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Technically true, but collectively nonsense

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You are here: Home / Music / Let me clear my throat

Let me clear my throat

by | 251 Comments

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I have a hot take that I’ve been meaning to share with you for a while but couldn’t find the right time til now. Here it is: singing crappily on popular records is the ultimate white male privilege.

Let’s leave polarizing examples like Bob Dylan and Neil Young out of this for now. Can you imagine a black person or a woman sounding as awful on vocals as the guy from Wilco or the guy from Death Cab For Cutie and still getting played on the radio? I can’t.

I know what you’re thinking. Lenny Kravitz? I thought he sounded pretty good on “It Ain’t Over Til It’s Over”, though admittedly it’s been downhill ever since. Liz Phair? Fair enough, but everyone talked about how bad her voice was all the time, and she was barely on the radio anyway.

Update. A few points

(1) Obviously not all white men.

(2) The Red Hot Chili Pepper guy is a better example than Jeff Tweedy.

(3) I thought the white angle here was pretty well-established, given that “I didn’t know he was white” is shorthand for “that guy can sing”.

(4) I mostly listen to a totebagger radio show that doesn’t play too much Top 40 stuff so I don’t mean this as autotune versus real genuine artistes. The women they play a lot of generally sing like angels — Susan Tedeschi, the woman from Hurray For the Riff Raff, Sharon Jones, Emmy Lou Harris. The men — Wilco guy, the Avett Brothers (ugh), Elvis Costello (though I love him!) — don’t.

Reader Interactions

251Comments

  1. 1.

    Mike J

    Liz Phair was an indie rocker, as was Lenny Kravitz. I think your examples prove that indie rock has more tolerance for lower quality vocals. In fact, auto tuned pitch perfect vocals are a sign of in-authenticity.

  7. 7.

    beltane

    This is the type of music thread that is guaranteed to devolve into a screaming match.

    I’m guessing Neil Young is in the divisive category with Bob Dylan.

  8. 8.

    Botsplainer

    Still giggling over the Duggar participation on Ashley Madison.

    I’m now convinced that the hack was commissioned by the Family Law Section of the American Bar Association, in partnership with TMZ.

    It’s gonna be a gold mine of misery, and I’m gonna exploit it.

  10. 10.

    trollhattan

    So long as Jeff Tweedy keeps producing Mavis (and Pops) Staples he can do whatever the hell he wants with Wilco.

  11. 11.

    piratedan

    so the Beastie Boys are the exception that proves the rule?

    as a general rule, I’d like my vocalists to at least carry a tune but I guess these days what is deemed tuneful has a wide range of acceptance.

  12. 12.

    KG

    @DougJ: I love Joplin, but her voice was always gravelly. maybe that was unique to the time because you could say the same thing about Jim Morrison.

  13. 13.

    DougJ

    @beltane:

    I just edited it to add him in.

    I may have to Bruce in there too, though to me his singing is just bad. (His songs are often pretty good I’ll admit.)

  14. 14.

    mzrad

    haha: I have a weekly show on our local community radio station and I’ve made kind of relentless fun of the terribleness of Dylan’s latest album. I can’t even listen to Neil Young anymore despite our alignment on political/social issues. Bad singing by famous white guys is very emperor’s new clothes.

  17. 17.

    Emma

    @DougJ: If she is, I’m not. Joplin’s voice sounds like it’s being pulled naked over steel wool. The fact that I also find it fascinating to watch her has nothing to do with it.

  20. 20.

    jl

    Don’t know if others agree, but Jimi Hendrix thought he had a crappy voice, and one of the current Stones he roomed with for awhile agreed, said his guitar playing would make up for it.

    And does Flava Flav count. Or is Chuck D the only real vocal on Public Enemy?

  21. 21.

    ranchandsyrup

    in hip hop, if the flow is good it doesn’t matter how weird someone sounds. Lil wayne sounds weird.

    I think some of the white singers like Malkmus or Thom Yorke seem to be in the “weird for the sake of weird” camp where deliberate or earnestly bad singing is embraced by fans.

    Sigur Ros treats Jonsi’s voice as an instrument so they made up a language “Hopelandic” for him to use. It sounds beautiful.

    just observations.

  22. 22.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @Emma:

    I’m assuming we’re talking about some kind of “objectively good” standard here. Joplin is interesting to hear, but it’s hard to claim she had a “good” voice the way, say, Mama Cass had a good voice.

  23. 23.

    Roger Moore

    @beltane:
    I’d check to see what’s going on with the data. As I understand it, Ashley Madison’s business strategy was to charge men for their basic service but to give it to women for free. So the billing records should skew very heavily male.

  27. 27.

    Woodrow/asim

    Couple of things Obama and I have in common:

    1) We’re both black,

    2) We both like Wilco.

  30. 30.

    Joel

    Wesley Willis, and he’s the exception that really proves the rule. Wonder if Eddie Vedder regrets taking advantage of a mentally ill person in that way.

