At last night’s press conference SAC Bretzing stated that the shooting investigation into the death of LaVoy Finicum would be conducted by the Deschutes County Major Force Investigative Team*. The policies and procedures for how this will be conducted can be found in the Deschutes County Deadly Force Plan. I’ve saved the pdf at the link and it is below for your convenience:
deschutes_county_deadly_force_plan
* At the link to the Deschutes County Sheriff’s Office this appears to be the “Tri-County Major Crimes Team” listed in the third and final paragraph on the page.
mike in dc
I was way into Deschutes County Deadly Force Plan, before they sold out and went commercial.
Adam L Silverman
@mike in dc: Oy…
Dork
Clearly pining for the “Most Manly Macho-Sounding Name Possible” award.
Soylent Green
Every day as I leave my workplace, I look up at the Portland Justice Center next door, where Ammon’s Ammosexuals are being held, and I give a wave and say “Goodnight, Ammon. Goodnight, Ryan. Goodnight, John Boy.” If the windows in my office could be opened, I could hit the holding cells on the lower floors with a Voodoo Donut.
Assuming that the the refuge occupation ends shortly, U.S. Magistrate Judge Stacie Beckerman is expected to rule early next week whether the 10 people being held here can post bail and be released.
I expect Ammon and Ryan to hole up in Daddy Cliven’s place in Nevada, where we won’t get them out without bringing in Janet Reno’s flamethrowing tanks.
Tim C.
@Dork: In order to say the name properly you need the theme to T.J. Hooker playing the background.
SFAW
The most interesting part of the Force Plan was the section that said “Kill ’em all, let God sort ’em out.”
Must be a fairly Red county
piratedan
in all fairness to Deschutes County, they DO make good beer there…..
SFAW
@Soylent Green:
Lotsa talk. Did you ever bring them the bag of salted dicks, as you promised? No, I didn’t think so.
hueyplong
Not really apropos, but at first glance, “Deschutes County Deadly Force Plan” sounds like the TV group Mia Wallace would have been in if that pilot hadn’t bombed.
debbie
A couple hours ago, I listened to a Bundy supporter blasting the OSP for not waiting until Finicum actually produced a weapon before shooting him. He insisted that if they didn’t have the ability to react quickly enough, then they were poor marksmen. These guys are delusional.
SFAW
@debbie:
Plus, he was white! Didn’t the OSP realize the rules are ever-so-slightly different?
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
Deschutes County Major Force Investigative Team and Lonely Hearts Club
randy khan
@debbie: I presume the same person was fine with the Tamir Rice shooting.
I am unhappy that they shot him because I would prefer that they’d caught him alive, but the context makes it obvious that this was a pretty dangerous situation for the officers involved – Bundy’s gang had tried to elude capture, they were known to be heavily armed (since that’s their schtick) and the guy reached twice into his jacket.
I’m sure, though, that his defenders will focus on the moments when he had his arms away from his body as proof the feds* killed him in cold blood.
*Yes, I know that he apparently was shot by a state police officer, but they won’t let facts get in the way of a good story.
Soylent Green
@debbie:He was surrendering, but had his arms out to his side to steady himself in the snow. He was unarmed, but the cops planted the nine millie in his pocket. The video was faked.
oz29
Some Idaho and Washington 3%ers are demanding the investigation be conducted by the Grant Co. Sheriff. Otherwise, any investigation is a cover-up.
debbie
@randy khan:
Yeah, Tamir went through my mind while I was listening. I’ve also noticed conspiracy theorists are also insisting it was the FBI, not the OSP, who shot him. And that the drone was creepy.
Lord Baldrick
Slowed video:
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/watch_weve_slowed_down_the_vid.
Suicide by cop.
Villago Delenda Est
@debbie: It’s hilarious that these assclowns advise those blah kids to freeze and not do anything, to include breathing, to avoid being shot, but now all the sudden the authorities are supposed to handle known assholes with firearms and who have bragged about their intent to use them with kid gloves.
trollhattan
@SFAW:
Not just white, Mormon. That’s like white^2.
O/T (and a big thanks for the continued coverage from this Westerner) NY Mag has just posted a roll-up of articles about the Short-Fingered Vulgarian. Have been plowing through it during lunch and am only to Mike Tyson. There a LOT of material and as a non-New Yorker I’m learning tons.
How the fundies pretzel themselves into supporting this guy I’ll clearly never understand. Oy.
WarMunchkin
@debbie: I don’t know why, but I get a mental image of OSHA writing up police departments all across the U.S. for not providing appropriate PPE for expected occupational hazards like gunfire when I think about this.
Semi-seriously, it’s 2016, where’s my police officers in iron man suits?
Tractarian
If you look at the video, Finicum is walking around with his hands half-raised, making furtive gestures with his arms. As if he couldn’t decide whether to surrender like his comrades or go down in a blaze of glory.
Well, I guess the decision was made for him.
Villago Delenda Est
@oz29: The Grant County sheriff is a sack of shit, just like the Douglas County Sheriff. Fuck him.
? Martin
@Lord Baldrick:
More likely he wasn’t afraid to be shot but figured he could out-draw the FBI because freedom.
SFAW
@Lord Baldrick:
It’s fake. I checked the kerning on it.
