This post is sort of an offshoot of Tim’s post below on the kids who’ve been used as media funnels for wingnut talking points.
As a parent and aunt, I’ve always found it a delicate balance to explain my version of what’s happening in the world to kids when they ask me questions while refraining from outright indoctrination. It’s especially fraught in my family since, as a group, we’re about 80% hardcore wingnut, 15% moderate liberal and 5% hardcore lefties.
My daughter is 17 now and has a mind of her own, so she legitimately has her own points of view. But when she was more impressionable, I tried to be mindful of my role as the Ultimate Authority and not abuse that status.
I’m interested in if political stuff ever came up in your family when you were a child and also how you handled it as a parent or other authority figure, if applicable.
I thought about this quite a bit before my kid was old enough to start asking me tough questions because my own upbringing was politically eclectic (wingnut dad, hippie mom, Christian fundamentalist grandparents), so I knew how confusing it could be.
What say you?
trnc
I’m taking the same approach, but I sometimes wonder if I should change when I see some of our wingnut acquaintances going full tilt on their indoctrination.
MattF
As it happens, my dad was hard-core anti-racist. The only book he ever asked me to read was Gunnar Myrdahl’s ‘An American Dilemma.’
He was a radiologist, head of radiology in a group practice– and every other person that he hired in his department was AA– kind of a one-man affirmative action program. Every now and then my mom would complain to him– “Every person in your medical group is white, except for your department.” And it was true.
Belafon
For the most part, I always tried to present as much information as I could that they could understand. This sometimes involed some history and a lot of term explaining.
If it ever came down to something that had to be a choice, I generally explained my reasons for choosing.
JPL
When my sons were young, the news didn’t air until they were in bed. We lived in CT so the networks were out of NYC, which at the time aired some pretty violent stuff. I think a parent who allows an eight year to listen to talk radio, should be investigated for child abuse.
My younger son loved his President. Since it was Reagan, it was difficult for me not to interject but I tried. As my sons aged, we did talk about policy. Both are now liberal.
Linda Featheringill
I must admit that I introduced my child to lefties when I took her on a Pro Choice march when she was in her early teens. And protest marches are fun.
She especially liked the idea of adults fighting Authority.
And then she was hooked.
Some guy
No questions allowed until all 3 volumes of Capital are finished. There will be a quiz.
DanF
I’m taking a similar approach with mine, however they know exactly where I stand on the political spectrum. I will often preface with my rants with, “We have family members that you know and love who are Republicans, but …”
Steve in the ATL
I have explained to my kids why I am liberal and what the Republican party stands for and does. I also told them not to come home if they become Republicans. Was that bad?
benw
@Some guy: Will it be multiple choice?
@Steve in the ATL: Only in that you just about guaranteed they’ll become Republicans at some point during their rebellious phase. Just to piss you off. :)
Rachel
I was very politically active when my kids were growing up. My activism stemmed from outrage at the Bush Administration’s patent disregard for the American principles stated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. I did my best to educate my kids about those principles and point out why I felt so strongly about what was happening to our country. They’re all grown up now, all smart, independent thinkers. Thank God none of them are Republicans, otherwise I would feel like an utter failure.
OzarkHillbilly
My conservative*** mother had a saying: “If they’re old enough to ask the question, they’re old enough to hear the answer.” w/ the caveat that you never gave more information than they were capable of absorbing at their age. That extended to politics as well and she was always very careful to note the difference between opinion and fact, as in “There is a problem with poverty in America. It is my opinion that the best way to solve the problem is….”
I tried to do the same. Despite that I still managed to indoctrinate both my sons with hard core socialistic peace loving ideals and they think all people have equal rights regardless of color, sexual preference, etc.
*** she volunteered at Birthrite, Catholic anti abortion “counseling service”. She told me that on more than a few occasions she told women that their best and indeed only choice in their present situation was in fact, an abortion.
NobodySpecial
My parents didn’t talk politics; like a lot of poor people, they had no time for that nonsense.
My first political action, I was 8. I made a sign for John B. Anderson, because my dad used to mow his lawn and one time he cleaned out his garage and gave my dad toys I would never have seen on an itinerant laborer’s wages. Not knowing he had zero chance to win the election, I cried in class when he lost. I identified as a Republican (like him) until I finally moved to Texas not long after graduation and got to see crazy up close. By the time Bush became governor, I was headed out of the state and Democrat through and through.
redshirt
I was a Reagan Youth brainwashed by my conservative father but saw the light with the rise of Newt and the rest of the wingnut brigades.
College turned me into a super hippy.
Corner Stone
I may be reading this approach wrong but does this mean you gave an even handed perspective on both sides of an issue, or that you gave a viewpoint and didn’t say that no disagreement was possible?
Because I do not take it easy on the rwnj take on current issues when discussing with my son. If some want to call it indoctrination then I am fine with that. Because when he goes to visit my ex’s family he certainly gets the most hateful BS spewed around him non-stop. And I then get to tell him the actual truth of the matter, and we then discuss from there.
trollhattan
My kid watched Colbert the last few years so is very up on political shenanigans, for whatever that’s worth. She even understood the parody aspect of his character–pretty good for a grade school kid.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
We didn’t talk about politics when I was a kid. We didn’t really talk much about most things. We were quiet at the dinner table, watching the evening news (NBC) on a tiny B&W TV. Dad liked to play classical music on his stereo, but he also had some Spike Jones records he would play occasionally. We’d watch the Monkees and Rocky & Bullwinkle on Saturdays and try to figure out why it was as funny as it was.
It seemed to me that I picked up politics by osmosis. I figured my parents were Republicans, but the topic never came up.
I spent my time absorbed in things like National Geographic articles on the space program.
I was on a debate team in a middle-school class in ’72 and got assigned to be a McGovern advocate. It was enlightening, but didn’t stay with me. My freshman year of HS my best friend was a guy who was a hard-core Bircher, but I couldn’t make sense of it and thought he was a (just a) little strange.
My political evolution came slowly.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there are lots of others in the same boat. If you never are exposed to different political points of view except as cartoon pictures, then you’ll just pick up the politics of those around you.
Cheers,
Scott.
schrodinger's cat
My parents, always encouraged me to think for myself. My father and I would debate politics and religion, among other things. I had to back up my assertions with facts. Now I am to their left on both these issues.
Corner Stone
My mom came from a flat crazy ass deep down dirt poor family and she never talked politics when I was a child. Now when we talk about it she’s mostly left of center toward lefty on most issues. She’s very religious and hates the way the right wing has corrupted the views of so many proclaimed Christians. She’s left a bible study on more than one occasion during the GWB era.
My dad worked for the railroad and was always solid union. He told me many times that until I had something of my own to protect I should vote D because that’s what put food on the table.
He’s still solid D and center left on most issues. I’m sad to discuss some aspects of immigration with him because living in AZ these last few years have started to poison his brain on that topic.
Bobby Thomson
Indoctrinate away. If you’re teaching skepticism and critical thinking it won’t matter.
Cermet
Never lie in answering questions – even if the truth appears dangerous. Simple. Also, children handle complex answers better than you might suspect.
Bobby Thomson
@Steve in the ATL: not at all. Children should be cautioned against sociopathic behavior. Shaking my head at the squishes.
feebog
I was not particularly active in politics while my sons were growing up. Too busy working, although I always voted Democratic. My sons politics are pretty weird, the younger is pretty liberal, the older, who lives in a pretty rural area in NW Washington state has gotten caught up in some pretty right wing crap. My oldest and his second wife have 5 kids between them; one each from their first marriage, and three more from their marriage. The two oldest, now in their 20s, have been exposed to enough outside influence that they now are quite liberal. The younger ones still parrot whatever claptrap my son is dishing out. I have high hopes that I can eventually convert all five of them to progressives, I’m afraid my son is a lost cause at this point.
Tim C.
It’s always a fine line I think. Everyone raises their children to follow the values they demonstrate, and education vs. indoctrination is often in the eye of the beholder. However, there are two basic rules to follow.
First, teaching that they will have to interact and respect many many people throughout their lives who don’t hold the same view as they do. Being able to see other people as wrong and not as monsters is something people forget sadly.
Second, children and teenagers should not be used as political props. Doing so is as old as politics, but overtly using children to deliver scripted political messages is a ‘bad thing’, no matter who is doing it.
Big ole hound
My kids, boys raised in the 70s and 80s, always seemed much more opinionated than I was. It seemed they had very far ranging seminars in school but knew my anti-war stance and voiced the same “peace” message. In New England the general opinion seemed to be “honor the vets but no more war”. As a bartender in those days, that seemed to be normal.
crshark
I took my daughter on her first protest march when she was two months old. It was a march for worker’s rights to coincide with Cesar Chavez’s birthday. Took her to several anti-war marches and rallies after that. She loved banging on her tambourine! Did my best to instill feminist values to her. She did me right proud when her first grade class had a presidential vote in 2008 and she voted for Obama. I think the vote of all the first graders was 75-1 for Obama.
