The media wants panic or a fight on the Left – don’t give them either.
FrankenTrumpZilla is going to wreck shit on the Right. Sit back, relax and pass the popcorn. By the time those freaks are done with each other they will be completely unelectable.
4.
Parmenidesa
I’m a political junkie and this crap is getting old. I don’t blame the Clintons for it but holy hell people its July and the people who will start this process aren’t even paying enough attention to remember this in Febuary.
5.
Cacti
The Daily Beast, Politico, and Slate didn’t like it?
Well, that’s it.
Might as well just pack it up and go home.
6.
Turgidson
The chatterers are going to say Hillary came off cold and calculating no matter what. And if she puts too much effort into coming off warm and jovial, they’ll accuse her of being inauthentic and pandering.
Whatever. She should just campaign the way she thinks is best, talk to the media when she feels like it, do what she does. Haters gonna hate.
7.
James E Powell
Clinton needs to do something that will cause the message “the press/media hate me and you cannot trust anything they say about me” to be embedded in the minds of Americans. Otherwise, they are going to make the War on Gore look like a mild case of media bias.
Because that’s what this campaign has been so far, as one writer already revealed. It’s a game of Get Hillary and nothing more.
Clinton needs to do something that will cause the message “the press/media hate me and you cannot trust anything they say about me” to be embedded in the minds of Americans.
I’m pretty sure it’s already there.
She has consistently led every GOP challenger in national polling. And she has highly favorable ratings among the two biggest parts of the Obama coaltion: women and minorities. Until and unless the GOP can find a candidate to increase their standing with either group, everything from the media is just noise.
And let’s face it, there’s no way that Hillary would be getting less of the white vote than Obama did in 2012.
I like Bernie Sanders a lot more then Hillary Clinton, I’m not gonna pretend for a second however that the media would give a 73 year old self-proclaimed socialist a fair hearing in a general election.
Bernie is getting good press now because the media wants a dog and pony show. If he got the nomination the press would make Ted Cruz look mainstream in comparison.
14.
Tommy
@gian: I am one of those people. And although I don’t love Hillary, I also don’t dislike her. And if needed I will not only vote for her I will help her campaign to beat whatever clown she runs against.
” The Daily Beast, Politico, and Slate didn’t like it? ”
Well, it is just so amazing, ain’t it? And don’t forget Taylor Marsh didn’t like it (name sounds vaguely familiar, but exactly who is that and why should we care?)
The job CNN did was CNN worthy. Looks like first half was mostly rehash of email fake scandal, with some loaded questions with obviously incorrect premises.
In the parts I watched, HRC did not ask the reviewer whether she was a hack or an incompetent, so I give HRC some credit.
I’ll watch the whole thing later.
Did Cole actually watch it?
16.
piratedan
sorry, these fuckers are still petulant that Hilary isn’t granting them every and exclusive access, so what do we get? character assassination and nary a glimpse of what she’s actually speaking to and to whom she is speaking.
Fuck that shit, I could give a shit about if she’s wearing a halter top and high heels and what her facial expressions may or may not be implying… have those fuckers every actually listened and reported what she’s speaking about and the platform positions that she is establishing.
It’s high school yearbook confidential with these asshats, who feel they should be the one vetting the candidates and not people at the ballot box. Fuck them.
I like Bernie Sanders a lot more then Hillary Clinton, I’m not gonna pretend for a second however that the media would give a 73 year old self-proclaimed socialist a fair hearing in a general election.
Bernie is getting good press now because the media wants a dog and pony show. If he got the nomination the press would make Ted Cruz look mainstream in comparison.
That’s a very level-headed take.
Bernie certainly comes across as affable and personable in his media appearances.
But if ever he becomes the Democratic nominee, the “liberal” press will rake him over the coals in a way that he’s never experienced in his life. Just ask SoS Kerry, who watched the media assist in turning his US Navy service and decorations into a liability vs. a guy who served in the Texas National Guard.
I’d bet things looked pretty good for Al Gore in July ’99.
19.
bystander
The thing I wish for this election cycle is that Mike Allen start a GoFundMe page to pay for a lip plumping procedure. He will look so much better when he’s “interviewing” Jeb! if he doesn’t have those flat lips.
20.
Tommy
@Cacti: That is my take as well. I’ve been voting since the 80s. Not a single time has anybody I voted for or wanted to vote for in the primary made it to the general election. I hope that changes at least once in my lifetime but I am not holding my breath. Long ago I made peace with this.
21.
east is east
I will vote for Hillary but she has the personality of a turnip. I hope Biden jumps in.
So she’s not Obama. I have *never* seen a president – well, maybe JFK – as articulate, comfortable in his own skin, and comfortable with the press as Obama.
That, plus the press purity ponies and the Villagers aren’t going to cut her any breaks, no matter what, and she knows it.
The GOP and the press have been trying to nail one of the Clintons’ hides to the wall for almost a quarter century now.
I have zero problem with her arms-length approach to the political press. Just as I have no problem with Obama treating them as sophomoric and fundamentally unserious.
24.
Archon
The core problem for the political press interested in a horserace is they know that the Obama08/Obama12/GOPHELLyeah!!!16 voter doesn’t exist.
Short of some black swan event there just aren’t enough GOP voters to beat Hillary Clinton.
Otherwise, they are going to make the War on Gore look like a mild case of media bias.
Start girding your loins, because this is as inevitable as the rising sun.
27.
Betty Cracker
@jl: I brought up Taylor Marsh in the earlier thread because she was one of the most unhinged slobbering fangrrrls in all of PUMAdom back in the day, so it surprised me that she would find HRC’s performance lacking. But yeah, she’s an idiot, and who cares what she thinks. Haven’t had time to watch the interview myself.
28.
kc
Donald Trump said Wednesday that he believes he will win the Latino vote….
The GOP and the press have been trying to nail one of the Clintons’ hides to the wall for almost a quarter century now.
I came of age and really political aware while Bill and Hillary were in the White House. I couldn’t believe how savaged they were. That is why I am pretty sure I give her more of a benefit of doubt then I would somebody else in my party. It is just like hasn’t she dealt with enough BS already?
31.
the Conster
I hate our fucking asshat media clowns too, but that doesn’t mean Hillary comes across well. That shit matters. She looks like she’s been overcoached for an important job interview. Ugh.
32.
trollhattan
@kc: @Cacti:
Guessing it was something along the lines of, “The Latins love me. I’m YOOOOUGE with the Latins!”
33.
JMG
She did just fine, John. Boring, but fine. She’s not an exciting personality, so she’s way better off not trying to be one. She is diligent, persistent and has views well within the Democratic party mainstream. Speaking of Al Gore, he is well positioned to offer the denunciations of the political media Clinton cannot. So, oddly enough, is Sanders, who might well just do it.
34.
MBunge
Hillary isn’t as bad a politician as some, like me, make her out to be. But she is really awful at some of the basic skills and aptitudes needed by politicians.
I won’t indulge any BS psychoanalysis but I would guess the reasons Hilary is bad at politics are not the same as the reasons Mitt Romney is bad at politics.
Mike
35.
Baud
I didn’t see any of the interview, but based on the commentary, it appears that people’s opinions are about her personality rather than any of her substantive answers to the questions. Is that correct?
36.
MNDoug
Is John trolling us?
37.
jl
@Betty Cracker: I noted Marsh’s criticisms of HRC in the first part of the interview, so watched through the first couple of questions, then when I saw CNN was going to rehash the fake email thing, I started skipping through.
Seems to me Marsh criticized HRC for not responding properly to questions that were not really what the interviewer actually asked.
It was kind of a dud interview, but so what? And I don’t see how that was entirely HRC’s fault.
I just think it’s unfixable. The Clintons and political media are like a really bad marriage that never ends. It’s exhausting to watch. The grudges and gripes go back decades. She walks in with that.
I hope people get bored with it because it’s insular, right? It operates to exclude voters and it leads to media talking about media, which is boring. I’m kind of curious how younger people might see it. My daughter will vote for Cllnton versus any Republican and she’s (basically) not engaged on the whole political end- the political gamesmanship just doesn’t interest her. She knows the basic positions of the two Parties and she uses that as proxy to get to The Democrat. I wonder if you don’t know the whole history if you look at it differently.
I just think it’s unfixable. The Clintons and political media are like a really bad marriage that never ends. It’s exhausting to watch. The grudges and gripes go back decades. She walks in with that.
That may be why she’s decided not to be as accessible as the national media would like.
The people running the GOP would retroactively make primaries “unofficial” before they let Trump win the nomination.
It was about 5 days late but Trump’s camp leaking the idea of a potential 3rd party run will prevent the GOP from throwing the kitchen sink at him though.
” That may be why she’s decided not to be as accessible as the national media would like. ”
And what would the media ‘like’? Follow her around 24/7, mob her every campaign stop even though they turn into a human stampede, stare over her shoulder every minute and get every phone number, email, and scrap of paper and electronic file they wish for? Seems like it.
48.
east is east
@Baud: Perhaps. But she really isn’t so good when it comes to campaigning. Bill is really likable. Hillary is a good and focused person but she doesn’t make people smile. It matters.
49.
geg6
I also read all this PANIC NOW! commentary this morning. It bothered me a little. Then I read Charlie Pierce’s take and felt better. Then I caught some clips. She was fine. She answered the bullshit email questions just fine ( I would have just said fuck you and your email bullshit myself). She wasn’t Obama, but she doesn’t have to be. Obviously the media is out to get her. This will not endear the media or their memes about her to the people who have about had enough of the media: the youth, women and minorities. Fuck them. I’m not worried and I’m sure that if I feel that way, Hillary feels it magnitudes more.
50.
wasabi gasp
@Omnes Omnibus: Nothing short of confident that this performance by Hillary will also be a one-off. She’s shaking it loose at the gate. Getting her sea legs. Feeling the boin.
My daughters generation doesn’t get their information from legacy media and they don’t vote Republican, but they do feel like voting doesn’t really matter. This Hillary/press dynamic feeds into that sense of being in one of those They Shoot Horses Don’t They campaign marathons that everyone ends up hating.
52.
Baud
@east is east: Agree. It’s the whole “Who would you like to have a beer with?” issue. Liberals usually don’t like to think that way, however.
53.
Corner Stone
Cole can’t help himself and we’re just gonna have to give it up to Jesus on this issue.
Just like her recent FDR Island speech in NYS. That was one hell of a speech. That was a barn burner of a speech. It’s just too damned bad that it was wrapped into a mediocre delivery. That’s just who she is. As long as she keeps talking about the things she describes in that speech, she’ll be fine.
54.
Baud
@jl: Their demands won’t stop, but they probably would like more press conferences and interviews than they are getting.
ETA: Hillary is ratings gold compared to any other candidate right now.
55.
Corner Stone
Does anyone keep track of the press in Germany when elections come around? How does Merkel fair in the press?
56.
Tommy
@Baud: How about it. Again I am not a huge Clinton fan. But even far-right Republican Senators say Hillary when she served stuck her head down and worked. Worked her rear end off.
Then you know she was SoS, which has to be about the second or third most important position in our government.
What more does she have to do to get a little respect from the media, well anybody really?
57.
Bobby Thomson
@Omnes Omnibus: your accomplishment has been witnessed.
58.
Keith P.
Last primary she was the same way…then she got emotional in a debate, and pundits were suddenly gushing over her, and her poll numbers jumped. I think it’s a strategy of letting a certain narrative build before blowing it open.
59.
Bobby B.
To paraphrase “Funeral In Berlin”, she’s trussed up in her organization like an old and intractable turkey.
Just ask SoS Kerry, who watched the media assist in turning his US Navy service and decorations into a liability vs. a guy who may or may not have served in the Texas National Guard.
@Corner Stone: Not too well, every time I’ve been there. But I stick to the liberal (aka ‘populated’) areas. Most of the country isn’t Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt.
Der Spiegel is maybe the most even-keeled source you’ll find and they aren’t huuuuuge fans, rather nationalist but still to the left of, say, The Economist. That’s not sarcasm, I like The Economist most of the time, although sometimes their slip is showing, as it were.
Last time I was in Munich was during the mayoral election there, and they had the strangest signs. The conservative candidate’s slogan was roughly “let’s move Bavaria forward”, and the socialist candidate’s slogan was roughly “let Bavaria stay Bavaria”. It’s the exact opposite of what we have here. The socialist won, needless to say.
No question. But that just means her personality isn’t a fatal liability. I think few people would describe her as charismatic. Certainly not compared to Obama or Bill, or possibly even W. But I can’t think of anyone of the GOP side who is either, so maybe it doesn’t matter.
They want her to forgive and forget what they’ve done to her and her friends and family for decades. They want her to fluff them and pet them and offer donuts and BBQ and tire swings. They want her to discuss her sense of betrayal from her husband. They want her to say she loves and admires and needs them more than anything or anyone. They want her to bow down to the Village and beg them to let her in. Fuck them.
66.
Tommy
@Baud: I get most people want somebody to have a beer with. I could care less. All I care about is you are good at your job.
‘ It’s the whole “Who would you like to have a beer with?” issue. ‘
GW was a shrewd campaigner, and people thought they would like to have a beer with him, to drink.
Not sure how much of the voter’s beer would be drunk and how much would end up in the GOPe’rs face with this cycle’s crew.
Maybe difficult to suss out the significance of the ‘beer with’ primary this time. (Edit: I can think of some slogans, like ‘Jeb!’s sneer looks better with beer’)
68.
mclaren
Herding the press along with ropes? I’m all for it. In fact, the Clintons should’ve chipped the press like dogs and used TV remote controls to stimulate their pain centers if they asked stupid questions. I personally would love to see sociopathic self-entitled asshole ignorami like Luke Russert and Maureen Dowd writhing in agony on the asphalt while shitting themselves uncontrollably.
I’ve never been a huge fan of the Clintons (either of them), but the more they are unfairly demonized in the press, the more I’ll defend them*. This has been true since the “little woman baking cookies” days of the 1992 primary season, and continues to this day.
*The exception being 2008, when I was an Obama supporter from Day One.
Certainly not compared to Obama or Bill, or possibly even W.
Good babby christ. That may be one of the worst things I’ve seen said about her.
71.
HRA
My question is where is the personal enthusiasm for a campaign for president from HRC? She showed it in 2008.
Yes, I know Mark Penn was blamed for her loss in 2008. He at least did not interfere with her by reining in her personality.
She should have met all the bad press head on and early. There will soon be a “what are they hiding” aspect of her campaign if they keep her more cloistered with little meetings at homes of the faithful.
Really? W. was a lot of awful things, but he had (and won based on) his personality, IMHO.
73.
LWA
I was a die hard Republican conservative in 1992, and by 1998 was calling myself a “disgusted former Republican” and it was almost entirely due to the antics of the GOP during that decade.
The GOP and the Beltway media somehow thought, and still think, that the average voter gives a crap about the Clinton Scandal Of The Week.
So yeah, take off and nuke it from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.
I personally would love to see sociopathic self-entitled asshole ignorami like Luke Russert and Maureen Dowd writhing in agony on the asphalt while shitting themselves uncontrollably.
I am completely against this notion. And yet…something about it feels so right.
” Luke Russert and Maureen Dowd writhing in agony on the asphalt while shitting themselves uncontrollably. ”
Your suggestion is uncivil and gratuitously cruel. And why bother with chips and electric shocks when you can get more response by merely speaking plainly to them?
Again I am not a huge Clinton fan. But even far-right Republican Senators say Hillary when she served stuck her head down and worked. Worked her rear end off.
I could be wrong, but I think I hear the word Benghazi about a million times more than I hear “Clinton worked hard” from far-right Republican Senators…
78.
Bobby Thomson
@Baud: haven’t seen anything that contradicts that.
I personally would love to see sociopathic self-entitled asshole ignorami like Luke Russert and Maureen Dowd writhing in agony on the asphalt while shitting themselves uncontrollably.
That, a date with a supermodel, and the FEMA camps for the Fox News crowd.
She should have met all the bad press head on and early.
So, back in 1991?
81.
FlipYrWhig
Jesus. Once again I think I’m the only person who remembers the blogosphere pummeling Elizabeth Warren for being unexciting on the stump and not having a big enough lead against Scott Brown. And that was the summer before the election, not a whole fucking year ahead of time. And I also don’t remember many people ever enthusing over Barack Obama’s interview skillz either. Who shines in an interview? What performance do people have in mind that this falls short of?
82.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: Yeah, never cut any ice with me, I always saw him as an overgrown smug, spoiled fratboy with a streak of entitlement a mile wide and 20,000 leagues deep, but a whole lot of people fell for that “Ah’m the kinda fella what can reach ‘cross the aisle…”. Especially in 2000
One the dumb, if very minor, things Gore did was try to throw Bush off during a debate by standing close to him, as Clinton had successfully done (intentionally, I don’t know) to Dole in ’96. Bush paused, looked at Gore, gave him a kind of “Hi, can I help you?” nod and won the crowd. So much so that the hideous old troll that birthed him didn’t need to go on TV later that week and say “I thought he was going to hit George!” but she did.
I just think it’s unfixable. The Clintons and political media are like a really bad marriage that never ends.
This is the “both sides do it” narrative, and that’s complete horseshit.
Read The Hunting of the President. The mainstream media eagerly became complicit in echoing insane lies about Bill Clinton when anyone with half a goddamn brain knew it was lunacy. Vince Foster was allegedly murdered, Bill Clinton supposedly uses Arkansas state troops to kill witnesses to his alleged multiple rapes of women staffers, there was something purportedly sinister about Bill Clinton’s Christmas card list…his goddamn CHRISTMAS CARD LIST fer cripes sake!
