Maybe Hillary Clinton will never be a “natural” politician like President Obama or Bill Clinton, but she’s working hard to improve at every step. #ImWithHer
Amy Chozick, in the NYTimes:
… Mrs. Clinton seemed, for the first time in a rocky and unpredictable Democratic race, relaxed. “That’s what’s so great about being back here now for this primary,” she said at Mikey Likes It Ice Cream, where the owner had named the dessert in her honor. “I get to go to a lot of the places that I love. I get to meet new people and see people I’ve known for a long time.”
Mrs. Clinton has had dramatic highs and crushing lows in her political career and in this campaign. But since she first ran for office 16 years ago, New York has always been the state that loved her back, and on Tuesday it delivered one of her biggest boosts yet toward becoming the first woman to capture the Democratic Party’s nomination for president.
“Today, today, you proved once again, there’s no place like home,” she told a jubilant crowd of more than 2,500 at the Sheraton New York hotel in Midtown after taking the stage to the song “Empire State of Mind” by Alicia Keys and Jay Z.
“In this campaign, we’ve won in every region of the country, from the North to the South to the East to the West,” Mrs. Clinton added. “But this one is personal.”…
In the two weeks since her April 5 loss in Wisconsin, Mrs. Clinton ran a classic street-level campaign to win New York. As Mr. Sanders stuck largely to a strategy of holding large rallies, drawing tens of thousands to Washington Square Park and Prospect Park, Mrs. Clinton echoed her first Senate campaign and kept many of her appearances targeted and intimate.
And for a candidate sometimes criticized as aloof and wooden, Mrs. Clinton, in New York, seemed carefree, or as carefree as a cautious presidential candidate can be…
Aides say New York, and Mrs. Clinton’s record, relationship and ease with voters here, can serve as a blueprint for what they hope to show the rest of the country in subsequent primaries and the general election. The campaign ran a dozen ads in New York, more than in any state since New Hampshire. Many of them celebrated the city’s diversity and took aim at the leading Republican candidate, Donald J. Trump, for his comments about immigrants, Muslims and women..
Dispatches from the Enthusiasm Gap: Clinton got more votes in NY tonight than all the GOP candidates combined.
— Melissa McEwan (@Shakestweetz) April 20, 2016
***********
Apart from looking ahead, what’s on the agenda for the day?
12 key states, thousands of staff. This isn't something that can start in June or July and Clinton camp knows it. https://t.co/3AArNHb6VT
— Jennifer Epstein (@jeneps) April 20, 2016
craigie
When you are commenting from India, nobody gets up before you do!
I started this campaign as a Bernie fan, and even sent him money. But now I’m looking forward to Hillary making the GOP cry for 8 long years.
Applejinx
Congratulations to Hillary Clinton. If anybody can learn from the astonishing spectacle of this primary, it is her.
Not Bernie: he just happens to already represent what I believe in, issues-wise, so he didn’t have to learn or change to be representing me, he just had to keep hammering that stump speech. It still speaks for me, and that isn’t going to change. Of all the candidates, Hillary is the most likely to read the tea leaves of this primary and be in a position to do something about it.
I’m going to have to rely on the people in places like this to fill me in on whether that’s happening but I want to believe.
Also, FUCK WEAVER. The putz.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
The 45th President of the United States (photo)
rikyrah
Good Morning ?, Everyone ?.
SciNY
You know, she’s not a natural politician like her husband or Obama, but I do see a lot of growth and progress in how she’s run this campaign. As someone who’s sad to see President Obama leave office in 2017, I am consoled to think that Hillary Clinton is well-suited to defend his signature accomplishments, and as she showed in her campaigns for Senator here, willing to listen to a wide variety of voices and opinions, while still defending a core set of beliefs and values. Meanwhile, I’ve gone sour on Bernie’s campaign. His voice was needed, but now it’s become so harsh and destructive that I fear it may be difficult or impossible to reconcile the revolutionaries with the progressive pragmatists. In a funny way this is what caused the Republicans to turn to Trump — a sense of complete disillusionment in the political process. While that’s attractive, my reading of history is that progress in social welfare, civil rights, and other areas required not only a moral voice but also a practical sense of achieving both incremental short-term gains and transformative long-term ones. Bernie’s “purity” message is not only ineffective in achieving the former, it disqualifies it morally. The irony is that this purity message also makes the struggle for progress harder in the long run. To his credit, Barack Obama understands the long game. While some call it “leading from behind,” it’s striking that the signature accomplishment of his presidency (the Affordable Care Act) eluded Democratic progressives for decades. Sometimes you need a party builder — or as some might call it, community organizer — to bring about real (though gradual) change.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
They called her “unqualified”, they called her a “whore”, they threw dollar bills at her, they said don’t vote for her cuz she’s going to be arrested by the FBI, they said Trump would be a better president, they said winning South Carolina was like winning Guam, they said
BlackSouthern voters “distort” the primary process, they smeared her with false allegations of illegal fundraising, and they lost in a humiliating landslide.Please proceed, Senator.