Tokyokie
I grew up with a batshit crazy wingnut mom in a batshit crazy wingnut town, but once I got out of town, I fully realized how unconnected to reality they were. But a big help for me was the mother of one of my best friends. Marianne, as a European-born Jew, was an outsider in every sense, but as a Holocaust survivor, she had long before stopped giving a crap what Goyim thought of her. And she dealt with right-wingers by hooting at them with laughter. She’s still an inspiration to me. God bless you, Marianne!
Corner Stone
I’m taking a much more holistic approach to “politics” with my son than I came up through. For example, we have had many discussions regarding privilege, something I had discussions on with friends while growing up but never once mentioned by my parents.
ETA, growing up “politics” with my parents always meant economic outcomes. Who’s going to reach into my pocket and try to take the couch cushion change I have left? That kind of thing.
Jeff
My parents were quite open to exposing me to to their social/political/moral values and beliefs (my father ran a hunger relief nonprofit and my mother was heavily involved in our neighborhood association, so hearing about those things and related issues was just a part of life) – but they deliberately didn’t tell me anything about their religious beliefs until I was in middle school, for reasons of avoiding indoctrination.
shell
The last post was conservatives loooving the under-18 crowd mouthing wingnut talking points.
But HATE it from anyone else.
Surprised theyre not bitching about that little girl who ran out from the crowd over to Pope Francis and claiming shes just a mouthpiece of her parents or brain washed.
JPL
@shell: They will.
Betty Cracker
@Corner Stone: I’ve never tried to be Ma Broder. I tell my kid what I think and the reasons behind it, but I do try to be careful about not giving opinion as fact, and I try not to demonize those who disagree. If something is stupid or evil, I say so.
Jeffro
I grew up (teen years = Reagan years) in a house with a pretty religious-right mom from a poor, country background and a pretty pro-business, authoritarian-leaning, pro-Nixon dad. I was pretty much of a swing voter (Bush Sr in 1988; Clinton in 1992 & 1996) until the Clinton impeachment and 2000 election. Never looked back. Oddly enough, my brother went the other direction at the same time and has been growing steadily more knee-jerk conservative (or “libertarian”, if you ask him) as have many of my peers, it seems.
As a dad of two, I have tried to keep from openly preaching at my kids and instead have tried to talk with them about issues as they come up. (I think someone up above mentioned “if they’re old enough to ask the question, they’re old enough to hear the answer”. True.) But in their short lives, my kids have seen the tail end of the disastrous W presidency, followed by the GOP’s spiraling descent into madness during Obama’s terms. It has been harder to keep from editorializing. Lately, especially in regards to people like Ted Cruz or Ben Carson, or in regards to issues like our crazy wealth inequality or the attacks on Planned Parenthood, both me & my wife have decided that a little editorializing never hurt anyone.
Perhaps the kids have already been absorbing a little more editorializing than I thought…every time we pass a car with a Tea Party sticker or license plate, one of my kids will usually pipe up and go, “Lemme guess: driver’s an old white guy?” lol
Mark
My mothers side of the family were 100% wingnut republican. Card carrying John Birchers. The things I hear today sound exactly like they did 50+ years ago.
the Conster
@Steve in the ATL:
I did the exact same thing. My two daughters grew up hearing me yelling at Reagan on TV from my kitchen, and I drove around with them in the back seat explaining what was wrong with conservatism, the media, and the selfishness that will bring us all to a bad place. I told them both I would forgive any bad behavior and welcome them home if they were gay or drug addicts or whatever, but not if they were either a religious fanatic or Republican. End of story. They didnt.
dlw32
I was brainwashed by my very conservative parents and that lasted right until I got to college. Not that my professors were liberal, but my classmates had a wide variety of experiences… it was the first non-WASP experiences…
With my kids I would freely talk to them about why I feel and believe what I do. I would try to present the rational side of the conservative argument and often remind them that there are good people on the other side. But I also would not hesitate to point out when people are lying.
EconWatcher
I am facing a somewhat similar dilemma on religion. Although raised in a Catholic family, I’ve been an agnostic since I was 11. However, I want my kids to come to their own considered judgments on this big life issue.
My son is too young to think about it much. But my daughter, aged 8, is very smart and perceptive and all over this issue. She has friends who are Christian. She has asked me many questions about God, heaven, etc.
I’ll usually say, some people believe this, and some people believe that. When she asks me what I think, I say I don’t know. I have to admit, it sounds kind of lame when I say it, and she doesn’t look too impressed.
My other difficulty is that I want her to be exposed to the Bible and Christian tradition, because it’s very much part of our culture. (You can’t read Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky without it!) But I don’t want any aggressive indoctrination. So where do you get education for a kid in Christian tradition, without a heavy hand?
This is not easy stuff. But luckily, both of my kids appear to be way smarter than me, so I think they’ll figure it all out, no matter how much I screw up.
smintheus
Odd story: My parents almost never had any direct involvement in politics to my knowledge, and rarely commented on politicians. But one Saturday when my sister and I were little, my dad invited us to join him in a ride. We drove to a remote water authority building at the Scituate Reservoir (in RI), where my dad went in the building for about half an hour without explanation. The governor’s car was the only other vehicle there. While my sister and I ran around in the driveway, the rather peevish chauffeur kept yelling at us “Don’t touch that car! That’s the governor’s car!” When we drove home my dad obviously had no intention of explaining what it was about, though it seemed connected to the election that fall.
Many years later I asked him what that meeting was about. He responded evasively and claimed he couldn’t remember any such meeting. Talk about playing your politics close to the vest.
Brachiator
My grandmother was the youngest of seven, and my mother was a younger child, so one of the odd things is that I did not know how much my family had actually participated in politics since many had retired from their most active roles by the time I came along. They didn’t much talk about it directly, and I still am learning how much many of them (including my mother) have accomplished. But general discussion and opinions were always encouraged.
When I was a kid, my mother would let me quietly hang around parties where the adults would have boisterous discussions, mainly liberal, but with a lot of variation, so I was exposed to a range of views.
A good chunk of my family are religious, but my mother never was. She took me to church once. The only thing I remember was that it was raining, I fell asleep during the service, and when we got home, she made hot dogs for me. It was a perfect Sunday.
the Conster
@EconWatcher:
Unitarians have a very light touch. My in laws took my kids to their services and Sunday school when they were little, and they picked up a lot of stuff that’s useful (about a lot of traditions), and I let them know that they were free to believe whatever they wanted.
Bill
My parents are typical boomers. They were war protesting hippies in the 60’s (some of the earliest pictures of me are being carried by my father in a backpack at protests), and became Wwall Street yuppies in the 80’s. That said, they always kept their left of center politics, (B. Clinton is probably their favorite president after JFK, and they are all in on H. Clinton). Political discussions were a central part of my childhood.
Sunday dinners – which always involved wearing a collared shirt to the table – almost always evolved in to discussions on the politics of the day. My mother, while herself strongly liberal, always played devils advocate in these conversations. Anyone who walked in and sat down, but didn’t know her, would’ve thought she was the most hard right Reaganite on earth.
This approach was really useful as it forced me to think about what I believed and why I believed it. It helped me hone my critical thinking and argument skills. I’m pretty sure it’s a large part of what pushed me to a career in the law.
I’ve tried to use the same approach with my kids to a certain extent. That said, I’ve always made it very clear where I stand on issues, and why. I am guilty of some indoctrination, and I don’t really think it’s a terrible thing. (I’ve long told my kids there’s only two things they can’t come home and tell me they are. A Republican or a Red Sox fan.) In the end they all seem to have become critical thinkers which, to bastardize Colbert, seems too have a liberal bias.
geg6
My parents were quite politically informed and active, so I was indoctrinated at a very early to age to be a libtard. My dad was very, very liberal, but didn’t really become that way until the Nixon administration. He was all in for women’s rights, civil rights (even though he’d be considered pretty racist by today’s standards — he had a black friend that came to our house, though only through the back door, and that was enough to paint him as a commie in our suburban hellhole), pot, abortion and birth control, unions (he was a steelworker, after all) and pretty much any liberal cause you can think of, even if he wasn’t a fan of the hippies. Mom was a more traditional centrist liberal with a lot of passion for civil rights. She was very, very Catholic and that informed her more conservative social values but also her views on economic and racial issues in a more positive way. I am very glad my parents taught us to be informed, to be able to discern our own view of the issues and to fight for what we believe. They had six of us, all DFHs who vote.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@smintheus: lol. :-) Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Matt McIrvin
My parents were liberals, and we usually lived in fairly conservative neighborhoods. In the 1970s and ’80s, western Fairfax County, VA was Republican territory.
