———–UPDATE———-
Here’s the live link to the press conference:
http://interactive.kgw.com/mobile/breaking-video-2.html
———————————
*
In the wake of last night’s arrests of Ammon Bundy and several of the other leaders and most notable members of the Malheur Federal Wildlife Refuge Occupation, the shooting and wounding of Ryan Bundy, and the shooting and death of Lavoy Finicum, things are not quite over. Les Zaitz has reported out that one of the others in Finicum’s vehicle has stated that he refused to give up, ignored orders from law enforcement, and then charged the officers. He is also reporting that the occupation is now more of a standoff. The FBI has sealed the refuge off and Jason Patrick, the new onsite leader and a Georgia plumber, has indicated the remaining occupiers have voted and are not giving up. According to Zaitz’s reporting Patrick made several demands of the FBI negotiator and had them all rejected. Both Zaitz and JJ McNabb have reported on their twitter feeds that despite calls for support from the Pacific Patriots Network, the PPN is not coming. Moreover, the PPN put out a statement telling everyone to remain calm, not act before all the facts are in, and not to converge on the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. The press conference with the US Attorney, FBI SSAC, and Sheriff is now scheduled for 11:00 AM PST/2:00 PM EST. If I can find a link to a live stream I’ll update with it.
——UPDATE——-
Here are the eye witness video accounts recounting how Finicum was killed. While the Facebook pages seem to have gone down, Travis Getty at RawStory saved them:
Jerzy Russian
Christ, what a bunch of assholes.
catclub
progress.
Turn off electricity?
scav
@catclub: It’s certainly well stocked with dim bulbs. About the only thing they manged to pack in themselves, although they are sending out calls for more.
Snarki, child of Loki
They’ll give up when they run out of lube for those dildos they got.
Sure, they’re “rough, tough” militia dudes, but they’re not THAT tough.
feebog
Wanna be revolutionaries. Looks like the total IQ of this bunch is equivalent to bushel of cabbages.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@catclub: The electricity is provide by a coop without the infrastructure to isolate a location and turn it off. Probably there is a better way to express it, but that’s the gist.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Arrest anyone coming in or out. No need to turn off power or internet or anything. There’s no food. This’ll be over soon enough no matter what, unless they can eat dildos.
Adam L Silverman
@catclub: Can’t do it. Reason 1: the line man or woman would have to be exposed to fire from whoever they put in the watchtower. Reason 2: would mess up how the Harney County Electrical Co-op distributes power throughout their service area.
TaMara (BHF)
When even the crazies won’t back you up, you gotta know you’re fucked, right?
Felonius Monk
@feebog:
Cabbages are smarter.
Adam L Silverman
I’ve just updated with the videos of the eye witness statements to how Finicum died.
WJS
Arresting Ryan Payne is the most significant aspect of this incident. He was the self-styled “sniper” who was instrumental in setting up the military response to the Bundy Ranch standoff. He has lied about being a Ranger, but he did have actual military training and experience. He was no Track Palin, though.
Speaking of, how come Palin hasn’t bailed out her son so he can go join the militia in Oregon? These guys are running out of people who can unbox and count dildos.
trollhattan
@Snarki, child of Loki:
I think the breaking point will be when the hair conditioner runs out.
The Oregon Live photo gallery haves a clue as to the weight of the federal response. Nothing says “Freedom” quite like a parked Blackhawk. Optics, schmoptics, I say press the thumb down on these asshats until they squeal. Then arrest the rest of the lot and keep their public defenders busy for the next two decades.
Moochers.
schrodinger's cat
How many people are in the refuge?
Adam L Silverman
@TaMara (BHF): Its not just that. It just shows that if there is any real risk to themselves, these guys and gals won’t back up their tough talk. When they can bully they’re good. When they get real pushback, they slink away.
trollhattan
@Felonius Monk:
And slaw is delicious.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Felonius Monk: Cabbages are also insulted by the comparison.
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Aren’t there still shelves full of supplies sent by supporters? Beyond the bags of dicks, of course.
Germy
from Mayer’s NewYorker piece on the Kochs:
Frank Wilhoit
“…sealed the refuge off…”
Is there, really, a perimeter (as should have been established within the first few hours) ? If you think you have found a source directly quoting FBI or other LE as stating that there is, in fact, an effective perimeter, please cite their exact words. I must doubt. No competence, nor any grasp of the gravity of the situation, has been shown as yet, and that includes last night. As they weren’t pulled out within the first twelve hours, nothing matters after that: they won, 100%.
As for last night, it is like someone trying to start a dead car, getting it once to turn half over and going wild with glee — I almost got it! I almost got it! No, it is too late and there is nothing to work with. There is no juice in the battery and no fuel in the tank. The institutions have collapsed and nothing can revive them. They might be replaced, but that would require perfect national unanimity and a supreme dead-weight lift, and it is impossible to imagine either of those things.
trollhattan
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
I’m guessing they have tons of past use-by date TSP and freeze-dried food cleared out of Mormon pantries from across the Great Basin region. If that doesn’t wear them down, nothing can.
WarMunchkin
Just to be an annoyingly pedantic asshole, I still don’t advocate use of deadly force against someone “charging” at an LEO, unless there’s a demonstrably high risk of suicide bombing.
Of course I think the “hands up” narrative is bunk, but I’m always personally inclined to not believe law enforcement should shoot people unless they’re under imminent or active use of deadly force, which “charging” is not.
We don’t know details, but I just wanted to preemptively escape the trap of thinking it’s okay for law enforcement to shoot the “right” people.
schrodinger's cat
@Germy: Aren’t behind ALEC, the think tank behind voter disenfranchisement and show your papers law in Arizona?
Germy
@schrodinger’s cat: They’re behind everything
They pollute inner-city neighborhoods with coal waste, and then spend millions on public relations, rather than spending anything to clean it up.
A Ghost To Most
Boy, those PPN folks are sure looking like total badasses
schrodinger's cat
@Germy: They are big funders of PBS too.
trollhattan
@Frank Wilhoit:
Uh, wut?
schrodinger's cat
@trollhattan: Yeah right that made even less sense than mclaren
Germy
@schrodinger’s cat: Unless a PBS documentary has anything to say about pollution. or global warming, or their own misdeeds.
There’s a reason the reboot of Cosmos wasn’t on PBS.
They wanted to talk about lead poisoning, and the Kochs weren’t having it.
Tim C.
@catclub: The explanation has been that they can’t cut off the power without physically severing the line, and they can’t do that because the point where the individual line spurs off from the road is far far too close to armed idiots in the refuge.
I think you could also make the argument that letting them have heat gives them a reason not to start burning stuff.
raven
@WarMunchkin: bullshit
scav
@WarMunchkin: Ideally, no, but let’s not pretend there isn’t a slightly superior virtue in at least the LEOs being consistently one way or the other. The Bank Error in Your Favor dice generally seem to be loaded.
NonyNony
@WarMunchkin:
What if he’s charging with a gun or a knife in his hand rather than a suicide bomb? It’s pretty much the same thing as far as the guy he’s charging at would be concerned.