Cermet
Hillary is pretty much a lock with PA, MD almost sure things and then NJ. Sanders has made good points but just isn’t what the majority of people are looking for; too bad but this country isn’t ready for hitting the real elite – the 0.001% where and how it so richly deserves. Maybe in another generation or two as AGW causes numerous wars, breakdown of countries, environmental disruption, rapid growth of deserts and huge loss of forest, millions upon millions of refugee’s fleeing hunger and civil wars, and large numbers of needless deaths due to both famine and a host of new diseases; then people may begin to realize that the real elite are the cause of 99.99% of the worlds issues and maybe, just maybe start to vote their own interest for once by rejecting the crazy religions that help to so enslave them to the elite …
OzarkHillbilly
My dog tore a nail almost all the way off the other day.
Hal
Hold up. Mikey Likes It ice cream?
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: Ouch, they really bleed!
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
Shorter Bernie: “It’s just a flesh wound!”
Hope he enjoys his new Senate role as the sole member of the study committee on naming dams, berms and waterworks…
Kropadope
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I adore that outfit.
Applejinx
It’s like we have two capable nominees surrounded by idiots. I’m livid at Weaver (and took too long to identify that problem even as it exploded into an ugly mess) while still supporting Bernie’s message, and stuff like ‘CP Time’ and Bill defending the ‘superpredator’ stuff are people other than Hillary herself, making a mess.
Bernie’s message is not ‘purity’, that’s the blind spot by which political advisors augmented their own bank accounts, playing into his tendency to be the purity pony. His message is ‘oligarchy’s hurting us, climate change is a severe catastrophic problem, the prison-industrial complex is hurting us, people should get involved and do their civic duty and change all this’. That’s the message. There is no reason Hillary Clinton can’t adopt most or all of this, and mean it. (probably some will say she already is: hope so, because it’s now down to her plausibly representing that constituency)
Kropadope
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Well, he did say he wanted massive investment in infrastructure.
Applejinx
@Cermet: How do you know people don’t think Hillary better suited to doing that?
Seems like it is a severe mistake to conclude that a vote for Hillary is a vote AGAINST the Sanders platform. It looks like a great number of people don’t think he personally can get that done. Doesn’t mean they don’t want it, or want the opposite. If they want the opposite, they can go vote for Trump or whoever.
Gravenstone
I know that primary turnout does not directly translate to general turnout, but I’m happy to see this outcome. I have an acquaintance from NY (and Trump supporter) who is absolutely convinced that Trump would take NY in the general, blocking any Democratic path to victory. This is the start of a nice rebuttal.
Betty Cracker
@OzarkHillbilly: Yikes! I hope he or she is okay!
For me, one of the real challenges to coexisting with dogs is dealing with their claws, which I really hate doing because I’m afraid I’ll hurt them. My kiddo is the designated claw trimmer now — she lures them with Goldfish crackers, and they roll over and let her trim their nails using one of those Dremel thingies. Still, we get the occasional claw injury, and like Raven said, they bleed so! I hate it.
Randy P
Most interesting primary in PA since I moved here in 2001. Not only is the presidential nomination still waiting to be finalized, but there’s a down-ticket race which I’m kind of agonizing about and don’t know which way to go.
Joe Sestak is running for Pat Toomey’s Senate seat. The state party establishment does not like him. He primaried Arlen Specter in 2010 after the party convinced Specter to switch to the Democratic party by promising him he’d be anointed unchallenged. Then Sestak lost the general to the odious Toomey. He’s been campaigning nonstop since 2010.
I liked him in 2010, and I don’t like the whole “anointing” thing. My natural contrarian tendency is to favor whoever the machine doesn’t anoint. But this year’s anointed candidate, Katie McGinty, a former staffer for our new governor Tom Wolf, is looking like a pretty exciting candidate. I’m truly undecided on which one would be a better Senator and which one is more electable. My wife is lobbying me hard for McGinty, says she never liked Sestak.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Gravenstone:
Shit, there are enough stiffed vendors and employees of vendors who got burned by Trump’s bankruptcy filings alone to being Hillz over the top in New York.
I want some of whatever dank stash that your friend has been smoking…
Betty Cracker
@Applejinx:
I agree. So does Clinton, who said: “There is much more that unites us than divides us.”