When I was a little kid my one political opinion was that the President had to be a good guy because he was the President, so I didn’t understand why people were picking on Richard Nixon about something involving tapes. And then I decided I was a Republican and supported Gerald Ford in 1976, basically because he was the incumbent. My parents didn’t take any pains to set me straight; they just said that they thought Ford and Carter both had some good qualities and that it was probably going to be a close election.
I turned into a fire-breathing liberal by 1980 and drew political cartoons that my dad tacked up on his cubicle wall. A few years later, when “Family Ties” came on the air, my parents gave me some good-natured teasing about my similarity to flashback Alex P. Keaton as a Nixon-worshipping toddler.
catbirdman
I came from Republican parents, although my Dad was pretty open-minded — enough to have voted for Mondale instead of Reagan’s second term because he was, correctly, convinced that Ronnie’s brain was turning to mush (“BUT DON’T YOU EVER TELL ANYONE I DID THAT!”). Of course, now he’s in his mid-80s and so all I get from him is a steady stream of right-wing BS emails. But back in the day he was pretty cool for a Republican. I turned hard-left in my teens, when I got into birding and biology. Very few people who seriously study the planet and its ability to sustain natural communities can simultaneously be Republican.
Earlier this year my older boy, who’s 8, came back from a school field trip to the Nixon Library talking excitedly about the man’s greatness. This forced my hand and I had to start talking about how terrible Nixon was much earlier than I had ever expected. I pulled up the Wikipedia page and went through some of the lowlights, just to counterbalance the propaganda he had been fed at the Nixon Shrine. I tried to be somewhat even-handed, reminding him that all six of his grandparents are Republicans who we love and respect greatly, but also letting him know that, viewed objectively, Republican politicians and policies have been hugely damaging to the country and planet. I don’t think this one will turn out Republican, but I have my worries about his younger brother, just on temperament alone.
smintheus
@EconWatcher: It’s never too early to explain to kids the difference between belief and knowledge. My parents are atheists and never said much about Christianity, but I quickly figured out its tenets on my own.
maurinsky
My first political memory is my father yelling at Tricky Dick on TV. When I was very young, he told me that the Republicans were for the owners, and the Democrats were for the little guy, and that’s why he was a Democrat. He’s a union guy, and he loathed Ronald Reagan with the fire of a thousand suns. When we held an election at school in 1980, I was SHOCKED that Reagan won, because my parents hated him so much!
My mother didn’t talk about politics much, but she was also a die-hard Democrat, and loved gay people. Her two older sisters, both nuns, were active in the Civil Rights movement.
With my kids, I did try to be nuanced and explain why people thought that, for example, abortion was wrong, and why I disagreed with them. Their father’s family was completely Republican, although New England Republicans (only one of them voted for George W. Bush) for the most part, except for my former MIL who has gone to the dark side and a religious right winger. But I have actually successfully converted a couple of former Republicans (moderate ones, certainly) – one of my very good friends was an elected Republican in her town, and now she is a loud and proud liberal (she always was, really, but her parents were Republicans, so she became one, too).
My kids are pretty darn liberal and activist about it. Yesterday, my older daughter accompanied some women going to a Planned Parenthood that was being protested – on her way out, one of the protesters followed her (prob would have followed her home if she had gone there, she opted to not do that) and was telling her about the evils of abortion and how she shouldn’t support it, which scared her, but I doubt she will stop. She said she didn’t want to engage him but asked for how she might be able to address him. I told her to tell him she needs his kidney and he’d understand if she assumed he agreed that he shouldn’t be allowed to have bodily autonomy, since he doesn’t think women deserve that.
Jeffro
@EconWatcher:
I’ve been giving this some thought recently: my unchurched children don’t know enough Bible basics to get the more common references, even in secular literature and movies. (I thought my mom was going to keel over when my 10-year-old asked in passing, “Who is this Satan person?” lol)
I’m going to get them a book of very basic Bible stories to read, just for reference. Then they too can wonder exactly how we’re supposed to take talking burning bushes and all the rest seriously.
Nannette
I grew up in a union household (USWA) with two parents who were staunch Democrats. There was no question about how I would vote when I reached adulthood. And after watching firsthand the death of the US steel industry in the 70’s and 80’s I can say that my parents really had nothing to worry about.
Mack
My father was the first Mexican-American to move onto the street where I grew up. That made us outcasts. He supported Caesar Chavez. That made us outcasts. He successfully fought back an annexation and eventually ran for local office and won. But the biggest political fight I remember (and I made signs and knocked on doors about this) was Prop 13. I guess my dad was prescient on that, but it made us unpopular, if not outcasts. lol
As for my kids, they just naturally gleaned their political view from ours…liberal, democratic, but once in awhile they would ask questions, and I would answer without spin. I don’t lie to my kids, they know I enjoy a certain smoke-able herb and have known since grade school. I’ve always believed if you lie to your kids, you lose their trust. So far, so good.
jl
My extended family is about 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 hardcore wingnut, liberal and hard core doctrinaire lefty, so should be balance. But most of the liberals get tired of making every G-damn thing political and retire from the field early on. So there is still balance, but not sure what the effect of only hearing the hard cores go at all the time has on the youngin’s.
‘What about the children?’, I never thought about that. We liberals will always try to entice them out the room where the political death cage matches occur from now on.
I didn’t use ‘doctrinaire’ for the wingnuts because they seem to have no doctrine. Just Cleek’s law and whatever is best for them at the moment, or whatever they heard that sounds good from the media seems to be their guide.
Edit: I’ll dig up the wii gear and see if that is still working. That always got the kids out of the political death cage match room.
Jeffro
@Matt McIrvin:
I remember that it irritated the heck out of my dad when I told him I liked Carter better than Ford, because he “seemed nicer”. See, that is how you lock up the 7-year-old vote, folks…
redshirt
I actually wore a “Free Ollie” t-shirt to high school.
Kinda wish I still had it.
Jace
There was a theological underpinning to everything that my parents taught me. They are Christians and urged me to strive for Christians ideals. They were also Conservative, pretty set in their ways and eager to share with me why they believed what they did. The desire to be a good Christian eventually left me frustrated with the church and then eventually led me away from it toward what would probably be labeled as humanism. I share a core belief with my parents on how to treat others that is Golden Rule-informed. I appreciate my parents for their willingness to share their beliefs with me–that’s a big part of what parenting should be I think–even though we ended up on different sides of the political spectrum. I try to do the same with my kids. My wife an I tend to teach by pointing out ongoing and historical injustices which will probably turn our kids into rebellious teenagers who are Reason subscribing, Randian devotees.
TheMightyTrowel
I wasn’t raised at protests, but I was certainly raised by educated reasonably lefty parents. My mom, a practicing catholic, once memorably took me out to lunch to explain in clear and medical detail (she’s a doctor) how an abortion happens, why she got one and why the speaker the priest invited up the previous sunday was full of shit. My dad, a former DFH protester and secular jew, gave me a huge collection of feminist and af.am. literary classics which he would let me read then we’d discuss. I scandalised the nun who taught my (eastern north carolina) fifth grade class when I told her that The Autobiography of Malcolm X was my favourite book.
I’ve only gone further left since. As have my parents, incidentally.
Roger Moore
Both of my parents’ sides of the family were pretty hard core left- my father’s father was a UU, and my mother’s side of the family were European “Jews” who were actually committed atheists- but they never got very political around us. I think they spent more time indoctrinating us with their social values than with political ideals, but it had the effect of making my whole family left wingers. I was probably the most moderate of the bunch until the Shrub administration, which pushed me much further to the left than I had been.
RL Harrngton
Give them some Vonnegut to read
Player Piano , God Bless you Mr Roosevelt, and Welcome to the Monkey House will make them a liberal
Jeffro
@redshirt:
There’s a bunch on eBay, especially “Ollie for President”
I’d rather have a “Greaseman for President” one, myself…
Matt McIrvin
Anyway, I see a lot of my childhood attitude toward Nixon and Ford in my daughter’s veneration for Obama; some of it’s sort of automatic. I tell her I don’t agree with everything Obama says or does but that he’s generally been better than the alternatives. She has a kid’s book about the Presidents that she likes to read a lot; the history in sanitized kid form fascinates her.
(She’s decided she’s all in for Hillary Clinton this year, probably because female President. That’s her own thing; we haven’t particularly been talking up Clinton, and I am pretty sure my wife is in fact a Sanders supporter.)