Soylent Green
@Tractarian: I think he didn’t leave the truck with the gun in his hand because he knew he would be shot immediately, kept his arms out thinking he could fool the troopers long enough to reach his gun and get a few shots off. Got rattled when the guy hiding behind him in the trees started yelling at him.
All these guys have seen too many John Wayne movies.
Roger Moore
@Soylent Green:
In a sane country, the answer would be “hell no!”. People with a history of armed occupation of government property and general disbelief in the power of the federal government should not be trusted to show up for their court dates. Sadly, I’m not at all confident that we live in a country sane enough to recognize that these guys can’t be trusted further than they can be thrown.
Jacel
“Deschutes County Major Force Investigative Team” is my favorite album by Pere Ubu.
Aleta
Not saying good or bad, but this plan is one example of a “well-regulated” force. Behavior of the OSP in the arrests was also “well-regulated.”
Stating the obvious, I know, but– the chaos and trash left behind at the MNWR, the driving every which way over the land, the threats that Bundy won’t take responsibility for, surely show that the militia in charge of the operation was not well-regulated and not able to control the volunteers they invited in. At the least they could prosecute themselves for not being well-regulated as their Constitution demands.
Roger Moore
@trollhattan:
They’re authoritarians first and whatever else second. The ones who are fundies have just chosen to follow a religious authority figure rather than a civil one. Once their religious authority figure says Trump is the man, they’ll happily follow.
Felonius Monk
I hope Finicum at least gets an Honorable Mention for the 2016 Darwin Awards.
oz29
@Villago Delenda Est: So I hear. I just appreciate the fact that when Black Lives Matter demand investigation by an outside agency, they are anti-cop, but when an anti-gov radical gets shot, the white supremacist ex-cops of the anti-gov gang think they should be allowed to dictate which agency investigates.
waysel
@Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again): Band.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Jacel: Their later work was never quite as good, was it?
scav
@SFAW: Nah, proper thing to do with Voodoo Donuts is clearly name them Ammon, Ryan, Brian, Shawna etc and then chew them. Slowly. Grind them to mashed bits, savoring every chomp and and the sweetness of it. Then lick your lips, smile, and reach for the next one.
dr. luba
@Felonius Monk: Nope, too late–he’s already reproduced. Darwin Awards are for people who improve the species by removing themselves from the breeding pool.
oklahomo
Thanks Adam! I have conspiracy-nut folks in my life so I like to read stuff like this so I can say, “No, you’re full of shit.”
Elizabelle
The late insurrectionist LaVoy Finicum brought his death upon himself.
Everyone else on that road survived.
I have wondered what the Bundy brothers and their co-idiots thought, seeing a confederate go down in blood. There was an aura of fantasy to their [lack of] planning and demands.
I kinda hope the judge keeps them all in jail through their court proceedings. They are not a crew that respects actual US law, and finding out one or two have taken it on the lam — do you want that kind of media circus? (Day 33, and Ammon Bundy is said to have been spotted in Clarkson County; local farmers and ranchers have been putting out food packages and water for him …. ack!)
Elizabelle
@Felonius Monk: And cover boy tribute and four-color spread in “Ranching Foster Kids” magazine.
benw
@Villago Delenda Est: @oz29: if you start from the premise that White = Good and Black = Bad, no matter what, then all sorts of seemingly hypocritical shit makes perfectly logical sense.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
Everything you need to understand about the death of LaVoy Finicum can be stated in two words:
Moron Lube.
The Republic, Blah Blah Blah...
@randy khan:
Or even a truly bad, dishonest one, for that matter…
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Soylent Green:
Hope they’re enjoying the pruno. I imagine those last beers that they had seem pretty good by comparison.
dr. bloor
@trollhattan:
They need to look into having their magic underwear made of Kevlar.
Haven’t had enough to drink yet today to start nosing around into the nut job responses to this. Trying to analyze how they assimilate these facts into their closed information system requires the assistance of a good Claret to avoid brain injury.
scav
@benw: Oh yeah, I mean, the fervent comparisons in the ChiTrib Cess Threads about how taking over federal wildlife refuges and threatening the government and government officials isn’t anything important or harming anyone, unlike interfering with shopping on some street on Chicago are my current favorites, but I’ve only be dabbling (in mental self-defense).
Gian
@oz29:
What is 3%er? I keep thinking it’s someone who’s not asshole enough to be in a 1% outlaw motorcycle gang
dr. bloor
@Tractarian: Yeah, suicide by cop is still most likely, but he was nutty enough to think that since the LE numbers were something less than what Butch and Sundance faced, he could take them all out.
Robert Sneddon
@Soylent Green: Finicum actually wrote a book-like list-of-words in which the Hero fast-draws his single-action revolver (he’s practiced fast-draw every week or so since he was a kid) and shoots several Federal agents dead before they can blink.
For such as he, Reality can be a bitch.
Patricia Kayden
Fleeing Terrorist reaches for gun. Cop shoots and kills him. End of story.
Just because the Terrorist is White doesn’t mean that the shooting was not justified. The people who are trying to turn Finicum into a martyr routinely cheer on cops who brutalize Black bodies.
Wonder how long the four Militants holed up in the bird sanctuary will drag this saga out. Perhaps this incident will scare other “Patriots” out of taking up arms against the government since their buddies in Oregon got nothing for their efforts.