  31. 31.

    trollhattan

    Joplin had to be seen to be appreciated. Get thee to a copy of “Monterey Pop” and watch her, and the crowd’s response. IIRC there are cutaways to Mama Cass Elliot who’s in absolute reverie–a woman who knew a thing or two about singing. Be sure to stay for Jimi.

    Kids…[hrrmph]

  35. 35.

    Seanly

    Yeah, give me some of that auto-tuned pop crap. I especially love the auto-tuning that’s done to such a degree that I think I’m listening to HAL-9000 and not Fergie/Tania/Shania/Brittany/Taylor/Teylur/whatever. Forget those folks making the music they want because they aren’t pitch fucking perfect. If it’s not brewed by the ad execs to be a commercial success then it doesn’t deserve to be on the radio.

    /snark

    I like Liz Phair. Love, love, love Kristin Hersh (solo & Throwing Muses) – unfortunately, her intensity has pretty much wrecked her voice. College music/alternative/indie FTW.

  36. 36.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @DougJ:

    Imma let you finish, but I’m about to give you some real divisiveness:

    Elvis Costello is not an objectively good singer.

    He is, however, brilliant at writing music in the perfect vocal range for himself (as is Springsteen), which is why I love him so.

  38. 38.

    Joel

    @Keith G: yeah, basically. Although there’s definitely a gender bias in, say, folk music. Stack up the top female singers against their male counterparts.

  39. 39.

    Joel

    @Seanly: autotuning can work — Daft Punk used it to great effect on Discovery, which is the last album they ever released.

  40. 40.

    Tree With Water

    I know the Beatles always gave due props to the “girl groups” that kept the torch alive after Elvis was drafted. They liberally sprinkled their pre-fab stage shows with contemporaneous covers of the bird singer’s* hits, and even included a few on their first albums. They must have learned at least some musical tricks from them, too, in addition to having dug the music well enough to play it..

    *a term of respect used by the four guys from Liverpool.

  41. 41.

    ranchandsyrup

    @DougJ: me too. 2 of my favorite bands. Malkmus deliberately sang goofy/off key. they have dissonance in their guitar playing as well. Thom’s not a good singer (imo) but he’s conveys emotions well, sometimes through the imperfections of his singing.

  42. 42.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @Joel:

    It’s complicated, though, because without his music career, Willis probably would have been homeless and living on the streets since he refused psychiatric care for his psychosis. And I do think the musicians and artists who admired Willis genuinely admired him and didn’t just consider him a freak show. But it’s always hard to tell where the line is when you’re dealing with someone who’s mentally ill.

  45. 45.

    Mike J

    @DougJ: And to continue, black people and women are under represented among indie rockers. Not to say there aren’t any, but for every Neko Case there are 10 white guys. Indie rock has always been a (white) boys club.

  52. 52.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I love Bonnie Raitt but I don’t think hers is considered a traditionally “good” singing voice (?), same with Melissa Etheridge. I heard Rickie Lee Jones on one of the XM stations today, and she got a lot of radio play back in the… somethings. Chuck E’s in love? couple others? another non-traditional voice.

    I had a couple others whose voices I hate–Norah Jones, Feist– but I guess they’d be considered technically good singers, I just find them precious and mannered.

    Speaking of Precious, I don’t think Chrissie Hynde wasn’t gonna get any degrees in singing from Berklee. (not the version I was looking for, the one on their EP was a bit more raw, younger)

  53. 53.

    Karen in GA

    @Botsplainer:

    Still giggling over the Duggar participation on Ashley Madison.

    Wait, what?

    Back on topic, I haven’t read all the comments yet because Duggar!, but another celebrated bad male singer: Mick Jagger.

    Anthony Kiedis, also, too.

  55. 55.

    ASV

    Slightly off-topic: Remember when the press called rappers “rap singers”? That was weird.

    Directly on-topic, if we take the post title to be the topic: I bet DJ Kool couldn’t sing for shit.

  56. 56.

    Botsplainer

    One observation from something I’ve been thinking lately as I bounced across some shit from Jason Derulo and Ed Sheeran, which got me to thinking about the loathsome Sherry by the Four Seasons:

    What girl (or guy, if that’s how they roll) over the age of 11 ever threw themselves at a musician singing falsetto?

  58. 58.

    Botsplainer

    @Karen in GA:

    Joshie had a premium paid account on Ashley Madison up until recently. Boy paid nearly a thou from his Family Values earnings to meet lots of nice women looking to hook up – even got “The Affair Guarantee” level.

  59. 59.

    Karen in GA

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I always thought Norah Jones was kind of bland, rather than mannered. I think Rickie Lee Jones can sing, but I’d have expected her to be called precious and mannered before Norah Jones. YMM, obviously, V.

    (I love Rickie Lee Jones, BTW.)

  65. 65.