Abject lunacy.
And yet the mainstream press parrotted this craziness as though it had some kind of credibility.
Fuck the press.
I’m with Cole on this one, the more the New York Times bloviates against Hillary, the more I’m inclined to support her. What the fuck is next, accusations that she’s a lesbian and she wiped her State Department emails to cover up her trysts with all her lesbian lovers?
C’mon, Kay, this is not a case of “both sides do it.” This is the mainstream press going batshit insane and losing even the semblance of common sense whenever the name “Clinton” pops up on their radar.
84.
FlipYrWhig
@HRA: I’m already disappointed by the NEXT Democratic frontrunner!
Really? W. was a lot of awful things, but he had (and won based on) his personality, IMHO.
Dubya’s jovial personality is probably what kept him from being run out of town on a rail by 2007.
If he had a Nixonian demeanor, he wouldn’t have lasted to 2008.
86.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: Obama: weak in debate, I just wanna eat my waffles, above my pay grade… I”m sure there were other moments in ’08 that presaged his inevitable collapse.
87.
east is east
If Biden joins the race he will win.
88.
Tommy
@SiubhanDuinne: When I moved from Baton Rouge to DC I moved with this lady I was dating. Loved the lady. Only person I might have ever thought about asking to marry me (maybe too much info). Early in Bill Clinton’s first term.
If I drove someplace I had music on. If she drove, Rush was on. Clearly we knew we had different political views. It pushed us apart. I am like how can this be acceptable discourse to you. We both got MAs in Journalism from LSU.
And it’s true that she really doesn’t have to. She actually doesn’t have to introduce herself and it’s okay by me if she recognizes that’s a tactical advantage.
As you know because I blather about it endlessly I think there’s a lot of economic insecurity that is centered around people who might be “Hillary voters” so I’m hoping what might be “dull” or “scripted” to political media might be “reassuring” or “reliable” to those people. I keep seeing that she has this huge gender gap and one lower middle group that Democrats do okay with is lower middle or working class women. That’s a group where “exciting!” can sound a whole lot like “risky”- maybe “reliable” or “really persistent” s something they might value.
I’m too young to do much more than observe Hillary Derangement Syndrome. It makes no goddamned sense to me. Maybe it’s because my mom is kinda like Hillary in a lot of ways, and I’ve seen the shit she has to put up with my whole life, I dunno.
Yeah, with all the latest Sanders buzz, I was wondering what your take was given your focus on economic insecurity. His policies may ultimately be better for folks, but will they be scared off with his grand vision of change?
It isn’t “both sides do it”. It’s “these people are trapped together and no matter who is at fault they can’t break out of this box”. Their hunting led to her caution and it just goes ’round and ’round.
There will soon be a “what are they hiding” aspect of her campaign
Um, have you been keeping up? that is ground zero for a Clinton, always.
97.
jl
@Cacti: I agree. GW knew how to present himself to attract and establish a strong emotional connection with a certain kind of personality. And that is a political gift of a sort. Not enough of a gift to get a majority of votes in the first election. And a lot of people can see through it to a bully and manipulator, and a not very bright manipulator who can easily be manipulated himself until disaster looms.
I think GW’s political campaigning gifts need to be recognized, since they work on enough people to swing an election.
98.
Gin & Tonic
@Major Major Major Major: Bavaria is different, though. I have Bavarian friends, even young ones, who say “I’m not German, I’m Bavarian.”
99.
mai naem mobile
I’m too old for this shit. I like Sanders and I’ll even vote for him in the primary if hes around for our primary. Barring a catastrophe Hill’s going to be our candidate and thats okay. I wish she was looser in the way she speaks but she’s better than all the other side on media skills except maybe if Kasich jumps in. She isn’t Obama but Obama is extraordinary so give her a break. Also pray that Trump ends up being the GOP candidate. I know the whole SNL line up and late night comedians are praying for that.
Maybe Hillary should give the reporters following her around insulting frat boy nicknames and be dickish to them in a more playful way. That worked for a certain two-term dipshit who got the media to run cover for his atrocities for far longer than it took the country to identify (most of) them for themselves.
But…for some reason I don’t think they’d take as kindly to that sort of thing if it came from Hillary Clinton and not a faux cowboy [male] asshole.
101.
Betty Cracker
I think HRC is at her best when she lets her true Leslie Knope nature shine through. She’s an earnest list maker and policy wonk. That can be endearing in its own way. At least to people who like “Parks and Rec.”
@mclaren: I enjoyed that comment more than anything you’ve ever written. Especially the shitting themselves part. Bravo.
but he had (and won based on) his personality, IMHO.
I disagree. He was in contention because of outright lying about “compassionate conservatism”, and attendant claims. That whole “have a beer with” shit was conjured up whole cloth by the same guys that produced a black child of Sen McCain.
He’s the guy who abused his younger brother and enjoyed it, mocked an inmate on death row, and basically incurioused his way around TX for years.
Probably a few dead animals along the way in his backtrail.
103.
Gin & Tonic
@Corner Stone: Luke Russert and Maureen Dowd writhing in agony on the asphalt while shitting themselves uncontrollably.
I, on the other hand, would pay good cash money to see that.
She should have met all the bad press head on and early.
This is the equivalent of a deep pockets law firm burying a small time plaintiff in a law suit with paper after paper. They flood the underfunded claimant with so much time consuming requests, etc, that they have no resources to meet and eventually just submit to defeat.
If she followed your advice of engaging the bad press she’d never have time to do any other damn thing. Like run for president, for example.
Because the press would be only too happy to turn the bullshit generator up to elebenty.
A lot of Reagan’s aura was manufactured too. But the point isn’t whether they were really nice guys or not, but whether they had the people skills to pull it off.
106.
Tommy
@Major Major Major Major: You know count yourself lucky you didn’t live through it. My mom might be like your mother and Hillary.
She isn’t that emotional. Can be somewhat stand-offish. And frankly in any room she is in she tries to take control. My dad, brother, and I call her the “little general.” We don’t have the guts to say it to her face :).
I used to dislike this but now as I am older I freaking love it.
107.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@mai naem mobile: He won’t be teh candidate, but I don’t think they can get away from the bigotry on immigration. Last round it helped take Perry down, caused a lot of problems for Romney, it helped take down Eric Cantor, who was supposed to be waiting to axe Boehner from the right, and Boehner sacrified a bipartisan reform bill to Steve King.
La Raza that is having their big annual convention this weekend, HRC, Sanders and O’Malley will be there. No Republican candidates.
And after she does all that, they’ll run off to write scathing opinion pieces about how insincere and fake she is.
Like I said before, she should just do what she thinks is right and let the media be insecure, sniveling crybabies they are. Let surrogates talk shit about them here and there, but stay above it.
That’s what Obama has been doing, most of the time, since the media belatedly realized that he thinks they’re morons and devoted their lives to taking potshots at him and asking “is this Obama’s Katrina?” every time someone in his administration farts. He’s mostly winning that war. Hillary can too.
I see Sanders differently than you do, I think. I think the part of his message they are responding to is “we don’t get policy that benefits most people because plutocrats have too much influence”. I think it’s a kind of explanation for a lot of people. It’s not “we don’t get single payer and that sucks”. It’s “here’s WHY we don’t get single payer”
I think his argument is much bigger than “more liberal”. So, I think what he’s really talking about could be huge, maybe should be huge, but I don’t think most people are there yet -they aren’t yet willing to say “government works exclusively for the 1% and now what should we do about that?” Because we’d have to do a LOT. A lot would have to change, starting with campaign finance.
I saw a good piece about him where the writer said Sanders had this advantage in Vermont- small population, liberal state, he didn’t have to beg for money and that kept him “unbought and unbowed”. That seems true to me but would that work in Ohio or Florida? I don’t know.
You know count yourself lucky you didn’t live through it. My mom might be like your mother and Hillary.
She isn’t that emotional. Can be somewhat stand-offish. And frankly in any room she is in she tries to take control. My dad, brother, and I call her the “little general.” We don’t have the guts to say it to her face :).
I used to dislike this but now as I am older I freaking love it.
Hillary also came of age in an era where women showing outward emotion was taken as proof of their unfitness for “a man’s work”, or if they were particularly smiley and friendly, male colleagues were certain it meant you wanted to sleep with them.
Even now, if Hillary tried to be jocular, it would be held up as proof of her unseriousness.
112.
gelfling545
@Baud: I don’t honestly see why she should go out of her way for them. It’s not as if they will ever say anything positive about her or her campaign without at least hinting about something negative even if they can’t think up anything specific right at the moment. She’s seen this all before. She may as well go with her own preferences and not stress over it.
but she’s better than all the other side on media skills except maybe if Kasich jumps in.
Did you see that clip of Kasich talking about what may possibly happen in a few days if he decides to announce? That was epic fail to its most epic failingest. That guy is such a raw asshole he just can’t hide it any longer. I had the sound off for part of it and i was physically recoiling just watching him.
114.
bobbo
I like Hillary. I think she is funny and smart. And needless to say she is a good Democrat.
For me, simply talking about what’s wrong doesn’t do a whole lot because I’m not interested in commiserating with elected officials. Ultimately, I think you need a positive agenda to sell. But I’m far from in tune with most other voters.
116.
Tommy
@Kay: Read about Huey Long. He had the same messages more than half a century ago. There are many that think if he wasn’t killed he might have won the Presidency on said message. I am not saying Long is Sanders. Huey was a messed up crook. But the populist messages and government working for people are similar on many levels.
He’s bad at…talking. Like so many governors when he hits the national I think people will say “well, THAT was disappointing” :)
It’s rare, right? There aren’t a whole lot of real “naturals” in anything. That’s why everyone can list them. There are like 5 in modern presidential politics going back decades. It’s a tiny group of people.
I think HRC is at her best when she lets her true Leslie Knope nature shine through.
I’m surprised I hadn’t thought of that before, because I’m an avid fan of P & R. It really works well, especially through the prism of those episodes where the conflict is essentially “everyone else in my life is an idiot, but I help them in spite of themselves, because they’re generally decent, they need it, and that’s what public service is.” Which is most of them, really.
120.
trollhattan
Obama is possibly a once-in-a-lifetime politician. Remember his Berlin reception in 2008? Still “just a senator” at that point.
Nobody running or thinking of running has or can generate that kind of buzz and let’s be honest, after eight years of Dubya the entire globe was absolutely primed for it.
Right, but “crook” would take him right out, Tommy. Sanders is opposed to crooks :)
He thinks THE PROBLEM is crooks. That’s why it’s not necessarily “liberal”. It’s bigger. It could encompass conservatism as long as the policy wasn’t being directed by monied interests. He says it. He says there are people in Congress on the “other side of the aisle” who know that plutocrats are purchasing policy. I always think “OMG, NAME them, Bernie and we’ll settle this right now!” :)
It was about 5 days late but Trump’s camp leaking the idea of a potential 3rd party run will prevent the GOP from throwing the kitchen sink at him though.
Trump as spoiler? Excellent.
It would be wonderful to see these arguments on right-wing blogs in 2017… “We would have won in 2016 if Trump hadn’t jumped in and taken votes from Jeb (Walker, Cruz or whoever)” “Bullshit! Don’t blame Trump! Blame Jeb (Walker, Cruz or whoever)!”
Yup, I saw that, too, and was just shocked. All the talk about Kasich is about how he’s so likeable and great at the media game. I watched it with sound and it might have been the worst, most uncomfortable presser by someone not under indictment or doing a mea culpa for cheating on the wife that I’ve ever seen. And that’s saying something. I’m old enough to remember Nixon doing pressers well before Watergate. When you come off more uncomfortable than Tricky Dick, you’ve got a big problem.
124.
Tommy
@Cacti: Yes what you said. Anytime my mother is in a room she is the smartest person in the room. She stopped going to college with her BA because, well me. You stayed at home and raised your kids. That was what women did at the time. Or about 99% of them.
There was a pretty good episode of Modern Family where the mom is challenging an incumbent local official (played by david cross) who has done absolutely nothing. When she’s prepping for the big debate, her family keeps pointing out all these things she does that she shouldn’t do (e.g. pointing at her opponent), and the more they point stuff out the more stressed she gets, and the more stressed she gets the more it shows. Anyway, she pulls it all together at the debate and is doing a great job until the opposition raises some embarrassing story from her personal life, and in a matter of seconds she reverts to all her worst habits, doing everything her family told her not to do all at once.
In some ways this is the same crap HIllary is dealing with. She’s constantly being judged not based on what she’s saying but on how she says it. Her opponents and the press want to talk about anything other than the issues at hand. And they’ve gotten her so wound up and paranoid that it’s bringing out all her worst habits.
She may have been intelligent, hot, all the attributes, but from just the little you’ve shared I think you would have been miserable. You made the right call.
128.
tazj
I watched a good part of the interview on CNN and thought she did just fine. She came across as pleasant, and not sour and defensive and that is what I feared from what I read above. I think if she had made some terrible gaffe or had gotten snippy CNN and everyone else would be gleefully running with that.
Interesting. I haven’t seen Kasich on my TV too much, but one of the times I saw him was after the Ohio voters told him to shove his union busting agenda up his ass. He was actually somewhat contrite and humble about it, and almost seemed sincere. But since then I’ve read all about how much of an insufferable asshole he is. I guess there’s something to that.
He’s easily their scariest candidate on paper and fits the Villagers’ idea of what Republicans are or ought to be to a tee. Twice elected to the most important swing state, second time in a romp. Not particularly outspoken or scary on cultural wedge issues. High-profile, popular deviations with party orthodoxy (mostly the Medicaid expansion) to prove he’s one of those “mavericks” they so love. Has at least some personality.
But the Medicaid expansion and his moralizing defense of it to GOP bigwigs probably forecloses any chance he’ll catch on. Being an insufferable prick and unable to tamp it down for interviews won’t help.
130.
Tommy
@Kay: Huey did amazing things, amazing for the state of Louisiana. But he saw it as a way to grift off a part for himself and his supporters. By everyway possible he was corrupt to his core. But he did a lot of good stuff. I could and would argue that much of what he did is the current infrastructure of the entire state.
She stopped going to college with her BA because, well me. You stayed at home and raised your kids. That was what women did at the time. Or about 99% of them.
That’s what financially secure, married, white women did at some points of our recent past. I’m surrounded by a significant number that continue to do that to this day.
Lots of people didn’t have the option.
134.
Germy Shoemangler
@Corner Stone: Most moms I knew had to go to work whether they wanted to or not. “Plenty of snacks in the fridge, and here’s the house key. Come straight home after school and make sure your homework gets done.”
135.
Germy Shoemangler
@Davis X. Machina: I remember that, and it scared the crap out of me. Does anyone know what happened to Obama during that debate. It’s almost like he’d said to himself “fuck it”
But the populist messages and government working for people are similar on many levels.
The rhetoric of “government working for people” can be applied in very different ways. The people in Wisconsin who voted three times for Scott Walker would tell you that he is all about government working for people. They never really say which people.
@Kay: Pretty soon it’s going to cure cancer and solve interstellar travel.
Did you happen to see the NYT shot of the sweat shop in Vietname they used the other day for an article? Pacific Trade Deal Negotiators See a Wrap in Late July
My father finished his PhD. She worked to pay for it. I kid you not, because I couldn’t make this up. For Edwin Edwards while dad was at LSU. Months later I was born and she stayed at home to raise me.
Seemed like a combination of complacency (he had a fairly huge lead at that point, post 47% tape, and might have come in thinking the debates weren’t going to really matter as long has he didn’t say something outrageous), fatigue, and exasperation that Romney showed up to the debate, promptly disowned the entire GOP platform he’d been campaigning on for a year, and lied so rapidly that he couldn’t even keep count of them all, while the “moderator” Lehrer sat quietly and tried not to nod off.
146.
Germy Shoemangler
@Turgidson: That’s the best summation I’ve ever seen of that debate.
and exasperation that Romney . . . promptly disowned the entire GOP platform he’d been campaigning on for a year, and lied so rapidly that he couldn’t even keep count of them all
I think this explained 97% of Obama’s performance.
What pisses me off is they give the contemptible moron clowns running under the Republicans a complete pass… It is despicable! Any one of these clowns would bring down our country if elected. Most are rich, corrupt and STUPID beyond understanding.
Hillary has her personality quirks — but they are what make her an individual. She seems more relaxed than before. I am mostly ignoring the bullshit from the media and assume they are just doing what they do.
Well, but the quid pro quo transactional stuff is what he’s opposed to. I recognize you’re talking about some “simpler” time where he was just handing out jobs at the post office or whatever, but Sanders is talking about bigger fish- regulators going right to work for the entities they regulate, that sort of thing. He’s expanding the definition of “corruption” to a broader idea than “X violated Y federal law on campaign contributions” or “X went to work for private sector entity X was regulating 364 days after leaving government employ instead of 365 days”. His idea of “pay to play” is larger than our current legal framework. It really took shape on the Left after Citizens, because there was that breezy “oh, this will never lead to CORRUPTION” attitude there. They meant “actionable corruption that violates a law” not general, systemic bought and paid-ness.
152.
JPL
I’ve been reading tweets and/or watching CSPAN’s coverage of the Confederate Battle Flag. One of the many amendments being voted on had to do with replacing it with a white flag, for surrender.