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: I realize its the equipment they have, but you’d think they’d paint the blackhawks something other than black these days.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: I’ve seen estimates of about 20. I hope they got that anti-Semitic IT guy from OH some xanax or something. He was coming apart at the seams on youtube last night. Apparently Finicum’s spirit had come to him in a vision.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@WarMunchkin: Charging while wielding a firearm is an entirely different thing. I don’t think any of us are comfortable with shooting the “right kind of people” without cause.
Or, as raven noted, bullshit.
NonyNony
@Adam L Silverman: Man I would have given money to have that helicopter painted pink before it showed up there. Just seeing if the conspiracy mindset shifted from “black helicopters” to “pink helicopters” would have been worth the hundreds of dollars to get it done. Maybe we could have had a kickstarter or something…
JPL
Supposedly this is a live feed of the assholes building a trench. Youtube If they make it out alive, I assume they will also be charged with theft of government equipment.
NonyNony
@Adam L Silverman:
Oh Jeebus – I didn’t hear about this one. What has Ohio and/or IT done this time?
Adam L Silverman
@Frank Wilhoit: While the link is in the original post, if you go here, there are photos of where they’re set up:
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_7_occupants_he.html#incart_article_small
Also, they’ve closed off 41 miles off highway:
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/56_miles_of_highway_closed_bet.html#incart_maj-story-1
RareSanity
@Frank Wilhoit:
wat?!?!
This situation is by far more than just a tactical one, there are gigantic political implications with ANY actions taken on the part of the government.
I’m not usually one to make statements like the one I’m about to make, but I think that the authorities have handled the situation surprisingly well. They took a hands off initial approach, as not to incite militia kooks both within and without the refuge. They allowed the nuts at the refuge to put their idiocy on display for almost three weeks…and when they felt the time was right, they made a successful move.
You know how I know that the handling of the situation was really good?
When news came out that Finicum had been killed by a federal agent, it was the nuts themselves that came out to debunk the stories from people that were trying to incite a violent response, and said that the shooting was absolutely justified.
There’s no way that an immediate, overpowering, police presence would have achieved similar goals.
schrodinger's cat
@Adam L Silverman: $anax? Fluffy Unicorn? BJ commenters have better handles than that/
Gindy51
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Mine is provided by a co-op and trust me, they can cut me off anytime I don’t pay my bill. I call BS on that excuse.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: Yes, one of ALEC’s primary funding sources is the Koch network.
schrodinger's cat
Halp I is in moderation!
Corner Stone
@WarMunchkin:
Apologies, but I am not clear on what your alternative proposal is to a known threat, most likely accurately described as armed and dangerous, charging someone?
WarMunchkin
@NonyNony: Yeah that’s what I meant by imminent use of deadly force.
@Corner Stone: To be clear, I was assuming unarmed. Again, no details yet, but I reflexively don’t believe LEOs until there’s proof of justified force.
raven
@RareSanity: Hey man.
Germy
meanwhile…
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/01/fox-statement-taunting-trump-was-all-roger-ailes.html#
Adam L Silverman
@NonyNony: They brought some whacked out IT/hacker type to come in and try to get into the computers. He’s from Ohio, is supposedly a Messianic Jew (Jews for Jesus), and hates actual Jews. His name is David Fry and he’s a nut!
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregon-militant-website-creator-david-fry-im-not-isis/
RareSanity
@raven:
Hey raven!
Whatcha been up to you ole hound? :-)
Corner Stone
@WarMunchkin: Ok, fine. What is your proposal for a charging individual who has not displayed any weapons as yet?
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: Xanax, as in the prescription drug for anxiety. Its not his name. His name is David Fry:
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregon-militant-website-creator-david-fry-im-not-isis/
Helen
@Adam L Silverman:
Just like Trump.
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman: @NonyNony:
Oh lord, what I wouldn’t give to see them rounded up and hauled off in Hello Kitty helis.
Betty Cracker
Does anyone else find it…interesting that the fellow travelers in the videos came out so quickly to douse the Finicum martyrdom shrine?
RareSanity
@WarMunchkin:
So eyewitness reports, posted to FB by group members themselves , are not sufficient proof for you?
Hell…the group members starting posting their videos before law enforcement even had a press release.
Corner Stone
@Betty Cracker: They will be schmeared as undercover agents/plants for the FBI. And not to go too CT on you, but there may actually be some truth to a plant or two in the refuge, IMO.
trollhattan
@Germy:
I just lurrrve watching the gears fly off the machinery, but to crib an album title “Crisis, what crisis?” A coalmine collapse is a crisis, a television show is a planning challenge.
raven
@RareSanity: Tryin to keep my head when all about me are losing . . .
and waiting to see what Kirby does. I’m sure you saw that he’s asking for a sellout for the spring game. Go Big I guess!
Peale
@Betty Cracker: Yep.
RareSanity
@Adam L Silverman:
is supposedly a Messianic Jew (Jews for Jesus)
Ummm…aren’t those people just called Christians?
Everybody wants to be a special snowflake these days.
Adam L Silverman
@Germy: Looks like they’re going to eat themselves via infighting over who’s the most important anchor, reporter, personality, executive. Couldn’t happen to a nicer group of people.
chopper
@WarMunchkin:
why would this guy be unarmed? these guys take their guns to the bathroom to go take a dump.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
It’s almost as though the trust isn’t there amongst the Patriots.
WarMunchkin
@Corner Stone: In that situation, nonlethal force. Tear gas, sonic guns, riot dispersal, beanbag gun, water cannon. I’d say it escalates to lethal force (tasers, guns, explosives) when the person draws arms or is assessed to carry explosives or suicide vests.
I just want the burden of proof of use of force to be on the user of force. It makes me deeply uncomfortable to see “he got what he deserved” as a first reaction.
@RareSanity: I watched the three videos on this post. Didn’t say that they were in the second vehicle and that the other car was ahead a bit. I haven’t seen the Facebook posts.
@chopper: I mean the standard of proof is lifted when you say that the perp drew his weapon or something, but the reports are that he “charged”, and that could mean different things.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Betty Cracker: Nope. They’re all going to jail, they know it, there’s only one way to knock that sentence down and right now they are jockeying to see who can cooperate with the Feds the most.
BR
@Germy:
This is all just a ratings stunt by both Trump and Fox. (That’s not to say that they’re coordinating it, but that they both know that stirring up a “fight” is good for ratings.) I really don’t know why anyone, especially other networks, report it all breathlessly or why anyone cares.
trollhattan
@chopper:
No kidding. If ever there were a group to which “Presumed armed and dangerous” applies, it’s this one. Guns are as mandatory as pants.
raven
@WarMunchkin: I wis you’d been between that asshole and the FBI.
RareSanity
@raven:
Langston Hughes qoute, now there’s something you don’t see often in the comment section.