My daughter hears a lot of leftish grumbling from us about political issues and I don’t suppose she’s applying a great deal of critical analysis to it yet. I try to explain what conservatives believe without being too condescending about them, but in some cases it can be hard.
WaterGirl
I don’t have kids, but I can talk about how I grew up. My first clear political memory is in 1960, the day JFK was inaugurated. I was 6 years old. My mom absolutely detested the Kennedy Family and thought this was the worst day in the history of the planet. I don’t think my dad ever said a word about politics, and my older sisters couldn’t have cared less about politics.
Even at 6 years old, I LOVED JFK, and I certainly didn’t get that from my mom.
Sometimes i think we are who we are when we come out of the womb. At 5, I was giving grasshoppers a ride in the basket of my bicycle because I thought they must get tired having to hop around all day, I was always making things for people and giving them presents, I loved dogs even though we weren’t allowed to have them, and when a girl I didn’t know well lost her mom, for weeks I made sure she had someone to sit with at lunch and play with at recess and hang out with after school. And I had my own political opinion that was different from those around me.
I may not be as nice and sweet as little WaterGirl was, but some things aren’t learned, they just come from within. Is politics one of those things? I’m just not sure, but I think it might be.
jl
And the political hardcores in my family are very hardcore. Seems like anything you say is fair game for a diatribe.
“The spruce trees look different on this side of the mountains, I wonder why?.” -> “Awww, that god damn global warming nonsense again!”
“They’re doing a historical fair at the Sonoma Mission, maybe we should stop by” -> “That damn Catholic church is horrible. Does horrible things. I don’t see the new pope really changing anything!”
The Pale Scot
A relative of mine was an accountant, he brought home the NYT, WSJ, US World Report which I started reading at pretty young age. Back then I had a photographic memory. Our first political argument was over the rationality of supply side economics. It boggled my mind that he wasn’t applying the law of diminishing returns. He is a master at picking stocks and managing a portfolio.
It’s been mostly downhill since then, it’s all about protecting his party now.
In 2002 I was criticizing Greenspan for saying people should get equity loans and invest it in the market, he said mortgages were at 4%, returns were 8%, seemed like a good idea. This from the guy who always adamantly counseled me to never buy stocks on margin.
Around that time he also insisted that the bushies had a plan for after the Iraq invasion, they just weren’t saying.
I think he’s getting fed up with the increasing irrationality, but he wouldn’t know what to do with himself without Fox.
Why couldn’t he just be a Cowboys fan?
Mike
Teach skeptical thinking, the scientific method, and always challenge them to justify their beliefs. You pretty much can’t internalize those things and end up a wingnut. You may be a small “c” conservative…and there’s nothing wrong with that. But having a rational basis for your world view pretty much (these days) defaults you to the left.
In better times, you’d be well advised to also encourage empathy. Being able to walk in another man’s shoes emotionally, can lead not only to a cooler head in times of conflict, but also to supporting ways of life with in turn support other people. We might love our ‘things’ but we can’t empathize with them. People therefore become more important than things….and the pursuit of them through money.
As you teach these skills, ask them to use them to question everything they see and hear. As they wrestle with the world, I’m always hopeful that they’ll arrive at a rational, compassionate answer for the problems they face.
No need to discuss Privatizing Social Security or Racism or the like directly (although it’s hard to argue with the latter).
Bill
@EconWatcher:
This one was challenging in my house. I’m an atheist (and not shy about it), and for a long time my wife was a kind of – sort of – believer. (Now I’d say she probably calls herself agnostic) We had a lot of conversations with the kids about what we believed and why, but independent of one another.
Ironically, my 20 year old atheist daughter chose a Jesuit university. She was required to take multiple theology classes, and did very well in them. It seems the diverse thinking she was raised with equipped her better to deal with heavy theological issues than the traditional Catholic upbringing of many of her classmates.
Go figure.
Corner Stone
@catbirdman:
Man, you really are into biology!
WaterGirl
@TheMightyTrowel: The Autobiography of Malcolm X was my favorite book for a long time, too. I should re-read that one of these days.
Jeffro
Btw stuff like this…coming just minutes after the Pope has spoken to Congress…this is why I “editorialize” in front of my kids about Ted Cruz above all the other clowns:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ted-cruz-death-penalty-pope
Thanks Ted – we are ever so glad for your opportunistic, death-glorifying, base-pandering ways.
Doug R
I am actually named after Tommy Douglas the inventor of Canadian socialized medicine.
Corner Stone
@Jeffro: I’ve never once seen that man that I didn’t wait optimistically for someone to punch him in the face.
dedc79
I recall my parents calling my grandfather out during a thanksgiving dinner circa 1988 when he tried to claim he had never voted for Richard Nixon when he in fact had. Things definitely got heated. He had been a pretty consistent democrat b/c of FDR and the New Deal but suffered a lapse of judgment in the late 60s early 70s. To his credit, he quickly returned to the fold to the point where his Nixon vote clearly embarrassed him.
Snarkworth
@the Conster: Raised Unitarian; my father was president of the congregation. Sunday school was a study in world religions, including Christian denominations, presented very respectfully.
Not surprisingly, my parents were active, vocal liberals. I had it easier than some of the folks here who had to make a break with their families.
jl
@Jeffro: Yes, I notice some of the usual suspect GOPers attacking stuff the Pope didn’t say (Steve King) or using his speech to make their political points (Cruz). Maybe they should have stayed away too.
I wonder why the Scalia, Alito and Thomas didn’t show up.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@EconWatcher:
I agree with other people that it’s worth seeking out a Unitarian Universalist church. They’re based in Christianity, but they’re non-creedal, which means you don’t have to profess any kind of belief. They’re also raging liberals and really big on social justice.
WaterGirl
OT, but at least related to politics…
I was rear-ended a couple of weeks ago and the back of my CRV had to be replaced. When they took my tire off the back door, the tire cover ripped, so it can’t be used again.
I’m really sad about that, because that’s where I had all my Obama stickers, and there’s a lot of history there – my time in Iowa before the caucuses, my time in Colorado before their caucus, etc. And not just Obama, though that’s the hardest for me to lose. My friends jokingly call my car the Obama-mobile.
I am sad.
JPL
@WaterGirl: That is sad.
maurinsky
I was raised Catholic, and my parents went to church every Sunday without fail (and then my father would take all of us kids to the club with him, aka the Irish Club, also known as a bar). I was skeptical as soon as I learned about Adam & Eve, because we had farm animals and I knew how babies were made, so I knew that WOMEN made the babies, and I was just offended by the general unfairness the Bible handed down to women.
I am an atheist, my kids father is, too. However, I have been a paid singer in various churches for many years now, and both of my daughters sang with me when they hit their teen years, so they were exposed to Congregational and Catholic services. Neither of them are believers. My mom also quit the church after their crimes against children.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
My mother died when I was 7, but in retrospect I realize that she must have been very politically involved, because otherwise why would I have been in favor of the ERA as a kindergartener? She was a dental hygienist who went into public health and got at least one dental education law passed in Illinois.
I think my dad got more conservative after she died (though less religious, because other family members used religion like a club on him, and my stepmom is a lifelong conservative atheist). The real breaking point was fucking Fox News, though. We were able to have sensible disagreements until those fuckers started filling his head with easily-digestible propaganda.
Jeffro
@WaterGirl: Did you at least save the tire cover (even a piece?) – you know, fold it up and put it with other life souvenirs someplace? I would.
Totally understandable about the loss, though. Send OFA a note about it and see what happens – you might just get a nice note from our favorite President!
Matt McIrvin
@Jeffro: The thing about kids’ books of Bible stories is that they generally take a very evangelistic point of view, and clean up the stories so that they make far more internal sense than the ones in the actual Bible.
My parents, who were not particularly formally religious by that point, suggested I read one of those so I’d have some cultural familiarity with Christian tropes. I remember it scaring the crap out of me and helping turn me into sort of a temporary Christian, and I also remember being shocked when I read the Bible and realized how different and how weird it was, which was one of the things that put an end to that episode.
rikyrah
Governor Scott Walker supports bill to reshape state hiring process
Posted 12:19 pm, September 24, 2015, by AP Wire Service
MADISON — Gov. Scott Walker is telling Republican state Assembly members that he supports a plan making it easier to fire state workers as part of a rewrite of the law governing the hiring and firing process.
Walker spoke about the plan during a 15-minute speech to Assembly Republicans on Thursday.