I was, in some ways, very fortunate. I married in 1964 (yes, for those of you counting on your fingers, that is 51 years ago). Even then, neither my husband nor I had the slightest interest in having children. My own mother was fine with the decision — she might have had a very different life if she had had the contraceptive options I enjoyed, and I think was quite envious of me. My mother-in-law, OTOH, was furious, thought I was selfish (never thought to cast judgement on her own son), and I think never forgave me, although we were on friendly terms when she died in 2001.
154.
trollhattan
@Turgidson:
Kasich is “the nice Scott Walker.” We’ll see how far that takes him.
We are so on the same page. They keep showing them smiling in empty factories. Yesterday was Peru. I love the hard hats. They’re afraid some exhausted laborer will fall on their heads from above? Is that where the people who work there are?
160.
JPL
@trollhattan: All they need is one amendment to pass in order to kill the Senate bill. One amendment had to do with changing the flagpole to honor the blacks that fought bravely for the confederate.
I’m still not sure it will pass.
161.
Germy Shoemangler
In 1989, Donald Trump took out an ad in the Daily News, and three other newspapers, about the Central Park jogger rape case, in which he declared that the “criminals of every age” who had been arrested twelve days earlier—five African-American and Hispanic teen-agers—were “crazed misfits,” part of “roving bands.” “BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY,” the ad read. “BRING BACK OUR POLICE!” Years after it turned out that someone else had committed the crime, and the young men had finally been released from prison, Trump wrote an unapologetic op-ed for the paper in which he called the city’s push for restitution payments to the men “a disgrace.” He made it plain that, to him, their lives were nothing, and, besides, “These young men do not exactly have the pasts of angels.”
“Nice” in a policy sense, but apparently not temperamentally.
And I think part of the reason he’s considered an afterthought is because he’s managed to piss off too many of the GOP’s moneymen with his Medicaid stance (and maybe even more importantly, his surprisingly compassionate – anathema to many GOP fundraisers – defense of that decision when confronted).
He seems like this cycle’s Huntsman. Which sucks for him and for the GOP’s near term future, but good for Hillary and for mankind. Things can change, but I don’t think any of other GOP clowns in the car stand a chance against her right now.
The sheer number of people and peoples who Trump has managed to insult, bully, and mistreat is, in its way, awe-inspiring. He congratulated Alejandro González Iñárritu for winning numerous Oscars for “Birdman” with this gracious remark: “Well, it was a great night for Mexico, as usual in this country.” He once told Bryant Gumbel, in an interview for an NBC program on race, what he thought about affirmative action: “If I was starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated black, because I really do believe they have the actual advantage today.” In the seventies, the Trump real-estate company was sued by the Justice Department for racial discrimination in its rental practices in Brooklyn, Staten Island, and Queens. After settling the case with Trump, the Justice Department sued yet again for non-compliance.
168.
Just Some Fuckhead
Am I still on The List, or do I have to reapply each new thread?
169.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m gleaning from twitter that Keith Olbmermann got fired again, or more likely, you-can’t-fire-me-I-quitted again. Anybody know for sure?
ETA: In other sports news
Breaking News @ BreakingNews 27m27 minutes ago
New York Giants’ Jason Pierre-Paul has right index finger amputated after fireworks accident, medical records show
It’s very liberating to not care at all about any of the Democratic candidates. I will still do my phonebanking/GOTV gig for the Democratic nominee but honestly I don’t like any of them–at all. I also plan to just enjoy every day Pres O and his family are in the White House.
172.
Suzanne
Hillary was fine. Everyone who’ storied about it needs to chill the fuck out.
I think that her being a Clinton is part of the reason she gets this shit, but I honestly believe that a large part of why she’s seen as not likeable is because she’s a woman who is smarter than 99.8% of these dudes—reporters, other pols, etc. It is one of those sexist holdovers that smart women are seen as threatening and/or emasculating.
She’s not a warm, snuggly type. Neither am I. And I left my last job in part because I was told, “You are great and really smart and you do a fabulous job and your clients love you and if you left, this office would be crippled. But some of the interns are scared of you and don’t like you. You need to smile a lot and touch people in a friendly way.” Yeah, I quit that fucking job. That is exactly the kind of bullshit that women still have to put up with. Why the fuck do people expect her to be a cuddle bear?
@Just Some Fuckhead: Still hoping for that Christmas card from Cole, eh?
176.
Corner Stone
@Suzanne: And no, I am not on that book/face place.
Sorry, I was laughing too hard last night to reply.
177.
SiubhanDuinne
This seems to have turned into an open thread, although I don’t think it really is one. But what the heck, what the heck. (EDIT: I will repeat this in the next open thread that comes along.)
I am heading up to NoVA in a few days. I have a commitment on Saturday 11 July (more than a commitment — I will be seeing Ruth Bader Ginsburg give a lecture on”The Law in Opera” at the Castleton Music Festival), am free as a bird on Sunday and Monday, hoping for a BJ meetup with Valdivia, Elizabelle, and Shana (and anyone else who can join in. Steeplejack?) on Tuesday, committed Wednesday with friends from the Canadian Embassy, and then I’m heading up to Boston to celebrate a dear friend’s 70th birthday.
Anyone who can participate on Tuesday the 14th (Bastille Day), do stay tuned for details of place and time. If you’re not available on Tuesday but would still be interested in a NoVA/DC meetup Sunday or Monday, 12-13 July, please shoot me an email at SiubhanDuinne (at) gmail (dot) com.
I have to agree with mclaren 100% here. The media/press has completely given up on any sense of morals or professional ethics in order to savage any Democratic office-holder or candidate that the masters of the universe point the at.
The absurd accusations against the Clintons when Bill ran for office the first time were a good example of the obvious prejudice urban media drones feel for anyone from a rural state, where the drink of choice isn’t a dirty martini with a Cuban cigar. They treated Bill like he was an uneducated moron (instead of Harvard / Rhodes scholar!!) and Hillary like she was a tramp he picked up in a pool hall, instead of a lawyer with the same education as Bill.
They blasted both Clintons for the entire 8 years Bill served as one of the better Presidents we have ever had, with a total lack of care for truth, justice, or the American way. Despicable is just one of the words to describe the behavior of the press which is printable and suitable for the youth.
If I was with the Clinton campaign, I would make sure to have our own cameras set up for any interview, so that we would have film of what was asked and how, and the response Hillary gave, to put the CNN dirt grubbers on notice that they can’t mess with the film AT ALL in any way or heads will roll. For any interview, for any discussion, debate, any time the enemy has cameras, Hillary needs cameras, pointing at the people who are going to attempt to slime her with falsehoods and repuiblican accusations that don’t hold water.
This is going to be a dirty fight, and one of the ways these guys fight dirty is to mess with your images. If you have the real images, without halting hesitations, just for a tiny example, then they may not even attempt it. But you know those propaganda artists are thinking about any way to make her look weak, indecisive, feminine when she needs to be hard.
I got an Obama bumper sticker and put in on our 2006 Jetta the day after he declared and official campaign stuff was available. It was still there when we traded it last summer. I also had on on my pickup truck, which I bought in August, 2008. It was still there when we rolled the truck on I-25 in northern New Mexico.
Now I’m gonna get a Hillary bumper sticker for the new VW we bought when we got rid of the Jetta. I’m feeling like I need to get a PU truck, maybe a used F-150 or a Ram Tradesman, the neighbor has one that I like a lot. Hillary stickers would look good on that kind of vehicle!
I’m gonna do phone banking, contribute money, not just for Hillz but also for local races. Until the day I can’t make a phone work, or can’t remember the candidate’s name, I’m going to be fighting the republicans and their nazi candidates!
@mclaren: And this comment is pure gold. Just wait for them to go off track into the weeds with republican accusations instead of professional questions, and push the button, to watch then suffer for their terrible unethical and unprofessional behavior!
I’m pretty sure your more than questionable taste in music sealed that option off quite some time ago.
185.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: There’s friendly and there’s friendly. Oddly, both can get you sued.
186.
Elizabelle
Open thread?
Thinking of young Lovey, going in tomorrow for spaying and probably wondering why she’s not snacking as usual tonight.
Pet pic would be great; Cole’s pups, cat, or indoor deer.
Or Lovey.
187.
Suzanne
@Corner Stone: Last night’s thread had me in hysterics. Because I am evil.
@Germy Shoemangler: They only cared because they were understaffed and couldn’t find people at the actual skill levels they needed, so they hired shit-tons of interns. Literally over half of the office was interns when I left. Some of the interns were good. Some of them were lazy pieces of shit and they didn’t like that I expected work to get done on time, even if it meant staying past 5pm. I refused to smile at them. Seriously, I was told that my leadership style should be to make them love me so much that they wouldn’t want to disappoint me. I said that this was not elementary school and that I have my own friends.
HRC is basically getting this same shit. Shit that, I will note, no one ever thinks of saying to a man.
@Corner Stone: My tastes in music were pretty mainstream in my day, junior. Now get off my lawn.
190.
Suzanne
@Corner Stone: They wanted me to touch people warmly on the arm and shoulder, give hugs, etc. I don’t do any of that unless I’m drunk.
I am not a cold person, far from it, but I don’t like to touch people in that setting. So apparently I am read as bitchy. (I was also told that I have a “stony” look, so I told my boss about the term “resting bitch face”.) Oh well.
Greece is formally in default on its loans and in the weeks ahead as more IMF and EU loans come due, Greece is about to slide into fiscal oblivion. This is the natural and unavoidable consequence of socialism everywhere it has been tried.
Financial collapse.
Greece is already overtaxed, and adding more taxing the few businesses that are still functioning is only going to ensure their eventual demise too. Meanwhile the Greek citizens have come to the conclusion that fat pensions and cradle to grave welfare benefits are a human right that can never be taken away. That is what they declared in the referendum. But those benefits are going to be taken away. Socialism has radically reduced the standard of living of the citizens.
All of the conventional EU and IMF solutions – two of Greece’s top creditors – side step the root cause of the Greek tragi-comedy. The Greek citizens are simply living way, way beyond their means.
@Corner Stone: With all due respect to HRC, yesterday happened and is known; I don’t need to believe in Yesterday.
196.
Keith G
So the guy John links to begins his post by typing:
I still haven’t watched Hillary Clinton’s CNN interview, but it got awful reviews, even from some of her admirers. Poynter’s Benjamin Mullin collects some review quotes:
Christ on a one legged snapping turtle.
Maybe we should give the readership here 24 hours to have a chance to fit in time to watch and then get back to comment.
FWIW..I think most folks are not following this stuff. Even political junkies I know are on summer mode and more concerned about a host of other things.
If this keeps up, I may have to re-connect with my substance abuse counselor. Things are getting too weird too early for me and in the field of weird I turned pro a long time ago.
197.
kimora
@Suzanne: Exactly. I get tired of that shit too.I do not come to work to be your Mama…I left my kids at home.
PRAIRIE VILLAGE, KS — “I won’t be running anything else from Stephen Moore.”
So says Miriam Pepper, editorial page editor of the Kansas City Star—and not just because she’s retiring this week. Pepper’s no-Moore stance comes after her paper discovered substantial factual errors in a recent guest op-ed by Moore, the chief economist at the conservative Heritage Foundation.
The episode serves as a cautionary tale for editors navigating the disputes of rival policy advocates—and a case study in the delicate art of running a correction.
It all began a month ago, when the Star ran a piece by the Nobel Prize-winning economist-turned- liberal New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, as it does regularly. The column named Moore as one of the “charlatans and cranks” who have influenced policymakers at all levels to enact low-tax, supply-side economic policies—with ruinous effects, according to Krugman. The sweeping 2013 tax cut in Kansas is only the latest example, he wrote, citing unfavorable economic and fiscal news in the Sunflower State.
After the column ran, Pepper told me, “I was contacted by Moore’s people saying they wanted to run a response.” In the interest of fairness, she agreed.
202.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: No, but it still manages to surprise me on occasion.
Joe Biden is the guy whose bill created the position of Drug Czar. Joe Biden is the guy whose bill created asset forfeiture. Joe Biden never met an illegal unconstitutional wiretap or sneak-and-peek break-in by police he didn’t like. And for three long years, Joe Biden urged everyone to take “one last shot” in Iraq and keep U.S. troops there, long after it had become obvious to everyone with a nervous system that the Iraq invasion was a futile failure of epic proportions.
Joe Biden on the Don Imus show, 8/17/2006:
“We’ve got one last shot here to separate these parties [in the Iraq civil war], and you have to do it politically.”
Joe Biden, Fox News, 11/21/2005: (Should we leave Iraq right now?)
“Not immediately, no. I can understand Jack’s frustration. This is a guy who has concluded that so far we’ve handled this effort incompetently, but it seems to me that we have one last shot at
getting this right.”
Joe Biden, Charlie Rose show, 21 June 2005:
“I personally think we should not set an exit date. I personally think we should take one last shot at trying to do this the right way. I think it still can be done, although more difficult.”
Joe Biden, Face the Nation, 6/19/2004:
“We need time. There’s one last shot at getting this right in Iraq.”
Joe Biden, Hardball, 24 May 2004:
“We’ve made significant mistakes. Our one last shot to get this right, unite the world, convince the Iraqi people that this is not just a U.S. occupation, is June 30.”
Joe Biden, 11/7/2003:
“I am convinced we have one last shot at bringing the world into Iraq,” said Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, the senior Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee. “We must do everything in our power to seize it.”
One last shot…for THREE FUCKING GODDAMN YEARS. Joe Biden is George
W. Bush with a kinder gentler genocidal murder program.
Joe Biden tells ABC News: “… I think legalization [of marijuana] is a mistake. I still believe it’s a gateway drug. I’ve spent a lot of my life as chairman of the Judiciary Committee dealing with this. I think it would be a mistake to legalize.”
Joe Biden criticizes George H. W. Bush for not waging a savage enough War on Drugs in 1988: “In 1988, the major drug bill he had spent years crafting became law. Included was the creation of a national drug czar, a key Biden objective and a job that went to Republican William Bennett. Biden vowed to be Capital Hill’s point man in pressing the new Bush administration on antidrug spending and helping Bennett navigate his way through a thorny bureaucratic thicket of multiple congressional jurisdictions. When Pres. Bush announced his 1989 antidrug plan, Biden showed no hesitation in criticizing him for not finding initiatives already on the books. He called for higher taxes on cigarettes and tobacco (neither of which he ever used) to pay for them. Biden unleashed his old fire: “Mr. President, you say you want a war on drugs, but if that’s what you want we need another D-Day. Instead you’re giving us another Vietnam–a limited war fought on the cheap, financed on the sly, with no clear objectives, and ultimately destined for stalemate and human tragedy.”
…from a policy perspective, it’s a disaster. Biden has sponsored more damaging drug war legislation than any Democrat in Congress. Hate the way federal prosecutors use RICO laws to take aim at drug offenders? Thank Biden. How about the abomination that is federal asset forfeiture laws? Thank Biden. Think federal prosecutors have too much power in drug cases? Thank Biden. Think the title of a “Drug Czar” is sanctimonious and silly? Thank Biden, who helped create the position (and still considers it an accomplishment worth boasting about). Tired of the ridiculous steroids hearings in Congress? Thank Biden, who led the effort to make steroids a Schedule 3 drug, and has been among the blowhardiest of the blowhards when it comes to sports and performance enhancing drugs. Biden voted in favor of using international development aid for drug control (think plan Columbia, plan Afghanistan, and other meddling anti-drug efforts that have only fostered loathing of America, backlash, and unintended consequences). Oh, and he was also the chief sponsor of 2004′s horrendous RAVE Act.
Source: “Biden,” The Agitator website, 23 August 2008.
Everyone knows that the Patriot Act was drafted before 9/11.
But few know that it was Joe Biden who drafted the core provisions which were included in that bill … in 1995.
CNET reported in 2008:
Months before the Oklahoma City bombing took place, Biden introduced another bill called the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995. It previewed the 2001 Patriot Act by allowing secret evidence to be used in prosecutions, expanding the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and wiretap laws, creating a new federal crime of “terrorism” that could be invoked based on political beliefs, permitting the U.S. military to be used in civilian law enforcement, and allowing permanent detention of non-U.S. citizens without judicial review.* The Center for National Security Studies said the bill would erode “constitutional and statutory due process protections” and would
“authorize the Justice Department to pick and choose crimes to investigate and prosecute based on political beliefs and associations.”
Source: “Joe Biden Drafted the Core of the Patriot Act in 1995 …Before the Oklahoma City Bombing,” Washington’s blog, 10 December 2011.
204.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: And from someone who is not an economist(Josh Barro once pointed that out).
Hey. I’m not an economist. I should write about this stuff.
206.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Okay, McClaren is starting to McClaren, time for a clean thread
@BillinGlendaleCA: that’s interesting. I’m pretty sure Maher (the only place I see him) always introduces him as an economist before allowing him to rather spastically take over the panels on his show.
207.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Why not? By Josh’s definition, I am an economist(I have a MA in the dismal science).
208.
samiam
Cole the wanker is wanking again because he has Hillary issues. Just admit you are voting Republican again Cole.
That site he is linking to has got to be a joke right? First paragraph he is saying he hasn’t seen the Hillary interview but he heard it was bad. Second paragraph he is saying how awesome Trump is. This has be a joke site right?
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: He has a BA in Economics and styles himself as an economist. Josh’s criteria for calling someone an economist is an advanced degree in the subject(Josh’s dad is Robert Barro, a Econ prof).
GW knew how to present himself to attract and establish a strong emotional connection with a certain kind of personality. And that is a political gift of a sort. (..) I think GW’s political campaigning gifts need to be recognized, since they work on enough people to swing an election.