Kropadope
@Applejinx:
Also, the favorite point of low-info caricaturists across the internet.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: It was the one up on the leg. No idea how he did it. He came in and stood before me holding that paw up. Different pose for him, so I looked closer and noticed immediately that it was sticking out at a weird angle. When I touched it he howled/yelped and jerked it back, and somehow or other between both our actions we seemed to realign it. He is still licking it alot, but he no longer favors it.
kd bart
Comic book store needs you back, Jeff.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Betty Cracker: We let the groomer deal with the girls claws.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: Poor baby.
I suspect Bernie will stay in to have more delegates for the convention. Has he made a statement yet, or has it been only Devine and Weaver?
If he stays in, I hope he focuses on getting his supporters ready for a nasty fight against the GOP. I’m concerned his staff may push him to continue his current approach because that tends to raise more money.
We’ll see.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@BillinGlendaleCA:
I don’t do dog nails anymore. Traumatized him as a puppy, now the groomer has to muzzle him to do them.
BillinGlendaleCA
@OzarkHillbilly: The same claw on our YorkiPom broke too, it didn’t bleed and she didn’t seem to be in any discomfort. It looked painful.
Betty Cracker
@BillinGlendaleCA: If I had dogs who required haircuts, I’d go with that option too. I wonder how much a groomer would charge to do just the claw trimming?
Taylor
@Applejinx:
It’s pretty obvious that the increasingly militarized local police forces, and the massive national surveillance using the internet and people’s own cell phones, is preparation for control of an increasingly restive population as automation replaces jobs and climate change becomes impossible to ignore.
That is why this election is so important. Do we have somebody who can ameliorate these tendencies, and help us negotiate our way to a post-industrial future, or will we have someone like Ted Cruz who will endorse the program wholeheartedly?
Sanders as nominee would be a gift to the Republicans, a sacrificial goat to the Gods of Purity Politics.
Yesterday was a good day.
Davebo
@OzarkHillbilly: Ouch! The Dewclaw.
That’s painful.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Taylor:
I have nothing but a feeling to back this up, but I think if Bernie was the nominee; Trump would win California.
SciNY
I think this is where we will see the true character of both the winners and losers in this campaign. I went door-to-door for Obama and felt hot in the face with every real or perceived slight from the Clinton campaign. No doubt that was hard-fought till the end. However Hillary’s grace in defeat and subsequent service as Secretary of State in the very administration of her primary opponent have shown her to be a true stateswoman, who gets that sometimes it’s not about any one of us, but rather all of us (including those less empowered to advocate for themselves). I was more than happy to vote for Hillary yesterday, and in our multigenerational household, we were unanimous in that sentiment. I believe Hillary has learned from and responded to the leftward pressure from Bernie, and feel like racially and religiously diverse families like mine are not an afterthought with her. Especially when the other side’s main message is to find, throw out, torture, or otherwise marginalize any folks who look or pray wrong, this inclusiveness means a lot.
Aimai
@Kropadope: bernie told his crowd that “no one is qualified” who did things, like take PAC mondy, that every politician has to fo and that the current head of party, batack obama, has done. Thats purity. I dont know why you keep insisting that bernie and his staff and surrogates havent made the arguments that are ascribed to them. The guy has explicitly and publiclly campsigned as the only honest person in a corrupt system.
Amir Khalid
@Applejinx:
But ultimately, a presidential candidate is running for an executive job. One who can’t think beyond the noble sentiments in his stump speech and articulate a credible plan for doing that job, as Bernie has shown he cannot do, is unfit for that job. That has always been my beef with Bernie.
Princess
Sanders has the numbers behind him and the good will to be a real force for change within the party, if he stays in and works with Hillary the way Hillary worked with Obama. He could be the permanent conscience of the Democratic party on the issues he cares most of it. It is a role that would suit him well. Weaver would destroy all of that potential. It is up to Sanders to make that decision. Right now Sanders probably feels like a loser and does not realize the power he still has, and has the potential to use for good and for change.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Yeah, Bernie is so unique a candidate, it’s hard for me to see how the GE would have played out. But then, I could say the same thing about Trump.
Baud
@Princess: This.
amk
@Kropadope: Be that as it may, it still is a fact. Who knows where sanders might have ended up with more shrewd and capable campaign team.
OzarkHillbilly
@Davebo: Funny, my wife and I had that discussion on the name. I was calling it the dew claw but then I realized I was doing that as a vestige of my deer hunting days and wondered whether it was the same for dogs or not. Now I know, thanx.
Emma
@Princess: Unfortunately, as I mentioned in the thread below, he’s not staying in the party. According to newspaper reports he has already filed for his next Vermont election as an independent. If that is true, carpetbagger is the least of the insults he deserves.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Betty Cracker:
Nine bucks at PetSmart, fifteen at my vet. Extra for buffing.