Adam L Silverman
@Soylent Green: I don’t think they’ll be given bail. It could happen, but given that almost all of these folks have lengthy histories of not complying with previous summonses, warrants, notices to appear, or other governmental actions, holding them until trial is not unreasonable.
Adam L Silverman
@debbie: @SFAW: And if you asked said supporter when, should he have to respond with his own personal protection weapon, in a potential self defense scenario he would draw his weapon the answer would most likely be well before whoever he felt was a threat pointed a weapon at him.
Benw
@scav: you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
Aleta
Finicum reminded me of older people I knew who decided, years ago, that they would never let things like cancer or prison “control” their life, and would kill themselves before that happened.
One possibility: He left the car in order to die outside (by his own bullet or otherwise). He had his arms stretched out only until they cornered him. And at that point he intended to control the end of his life by taking an action, intending to either kill himself before they arrested him, or let them kill him.
Perhaps in his mind he was choosing to die “free.” He was not so free, but he was
still in control, and he died in the outdoors not his car.
Important to remember that he was willing to sacrifice the lives of an innocent 18 year old girl and those of his friends, in order to get his way. That does not describe a decent caring family man, despite how he’s been described in the press.
I think it’s possible he had been facing the end of his life no matter what. His photos and behavior reminded me of relatives who know their life is close to ending.
I don’t consider him admirable n any way, just a lethal control freak who could not modulate for any reason.
Ammon Bundy is the one most at fault for this guy dying as he did. Not that he will take any responsibility of course.
Keith G
@piratedan:
And just as I got home a few moments ago, I poured a Deschutes Black Butte Porter. I has been my favorite beverage of the winter.
Adam L Silverman
@Lord Baldrick: I just watched that. At no time were his arms/hands over his head in a surrendering manner. The arm motions to the side are him either pointing at one of the law enforcement officers or having his left arm out of the way in order to cross draw his pistol from within the left inside pocket of his coat. It’ll be interesting to see and especially hear the dash cam video of what he was yelling at the cops.
Ruckus
@Aleta:
Not that he will take any responsibility of course.
Pretty sure they don’t actually understand the word or the concept. They think they do but it is obvious that their understanding lacks context, reality, other humans, etc, etc, etc.
Mai.naem.mobile
The judge better not let these morons out on bail. Anybody who dies from these morons moving on to some other federal land stand off will be on this judge’s head. Fvck ’em. They made their decisions three weeks ago.
Frankensteinbeck
@Roger Moore:
They’re haters first, authoritarians second, and everything else after. Trump does a fine job of giving evangelicals validation for their hate. They did have to support Ben Carson for awhile first, so that everyone would know they’re not racist and would totally vote for a black man.
@Aleta:
I think that was ruled out forever when he said foster kids were his primary source of income.
Adam L Silverman
@? Martin: The general belief, found in comment sections all over firearm websites, is that civilian gun owners are far more proficient with firearms that most law enforcement officers. The claims are based on the commenters own range time – that they put X number of rounds down range each month, doing Y type of drills, whereas the average cop shoots just enough to qualify each year. So Finicum thinking that 1) he could out shoot these guys and 2) do so even though he had yet to draw and they were already aiming at him, because of 3) they would most likely miss is not surprising.
dr. bloor
JJ McNab retweeting a Pacific Patriot Network Call to Action. Apparently they’re going to PEACEFULLY escort the FBI out of the county and remove everybody from county level offices they don’t like. It goes without saying that SAC Bretzing and the OSP guys who shot Finicum are in double-secret probation trouble.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
Could be another beautiful trolling opportunity on the part of the feds. Let the nutters squeal loudly about his arms being up and not a threat, and how he was assassinated due to being a patriot (I’ve already seen some of that on my feed). Then drop the next round of dashcam and body video, discrediting the nutter messengers in the eyes of regular folks and the nutter-curious.
Adam L Silverman
@dr. bloor: ask and ye shall receive:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/01/daniel-zimmerman/video-purports-to-show-shooting-of-lavoy-fincum/#comment-2464750
And yes, I put a comment in at the bottom of the thread about 3 PM.
bin Lurkin'
Off topic but interesting..
Top secret emails found on Clinton’s home server
Adam L Silverman
@Gian: Its one of the militia groups. Its based on the myth that only 3% of the colonists actually took up arms against the British during the Revolutionary War. Hence the name III%er. Why they prefer the Roman numeral, I have no idea.
Keith G
@Adam L Silverman: I read on either Zaite’s or McNabb’s Twitter feed that there would be no bail..BUT..that might have been a reporting of what the “system” was expecting and not the report of an actual decision by a magistrate.
So many Tweets. Things get foggy.
Hungry Joe
I’m always, ALWAYS in favor of LEOs using the least possible force to control a situation. In this case even I have to admit that the least possible force was shooting the guy.
Imagine that you’re one of the policemen standing in the snow, and this armed, self-confessed “They’ll-never-take-me-alive!” wacko runs the first stop, tries to plow his way around a second, leaps out of the car, ignores shouted commands, and reaches for his waistband. Do I shoot? Hell, yes, I shoot.
dr. bloor
@Adam L Silverman: I’M NOT DRINKING YET, DAMMIT.