I think the Dawgs picked a winner in Smart, and I think that Miami made a smart move hiring Richt. He seems to be a better fit for football in the ACC, where it’s a bit more…polite, shall we say. haha
Germy
@BR: i think we’re seeing the End of Ailes.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: No. They were small fry and the Feds likely gave them a very good talking to, explaining in detail what would happen if they fomented further violence as a result. And by releasing them quickly it also sets them up for accusations of being snitches and rats. They’ve reversed the Gray Zone corruption. The space within which these folks exist is now being poisoned with paranoia. The questions of who is and isn’t an informant or trustworthy or sold them out will start to fly fast. Cavalier is going to be the target of some of this: stolen valor, desertion to home, arrest, then quick return just days before this mess. Ryan Payne has long been a target of other of these folks suspicions. The guy that runs Sipsey Street Irregulars, a militia leader in his own right (own mind), has been after him for a long time as a rat and snitch.
schrodinger's cat
@Adam L Silverman: BTW what do you think of the Thinking Housewife, now she has completely gone off her rocker and is blaming debt and Jewish people for everything from ISIS to ads featuring gay couples on TV.
Origuy
So if a financial connection can be made between the Kochs and these clowns, isn’t there something they can be charged with? If they were sending money to ISIS or the Taliban, there would be.
Gravenstone
@Frank Wilhoit: What are you babbling about? The events of last night look from this vantage point to have been an intentional decapitation strike against the leadership of the cretins at Malheur. The Feds waited until they were 1) massed, 2) separated from the rest of their group and off the occupied property. The fact they also arrested other key players in the same time frame points to this being a coordinated action. And the imposition of a physical perimeter (perhaps not encircling the facility in razor wire, but taking control of all points of transit) indicate that the Feds are now increasing the pressure on the remaining occupiers. Bloodshed is thus far minimized. Hopefully that continues to be the case.
AnotherBruce
@WarMunchkin: So the police are supposed to shoot Finicum in the right shoulder? What if they miss and a dead cop is the result? I’ve never had the pleasure of someone charging me with a firearm, and I’m guessing that neither have you. But I’m pretty sure in that situation you would want to make sure that the person charging is as dead as possible.
Adam L Silverman
live link to the press conference just put up as an update. Right now they’re doing mic checks.
gwangung
@Gindy51: You’ve examined the equipment out there, hm?
Germy
@schrodinger’s cat: Journalists??? I thought they were ratfuckers.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: Huh? Who is the Thinking Housewife?
Germy
@Origuy: Good point. According to Jane Mayer, the Kochs contributed money to this “protest”
Germy
@Adam L Silverman: see my link above
schrodinger's cat
@Germy: She was always vile, now she has become nuttier than a fruit cake.
Robin G.
@WarMunchkin: Unarmed, I agree. But you have to take context into consideration. These asshats have done nothing but talk about revolution while stroking their
dicksguns from the beginning. The LEO would be, in my mind, completely justified in assuming he was packing.Keith G
@RareSanity: Yep, the law enforcement agencies gave the perpetrators a lot of room. They were able to come and go as they please probably beginning to assume the characteristics of day campers at some church social. Then whenever the leadership were in one place and removed from the pack they got scooped up.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Gindy51: But would they have to come within gunshot range of you to do it?
That is the problem, as I understand it. Not that it can’t be done at all, but that it can’t be done without getting the linesmen shot.
Adam L Silverman
@Germy: I did, still doesn’t tell me who’s website it is.
Gravenstone
@Gindy51: You probably don’t have a sniper post watching the nearest junction box to prevent them from cutting you off. The concern (oft repeated) is that these clowns do.
Villago Delenda Est
Not one of these “eyewitnesses” is credible.
Germy
@Robin G.: When are they ever unarmed? As Chopper said, these guys carry even in the bathroom.
raven
@RareSanity: Kipling too!
I hope the Hokies made a good hire!
WarMunchkin
@AnotherBruce: No – if they needed to shoot, I don’t believe they should be trying to somehow aim non lethally. I agree that if you’re going to shoot, you make the other person as dead as possible. My objection was as to what happened before that.
Hey, this press conference may reveal that this guy charged with a weapon drawn, and then all my objections melt away completely.
@Robin G.: Yeah, I’m coming around to it I guess. I’ve just been personally shell shocked enough by LEO use of force that it’s my primary instinct not to trust their judgement at the get-go.
Capt. Seaweed
Remember the Alamoo!
Villago Delenda Est
@AnotherBruce: Center of mass is where you aim. This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco.
SiubhanDuinne
@RareSanity:
Langston Hughes? I think you mean Rudyard Kipling.
Betty Cracker
@Adam L Silverman: Wow, circular firing squad at Fox News, potential circular firing squad among the militia loons — this is turning out to be a good day!
Villago Delenda Est
@Germy: They carry in their pants. But not what I carry in my pants. Well, at least nothing you can see with the naked eye, anyways.
schrodinger's cat
@Adam L Silverman: I stumbled upon her blog via Get off My Internets and it was like going down the rabbit hole into a bizzarro world. I find her useful as a barometer for the crazy.
ETA: Its run by Laura Wood and she is more Catholic than the pope.
Germy
@Adam L Silverman:
Adam L Silverman
@Robin G.: Here’s the training on this. And I’ve trained people on the empty hand/hand to hand side. The old rule was anyone who charges and is within 21 feet is an imminent and explicit threat to life and limb. The new rule is closer to 33 feet. Basically almost anyone can close that distance before a firearm arm or a less than lethal (when applied correctly) tool can be brought to bear. So the training is often, if you’re being rushed, force on force is authorized. The training for shot placement is usually center mass.
Here’s a couple of links:
https://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/
https://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/3468112-Shooting-center-mass-Shooting-to-kill-or-to-stop/
AnotherBruce
@WarMunchkin: It was at night, the police had every reason to believe the guy was armed with a firearm. Even if he wasn’t there’s probably not enough time to be sure of that. I didn’t want anybody to be killed either. But I’m damn glad it wasn’t an LEO who got killed.
raven
I remember the people here didn’t think the cops should have killed Christopher Dorner too.
The Red Pen
So one time I had to clear the raiders out of Revere Beach Station. As I’m going in, I shoot a flare in the air to get support from the Minutemen. Like one guy shows up and he’s killed in seconds. What’s the point of joining a militia if they’re useless in an actual firefight? From now on, it’s just me and Piper in power armor.
I’m sorry… aren’t we discussing video games?
Adam L Silverman
@Villago Delenda Est: Unless they’re wearing body armor. In which case the target shifts.
Villago Delenda Est
@RareSanity: My only regret is that they didn’t simultaneously launch a strike on the Bundy ranch in Nevada to confiscate the entire herd as a fraction of the amount Cliven owes the people of this country for using their assets and property to enrich himself.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: @Germy: Now I’m tracking. Thanks, I think.
Villago Delenda Est
@Adam L Silverman: Boom headshot?
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Probably a sign of some religion’s end times.