Assembly Majority Leader Jim Steineke and Sen. Roger Roth are preparing a bill that would eliminate exams for prospective state workers, shift hiring authority from state agencies to the Department of Administration and define “just cause” for terminations
http://fox6now.com/2015/09/24/governor-scott-walker-supports-bill-to-reshape-state-hiring-process/
catbirdman
@Corner Stone: Not sure what you mean by that, but when one of the parents comes from a family where the parents divorced and remarried, the grandkids end up with six grandparents.
Betty Cracker
@Mike: It sounds like you’re much better at controlling the flow of the conversation than I am!
redshirt
@WaterGirl:
I am mildly ashamed I removed my two Obama stickers (the first one went on December 2007). But I had planned it after last year’s mid-terms for awhile, because 1. I would get frequently harassed by other drivers, and 2. I drive like a Bostonian, but I am in very rural Maine, and I can tell it shocks quite a few of the geezers. I felt like I was giving Obama a bad name by being an aggressive driver.
patrick II
I did not hit my kids very hard with politics. I did teach them about having some care about what happens to people outside of them and their circle of friends. And I also taught them enough about science and how to tell truth from fantasy. From that point politics pretty much took care of itself.
Amir Khalid
@rikyrah:
The guy’s just an evil bastard, isn’t he?
Matt McIrvin
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I remember my little sister stepping in it when she was a kid by vocally supporting the Equal Rights Amendment in front of the nice lady from across the street, who suddenly flew into a smoke-from-the-ears rant about how she shouldn’t ever expect any man to hold that door for her, missy. I think I found it more disturbing than my sister did; the lesson I took away was to keep my head down about politics around adults in that neighborhood.
Jeffro
@Matt McIrvin:
Ok, noted – I will still be there to ‘supervise’ (i.e., eyeroll myself to death). Not sure how a talking burning bush, a worldwide flood (w/ an ark big enough to hold 2 of everything in creation), faith healing, loaves & fishes, etc are going to make any internal sense, but I guess we’ll see.
bluehill
I feel sorry for Krohn. His dad tried to indoctrinate him by making it seem that his opinions were “facts.” As the kid grows up he begins learning other real facts that conflict what he is dad said. Couple that with Krohn’s intelligence, curiosity and, in my view, little tolerance for ambiguity and you have one messed up kid. Seems like one of the underpinnings of his view of the world is gone and he struggling to make sense of it. So much so that he went to Iraq to figure it out.
Snarkworth
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Unitarian-Universalists are sometimes referred to as Noisy Quakers.
redshirt
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
I’ve had the same experience with my father. He was always a Republican, but never religious and it was clear he was only in it for low taxes.
But since Fox, he started dropping buzzwords and became angry. He cancelled Xmas in 2012 because Obama won and everyone but him voted for him. But surprisingly, since that low, he’s come around and no longer brings up anything political. I’m heartened to know he realized he went too far. He’ll never admit it, but his behavior since that low speaks volumes.
Starfish
@Corner Stone: A person in AZ or TX complaining about immigration seems more legitimate than someone from NY complaining about immigration. Border states that don’t have much of a social safety net are going to see what little they have blown through when the population of people without health insurance and car insurance rise rapidly. In the past twenty years, the place I live has gone from 10% to about 30% hispanic, and the people who are most uncomfortable with that are the people who have to live near the new population of immigrants or vie with them for services. This change in demographics means that a lot of things that you would not think about are done bilingually, and providing those services in two languages adds to the cost.
Miss Bianca
My poor parents. There they were, typical Republicans of the upper-middle-class WASP Greatest Generation variety (Dad was actually Yale Class of 45W, same class as GHWB – they weren’t buds, but they knew each other) : racists, but mutedly so; classists, but not without conscience; sexist in that classic “be smart but not TOO smart, cuz men don’t like uppity women” way. Old-fashioned conservatives, the biggest worm in their apple being Those Darn 60s with their Drugs, Sex, and Rock and Roll, which seriously radicalized most of their daughters – even me, tho’ I came along almost a generation after them. As my mother used to say, “my boys turned out fine (ie, just left of John Birch), but MY GIRLS, MY GIRLS, OMG…” (or words to that effect. Taking the Lord’s name in vain was just one of many, many things we disagreed on). I think I went from being a good little larval Republican to a budding Socialist around the time of the Carter administration. Never had kids, but have no doubt they would have honored my rebellious streak by becoming Young Republicans. Probably best for them and all the world that I never spawned.
tsquared2001
Since Dad was the Minister Of Information for local chapter of the Black Panther Party, there were A LOT of politics discussed at the dinner table and all five of us were raised to dis The Man whenever & wherever possible.
I still tend to take politics more seriously than is probably good for my blood pressure but when your earliest memories are of FBI agents parked outside your house and racing out the house in the middle of the night due to a bomb threat, it is difficult to obtain any detachment. Life and death wasn’t just hyperbole.
Corner Stone
@WaterGirl:
Maybe you could make it into some kind of wall art? Hang it up in your kitchen as a conversation starter.
Tom
Politics weren’t a big topic of discussion when I was a kid. My mother was an outspoken environmentalist and my dad was a lawyer. Our town was mainly Republican as we were the world HQ for both Dow Chemical and Dow Corning.
Both my folks had progressive views but my dad had to get along with the locals as he ran his own business. At one point he was the chair for the county Republican organization.
Corner Stone
@catbirdman: Was a lame attempt at a cloning joke.
dedc79
Just got into an argument with someone about the Pope’s environmentalism. The person insists that human beings couldn’t possibly change the earth’s climate. I pointed out that it didn’t take us all that long to blow a hole in the ozone layer so why couldn’t we change the climate given all we’ve done to the planet (deforestation, burning of fossil fuels, raising of livestock). She responded, i kid you not, with “But that problem fixed itself.” I pointed out that maybe, just maybe, the Montreal Protocol has had something to do with it. But no, the ozone layer healed itself, and how could I not know that? I didn’t have the stomach to take the argument any further.
Benw
@WaterGirl: sorry, that sucks, man.
Kay
@rikyrah:
You know this, but one of the reasons AA are over-represented in the public sector is because there was an objective measure- a test they could pass. They were being passed over in the private sector because the employer could hide bias behind a host of other reasons. That’s part of the reason “step raises” and promotions based on seniority helped make a black middle class. It was the only way they could get a fair shot and enter the management class, even if it was at the lowest level. Private sector followed public sector. It didn’t lead.
It’s such a shame to see them throw these things away without anyone thinking it thru or knowing the history based on this delusion that everything runs on pure merit and if we just get rid of the rules “the best” will prevail.
Paul in KY
Both my parents are Democrats. Father came from a house that adored FDR. Mother from lower-middle class England. Household there favoured Labor.
srv
As honorary uncle to many friends kids, I reprogram them as much as possible. Nukular familiy, political influence is via scowling and the raised eyebrow.
Politics is a complete waste of time on most kids – you need to focus on ideology. Their brains don’t do shades-of-gray at that age. It has to be up/down, left/right, black/white, whatever.
Last weekend, college roommate’s tween and I mutually reached the conclusion that she is a revolutionary. I said that’s great, but only the thinkers survive – if you stand out front, you get shot. So always pick the people you’re willing to expend and push them out front.
She seemed to have a lot of people she was ready to throw under the bus. Jr. High girls are awesome like that.
Paul in KY
@NobodySpecial: I voted for Anderson in 1980. Good guy. In hindsight, a mistake. I was VERY pissed at Pres. Carter for boycotting Olympics.
You have to understand: WE ONLY HAD 3 CHANNELS BACK THEN!!!!
Mike J
@WaterGirl: Related to your off topic, major duck crash just happened in Seattle. Landing craft now used for amphibious tours hit a bus on the Aurora bridge.
Multiple severe injuries.
Jeffro
@Paul in KY:
And PBS.
Paul in KY
@redshirt: I bet you were something back then :-)
Miss Bianca
@tsquared2001:
wow. That’s heavy. When all of us got together we’d end up in screaming matches about things like the MOVE bombing. My one sister, the one who was the courtroom artist at the trial of the Harrisburg Seven, tended to be the one who mixed things up the most.
redshirt
@Paul in KY: I was a huge ass. Thankfully I met a hippie chick and everything changed.
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: Boy is he an evil SOB.
Anoniminous
@tsquared2001:
What you experienced should not be lost. Ever consider writing it all down?
WaterGirl
@Jeffro: I did keep the tire cover. In fact, when I dropped off the car for repair, I told them that the tire cover meant a lot to me and that I would like to keep it even if the repair called for a new one. The owner was very apologetic when he phoned me yesterday – he felt he should deliver the bad news personally, which was really nice of hm.