    Botsplainer

    @Karen in GA:

    Yup, long after the straight, proper, not gay nuptials occurred. The boy just needs some tender attention, the kind that his sweet little bride was too preoccupied with children and household chores to do.

    Gays must be to blame somewhere.

  66. 66.

    Omnes Omnibus

    How exactly does one define a good voice? An opera tenor might be magnificent in his genre, but crap as a soul man. Who had the better voice Pavarotti or Sam Cooke? A good rock and roll voice might not do justice to Tin Pan Alley. And so on…

  67. 67.

    Trooptrap Tripetrope

    Tom Waits, anyone? By any conventional standard he’s a terrible singer. But he’s one of my favorite musical artists of all time.

  69. 69.

    Botsplainer

    Gawker did it best.

    gawker.com/family-values-activist-josh-duggar-had-a-paid-ashley-ma-1725132091

    In 2013, conservative reality TV star Josh Duggar—of TLC’s 19 Kids and Counting fame—was named the executive director of the Family Research Council, a conservative lobbying group in D.C. which seeks “to champion marriage and family as the foundation of civilization, the seedbed of virtue, and the wellspring of society.” During that time, he also maintained a paid account on Ashley Madison, a web site created for the express purpose of cheating on your spouse.
    …
    Someone using a credit card belonging to a Joshua J. Duggar, with a billing address that matches the home in Fayetteville, Arkansas owned by his grandmother Mary—a home that was consistently shown on their now-cancelled TV show, and in which Anna Duggar gave birth to her first child—paid a total of $986.76 for two different monthly Ashley Madison subscriptions from February of 2013 until May of 2015.
    …
    In July 2014*, he seems to have started a second account that was linked to his home in Oxon Hill, Maryland, where he spent his time lobbying against causes like same-sex marriage. The birthday listed in the data for Duggar’s first account is February 3, 1988, one month off Duggar’s actual birthday of March 3, 1988. The birthday listed for the second account is March 2, 1988.

    The two accounts overlap by a period of a few months. When he launched the second account, Duggar paid an initial fee of $250 that appears to have gone toward the purchase of an “affair guarantee”:

    Customers who buy 1,000 credits for $250 receive a money-back “affair guarantee,” if they don’t have an affair within three months.
    …
    The second account, which was registered in July of 2014, was paid on a monthly basis until May of 2015. We’ve reached out to TLC, the Family Research Council, and a spokesman for the Duggar family for comment and will update if we hear back.

    Wonder if the wife is gonna continue to stick around for more of it?

  71. 71.

    beltane

    Put me in the camp of people who can’t stand Norah Jones’ s voice. Extremely limited range IMO.

  72. 72.

    Botsplainer

    @Karen in GA:

    I hate Frankie Valli with a fire and passion of such intensity that it would rival the flames in the deepest pits of hell.

    People would talk about that stupid musical/movie, and all I could say was “why”.

  74. 74.

    beltane

    @Botsplainer: As a good Christian wife, she will undoubtedly blame herself for failing to be a sufficiently submissive spouse. Maybe she once asked him to put the toilet seat down or something. Such disrespect from a wife can drive even the most godly men into Satan’s clutches.

  76. 76.

    dedc79

    Tweedy is the wrong guy to pick on. His singing voice isn’t good, but it’s passable. He can carry a tune.

    The red hot chili peppers on the other hand. That guy cannot hit his notes. He masks it in their studio stuff, but listen to a live recording and you can instantly tell he’s tone deaf.

  79. 79.

    Germy Shoemangler

    A few weeks ago boomer rock journalists were swooning over the 50th anniversary of Dylan going ELECTRIC! at the Newport Folk Festival. To read their accounts, you’d think it was a radical act.

    Here is Sister Rosetta Tharpe, one year earlier in 1964, if you want something radical:

    youtube.com/watch?v=SR2gR6SZC2M

    EDIT:
    from the youtube comments:
    Screw Elvis Presley.. this woman created rock n’ roll. The Queen. African American, queer, and a woman. You guys are wondering how she slipped through the cracks? Why no one knows her name? Well there ya go.

  80. 80.

    Karen in GA

    @dedc79:

    The red hot chili peppers on the other hand. That guy cannot hit his notes. He masks it in their studio stuff, but listen to a live recording and you can instantly tell he’s tone deaf.

    He reminds me of guys who sing along with the radio by closing their eyes, putting together that weird combination of breathy and nasal, and getting all heartfelt, thinking the entire time that they’re doing it right.

  82. 82.

    kc

    Is it just me or does Adam Levine have a godawful voice? His version of that Lennon Christmas song is the absolute worst. I cannot believe how bad his singing is.

  85. 85.

    Botsplainer

    @Karen in GA:

    If you really want sad, listen to a Jimmy Buffett concert on Radio Margaritaville while sober. Its one thing to be there live and drunk (true Parrotheads know every word by heart), but its another to hear the mangling.

  87. 87.

