“He (still) hates America’s great military traditions!” Tweaking the beast, in the pages of the Washington Post:
…The service academies — the U.S. Military Academy for the Army (West Point), the U.S. Naval Academy, the U.S. Air Force Academy and the U.S. Coast Guard Academy — promise to educate and mold future officers charged with leading the enlisted members of the military.
But they are not the hallowed arbiters of quality promised by their myths. Their traditions mask bloated government money-sucks that consistently underperform. They are centers of nepotism that turn below-average students into average officers. They are indulgences that taxpayers, who fund them, can no longer afford. They’ve outlived their use, and it’s time to shut them down.
The most compelling and obvious argument is the financial one. It officially costs about $205,000 to produce a West Point graduate, although a 2003 Government Accountability Office study put the price tag at more than $300,000; officers at the Air Force and Naval academies are minted for $322,000 and $275,000, respectively. According to at least one measurement, that’s about four times as much as it costs to produce an officer through the Reserve Officers’ Training Corps, which trains officers-to-be while they attend civilian colleges…
Anecdotes are not data, but in my experience, committed Libertarians have been the biggest service-academy cheerleaders — knowing how to “work the system” to ensure that your kid can become “recognized for life as a member of the elite” is a valuable bragging point.
I’m willing to accept that America needs to pay for a permanent officer corp, but it does seem like ROTC is both a cheaper and a more democratic method. Your thoughts?
Gindy51
If the Marines don’t need a service academy, why do the others need one?
Mike E
My daughter did her full compliment of JROTC in HS and had a pretty positive experience…needless to say, she didn’t sign up after graduation.
WereBear
Which makes it useless for snob appeal!
Which, to some people, is more important than actually being able to do the job.
Lee
The service academies graduates are ‘regular’ officers. The ROTC graduates are ‘reserve’ officers. The idea is that the regular officers are making the military a career while the reserve officers do not.
Here is the data that would be interesting:
How many reserve officers never actually go into the reserve (e.g. stay active for the entire career)?
How many regular officers either downgrade to reserve or just drop out?
What are the percentages for both?
I have several friends that were reserve officers in a branch but stayed active for 20 years and retired.
If more than 4x more service academy graduates stay in for 20 years it might be more cost effective for the service acadamies.
rikyrah
Of all the waste in our budgets, I’m just not going to go for shutting down the Academies.
Amir Khalid
@efgoldman:
No, not today.
Mike in NC
@Gindy51: USNA grads can choose either Navy or Marines.
Yatsuno
I know an Annapolis grad who is in flight training now. It’s hard to say if he would have been better off if he had gone ROTC because other than the USNA he had no real college ambitions. I have known really good officers and really bad officers who came out of ROTC. Beauchamp might be pointing to the wrong problem
BTW my friend isn’t a legacy or rich by any means.
pluky
@Gindy51: Annapolis grads have a choice of USN or USMC.
Baud
I don’t know enough about the military to have an opinion. However, the stated amount of money it takes to produce an officer didn’t strike me as inordinately high.
Lee
@Gindy51:
The Marines are a part of the Navy.
It used to be (not sure if it still is) you could go to Westpoint and then get a Marine commission.
Steeplejack (phone)
@efgoldman:
Yeah. Android and Chrome on my phone. Page loads and then freezes. Can’t refresh; have to kill the tab, open a new one and reload completely.
Tommy
My father’s PhD is in military tactics. Taught at the Army War College. Dad is not what you’d call a liberal. But he will openly say many of the people he taught, mind you they were being groomed to eventually hold the highest offices, were not that smart.
One of my happy times is watching CNN/MSNBC with my dad. A “war expert” will come on. Dad will note he had that guy in class and he couldn’t think his way out of a wet paper bag. He will openly ask “why is that person on TV?” The few times we are in agreement and I just say, I wonder the same thing myself dad.
Oh I should note my father thinks war is bad. Will tell you that those that commit our kids to war know not what they do. Yeah there is a Republican pro-military guy that thinks that!
Starfish
The cost of education has gone up, and the financial arguments against should involve bending the cost curve for everyone. Shutting down institutions of higher education just makes the existing ones all the more selective seems like it is not a particularly effective move.
Mike in NC
ROTC programs became extremely unpopular on many campuses during the Vietnam war, and were shut down at dozens of colleges and universities by student demand. Not sure of the number that were restored in the years that followed.
I’d have applied to enroll in ROTC, but found very few schools offered it in Massachusetts in the 1970s. Had to go to OCS after college.