“A certain kind of personality” is the key phrase here. My first extensive exposure to The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student was in the 2000 presidential debate, and my immediate reaction was that this was a repulsive sadistic no-neck anti-intellectual bully with a servile sneer. The kind of zitbrain frat boy who loves branding new pledges with red-hot coathangers, but becomes cringingly obsequious to older and wealthier members of the same fraternity.
I recall specifically the moment when I decided The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student was a clueless anti-intellectual asshole: Al Gore made a comment in the 2000 presidential debate involving lots of statistics, and The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student smirked and sneered and leered, “Well, I don’t have my calculator with me right now, but that doesn’t sound right to me.” And the audience laughed.
Yeah, let’s all yuck it up, because everyone knows a policy wonk like Al Gore who can cite facts and numbers off the top of his head isn’t a real man and can’t be trusted with manly responsible things…like running the United States.
Boy, did that bully-worshiping anti-intellectual audience ever get an education after 21 January 2009.
Moreover, my visceral reaction against The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student was shared by all the friends I watched that 2000 presidential debate with, and the overwhelming majority of the people I know. So the type of person who reacted well to the alleged “charisma” of The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student wasn’t a majority of the American population by any means. Basically only bully-worshiping punk kissass-wannabe no-neck rednecks and erstwhile nouveau riche aspiring gaybashers and holy rollers really liked The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student. Everyone else couldn’t stand that fucking little smug sadistic airheaded prick.
@BillinGlendaleCA: I was gonna say that another prominent GOP non-economist was James Glassman, advisor to McCain and Romney, but I googled to double-check and it was Gassman’s co-author of Dow 36,0000 (1999, right before what was then considered the 2nd stock market crash), Kevin Hassett (Ph.D., Penn) who advised them. Gassman is the founding president of the George W Bush Institute, which makes that book the 2nd most embarrassing thing on his resume. James Kenneth Glassman (born January 1, 1947) is the founding executive director of the George W. Bush Institute, a public policy development institution focused on creating independent, non-partisan solutions to America’s most pressing public policy problems through the principles that guided President George W. Bush and his wife Laura in public life.[1] The George W. Bush Institute is based within the George W. Bush Presidential Center on the campus of Southern Methodist University in Dallas.[2]
222.
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: You have friends? Are they visible to others?
223.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Omnes Omnibus: I think he may have, I’ll have consult my pocket Constitution to be sure.
the founding executive director of the George W. Bush Institute, a public policy development institution focused on creating independent, non-partisan solutions to America’s most pressing public policy problems
To be fair, W. was one of America’s most pressing policy problems, so maybe the institute is aptly named.
Hey. I’m not an economist. I should write about this stuff.
Seriously — maybe you should.
Folks, this adoration of economists with advanced degrees is distinctly misplaced. One of the best of the breed is Brad deLong (J. Bradford deLong to you), and he openly admits he got just about everything wrong.
DeLong thought the Lehman brothers meltdown would go no farther than Wall Street. Instead, it crashed the world economy. DeLong thought America would have a short V-shaped recovery. Instead, here we are 6 years after the global economy imploded, and everything is still fucked up, with U.S. GDP growth still mired in the mud at sub-2%, near stall speed. DeLong thought (and confidently predicted) that Greece would never be allowed to default and the Eurozone would never be so insane as to demand the kind of crazy punitive austerity measures thta would force Greece to abandon the Euro. He was wrong. DeLong thought that congress would be running around with its hair on fire trying to kick-start the economy if we ever got a employment-to-population ratio as low as it is today. DeLong was wrong. DeLong thought the output gap caused by the 2009 recent recession would be short-lived and quickly closed. Instead, it’s widening. DeLong thought no state in the U.S. would ever be insane enough to reject medicaid expansion allowed by ACA, because (according to his analysis) it would damage the growth rate of those states by at least 6%. DeLong was wrong.
And, hell! At least Delong admits he was wrong ! Other loons (so-called “professional economists”) like Robert Lucas continue to gibber crazy drivel and make ridiculous failed predictions (*cough* runaway inflation as a result of quarterly easing, anyone? *cough*) and goddamn Lucas got the Nobel prize of economics, fer cripes sake.
Considering that all the professional economists with advanced degrees have gotten everything wrong about the 2009 global meltdown and aftermath, at this point a monkey with a barrel of darts would do a lot better job of prognostication than a professional economist.
I won’t indulge any BS psychoanalysis but I would guess the reasons Hilary is bad at politics are not the same as the reasons Mitt Romney is bad at politics.
Astute.
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Jim, Foolish Literalist
all of you thinking Donald Trump wouldn’t face any consequences….
@ costareports
RNC has confirmed call. Top Rs abuzz tonight re: Priebus decision to bring up tone/immigration with DT. Came after days of donor urging
.
I wonder if Reince will call him “Mr Trump” during this conversation
Indeed. Hillary is bad at politics because she’s a wonk (like Al Gore). Mitt Romney is bad at politics because he’s a sociopath who has trouble emulating human beings.
@mclaren: Speaking as an economist, it is true that economists are often wrong. But the advantage to listening to a range of economist opinion is that the truth is usually someplace in the range of opinion, and you can identify honest and competent ones who will go back and try to find out why they are wrong, and explain how they will try to do better next time.
Dean Baker has a better record than DeLong, IMHO, BTW. And Krugman has done better since the last time he went from his gut and made some deficit scold style disaster predictions during first GW term. James Galbraith has also done well.
Moor is a problem though. Even though he has an MA in economics, he usually goes wrong in ways that economists like DeLong cannot even imagine.
Romney is pretty wonky within his domain, too, but I agree that his lack of common understanding — call it human empathy — is one of his defining characteristics.
234.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
There is one thing that I care less about about than Clinton’s candidacy. That thing is the villagers opinions of her.
235.
jl
@Cervantes: I think Mitt Romney is very wonky and expert about extracting cash from various social and business enterprises and organizations.
Edit: problem for him as president, I think, is that the enterprise or organization he would be very wonky and expert at extracting cash from, would be you, my friend.
Dean Baker has a better record than DeLong, IMHO, BTW. And Krugman has done better since the last time he went from his gut and made some deficit scold style disaster predictions during first GW term. James Galbraith has also done well.
Details matter but, on the whole, keeping it simple, I would agree.
Tonight, tonight! you are channeling some force that also channels in me. Those are the words I wish I had said about Bush that night!
What a total Frat-Boy bully with the smirk to match his IQ!
I really think from his withdrawal over the past 7 years (or so) he finally realize how in over his head he was, and what a disaster he had allowed to happen on his watch.
I just wish he had had the courage Iit is to laugh) to visit the military hospitals to award medals to the wounded, hurt in his little vengeful war against that 3 world dictator who attempted to kill his dad, Senior President Bush. He never did that as far as I know, so he probably still had no understanding of the misery and destruction that is directly his fault. First for fomenting the war in the beginning, and second, for allowing Rummy and Cheney to do it on the cheap, firing any general who told the truth about war in the Middle East!!
Then finally allowing some kiss-ass general who said all the right (No, wrong!) things about how to plan and execute a war thousands of miles from the North American arsenals of democracy to plan and execute a terrible sorry attempt at war making, that still is resulting in death and misery for hundreds of thousands of refugees and militia members.
What an incompetent boob! But you said it better, mclaren. So: Thank You!
Most of the stuff you cite is a result not of DeLong being a bad economist, but of DeLong not fully understanding or believing just how far today’s GOP was willing to go to burn the country to the ground if they weren’t allowed to rule it, and worse, if that boy Barry Hussein Obummer was going to insist on winning and trying to do stuff once in office. Our policy response would have been more robust (though likely still too modest) if the GOP had sit down and shut the fuck up while the Democrats governed for a while like a lot of people (myself included) expected them to. Instead they spewed ignorant nonsense and threw sand in the gears every chance they got, and this country in its infinite wisdom gave them a house of Congress back as soon as they got the chance. America F Yeah.
That sort of “the GOP may be a bunch of cranks, but they would never do ____” thinking was surprisingly common in 2009. Less so now, except among the Ron “Severe Dementia” Fournier clique.
Our policy response would have been more robust (though likely still too modest) if the GOP had sit down and shut the fuck up while the Democrats governed for a while like a lot of people (myself included) expected them to. Instead they spewed ignorant nonsense and threw sand in the gears every chance they got
Expecting even the basics of reasonable political behavior from the Republican Party has been completely unrealistic since 1992, when Clinton’s victory rudely interrupted their twelve-year orgy — and certainly since 1994 when the “Gingrich revolution” avenged that defeat.
Lovey is not at all happy tonight. No treats has made her ornery, even though I made sure to mix her favorite wet food (made with shrimp, calimari and sardines…blech!) with her dry before I had to cut off food at 6pm. She has been so bad tonight!!!!
And how great would it be if she came out and said, “If I’m not as accessible as you’d like, it’s because you wouldn’t ask anything relevant about the issues facing the country now and in the future.”
But the advantage to listening to a range of economist opinion is that the truth is usually someplace in the range of opinion…
This is absolutely true under normal economic conditions. The trouble is that when the economic conditions become grossly out of line for the standard economic models that economists have gotten used to employing, the predictions of all economists tend to turn to crap.
Example: the 2009 economic meltdown. Another example: Greece and the Eurozone.
These situations are so far outside the norm for conventional economics that standard macro tends not to predict what’s going to happen. One reason for that is that standard macro assumes people are rational. When the global economy melts down, people panic and become irrational. Or when the Greek economy blows up, once again people in both Greece and Europe start running around like chimps on crack that have been doused in gasoline and set on fire. They do crazy things. Things that, given standard economic assumptions of people increasing their marginal utility, just don’t make sense.
We see the same bizarre behavior, by the way, with the deep red states refusing medicaid expansions. From an economic viewpoint, this is just nuts. No rational expectation model of an economic systems would predict that behavior, and rational expectations is the dominant model right now.
Yet the red states are leaving many billions of dollars on the table and damaging their state economies badly in the process, for wacky ideological reasons that make no sense economically.
Maybe behavioral economic will fix this gap twixt reality and economic models. But I’m not optimistic about the prospects for that.
What I find particularly disturbing is that this stuff of “under normal conditions conventional economics works well” seems to getting rarer and rarer because the normal conditions have become increasingly infrequent over the last 30 years. We seem not only to be getting bubbles in the global economy, but the bubbles appear to have gotten more frequent and more severe. Right now America has got a giant student loan bubble, another incipient mortgage-backed-security housing rental bubble (big banks buy foreclosed properties to rent ’em out and finance this by aggregating junk mortgages and selling the paper to investors), another huge medical-industrial bubble (wait till you see what the TPP does to explode drug costs!), a huge subprime auto loan bubble, and so on. The bubbles seem to be the “new normal.” And conventional economics was not created to deal with that situation.
248.
Brachiator
@mclaren: Nice summary about economists and DeLong. The additional problem here is that leaders are relying on economists to make political judgements, an area far beyond their areas of competence, even when they get the economics part right.
There’s a lot of truth in what you’re saying. Still…I distinctly recall deLong and many other respected professional economists arguing in late 2007/early 2008 “the subprime housing mortgages only make up 5% of the total market value of the housing market, so there’s no chance that this thing can snowball out of control and crash the world economy.”
They were basically laughing off any likelihood that the global economy would crater.
Boy, were they wrong.
Professional economists use linear models. The world economy went radically non-linear and tits-up in 2007.
Moreover, no one predicted it. I don’t recall a single professional economist warning about the size of the shadow market (derivatives) in 2005 or 2006. I don’t recall a single professional economist warning that the global economy would blow up and the Baltic Dry Index shrivel up to nothing unless something was done to contain the crazy skyrocketing housing prices in 2004 or 2005.
250.
mtiffany
@Archon: 10000 people didn’t show up for Bernie Sanders because of the fucking media.
@Baud:
I don’t like Hillary, but I would never hold against her the contempt that she has for the media. Those clowns deserve no respect.
252.
jl
@mclaren: Financial deregulation created an informational black hole. Not even the bankers and finacial masters of the universe themselves understood the extent of systematic risk. A lot of economists did warn about the dangers of the kind of deregulation that took place from late Clinton yeas through Bush II.
If I may ask, and it is a non-snarky question, did you make any specific predictions beyond ‘something bad will happen to financial markets’? If not, you are as just as good as the economists.
Edit: Dean Baker and Stiglitz were on housing bubble long before 2007/8. And it comes to mind that Stiglitz was very accurate about how financial panic would unfold in early 2008, probably too late for your liking, but if so, you should point to your own predictions that are close to as good as Stiglitz’s and earlier.
I certainly didn’t predict that the global economy would crater as a result of the housing bubble. I didn’t have a clue about that.
Dean Baker and Robert Shiller were the main guys I recall predicting that the housing bubble was crazy. But even they didn’t predict that the global economy would crash as a result of it, if memory serves.
As for Joe Stiglitz, I dunno about him as a prophet. Do you recall this 2002 paper in which Jonathan Orzag, Peter Orszag and Joseph Stiglitz stated:
“on the basis of historical experience, the risk to the government from a potential default on GSE debt is effectively zero.”
It would be wonderful to see these arguments on right-wing blogs in 2017… “We would have won in 2016 if Trump hadn’t jumped in and taken votes from Jeb (Walker, Cruz or whoever) hadn’t taken votes from Trump!”
I got an Obama bumper sticker and put in on our 2006 Jetta the day after he declared and official campaign stuff was available. It was still there when we traded it last summer. I also had on on my pickup truck, which I bought in August, 2008. It was still there when we rolled the truck on I-25 in northern New Mexico.
Thanks, Obama
260.
Eolirin
@mclaren: People missed the way the shadow banking system was so deeply interwoven with the rest of the economy and thus failed to appreciate the dangers it possessed, but the way things went down actually match pretty damn well to standard Keynesian Macro. Once you look at the shadow banking collapse as a bank run, everything else fits the existing models pretty well, and the Keynesians got a lot of stuff right that the non-Keynesians (and non-economists) didn’t, like the way that inflation wouldn’t happen despite the huge expansion of the monetary base, because we were in a liquidity trap, or how austerity would be ultimately self defeating, even in terms of reducing debt, as it’s proven in Greece.
The problem hasn’t really been with conventional economics. Yeah, people missed stuff, but people will always miss stuff; we don’t castigate medicine as useless when some doctors fail to correctly identify the cause of a particular illness, or meteorology when forecasters gets a storm wrong. The value of an economic model isn’t whether people will 100% of the time properly predict black swan effects, but whether, when they happen, the models say useful and non-obvious things about the consequences and how to recover from them. Keynesian Macro has done exceptionally well by that standard. There has been a tremendous amount of necessary and correct policy guidance that was completely ignored and that continues to be ignored in places like Europe and Kansas with predictable consequences.
261.
Applejinx
The person I listen to on economics is Mark Blyth, look him up. Cranky Scot ivy league professor who is stubbornly right no matter how many crazy people pontificate otherwise. Mark “How many divisions do the Cayman Islands have?” Blyth.
The person I want for President is Bernie Sanders, and I have to respectfully suggest he’s got the ‘have a beer with’ vote locked up across both parties. He could take a guy like Trump apart, he is not the least bit impressed by any of their crap because he has values. Bernie’s genuinely dangerous to the parts of American politics that are wrecking the country.
That said, I accept that the media is completely unfair to Clinton, and she handles that as well as any person possibly could. I totally get the ‘Clinton is presented with totally unfair expectations and treatment’, I respect that it’s unreasonable. I just don’t find that an argument to support Clinton more than as “possibly the Dem if we can’t make Bernie the Dem”. I already don’t give a shit about the media and already don’t respect them or listen to them. Why should I like Hillary just because they hate her? What does that have to do with me, or with Hillary’s positions and policy?
I figure we can steer Hillary by making Bernie win: then if he does fail to clinch it, Hillary will have a mandate to be Bernie Lite. Wish I had more money to give Bernie. Don’t have the same feeling about Hillary’s campaign, but those who do, by all means throw money at her. She has additional resources Bernie won’t have. She has resources Bernie is campaigning against…
As Joan Rivers said to a competitor, ironically ON Trump’s TV show when the competitor played a ‘I’m just a little girl trying to get by in a tough reality show’ card: “You’re not a girl, darling, you’re a woman”. Hillary Clinton is a tough stubborn determined pol. She might not get the best advice but you’re not going to make me feel sorry for her by saying the media suck and are muckrakers.
I knew that already, and she knows it, and neither of us care. Show me what she’s gonna do that’s as good as what Bernie would try to do, and make me believe she’d go through with it rather than just blowing smoke.
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Emma
I am SO not going there (check thread below).
Omnes Omnibus
And Obama lost the 2012 election with his pie performance in the first debate.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Folks have got to calm the fuck down. Not that bad.
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a36264/hillary-clinton-first-interview/
The media wants panic or a fight on the Left – don’t give them either.
FrankenTrumpZilla is going to wreck shit on the Right. Sit back, relax and pass the popcorn. By the time those freaks are done with each other they will be completely unelectable.
Parmenidesa
I’m a political junkie and this crap is getting old. I don’t blame the Clintons for it but holy hell people its July and the people who will start this process aren’t even paying enough attention to remember this in Febuary.
Cacti
The Daily Beast, Politico, and Slate didn’t like it?
Well, that’s it.
Might as well just pack it up and go home.
Turgidson
The chatterers are going to say Hillary came off cold and calculating no matter what. And if she puts too much effort into coming off warm and jovial, they’ll accuse her of being inauthentic and pandering.
Whatever. She should just campaign the way she thinks is best, talk to the media when she feels like it, do what she does. Haters gonna hate.