So yes, when I picked up the car yesterday I found the old tire cover lovingly placed in the back of the vehicle. Sadly, there’s no way I can get the stickers off. I do have a box in the closet from the early days of trying to get Obama nominated, and I hope I maybe have one duplicate sticker, at least.
I mean, I can replace:
– If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention
– It’s hard to convince people that you’re killing them for their own good – molly vins
– When I grow up, I want to be too big to fail.
But what’s the point if all my Obama stuff is gone? Happily, “I Bark for Barack” and “4 more Years (barack and michelle hugging) are magnetic, so they are still on the sides.
Off to see if I can find my Obama box.
Roger Moore
@Starfish:
Yet somehow California has managed to deal with a large influx of immigrants- including a large number from Asia as well as from Mexico- without turning into a sewer of nativism.
Paul in KY
@tsquared2001: Wow! That was an unusual upbringing. Would think you would get some props at school for having a dad who was ‘Minister of Information’ (assuming you didn’t have to go to Inbred Hick High)
Matt McIrvin
@Bobby Thomson: I dunno, I’ve seen plenty of people who were huge on “skepticism” and “critical thinking” and believed incredible amounts of nonsense. They had the forms but maybe not the essence.
Grumpy Code Monkey
My folks were TX Hill Country Germans who grew up in the ’30s and ’40s. Having grown up somewhat cash-poor, they were amenable to the Democratic viewpoint of social safety nets and anti-poverty programs. They tended to come down on the “liberal” side of most issues, and I never saw them get hung up about things like race or religion.
But, they put a higher premium on being polite and getting along, so they usually didn’t voice their opinions that strongly, even to us kids at home. They’d bitch about the idiocy of various individual politicians (I remember my father yelling “burn the tapes” at the TV at one point), but they never really pushed a political or ideological viewpoint on us. I think they genuinely wanted my sister and I to find our own way in that respect.
Then again, this was the ’70s; we weren’t in a nonstop marinade of 24-hour “news” and our own adrenline. You had the newspaper, you had three networks that gave you an hour’s worth of news two or three times a day, and that was it. If Fox News had been around 50 years ago…well, I won’t speculate, but let’s just say I’m glad it wasn’t.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Starfish:
The problem with the person in AZ or TX complaining about immigration is that they tend to conflate all Latinos they encounter into being “immigrants,” even if those people’s ancestors were in AZ or TX when those areas were still owned by Mexico.
Border states have always been very fluid on both sides of the border, and it’s very common for American citizens of Mexican descent to have family on both sides of the border. But that often gets conflated into complaints about “illegals.”
Paul in KY
@dedc79: Would just have chuckled at her. Shook my head & moved on. How ever could 6 billion people & all our stuff ever change the environment?!?! That’s just crazy talk!
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Starfish:
You’ll also hear a lot of complaints in AZ about those damn Indians, who by definition were here before anyone else, so I really don’t think the complaints you’re hearing are as reality-based as you’re giving them credit for.
Paul in KY
@srv: You would have made a good Bolshevik.
MomSense
I join the others who have suggested Unitarian Universalist congregations. There are usually a lot of inter-faith families which is good exposure for kids.
They also offer comprehensive sexual education courses for all ages. Our Whole Lives is such a great program and has helped so many teens and young adults, mine included, make healthy choices about their sexuality.
Paul in KY
@redshirt: Lucky dog!
Evan
My son, age 11: “So is there a form I need to fill out, or what? Because I think I want to be a liberal, and I’m not sure what you’re supposed to do.”
WaterGirl
@Jeffro: @JPL:
Oh, yay! I found two stickers in my Obama box! Obama ’08 and OBAMA with the O symbol. That makes me happy.
Anoniminous
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Here in New Mexico it’s bog-standard for Texans to move in and then complain about “illegals” speaking Spanish all over the place.
And then there is this.
dedc79
@Paul in KY: I think part of the blame belongs on our broken two-party system I think a lot of the climate change deniers are just following the party line. They are, say, anti-abortion, and they’re willing to swallow all the other republican nonsense to align themselves with the anti-abortion politicians. There’s blame to go around for sure, but it’d sure be nice if american voters were offered more than two choices.
WaterGirl
@MomSense: From what you’ve told us, your dad didn’t exactly hide his light under a bushel, and you turned out pretty good! :-)
I’m sure he’s as proud of you as you are of him.
WaterGirl
@Evan: That is so great.
Paul in KY
@dedc79: They’d still be in some anti-abortion party that happened to think climate change was real. the abortion stuff would trump, IMO.
redshirt
@WaterGirl: lol. I’ve got an Obama box too. I still have Obama08 stickers, plus a ton of 2012 stuff.
I occasionally rock my “Barack O’Bama” green shamrock t-shirt which never fails to confuse people.
WaterGirl
@Mike J: That’s awful. Looks like 2 people have died and tons of injuries. Fuck.
I have no idea of the cause of the crash, but sometimes I wonder if humans are mentally equipped to be able to be in control of heavy objects that can cause so much death and destruction if we just stop paying attention for even just a second.
My little accident reminded me of what a huge responsibility driving a vehicle is.
Steve in the ATL
@tsquared2001:
That’s awesome! My parents were deep thinkers so we had great conversations and debates at the dinner table every night, but limited perspectives since we lived in an all white neighborhood, attended all white private schools, and tennis at the (obviously) all white country club. Would love to have know people like that back then.
WaterGirl
@Corner Stone: Do they make round frames? If so, I could take a photo and put it in a round frame on the wall. :-)
Betty Cracker
@redshirt: I had the shamrock thing on a button attached to my backpack during the 2008 campaign. It would seem odd to me to wear campaign gear after a campaign is over, though. It seems a little…worshipful. I felt the same way about JFK photos in the homes of childhood friends in the 70s/80s: You have a picture of a politician in your house? Right next to Jesus?
WaterGirl
@redshirt: I live in a college town and I’m a pretty mild driver, so I don’t have to worry about either giving Obama a bad name or getting a bad response to my vehicle. Coming out of the grocery store (or wherever) I often find people “reading” the back of my vehicle and I often get compliments on it. But yeah, there’s no giving people the finger when you are driving an Obama-mobile…
I don’t do that anyway, but I do admit to one time giving a bus driver “the mitten” after he nearly ran me down in the street a few years ago. Some people prefer gloves to mittens, I have never understood that.
Davis X. Machina
@redshirt:
Not necessarily a bad idea.
Shit happens even in Maine. In 2004 I had a rock the size of a cantaloupe put through the back window of my minivan, while it sat in my driveway, thanks I am sure to the Kerry and anti-Iraq war bumper stickers. It was clear from talking to the sheriff’s deputy that I had it coming.
WaterGirl
Betty, I think you and Cole are the best conversation starters here. I wish I had that gift!
Matt McIrvin
@dedc79: For that matter, a lot of the people who do believe in anthropogenic climate change are just following the party line. That they happen to be right is just luck.
Dan Kahan likes to write about this on culturalcognition.net. Unfortunately this means that there’s this persistent global-warming denialist in the comments who thinks he’s a potential ally and won’t go away.
I used to worry about this a lot: it sounded like the science behind global warming was correct, but I was a liberal Democrat so of course I would believe that, and I worried that my ideological affiliations were clouding my judgment. What finally ended that was reading up some more on the denialists, things like Tim Lambert’s analyses of McIntyre and McKittrick’s arguments, and finally realizing just how bad their arguments really were. A lot of what seemed superficially like legitimate disagreement was just sort of trolling.
Elie
My parents were missionaries. We lived in Brazil for the first 8 years of my life. While they were Christian, they were not radical bible thumpers and used their religious beliefs and practice to highlight the morals we should follow and our obligations as human beings to uphold kindness, mercy and service to humanity. We were politically aware from the start and I remember the early civil rights movement in the US through the lens of my parents involvements (which were low key) and conversations around the dinner table.
Being a black American has certain realities, experiences and burdens. My parents wanted my sister and I to be 1) as educated as we could be and 2) to make a moral difference on this planet. I ended up a nurse and my sister a teacher. I am very involved politically and for the environment.
During the 60’s we believed and acted on non-violent political involvement, boycotts, sit-ins and strongly advocated for integration. Our family was one of the first black families in a south Chicago neighborhood, Marynook. We all believed in progress and in the value of “doing the right thing” for all people, and were somewhat naïve about what other white people may have thought… like we thought that they might also actually believe in the founding principles of this nation. And initially, that really seemed true as the media carefully documented the realities and horrors of segregation and the righteous battle waged against it. How different now, though not completely. One good thing are the blogs like this one and the ubiquity of information — the inability (for the most part), of anyone to control it (praise be). I have a lot of faith in that.
