogonip

    May 29, 2014 at 8:21 pm

    @raven: What a maroon. (Joe the Non-plumber, not you.). Guns are for obtaining food, for target shooting, and for defending yourself against the occasional criminal. You can’t defend yourself against politicians, 1%ers, with small arms. You’re outgunned (grin) from the start.

  63. 63.

    Michael Bloom

    May 29, 2014 at 8:26 pm

    The Jagged Orbit was an SF novel by the late John Brunner, who also wrote the similarly cynical Stand On Zanzibar. In both, and a few others, Brunner examines various social problems by positing a future society wherein these problems are hugely magnified. In The Jagged Orbit the problems include racism and gun nuttery. I’d forgotten this book until this post, and now I have to go re-read it, because even forty years back it’s got Wayne LaPew’s number.

  64. 64.

    Violet

    May 29, 2014 at 8:27 pm

    @Keith G:

    We have yet to learn all we will about Rodger, but he too was a very ill critter. To say he killed because he couldn’t get a laid (and therefore was a woman hater) is immature

    His friends from the PUAHate forum disagree with you:

    This weekend, I made the enlightening mistake of participating in the #YesAllWomen hashtag. I call it a mistake because a depressing number of responses I got for my sub-140 character contribution to the conversation centered around the fact that ELLIOT RODGER DIDN’T HATE WOMEN HE WAS MENTALLY ILL AND BESIDES HE KILLED MORE MEN THAN WOMEN! which is an excuse that it seems gets made a lot whenever the guy (because it’s almost always a guy) holding the gun (because it’s almost always a gun) is white-looking rather than brown or black-looking. Mental illness. Not terrorism or misogyny or a metastacized perversion of mildly fucked up aspects of American masculinity culture that become massively fucked up aspects when they collide with mental illness or personality disorders. Rodger said he did it because he hates women.

    So do the other forum participants.

    [9:27 AM]: media doesnt aknolwedge the majroity of males’ discontentment with current sexual distopia

    [9:27 AM]: its all about HATING WOMEN

    How many times do they have to tell us before we believe them?

    Go read the whole thing.

  65. 65.

    Pogonip

    May 29, 2014 at 8:29 pm

    @jl: Good Lord. What’s it like to fire a 8-gauge? I had the opportunity to fire a 10-gauge once and it darn near sent me into orbit.

  66. 66.

    m.j.

    May 29, 2014 at 8:32 pm

    The NRA is a terrorist organization.

    That’s all I’ve got to say.

  67. 67.

    muddy

    May 29, 2014 at 8:32 pm

    People across the street from me today threatened to shoot my dogs. The cop said he asked them and they said they don’t have any weapons at all. I pointed out the fake deer set up in the yard with its head mostly blown off and said they’re lying about the weapons like they’re lying about the rest of it. Oh, you asked them, that’s thorough. I was not aware that people without guns generally run around threatening to shoot them.

    My and my dog’s crime? I was concerned over a dog who cries (not barks, screams and cries) on a chain all day long. For 2 months. I don’t own a gun because sometimes I feel real justified. I hate them.

  68. 68.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 8:34 pm

    @the Conster: We will see.

    @Violet:

    His friends from the PUAHate forum disagree with you

    I am sure that they are all accomplished clinicians. Since I am not, I am willing to admit that all I can do is provide an informed conjecture. And, I am willing to leave it at that until some better informed consensus is found.

  69. 69.

    the Conster

    May 29, 2014 at 8:35 pm

    @Keith G:

    We will see.. what? We already know that (1) you’re a prig, and (2) that you’re a clueless prig.

  70. 70.

    jl

    May 29, 2014 at 8:35 pm

    @Pogonip:

    ” It was common to name swords, but hardly anyone names guns. ”

    Extreme gun nuts name guns. I’ve read about it in a couple articles about kids who shot themselves or others with their pet gun that the dad ceremoniously gifted to them.

    A lot of machines did have names on the farm, usually related to how often they did not work or broke down. But I can’t give any examples on a family blog like this. Guns were one of the things that never had names like that, since if they were not working correctly, then they were too dangerous to try to use until they were fixed. Chainsaws and nail-guns also to. And welding equipment.