    Howard Beale IV

    Grrr…..you all talkin’ music and I’m stuck getting needles injected into my ear loaded with steroids compounded with roaring-ass tinnitus to get my hearing back…..

    And to make it worse I’m a classical fan.

  88. 88.

    kc

    There’s bad as in “I can’t stand his/her voice” and then there’s bad as in “can’t hit a note.”

  89. 89.

    PurpleGirl

    @Omnes Omnibus: Right about telling a good voice. I knew a true Wagnerian soprano. Huge, incredible voice but not a pretty voice. Her true range was rather narrow. Wagner and few other operas. Even her cat hide when she practiced. One thing she could do — sub for a tenor in the church choir.

  90. 90.

    Karen in GA

    @Botsplainer: Whenever I hear Jimmy Buffett, I can’t help but picture cruise ship and resort entertainers looking at Buffett’s career and fortune and thinking, “How the fuck did he manage that?“

  92. 92.

    Karen in GA

    O/T, a friend of mine is, at this very moment, having dinner in the same Maine restaurant as Chief Justice John Roberts. He’s the one in the pink shirt. The preppy fuck.

    ETA: She posted the pic on FB. I commented, “Ask him if incorporating your uterus would give you any protection from government regulation.”

  98. 98.

    beltane

    @Karen in GA: Up until his death, Chief Justice Rehnquist used to spend his summers on a nearby lake. As awful as he was on the bench, he was actually quite pleasant in person.

  100. 100.

    Omnes Omnibus

    I think there is a greater tolerance for lesser voices in genres where self-penned songs are seen as important. Where, pace Jagger/Richards, it’s the song not the singer.

  101. 101.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    Trump’s townhall is fascinating, same as his press conference, he is spouting words a million but saying nothing. He just keeps saying he will make the country great but never once says how he will do it. There is nothing, not a single thing, and yet people are eating this shit up.

  102. 102.

    MomSense

    Suzanne Santo of honeyhoney has a fantastic voice. Taylor Swift on the other hand makes me want to cry. It’s so awful.

  103. 103.

    Germy Shoemangler

    Gene Vincent was pretty underrated as a vocalist. He did ballads beautifully. And Roy Orbison was operatic and soulful. I always liked John Lennon when George Martin double-tracked his vocals and put him close to the mic. Lennon’s later, solo stuff, when he tried to project his voice, I didn’t care for so much.

    I liked Paul Simon as a vocalist but not Garfunkle. I’ve always found Madonna’s voice to be unpleasant and small (listen to her version of “Santa Baby” compared to Eartha Kitt’s).

  104. 104.

    Botsplainer

    @Karen in GA:

    The guy lucked out by carving a niche act that could play well with both country and rock audiences. Stuff was fun, he always loved live performances, had a good business head and he created his own label (getting rid of the parasites) at the opportune time in a career most marked by a devoted cult following.

    I know I’ve been to over 20 Jimmy Buffett concerts, some of which I actually remember, mostly with the local Parrothead club. It is always a helluva party.

  106. 106.

    Germy Shoemangler

    I always liked the lady vocalist for the Squirrel Nut Zippers.

    I think nowadays she performs at weddings, according to her website.

  108. 108.

    jon

    If you have a voice like Tom Waits, you damn well better be talented enough to come up with interesting words. If you sound like Tom Jones, you can make “Thunderball” seem like something important. And someone like Bruce Springsteen? Somewhere in the middle.

    If I was to have some sort of singing genie offer me any voice of any singer, I’d go with Tim Booth. I’ll keep my own dance moves, however, thankyouverrymuch.

  111. 111.

    beltane

    @MomSense: Taylor Swift’s songs all sound the same to me, whiny, middle school angst that doesn’t even have enough pop sensibility to create the earworm effect.

  112. 112.

    kc

    @MomSense:

    I’ve been told by actual professional musicians that Taylor Swift is off-key a lot, not that I can tell. It sounds to me like she’s hitting the right notes . . . I just can’t stand the simpery quality of her voice (or lyrics).

  113. 113.

    Emma

    @trollhattan: That’s what I meant, I think. I wish to God I could have seen her live, because with her, it has nothing to do with the voice. It’s what it carries.

  114. 114.

    ThresherK

    @dedc79: When you say “he can’t hit notes” do you mean try to sing out of his range, or just doesn’t land accurately on a note he can reach?

    (Now I wish I had a better music vocabulary.)

  115. 115.

    Germy Shoemangler

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    He just keeps saying he will make the country great but never once says how he will do it.

    The old joke about democrats actually works nowadays better with republicans:

    An elderly woman, three times widowed, says she is a virgin. She explains that her first husband was wounded in the war, and was unable to perform the sex act. Her second husband, while a good provider, preferred the company of men. And the third husband? A republican… He would just sit on the edge of the bed and tell her how good it would be.

  117. 117.

    MikeJake

    @Roger Moore: If you listen to enough metal, you develop an ear for what “good” vocals sound like. I personally like harsh vocals.