Adam L Silverman
@AnotherBruce: In a charging person scenario I’m more worried about a knife. Especially if its dark and I can’t see. In close a person with any modicum of competency can do a tremendous amount of damage with a knife.
Villago Delenda Est
@Adam L Silverman: What Daesh is all about. They have much more in common with our fundigelicals than either group dares to admit.
Adam L Silverman
@Villago Delenda Est: likely, but those are harder to make under stress. A larger target would be to shift below the body armor and shoot for the groin.
Benw
Yeesh, another RW plumber. Unblocking the drains of freedom!
goblue72
@NonyNony: In many European countries, police are specifically trained in de-escalation, non-violent responses to threats and avoiding reaching for their gun as the solution to every problem. That includes people with knives.
The prevalence of guns in the U.S. changes things somewhat. European police do not have to deal with the level of an armed populace as U.S. police do. (In this, as with many things American, our uncivilized barbarism shows) But still, a third of victims of police shootings are unarmed. Of those armed, a significant portion (not a majority, but a significant portion) were armed with a knife, not a gun.
trollhattan
@raven:
I thought he committed suicide after setting that cabin on fire? Or did it catch fire because of flash-bangs or whatevs?
In any case, the rain of bullets on those poor newspaper route women told us more about the quality of Southern Cal law enforcement than the actual handling of Dormer once he was found.
raven
@trollhattan:Police initially attempted to force Dorner out of the cabin by using tear gas and demanding over loudspeakers that he surrender. When Dorner did not respond, police used a demolition vehicle to knock down most walls of the building. They then shot pyrotechnic tear gas canisters into the cabin, unintentionally setting the cabin on fire. Such devices are nicknamed “burners”, as the heat generated by detonation often causes a fire. Shortly thereafter, a single gunshot from the cabin was heard.[80] As the fire continued, ammunition was exploding from within the cabin, making it dangerous for officials to try to put out the fire.[81] Law enforcement experts differ on whether using pyrotechnic devices to end the standoff, instead of waiting Dorner out, was justified.[80]
Keith G
FBI Special Agent in Charge Greg Bretzing is a cool customer. Does it seem as if he would suffer fools at all.
Howlin Wolfe
@Adam L Silverman: Then they wouldn’t be blackhawks, now would they? They’d be, I dunno, chartreusehawks or aquahawks, or sumpin’.
Betty Cracker
Also, this is mean, but this seems to be my day for saying mean things: After seeing the two Bundy clowns in the mug shot array in this post, I now know why they picked Ammon as the spokesmodel even though he’s dumber than a bag of toenail clippings. Yeesh!
BR
@goblue72:
What if we created, at the city level, an “elite” tier of police (give them some name that confers respect) — they are trained in non-escalation, etc. and are paid more (maybe $30-50k / year more) and they *do not* get any projectile weaponry (no firearm, taser, etc.).
I’ve been kicking this idea around, and think it could be started at the local level in progressive towns.
karen marie
I absolutely hate this redesign. The live link above is not a link but needs to be copy/pasted. Every time I try to do that and try to carefully just pick up the link address, it jumpscto cover the photo below it. This tedesign is complete bullshit. John Cole, you’ve been ripped off.
AnotherBruce
Sheriff Dave Ward is awesome.
karen marie
I absolutely hate this redesign. The live link above is not a link but needs to be copy/pasted. Every time I try to do that and try to carefully just pick up the link address, it jumps to cover the photo below it. This redesign is complete bullshit. John Cole, you’ve been ripped off.
schrodinger's cat
@karen marie: Back button still does not work.
goblue72
@Adam L Silverman: Those standards you cite appear to be American standards. Which are notably biased in favor of use of force.
Magically, they have knife in Europe. Yet, magically, police in Europe are trained in non-violent response to threats, and magically, wind up killing a lot less people than U.S. police do –
http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/uk-police-stop-someone-knife/
Less-lethal (i.e. knives) weapon holders make up roughly 20% of deadly force victims in the U.S. Yet those death exceed the total deadly force rate for many European countries – http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/american-cops-lethal_us_565cde59e4b079b2818b8870
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/nyregion/us-police-leaders-visiting-scotland-get-lessons-on-avoiding-deadly-force.html?_r=0
Our police are trained to escalate and kill – the exact opposite of what a civilized society does – http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/us/long-taught-to-use-force-police-warily-learn-to-de-escalate.html
Our standards on use of force are biased. They aren’t “scientific”. They are merely the result of the cultural biases of our policing sub-culture which bears closer resemblance to those of a Central American paramilitary than to the police of a 1st world, civilized society.
The Red Pen
@RareSanity:
Messianic Jews are Christians. There are a couple hundred thousand of them worldwide.
Jews for Jesus is a scam started by the Assemblies of God Church with the goal of finding Jewish kids in college and converting them to Christianity. They basically steal a lot of stuff from Messianic Judaism.
goblue72
Crap. Comment in moderation. Forgot to use the link button on some links.
raven
@karen marie: Go see the Chaplain and get your card punched.
Germy
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/nevada-gop-lawmaker-compares-slain-oregon-militant-lavoy-finicum-to-jesus-and-moses/
I guess I’m uninformed.
SiubhanDuinne
@karen marie:
@karen marie:
I had no problems cutting and pasting Adam’s link.
goblue72
@BR: As a pilot project to prove it works and then adopt it for everyone? Sure.
As the end result? Nope. There are many countries in the 1st world out there that prove that kind of policing works. In this, as in many things, the U.S. gets it wrong because we are a nation of ignoramuses and jackasses, ruled by an oligarchy that benefits from the populace living in fear of its own shadow, perfectly compliant with living in a police state.
WarMunchkin
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks for the links, that’s informative.
Randy P
@karen marie: I just typed it into another window (necessary because I’m viewing BJ and the other link on different devices). It’s not that complicated to type, no gobbledegook characters and nice and short.
goblue72
@Germy: She’s a certified gun nut. First issues on her website’s issues page is about how God intended us to have guns and ammo.
BR
@goblue72:
Oh, I agree — my point is that without an incentive structure there’s no way police in the U.S. are going to go for it. It has to be seen as a promotion.
Also, safeguards would need to be put into place, such as making sure that police who are “elite peacekeepers” (or whatever term) have to be partnered together, so they don’t just have their partner available with weapons.
Betty Cracker
@karen marie: What link are you referring to that’s not live?
ETA: Never mind — I figured out you meant the first one in the OP.
C.V. Danes
@Adam L Silverman: Government’s got the biggest guns, so the perps can only escalate so far.
C.V. Danes
@BR: shouldn’t that apply to all the police?
RareSanity
@raven:
@SiubhanDuinne:
Daggnabbit, you’re right…apparently I’m late for my afternoon caffeine fix.
NonyNony
@goblue72:
Shootings of unarmed suspects in this country are a huge problem – especially the unarmed shootings that don’t involve the suspect doing anything actually threatening (like the guy who was told by the cop to get his wallet and then got shot because he reached for … his wallet).