    Plows, harrows, sprayers, tractors, trucks and trailer hitches had lots and lots of names.

  71. 71.

    gene108

    May 29, 2014 at 8:40 pm

    @Ash Can:

    The collective sphincter-loosening of the NRA over the technology that prevents a gun being fired by anyone but its owner is proof that the NRA considers gun ownership by criminals to be a vital part of its mission, and that it will fight as hard as it can to insure that criminals have access to guns while still maintaining plausible deniability about being on the right side of the law.

    I do not think they are worried about the black or Latino gang bangers as much as they are worried about white supremacists not being able to get guns.

    Ruby Ridge has been a big rallying point for gun-nuts.

    Randy Weaver was selling sawed off shotguns (illegal since 1934) to white supremacists. This is the guy they have chosen to rally around about government overreach regarding gun control.

    I do not think it is a coincidence that the militia movements of the 1990’s, the white supremacist movements of the 1980’s and the current incarnation of pro-gun lobbyist groups have all converged on a very expansionist view of the 2nd Amendment as being essential to “defend freedom”.

    EDIT: Yes, the government could have handled the situation at Ruby Ridge much better than it did, but it does not absolve the right-wingers, who support Randy Weaver, of the fact he was selling illegal guns to white supremacists and refused to appear for his day in court that led to the stand-off/siege/shoot-out at Ruby Ridge. Weaver was not a law abiding responsible gun owner, but he’s the guy they want to get behind. That should tell you something about where the NRA, GOA, etc. head is at.

  72. 72.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 8:41 pm

    @the Conster: If calling names does it for you, please carry on.

  73. 73.

    the Conster

    May 29, 2014 at 8:44 pm

    @Keith G:

    Will do. Prig.

  74. 74.

    jl

    May 29, 2014 at 8:44 pm

    @Pogonip:

    ” Good Lord. What’s it like to fire a 8-gauge? ”

    For most people, it probably would be exactly like breaking or dislocating something. Back in the day, they were mounted on a frame or boat and aimed at a flock waterfowl just taking off, which I think is illegal now. We never fired it, probably had not been used since the 1930s.

    I don’t know if there is way to safely shoot an 8 gauge while holding it without some kind of mount.

  75. 75.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 8:53 pm

    @gene108:

    There is fairly compelling circumstantial evidence that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were aided by at least one white supremacist group, but McVeigh didn’t give them up in his interrogation or trial, so there wasn’t enough evidence to convict any additional conspirators.

    And McVeigh’s purpose was the same as Charles Manson’s — to start a race war. Both of them were destined to be disappointed.

  76. 76.

    SatanicPanic

    May 29, 2014 at 8:55 pm

    @? Martin: Frum totally nailed it with that one. That guy is kind of full of crap on a lot of things, but every now and then he really hits one out of the park.

  77. 77.

    Violet

    May 29, 2014 at 8:56 pm

    @Keith G: How is your conjecture any more informed than the conjectures of his friends and cohorts who knew him and his thoughts much better than you? Unless you were his treating physician, your clinical assessment is worth no more than theirs.

  78. 78.

    karen

    May 29, 2014 at 9:10 pm

    Hmmm….so maybe my facetious conspiracy theory of the NRA paying people to commit these mass murders to scare people into buying more guns isn’t the joke I thought it was?

  79. 79.

    Pogonip

    May 29, 2014 at 9:19 pm

    @jl: I’ll be darned. I never knew farm equipment got named. That’s interesting!

  80. 80.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 9:23 pm

    @Violet:

    How is your conjecture any more informed than the conjectures of his friends and cohorts who knew him and his thoughts much better than you?

    Not long ago I was scanning comments made by a Philip Bloeser, a friend since grade school who said, “You cannot rationalize or explain this. He obviously had a serious mental illness”.

    For 25 years, until I left the profession, I volunteered to teach in settings that served emotionally disabled students. That 25 years of teaching, additional profession education, and working daily with some very talented professional in the mental health and medical fields gives me a bit of insight, the ability to propose – and to wonder. And enough wisdom never to be certain.