    All genres have their standards. If opera were invented tomorrow, we’d probably think the vocal style was ridiculous.

  118. 118.

    Karen in GA

    @Botsplainer: I always thought the main difference between him and another resort entertainer was his business savvy.

    Not a criticism, actually. I’ve always heard his shows are fun. There are worse things in the world than that.

  121. 121.

    different-church-lady

    Friend has a one-liner that’s something like, “Bob Dylan and Lou Reed once had a contest to see who could sing the least notes.”

  122. 122.

    Karen in GA

    @kc: She was a disaster singing with Stevie Nicks at the Grammys a couple of years back.

    I’ve also heard that she’s just the pretty face in front of a huge marketing machine. Haven’t followed her closely enough to know whether it’s true, though.

  124. 124.

    different-church-lady

    @MikeJake:

    If you listen to enough metal, you develop an ear for what “good” vocals sound like.

    And if you drink enough alcohol you develop cirrhosis.

  125. 125.

    Gimlet

    Them wacky Christians

    On Monday night, Lincoln County Constable, Delbert Mitchell said he saw a truck parked outside of Pilot Baptist Church in the county so he went into the cemetery to investigate.

    “I went back and hollered for him to step back in the light and he told me to step back to the dark. That’s when I went and got my flashlight. He started hollering out [Bible] verses at me,” Constable Mitchell said. “He told me he was trying to dig his dad up, so his dad could go to Heaven.”

    May’s father died nearly four decades ago.

    While behind bars in Lincoln County, May told LEX 18’s Josh Breslow that he was trying to dig up his father and said a Bible verse led him to do it.

  128. 128.

    Germy Shoemangler

    @different-church-lady:

    And if you drink enough alcohol you develop cirrhosis.

    “cirrhosis are red,
    so violets are blue
    so sugar is sweet
    so so are you”

    – Chico Marx

    I don’t remember which Marx brothers movie this is from.

  135. 135.

    different-church-lady

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    Elvis Costello is not an objectively good singer.

    Perfect example of someone with a limited instrument making up for it with knowledge of how and what to sing. (See his unreleased version of “My Funny Valentine” from his early years, or “Broken” from Mighty Like A Rose.)

  136. 136.

    Gimlet

    OT

    FAIRFAX, Va. (AP) — A former police officer charged with murder for shooting and killing a man during a domestic disturbance call collapsed Wednesday in a northern Virginia courtroom after being denied bail in his initial court appearance.

    Adam Torres, 32, of Culpeper, fainted toward the end of a 20-minute hearing as lawyers discussed a possible December trial date.

    Torres killed John Geer, 46, of Springfield, in August 2013 after a report of a domestic dispute. Witnesses, including other officers, said Geer was unarmed and had his hands up when he was shot. Torres told investigators he thought Geer might have a weapon hidden in his waist, and that he was concerned Geer might reach for a gun that he had previously set down at his feet.

  137. 137.

    jl

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    ” Trump’s townhall is fascinating, same as his press conference, he is spouting words a million ”

    Entitled, white, and not a good voice (I gather) so fits in this thread.

  139. 139.

    Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA

    Dammit, keep forgetting to update the nym.

    You know who I wish I could like? Crosby Stills & Nash. I love Stephen Stills’ voice, but Graham Nash sounds shrill, and like he’s just about to go off-key.

  140. 140.

    different-church-lady

    @Germy Shoemangler: Horse Feathers. (Didn’t even have to look it up). The one in college. Scene ends with the book throwing fight, where Groucho gets clonked in the head, I think unexpectedly in the middle of a line, because he ad-libs “They got me!” and falls over, and you can hear the crew laughing.

  141. 141.

    ThresherK

    @Karen in GA: I am the last person to defend her. However, on that occaision, she had no monitor; Swift literally couldn’t hear her own voice.

    Not the first snag at an awards show music performance.

    – – –

    @Karen in GA: Clive James on Madonna:

    “She sang better than she danced, and she danced better than she looked, and she looked better than she could act – and she could only just (barely) sing.”

  143. 143.

    different-church-lady

    @different-church-lady: Sinatra story on the same theme. A few years ago a local radio show played one of his very late ballad recordings without announcing who it was. Right away you could tell it was Sinatra, but my first thought was, “Oh, what a tragedy hearing that magnificent instrument ruined.”

    Two minutes later I was thinking, “That was one of the most amazing vocal performances I’ve ever heard.” Even when he no longer had a voice he could still sing.

  144. 144.

    polyorchnid octopunch

    To counteract the thesis, I give you Kanye West covering Bohemian Rhapsody.

    I gotta call bullshit on this one, there’s tons of both great and terrible singers out there no matter where you look.

    I’ve played music professionally since the late eighties. Sticking with the technically awesome people is always a mistake. I’ve heard incredible singers who left audiences dead on a routine and ongoing basis and people with narrow ranges, wavery pitch, and rough timbre who could bring a crowd to their feet every time.