But if a cop shoots a guy charging at him/her with a knife, I’m not going to put that into the same category as shooting an unarmed suspect. It may be problematic, but the problem is that our cops have to carry guns in the first place because the suspects they deal with are likely to have guns. And if your gun is out you don’t have time to switch to a billy club or a taser once you realize that the guy charging at you is “only” holding a knife.
And shooting an unarmed suspect that is charging is in another category from shooting an unarmed suspect that is complying or running away. There’s a level where judgment calls need to come into play, which means our cops should bet getting a LOT more training and be of a much higher quality in the intellect department than their European counterparts. Of course that’s not how we roll in this country – we’d rather do it on the cheap and let a whole lot of guys who want a powertrip but will take less pay have the job instead.
WarMunchkin
@raven: I missed this comment. Go fuck yourself.
Dork
@Tim C.: Pretty sure these guys dont have nite vision goggles. Approach the electric pole/manhole at 2AM in the complete darkness and just cut the damn power line. Nobody’s shooting at each other in pitch blackness at 2AM.
BR
@C.V. Danes:
I think it should, but I think it’d have to be implemented in steps. The police today are not trained for it. So create an “elite” class within each department, and increase the elite class each year by a couple of percent. Require extremely high standards of both analytical and emotional intelligence to get those jobs. That way the force will slowly shift in the direction of non-violent methods. Once it’s something like 90% of the police force, then we’ll be at the right balance.
henqiguai
@WarMunchkin (#21):
Well, (stereotype alert) given how popular wraslin’ is with the rural folk of a certain skintone, I would suggest that some big dude popping out of a car, who had already declared that he would rather die than go to jail, and charging the police would constitute a clear and present danger to the LEO justifying the use of deadly force. Armed *or* unarmed.
JPL
I’m streaming Fry’s youtube… One person wants to bring his dogs to the gate so they are safe.
@Dork: Do we know whether or not they have flairs?
Roger Moore
@schrodinger’s cat:
ITYM more Catholic than the “pope”, since she’s nutty enough to claim that Francis isn’t actually the pope for some reason.
Iowa Old Lady
It’s amazing to me how many people seem to have been living in what appears to be a fairly small building. They must be sleeping wall to wall.
Corner Stone
@Dork: Sounds like a job for…Dork!
Betty Cracker
@JPL: Link? Also, they should leave the innocent dogs out of it!
Roger Moore
@Dork:
Do you want to bet somebody’s life on it? Because that’s what you’re doing if you send somebody out there to try without knowing for damn sure.
Mike G
@trollhattan:
Hey, cut the LAPD some slack, the women’s truck had the same number of wheels as the suspect’s truck. What are the odds? Target-lock herd animals.
Gravenstone
@schrodinger’s cat: Alain has said repeatedly that the Back functionality isn’t likely to be restored until the new chat system is implemented. That dead horse you’re beating no longer bears any flesh.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Iowa Old Lady: I think they’ve used multiple buildings that are at the refuge for bunkhouses.
Adam L Silverman
@goblue72: I never said they were scientific. And I linked to two articles/posts that had some good skepticism in regards to them. As for the 21 or 33 foot rule: I was trained and certified to do close quarters protection and personal security when I lived in Britain in the early 90s. One of the instructors was Lofty Wiseman:
http://www.loftywiseman.co.uk/loftys-biograpgy2/
http://www.truewayssurvival.com/john-lofty-wiseman-survival-instructor
Other instructors were retired law enforcement – both British and American.
We were specifically taught the 21 foot rule.
Again: I’m not saying its scientific, nor am I denying that it isn’t centered around American requirements or concerns. I’m just telling you what it is.
JPL
@Betty Cracker: link
JPL
@JPL: The video isn’t very exciting. Earlier there was trench digging and just a few seconds ago a helicopter flew over, so they took cover. It’s mostly just watching blue skies and clouds.
Adam L Silverman
@Dork: Its been reported by JJ McNabb that some do.
C.S.
Dang — I knew I hadn’t seen him much since Speed 2, but I had no idea how far he had fallen. And boy, he was so great in After Dark, My Sweet . . . Just sad.
Adam L Silverman
@Roger Moore: Is she a Society of Saint Pious type?
Gravenstone
@Dork: Most night vision doesn’t offer much in the way of stereoscopic vision or depth perception. If you’re expecting the linemen to be operating on high voltage lines without being able to see depth of field, I hope you’re not offended when they suggest you kindly fuck the fuck off.
WarMunchkin
@henqiguai: I guess the question I’d want to ask then is why even bother having nonlethal weapons? To subdue someone non-threatening but noncompliant, and that’s it?
Second question: Besides, isn’t all this the point to putting officers who discharge their weapons on administrative leave immediately and always?
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: Is there some reason he writes “biograpgy”? It’s in at least three places, so it’s not a typo, and elsewhere he references a “full biography,” so he knows how to spell.
goblue72
@NonyNony: As I noted above, outside of the “armed with a gun” category – European police have to deal with unarmed dudes charging at them or dudes armed with a knife charging at them. And yet, magically, they are able to deal with those situations while NOT shooting the suspect.
Roger Moore
@Adam L Silverman:
I don’t know, since I usually only check out the site when Schrodinger’s Cat mentions her latest craziness. She’s definitely loopy, though.
goblue72
@raven: @WarMunchkin: He’s a PTSD senior citizen who is regularly off his meds. Bear him no mind.
JPL
The helicopter seems to be just circling around.. One of the assholes just said don’t shoot to another militant. Sounds like good advice.
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: I have no idea. My guess is he spelled fine until he met me in 1994 and since then he’s had serious difficulties.
Calouste
@goblue72: If her god intended us to have guns and ammo, why is the earliest written formula for gunpowder not in her bible but in a Chinese manuscript from the 11th century? It’s not that complicated a formula.
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman:
I would love to see video of how people react when an adult of any size starts charging them from a dead stop 21 or so feet away. I want the licensing for selling wetwipes.
Adam L Silverman
@Calouste: Its something a bad cook would come up with, if I’m remembering my Chinese mythology correctly.
JPL
@Calouste: God loved them best. He gave them the magic formula.
CONGRATULATIONS!
My only regret in all this is that these fine patriots weren’t accorded the same police restraint and fire discipline extended to Michael Brown or Tamir Rice.
Oh well, baby steps.
Betty Cracker
@JPL: I get a “streamer stopped streaming” message, plus a running feed of commentary from lunatics. Think I’ll go check out a puppy cam instead!
Mnemosyne
@The Red Pen:
As I understand it, “Messianic Jews” are born-again Christians with Judaism Envy. They want an excuse to follow the Old Testament laws as translated to their KJV Bibles but don’t want to have to bother with actually learning Judaic law.
IOW, yet more conservative cosplaying.
JPL
@Betty Cracker: It just stopped.. You can hide the chat though. Were you able to watch any of it? What a desolate area.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Dork: Bet they do. You can buy the fucking things at Cabelas for well under a grand.