    As I said above, time will tell. He has a long history of mental health treatment, both talk therapy and medication. It’s possible that his treatment information will be made known. Maybe it won’t – but I assume it will eventually.

  81. 81.

    the Conster

    May 29, 2014 at 9:24 pm

    @Violet:

    How is your conjecture any more informed than the conjectures of his friends and cohorts who knew him and his thoughts much better than you?

    It isn’t.

  82. 82.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 9:36 pm

    @the Conster:
    Me

    And enough wisdom never to be certain

    You

    It isn’t.

    Thank you for agreeing with me.

  83. 83.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 29, 2014 at 9:43 pm

    @Keith G: Whether he was mentally ill or just an asshole, the facts that he found a group of toxic shitheels to encourage and reinforce his attitudes and that he had easy access to firearms seem to be the more immediate causes of the massacre.

  84. 84.

    muddy

    May 29, 2014 at 9:46 pm

    @jl: How many shells can you put in your pockets before you are auto-pantsed?

  85. 85.

    the Conster

    May 29, 2014 at 9:57 pm

    @Keith G:

    I’ve decided to take the killer’s word instead of your airy fairy I once knew someone who had a psychology degree who’s cousin once met Mick- Rodgers took painstaking effort to document his actions in a lengthy timeline with video and a manifesto, with close detail to his thought processes consistent with the timeline and manifesto, consistent with his online identity, and consistent with his subculture’s ideology. They’re a bunch of fucking creeps who aren’t crazy, they’re misogynistic creeps, and Rodgers is now another one of their hero/martyrs. All your mansplainin’ in the world doesn’t change that fact. But, please proceed Keith G.

  86. 86.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 9:58 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Thanks for the input. I was not arguing about that.

    I was just concerned about what seems to be a cottage industry that has sprung up hoping that Rodger could shown to be a misogynist fully in control of his mental state- and thus a very important data point. Maybe he was all that, but it seems a bit doubtful.

    Again, I think that in time there will be a higher degree of knowledge about the horrible recipe that brought this sad event about. And then at that time, we can more effectively toss around ideas about our poisonous culture.

  87. 87.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 10:01 pm

    @the Conster:

    mansplainin’

    Yup. That’s it.

    Damn. Caught in the act.

  88. 88.

    WaterGirl

    May 29, 2014 at 10:04 pm

    @muddy: Oh, muddy, that’s awful! The police didn’t even check for guns? Are they going to do anything? I am really sorry this is happening.

  89. 89.

    WaterGirl

    May 29, 2014 at 10:05 pm

    Omnes, I tried to reply to your comment, but WP ate my comment. Is anybody trying to fix the problem?

  90. 90.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 29, 2014 at 10:06 pm

    @Keith G: Look, I think that a person would have to be mentally ill to do what he did. It is also quite possible to be mentally ill yet be considered legally sane. It strikes me that Rodger was aware of what he was doing and aware that it was illegal yet he chose to do it anyway. That tends to indicate legal sanity.

  91. 91.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 29, 2014 at 10:08 pm

    @WaterGirl: The problem of replying to me? Or the problem of noxious assholes with guns?

  92. 92.

    mainmata

    May 29, 2014 at 10:08 pm

    @Mike in NC: Um, guess they figure you live in NC and so…These marketers do pretty broad sweeps after all.

  93. 93.

    WaterGirl

    May 29, 2014 at 10:12 pm

    @ Omnes:

    Is anybody trying to fix the WP problem where replies to you are eaten? I know many people are trying to solve the gun problem, but unfortunately they are not the ones with the power to solve it. Hoping I am proven wrong on that one.

  94. 94.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 10:13 pm

    @Keith G:

    I was just concerned about what seems to be a cottage industry that has sprung up hoping that Rodger could shown to be a misogynist fully in control of his mental state- and thus a very important data point.

    So if he’s shown to be a misogynist who was not fully in control of his mental state, that proves what, exactly? I’m really not getting your point here.

    The man who shot up a Jewish center in Kansas and killed three people probably was not fully in control of his mental state. Does that mean he was not driven by anti-Semitism when he chose a Jewish center for his killing spree?