James E Powell
Clinton needs to do something that will cause the message “the press/media hate me and you cannot trust anything they say about me” to be embedded in the minds of Americans. Otherwise, they are going to make the War on Gore look like a mild case of media bias.
Because that’s what this campaign has been so far, as one writer already revealed. It’s a game of Get Hillary and nothing more.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: Poor. Fucking auto correct.
gian
Like Romney in 2012 had a contingent on his right flank who wanted anyone else, Hillary has a mirror contingent on the left.
trollhattan
@Omnes Omnibus:
Admit it: The Sully outrage & panic pie was delicious.
Joel
We’ve got a long time before this begins to matter.
Cacti
@James E Powell:
I’m pretty sure it’s already there.
She has consistently led every GOP challenger in national polling. And she has highly favorable ratings among the two biggest parts of the Obama coaltion: women and minorities. Until and unless the GOP can find a candidate to increase their standing with either group, everything from the media is just noise.
And let’s face it, there’s no way that Hillary would be getting less of the white vote than Obama did in 2012.
Archon
@gian:
I like Bernie Sanders a lot more then Hillary Clinton, I’m not gonna pretend for a second however that the media would give a 73 year old self-proclaimed socialist a fair hearing in a general election.
Bernie is getting good press now because the media wants a dog and pony show. If he got the nomination the press would make Ted Cruz look mainstream in comparison.
Tommy
@gian: I am one of those people. And although I don’t love Hillary, I also don’t dislike her. And if needed I will not only vote for her I will help her campaign to beat whatever clown she runs against.
jl
@Cacti:
” The Daily Beast, Politico, and Slate didn’t like it? ”
Well, it is just so amazing, ain’t it? And don’t forget Taylor Marsh didn’t like it (name sounds vaguely familiar, but exactly who is that and why should we care?)
The job CNN did was CNN worthy. Looks like first half was mostly rehash of email fake scandal, with some loaded questions with obviously incorrect premises.
In the parts I watched, HRC did not ask the reviewer whether she was a hack or an incompetent, so I give HRC some credit.
I’ll watch the whole thing later.
Did Cole actually watch it?
piratedan
sorry, these fuckers are still petulant that Hilary isn’t granting them every and exclusive access, so what do we get? character assassination and nary a glimpse of what she’s actually speaking to and to whom she is speaking.
Fuck that shit, I could give a shit about if she’s wearing a halter top and high heels and what her facial expressions may or may not be implying… have those fuckers every actually listened and reported what she’s speaking about and the platform positions that she is establishing.
It’s high school yearbook confidential with these asshats, who feel they should be the one vetting the candidates and not people at the ballot box. Fuck them.
Cacti
@Archon:
That’s a very level-headed take.
Bernie certainly comes across as affable and personable in his media appearances.
But if ever he becomes the Democratic nominee, the “liberal” press will rake him over the coals in a way that he’s never experienced in his life. Just ask SoS Kerry, who watched the media assist in turning his US Navy service and decorations into a liability vs. a guy who served in the Texas National Guard.
James E Powell
@Cacti:
I’d bet things looked pretty good for Al Gore in July ’99.
bystander
The thing I wish for this election cycle is that Mike Allen start a GoFundMe page to pay for a lip plumping procedure. He will look so much better when he’s “interviewing” Jeb! if he doesn’t have those flat lips.
Tommy
@Cacti: That is my take as well. I’ve been voting since the 80s. Not a single time has anybody I voted for or wanted to vote for in the primary made it to the general election. I hope that changes at least once in my lifetime but I am not holding my breath. Long ago I made peace with this.
east is east
I will vote for Hillary but she has the personality of a turnip. I hope Biden jumps in.
Baud
@Turgidson:
Spot on.
In non-Hillary news, here is an interesting Mother Jones article on O’Malley’s attempt to out-liberal Sanders.
Cacti
@efgoldman:
The GOP and the press have been trying to nail one of the Clintons’ hides to the wall for almost a quarter century now.
I have zero problem with her arms-length approach to the political press. Just as I have no problem with Obama treating them as sophomoric and fundamentally unserious.
Archon
The core problem for the political press interested in a horserace is they know that the Obama08/Obama12/GOPHELLyeah!!!16 voter doesn’t exist.
Short of some black swan event there just aren’t enough GOP voters to beat Hillary Clinton.
Cacti
@James E Powell:
Al Gore defeated George W. Bush.
Baud
@James E Powell:
Start girding your loins, because this is as inevitable as the rising sun.
Betty Cracker
@jl: I brought up Taylor Marsh in the earlier thread because she was one of the most unhinged slobbering fangrrrls in all of PUMAdom back in the day, so it surprised me that she would find HRC’s performance lacking. But yeah, she’s an idiot, and who cares what she thinks. Haven’t had time to watch the interview myself.
kc
LMAO!
Cacti
@kc:
Maybe he has a friend whose first name is “Latino”.
Tommy
@Cacti:
I came of age and really political aware while Bill and Hillary were in the White House. I couldn’t believe how savaged they were. That is why I am pretty sure I give her more of a benefit of doubt then I would somebody else in my party. It is just like hasn’t she dealt with enough BS already?
the Conster
I hate our fucking asshat media clowns too, but that doesn’t mean Hillary comes across well. That shit matters. She looks like she’s been overcoached for an important job interview. Ugh.
trollhattan
@kc: @Cacti:
Guessing it was something along the lines of, “The Latins love me. I’m YOOOOUGE with the Latins!”
JMG
She did just fine, John. Boring, but fine. She’s not an exciting personality, so she’s way better off not trying to be one. She is diligent, persistent and has views well within the Democratic party mainstream. Speaking of Al Gore, he is well positioned to offer the denunciations of the political media Clinton cannot. So, oddly enough, is Sanders, who might well just do it.
MBunge
Hillary isn’t as bad a politician as some, like me, make her out to be. But she is really awful at some of the basic skills and aptitudes needed by politicians.
I won’t indulge any BS psychoanalysis but I would guess the reasons Hilary is bad at politics are not the same as the reasons Mitt Romney is bad at politics.
Mike
Baud
I didn’t see any of the interview, but based on the commentary, it appears that people’s opinions are about her personality rather than any of her substantive answers to the questions. Is that correct?
MNDoug
Is John trolling us?
jl
@Betty Cracker: I noted Marsh’s criticisms of HRC in the first part of the interview, so watched through the first couple of questions, then when I saw CNN was going to rehash the fake email thing, I started skipping through.
Seems to me Marsh criticized HRC for not responding properly to questions that were not really what the interviewer actually asked.
It was kind of a dud interview, but so what? And I don’t see how that was entirely HRC’s fault.
kc
@trollhattan:
Oh, lord, I had forgotten about that.
What if . . . what if Trump actually wins the GOP nomination? And then . . no. God wouldn’t do that to us.
jl
@MNDoug: May be trolling, or maybe double reverse anti-trolling trolling. Hard to tell. The ways of BJ are a mystery wrapped in an enigma.
Cacti
Maybe she could liven things up next time with a few jokes about rapey Hispanics.
:-P
Baud
@Cacti: Ha!
Kay
@the Conster:
I just think it’s unfixable. The Clintons and political media are like a really bad marriage that never ends. It’s exhausting to watch. The grudges and gripes go back decades. She walks in with that.
I hope people get bored with it because it’s insular, right? It operates to exclude voters and it leads to media talking about media, which is boring. I’m kind of curious how younger people might see it. My daughter will vote for Cllnton versus any Republican and she’s (basically) not engaged on the whole political end- the political gamesmanship just doesn’t interest her. She knows the basic positions of the two Parties and she uses that as proxy to get to The Democrat. I wonder if you don’t know the whole history if you look at it differently.
Baud
@Kay:
That may be why she’s decided not to be as accessible as the national media would like.
Archon
@kc:
The people running the GOP would retroactively make primaries “unofficial” before they let Trump win the nomination.
It was about 5 days late but Trump’s camp leaking the idea of a potential 3rd party run will prevent the GOP from throwing the kitchen sink at him though.
Major Major Major Major
@MNDoug: No, he just still has residual CDS from his time as a Gooper.
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Heh. I thought “pie performance” was some kind of shoutout to the Cleek filter.
jl
@Baud:
” That may be why she’s decided not to be as accessible as the national media would like. ”
And what would the media ‘like’? Follow her around 24/7, mob her every campaign stop even though they turn into a human stampede, stare over her shoulder every minute and get every phone number, email, and scrap of paper and electronic file they wish for? Seems like it.
east is east
@Baud: Perhaps. But she really isn’t so good when it comes to campaigning. Bill is really likable. Hillary is a good and focused person but she doesn’t make people smile. It matters.
geg6
I also read all this PANIC NOW! commentary this morning. It bothered me a little. Then I read Charlie Pierce’s take and felt better. Then I caught some clips. She was fine. She answered the bullshit email questions just fine ( I would have just said fuck you and your email bullshit myself). She wasn’t Obama, but she doesn’t have to be. Obviously the media is out to get her. This will not endear the media or their memes about her to the people who have about had enough of the media: the youth, women and minorities. Fuck them. I’m not worried and I’m sure that if I feel that way, Hillary feels it magnitudes more.
wasabi gasp
@Omnes Omnibus: Nothing short of confident that this performance by Hillary will also be a one-off. She’s shaking it loose at the gate. Getting her sea legs. Feeling the boin.
the Conster
@Kay:
My daughters generation doesn’t get their information from legacy media and they don’t vote Republican, but they do feel like voting doesn’t really matter. This Hillary/press dynamic feeds into that sense of being in one of those They Shoot Horses Don’t They campaign marathons that everyone ends up hating.
Baud
@east is east: Agree. It’s the whole “Who would you like to have a beer with?” issue. Liberals usually don’t like to think that way, however.
Corner Stone
Cole can’t help himself and we’re just gonna have to give it up to Jesus on this issue.
Just like her recent FDR Island speech in NYS. That was one hell of a speech. That was a barn burner of a speech. It’s just too damned bad that it was wrapped into a mediocre delivery. That’s just who she is. As long as she keeps talking about the things she describes in that speech, she’ll be fine.
Baud
@jl: Their demands won’t stop, but they probably would like more press conferences and interviews than they are getting.
ETA: Hillary is ratings gold compared to any other candidate right now.
Corner Stone
Does anyone keep track of the press in Germany when elections come around? How does Merkel fair in the press?
Tommy
@Baud: How about it. Again I am not a huge Clinton fan. But even far-right Republican Senators say Hillary when she served stuck her head down and worked. Worked her rear end off.
Then you know she was SoS, which has to be about the second or third most important position in our government.
What more does she have to do to get a little respect from the media, well anybody really?
Bobby Thomson
@Omnes Omnibus: your accomplishment has been witnessed.
Keith P.
Last primary she was the same way…then she got emotional in a debate, and pundits were suddenly gushing over her, and her poll numbers jumped. I think it’s a strategy of letting a certain narrative build before blowing it open.
Bobby B.
To paraphrase “Funeral In Berlin”, she’s trussed up in her organization like an old and intractable turkey.
Cacti
@Baud:
The last time a GOPer won the White House, Bush carried 43% of the Hispanic vote and 48% of the women’s vote.
Hillary Clinton has highly favorable ratings with both of the above groups.
Which GOPer out there comes within sniffing distance of either of the above numbers?
Baud
@Tommy: I don’t think I’ve seen anyone seriously question her work ethic. People focus on other attributes if they want to criticize her.
SiubhanDuinne
@Cacti:
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: Not too well, every time I’ve been there. But I stick to the liberal (aka ‘populated’) areas. Most of the country isn’t Berlin, Munich, and Frankfurt.
Der Spiegel is maybe the most even-keeled source you’ll find and they aren’t huuuuuge fans, rather nationalist but still to the left of, say, The Economist. That’s not sarcasm, I like The Economist most of the time, although sometimes their slip is showing, as it were.
Last time I was in Munich was during the mayoral election there, and they had the strangest signs. The conservative candidate’s slogan was roughly “let’s move Bavaria forward”, and the socialist candidate’s slogan was roughly “let Bavaria stay Bavaria”. It’s the exact opposite of what we have here. The socialist won, needless to say.
Baud
@Cacti:
No question. But that just means her personality isn’t a fatal liability. I think few people would describe her as charismatic. Certainly not compared to Obama or Bill, or possibly even W. But I can’t think of anyone of the GOP side who is either, so maybe it doesn’t matter.
geg6
@Baud:
They want her to forgive and forget what they’ve done to her and her friends and family for decades. They want her to fluff them and pet them and offer donuts and BBQ and tire swings. They want her to discuss her sense of betrayal from her husband. They want her to say she loves and admires and needs them more than anything or anyone. They want her to bow down to the Village and beg them to let her in. Fuck them.
Tommy
@Baud: I get most people want somebody to have a beer with. I could care less. All I care about is you are good at your job.
jl
@Baud:
‘ It’s the whole “Who would you like to have a beer with?” issue. ‘
GW was a shrewd campaigner, and people thought they would like to have a beer with him, to drink.
Not sure how much of the voter’s beer would be drunk and how much would end up in the GOPe’rs face with this cycle’s crew.
Maybe difficult to suss out the significance of the ‘beer with’ primary this time. (Edit: I can think of some slogans, like ‘Jeb!’s sneer looks better with beer’)
mclaren
Herding the press along with ropes? I’m all for it. In fact, the Clintons should’ve chipped the press like dogs and used TV remote controls to stimulate their pain centers if they asked stupid questions. I personally would love to see sociopathic self-entitled asshole ignorami like Luke Russert and Maureen Dowd writhing in agony on the asphalt while shitting themselves uncontrollably.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tommy:
I’ve never been a huge fan of the Clintons (either of them), but the more they are unfairly demonized in the press, the more I’ll defend them*. This has been true since the “little woman baking cookies” days of the 1992 primary season, and continues to this day.
*The exception being 2008, when I was an Obama supporter from Day One.
Corner Stone
@Baud:
Good babby christ. That may be one of the worst things I’ve seen said about her.
HRA
My question is where is the personal enthusiasm for a campaign for president from HRC? She showed it in 2008.
Yes, I know Mark Penn was blamed for her loss in 2008. He at least did not interfere with her by reining in her personality.
She should have met all the bad press head on and early. There will soon be a “what are they hiding” aspect of her campaign if they keep her more cloistered with little meetings at homes of the faithful.
I am not committed to anyone yet.
Baud
@Corner Stone:
Really? W. was a lot of awful things, but he had (and won based on) his personality, IMHO.
LWA
I was a die hard Republican conservative in 1992, and by 1998 was calling myself a “disgusted former Republican” and it was almost entirely due to the antics of the GOP during that decade.
The GOP and the Beltway media somehow thought, and still think, that the average voter gives a crap about the Clinton Scandal Of The Week.
So yeah, take off and nuke it from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.
Corner Stone
@mclaren:
I am completely against this notion. And yet…something about it feels so right.
Baud
@HRA:
My guess is that she is taking a lower-key approach this time because of all the “coronation” criticism.
jl
@mclaren:
” Luke Russert and Maureen Dowd writhing in agony on the asphalt while shitting themselves uncontrollably. ”
Your suggestion is uncivil and gratuitously cruel. And why bother with chips and electric shocks when you can get more response by merely speaking plainly to them?
Patrick
@Tommy:
I could be wrong, but I think I hear the word Benghazi about a million times more than I hear “Clinton worked hard” from far-right Republican Senators…
Bobby Thomson
@Baud: haven’t seen anything that contradicts that.
LWA
@mclaren:
That, a date with a supermodel, and the FEMA camps for the Fox News crowd.
3 dreams I will never experience.
Cacti
@HRA:
So, back in 1991?
FlipYrWhig
Jesus. Once again I think I’m the only person who remembers the blogosphere pummeling Elizabeth Warren for being unexciting on the stump and not having a big enough lead against Scott Brown. And that was the summer before the election, not a whole fucking year ahead of time. And I also don’t remember many people ever enthusing over Barack Obama’s interview skillz either. Who shines in an interview? What performance do people have in mind that this falls short of?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: Yeah, never cut any ice with me, I always saw him as an overgrown smug, spoiled fratboy with a streak of entitlement a mile wide and 20,000 leagues deep, but a whole lot of people fell for that “Ah’m the kinda fella what can reach ‘cross the aisle…”. Especially in 2000
One the dumb, if very minor, things Gore did was try to throw Bush off during a debate by standing close to him, as Clinton had successfully done (intentionally, I don’t know) to Dole in ’96. Bush paused, looked at Gore, gave him a kind of “Hi, can I help you?” nod and won the crowd. So much so that the hideous old troll that birthed him didn’t need to go on TV later that week and say “I thought he was going to hit George!” but she did.
mclaren
@Kay:
This is the “both sides do it” narrative, and that’s complete horseshit.
Read The Hunting of the President. The mainstream media eagerly became complicit in echoing insane lies about Bill Clinton when anyone with half a goddamn brain knew it was lunacy. Vince Foster was allegedly murdered, Bill Clinton supposedly uses Arkansas state troops to kill witnesses to his alleged multiple rapes of women staffers, there was something purportedly sinister about Bill Clinton’s Christmas card list…his goddamn CHRISTMAS CARD LIST fer cripes sake!
Abject lunacy.
And yet the mainstream press parrotted this craziness as though it had some kind of credibility.
Fuck the press.
I’m with Cole on this one, the more the New York Times bloviates against Hillary, the more I’m inclined to support her. What the fuck is next, accusations that she’s a lesbian and she wiped her State Department emails to cover up her trysts with all her lesbian lovers?