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: I would do this with my aikido students at the Army War College. Almost all of them were lieutenant colonels or colonels, including one retired colonel who used to teach boxing at the academy and is also a certified firearms instructor and trainer. Even when they knew I was coming, and remember I’m about 5’10 and 1/2/5’11, weigh about 265, and while agile for my size I’m not fast, I could close and be on them before they could really prepare. All of them have been through this training in combatives at different stages in their careers. And when you add in me yelling and screaming while doing it, it just further complicates it. And this was just me running across the mat and trying to grab their shoulders. Not swinging something at their heads or waving a knife around. I’ve been in close quarter situations where I’ve been charged by assailants. One had a lead pipe and the other a freshly sharpened axe. I’m largely here because of a most basic piece of my aikido training – thank you Messores Sensei – I’ve turning 180 degrees after dispensing with an attacker, placed the back of my head out of the downwards hack of the axe blade, thereby saving my life. Instead I took the haft on my left shoulder. three inches to the right/had I not turned, and I’d be dead today instead of typing this.
Mnemosyne
@goblue72:
European police have a pretty good confidence that the person charging at them doesn’t have a gun. That changes the danger calculation quite a bit.
goblue72
@Adam L Silverman: Seriously? That’s just too cute by half.
You responded to a comment that supported the shooting with your own comment that intimated quite clearly that you agreed, right down to posting links about how the distance at which “shoot first, ask questions later” was expanded, including reference to training to shoot to center mass. None of which was attended by anything calling it into question, whether it was culturally biased or what alternatives would be. And I read those links, and the whole tenor of both of them was that more aggressive use of force was “objectively” justified.
Again too cute by half.
goblue72
@Mnemosyne: As I have noted, European police deal with people with knives with widely differing results than American police. And both dealing with people who are clearly unarmed – with widely differing results. Your argument is weak in the context of reality that the American system of training and policing is just wrong.
trollhattan
@Mike G:
Heh. Remain amazed they survived, unscathed (except perhaps psychologically). Truck looked like Swiss cheese.
gelfling545
@Dork: Why would you think they would not have night vision goggles? Also, linemen do not work in the dark. That’s freaking high voltage stuff they’re working with. They use high powered work lights. Also to just cut the line & go would create a situation dangerous to innocent people & wild life. You can’t just leave the line laying there.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: OK. Since I’m not fluent in British, I thought there might be something more to it than your malign influence.
schrodinger's cat
@Adam L Silverman: Balloon Juice action hero! You could give Bal Narendra a run for his money!
*Bal Narendra (Bal = child) Someone came out with a hagiographic comic book with a young Narendra Modi as the hero and Twitterati in India has been having a field day with it ever since.
Soylent Green
This is far from over. We think the militias are on their way to Portland to demonstrate in front of my workplace and next door at the Justice Center where the Bundy gang is being held. I would expect them to be open-carrying.
This morning a Mount Hood National Forest employee was randomly assaulted by some yahoo.
Maybe later this week we (about 600 FS and BLM workers) will be told not to come to work.
henqiguai
@WarMunchkin (#160):
The ‘why have nonlethal weapons?’ was answered upstream. But basically, if you’re facing an unknown situation you would tend to have your most effective weapon available. If the situation suddenly turned less lethal, you really don’t have time to put away the Glock the pull the pepper spray. Real life don’t work that way (say’s the ex-armed security guard in a high-crime high-guns & violence area).
Administrative leave after a shooting is to take the officer off the streets while an investigation is carried out, assuming there’s not immediate determination that the officer is probably recklessly responsible. Or so I’ve been led to believe.
catclub
@Germy:
so is this guy calling this event with Trump the biggest PR crisis? or is there something else – that I never noticed?
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman:
I’d go with United Nations light blue, so the nuts can start screaming about the One World Government
Dork
@Roger Moore: What would be the point of shooting at the wire-cutting guy? If you miss him, you’re out of electricity, and likely the feds are ending this on account of the attempted murder. If you hit him, I’m pretty sure it’s game over anyways, as the Feds aren’t gunna let these guys hang out free after killing a man.
They’re all hat, no chaps. That’s been obvious for awhile. Or, you can let this go on for another 4 weeks.
JPL
@Soylent Green:That doesn’t sound good. Take care!
Steve in the ATL
@Dork:
Have you not caught on that these people are fucking nuts? What was the point of any of the stupid things they’ve done? If they were capable of logical analysis, they would understand the Constitution and not believe any of the stupid shit that they do.
Julie
@Soylent Green: Do you have a link to a story on the Mt Hood National Forest attack? I’m local and haven’t seen this today.
Soylent Green
@Betty Cracker: At the age of seven, Ryan Bundy was hit by a car that severed nerves in his face, permanently disfiguring him. I would think it inappropriate to comment on his looks, if that was your meaning.
Soylent Green
@Julie: Not on the news yet. Got it from my safety officer.
Roger Moore
@Dork:
What’s the point of occupying the wildlife refuge? Do they really think they’re going to get the government to change its policies, or to spark a revolution, by doing so? Apparently they do think that way, which ought to call their willingness to behave sanely into question. I certainly question sending somebody out there to risk their life cutting the power on the assumption that nutcases occupying the refuge make cost benefit analyses on the same basis I do.
Gin & Tonic
@Dork: So I’m the linesman for the local power co-op, and my boss says to me “I want you to go up that pole at 0200 in the pitch black and freezing cold and disconnect this feed; if you don’t electrocute yourself you may get shot and killed, but that’ll be great news for the FBI, which can then swoop in and arrest your murderers.” That’s a compelling argument.
Heliopause
Curious if any of the Prez candidates have been asked today about these latest developments.
raven
Hit the pole with a fucking LAW or whatever they have like that now. 3.5 rocket launcher!
Steve in the ATL
@Soylent Green:
Exactly. There are great reasons to mock the guy, but he gets a pass on the nerve damage. Let’s focus on his stupidity and ignorance.
Feudalism Now!
Why are we arguing past each other about the the Finicum shooting? The shooting will be analyzed and adjudicated (with the inherent bias/deference towards law enforcement) to death in the courts and public opinion. Adam provided some links toward the training that LEO have for addressing a charging suspect in direct response to a question. We can do a better job in the future with regards to use of lethal force, but we need to acknowledge where we are with the current assessment of threat protocols/training and change them where appropriate.
Just knowing some of the harassment of local law enforcement and the local populace, plus the vocal threats from the Y’allqueda folks, I can understand the LEO at the stop being far from neutral in threat assessment. Add in a car trying to avoid a road block and someone exiting a stuck vehicle towards said road block? There will be benefit of the doubt toward the officer/trooper.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Soylent Green: From what I recall reading, his head was actually run over, which suggests he’s quite fortunate to have survived it.
Your news from work is troubling, if not altogether unexpected. I suspect there is a good deal of simmering unrest among whackjobs across the US, some of whom are armed.
Betty Cracker
@Soylent Green: My bad — I thought that expression was on purpose.
raven
@Feudalism Now!: Because there are people here who will argue about any-fucking-thing.