Totally worth it.
gelfling545
@Cermet: i think a lot of the country is more than ready to “hit the real elite” but were not persuaded that Sanders could establish the necessary support to do so. A president does not govern alone.
SciNY
@Aimai: precisely — not to be coarse, but it’s the political equivalent of “slut shaming” with the bonus scent of blithe dismissal that makes it harder for women to be rough-and-tumble politicians, executives, or pretty much any type of leader. “Disqualified” or “unqualified” to do a job is something women and people of color have heard too often, often on the slimmest of pretexts, and rings false as it was deployed by Sanders against Hillary. I am sure Trump (or Cruz) will run lots of ads with these comments featured front and center, just to remind us how unqualified she is to be President of the United States. Thanks, Bernie.
Princess
@Emma: Given that he has always been an independent and has always caucused with the Democrats, this isn’t an insurmountable problem. He could do all this from a position as an independent (though he’d have a stronger voice as a Democrat). It is more about how he chooses to use his time. Does he endorse and slink away? Does he fail to endorse at all? Or does he endorse, make a powerful and uniting speech at the convention, and campaign hard in the Fall, perhaps with an emphasis on more liberal candidates? Only he can decide.
bystander
@OzarkHillbilly: The dew claw is the trickiest because it doesn’t get ground down the way the other claws do. Running through tall grass can catch and pull.
Yay for Clinton. Moanin’ Joe is having a tough morning.
Baud
@bystander: I’m surprised they aren’t back to talking about emails.
Kropadope
@Aimai: People say dumb shit running for office. Clinton has too. That doesn’t make either of them of them a cartoon villain in the manner that Bernie is frequently portrayed here.
Also, with respect to the “unqualified” comment, I’m pretty sure Bernie was either being misled to believe she had just called him unqualified or heard her comment and thought” that’s what I’d say about someone to call them unqualified without actually saying the words” and somewhere down the road that got twisted in the memory bank to his believing she actually said it. Either way, it was wrong for him to say, but people make mistakes.
Let’s look at the list. Bernie has said, repeatedly, that supers should follow the will of the voters. People frequently make assertions to the contrary. Bernie does not want to dismantle the ACA and Medicare. He does, indeed, have more modest, achievable goals alongside his pie-in-the-sky ones. He has a plan to break up the big banks and has submitted legislation to do so which, if passed, would be on more solid footing than any ad-hoc administrative effort (which would be on questionable legal terrain no matter who ran it, which is why he refused to make any strong assertions that the Fed already has the power to do so). He never once asserted that solving economic inequality is a panacea. Shall I continue?
gindy51
@Betty Cracker: My vet charges $5, you can walk in anytime and their groomer will do the. Sometimes we have to wait a bit, but it is well worth it if you have a dog with hard, black nails. Ask your vet if they do this, you might be surprised how inexpensive it is. We always have them done when it is shot time, too.
OzarkHillbilly
@bystander: I kinda figure he got it caught going after a squirrel or mouse or whatever in a brush pile. We have a few of those around the place.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@OzarkHillbilly:
That sounds like it would be painful, poor pup. Hows he doing?
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Baud:
Vince Foster, Travel Office and Whitewater stories will make a comeback.
Same thing as commodity wins and losses.
The Morning Joe segue into the 90s will come abruptly, and will be marked by pleats and ugly sweaters.
Cermet
@Applejinx: Hope you are correct but I have doubts; Hillary will make a decent President but tackling big issues like AGW, the industrial prison complex system, or even the failed drug war just isn’t in her nature. Hope I am wrong. In any case, I will vote for her and I will wait and see.
Applejinx
@Emma: What? He’s always been an independent. Effectively he’s been one this whole time. Had he campaigned as an independent, he couldn’t possibly have documented the force of progressivism in the Democratic party, especially w.r.t. young voters and new voters.
Weaver’s an asshole exploiting his purity-pony tendencies but without Bernie, nobody would know about the Dem Left. It is on the Democrats to welcome in this now-obvious force that’s come close to a party takeover in less than a year.
What good would it do anybody for Bernie to fall in line? I’m a Vermonter and I’m fucking well voting for him again whether he’s running as an Independent, a Socialist, or a Bird. Quit your bitching, he’s coming home to us having done a bit more than a stellar job.
Had he known it would be like this, we could’ve saved a lot of ugly politicking and let him hammer on the issues like he’d rather do. But this is how things unfolded. I blame Devine and Weaver, but I completely understand how they went astray.
Bernie speaks for an upcoming generation… so that’s MISTER Independent to you. (if it helps, think of it as ‘Mister Not Actually President’, but I think the vast majority of us are totally fine with Bernie returning to being an Independent. You gotta drop this football-jerseys politics…)
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: “Indictments are right around the corner!!!”
gindy51
@Princess: Unless he goes back to being an independent like I think he will.