Oh…wait: that’s an actual accusation.
C’mon, Kay, this is not a case of “both sides do it.” This is the mainstream press going batshit insane and losing even the semblance of common sense whenever the name “Clinton” pops up on their radar.
FlipYrWhig
@HRA: I’m already disappointed by the NEXT Democratic frontrunner!
Cacti
@Baud:
Dubya’s jovial personality is probably what kept him from being run out of town on a rail by 2007.
If he had a Nixonian demeanor, he wouldn’t have lasted to 2008.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: Obama: weak in debate, I just wanna eat my waffles, above my pay grade… I”m sure there were other moments in ’08 that presaged his inevitable collapse.
east is east
If Biden joins the race he will win.
Tommy
@SiubhanDuinne: When I moved from Baton Rouge to DC I moved with this lady I was dating. Loved the lady. Only person I might have ever thought about asking to marry me (maybe too much info). Early in Bill Clinton’s first term.
If I drove someplace I had music on. If she drove, Rush was on. Clearly we knew we had different political views. It pushed us apart. I am like how can this be acceptable discourse to you. We both got MAs in Journalism from LSU.
WTF!!!!!!!!!
FlipYrWhig
@mclaren:
Pretty sure that was DougJ. I don’t think John C has said that (yet?).
Kay
@Baud:
And it’s true that she really doesn’t have to. She actually doesn’t have to introduce herself and it’s okay by me if she recognizes that’s a tactical advantage.
As you know because I blather about it endlessly I think there’s a lot of economic insecurity that is centered around people who might be “Hillary voters” so I’m hoping what might be “dull” or “scripted” to political media might be “reassuring” or “reliable” to those people. I keep seeing that she has this huge gender gap and one lower middle group that Democrats do okay with is lower middle or working class women. That’s a group where “exciting!” can sound a whole lot like “risky”- maybe “reliable” or “really persistent” s something they might value.
Cacti
@mclaren:
That was DougJ who said that.
The more the NYT bloviates against Hillary, the more Cole’s inner Dittohead comes to the surface.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay:
And “flashy” can sound a whole lot like “bullshit artist.”
Major Major Major Major
@Cacti: Yep.
I’m too young to do much more than observe Hillary Derangement Syndrome. It makes no goddamned sense to me. Maybe it’s because my mom is kinda like Hillary in a lot of ways, and I’ve seen the shit she has to put up with my whole life, I dunno.
Baud
@Kay:
Yeah, with all the latest Sanders buzz, I was wondering what your take was given your focus on economic insecurity. His policies may ultimately be better for folks, but will they be scared off with his grand vision of change?
Kay
@mclaren:
It isn’t “both sides do it”. It’s “these people are trapped together and no matter who is at fault they can’t break out of this box”. Their hunting led to her caution and it just goes ’round and ’round.
It’s the reality of her situation.
johnnybuck
@HRA:
Um, have you been keeping up? that is ground zero for a Clinton, always.
jl
@Cacti: I agree. GW knew how to present himself to attract and establish a strong emotional connection with a certain kind of personality. And that is a political gift of a sort. Not enough of a gift to get a majority of votes in the first election. And a lot of people can see through it to a bully and manipulator, and a not very bright manipulator who can easily be manipulated himself until disaster looms.
I think GW’s political campaigning gifts need to be recognized, since they work on enough people to swing an election.
Gin & Tonic
@Major Major Major Major: Bavaria is different, though. I have Bavarian friends, even young ones, who say “I’m not German, I’m Bavarian.”
mai naem mobile
I’m too old for this shit. I like Sanders and I’ll even vote for him in the primary if hes around for our primary. Barring a catastrophe Hill’s going to be our candidate and thats okay. I wish she was looser in the way she speaks but she’s better than all the other side on media skills except maybe if Kasich jumps in. She isn’t Obama but Obama is extraordinary so give her a break. Also pray that Trump ends up being the GOP candidate. I know the whole SNL line up and late night comedians are praying for that.
Turgidson
@Baud:
Maybe Hillary should give the reporters following her around insulting frat boy nicknames and be dickish to them in a more playful way. That worked for a certain two-term dipshit who got the media to run cover for his atrocities for far longer than it took the country to identify (most of) them for themselves.
But…for some reason I don’t think they’d take as kindly to that sort of thing if it came from Hillary Clinton and not a faux cowboy [male] asshole.
Betty Cracker
I think HRC is at her best when she lets her true Leslie Knope nature shine through. She’s an earnest list maker and policy wonk. That can be endearing in its own way. At least to people who like “Parks and Rec.”
@mclaren: I enjoyed that comment more than anything you’ve ever written. Especially the shitting themselves part. Bravo.
Corner Stone
@Baud:
I disagree. He was in contention because of outright lying about “compassionate conservatism”, and attendant claims. That whole “have a beer with” shit was conjured up whole cloth by the same guys that produced a black child of Sen McCain.
He’s the guy who abused his younger brother and enjoyed it, mocked an inmate on death row, and basically incurioused his way around TX for years.
Probably a few dead animals along the way in his backtrail.
Gin & Tonic
@Corner Stone: Luke Russert and Maureen Dowd writhing in agony on the asphalt while shitting themselves uncontrollably.
I, on the other hand, would pay good cash money to see that.
Corner Stone
@HRA:
This is the equivalent of a deep pockets law firm burying a small time plaintiff in a law suit with paper after paper. They flood the underfunded claimant with so much time consuming requests, etc, that they have no resources to meet and eventually just submit to defeat.
If she followed your advice of engaging the bad press she’d never have time to do any other damn thing. Like run for president, for example.
Because the press would be only too happy to turn the bullshit generator up to elebenty.
Baud
@Corner Stone:
A lot of Reagan’s aura was manufactured too. But the point isn’t whether they were really nice guys or not, but whether they had the people skills to pull it off.
Tommy
@Major Major Major Major: You know count yourself lucky you didn’t live through it. My mom might be like your mother and Hillary.
She isn’t that emotional. Can be somewhat stand-offish. And frankly in any room she is in she tries to take control. My dad, brother, and I call her the “little general.” We don’t have the guts to say it to her face :).
I used to dislike this but now as I am older I freaking love it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@mai naem mobile: He won’t be teh candidate, but I don’t think they can get away from the bigotry on immigration. Last round it helped take Perry down, caused a lot of problems for Romney, it helped take down Eric Cantor, who was supposed to be waiting to axe Boehner from the right, and Boehner sacrified a bipartisan reform bill to Steve King.
La Raza that is having their big annual convention this weekend, HRC, Sanders and O’Malley will be there. No Republican candidates.
Turgidson
@geg6:
And after she does all that, they’ll run off to write scathing opinion pieces about how insincere and fake she is.
Like I said before, she should just do what she thinks is right and let the media be insecure, sniveling crybabies they are. Let surrogates talk shit about them here and there, but stay above it.
That’s what Obama has been doing, most of the time, since the media belatedly realized that he thinks they’re morons and devoted their lives to taking potshots at him and asking “is this Obama’s Katrina?” every time someone in his administration farts. He’s mostly winning that war. Hillary can too.
chopper
@mclaren:
wow, you really are a super-liberal.
Kay
@Baud:
I see Sanders differently than you do, I think. I think the part of his message they are responding to is “we don’t get policy that benefits most people because plutocrats have too much influence”. I think it’s a kind of explanation for a lot of people. It’s not “we don’t get single payer and that sucks”. It’s “here’s WHY we don’t get single payer”
I think his argument is much bigger than “more liberal”. So, I think what he’s really talking about could be huge, maybe should be huge, but I don’t think most people are there yet -they aren’t yet willing to say “government works exclusively for the 1% and now what should we do about that?” Because we’d have to do a LOT. A lot would have to change, starting with campaign finance.
I saw a good piece about him where the writer said Sanders had this advantage in Vermont- small population, liberal state, he didn’t have to beg for money and that kept him “unbought and unbowed”. That seems true to me but would that work in Ohio or Florida? I don’t know.
Cacti
@Tommy:
Hillary also came of age in an era where women showing outward emotion was taken as proof of their unfitness for “a man’s work”, or if they were particularly smiley and friendly, male colleagues were certain it meant you wanted to sleep with them.
Even now, if Hillary tried to be jocular, it would be held up as proof of her unseriousness.
gelfling545
@Baud: I don’t honestly see why she should go out of her way for them. It’s not as if they will ever say anything positive about her or her campaign without at least hinting about something negative even if they can’t think up anything specific right at the moment. She’s seen this all before. She may as well go with her own preferences and not stress over it.
Corner Stone
@mai naem mobile:
Did you see that clip of Kasich talking about what may possibly happen in a few days if he decides to announce? That was epic fail to its most epic failingest. That guy is such a raw asshole he just can’t hide it any longer. I had the sound off for part of it and i was physically recoiling just watching him.
bobbo
I like Hillary. I think she is funny and smart. And needless to say she is a good Democrat.
There, I said it.
Baud
@Kay:
For me, simply talking about what’s wrong doesn’t do a whole lot because I’m not interested in commiserating with elected officials. Ultimately, I think you need a positive agenda to sell. But I’m far from in tune with most other voters.
Tommy
@Kay: Read about Huey Long. He had the same messages more than half a century ago. There are many that think if he wasn’t killed he might have won the Presidency on said message. I am not saying Long is Sanders. Huey was a messed up crook. But the populist messages and government working for people are similar on many levels.
Baud
@bobbo:
Monster!
Kay
@Corner Stone:
He’s bad at…talking. Like so many governors when he hits the national I think people will say “well, THAT was disappointing” :)
It’s rare, right? There aren’t a whole lot of real “naturals” in anything. That’s why everyone can list them. There are like 5 in modern presidential politics going back decades. It’s a tiny group of people.
FlipYrWhig
@Betty Cracker:
I’m surprised I hadn’t thought of that before, because I’m an avid fan of P & R. It really works well, especially through the prism of those episodes where the conflict is essentially “everyone else in my life is an idiot, but I help them in spite of themselves, because they’re generally decent, they need it, and that’s what public service is.” Which is most of them, really.
trollhattan
Obama is possibly a once-in-a-lifetime politician. Remember his Berlin reception in 2008? Still “just a senator” at that point.
Nobody running or thinking of running has or can generate that kind of buzz and let’s be honest, after eight years of Dubya the entire globe was absolutely primed for it.
Kay
@Tommy:
Right, but “crook” would take him right out, Tommy. Sanders is opposed to crooks :)
He thinks THE PROBLEM is crooks. That’s why it’s not necessarily “liberal”. It’s bigger. It could encompass conservatism as long as the policy wasn’t being directed by monied interests. He says it. He says there are people in Congress on the “other side of the aisle” who know that plutocrats are purchasing policy. I always think “OMG, NAME them, Bernie and we’ll settle this right now!” :)
Germy Shoemangler
@Archon:
Trump as spoiler? Excellent.
It would be wonderful to see these arguments on right-wing blogs in 2017… “We would have won in 2016 if Trump hadn’t jumped in and taken votes from Jeb (Walker, Cruz or whoever)” “Bullshit! Don’t blame Trump! Blame Jeb (Walker, Cruz or whoever)!”
geg6
@Corner Stone:
Yup, I saw that, too, and was just shocked. All the talk about Kasich is about how he’s so likeable and great at the media game. I watched it with sound and it might have been the worst, most uncomfortable presser by someone not under indictment or doing a mea culpa for cheating on the wife that I’ve ever seen. And that’s saying something. I’m old enough to remember Nixon doing pressers well before Watergate. When you come off more uncomfortable than Tricky Dick, you’ve got a big problem.
Tommy
@Cacti: Yes what you said. Anytime my mother is in a room she is the smartest person in the room. She stopped going to college with her BA because, well me. You stayed at home and raised your kids. That was what women did at the time. Or about 99% of them.
Kay
@Corner Stone:
This is just for you, CS:
They’re really reaching. Now it’s an environmental law! It’s like…the endangered species act but with patent protections! :)
https://twitter.com/USTradeRep
dedc79
There was a pretty good episode of Modern Family where the mom is challenging an incumbent local official (played by david cross) who has done absolutely nothing. When she’s prepping for the big debate, her family keeps pointing out all these things she does that she shouldn’t do (e.g. pointing at her opponent), and the more they point stuff out the more stressed she gets, and the more stressed she gets the more it shows. Anyway, she pulls it all together at the debate and is doing a great job until the opposition raises some embarrassing story from her personal life, and in a matter of seconds she reverts to all her worst habits, doing everything her family told her not to do all at once.
In some ways this is the same crap HIllary is dealing with. She’s constantly being judged not based on what she’s saying but on how she says it. Her opponents and the press want to talk about anything other than the issues at hand. And they’ve gotten her so wound up and paranoid that it’s bringing out all her worst habits.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tommy:
She may have been intelligent, hot, all the attributes, but from just the little you’ve shared I think you would have been miserable. You made the right call.
tazj
I watched a good part of the interview on CNN and thought she did just fine. She came across as pleasant, and not sour and defensive and that is what I feared from what I read above. I think if she had made some terrible gaffe or had gotten snippy CNN and everyone else would be gleefully running with that.
Turgidson
@geg6:
Interesting. I haven’t seen Kasich on my TV too much, but one of the times I saw him was after the Ohio voters told him to shove his union busting agenda up his ass. He was actually somewhat contrite and humble about it, and almost seemed sincere. But since then I’ve read all about how much of an insufferable asshole he is. I guess there’s something to that.
He’s easily their scariest candidate on paper and fits the Villagers’ idea of what Republicans are or ought to be to a tee. Twice elected to the most important swing state, second time in a romp. Not particularly outspoken or scary on cultural wedge issues. High-profile, popular deviations with party orthodoxy (mostly the Medicaid expansion) to prove he’s one of those “mavericks” they so love. Has at least some personality.
But the Medicaid expansion and his moralizing defense of it to GOP bigwigs probably forecloses any chance he’ll catch on. Being an insufferable prick and unable to tamp it down for interviews won’t help.
Tommy
@Kay: Huey did amazing things, amazing for the state of Louisiana. But he saw it as a way to grift off a part for himself and his supporters. By everyway possible he was corrupt to his core. But he did a lot of good stuff. I could and would argue that much of what he did is the current infrastructure of the entire state.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gin & Tonic:
I see what you did there.
Davis X. Machina
Was it as bad as Obama’s debate performance against Romney? The one that cost him re-election?
Corner Stone
@Tommy:
That’s what financially secure, married, white women did at some points of our recent past. I’m surrounded by a significant number that continue to do that to this day.
Lots of people didn’t have the option.
Germy Shoemangler
@Corner Stone: Most moms I knew had to go to work whether they wanted to or not. “Plenty of snacks in the fridge, and here’s the house key. Come straight home after school and make sure your homework gets done.”
Germy Shoemangler
@Davis X. Machina: I remember that, and it scared the crap out of me. Does anyone know what happened to Obama during that debate. It’s almost like he’d said to himself “fuck it”
James E Powell
@Tommy:
But the populist messages and government working for people are similar on many levels.
The rhetoric of “government working for people” can be applied in very different ways. The people in Wisconsin who voted three times for Scott Walker would tell you that he is all about government working for people. They never really say which people.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gin & Tonic:
I want both brain bleach and an infinite supply of “like” buttons.
Gin & Tonic
@SiubhanDuinne: I see what you did there.
That makes one of us, anyway.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tommy:
Doesn’t matter. She knows. Trust me on this.
Corner Stone
@Kay: Pretty soon it’s going to cure cancer and solve interstellar travel.
Did you happen to see the NYT shot of the sweat shop in Vietname they used the other day for an article?
Pacific Trade Deal Negotiators See a Wrap in Late July
SiubhanDuinne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That totally cracks me up. That the Republicans are blowing off La Fucking RAZA.
They never fail to amaze.
raven
Tweety is taking to Cruz at length.
notoriousJRT
@Cacti:
This. So much this!
Tommy
@Germy Shoemangler: Before I was born my mom worked.
My father finished his PhD. She worked to pay for it. I kid you not, because I couldn’t make this up. For Edwin Edwards while dad was at LSU. Months later I was born and she stayed at home to raise me.
Turgidson
@Germy Shoemangler:
Seemed like a combination of complacency (he had a fairly huge lead at that point, post 47% tape, and might have come in thinking the debates weren’t going to really matter as long has he didn’t say something outrageous), fatigue, and exasperation that Romney showed up to the debate, promptly disowned the entire GOP platform he’d been campaigning on for a year, and lied so rapidly that he couldn’t even keep count of them all, while the “moderator” Lehrer sat quietly and tried not to nod off.
Germy Shoemangler
@Turgidson: That’s the best summation I’ve ever seen of that debate.
Matt McIrvin
@FlipYrWhig:
ALL OF THEM KATIE
dedc79
@Turgidson:
I think this explained 97% of Obama’s performance.
OzarkHillbilly
Don’t look now, Death Panels are back.
Elie
What pisses me off is they give the contemptible moron clowns running under the Republicans a complete pass… It is despicable! Any one of these clowns would bring down our country if elected. Most are rich, corrupt and STUPID beyond understanding.
Hillary has her personality quirks — but they are what make her an individual. She seems more relaxed than before. I am mostly ignoring the bullshit from the media and assume they are just doing what they do.