Tommy
@Baud: I am a military brat. Graduating from one of the services schools is just about the best thing around in the circles I live in. There are issues with them, at the top of the list sexism. But if I had children I’d only hope they’d attend. I’d be very proud.
Yatsuno
@Lee: I think it all goes through USNA now. But I’m not confident on that.
According to this you have to swap commissions. So my guess is it happens very rarely.
Tree With Water
I picture Ulysses Grant during his freshman year at West Point, avidly following congressional debate that preceded a vote to shut down both academies. A lonesome Grant wanted to go home so badly he could taste it, and fervently prayed that the bill pass.
Both academies* have more than paid their freight since their inception, and should be maintained. That blanket endorsement does not, however, extend to the Air Force academy (nor the AF itself, which should be abolished and folded back into the Army).
* (plus the third tenor of academies, that of the Coast Guard- the most beneficial of them all).
raven
My old man was enlisted Navy in WWII and took a commission after he graduated from college. He hated Regular Navy pukes.
schrodinger's cat
You cannot measure the worth of everything in $$$.
Corner Stone
@Tommy:
Why do you keep saying this?
Tommy
@Starfish: My parents paid for my college. It is kind of a thing with my family, your education will be paid for. Know what my parents paid from 1987 until 1992 (I got a Masters), never more than $3,000. I went to Western Illinois University and LSU. Two state schools where I got a quality education. I will put up what I got against Harvard any day of the week.
BTW: Send your child to WIU. One of the best experiences of my life.
Felixmoronia
The Marines are a part of the Navy.
Say that to a Marine and you will get the stink-eye at best, a punch in the nose at worst.
The USMC is under the umbrella of the Dept. of the Navy for admin and procurement reasons.
eta: the first sentence was a quote of [email protected]
raven
Lil Bit wanted to say hello.
So did the Bohdster!
Tommy
@Corner Stone: Context. If I am going to talk about the military I think it is helpful for you to know I might be a “homer.” But I guess not in your case.
Mike in NC
Every few years someone argues about closing the service academies to save money, but that’s always a nonstarter due to Congress and the powerful alumni associations.
Usually the idea is to emulate the British, where the commissioning course at Sandhurst lasts for under a year.
raven
@Felixmoronia: Yea, especially the ones that are stationed on fucking ships.
Goblue72
@Tommy: except for, you know, the prestige, the networks, the connections, the job opportunities and the leg up on grad school acceptance, it’s all just the same.
Mike in NC
@Tree With Water: USAFA in Colorado Springs is sort of notorious for attracting religious zealots.
raven
@Mike in NC: The West Point Protective Association. And you are right, it’s all bullshit, they ain’t closin diddly shit.
Corner Stone
@Tommy: Context is important, I agree. I’m still not sure how your dad being a civilian employed by the DoD makes you a military brat, but maybe it’s just me.
My dad was drafted, his dad was in WWII, and his dad’s dad was also in the military. I, however, am not a military brat.
Tommy
@Goblue72: Did I piss in your Wheaties and not aware of it?
I went to a school my parents and grandparents didn’t go to on purpose. Wanted to make my own way in the world.
Redshift
@Mike in NC: I don’t know if other schools have a similar history, but at Yale, my alma mater, the program was restored and then shut down again during DADT because students complained that discrimination was against the school’s stated principles. It was restored when that ended, and is currently active.
Felixmoronia
A professor from USNA had an article in the 1/5/15 ed. of Salon with an arguement for closing the academies.
Tokyokie
@Felixmoronia: As they say, Marine stands for My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment.
raven
@Tokyokie: Eat the apple and fuck the corps.
Hawes
Maybe the academies should have regular admissions departments, rather than rely on members of Congress.
Felonius Monk
@raven: Lil Bit is looking a little grumpy in that photo. Nice looking arfers.
Tommy
@Corner Stone: I have been very clear about things. I lived in and/or around a military base my entire youth. I went to a school that was almost all military.We moved every three or four years to a new base. You don’t want me to list all the places I’ve lived. If I can’t call myself a military brat from this all then fine. You win!
The Gray Adder
I bet OCS gives you the biggest bang for the buck. I can tell you from experience that officers who have previously been enlisted members are usually better officers. The biggest idiots with butter bars I have ever seen came from West Point, some of them maybe one step removed from those neighbors you try to avoid with the pickup trucks in the front yard and the Tea Party flags hanging from the porch. And don’t even get me started on the “born agains” who also happen to be military officers. That’s quite literally drinking the Kool Aid.
Beauchamp is dead on with his assessment.
Corner Stone
@Tommy:
Thank you. Number 44, I win! Whooo! Get some cold cuts! Get some cold cuts!