Cermet
@OzarkHillbilly:I do my St. Bernard using a metal grade file; a bit of a wrestling match (don’t always win) but it works. Avoids accidents that clipping can do but works fast enough that I stay ahead of the nail growth. So far, she has not had issues. Sorry to hear about your’s.
Emma
@Applejinx: Excuse me, but it seems to me that a politician who makes a decision to join a political party just to run for president and, in the middle of his run, telegraphs his intention to ditch the party if things don’t go his way, is not someone I am likely to place a lot of trust in. He’s a best an opportunist and at worst a cynical manipulator, whatever his ideas might be.
Applejinx
@Cermet: I’ve said all this time that she can be swayed and could be trying to leave a legacy like FDR: I think she’d really like that. On the other hand she could leave a legacy like Bill: “popular harbinger of decline and fall of the empire”. I don’t think she’d like that so much.
What I’m going to keep a sharp eye out for is Republican-style ‘right to work’ type framing. ‘Right to aspire’ is bad, bad news in a country that’s structurally crippled, which has to lie about unemployment to seem like things are okay, which is getting worse rapidly. Everybody’s figuring out what a ripoff the ‘gig economy’ is. Nothing is stopping Hillary from presiding over a recovery and guiding it wisely, but ‘right to aspire’ is too much like ‘let them eat cake’ and she’s gonna have to do better. It’s not the same world she grew up in, and she’s being lied to as much as Sanders has been.
Betty Cracker
@Applejinx: See, the “football-jersey politics” thing is part of the problem I have with Sanders, at least at this stage of the campaign. It’s the Democratic Party, and by the way, it’s the only goddamned party that has helped poor people, minorities and women for the past 90 years or so. So screw your blithe dismissal of it.
amk
@Applejinx:
this is the kinda only we know and define ‘progressivism’ arrogant attitude that didn’t endear him and his fans to the actual dem base.
eta: betty beat me to it.
Kropadope
@Emma:
Ditch the party is a strong phrase. Has he said he would stop caucusing with the Democrats? Stop voting with them on policy and/or procedural matters? Stop supporting the DSCC (which broadly supports Democrats running for the Senate nationwide)? Stop supporting other individual candidates?
OzarkHillbilly
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): After visiting the vet and getting some pain killers, “He’sh doin’ jusht fine, Offisher…”
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
I have an incredible amount of sympathy for Ms. Clinton because I feel an affinity to her in an odd way. I love politics, have worked on campaigns and for the party for nearly 60 years. I believe I have a lot of good ideas and would enjoy being in the elected government and can find good compromises. The problem? I am not a likeable person. That is something you can’t fix and really can’t hide over the course of a campaign. A lot of what is happening for Clinton is simply because she does not have the chrism of her husband or Obama. Even that vile fucker W was judged ‘likeable’ by a majority of voters. It is a lousy way to get good presidents but it is baked into the system. I believe it will cost her votes she deserves but she will win because the GOP nominee, in addition to being an evil fucker, will not be likeable either.
Baud
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): agree on all points.
Chyron HR
Hey, the Great Reconciliation lasted almost a whole hour. That’s wonderful.
Emma
@Kropadope: I don’t know the answer to any of those things. But that wasn’t the original question.
Joel
I do love that she addressed “south don’t count” in her opening statement. That talking point can’t die quickly enough.
Baud
@Chyron HR:
People are waiting to see what Sanders will do next. It might take a few days.
MomSense
@Betty Cracker:
I discovered that most of the pet supply/feed stores offer a claw trimming service. It’s $7 and worth every penny. My dogs always get really nervous when I do their claws because they sense how nervous I am. They move around and I’m more likely to make a mistake.
Taking the dog for her mani pedi is much less stressful. The staff makes a big fuss over her and gives her treats.
OzarkHillbilly
@Cermet: He has been with us here for 6 years and now all of a sudden it has happened twice in 2 months. I’m just gonna start taking him into the groomers a few times a year.
Kropadope
@Emma:
You don’t know the answer to any of those things because you, like too many others here, have a raging hate on for the man which you need to bring down for the risk of priapism. The answer to all those things is “no.” He’s been clear in his intent to support the party from day one.
ETA: I’ve gone back through the chain of responses, I’m not sure what “original question” you are referring to, so please enlighten me. Otherwise, what I said was intended as a direct response to your remark and should be interpreted as such.
Applejinx
@Emma:
@Princess:
Here’s the thing: screw party loyalty, you’d have to be insane not to see that blind party loyalty is a negative now.