  95. 95.

    muddy

    May 29, 2014 at 10:16 pm

    @WaterGirl: Popo gave me a order of trespass, if I go over to help the dog again I will be a felon. I insisted they give one to the assholes too. Cop didn’t see why that was necessary. I said he’s the one doing everything wrong and I get written up? I said I want it on the record about his actions, or it will look like I am the only one in the wrong. Not that I was.

    Such bullshit – I know good and well if a man lived here no one would be screaming in my face. I told my sister the next time she feels annoyed with her husband, she should reflect that she never has that happen, just because he’s sitting there breathing.

  96. 96.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 29, 2014 at 10:17 pm

    @WaterGirl: No idea. I’ve seen a number of comments over the past few days saying that FYWP has been hungry and eating a lot of comments. They can’t all be replies to me.

  97. 97.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 10:19 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yup. That is a solid view. In my line of reasoning (and out loud wondering), I think about someone with a deteriorating connection to the rational world that, while still “legally aware”, is in a state of inability to care about horrible consequences.

    Like Andrea Yates who drowned her children: She knew what she was doing, but was not in a state to care about the consequences. Some of these issues are really hard to thinly slice – although that does not stop us from trying.

  98. 98.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 10:21 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    So if he’s shown to be a misogynist who was not fully in control of his mental state, that proves what, exactly?

    It proves whatever the truth proves. Let’s get to the truth first, and then we will have time to form our arguments.

  99. 99.

    Bob In Portland

    May 29, 2014 at 10:25 pm

    Did anyone else notice how little coverage there was of Snowden’s interview?

  100. 100.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 10:28 pm

    @Bob In Portland: Who did he shoot?

  101. 101.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 29, 2014 at 10:28 pm

    @Keith G: What is truth? said jesting Pilate, and would not stay for an answer.

  102. 102.

    Fair Economist

    May 29, 2014 at 10:36 pm

    @jl:

    I think Jerry is even more blessed in his adversaries than Obama is. ‘Continue breathing’ is pretty much all he has had to do. Some zen-yoga karmic thing he picked up, maybe.

    If Brown feels overtaxed this election, he might divert some funds into Donnelly’s campaign to take the load off and sit down a spell.

    It’s more that Brown has done a relatively good job, plus he’s had a very low bar to clear due to over a decade of extreme Republican obstructionism which finally got broken with 2/3 Democratic majorities in the statehouse. He’s been doing sensible good government things, and even though he really hasn’t been very liberal, it’s such a relief to have a state government that works that the liberals love him. Centrists (rare, but they do exist) like him because he’s really been centrist. Even some conservatives like him because, well, it’s nice to have a functioning government, nutty conservative rhetoric to the contrary notwithstanding.

    Brown has little reason to care whether he runs against Donelly or Kashkari. Kashkari is a lot less likely to say something stupid, but he’s a really weak candidate – ex-Goldman Sachs employee, manager of the TARP, no political experience, and very demotivational to Republicans (voted for Obama, gave a seminar on Shariah finance, supports parts of Obamacare.) The demotivational stuff is actually all quite sensible but the Republican base voters are such loony tunes now that they demand their candidates take on a long list of nutty positions and he’s not a nut.

  103. 103.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 10:38 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: The Yates case is interesting. The State of Texas wanted to put her to death and was sure that it could.

    After all she devised a rather ingenious and complicated plan to drown her five children. The state had testimony such as:

    Investigators would later testify that Yates had to chase the last child, her eldest, Noah, seven, through the family home and drag him into the bathroom

    But eventually, the will of the state was frustrated.

  104. 104.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 10:42 pm

    @Keith G:

    Way to be non-responsive. Here’s a case that may help clarify things for you:

    Mentally Ill Man Kills Beloved Gay Activist

    This is a very clear-cut case — the killer was out on temporary leave from a mental hospital, waited outside a gay club, and beat the man to death while shouting gay slurs at him. The killer had a long history of schizophrenia and impulsivity.

    So, in your opinion, the murder had nothing to do with homophobia and was merely a case of a mentally ill person acting on their delusions, correct?