Kay
@Tommy:
Well, but the quid pro quo transactional stuff is what he’s opposed to. I recognize you’re talking about some “simpler” time where he was just handing out jobs at the post office or whatever, but Sanders is talking about bigger fish- regulators going right to work for the entities they regulate, that sort of thing. He’s expanding the definition of “corruption” to a broader idea than “X violated Y federal law on campaign contributions” or “X went to work for private sector entity X was regulating 364 days after leaving government employ instead of 365 days”. His idea of “pay to play” is larger than our current legal framework. It really took shape on the Left after Citizens, because there was that breezy “oh, this will never lead to CORRUPTION” attitude there. They meant “actionable corruption that violates a law” not general, systemic bought and paid-ness.
JPL
I’ve been reading tweets and/or watching CSPAN’s coverage of the Confederate Battle Flag. One of the many amendments being voted on had to do with replacing it with a white flag, for surrender.
SiubhanDuinne
@Corner Stone:
I was, in some ways, very fortunate. I married in 1964 (yes, for those of you counting on your fingers, that is 51 years ago). Even then, neither my husband nor I had the slightest interest in having children. My own mother was fine with the decision — she might have had a very different life if she had had the contraceptive options I enjoyed, and I think was quite envious of me. My mother-in-law, OTOH, was furious, thought I was selfish (never thought to cast judgement on her own son), and I think never forgave me, although we were on friendly terms when she died in 2001.
trollhattan
@Turgidson:
Kasich is “the nice Scott Walker.” We’ll see how far that takes him.
I’m sure the moneymen will approve FWIW.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gin & Tonic:
Maybe I’m making too much of it. I was referring to the never ending trope “I have Black friends.”
It’s true what they say. Never explain jokes. They always get less funny.
trollhattan
@JPL:
Would it have eyeholes, by any chance?
SiubhanDuinne
@Tommy:
I totally believe you. It’s actually kind of a trope in late-20th-century feminist literature. Not to mention real life.
Baud
@SiubhanDuinne:
Well we’re glad she didn’t!
Kay
@Corner Stone:
We are so on the same page. They keep showing them smiling in empty factories. Yesterday was Peru. I love the hard hats. They’re afraid some exhausted laborer will fall on their heads from above? Is that where the people who work there are?
JPL
@trollhattan: All they need is one amendment to pass in order to kill the Senate bill. One amendment had to do with changing the flagpole to honor the blacks that fought bravely for the confederate.
I’m still not sure it will pass.
Germy Shoemangler
The Trump Balloon
ThresherK
@Betty Cracker: Yes, but there was only one Perd Hapley, that TV jagoff on Parks and Rec.
In our mediascape there is no end to the competition for Top Perdvert.
(And I can’t give enough stars to the term “Perdvert”, the unknowingness of that character’s nickname for his fans. Such a good fit for this.)
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
Aww, sweet! Thank you!!
Turgidson
@trollhattan:
“Nice” in a policy sense, but apparently not temperamentally.
And I think part of the reason he’s considered an afterthought is because he’s managed to piss off too many of the GOP’s moneymen with his Medicaid stance (and maybe even more importantly, his surprisingly compassionate – anathema to many GOP fundraisers – defense of that decision when confronted).
He seems like this cycle’s Huntsman. Which sucks for him and for the GOP’s near term future, but good for Hillary and for mankind. Things can change, but I don’t think any of other GOP clowns in the car stand a chance against her right now.
Tommy
@SiubhanDuinne: I have not read that:
Maybe it works because it is true.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tommy:
I think so.
Germy Shoemangler
Just Some Fuckhead
Am I still on The List, or do I have to reapply each new thread?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m gleaning from twitter that Keith Olbmermann got fired again, or more likely, you-can’t-fire-me-I-quitted again. Anybody know for sure?
ETA: In other sports news
Breaking News @ BreakingNews 27m27 minutes ago
New York Giants’ Jason Pierre-Paul has right index finger amputated after fireworks accident, medical records show
Omnes Omnibus
@Just Some Fuckhead: I wouldn’t take any chances.
MomSense
It’s very liberating to not care at all about any of the Democratic candidates. I will still do my phonebanking/GOTV gig for the Democratic nominee but honestly I don’t like any of them–at all. I also plan to just enjoy every day Pres O and his family are in the White House.
Suzanne
Hillary was fine. Everyone who’ storied about it needs to chill the fuck out.
I think that her being a Clinton is part of the reason she gets this shit, but I honestly believe that a large part of why she’s seen as not likeable is because she’s a woman who is smarter than 99.8% of these dudes—reporters, other pols, etc. It is one of those sexist holdovers that smart women are seen as threatening and/or emasculating.
She’s not a warm, snuggly type. Neither am I. And I left my last job in part because I was told, “You are great and really smart and you do a fabulous job and your clients love you and if you left, this office would be crippled. But some of the interns are scared of you and don’t like you. You need to smile a lot and touch people in a friendly way.” Yeah, I quit that fucking job. That is exactly the kind of bullshit that women still have to put up with. Why the fuck do people expect her to be a cuddle bear?
Cacti
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Hadn’t heard but wouldn’t be surprised.
Keith seems to not play well with others.
chopper
@Tommy:
YOUR DAD HAS A PHD??!
BillinGlendaleCA
@Just Some Fuckhead: Still hoping for that Christmas card from Cole, eh?
Corner Stone
@Suzanne: And no, I am not on that book/face place.
Sorry, I was laughing too hard last night to reply.
SiubhanDuinne
This seems to have turned into an open thread, although I don’t think it really is one. But what the heck, what the heck. (EDIT: I will repeat this in the next open thread that comes along.)
I am heading up to NoVA in a few days. I have a commitment on Saturday 11 July (more than a commitment — I will be seeing Ruth Bader Ginsburg give a lecture on”The Law in Opera” at the Castleton Music Festival), am free as a bird on Sunday and Monday, hoping for a BJ meetup with Valdivia, Elizabelle, and Shana (and anyone else who can join in. Steeplejack?) on Tuesday, committed Wednesday with friends from the Canadian Embassy, and then I’m heading up to Boston to celebrate a dear friend’s 70th birthday.
Anyone who can participate on Tuesday the 14th (Bastille Day), do stay tuned for details of place and time. If you’re not available on Tuesday but would still be interested in a NoVA/DC meetup Sunday or Monday, 12-13 July, please shoot me an email at SiubhanDuinne (at) gmail (dot) com.
Corner Stone
@Turgidson:
Plus, he’s too short to ever be elected president in the modern era.
…
Germy Shoemangler
@Suzanne: I’m not surprised at how you were treated. Congratulations for quitting. Maybe it was a learning experience for them.
What amazes me is you worked in a place where management gave a crap about what interns felt or thought.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Corner Stone:
There goes my chances.
J R in WV
@mclaren:
I have to agree with mclaren 100% here. The media/press has completely given up on any sense of morals or professional ethics in order to savage any Democratic office-holder or candidate that the masters of the universe point the at.
The absurd accusations against the Clintons when Bill ran for office the first time were a good example of the obvious prejudice urban media drones feel for anyone from a rural state, where the drink of choice isn’t a dirty martini with a Cuban cigar. They treated Bill like he was an uneducated moron (instead of Harvard / Rhodes scholar!!) and Hillary like she was a tramp he picked up in a pool hall, instead of a lawyer with the same education as Bill.
They blasted both Clintons for the entire 8 years Bill served as one of the better Presidents we have ever had, with a total lack of care for truth, justice, or the American way. Despicable is just one of the words to describe the behavior of the press which is printable and suitable for the youth.
If I was with the Clinton campaign, I would make sure to have our own cameras set up for any interview, so that we would have film of what was asked and how, and the response Hillary gave, to put the CNN dirt grubbers on notice that they can’t mess with the film AT ALL in any way or heads will roll. For any interview, for any discussion, debate, any time the enemy has cameras, Hillary needs cameras, pointing at the people who are going to attempt to slime her with falsehoods and repuiblican accusations that don’t hold water.
This is going to be a dirty fight, and one of the ways these guys fight dirty is to mess with your images. If you have the real images, without halting hesitations, just for a tiny example, then they may not even attempt it. But you know those propaganda artists are thinking about any way to make her look weak, indecisive, feminine when she needs to be hard.
I got an Obama bumper sticker and put in on our 2006 Jetta the day after he declared and official campaign stuff was available. It was still there when we traded it last summer. I also had on on my pickup truck, which I bought in August, 2008. It was still there when we rolled the truck on I-25 in northern New Mexico.
Now I’m gonna get a Hillary bumper sticker for the new VW we bought when we got rid of the Jetta. I’m feeling like I need to get a PU truck, maybe a used F-150 or a Ram Tradesman, the neighbor has one that I like a lot. Hillary stickers would look good on that kind of vehicle!
I’m gonna do phone banking, contribute money, not just for Hillz but also for local races. Until the day I can’t make a phone work, or can’t remember the candidate’s name, I’m going to be fighting the republicans and their nazi candidates!
@mclaren: And this comment is pure gold. Just wait for them to go off track into the weeds with republican accusations instead of professional questions, and push the button, to watch then suffer for their terrible unethical and unprofessional behavior!
Cervantes
@gian:
Were the policy differences between Romney and not-Romney comparable to the differences we see between Clinton and not-Clinton?
Corner Stone
@Suzanne:
Lawsuit, much?
Corner Stone
@BillinGlendaleCA:
I’m pretty sure your more than questionable taste in music sealed that option off quite some time ago.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: There’s friendly and there’s friendly. Oddly, both can get you sued.
Elizabelle
Open thread?
Thinking of young Lovey, going in tomorrow for spaying and probably wondering why she’s not snacking as usual tonight.
Pet pic would be great; Cole’s pups, cat, or indoor deer.
Or Lovey.
Suzanne
@Corner Stone: Last night’s thread had me in hysterics. Because I am evil.
@Germy Shoemangler: They only cared because they were understaffed and couldn’t find people at the actual skill levels they needed, so they hired shit-tons of interns. Literally over half of the office was interns when I left. Some of the interns were good. Some of them were lazy pieces of shit and they didn’t like that I expected work to get done on time, even if it meant staying past 5pm. I refused to smile at them. Seriously, I was told that my leadership style should be to make them love me so much that they wouldn’t want to disappoint me. I said that this was not elementary school and that I have my own friends.
HRC is basically getting this same shit. Shit that, I will note, no one ever thinks of saying to a man.
Joel
@FlipYrWhig: David Miscavaige?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Corner Stone: My tastes in music were pretty mainstream in my day, junior. Now get off my lawn.
Suzanne
@Corner Stone: They wanted me to touch people warmly on the arm and shoulder, give hugs, etc. I don’t do any of that unless I’m drunk.
I am not a cold person, far from it, but I don’t like to touch people in that setting. So apparently I am read as bitchy. (I was also told that I have a “stony” look, so I told my boss about the term “resting bitch face”.) Oh well.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
I missed that announcement. May she be fine with the snip-snip.
Corner Stone
@BillinGlendaleCA: As HRC said on FDR Island, “They all believe in Yesterday.”
Gimlet
I just can’t resist posting this
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/06/as-greece-collapses-big-loser-is-socialism.html
By Stephen Moore
Greece is formally in default on its loans and in the weeks ahead as more IMF and EU loans come due, Greece is about to slide into fiscal oblivion. This is the natural and unavoidable consequence of socialism everywhere it has been tried.
Financial collapse.
Greece is already overtaxed, and adding more taxing the few businesses that are still functioning is only going to ensure their eventual demise too. Meanwhile the Greek citizens have come to the conclusion that fat pensions and cradle to grave welfare benefits are a human right that can never be taken away. That is what they declared in the referendum. But those benefits are going to be taken away. Socialism has radically reduced the standard of living of the citizens.
All of the conventional EU and IMF solutions – two of Greece’s top creditors – side step the root cause of the Greek tragi-comedy. The Greek citizens are simply living way, way beyond their means.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gimlet: Oh FFS.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Corner Stone: With all due respect to HRC, yesterday happened and is known; I don’t need to believe in Yesterday.
Keith G
So the guy John links to begins his post by typing:
Christ on a one legged snapping turtle.
Maybe we should give the readership here 24 hours to have a chance to fit in time to watch and then get back to comment.
FWIW..I think most folks are not following this stuff. Even political junkies I know are on summer mode and more concerned about a host of other things.
If this keeps up, I may have to re-connect with my substance abuse counselor. Things are getting too weird too early for me and in the field of weird I turned pro a long time ago.
kimora
@Suzanne: Exactly. I get tired of that shit too.I do not come to work to be your Mama…I left my kids at home.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
You expected nuanced analysis from Fox?
Baud
@Keith G:
Or your dealer.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Keith G: Read or re-read “The Hunting of the President”, it’s SOP for the media(especially the NYT and WP).
Gimlet
@Omnes Omnibus:
Stephen Moore is a known commodity
PRAIRIE VILLAGE, KS — “I won’t be running anything else from Stephen Moore.”
So says Miriam Pepper, editorial page editor of the Kansas City Star—and not just because she’s retiring this week. Pepper’s no-Moore stance comes after her paper discovered substantial factual errors in a recent guest op-ed by Moore, the chief economist at the conservative Heritage Foundation.
The episode serves as a cautionary tale for editors navigating the disputes of rival policy advocates—and a case study in the delicate art of running a correction.
It all began a month ago, when the Star ran a piece by the Nobel Prize-winning economist-turned- liberal New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, as it does regularly. The column named Moore as one of the “charlatans and cranks” who have influenced policymakers at all levels to enact low-tax, supply-side economic policies—with ruinous effects, according to Krugman. The sweeping 2013 tax cut in Kansas is only the latest example, he wrote, citing unfavorable economic and fiscal news in the Sunflower State.
After the column ran, Pepper told me, “I was contacted by Moore’s people saying they wanted to run a response.” In the interest of fairness, she agreed.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: No, but it still manages to surprise me on occasion.
mclaren
@east is east:
If so, America is lost
Joe Biden is the guy whose bill created the position of Drug Czar. Joe Biden is the guy whose bill created asset forfeiture. Joe Biden never met an illegal unconstitutional wiretap or sneak-and-peek break-in by police he didn’t like. And for three long years, Joe Biden urged everyone to take “one last shot” in Iraq and keep U.S. troops there, long after it had become obvious to everyone with a nervous system that the Iraq invasion was a futile failure of epic proportions.
Joe Biden on the Don Imus show, 8/17/2006:
“We’ve got one last shot here to separate these parties [in the Iraq civil war], and you have to do it politically.”
Joe Biden, Fox News, 11/21/2005: (Should we leave Iraq right now?)
“Not immediately, no. I can understand Jack’s frustration. This is a guy who has concluded that so far we’ve handled this effort incompetently, but it seems to me that we have one last shot at
getting this right.”
Joe Biden, Charlie Rose show, 21 June 2005:
“I personally think we should not set an exit date. I personally think we should take one last shot at trying to do this the right way. I think it still can be done, although more difficult.”
Joe Biden, Face the Nation, 6/19/2004:
“We need time. There’s one last shot at getting this right in Iraq.”
Joe Biden, Hardball, 24 May 2004:
“We’ve made significant mistakes. Our one last shot to get this right, unite the world, convince the Iraqi people that this is not just a U.S. occupation, is June 30.”
Joe Biden, 11/7/2003:
“I am convinced we have one last shot at bringing the world into Iraq,” said Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, the senior Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee. “We must do everything in our power to seize it.”
One last shot…for THREE FUCKING GODDAMN YEARS. Joe Biden is George
W. Bush with a kinder gentler genocidal murder program.
Joe Biden tells ABC News: “… I think legalization [of marijuana] is a mistake. I still believe it’s a gateway drug. I’ve spent a lot of my life as chairman of the Judiciary Committee dealing with this. I think it would be a mistake to legalize.”
Joe Biden criticizes George H. W. Bush for not waging a savage enough War on Drugs in 1988: “In 1988, the major drug bill he had spent years crafting became law. Included was the creation of a national drug czar, a key Biden objective and a job that went to Republican William Bennett. Biden vowed to be Capital Hill’s point man in pressing the new Bush administration on antidrug spending and helping Bennett navigate his way through a thorny bureaucratic thicket of multiple congressional jurisdictions. When Pres. Bush announced his 1989 antidrug plan, Biden showed no hesitation in criticizing him for not finding initiatives already on the books. He called for higher taxes on cigarettes and tobacco (neither of which he ever used) to pay for them. Biden unleashed his old fire: “Mr. President, you say you want a war on drugs, but if that’s what you want we need another D-Day. Instead you’re giving us another Vietnam–a limited war fought on the cheap, financed on the sly, with no clear objectives, and ultimately destined for stalemate and human tragedy.”
Source: “Biden,” The Agitator website, 23 August 2008.
Source: “Joe Biden Drafted the Core of the Patriot Act in 1995 …Before the Oklahoma City Bombing,” Washington’s blog, 10 December 2011.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: And from someone who is not an economist(Josh Barro once pointed that out).
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Hey. I’m not an economist. I should write about this stuff.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Okay, McClaren is starting to McClaren, time for a clean thread
@BillinGlendaleCA: that’s interesting. I’m pretty sure Maher (the only place I see him) always introduces him as an economist before allowing him to rather spastically take over the panels on his show.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Why not? By Josh’s definition, I am an economist(I have a MA in the dismal science).
samiam
Cole the wanker is wanking again because he has Hillary issues. Just admit you are voting Republican again Cole.
That site he is linking to has got to be a joke right? First paragraph he is saying he hasn’t seen the Hillary interview but he heard it was bad. Second paragraph he is saying how awesome Trump is. This has be a joke site right?
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
I’m sorry.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: He has a BA in Economics and styles himself as an economist. Josh’s criteria for calling someone an economist is an advanced degree in the subject(Josh’s dad is Robert Barro, a Econ prof).