    Technical skill is good, and even important, but it’s far from the whole ball of wax on this issue.

  145. 145.

    different-church-lady

    @ThresherK: I’m not a huge fan of Madonna, but it is interesting to listen to her early stuff when she had more of a weak little-girl voice and compare it to how she slowly got a more powerful later in her career.

  146. 146.

    Sad_Dem

    Count me in the camp that favors distinct voices over autotune crap. Billie Holiday and Sade–lacking the pipes to sing loud. Lous Armstrong–raspy. Celia Cruz–raspy, with a thick Cuban accent. Like them, Dylan and Young have something to offer in the soul department.

  147. 147.

    Howard Beale IV

    @Germy Shoemangler: Yes, but it was very short, and I have a past history of Meniere’s syndrome (no vertigo the last go-round, this one has been quite the opposite). And this event the current hearing loss has been even more pronounced than the last attack.

    At least unlike the last attack, intratympanic dexamethasone injection wasn’t considered a treatment option (it is now,) and even that treatment is sorta a roll of the dice.

    The last time I got a good chunk of my low-to-mid-band back (the tinnitus, unfortunately, is lifetime, but I’ve managed that without too much problem.) We’re also doing the usual diurectic course at the same time.

    I’m hitting all cylinders here. There are fewer things I enjoy more than listening to my music, and taking that away from me will be pretty fucking devastating. I moved up here to MN back in 2008 for a good job opportunity and it’s been great-but music is about the only thing that keeps me grounded.

    I lose that-I don’t know what will happen.

  148. 148.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    Trump’s townhall

    Interesting that “townhall” and “downfall” are only two consonants apart. Because I sure read “downfall” when I first saw that!

  149. 149.

    different-church-lady

    I once worked with a sound engineer who said he hated Ella Fitzgerald: “How long can you listen to someone strike a pure silver bell?” is how he put it.

    I’m not sure he was wired correctly.

  151. 151.

    different-church-lady

    BTW, I want to thank Doug and the rest of you for helping me get my mind off the lousy day I had a work.

  156. 156.

    Tree With Water

    @Germy Shoemangler: Lennon once said that McCartney was uncharacteristically modest about his bass playing. The same can be said about Lennon and his under appreciation of his singing voice, which is why he was so enamored of double tracking.

  158. 158.

    wasabi gasp

    Nina Simone

    She has a great unique quality, but half an album is as much as I can do.

  162. 162.

    Botsplainer

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    Trump is just playing the game as it always has worked – go to the country club bar in a nice suit, say a lot of words about nothing, brashly brag to the mooks on how successful this venture will be, feel the dollars rain upon you in buckets, because white people with a little money are stupid as fuck. When everything goes tits up, slap your biggest investors on the back, guffaw “no hard feelings, it’s just business and losses are to be expected”, then move on to the next country club.

    Wash, rinse, repeat.

  165. 165.

    ThresherK

    @different-church-lady: I’m less of a fan than you are. Too many meh recordings.

    “Evita” was a very good match of persona and role, right down to Madonna copping “Another Suitcase in Another Hall” for (the character) Evita from unnamed Peron’s mistress. My wife joked that she was surprised Madonna didn’t wedge herself into every song on the soundtrack.

    Then again, part of me is just glad she’s kept going and seems to not be destined to die a “celebrity death” at too young an age. And I remember how popular assembled girl groups were in much of the 80s, and there’s something to be said for Madonna managing their own career in the music business for so long.

  168. 168.

    different-church-lady

    @Botsplainer:

    …because white people with a little money are stupid as fuck…

    Anyone — ANYONE — who gives money to a man who is a self-proclaimed ten billionaire deserves what they lose.

  170. 170.

    different-church-lady

    @DougJ:

    I always hope music posts are more fun than political ones.

    Well, we’re getting close to .4 TBu (200 comments), so one of the usual suspects should be along soon to ruin that for everyone.

  171. 171.

    NobodySpecial

    Neil Young used to play guitar in a band with a black guy who couldn’t sing. He did okay, from what I hear.

  172. 172.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Baud: Remember when presenting evidence that the keys are primacy and recency. The jury will remember best the first and last things. If you are going to end with naked mopping, you gotta start with the kittens.

  174. 174.

    jamus4

    Obligatory deadhead comment: there’s a quote attributed to Robert Hunter that Jerry Garcia could _not_ sing better than anyone else. I love idiosyncratic vocals if they underline a distinct viewpoint.

    I would say that in the jam band universe, the best vocalist of all time is/was Dave Matthews. That doesn’t stop the millennial hate, but he truly has the range of a mockingbird, and breathtaking sincerity in his delivery.

    I’d like to see a separate thread on gender disparities – for some sick/sexist/lizardbrain reason, I tend to cut male vocalists more slack on style, and expect Aretha Franklin or Annie Lennox for female vocals. Sorry – not proud of this – but I think it’s pretty widespread.