Litlebritdifrnt
@Mike in NC: I read a story one time about a special ops guy in the US going over to the UK and trying to pass the Royal Marine Officers programme, he failed because it was just too damn hard. I dated a RM officer once and I never disrespected the guy, ever. He was kind of an elite upper class twit if you will but I never forgot what he had gone through to become an RM officer.
Corner Stone
@The Gray Adder:
I’m not a military brat like Tommy, but my understanding is that an appointment to West Point is a pretty big deal, and goes to people who are pretty accomplished and *also* somewhat connected.
raven
@Tommy: She’s fine. Her directional hearing is going so she’s always puzzled when I whistle for her attention.
The Gray Adder
My favorites were the ones who would flat out tell me they were “visual” people. In other words, you literally had to draw them a f***ing picture when explaining something because their verbal comprehension skills were that piss-poor.
sharl
@Felixmoronia: USNA Prof. Bruce Fleming’s Jan.5 Salon article is actually cited and referred to approvingly in Beauchamp’s WaPo piece.
raven
@Corner Stone: After determining that you meet the basic requirements to become a cadet, you should begin seeking nominations. In order to be considered for admission at West Point, you need to be nominated. There are two types of nominations, the Congressional Nomination and the Service-Connected Nomination.
Felixmoronia
@The Gray Adder:
Don’t forget the Citadel and VMI.
The Gray Adder
@Corner Stone: You would be surprised. Being “accomplished” usually means being just good enough at high school football not to get an athletic scholarship, and being “connected,” well, you could say George W. Bush was “connected.” That doesn’t mean you’re smart enough to tell shit from shinola without a laminated chart one might keep under one’s helmet.
The Gray Adder
@Mike in NC: So is West Point.
raven
@The Gray Adder: Goddamn right. Fucking pointer could have gotten my ass killed one really cold night just south of Munsani.
MomSense
@raven:
Hello!! Two gorgeous pups!
raven
@MomSense: Knuckle heads!
Chris
@Tommy:
Considering the disquieting number of people who used to think Tom Clancy was a military expert, this does not surprise me in the least.
gogol's wife
@raven:
So cute!
Corner Stone
@The Gray Adder: I’m sure I would be surprised, overall. However, I went to school with at least one WP Nom, and they were not a joke.
That’s a small sample, I guess. I also know more than one Navy SEAL and they are all fucking assholes.
So, I guess that doesn’t really clarify things. By the way, I kicked the absolute fuck out of at least one SEAL in racquetball, routinely. And his younger brother who went on to play professionally. Which makes me the true tough guy, I guess.
TriassicSands
In the recent past, the Air Force Academy has seemed more like a Bible college for future Crusaders than an institution to educate and train future secular military leaders. (And there is no room, in my opinion, for anything but a secular officer corps in the military.
The Air Force Academy is located near Colorado Springs, CO, which has become a kind of HQ for right wing religious nuts. The community is bound to have a corrosive influence on the Air Force Academy. Unless there is a way to truly secularize the Air Force Academy, I’d vote to shut it down. Of course, that may just encourage religious colleges to enlarge their own ROTC programs so they can train tomorrow’s Crusaders, today.
While the separation of Church and State is vital to the health of the society as a whole, it is at least as mportant in the military. Otherwise, you end up with Christians fighting in the name of Jesus to conquer Islam. I don’t see how that is any better than Islamic extremists fighting to crush Christianity.
Chris
@Mike in NC:
@Redshift:
In DC, ROTC was organized across multiple universities – Army ROTC was at Georgetown, Air Force ROTC was at Howard, but the cadets came from pretty much all the colleges in the area.
And yes, at American University at least, ah… yes, if I recall correctly, ROTC was a no-no because of DADT. Don’t know if it’s changed since then, I expect it has.
Chris
@TriassicSands:
Yeah, I agree. Neutral in religion and neutral in politics.
I never knew my grandfather (career Army), but I’m told he refused to ever register a party affiliation, considering it inappropriate for an officer. From what I understand, that was common practice at the time, and some people took it to the extreme of refusing to even vote. Nowadays…
Karen in GA
@raven: Aaaaaaww! Please
scratch behind all four ears for me.
raven
@Karen in GA: Done.
Mike in NC
Of course, the ultimate “connected” guy was named John S. McCain, son and grandson of four-star admirals.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tommy: You are not a military brat.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Isn’t he a frat brother of yours?