Adam L Silverman
@Aleta: Pictures of him show him with a shoulder holster. The left arm akimbo posture makes sense for someone who is used to drawing cross body from a should holster. My guess is he switched to pocket carry for the car ride and part of the reason he couldn’t get the draw off was that he kept reaching under his arm pit and his gun was in the inside left pocket. Defeated by overtraining and muscle memory.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Adam L Silverman: the get confused about which way the round parts are supposed to go on a 3?
@bin Lurkin’: the Chicago Tribune? Did Colonel McCormick reach out from behind the grave to purple up that prose? From what I’ve read those emails were classified after the fact
Adam L Silverman
@dr. bloor: I put that up as an update here last night.
Soylent Green
Adam, I’m wondering what the legal framework is to hand the investigation to the more populous counties of central Oregon. The shooting occurred on Dave Ward’s turf, but I could see him declining that responsibility because he lacks the staff to conduct it and because the nutjobs will be threatening his safety. Can counties move these tasks around freely depending on who has the manpower, regardless of the jurisdiction?
Adam L Silverman
@Keith G: Zaite’s and also in his reporting at OregonLive. They were denied bail and held over until the next hearing, which is, I think, sometime this afternoon local time. I could be wrong on that – it might be next week. Either way I expect the US Attorney to make a strong case for remand until trial.
Adam L Silverman
@dr. bloor: I just gave you an excuse to begin early.
Frankensteinbeck
@Hungry Joe:
Yeah. I’m not happy with this guy’s death. I always wonder what could have been done better to prevent a policeman killing a suspect. Damned if I can think of anything this time, and unlike the minority slayings we’ve had lately, I wouldn’t give the cop any grief about it.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I only know one set of hand type emojis. Here’s one example:
( . ) ( . )
So I an see why that would be confusing…
Mike in NC
LaVoy Finicum should be the name of a minor character on Game of Thrones.
lgerard
Think of all the Texas schoolbooks that now have to be rewritten in order to properly acknowledge the contributions of LaVoy Finicum.
Probably have to dump someone like Lincoln in order to make room for him.
Felonius Monk
In all the pictures I’ve seen of Finicum he looks very gaunt. Contrasted to the rest of these bozos who all look well-fed on steak and beer. I’m wondering if perhaps Finicum had a terminal illness and this was his way out. I’m assuming there will be an autopsy, so maybe we will know.
oz29
@Gian: Another bunch of RW loons with guns. You may remember them as the armed buffoons sitting in lawn chairs in front of military recruiting offices this summer (’cause the Marine Corps is not capable of defending itself.) The name refers to their belief that only 3% of American colonists were patriotic and manly enough to take up arms during the Revolution.
Or see Adam’s def. I don’t know why they insist on the Roman numerals either. I’m too lazy for two extra keystrokes.
Adam L Silverman
@Soylent Green: My guess is they worked an SOP out ahead of time as to what would happen if there was a shooting as to who would do the investigation to determine if it was lawful or unlawful and requiring referral to a prosecutor. How they settled on Deschutes County, I don’t know. I do know you don’t want the agencies of the folks involved in a task force investigating themselves.
Felonius Monk
@Mike in NC: LaVoy Finicum is the name of a minor character in the Game of America.
Aleta
@Frankensteinbeck:
Yeah, he was quite clear that fostered children were just another natural resource for him to exploit. But no need for him to actually be there to carry out his commitment to their well being. Put their lives first, while finding a way to work for his cause at home ? Not how it’s done.
I’m just so pissed about the articles about his impressive fatherliness and dedication to others. These articles came out so fast that I question where they really came from.
a different chris
@Adam L Silverman: Adam, any thoughts on when Ryan Bundy (I’m assuming it was Ryan, based on the timeline) exited the truck, with a fking pistol in his right hand? Took a few steps toward the rear of the truck, paused like he thought ‘you know, this ain’t very smart’, and then tossed the gun on the ground?
These guys really are complete morons. Who the hell, in a situation like that, gets out of the truck holding a gun?
D58826
@debbie: ‘Shoot first and don’t ask no dumb questions later’ only applies to our darker skinned citizens. White privilege requires giving what must be a ‘good guy with a gun’ (is there any other kind if he is white) the first shot.
Iowa Old Lady
@a different chris: Wasn’t he also wounded? When did that happen?
Elizabelle
@Aleta:
Interesting point. He was a gaunt man, although slim all his life (from photos), and could the sunburn have also been a chemo side effect?
Wonder if he felt he’d failed at life, in some measure. Foster kids payments were keeping the ranch afloat, not his prowess there (although ranching sounds like a tough occupation, financially).
Legend in his own mind type. And selfish, although perhaps his family would rather see him dead because of his “passions” than enduring a long incarceration and bankrupting legal bills.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Adam L Silverman:
That’s okay; they don’t either.
bin Lurkin'
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Absolutely classic ad hominem, kudos.
Patricia Kayden
OT: Does Donald Trump improve with a British accent? Not really but I thought these videos were pretty funny.
http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/01/29/peter-serafinowicz-dubbed-donald-trump-speech-cockney-accent-hilarious/
Roger Moore
@dr. bloor:
Spectra. It’s the right color and has better ballistic properties.
debbie
@Adam L Silverman:
Funny you say this. In an NPR interview this morning with an Iowa Republican family (down to the preteen daughter sporting a Trump cap), the father ranted on about Obama wanting to take his guns away. They live in a very rural area and need protection. As an example, he talked about three guys standing at the end of his driveway one night. Gun in hand, he opened his door and asked them what they wanted. They wanted, they said, to hunt raccoons on his property. He said no, and they left. He went on to say they just as easily could have been meth heads (clearly more frightening in his eyes).