All people want to be free and to me, that has been the one trend that has been true throughout history — maybe one step forward, sometimes a couple back, but people always lean forward into having more freedom and more rights to be who they are. For all our unevenness in this country, for all that we still struggle to attain, I tip my hat to our vision of this — that the majority at least understand and want this. I believe that in my marrow, and even though we face some real challenges not just here in this country, but worldwide, I do believe in the power of freedom and the belief that people want it and know it like the most precious water needed to support their bodies. Once seen and once owned, it will never be put asunder.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: My dad still has a portrait of Pres. Kennedy in the basement. They loved him (were Catholic back then).
glory b
If you’ve seen the episode of “black-ish” where junior joins the Young Republicans to impress a girl, that’s my family’s reaction if the same happened.
“We’re black, we DON’T vote Republican!!”
Seriously, my parents (Dad born in rural Georgia pre-civil rights era) thought that anything else other than voting for Dems was a threat to the future of the race. Indoctrinate? You don’t know the half of it.
redshirt
@Davis X. Machina:
True, but I still felt shame, like I was backing down. But I have a general personal policy of not bringing attention to myself, and bumper stickers – all bumper stickers – are the very definition of bringing attention to yourself.
I never had any vandalism, but I’d get these redneck trucks riding up on me, obviously trying to intimidate. I’m the wrong mark for that, but still, it grew tiresome. But more of the reason was I didn’t want to give Obama a bad name amongst these drivers, the slowest drivers in the world.
sacrablue
@WaterGirl: Mount it in a shadowbox frame. It doesn’t need to be round or buy one of those shadowbox coffee tables and display lots of your Obama stuff.
WaterGirl
@redshirt:
If that happened to me, I might just make the same choice you did. No shame. Just make a difference in some other way.
Bill
@tsquared2001:
This is a tremendous personal history. I’d be fascinated to hear more about what your childhood was like.
redshirt
@Betty Cracker:
I agree for the most part. I only wear the T-shirt for affect, and rarely at that. It’s a quality T.
I had the most wonderful conversation with a checkout dude at the Hannafords. He kept looking at my shirt, and his face was all confused, and then he finally asked “What does your t-shirt mean” and I replied that Obama was Irish, and he was stone faced and replied “no, he’s black” and I replied maybe, but his mom was Irish, and he literally just stammered. He couldn’t process it. Then. Maybe later.
Roger Moore
@Matt McIrvin:
It’s not just luck. One party believes in science and listening to evidence, and the other party believes in money and concocting evidence. It’s not happenstance which one people join.
glory b
@geg6: And you’re from Pittsburgh, right? So am I.
I’d never believed that the white steelworkers and other blue collar folks (or their progeny) would ever turn their backs on the unions.
Brachiator
@dedc79:
I’ve been seeing this with a few people. The religious say man cannot change the climate because only the deity can do that. Others just say that the weather is too complex to really understand and that there are just regular cycles that explain any fluctuations. One radio talk show host here is really big on this. But his is a “common sense” objection, because he never cites any scientists that can cite any data or analysis to support this position.
However, I have to note that even though this particular radio host denies climate change, he thinks that the Republicans and the Democrats are both corrupt (but that the Democrats are worse). There is not a simple party line followed here.
Ajabu
When our son was six (the 1992 election) they had a student election at school. He was all for GHWB. His reasoning – at 6 – was “He has to win. He’s the President.”
A rather bizarre position for a Black child and certainly not one shared by his parents.
Now that he’s almost 30 (and still Black) his politics are a little more nuanced. I like to occasionally remind him of his youthful foray into Republican politics. He’d rather not be reminded…
BruceFromOhio
When the kiddoes were little, it was very neutral explanations. Stick to facts, admit to gaps in knowledge, and encourage discovery and exploration of the unknown (“Gee, honey, I’m not exactly sure what the biggest animal is.. let’s go to the library after supper and find out!”)
We knew we could go further afield the first time my youngest came home absolutely fit to be tied that a) a girl in her grade was suspended for having ibuprofen in her locker and b) that the school bond issue was not getting enough publicity and probably wouldn’t pass.
Since then it’s been point-blank on gender issues and party politics. Both TeensFromOhio are on their way to being staunch, unapologetic liberals. Youngest is excited to vote in her first election as a Democrat, and voting for a woman.
glory b
@tsquared2001: Sounds like the makings of a good book!
My Mom had some pretty radical (for her time) beliefs, but she was a nurse. My Dad was a teacher/counselor/principal in the Pittsburgh Public Schools. Kinda boring, but GREAT people.
'Niques
@WaterGirl: Can you frame the remainder and hang it on your wall?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
I hope Cervantes will post his experiences. I suspect the thread will be dead by then though.
Cheers,
Scott.
rk
I’ve never bothered with being neutral. My opinions about republicans are quite open. They’ve been crazy for the last 20 years at least and I have no hesitation saying it. The truth is the truth and my house is not a fair and balanced news channel. Now that my kids have grown and formed their own opinions they’ve said that when they were younger they thought that I was exaggerating, but now they think republicans are even more insane than I said. It’s sometimes hard because our neighbors are republicans and some of the nicest people to interact with and far better than some democrats we know. But our republican neighbors love Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin. It’s important for kids to know that nice people can believe in crazy things.
maurinsky
@Paul in KY:
My parents have so many portraits of the Kennedys that we call JFK Uncle Jack.
My family is Irish, so we STARTED conversations with politics and religion.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@Ajabu: Hah – this memory just came unblocked: in my sixth-grade history class (I think), I got to deliver a (really bad) speech on why Jimmy Carter should be elected President in 1976. Like at 11 years old I knew shit about Jimmy Carter or why he’d be a good President.
Ford really got a raw deal. I’m not sure we wouldn’t be better off today if he had won in ’76, mainly to deny the Reagan wing 1980 and better normalize things after Watergate.
rk
@Steve in the ATL: @Steve in the ATL:
I’ve told my kids I’ll disown them if they marry right wing nut jobs from any religion. My father was a scientist and if you ever talked about any superstition or non scientific beliefs, his only response would be “I did not send you to good schools so that you’d talk like an illiterate”.
Jeffro
@Davis X. Machina: I used to have stickers on my car every year – Gore, Dean, Kerry, etc, and the state candidates too. Nothing ever happened, but I thought about it and realized my stickers don’t convince anyone of anything, they just make me a target.
So I upped my campaign contributions and phone bank each cycle, and every time I see McCain/Palin stickers (usually with the McCain part cut off) or Cuccinelli stickers or whatever, I just laugh a little. Happy to outwork them and skip the sticker. That’s just me – I realize that some people really like them, and I applaud them “flying the flag”, so to speak.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@Brachiator: Oh, man. From my facebook feed:
I only took a few Sunday school classes over 40 years ago, but I seem to remember ol’ Yeshua being down with the idea of wealth redistribution. I’ve never heard Francis say anything about world governments or currency, but it’s not like I follow his encyclicals that closely; I may have just missed it. And the climate change thing…I mean, that’s just weird. Like, how is that a point of contention with respect to Christianity?
God only promised He wouldn’t destroy the world (again). He never said boo about not letting us drown in our own shit.
MomSense
@WaterGirl:
Our house was always a hotbed of activity! I’m very proud of my Mom and Dad.
Betty Cracker
@rk: Refraining from indoctrination =/= neutrality. On the other hand, I can’t imagine disowning a child over politics, so maybe I am a squish.
Sounds like we’re in the same boat w/ wingnut neighbors. We’re surrounded by them too, plus have wingnut family members, some of whom are among the nicest, sweetest, most polite people imaginable, but yeah, sometimes people just believe crazy things.
redshirt
@Betty Cracker:
What if you somehow raised Alex P. Keaton?
cosima
My daughter was 3 when the Obama/McCain race was on, and one day when she didn’t get her way and was angry at me she told me “when I grow up I’m going to name my daughter Sarah Palin.” That may give you some idea as to how she was discussed in our household. Our oldest barely (2 weeks) managed to cast her first vote ever for Obama. She was off at university when the youngest & I saw President Obama (twice) in Denver, and marched in Denver’s Gay Pride parade. The youngest has walked miles with me registering voters, sat entertaining volunteers as we phone-banked, made many many posters, and much much more. We’ve now been back in Scotland (where she was born) for almost 3 years, and the Democrat/Republican issue doesn’t loom as large. The UK political system is completely incomprehensible to me, so we don’t discuss politics much at all these days. We did talk quite a bit about the Scottish independence issue — we had strong feelings about that, and even as young as she was she could sense that it stirred up a lot of the same feelings/animosities as the GOP vs. Dem issue did/does in the U.S., and she was front & centre for a lot of that as she tagged along with me.