Bernie being re-elected as an Independent Senator (and that’s not up to you: good luck taking him away from us Vermonters now! We are very proud of him) is right for his constituency, better for the Democrats, and better for the left.
Why?
Because when he sides with the Dems, as he usually does, it really means something: and if he does NOT side with the Dems that’s a big fucking red flag right there. When Democrats do the right things Bernie sides with them and there’s an element of ‘bipartisan’ to that. Tripartisan? Depends on whether you call a pile of republican tire rims and anthrax ‘partisan’.
Anybody here who gets assdamaged about Bernie going home and continuing to be Bernie the Independent Socialist (but now, representing a nationwide/global constituency) does not even understand what happened in this primary season. Football jersey politics got us into this mess. We should never fall for that shit again, ever.
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
What does “football-jersey politics” even mean?
Betty Cracker
@debbie: It’s a line I’ve heard from several Sanders supporters that seems to imply that Democrats who feel strongly about supporting the party and working through it for change are mindlessly cheering their home team instead of focusing on reallllly important stuff. It’s a steaming load of horseshit, IMO.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kropadope: Still rude, huh?
OzarkHillbilly
In non election news: Federal judge approves agreement between Ferguson, Justice Department
I just love people who think constitutional rights should be allocated on a cost/benefit basis. Don’t you?
Betty Cracker
@Applejinx:
“Blind” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. I don’t see anyone exhibiting blind loyalty but rather asserting that there’s value in what we’ve built as Democrats. And BTW, I think it was Sanders’ attacks on the party that came back and bit him on the ass last night.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: what’s precious are the people who think the benefit is zero.
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
Ah, thanks. Google only brought back 2 results, so I was lost.
nutella
@Applejinx:
Perhaps their employer could do something about them?
I hope Sanders is now analyzing his various actions and statements of the past week and will dump whoever in the campaign supported the Vatican trip, the reaction to the NYT ‘unqualified’ headline without actually reading the article, etc. A lot of mistakes this week so he should be able to figure out who is advising him to make these mistakes and give them the boot.
Applejinx
@Betty Cracker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States
Way to flatly deny that Wobblies, Socialists and third parties have ever done anything, apart from dying in wars against the labor movement :P
You can’t have the assertion that ‘only Democrats made all good things and nobody else ever amounted to anything’. And nobody is saying Democrats can’t be a majority or governing coalition. But requiring membership in order to have anything to do with governance? That’s creepy.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Baud:
SEE! I’m not even likable in small doses online! :)
Emma
@Kropadope: AAAND the insults from Bernie’s “better angels” start. Unlike yourself, I have never fallen in love with a politician, having learned a long time ago that they’re human like the rest of us and not the bringers of Yahweh’s tablets. All I want is someone whose policies AND procedures seem, in my judgment, to get better results. And as far as your contempt for the Democratic party members go, it tells me exactly what I need to know. You’re an authoritarian, but from the left rather than the right. You want the leftist version of Cruz.
Baud
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): Takes one to know one.
Aimai
@Kropadope: his campaign manager just said in tv they would go after the superdelegates. I get that you like bernie but how is he not responsible for what his campaign staff are saying and doing. As for the other excuse ( he was misled?) sure. So what? It is an argument he has repeated and that his followers took up with vigor. What is with the soft bigotry of low expectations for lifetime male politicians? At what point do you assign any responsibility to bernie? Clinton got blamed plenty for hiring mark penn!
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Applejinx:
I’ll happily donate to anybody that the Democrats decide to run against the old fool, should they decide on some institutional payback. Hell, I’d consider donating to a nonrepulsive GOP challenger to him if we get a three vote Senate majority.
I dislike him, his agenda, his message, his handlers, his voice and his face.
I even hate his stupid glasses.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Applejinx:
“They’re coming to take me away, haha hehe
to the Funny Farm…”
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Baud: I got an e-mail from “Bernie” this morning. It was a little more subdued than previous ones, but it’s still the “we are going to win with your help and your money” kinda thing. It wasn’t quite as strident about Corruption™ and so forth, so it seems like he recognizes the math but is trying to put on a strong face.
But, looking at the Cornacki/Weaver clip in the previous thread, I was struck by something Weaver said. (roughly) “… the Democrats …” The all-but-stated position is that Bernie and his campaign (still) aren’t Democrats. Weaver is still pointing to the national polls saying that Bernie would win in November, so it doesn’t matter how far behind he is in the delegates or the popular vote – the party should pick the person who the polls (not the Democratic voters) say is better in the fall.