Odds are he’s more likely to have a run in with goofy hunters, but it’s the specter of meth heads that has him in fear. And you know he wouldn’t wait for someone to produce a weapon before wildly firing his own.
PIGL
@trollhattan: it’s not that fundies love Jesus so much as that they hate blacks, Browns and hippies even more.
Soylent Green
Oregon standoff holdouts now want pardons for all involved
Hello, FBI? I will stop robbing this bank if you promise to go away. But first, could you help me carry these bags of money to my car?
Ridnik Chrome
@Jacel: That’s the one with “The Final Solution” on it, right?
Peale
@oz29: Yep. And they get to choose which agency investigates. How quaint. If I am ever audited on my income taxes, I would prefer that audit be conducted by the French Department of Mines.
Peale
@Soylent Green: I’ll agree to the pardons if they allow us to hold them until trial. I say hold the trial in 2030, at which time we’ll find them guilty and then immediately pardon them.
Sounds fair to me.
What they want, of course, is to not be charged. But they used pardon, so I’m assuming that we need to convict them of something first.
Roger Moore
@Soylent Green:
AFAIK there are frequently special rules for officer-involved shootings that require other departments to do the investigation. If any of the local sheriffs’ departments were involved at all (e.g. setting up the roadblocks) they might be disqualified from participating in the investigation as potentially tainted.
Benw
@lgerard: Lincoln and LaVoy. One is one of the greatest champions of freedom in the history of America. The other is Abraham Lincoln.
Aleta
@Adam L Silverman: It’ll be interesting to see and especially hear the dash cam video of what he was yelling at the cops.
“Why are they pointing those guns at us?”
“Public enemy he calls me”
(Key Largo)
scav
how low does one have to be to look up to such inept, smack-talking, snack-begging, “o there are consequences for me?” people as leaders?
Peale
@Adam L Silverman: Oy! This is a family blog, you know.
? Martin
@debbie:
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: OMG WHY DID I READ THAT THREAD? I WEEP FOR HUMANITY. DID THOSE POSTERS DRINK FLINT RIVER WATER AS CHILDREN?
Van Buren
@Adam L Silverman: I can’t believe it’s even up for consideration to grant bail. If they were Muslim they would have already been waterboarded.
Peale
@oz29:
You expect patriots to use muslimy numbrals?
Ruckus
@Peale:
They might dig pretty deep.
D58826
@bin Lurkin’: This is getting old. Every group of documents contains something that may or may not have been classified. Since more than a few folks in the government have it in for the Clinton’s would not be surprised if these documents suddenly became classified like yesterday, Since Congcritter Issa is claiming that criminal charges are forthcoming its got partisan leak all over it. BUT the private e-mail server was still STUPID!!
Germy
We need more Fear™ this election cycle. How long before GOP candidates start yelling “They’re invading our borders and bringing the Zika virus!”
Or have they already started yelling that?
JPL
I just skimmed the comments quickly but I didn’t see the article about the family gospel singers posted.
NYTimes link
For those who can’t link the article is about the Sharp family who went to the refuge to entertain the terrorists.
The oldest daughter who was 18 was in the car when Levoy was shot. The others had gone ahead to John Day. It’s a single mom with ten children and she brought eight of them to the refuge. She can relate because life is hard for her also. (no comment)
Eric S.
@Adam L Silverman: Re: thinking they can out shoot the police.
On the one hand there’s the couple year old story out of NYC where a couple of police officers fired on a suspect and hit a bunch of bystanders instead.
On the other hand there was the more recent Laquan McDonald incident in Chicago where the officer (murderer) unloaded his pistol and hit the McDonald 16 times.
It’s all about cherry picking your data to fulfill your fantasies.
Iowa Old Lady
@Soylent Green: He wants pardons? I believe those are issued after convictions, or else there’s nothing to pardon. Presumably he wants charges dropped and immunity from ever being charged on what went on. These guys have Trump like delusions of grandeur.
Aleta
@Adam L Silverman:
So he had enough time to draw his gun, at least once, in the timing as you see it ? (If it had been holstered or if he’s gone right for his left pocket?)
BGinCHI
Eats. Deschutes. And leaves.
Adam L Silverman
@a different chris: According to the 18 year old woman in the truck, part of that family of singers from Kansas, Payne and Finicum had been fighting about suicide by cop between the initial stop and the vehicle going off the road at the blockade. Given that the rest of her account was so far off, you can take that for what its worth.
I can’t prove this, but I think what happened is that Payne took his weapon out prior to exiting the vehicle, got out with it visible and paused when instructed to stop, lay it down, and proceed with his hands above his head.
From what I’ve seen in the reporting Payne is considered to be problematic by others in the militia movements. His recounting of his service, that he was a Ranger (he wasn’t – he was an intel scout), and the belief that he is actually a turned or placed government mole/informant makes him suspect for a lot of these folks. I also think he’s likely a chicken shit. He didn’t want to die, wasn’t going to go along with whatever Finicum was trying to do, and got himself out of the line of fire as quickly as he could.