  176. 176.

    different-church-lady

    @Baud: No no no, not bigfooting or anything like that. I meant someone will come in to this thread and spray the place down with “You’re all idiots, let me explain to you what music is…”

  178. 178.

    JMG

    Man, it’s not all the Vienna Boys Choir when it comes to vocals. The biggest selling, most influential white guy artists in EVERY music genre lack what, to be kind, we could call classically intoned voices. Hank Williams, Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, Mick Jagger, etc., etc. Maybe George Jones meets your fraudulently stringent criteria, but probably not.
    All the above singers moved millions and rightly so. Lighten the fuck up.

  179. 179.

    different-church-lady

    @Tree With Water:

    They liberally sprinkled their pre-fab stage shows with contemporaneous covers of the bird singer’s* hits, and even included a few on their first albums.

    Heck, they’d sing “Boys” without changing gender in the chorus.

  180. 180.

    Soul On Ice

    I can’t believe this hasn’t been said yet….Roger Daltrey is the most wretched singer of all the classic rock bands. If he ever hit a right note, it was purely by accident

  183. 183.

    NotMax

    Melanie
    Yoko Ono
    Britney Spears
    Cyndi Lauper

    And, for bad on purpose, the stylings of Jonathan and Darlene Edwards (in real life an accomplished musician and singer, Paul Weston & Jo Stafford). For those with a musical bent, one can ken how accomplished a singer she really was by how consistently and precisely she manages to stay off key.

  184. 184.

    PurpleGirl

    @DougJ: Music posts are definitely more fun that political ones. I don’t know much music but I read these posts because I learn a lot from them.

  185. 185.

    MomSense

    @Baud:

    Ha! Would you like your tire rims and anthrax with or without tomato sauce?

    If I dropped that on my co-workers, I can imagine the looks I would get.

  186. 186.

    Bobby Thomson

    Yet another holier-than-thou music post from someone without a recording contract.

    They all sing well enough, dude.

    ETA: Jesus Fucking Christ on a stick – Hall & Fucking Oates are your example of white men who can sing? You know about as much about music as Donald Trump knows about public policy.

  189. 189.

    wasabi gasp

    @jamus4: I’m the opposite. I am much more receptive to a female voice of all qualities. Although I’ve tried to understand why, it’s still mostly a mystery to me. I think part of the reason may be the arrogance and posturing that comes with a lot of male vocals.

  194. 194.

    different-church-lady

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Hall & Fucking Oates are your example of white men who can sing?

    I want you to attempt to sing just the first line of “I Can’t Go For That”. Let us know how it goes.

  196. 196.

    Vtr

    That’s enough attention being paid to mediocre musicians. Just go listen to the Fratellis, ok?

  197. 197.

    NotMax

    The complete list of accomplished female vocalists who inarguably can sing, yet whose voices immediately make me reach for the earplugs:

    Bernadette Peters.

  198. 198.

    different-church-lady

    I don’t know where he fits into all of this, but Donald Fagan is simply NOT a good singer at all. And yet he is perfect for those Steely Dan hit recordings.

    You ever try to sing a Steely Dan song? I guarantee that (a) it’s a hell of a lot harder than you thought and (b) you can’t hit any of the notes any better than Fagan could manage.

    In the late 80s/early 90s Bernstein did a whole record of West Side Story using opera singers. And it was kind of lame. Think about that: one of the all time great pieces of music + the best voices in the world at the time can still = lame.

  199. 199.

    summer

    @Germy Shoemangler: She does do weddings and other events locally. I waited tables with her before they became famous; the first time I heard her sing took my breath away.

    P.S. Kurt Cobain has a GREAT voice! Excellent pitch!

  200. 200.

    Howard Beale IV

    I’ll see all your female singers are raise you an Annie Haslam from Renaissance.

  202. 202.

    cokane

    cant really agree, it’s more of a male privilege. Hip hop is filled with stars with no singing ability and who often sing even in their hit songs. Like say Kanye, whose music I like, he has no singing talent.

  203. 203.

    summer

    I@summer: Ok, just listened again. I love Kurt Cobain. But I amend to “decent.” Just a very melodic songwriter, but he’s no Katherine Whalen.

  208. 208.

    Mnemosyne (tablet)

    @different-church-lady:

    I was debating having that be our official definition of a “good” singer — one who can sing in more than one genre (with an agreement that rock, pop and country all fall into the “popular music” genre).

    I would nominate Queen Latifah — she can sing pop, Broadway, and standards.

  211. 211.

    Heliopause

    Can you imagine a black person or a woman sounding as awful on vocals as the guy from Wilco or the guy from Death Cab For Cutie and still getting played on the radio?

    You mean aside from 85% of the old blues records that get played on my local college radio station? Or Louie Armstrong? Or any rap, which isn’t even bad singing to some ears?