  105. 105.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 29, 2014 at 10:43 pm

    @Keith G: The ability to formulate an ingenuous and complicated plan doesn’t enter into the legal definition of sanity.

  106. 106.

    khead

    May 29, 2014 at 10:44 pm

    @jeffreyw:

    Gonna ask again….. are those KITTEHS spoken for? We like.

  107. 107.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 10:48 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: There ya go.

  108. 108.

    mainmata

    May 29, 2014 at 10:49 pm

    @geg6: I also grew up mostly in Pittsburgh but actually in the city proper and no one in any of our family’s peer group (working class to middle class, 1960s-70s) owned or used guns. The Deer Hunter was definitely authentic but I always thought it was a phenomenon of the southern and western working class communities around Pittsburgh. That said, they were serious hunters and not the bizarre, modern day sick gun fetishists. Also, PA had governors like Bill Scranton (R) who would be regarded as almost progressive Dems these days.

  109. 109.

    gbear

    May 29, 2014 at 10:52 pm

    @Bob In Portland: There’s LOTS of coverage over at Little Green Footballs if you need a fix.

  110. 110.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 10:53 pm

    @khead:

    You should probably contact him through the What’s 4 Dinner website:

    http://whats4dinnersolutions.com

    Looks like there are 3 of them but only 2 would fit on a lap at one time.

  111. 111.

    khead

    May 29, 2014 at 10:59 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    I can’t go to whats4dinnersolutions – it always makes me hungry!

    Thank you though, I don’t really want to act like a stalker but I think my wife may be in love.

  112. 112.

    Keith G

    May 29, 2014 at 11:02 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I do not recall putting forward a “nothing but” argument. Either you have misread that or you are attempting to change the terms of the discussion.

    Me from 45 min ago:

    Again, I think that in time there will be a higher degree of knowledge about the horrible recipe that brought this sad event about. And then at that time, we can more effectively toss around ideas about our poisonous culture.

    As to the case you have brought up, I do wonder if the subject’s animosity toward gays was largely a result of the way his illness structured his understanding of the world. Even if his anti gay feelings predated his illness, given that schizophrenia is known to cause violent acting out, how could anyone be certain that it was a acute episode that was the cause of the crime and not a longer-term ill will against gays? Only a very small percent of the folks who hate gays ever act out against them.

  113. 113.

    Mnemosyne

    May 29, 2014 at 11:22 pm

    @Keith G:

    Again, I think that in time there will be a higher degree of knowledge about the horrible recipe that brought this sad event about. And then at that time, we can more effectively toss around ideas about our poisonous culture.

    We have a 173-page manifesto and a video from the killer outlining his beliefs and his explanation for why he did this. How much additional evidence do you need at this point before you can say he was driven by misogyny regardless of his mental state?

    You’re starting to sound like the Wayne LaPierre of social issues, It’s too soon to talk about the social issues! … That happened weeks ago, why are you only bringing up the social issues now?

    As to the case you have brought up, I do wonder if the subject’s animosity toward gays was largely a result of the way his illness structured his understanding of the world.

    Yes, because schizophrenics are not influenced by society, so any racism, misogyny, or homophobia they exhibit is solely a result of their mental state and has nothing to do with the society around them.

  114. 114.

    Fred Fnord

    May 30, 2014 at 2:43 am

    @Kropadope:

    The all-guns-everywhere people and the no-guns-anywhere people (rare though those may be) deserve each other.

    Oh, thanks, I was just waiting for my daily dose of false equivalence.

    Because no-guns-nowhere (say the UK) is clearly every bit as bad as all-guns-everywhere USA, right? Clearly the optimum answer must lie exactly midway between a high murder, suicide, and accidental death rate and a low one.

  115. 115.

    Big Picture Pathologist

    May 30, 2014 at 8:12 am

    @Ash Can:

    This.

  116. 116.

    Big Picture Pathologist

    May 30, 2014 at 8:12 am

    @Ash Can:

    Indeed!

  117. 117.

    Racer_X

    May 31, 2014 at 9:18 am

    @Mike in NC: Get a new dentist.

Comments are closed.

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