Bill Murray
@Corner Stone: Were my eyes better, I would have had an appointment to West Point back in 1980. I was pretty accomplished (varsity letters in multiple sports, graduated 5th in my class and had very good SAT and ACT score), but my family has zero connections — but South Dakota probably did not require any. I got asked if I wanted to apply by Senator Larry Pressler’s office because I went to a summer academic workshop at West Point. I was invited to the academic workshop because my PSAT score was very high.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Yeah, but that doesn’t make him a military brat.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh. Using his previous criteria I thought it was a kind of transmutitus transmutandis.
So say you one, so say say you all.
Dave
@TriassicSands: Ughh fucking true believers. The officers that are true believers are the worst. I always had trouble with them because they bring my contempt out in ways that can’t be hidden. Also they do have a crusader mentality and are terrifying in their fervor and stupidity. The impenetrable armor of the certain is a poison.
Regarding the Academies I find prior enlisted that go through OCS make the best or the worst officers. Usually don’t find much middle ground there. West Pointers well there are good ones but there are many questionable ones as well (sorta the Ivy League problem assume they know more are smarter than they really are compared to the general population). I don’t trust most career officers though I’ve sorta accidentally become a career enlisted guy (at least in the reserves)over time. It’s the ones that look to get that star that are problematic. Pretty muchm ost people driven for rank and power are probably the ones that really shouldn’t have it.
Corner Stone
@Bill Murray: I actually kind of dominated both the ACT and SAT, and graduated extremely high in my very large senior class. But I lived in a large metro area and my family was dirt poor whiteys. So, meh.
I’ve probably been shot at in anger more times than a lot of my contemporary WP grads have.
WTS, I can’t honestly have ever seen myself in the military. Stocks come to mind, or whatever the modern day KP duty version is.
PaulW
Problem is we send too many to the service academies: we end up getting a glut of officers many of whom don’t stick to it as a career partly because of said glut.
The attendees are selected via Congress members, at last I recall 5 per House representative and 2 per Senator, with a certain number from the President and Vice President. That’s for Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard. We could weed it back to just 3 per Representative, same number for Senator, and a reduced number from the President (no Veep candidates) and with the ones added from existing ROTC programs we should have more than enough junior officers to keep the military organizations staffed.
TJ
The service academies provide about 3K officers per year against about 10K per year officer accessions.
If there is a glut it isn’t from the academies.
OTOH, my experience of academy grads is both daily and not conducive to maintaining the illusion that they are illustrious institutions.
Tyro
The service academies are those things that don’t make sense economically but serve a sort of important cultural purpose. Even though most of our officers come via ROTC and there’s no evidence that the service academies produce officers any better than the ones we get out of ROTC, the academies basically serve as a symbol of officer-creation.
It’s like having the Capitol Building be made out of marble with lots of statues. It’s probably more difficult and more expensive to maintain than a modern structure, but people like the fact that our government does business there.
Optimism
I’m a Army ROTC graduate, and from my experience, you can’t really tell the ROTC/OCS grads from the West Pointers. My battalion and brigade commanders were ROTC/OCS graduates, and while I imagine you learn more from being immersed in military culture, rather than doing it ~20 hours a week, it becomes unimportant once you reach your first duty station. I don’t think we should close the service academies, but I understand there are cuts to ROTC scholarships at the moment, and I would hope there are cuts to service academy seats as well.
Also, prior enlisted officers are better at company-level because they are familiar with Army systems, but once they become field-grades, the difference mostly vanishes.
smintheus
I taught for a few years at USNA. Along with some of the other faculty, I thought that it probably should be shut down, and not just because of the excessive cost. Academy grads tend to be better at certain technical things (like driving boats) than ROTC officers, but they were much worse in other more important qualities (like being able and willing to think for themselves, or uphold rules and principles).
The Academies have created crazy environments over the years, pressure cooker atmospheres that trade off their promise of a top-notch education for conformity and smug self-satisfaction.
A high proportion of the best entering midshipmen would drop out after the first year, transferring to another (better) university just before they would have been committed to giving 5 years of service to the Navy. That was because they could see that educational standards were low and something close to insanity prevailed inside USNA. So the mids who remained were, with a few exceptions, less impressive than the 20% or so who dropped out. And quite a few of the remaining mids were atrocious students, or prone to cheating, dishonesty, and other forms of anti-social conduct. That was partly due to the Academy’s insistence on treating their education like 4 years of boot camp with few privileges for leave outside the Academy gates and tons of nutty, time-wasting exercises to build Academy spirit (or plug the holes in morale that constantly sprung from being infantilized for 4 dreary years).