Keith G
@Baud:
I think he will be occupied for another 10 years.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: No worries, I’ve never worked in the field.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud:
What you are is almost as bad, so go right ahead.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Some would say worse.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I am modest.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Omnes Omnibus: Worse? Is Baud a lawyer?
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
I take the Fifth!
mclaren
@jl:
“A certain kind of personality” is the key phrase here. My first extensive exposure to The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student was in the 2000 presidential debate, and my immediate reaction was that this was a repulsive sadistic no-neck anti-intellectual bully with a servile sneer. The kind of zitbrain frat boy who loves branding new pledges with red-hot coathangers, but becomes cringingly obsequious to older and wealthier members of the same fraternity.
I recall specifically the moment when I decided The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student was a clueless anti-intellectual asshole: Al Gore made a comment in the 2000 presidential debate involving lots of statistics, and The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student smirked and sneered and leered, “Well, I don’t have my calculator with me right now, but that doesn’t sound right to me.” And the audience laughed.
Yeah, let’s all yuck it up, because everyone knows a policy wonk like Al Gore who can cite facts and numbers off the top of his head isn’t a real man and can’t be trusted with manly responsible things…like running the United States.
Boy, did that bully-worshiping anti-intellectual audience ever get an education after 21 January 2009.
Moreover, my visceral reaction against The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student was shared by all the friends I watched that 2000 presidential debate with, and the overwhelming majority of the people I know. So the type of person who reacted well to the alleged “charisma” of The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student wasn’t a majority of the American population by any means. Basically only bully-worshiping punk kissass-wannabe no-neck rednecks and erstwhile nouveau riche aspiring gaybashers and holy rollers really liked The Drunk Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student. Everyone else couldn’t stand that fucking little smug sadistic airheaded prick.
Omnes Omnibus
@BillinGlendaleCA: I will let Baud answer that.
Corner Stone
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Elitist!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@BillinGlendaleCA: I was gonna say that another prominent GOP non-economist was James Glassman, advisor to McCain and Romney, but I googled to double-check and it was Gassman’s co-author of Dow 36,0000 (1999, right before what was then considered the 2nd stock market crash), Kevin Hassett (Ph.D., Penn) who advised them. Gassman is the founding president of the George W Bush Institute, which makes that book the 2nd most embarrassing thing on his resume.
James Kenneth Glassman (born January 1, 1947) is the founding executive director of the George W. Bush Institute, a public policy development institution focused on creating independent, non-partisan solutions to America’s most pressing public policy problems through the principles that guided President George W. Bush and his wife Laura in public life.[1] The George W. Bush Institute is based within the George W. Bush Presidential Center on the campus of Southern Methodist University in Dallas.[2]
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: You have friends? Are they visible to others?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Omnes Omnibus: I think he may have, I’ll have consult my pocket Constitution to be sure.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
To be fair, W. was one of America’s most pressing policy problems, so maybe the institute is aptly named.
mclaren
@Baud:
Seriously — maybe you should.
Folks, this adoration of economists with advanced degrees is distinctly misplaced. One of the best of the breed is Brad deLong (J. Bradford deLong to you), and he openly admits he got just about everything wrong.
DeLong thought the Lehman brothers meltdown would go no farther than Wall Street. Instead, it crashed the world economy. DeLong thought America would have a short V-shaped recovery. Instead, here we are 6 years after the global economy imploded, and everything is still fucked up, with U.S. GDP growth still mired in the mud at sub-2%, near stall speed. DeLong thought (and confidently predicted) that Greece would never be allowed to default and the Eurozone would never be so insane as to demand the kind of crazy punitive austerity measures thta would force Greece to abandon the Euro. He was wrong. DeLong thought that congress would be running around with its hair on fire trying to kick-start the economy if we ever got a employment-to-population ratio as low as it is today. DeLong was wrong. DeLong thought the output gap caused by the 2009 recent recession would be short-lived and quickly closed. Instead, it’s widening. DeLong thought no state in the U.S. would ever be insane enough to reject medicaid expansion allowed by ACA, because (according to his analysis) it would damage the growth rate of those states by at least 6%. DeLong was wrong.
And, hell! At least Delong admits he was wrong ! Other loons (so-called “professional economists”) like Robert Lucas continue to gibber crazy drivel and make ridiculous failed predictions (*cough* runaway inflation as a result of quarterly easing, anyone? *cough*) and goddamn Lucas got the Nobel prize of economics, fer cripes sake.
To see how bad today’s economists are, check out `Department of “Huh!?”–No, Department of “WTF!?!?!?!?”: Robert Lucas Edition,’ Brad DeLong’s blog, 2011.
Considering that all the professional economists with advanced degrees have gotten everything wrong about the 2009 global meltdown and aftermath, at this point a monkey with a barrel of darts would do a lot better job of prognostication than a professional economist.
mclaren
@Baud:
Sir, you have just won the internet. This comment is best-of-thread.
Cervantes
@MBunge:
Astute.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
all of you thinking Donald Trump wouldn’t face any consequences….
.
I wonder if Reince will call him “Mr Trump” during this conversation
Germy Shoemangler
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: No one tells Mr. Trump what to say, how to act, or what to do.
His teachers couldn’t, his parents couldn’t, his wives couldn’t.
Mr. Priebus, when you’re done with Mr. Trump, please come have a word with my cat about the hairball vomit thing she does.
mclaren
@Cervantes:
Indeed. Hillary is bad at politics because she’s a wonk (like Al Gore). Mitt Romney is bad at politics because he’s a sociopath who has trouble emulating human beings.
Cervantes
@mclaren:
Pretty good, no question.
jl
@mclaren: Speaking as an economist, it is true that economists are often wrong. But the advantage to listening to a range of economist opinion is that the truth is usually someplace in the range of opinion, and you can identify honest and competent ones who will go back and try to find out why they are wrong, and explain how they will try to do better next time.
Dean Baker has a better record than DeLong, IMHO, BTW. And Krugman has done better since the last time he went from his gut and made some deficit scold style disaster predictions during first GW term. James Galbraith has also done well.
Moor is a problem though. Even though he has an MA in economics, he usually goes wrong in ways that economists like DeLong cannot even imagine.
Cervantes
@mclaren:
Romney is pretty wonky within his domain, too, but I agree that his lack of common understanding — call it human empathy — is one of his defining characteristics.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
There is one thing that I care less about about than Clinton’s candidacy. That thing is the villagers opinions of her.
jl
@Cervantes: I think Mitt Romney is very wonky and expert about extracting cash from various social and business enterprises and organizations.
Edit: problem for him as president, I think, is that the enterprise or organization he would be very wonky and expert at extracting cash from, would be you, my friend.
Cervantes
@jl:
Details matter but, on the whole, keeping it simple, I would agree.
Cervantes
@jl:
Could not agree more.
Cervantes
@mclaren:
I agree with much of what you say but … can a sneer be servile?
FlipYrWhig
@Cervantes: For “sneer” read “simper,” I think. ETA: Or for “servile” read “supercilious.”
J R in WV
@mclaren:
Tonight, tonight! you are channeling some force that also channels in me. Those are the words I wish I had said about Bush that night!
What a total Frat-Boy bully with the smirk to match his IQ!
I really think from his withdrawal over the past 7 years (or so) he finally realize how in over his head he was, and what a disaster he had allowed to happen on his watch.
I just wish he had had the courage Iit is to laugh) to visit the military hospitals to award medals to the wounded, hurt in his little vengeful war against that 3 world dictator who attempted to kill his dad, Senior President Bush. He never did that as far as I know, so he probably still had no understanding of the misery and destruction that is directly his fault. First for fomenting the war in the beginning, and second, for allowing Rummy and Cheney to do it on the cheap, firing any general who told the truth about war in the Middle East!!
Then finally allowing some kiss-ass general who said all the right (No, wrong!) things about how to plan and execute a war thousands of miles from the North American arsenals of democracy to plan and execute a terrible sorry attempt at war making, that still is resulting in death and misery for hundreds of thousands of refugees and militia members.
What an incompetent boob! But you said it better, mclaren. So: Thank You!
Turgidson
@mclaren:
Most of the stuff you cite is a result not of DeLong being a bad economist, but of DeLong not fully understanding or believing just how far today’s GOP was willing to go to burn the country to the ground if they weren’t allowed to rule it, and worse, if that boy Barry Hussein Obummer was going to insist on winning and trying to do stuff once in office. Our policy response would have been more robust (though likely still too modest) if the GOP had sit down and shut the fuck up while the Democrats governed for a while like a lot of people (myself included) expected them to. Instead they spewed ignorant nonsense and threw sand in the gears every chance they got, and this country in its infinite wisdom gave them a house of Congress back as soon as they got the chance. America F Yeah.
That sort of “the GOP may be a bunch of cranks, but they would never do ____” thinking was surprisingly common in 2009. Less so now, except among the Ron “Severe Dementia” Fournier clique.
Cervantes
@J R in WV:
That was … gracious, and remarkably so.
Anyhow, I hope you’re right about lessons G. W. has learned — but positive evidence is scarce.
Cervantes
@Turgidson:
Expecting even the basics of reasonable political behavior from the Republican Party has been completely unrealistic since 1992, when Clinton’s victory rudely interrupted their twelve-year orgy — and certainly since 1994 when the “Gingrich revolution” avenged that defeat.
Not that you said otherwise, of course.
geg6
@Elizabelle:
Lovey is not at all happy tonight. No treats has made her ornery, even though I made sure to mix her favorite wet food (made with shrimp, calimari and sardines…blech!) with her dry before I had to cut off food at 6pm. She has been so bad tonight!!!!
Debbie
@Baud:
And how great would it be if she came out and said, “If I’m not as accessible as you’d like, it’s because you wouldn’t ask anything relevant about the issues facing the country now and in the future.”
divF
@jl:
ETA: I have a feeling I will be muttering the Pauli quote to myself on a continuing basis during the GOP primary season.
mclaren
@jl:
This is absolutely true under normal economic conditions. The trouble is that when the economic conditions become grossly out of line for the standard economic models that economists have gotten used to employing, the predictions of all economists tend to turn to crap.
Example: the 2009 economic meltdown. Another example: Greece and the Eurozone.
These situations are so far outside the norm for conventional economics that standard macro tends not to predict what’s going to happen. One reason for that is that standard macro assumes people are rational. When the global economy melts down, people panic and become irrational. Or when the Greek economy blows up, once again people in both Greece and Europe start running around like chimps on crack that have been doused in gasoline and set on fire. They do crazy things. Things that, given standard economic assumptions of people increasing their marginal utility, just don’t make sense.
We see the same bizarre behavior, by the way, with the deep red states refusing medicaid expansions. From an economic viewpoint, this is just nuts. No rational expectation model of an economic systems would predict that behavior, and rational expectations is the dominant model right now.
Yet the red states are leaving many billions of dollars on the table and damaging their state economies badly in the process, for wacky ideological reasons that make no sense economically.
Maybe behavioral economic will fix this gap twixt reality and economic models. But I’m not optimistic about the prospects for that.
What I find particularly disturbing is that this stuff of “under normal conditions conventional economics works well” seems to getting rarer and rarer because the normal conditions have become increasingly infrequent over the last 30 years. We seem not only to be getting bubbles in the global economy, but the bubbles appear to have gotten more frequent and more severe. Right now America has got a giant student loan bubble, another incipient mortgage-backed-security housing rental bubble (big banks buy foreclosed properties to rent ’em out and finance this by aggregating junk mortgages and selling the paper to investors), another huge medical-industrial bubble (wait till you see what the TPP does to explode drug costs!), a huge subprime auto loan bubble, and so on. The bubbles seem to be the “new normal.” And conventional economics was not created to deal with that situation.
Brachiator
@mclaren: Nice summary about economists and DeLong. The additional problem here is that leaders are relying on economists to make political judgements, an area far beyond their areas of competence, even when they get the economics part right.
mclaren
@Turgidson:
There’s a lot of truth in what you’re saying. Still…I distinctly recall deLong and many other respected professional economists arguing in late 2007/early 2008 “the subprime housing mortgages only make up 5% of the total market value of the housing market, so there’s no chance that this thing can snowball out of control and crash the world economy.”
They were basically laughing off any likelihood that the global economy would crater.
Boy, were they wrong.
Professional economists use linear models. The world economy went radically non-linear and tits-up in 2007.
Moreover, no one predicted it. I don’t recall a single professional economist warning about the size of the shadow market (derivatives) in 2005 or 2006. I don’t recall a single professional economist warning that the global economy would blow up and the Baltic Dry Index shrivel up to nothing unless something was done to contain the crazy skyrocketing housing prices in 2004 or 2005.
mtiffany
@Archon: 10000 people didn’t show up for Bernie Sanders because of the fucking media.
rikyrah
@Baud:
I don’t like Hillary, but I would never hold against her the contempt that she has for the media. Those clowns deserve no respect.
jl
@mclaren: Financial deregulation created an informational black hole. Not even the bankers and finacial masters of the universe themselves understood the extent of systematic risk. A lot of economists did warn about the dangers of the kind of deregulation that took place from late Clinton yeas through Bush II.
If I may ask, and it is a non-snarky question, did you make any specific predictions beyond ‘something bad will happen to financial markets’? If not, you are as just as good as the economists.
Edit: Dean Baker and Stiglitz were on housing bubble long before 2007/8. And it comes to mind that Stiglitz was very accurate about how financial panic would unfold in early 2008, probably too late for your liking, but if so, you should point to your own predictions that are close to as good as Stiglitz’s and earlier.
mclaren
@jl:
I certainly didn’t predict that the global economy would crater as a result of the housing bubble. I didn’t have a clue about that.
Dean Baker and Robert Shiller were the main guys I recall predicting that the housing bubble was crazy. But even they didn’t predict that the global economy would crash as a result of it, if memory serves.
As for Joe Stiglitz, I dunno about him as a prophet. Do you recall this 2002 paper in which Jonathan Orzag, Peter Orszag and Joseph Stiglitz stated:
The paper is “Implications of the New Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Risk-Based Capital Standard,” 2002, Volume 1, issue 2, Fannie Mae Papers.
different-church-lady
@James E Powell:
Merely existing since 1992 hasn’t done that?
different-church-lady
@Germy Shoemangler:
Fixed.
different-church-lady
@Keith G:
Queen. Hearts. Sentence. Verdict. Order. All that all that.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus: Shit, and I’ve already awarded my Today’s Internets.
Omnes Omnibus
@different-church-lady: Ta, muchly.
tomtofa
@J R in WV:
Thanks, Obama
Eolirin
@mclaren: People missed the way the shadow banking system was so deeply interwoven with the rest of the economy and thus failed to appreciate the dangers it possessed, but the way things went down actually match pretty damn well to standard Keynesian Macro. Once you look at the shadow banking collapse as a bank run, everything else fits the existing models pretty well, and the Keynesians got a lot of stuff right that the non-Keynesians (and non-economists) didn’t, like the way that inflation wouldn’t happen despite the huge expansion of the monetary base, because we were in a liquidity trap, or how austerity would be ultimately self defeating, even in terms of reducing debt, as it’s proven in Greece.
The problem hasn’t really been with conventional economics. Yeah, people missed stuff, but people will always miss stuff; we don’t castigate medicine as useless when some doctors fail to correctly identify the cause of a particular illness, or meteorology when forecasters gets a storm wrong. The value of an economic model isn’t whether people will 100% of the time properly predict black swan effects, but whether, when they happen, the models say useful and non-obvious things about the consequences and how to recover from them. Keynesian Macro has done exceptionally well by that standard. There has been a tremendous amount of necessary and correct policy guidance that was completely ignored and that continues to be ignored in places like Europe and Kansas with predictable consequences.
Applejinx
The person I listen to on economics is Mark Blyth, look him up. Cranky Scot ivy league professor who is stubbornly right no matter how many crazy people pontificate otherwise. Mark “How many divisions do the Cayman Islands have?” Blyth.
The person I want for President is Bernie Sanders, and I have to respectfully suggest he’s got the ‘have a beer with’ vote locked up across both parties. He could take a guy like Trump apart, he is not the least bit impressed by any of their crap because he has values. Bernie’s genuinely dangerous to the parts of American politics that are wrecking the country.
That said, I accept that the media is completely unfair to Clinton, and she handles that as well as any person possibly could. I totally get the ‘Clinton is presented with totally unfair expectations and treatment’, I respect that it’s unreasonable. I just don’t find that an argument to support Clinton more than as “possibly the Dem if we can’t make Bernie the Dem”. I already don’t give a shit about the media and already don’t respect them or listen to them. Why should I like Hillary just because they hate her? What does that have to do with me, or with Hillary’s positions and policy?
I figure we can steer Hillary by making Bernie win: then if he does fail to clinch it, Hillary will have a mandate to be Bernie Lite. Wish I had more money to give Bernie. Don’t have the same feeling about Hillary’s campaign, but those who do, by all means throw money at her. She has additional resources Bernie won’t have. She has resources Bernie is campaigning against…
As Joan Rivers said to a competitor, ironically ON Trump’s TV show when the competitor played a ‘I’m just a little girl trying to get by in a tough reality show’ card: “You’re not a girl, darling, you’re a woman”. Hillary Clinton is a tough stubborn determined pol. She might not get the best advice but you’re not going to make me feel sorry for her by saying the media suck and are muckrakers.
I knew that already, and she knows it, and neither of us care. Show me what she’s gonna do that’s as good as what Bernie would try to do, and make me believe she’d go through with it rather than just blowing smoke.