Adam L Silverman
@Iowa Old Lady: He wasn’t. It was reported that Ryan Bundy had been injured by ricocheted shrapnel.
randy khan
@Iowa Old Lady: There is precedent for pardoning someone before he’s even been indicted. See Nixon, Richard.
And, since Both Sides Do It, I should note that Jimmy Carter pardoned Vietnam War draft dodgers in 1977.
Adam L Silverman
@debbie: Exactly. Though I will say that response time for law enforcement in rural areas is long. When we had our place out in the mountains of New Mexico my father was talking about getting a rifle. We had black bear that tended to wake up from hibernation early and hungry and often went beyond nuisance to actual threat to human life, including several bear maulings in the area. I had one trash the bed of my truck one night, most likely because it smelled where the grocery bags had been.
Adam L Silverman
@Soylent Green: Like I said last night: bless their hearts, they’re persistent. None to bright, but persistent.
oz29
@Soylent Green: I’m not Adam, but maybe I can help, re: your jurisdictional question. Jurisdiction is a lot less rigid than I think you are imagining. In part, this is because counties are simply administrative subdivisions of the state — meaning they have no inherent governmental authority; they are creatures created by the state constitution and statute. While a Sheriff has no statutory authority outside his own County, he does not need any authority to conduct an investigation. Anybody (Sheriff or otherwise) can investigate anything they please pretty much anywhere they please. The efficacy of the investigation may depend on the assent of the locals, but the presence of it does not.
This actually happens on a fairly regular basis, particularly in remote areas. Out-of-county law enforcement agencies are often deemed to be better situated to conduct a particular investigation, whether they have “jurisdiction” or not. Sometimes it is a manpower issue, sometimes proximity, sometimes (as in the case of shootings or other misconduct) it is a matter of avoiding an appearance of impropriety.
Adam L Silverman
@Peale: last time I stated that I was asked if I knew of someone named Sarah from Australia.
Mike in NC
@Germy: When I first read about the Zika virus I thought they meant the Mika virus, which turns you in a spineless sidekick of Joe Scarborough.
Villago Delenda Est
@Adam L Silverman: Deschutes County is on the east side of the Cascades, and has the largest law enforcement presence east of the Cascades.
Calling in people from Portland, Salem, or Eugene would be politically awkward. As well as more expensive in terms of TDY costs.
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: go over and read my guest posts and the comments to it. Its hysterical.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/09/robert-farago/armed-jews-fought-back-against-the-nazis-to-no-appreciable-effect/
Adam L Silverman
@Van Buren: I agree 100 and III%
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: I linked to an article about them on Tuesday night’s update.
randy khan
@D58826:
I must admit I’m of two minds about this. If I’d been asked, I’d probably have said not to do it, not because it was wrong but because what’s happening now probably was going to happen. But in the abstract, given what her predecessors had done, it’s hard to say it was wrong to have it.
The problem, all along, has been the Clinton Rules. And, honestly, I kind of feel like it would have been something else if it wasn’t this because it’s her.
(And, yeah, we’ve definitely heard this song before. I wouldn’t even be surprised to learn that the State Department didn’t consider the information to be classified, but that NSA or the CIA was insisting; it wouldn’t be the first time in this saga that something like that happened.)
Adam L Silverman
@Eric S.: The NYPD are frequently used as the exemplar in the argument. The real issue with the NYPD is that they are required to have an approximately 11 lbs trigger (pull) on their service GLOCKs. This not only negates the point of using the GLOCK, or any of the other quality striker fired pistols, as the standard GLOCK trigger is approximately 5.5 lbs from the factory. The NYPD’s NY trigger is heavier than most factory double action trigger pulls. Trying to maintain a consistent trigger pull against that much resistance across the entire length of the trigger pull is very, very difficult. Moreover, it lends itself to overgripping/death gripping the firearm. GLOCKs are notoriously sensitive to grips that are too strong, which leads the shots to go left of point of aim for right handed searches and the opposite for left handed shooters.
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: Jesus effing Christ–the very first comment! Perhaps “Jamie in North Dakota” does not have the benefit of legal training as I do, but i think anyone who can read at a first grade level would understand that you did not say that the Jews should have marched themselves into the ovens. I assume she and her compatriots have applied the same level of reading comprehension to the US Constitution.
Adam L Silverman
@Aleta: I think he could have gotten his hand on it and maybe gotten it out. Could he have gotten it aimed onto a (law enforcement) target is something I can’t answer. But he had several seconds to draw out before he was shot, so its not improbable that he could have drawn it.
D58826
@randy khan: I guess my problem with the ‘Clinton Rules’ is which side defines the rules. In common usage it means that the Clinton’s simply ignore the law and do what they want. Which if true surely someone would have found something to charge them with. They must be the most investigated people on the planet. Or should we understand the ‘Clinton Rules’ to mean that if Bill or Hillary does it then it must be a crime against nature, never mind the rest of Washington (if not most of the rest of humanity) is doing the exact same thing on a daily basis. See – Monica and Gingrich mistress. The Clinton play the political game hard but then so do the republicans
Adam L Silverman
@BGinCHI: well done, well done indeed.
a different chris
@Adam L Silverman: Payne got out/surrendered the first time the truck stopped in the road, before they took off and then crashed. After Finicum was shot, the next one out was Ryan Bundy.