Now that she’s 10, and we’re in a different place, with a completely different set of issues, our talks are more general, related to race, human rights, women’s rights, etc., without assigning them a party. And I have to say that as a parent, it’s a relief to be able to do that, to not feel under siege politically, as I always did in the U.S. (part of the reason that I still faithfully read BJ, though my husband often asks me when I will stop reading about U.S. politics). I was not politically active at all with our eldest, and most of her teen years were spent here in Scotland. But she was raised to value diversity, women’s rights, and to question religious authority, so she’s gone totally in on being part of the Democratic party. She’s a big Bernie supporter these days (lives in Vermont), but would vote for Hillary if need be.
All of that is, I guess, a very long way of saying discuss the issues that are important to you in age-appropriate ways, without assigning political affiliation to them, and children will figure out where they land on the political spectrum naturally.
Betty Cracker
@redshirt: I’d probably deal with it the same way my redneck, wingnut dad and I reached an accord to keep family harmony: We don’t discuss politics. There’s plenty of other stuff to talk about!
A few times my dad and I have slipped up over the years and almost got into a heated argument, but one or the other of us always says,” Oh wait, we don’t talk about this.” Same with my husband and my dad, who get along famously and go on fishing trips together, etc. They just don’t talk about it.
rk
@Betty Cracker:
I probably would have been more tolerant a few years ago, but right wingers are a pretty vicious bunch . As a non white I’ve lost all patience with this in your face nonsense. I’m effected at a more personal level. My kids can pass of as Hispanic and so Trump and his followers’ nonsense hits closer to home. My son can easily become a Trayvon Martin (I keep telling him not to walk in the neighborhood with his hoodie on, or do not knock at a door if he is lost). I cannot give an ounce of respect to such people. I can totally agree to disagree respectfully with people who have policy differences. But I won’t have anything to do with right wingers who think gays are going to hell, blacks are inferior beings, climate change is a myth, women belong barefoot and pregnant, and Obama is a Kenyan Muslim socialist who has destroyed this country. life is too short to waste on such people and if any of my kids (for whatever crazy reason) tie the knot with such people then I can’t be a part of it.
Brachiator
@Grumpy Code Monkey: Wow. I would be mildly curious about one thing if I saw this stuff.
Where? I know that wingnuts like to claim that religion endorses capitalism, but aside from the Book of Fox News, where do they think that Jesus ever says anything about this. And they have to do better than mumbling about Caesar.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Betty Cracker:
Your childhood friends were Irish Catholics. Less politics and more ethnic/religious pride.
okay, then
I grew up in the late 60s on the Louisiana Gulf Coast. Everybody voted Democratic then (except for one wealthy – for that area and time — family that was whispered to be Republican). I moved to Little Rock after grad school when Bill Clinton was finishing up his time there. What a surprise when I moved to upstate South Carolina in the mid-90s to discover that not only were most of the people there Republicans, but I was too intimidated to wear my “Cure for the Blues” Clinton sweatshirt on walks in my neighborhood.
I raised my children to be tolerant, honest, compassionate and liberal. They may not always be all of those things, but who is?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Brachiator:
I recognize all of the buzzwords from Fred Clark’s “Left Behind” critiques. That’s a premillennial dispensationalist right there, or at least someone who’s read all of Tim LaHaye’s books. You could play End Times Bingo and win just based on that single paragraph.
tsquared2001
@Miss Bianca: Eventually Dad took a job as a city planner, conducting outreach meetings to various neighborhood groups over city initiatives. Me and my brothers used to just LOVE to tweak him over being a sellout.
tsquared2001
@Anoniminous: My older brother tried many times to write the family history but it turns we as a family are more into oral history.
tsquared2001
@Paul in KY: It is even weirder when you consider Mom was an Irish redhead who told us all stories of the Great Depression. It wasn’t explicit like others have posted BUT it was QUITE clear, voting for ANY Republican would result in banishment. I never even met a Republican until college.
Bill Arnold
@Matt McIrvin:
Arguments with people like that are the most fun. (Full disclosure; I once thought cow-tipping was a real thing.)
Nicole
All I know is they pick up political issues where you least expect it. An actual conversation I had with my 5-year-old on the bus:
Him: Mama? Why can’t people who have been in prison get jobs?
Me: Uh… well, they have to say they’ve been in prison when they apply for jobs and lots of places are afraid to give them a chance. It’s a real problem. (pause) Where did you hear about this?
Him: Antman.
(as in, the movie Antman. And he’s right; it is a plot point in the movie. If he goes away from a superhero flick thinking it is unfair ex-convicts can’t find work, then I consider the $10 ticket money well spent.)
J R in WV
My parents were Republicans, Rockefeller Republicans. We lived in coal country, where the vast majority of folks were Union Democrats, with pictures of FDR and JFK on the living room wall, sometimes with Jesus on the wall between them.
Yet they were against segregation, and held MLK Jr in high regard. Dad was an atheist and Mom was agnostic, when I was a kid. My first recollection of church was Presbyterian. Sunday school, with other kids my age that I didn’t really know well. I loved the sanctuary, it was big and quiet, high ceiling, and I would roll on the carpet under the pews.
Then, with other social lliberals, the parents helped found a Unitarian-universalist fellowship, which was intended to allow UUs without the resources to hire a trained minister to get together on Sunday mornings and someone would read an article or sermon from the UU organization, there would be a discussion, and then coffee and cookies.
I wasn’t really political until I went away to a liberal arts college where there were a lot of intellectual leftists, many of them somewhat religious. The V-N war was raging, and there was a lot of campus opposition to the war. When I realized I could be drafted and forced into combat regardless of my beliefs and the facts on the ground, I got leftist a long way very quickly.
I had Obama stickers on all of our vehicles, right here in WV. Once in Arizona we were passed by a biker who gave us a thumbs down as he went by. Then up in Ohio we were passed by a Chrysler, and a old white guy in the back seat gave me the finger. That’s all the vitriol we ever got from the Obama stickers. We traded one vehicle in, and wrecked – totaled – the other one. I miss those bumper stickers still.
I got the first one while Barack and Hillary were still duking it out for the nomination!
I can’t understand how people can ignore facts just because they’re inconvenient.
Bill Arnold
My mother was a liberal Quaker (AFSC member) who just barely kept her job in the McCarthy era, father was a Rockefeller Republican from a line of Republicans since the Republican party was formed. Father (said he) switched to voting mostly for Democrats in 1992, primarily due to the shift to doctrinaire hostility towards environmentalism in the Republican party. Being literally told the leave Death Valley during the Gingrich government shutdown sealed the deal. They had a joint bird list, where both had to visually identify the bird, and both volunteered at local nature preserves/education centers; the environmentalism was a real thing.
My brother and sister and I were raised as pacifists, with what is now called a “free range” upbringing. There was very little discussion of politics when we were growing up. No religion either, except for the very occasional Quaker meeting or Episcopalian Sunday service.
J R in WV
@J R in WV:
More on the parents: On her deathbed, my Mom became more atheist than agnostic. She also told Mrs J and I that she had voted for the Democratic presidential candidate, had struggled to stay alive to vote one more time against the Republican candidate. Because she was pro-choice on abortion. Solidly so.
I believe that she had a relative or close friend who died after a botched abortion back in the good old days when reproductive health care was fucking illegal!!
Once Mom died, in Dad’s arms in their bedroom, where he cared for her, he shifted gradually away from being an atheist, to at least hoping there was an afterlife. So he could be with his love, my Mom, again. He missed her very much.
Real love story there. He was not a cooking and house keeping kind of guy, but he learned how to do it for her, when she couldn’t do it any more for them.
And then when Dad fell and hurt himself, I took care of him. Did you know that someone who participates in a clinical trial can’t find a room in a rehab center? No nursing home will admit someone taking an experimental drug, at least not here. So I drove nearly 2 hours up to his house, after work, and fixed dinner, gave him his meds, bathed him, went to bed. Got up, drove 2 hours to work, drove back again.
I found a lady to stay with him days, and she spent a couple of nights with him so I could go home, see my dogs and cats, And the Mrs. One night a week she would go up to stay with him, and I would go home and feed the critters and sleep in put bed, alone.
That’s something that needs fixed! If you take money from the government, you need to accept anyone who can pay the freight, or whom the government will cover.
msnthrop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqGhMQQP6ag
Kerry Reid
My parents were big New Deal Democrats. The Watergate hearings were huge in our house and a trip to the movie theater to see “All the President’s Men” was mandatory.
Oh, and my mom put a big “Impeach Nixon” sign on the front door right after the Saturday Night Massacre.
maurinsky
My mother writes “Friends don’t let friends vote Republican” on every envelope that she sends out.