D58826
@feebog: What did a bushel of cabbages ever do to you to assume that the patriots are that smart. :-)
Roger Moore
@raven:
The problem is that it isn’t just a pole going to the wildlife refuge; there are downstream customers who would be cut off from power if you do that. The best hope would be to string a new wire bypassing the one that currently feeds the refuge so they could cut it off without hurting the rest of their customers, but that’s going to cost a lot of money that the coop just doesn’t have. Unless somebody else is going to pay for it, that isn’t a real option.
Daniel'sBob
@Gravenstone: Odd. Back button is actually working for me.
scav
@Soylent Green: Ah, so that’s it. I was thinking brain tumor along the brain stem as that can lead to similar patterns of paralysis. Should have thought of other ways to damage those nerves.
east is east
@Soylent Green: Yes, the vehicle actually spun it’s wheel on his head. He may be an irresponsible jerk but his looks are off limits, IMHO.
Central Planning
@Germy:
Twice the dick of any other F&F contributor!
Julie
@Soylent Green: Interesting. Thank you, and stay safe!
Iowa Old Lady
@Soylent Green: Stay safe and let us know how things are going.
raven
@Roger Moore: Well that’s a horse of a different color!
Gian
@Germy:
If you fund a criminal take-over of federal property, aren’t you just as guilty as the guy who takes over the federal property?
No that I want a 3:00 a.m. no-knock warrant to go arrest the Kochs, but financing armed seizure of federal property ought to be a criminal charge
Andrey
@henqiguai:
Yes, that’s currently true.
One of the elements that underpins American policing philosophy – one that is considered axiomatic and unquestionable – is that the first priority of the police officer is their own safety. “Err on the side of caution” is interpreted as caution for their own survival.
This does not have to be true.
It is possible to envision a scenario in which the first priority of the police officer is to ensure the safety of the public – including whoever they’re dealing with. That means, among other things, always pulling your least lethal weapon first.
I don’t entertain any misconceptions that such a policy is going to happen in modern America. Even if the political and social will for such a policy existed (they don’t), there are other things that would have to change for this to work – most obviously, police officer pay might have to go up in order to ensure people are actually willing to take a job with a higher perceived risk. But I do believe it would be better. And we have evidence of a limited amount of such policies in other jurisdictions – notably, many European police officers are explicitly not equipped with guns even though they would probably be better able to ensure their own safety if they carried guns – and those policies appear to work, in the sense that police officers continue to exist and the result includes a much lower police-inflicted death count.
Gian
@raven: After Dorner murdered one of the deputies with the sniper rifle.
Mike in DC
The key to how long this lasts is how much food the militants have. If they are sending out messages about rationing within a few days, then it won’t last long. Even if they are stocked up, the perishables will run out in a few weeks, and canned food and MREs will get old quickly.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: Nah, I was running security at a charity event on the dune next to the 1st/18th green of the Old Course in St. Andrews. Every Spring they used (don’t know if they still do) to put up a huge marquee tent and rented it out for functions. In the spring of 1994 the St. Andrews University chapter of the Anthony Nolan Bone Marrow Trust rented it to host a disco/rave with the proceeds going to the charity to fund research. They asked me if I’d run the security, so I got a group of the bouncers I work with together, we agreed to work for a very cut rate, and away we went. A couple of hours in, and once the tent was at the 1,200 person capacity so we weren’t letting anyone in, two locals showed up and wanted to buy tickets. All tickets had sold, and you had to be a student or affiliated with the university to buy them anyway, and we were at capacity – so no on in, until someone left. They pissed and moaned and got a bit physical with my guys working the door. I was hanging around the door when about 20 to 30 minutes or so later they came back and came charging towards us swinging things. With the light there was no way to tell what they were swinging until they closed. I took the object the first one was swinging – turned out it was a lead pipe – with the middle of my arm meeting the middle of the pipe and then threw him. I then spun to clear my field of vision and see where the other attacker was and that’s when I took the axe haft over my left shoulder. I went down and threw a leg ride on the guy with the pipe – who dropped it when I threw him. I then proceeded to forearm the back of his neck repeatedly. At one point the guy with the axe got loose of my guys and came up and kneed me in the jaw. This, as you can imagined, annoyed me. So I grab his testicles and crushed one of them. When he collapsed to his knees in pain I then drove my right palm through his left super orbital ridge, breaking the ocular bone. As we were separating and trying to account for the weapons these two slunk away and were picked up by the local cops about two hours later. Once we gave a description the local constables knew exactly who the attackers were. As a result my favorite Scottish party game is: Axe, Axe, Who’s Got the Axe?
boatboy_srq
Is it just me, or does that array of mug shots not scream “Bears in the Woods”?
Adam L Silverman
@Roger Moore: They were trying to inspire others to do the same thing all over the US.
Frankensteinbeck
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
My regret is that Michael Brown and Tamir Rice didn’t get this level of restraint.
@Adam L Silverman:
Damn. Of all the shit I went through in my youth, nobody came at me with an axe. I’m glad you avoided it and lived, both for the inherent value of your life, and because you provide us a lot of useful expert information.
Adam L Silverman
@Central Planning: Well played!
Frankensteinbeck
@Adam L Silverman:
And being ignored for three weeks, then picked up at a road stop, is not OKC bombing inspiring drama. They wanted a siege, or better yet a guns-blazing assault on the property. Instead they look like weenies.
Adam L Silverman
@Frankensteinbeck: In Britain the real worry is bladed objects, not guns. The instructors at my certification course stressed that repeatedly for several days. And its not the big ones, a 1/2 inch blade is just as deadly as a machete. Maybe more because you won’t see it coming. The target of an edged weapon is skin. Humans, amazingly, are covered in skin. So your entire body is a target. Additionally, most of the important organs and blood vessels are within four inches of the surface of the body except among the most grossly or morbidly obese. And most people’s core will compress up to four inches under pressure. Knives are not something to take lightly.
schrodinger's cat
@Adam L Silverman: That’s kinda funny and scary at the same time, I have led a far sheltered life than you have.
schrodinger's cat
@boatboy_srq: What does Sully think? Has he opined on this stand-off?
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: When the adrenaline dump cleared my system about three hours later I must have had the shakes for 90 minutes. It started when I was on the phone with the duty officer at the US Consulate in Edinburgh detailing who I was, that I’d been attacked, that I was not under criminal jeopardy, but that I might need guidance later once the two attackers were prosecuted. Then I called and rambled to my Dad. This was all about 3 AM in Scotland, so about 10 or so when I rousted my Dad in Florida.
Frankensteinbeck
@Adam L Silverman:
I dissociate in violent situations (yes, my childhood was fucked up), and I understand very well how godawful miserable the adrenalin crash can be, even when you win. I based a character arc in a YA book on it, even. In hindsight, I’m not sure if that’s messed up, or something people need to know.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
Did I read right? Are the nuts still in the refuge really expecting retired SEALs to parachute in to save them?