Some of that is spin – they have to have some sort of story to tell people in states that haven’t voted yet. But if he really thinks that (if he really thinks that, even at this late stage, that Democratic voters and Democratic party member have effectively no say in picking their party’s nominee), then it’s no wonder why they’ve run their campaign the way they have. That’s why they cry about closed primaries. That’s why they keep beating up on Hillary by regurgitating Teabagger talking points (Corrupt™, Untrustworthy™, etc.) in the hopes of getting non-Democratic votes. That’s why they have discounted the traditional base of the Party (AA voters). That’s why they haven’t cared about down-ticket races thus far. They’ve been running a lefty version of Trump’s campaign – the system is so broken that we have to tear it down and let
TrumpBernie do what he wants. It was a doomed strategy on the Democratic side (outsiders can win that way – look at Eisenhower – but it’s successful once in 100 years or so). It’s delusional at this time when Hillary is so popular with the Party and with Democratic voters.If they don’t change their rhetoric after continuing to lose the big important states in the next few weeks, then I have little hope that they’ll work to bring the Party together. I hope Hillary’s team is gaming this out, and thinking about ways to win over Bernie’s idealistic voters even as they marginalize him as a political force – if necessary. I hope I’m wrong about that. :-(
One saving grace is that nobody watches MSNBC so all this inside-baseball stuff probably doesn’t matter. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@The Thin Black Duke: And still “adope”.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
Wonder if Sanders listens to the stupid stuff that surrogate Cornel West says at Sanders rallies?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Betty Cracker: The Democratic Party and the Republican Party are brands; you have certain expectations of what you get when a candidate runs under that brand. It’s generally the case, but there are exceptions.
Applejinx
@nutella: I hope so too. Not sure about the Vatican trip: people in Italy were real excited to see Bernie, and the fact is, he and the Pope have some very important common interests and this goes way beyond politics. I’m glad he went.
It’s not about winning at this point: you’d have to think the Clinton campaign is weak to believe that, and shyeah right! I’ve said all along, tough lady, smart and determined campaign, truly formidable opponent.
Now it’s time to see what that means: which means Bernie must switch over to ‘maximizing adoption of the platform he ran on’ and ‘as much transference of his voter base to supporting the Democratic nominee’.
They are NOT automatically Dems just because Republicans are horrible. Nor do they see themselves as such. It’s coalition politics and the stakes are very high indeed, and much could be gained if it’s done artfully. But the coalition must be made: insisting the Bernie people are automatically Dems and must be disciplined into line is an unforced error that mustn’t happen.
Hillary has to lead better than Bernie did, and Hillary has to control her advisors and political hacks better than Bernie did. That seems possible.
Aimai
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): you know who else was not likeable? Elizabeth warren. I had numerous people tell me–especially liberal men–that they difnt like her. She had to fight hard for her seat. You know who is adored now? Liz warren. There was a whole article about this online arguing that the american public is very uncomfortable with women running and asking for power. But ok with them after they get it. Im not worried. Politics is for professionals and she. Is a professional.
Betty Cracker
@Applejinx: Oddly, Wikipedia doesn’t list the Wobbly, socialist and third-party presidents of the United States, and since we’re discussing presidential politics, they’d be relevant. Perhaps you can name them? And nobody said anything about requiring membership “to have anything to do with governance,” so you can climb down off that cross too.
I don’t have a problem with Sanders running for president as a Democrat or holding a senate seat as an independent. But I do have a problem with his campaign publicly tearing down the party in the runup to an election that we’ll need to win to keep the Orcs from controlling the SCOTUS for the next 30 years. Apparently the voters of NY also had a problem with that.
amk
Amusing to see the bs bots start with the unnecessary vitriol and then whine if they are paid back in the same coin. Grow up ffs.
Applejinx
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Oh, fuck West. Don’t have to apologize for him or brush him under the rug anymore. It’s like having to politely not notice Bill Clinton saying dumb things. West brought a lot of the us-against-them hostility to the campaign, he can fuck right off. Straphanger.
bemused
There was no way I was going to watch cnn or msnbc political panelists’ slice and dice analyses last night. I stopped only to find out Hillary and the Donald won big. When I heard Howard Fineman say something about Trump showing he was being more serious in his afterwords, I felt like retching. Oh please, my spouse said Trump had to get in how successful he/hotels is/are.
Kropadope
@The Thin Black Duke: From my observations, that’s the best way to fit in around here. I thought her characterization was unfair and when I tried, at first politely, to get her to clarify what exactly she meant by it, she just basically dismissed my question. Just because you don’t agree with me, doesn’t mean I need to be a saint.
You’re one to talk anyway. I had been having perfectly rational conversations with people all day yesterday and you’d just pipe in occasionally with a rude remark and offer nothing else to the conversation, like in the most recent instance where I offered an alternative interpretation of a quote someone excerpted because, well, I thought they misinterpreted it. And I wasn’t really being rude about it. I got a little rude about people telling me I don’t have a right to express my opinion, but can you blame me?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Aimai: Sen. Warren did some Twitter hit tweets on Sen Cruz. It was pretty damn funny.