Eric S.
@Adam L Silverman:
I’ve never heard that before. I’ve done a minimal amount of shooting – I found it uninteresting and never continued – and have fired a Glock. That’s a heavy trigger. Good piece of data to keep stored away. Thanks!
JPL
@Adam L Silverman: I can’t make it through the comments. It’s hysterical in the crazed way, surely. Your article was great, btw.
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: Go down and see the retired Jewish lawyer named Ralph accuse me of being a self hating Jew and libeling or slandering Israel.
Also, enjoy the fight between the folks that confuse the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising with the different and separate Warsaw Uprising and those trying to explain to them that this was covered by me under the general concept of armed Jewish resistance.
Adam L Silverman
@Aleta: I want to caveat my earlier response to you at: @Adam L Silverman: I don’t know Finicum, I’ve never seem him draw a weapon, and I have no idea how much he practiced and if he did so under stress conditions to (try to) simulate the conditions of a self defense scenario. Under optimal conditions I think there was time to do so. I think someone with sufficient training under the right conditions could also have done it in a stress situation. I have no idea if that actually applies to Finicum.
Adam L Silverman
@a different chris: Ahh, he probably got caught with some broken window glass from the less than lethal projectiles they shot to break the windows so they could shoot the OC gas canisters/capsules into the truck.
Adam L Silverman
@Eric S.: Here’s a couple of write ups, and yes I know these firearms sites:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/
http://bearingarms.com/nypd-a-dangerous-philosophy/
http://forums.officer.com/t172751/
Consider that most DA/SA pulls have the DA from the factory between 7 and 10 lbs and that the best rated DAO trigger pull for a self defense weapon, on the niche SIG SAUER P250, is a approximately 5.5 lbs, a 12 lbs trigger pull is a lot of trigger to fight.
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: OMG
I’m not Jewish, but I have dark hair, a German surname, and a law degree, so I think it’s ok for me to be offended by this.
OMG
I haven’t even gotten to the stuff you recommended. It is nice to see (1) the occasional sane person pointing out the insanity of the posters, and even (2) the occasional insane person acknowledging that his militia bros can’t take down the US military.
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: Some of the comments were really good. Several folks actually tried to engage with what I wrote, even if its from a direction I really don’t understand. These were the folks that I actually tried to respond too. And I did have one commenter who has read my stuff at other places come to my defense too! Part of the problem is that the post was an accident. I had emailed the publisher, who I know very casually from email correspondence, explaining why the previous guest post on the topic was not factually correct. I had no idea he was going to put it up as a guest post in its own right. Had I known that I would have included a short bio introducing myself that allowed readers to have some idea of my background. If you go into the comments I actually went in and did a stand alone comment doing so to provide that context.
Iowa Old Lady
@randy khan: Basically he wants everyone to declare bygones.
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: see my response to JPL at 139. Honestly, I think some of what the publisher posts is sheer click bait. He knows his readership, especially his commenters, and feeds them appropriately. That’s not to say that he isn’t a committed firearms owner. My understanding is that he was the victim of a particularly nasty mugging, and that coupled with being the kid of a pair of Holocaust survivors, led him to the position of: “I will never be victimized again and neither will my family.”
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: This was my step-father’s roommate at Yale. Kulski never discussed it, then one day sent him his book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0030409012/thewarsawupri-20
Steve in the ATL
Eaten link to book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0030409012/thewarsawupri-20
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: That’s both cool and very heavy stuff. No wonder he didn’t talk much about it. Also, I fixed your link – it had migrated into the reply button and wasn’t visible, so hitting reply sent me to Amazon.
Doug R
@D58826: You mean a private server like EVERY SoS before her?
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: i fixed it!
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: Thank you!
I gave up reading the comments when one of the lunatics said that the Nazi SS were leftists….
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: Jonah Goldberg has a lot to answer for.
debbie
@Steve in the ATL:
Speaking of lunatics, this morning Glenn Beck (a self-proclaimed student of History) said that Progressives started World War !.
Steve in the ATL
@debbie: OMG. I hope that by now most people see him as a clown and no longer take him seriously. Except about buying gold, of course–can’t go wrong with that!
Prescott Cactus
@Soylent Green:
I wanted a pony when I was a kid and I ain’t walking bowlegged.
@Iowa Old Lady: @a different chris: Wasn’t he also wounded? When did that happen?
Ryan got hit with “shrapnel” from the flash bangs they threw near the car after LaVoy committed martyrdom by cop.
Adam L Silverman
@debbie: That’s probably aimed at President Wilson. Beck, like Bundy and company, is a victim of Cleon Skousen and the Birchers, amongst other sources of alternative American history.
Aleta
Thanks for your generosity in fielding questions.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman:
I liked (?) this comment re ‘Tom’s’ “What About the Ghetto Uprisings, Man!!11!!” :
“Yep they made a total mockery of the SS, until the SS decided to just burn the ghetto down. Then they all died. Horribly.
An insurgency works until the occupation force decides on genocide as a course of action. Then the insurgency dies along with everyone else.”