    Music is one of the very few areas that our society has actually allowed African-Americans to excel. Old blues, rap, bebop, Monk, and lots of other stuff that doesn’t sound like real music to Ward and June Cleaver is broadly popular. Hell, even Billie Holiday had kind of a fucked up (yet compelling) voice to my ear.

    Please focus on the myriad real injustices and not made-up ones.

  212. 212.

    gogol's wife

    @DougJ:

    Yes, I’m sorry I missed this one.

    I’d put Elvis Costello and Janis Joplin together as people who don’t have “beautiful instruments” but who know exactly how to use them musically.

    I’ve been listening to a double CD of Elvis Presley gospel music. Some of the songs are just cringe-inducing — like “It is no secret what God can do” — it’s like he had some elocution teacher who told him to pronounce the words in the most affected, prim, cloying way. But then when he’s singing sincerely, as on “Amazing Grace” and “Bridge Over Troubled Water” — he’s the greatest singer in the world. I don’t know another singer who can make me throw up and make me cry with artistic rapture, depending on the recording.

  213. 213.

    CopRock

    Gwen Stefani, Paula Abdul, Ke$ha, Jennifer Lopez and Britney Spears are/ were some of the biggest stars in pop, but there’s a better singer at every high school in the country.

  214. 214.

    Sad_Dem

    Speaking of musical injustice, there’s also the cuteness factor. I can’t stand Jim Morrison for singing flat, but he sure has fans, as did Milli Vanilli. And there’s a long line of cute female singers of little talent–Kathie Lee Gifford, Madonna….

  215. 215.

    NotMax

    @gogol’s wife

    Also too, Joe Cocker.

    Hearing Presley sing anything has forever given me the urge to flee like the monster in the Bugs Bunny toon when he sees the people in the audience. YMM (and apparently does) V.

  216. 216.

    Suzanne

    Johnny Cash, Tom Waits, Tom Petty, Kurt Cobain, Elliott Smith, also too.
    And yet I love them all.

    And many people who apparently have good voices, like Celine Dion, make me want to sit on forks.

  218. 218.

    moderateindy

    @jamus4:Agreed that Garcia did not have much of a voice, but he had the ability to convey many different levels of emotion, or soul with it. Isn’t that what singing is all about?

  219. 219.

    redshirt

    Didn’t read any of the thread but just NEEDED to add Blink-182 to this list. And all those kind of bands. TERRIBLE singing. The music might be cool at times, maybe, but damn those vocals.

  220. 220.

    redshirt

    @Suzanne: Tom Waits is gravelly as rock, yet that’s his “hook”, right? So should it count against him? Also being an amazing musician who can play a bazillion instruments.

  228. 228.

    Bill Murray

    How can we have a thread about bad singing and no one (well except perhaps some one who posted a youtube link and did not mention the song) mentioned The Shaggs (whom I like despite their lack of technical ability)

    Philosophy of the World youtube.com/watch?v=hxPsXPCR5MU

    Also, many Delta and Electric Blues singers were not good singers but had great songs

  230. 230.

    redshirt

    Objectively, David Lowery of Camper Van Beethoven; Cracker fame. Terrible voice that takes a getting used to. But once you do, it’s quite groovy.

  236. 236.

    redshirt

    Another shameful omission on the white guys who really can’t sing list:

    Michael Stipe of R.E.M. fame. Bad singer. Fun lyricist.

  239. 239.

    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?

    I don’t know…though she started as a rapper Queen Latifah has done some singing, and her voice, IMO, is maybe OK but certainly not great. I could probably think of other examples but I’m too lazy.

  241. 241.

    Paul in KY

    @Woodrow/asim: I’m white & I’m very meh on Wilco (have seen them twice). saw Tweedy & thought set was generally better than the Wilco stuff I’ve seen.

  243. 243.

    James

    @Trooptrap Tripetrope:

    I completely agree about Tom Waits being fantastic.

    Aside from that, this entire conversation is silly. Listening to Tom Waits is entirely different from listening to Taylor Swift or Aretha Franklin. Neither is better or worse, just different experiences.

  244. 244.

    nastybrutishntall

    There is a certain vulnerability and bravery that comes out of transcending the limits of your instrument. And laziness in songwriting and lack of depth can come from relying on technique and perfect pipes. Thank you, punk rock.

  246. 246.

    Paul in KY

    Can’t believe no one mentioned David Byrne. Singer I saw recently who’s quirky like him fronts a band called Broncho. Google them.

  247. 247.

    Jebediah, RBG

    @Paul in KY:

    Wish he’d re-form Uncle Tupelo.

    You think he and Jay Farrar could be in a band together again? I doubt it, but I sure would love to see it happen.

  250. 250.

    LeonS

    I’m late to the party but 2 examples hit me today: Joe Strummer & The Grateful Dead. One of them I even like, but damn, those vocals…

    …OK now that I mention it pretty much all punk… except Joey Ramone.

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