MCA1
@Betty Cracker: That’s the secret brilliance in the FBI’s plan here. They let familiarity breed contempt. These guys are ignoramus pricks, each and every one of them, all suffering from massive Dunning-Krueger, inferiority complexes, and delusions of their own grandeur. I didn’t see it at the time, but of course if you let them hang out together in a shack for three weeks, every single person there will eventually think, of every other person there, “Gawd, that guy’s an insufferable asshole. I should be in charge here.” They can all get along from the comfort of their ranches over Facebook, exchanging missives about freedom and liberty and the governmental oppression of cheap grazing rights on public property, but put ’em in a room together for awhile, dealing with the inanity of who’s doing the dishes tonight and who gets the cot with the wobbly leg, and it’s no wonder they turn on each other. I wouldn’t doubt that they’re not even sad that Finicum’s dead.
trollhattan
@MCA1:
Great post. Bet they even insult one another’s guns, “That’s an awfully nice beginner’s rifle.”
JPL
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I saw that also. Earlier I was streaming Fry’s youtube live feed. The militants appear to be crazy.
@Adam L Silverman: Glad that you are still with us.
Iowa Old Lady
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Yes because retired SEALS are so awesome that they have planes and parachutes even after they retire and they totally sympathize with armed rebels taking over a bird sanctuary.
MaryRC
@schrodinger’s cat: You didn’t ask me but I think it all started when she became a sedevacantist. Once you start believing that the Pope is an impostor and there hasn’t been a “real” Pope since Pius XII, then you’re open to every other conspiracy that comes along and boy, is she ever. She has completely flipped out, not only is she an anti-Semite, she’s a 9/11 truther, a Sandy Hook truther and a Paris Massacre truther and I’m sure that being a Holocaust denier is next if it hasn’t already happened. Now she’s picked up some weird usury = homosexuality theory to explain why THERE ARE GAYS ON MY TV.
It’s not even fun to read her any more, she’s just too weird. Laurence Auster must be spinning in his grave (serve him right, too).
trollhattan
Awaiting Ted Cruz to issue the challenge: “Why does President Obama refuse to say ‘radical Mormon terrorism’?”
schrodinger's cat
@MaryRC: She is a Holocaust denier too IIRC.
lgerard
@NonyNony:
If you are going to paint the Helicopters pink you can’t forget the Hello Kitty decals
Roger Moore
@Adam L Silverman:
Yes, that’s true. It’s also unhinged, and it convinces me that they don’t share my view of the sane course of action in any given circumstances. I have no confidence at all that they’ll refuse to shoot somebody trying to shut off their power just because it will bring the feds down on them like a ton of bricks. I honestly believe there are a bunch of would-be martyrs there, and I would like to deny them the chance at martyrdom*.
*At least of the fatal variety. I wouldn’t mind if they think being sent to federal prison for a lengthy term counts as martyrdom.
Cermet
Been shot at once myself (luckily the bullet ricocheted off the top of a concrete Jersey barrier – the shot was shallow angle) and spent itself as it hit my car window (which din’t survive) so it didn’t reach me.) The shooter was in the Baltimore/DC area not to long ago and was a wacho. Made the mistake of shooting at the NSA building – their sensors nailed him almost immediately. Another time I was almost Chenied (a new noun? Not that I can spell, anyway) with a shotgun in a similar situation but was lucky there too.
Still, being nearly shot is not fun in retrospect, and makes one wonder why guns are so easy to get. So, understand your point Adam Silverman.
Cermet
@Cermet: Moderation? Really? Wow. Is it my story or just my being an ass to some people here?
Cermet
OK; it is me since my moderation question is in moderation as this will too. Could give me an email with a warning that I will be moderate so I know … .
Cermet
This is kinda fun … .
trollhattan
@Roger Moore:
Speaking of imprisoned “martyrs” I decided to check in on Terry Nichols. Still a bastard (shock).
MaryRC
@schrodinger’s cat: Not surprised. She believes Mossad was behind 9/11. She used to be just a little further out there than most ultra-conservative trad Catholics — women should give up their jobs to men and stay home, inter-racial marriages always fail, don’t let your kids play with kids who have gay parents – but now she’s gone over the edge. Which reminds me — there’s a Mr. Thinking Housewife, I’m sure, since she used to brag about how she packed a lunch for him when he went off to work every day. I wonder if he’s followed her to Crazytown or if he doesn’t share her wackier opinions. Don’t tell me there’s trouble in the Thinking Housewife lovenest.
Joel
@goblue72: Generally, I would agree. But European (and any other) police don’t typically find themselves in an armed standoff with militia/paramilitary groups.
schrodinger's cat
@MaryRC: She is so over the top these days it feels like performance art.
Soylent Green
Some of the guys still inside the refuge compound spent this morning using the refuge front-loader to erect a defensive berm. In their minds they will be making their last stand behind it. The funny part is that they live-streamed the work (and their faces) directly to YouTube, because what’s the point of armed insurrection if it doesn’t make you a celebrity? And why commit a crime if you don’t document it for the jury? Clearly these guys are not shooting with a full clip.
dr. bloor
@Soylent Green: You’re just not ready to embrace their heroism and take in the wisdom of their words. But you will.
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Just wait.
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No, really, you will.
Adam L Silverman
@Frankensteinbeck: You write what you know.
Adam L Silverman
@MaryRC: Yep, she’s a Society of Pope Pious person.
Adam L Silverman
@Cermet: Those are both too close for comfort.
Aleta
I understand that these folks are delusional in all kinds of ways and degrees, from cult-like to sociopathic to flowering mental illnesses, some psychotic breaks. But I still have to say it’s stunning to see parents who think they are righteous, choosing death or jail over being there for their children’s lives. Acting out Christian rituals at the refuge while causing their children left at home so much trauma.
On top of that, they say they are doing it for their children.
Finicum talked about the foster kids who’d been subjected to his control as just another resource he had a right to use for his gain. (And likely he believed that about children in general, and I’d bet women in general, and the lesser men at the refuge.)
And now eyewitness accounts of Finicum acting with no care for the life of an 18 year old girl singer in the back or the lives of his close friends. A real charismatic guy; people say how great it was to be around him; photogenic to the press; a snazzy dresser; and a cold, cold, cold man.
No care for consequences to any child or community or piece of land in his equation. Since he chose to die, I think I can forgive myself for being glad that he has.
mclaren
Is it just me? Or do these guys all look like the Kryptonian criminals from Superman II, the B-player walk-ons under General Zod?
Ruckus
@Cermet:
Been shot at 4 times. None in combat. One was someone was actually shooting at me the other 3 were “accidents,” one that came within less than an inch of blowing the top of my head off with a .357 magnum hollow point. The one where I was actually shot at was in a bad neighborhood when I’d missed the last bus and had to be back on base. I didn’t know it was a bad neighborhood till bullets started flying. I believe I set the 440 or possibly the 880 world record that evening.
Betsy
@chopper: He also swore he’d never be taken alive.
Prescott Cactus
@Soylent Green: @scav: @scav:
I thought a stroke. . .