But as for the rest, well…I’m learning that in America, you should never bring logic to a gun fight.
tybee
@Adam L Silverman:
dayyum
Adam L Silverman
@Aleta: if this was aimed (see what I did there?) at me, then you are quite welcome.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: people forget that the only completely successful counterinsurgency operation was the British in Malaya. They were brutal and effective.
randy khan
@D58826: I’m using the term in the context of how the press treats them, and her in particular – they’re guilty until proven innocent. There have been so many examples just from the email server reporting that it’s hard to even know where to begin. My personal favorite in the last six months was the breathless reporting that HRC had signed off (as in, literally signed a document) on a special waiver for Huma Abedin despite her claims that she hadn’t, and the subsequent discovery that the document (which was available all the time) had been signed by somebody else, but there’s so much more.
Aleta
Something to do in jail:
How to make a paper Cowboy Hat
(The parts similar to making a paper crane are sorta bittersweet.)
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@waysel:
Think old Alec Guiness comedy from Ealing Studios, not a Beatles’ lp.
J R in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
I got stalked by a mountain lion in a residential neighborhood (for rural Arizona anyway!) after a forest fire in the Chiricahua mountains drove all the game down into the valley floor. I carried a .40 the rest of that winter, and when I got back to WV I bought a .45.
Carrying a rifle all the time is too hard… you can hardly use a chainsaw!
So anyway, I’m with you on the black bear thing. And it would take at least 45 minutes for a police car to get to us here in WV, where we’re in an area blending from rural to rural-suburban… longer than that at home in AZ.
Ella in New Mexico
If you guys knew how many Conservative Christians and Mormon sympathizer a are FB spam-posting what a fucking martyr LaVoy Finicum is–“he died with his hands up in a peaceful protest, gunned down by FBI agents” you’d be very discouraged. Amazing what people will refuse to believe regardless of video evidence to the contrary.
Felonius Monk
I posted this up above in TaMara’s post, but it rightfully belongs here. A fitting tribute to Meal Team Six and their quest for snacks.
Adam L Silverman
@J R in WV:
Where I’m at someone had a bobcat in his backyard in downtown Dunedin, FL. And the bobcat was not invited, he just wandered into an urban area on his own. Like so much else a lot of this stuff has to do with how much risk you are willing to assume. I’m not advocating for someone to have a handgun or long gun. I’m also not advocating for anyone not to have one. Whenever anyone has ever asked me if I think they should get a gun, I always ask them two questions: 1) Why do you feel you need a gun/what are you planning on doing with it? and 2) If the answer to question 1 is self defense, do you feel and think that if your life or someone you cared about were in danger that you could draw the gun, point it at the threat, and pull the trigger until the threat was neutralized. If the answer to question 2 is I’m not sure, then you shouldn’t have a gun for self defense because, as you know, having it under that circumstance is going to increase your risk, not reduce it.
Adam L Silverman
@Ella in New Mexico: I know, believe me, I know. And I don’t even use Facebook!
alan
I have been following this also on the Harney County Sheriff Facebook page. Absolutely amazing comments… I see way more fanatic right-wing vitriol and lies than on on Free Republic. And under their proper names no less.
Hey, between Bernie and Hillary, I am thinking Hillary would pretty much kick militia ass for starters, a la Ronaldo Reagan and he Air Controllers.
TriassicSands
My guess is the shooting of Finicum will be ruled justified, but like so many of these shootings it probably wasn’t necessary. On the other hand, Finicum and his gun-toting adolescent friends asked for a violent outcome when they showed up in Oregon spewing their anti-government nonsense and threatening the use of force.
a different chris
@TriassicSands: The only way it was ‘probably not necessary’ is if he was actually reaching into his coat pocket for his little tiny copy of the Constitution that by sheer coincidence just happened to be in the same pocket as his pistol. But now we’ll never know what his true intentions were… amirite?
low-tech cyclist
@Keith G:
Thank you, THANK YOU!!
My wife and I visited Glacier NP for a couple of weeks back in 1997, and one night at Truby’s in Whitefish, where they have some of the world’s best pizza, by the way (or did in 1997 and 2005, haven’t been back since), I had a porter whose name I forgot too quickly, but I still remember how good it was.
I wrote down the name so I could try to get some once I was back East, but in 1997 that was still not possible. So I soon lost the scrap of paper and forgot the name soon after, but still remembered that I’d had this great porter from Oregon with a funky name.
But now you’ve jogged my memory – it was Deschutes Black Butte Porter. (Actually, when I saw ‘Deschutes’ in the thread title, I was already going, “wait a second….” but you nailed it down for me.) And less than a minute of Googling tells me where I can find it here in the DC area.
I’m rather excited about this. Thanks again!!
Elizabelle
@Felonius Monk: Snacks and socks.
That was excellent. Ta.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman:
Way late to the party so I wouldn’t expect you to answer, necessarily, but…
I went back and read those comments on your article, and geez…I mean WTF with these people?? The only thing I find more crazy-making than a bunch of obvious morans like the Malheur Bunch waving their guns around and screaming “government oppression!!” and “the 2nd Amendment was totally put in place so that we the people could rise up in armed insurrection against the tyrannical (leftist!) government!!”, are people who actually know enough to put a sentence together who peddle this BS. How the hell can any of these knobs seriously imagine that the US government or armed forces are out to oppress THEM? I haven’t even served and I find the notion so grossly insulting and offensive that I can barely stand it. How do you put up with this shit, much less put up with it calmly and rationally?
OK, rant off. All I can say is, you’re a better man than I. Wait…