By the end of their first year if not sooner, most mids loathed the experience. And from there it kept going downhill. The ones who wanted to study often couldn’t find opportunities to do so, what with all the nonsensical extra activities they were forced into. Daily, mids would fall asleep in class because they were often forced to stand watch all night on their empty dorm hallways (as if the damned building were a ship at sea).
And then mids graduate and too often rest on their laurels of being an Academy grad. The Academies sell a mystique in exchange for demanding the right to lord it over the students for 4 years. These free-floating “ring knockers” typically look terrible in comparison to the ROTC officers who graduated from good universities, especially during their first 5 or so years of service after the Academy. Some but not all of them eventually get over their residual Academy arrogance/resentments and become decent enough officers.
Shut the Academies down, I say. They’ve been incestuous cesspools for generations.
Comrade Dread
Promote competent and intelligent NCOs and either put them into an officer training program or let them populate the academies free of charge.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Worth keeping mind that both West Point and Annapolis were founded back in the day when the militia could do it all, fuck ya. And then the War of 1812 happened. I would think some kind of screening process for future military officers is a good thing – considering the potential for mischief there is with the military.
notoriousJRT
@Gindy51:
Annapolis graduates officers for the Navy and the Marines.
Ruckus
@raven:
Great pups!
Still can’t get over how much Lil Bit looks like my cocker, Bud. Maybe a bit smaller but coloration is spot on.
Jay Noble
“In my experience” Observations:
Most ROTC grads go active duty right away. Had several friends (male and female) who graduated, got commissioned, got married and went to their first duty station all in the same month. Many served in Desert Storm.
The Academies are certainly heavily “connected”. When I went to apply for a USNA nomination way back when, out of a possible 25 appointments from Nebraska (5 congress persons – 5 of each of their choices in at any one time), only one slot was available. So people had already been chosen before there were actually any openings.
But I also saw a couple of friends just a couple years younger appointed who went on their accomplishments.
The academic course loads were harrowing but as smintheus pointed out the extra-curricular stuff was a bit much to pile on. If I remember correctly, the course load was about one and half times that at a regular college and you were required to be in one sport and one club. And then there was of course the military corps stuff. The West Pointer didn’t make it thru but now has a doctorate, Air Force Cadet made it and works on the civilian side of the military.
There are other routes to the academies. My Plan B was to enlist and come in from that side. 85 appts. In ’79, people with my academic standing did not enlist so I figured I had a darn good shot. Didn’t count on failing the physical.
There is also legacy appt. that I think is worthy – All children of Medal of Honor Winners.
Should we close the Academies? Certainly not on the $ question. Considering all of the non-academic stuff in the price tag, it’s a pretty good bargain.
The other silliness? As with everything these days, Congress needs to do a better job. And the Commander in Chief.
Villago Delenda Est
I give you John McCain.
ROTC officers, and OCS officers, are every bit as good as Hudson High grads as far as the Army is concerned. Then there’s the infestation of Christianists in Colorado Springs.
Emily68
Way back in ~1974 when I was in grad school, a class-mate who’d been a grunt in Viet Nam mentioned to me that ROTC officers “were the worst.”
Dave
@Comrade Dread: This is late but the atmosphere of the academies would have to change to accommodate experienced NCO’s. Take a combat experienced NCO who may have well have been acting in an officers role at times and put them back into what is essentially glorified basic for teenagers with a healthy dose of self-fellatio well you have some problems. I lasted two weeks at ROTC, couldn’t take it seriously at all it was like pompous boy-scouts and when someone calls themselves cadet colonel or cadet SGM well it’s hard to keep a straight face. So I went back overseas. I do agree though that a significant portion of the officer corp should come from the enlisted ranks and service academies designed to accommodate their experience would be worthwhile (it’s interesting how the dynamic for NCOES has changed when a fair number of students have as much or more experience than the instructors it makes things a little weird). And it’s interesting to watch the difference in respect a former SSG that is now 2LT receives compared to the normal.
NCSteve
@Gindy51: The Marines have a service academy. It’s called “Annapolis.” @Tommy: The reason “that guy” is on TV is because he didn’t make it past the great “up or out” sorting that occurs at the O-6 to O-7 (lt. colonel to colonel for Army, Marines and Air Force and commander to captain in the Navy). When you’re forced into retirement because you’re not deemed to be in the bottom fifty percent of the people of your rank, what else is there to do but retire and become an “expert?”
Jado
Umm, if we get rid of our service academies, how are we going to be able to tell the quality difference in 2nd Lieutenants?
After all, there are all kinds of jobs that need doing by new 2nd Loos. If all of them are from normal civilian colleges, how do decide who to give the prestigious jobs to, and more importantly who to give the really crap jobs to? Just go by skin color?