Kay
@Kropadope:
Sanders could have done a lot with his successes so far. He could have advocated for Democrats to develop a small donor base, which would make them less dependent on large donors. He’s been competitive in a primary with small donors + labor unions. He could have shown how a Lefty option at the top could carry along a state race.
It just seems like a waste not to leverage all of those votes and money from his supporters. To me, he’s not doing a good job with what his supporters gave him, which I find nearly unforgivable, especially because so many of them are so young.
He’ll end up with an email list after all that volunteer effort and money. I think he owes them more return than that.
Applejinx
@Betty Cracker: Yeah, we agree there. The only way that could’ve possibly helped is if Bernie got the nom, and even then it was a horrible tactic, politically. Now it absolutely has to stop.
I’m seeing some of my lefty facebook folks looking somber and suddenly more concilatory than they were on Monday. I’m not terribly surprised. It’s all posturing to stake out space in the ideasphere, and then when the practical options shrink down, people adjust.
We don’t have to give up ‘electing a liberal President to push the rock leftward’, but the instant Hillary won New York, we do have to give up ‘and that liberal President can’t be Hillary’. Apparently it does have to be Hillary, which is a heck of an argument for the strength of her campaign: that at least is reassuring.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Applejinx:
If you want to use the resources and power that millions of people have built over years but not want to be part of that organization and in fact want to bad mouth that organization in public to the benefit to the opponents of that organization then you are the problem and do not deserve to resources and power of that group.
The Democratic Party is not perfect, we have a lot of problems, the sort of problems that happen when you try to form millions into some sort of coherent group with common goals. But the thing is that didn’t appear out of thin air, it was built by the hard work of millions of people over many decades. Doing the dirty work even in non-election years, developing the resources to win elections and get shit done. Parties are not built on ideas, they are built on people. People who give up time and money to make ideas happen. If you are not willing to help in that effort why should you expect to get all the benefit?
I started as a Bernie supporter because I like his message but over the course of the primaries I believe he showed himself to be unprepared to be President. I was willing to lend him the tools millions of people like me built and maintain despite his unwillingness to lend a hand. I am not, however, willing to let him denigrate the party simply because millions more people prefer a different candidate and not him.
If you do not like the Democratic Party what are you doing to change it? Whining on BJ is not going to do it. Voting for someone else will not make the party better (in fact it is a large part of how we got here). What you have to do is hard and not fun and lacking in any glory or fame. Join the party, voice your opinions, convince people your ideas can win elections, make calls, knock on doors. If enough people agree with you you win, if not well that is democracy, sorry. But it will take years it ain’t happening this year.
Jeffro
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: “like”
Baud
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
Damn, son. That was righteous. And right on.
Betty Cracker
@Applejinx: I agree 100%. Onward and upward!
Kropadope
@Aimai:
Not what I said, so I’ll just leave that alone.
The second possibility I offered, that he misinterpreted the quotes on his own, assigns responsibility to Bernie. My ultimate conclusion; that regardless of how he came to believe the wrong notion that Hillary Clinton called him unqualified, he shouldn’t have said what he said; also assigns blame to Bernie in no uncertain terms.
That’s their right and if, by some astronomically unlikely occurrence, Bernie managers to pass her in elected delegates, the supers should probably switch to him. But only in that instance. That doesn’t mean the campaign shouldn’t continue outreach efforts. I don’t mean the idiotic harassment by unhinged supporters, that needs to stop.
Kay
@Kropadope:
There’s something else about campaign finance and it’s the consultants and hangers-on. Democrats are as vulnerable to frauds and grifters as Republicans are. The 2004 presidential campaign was chock full of them.
I would think someone who is running against huge money in the campaign industrial complex would be more savvy about hiring these highly-paid dopes he hires. Why didn’t he bring up some talented younger person who was making 32k a year as an organizer? There are thousands of them. That would fit his narrative.
Aimai
@Applejinx: people in itsly were really excited to see a guy who flew in for a ten minute speech at a small conference held inside a fortified, restricted, theocratic state? Any puctures of italians turning out for bernie? I remember some great pix of obama in berlin but none of bernie other than the one of him brushing by the woman head of the comittee to get to evo morales.
Baud
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
The Democratic Party is essentially like a union in a “right to work” state. Nonmembers like to criticize it for not being good enough, but will happily accept the benefits without contributing any dues.
Applejinx
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
That’s why Bernie lost. I totally accept that. I think things were going pretty well in the ‘kumbaya’ phase but once it started to go sour, yeah. Bernie didn’t deserve to win New York, and I blame Devine and Weaver, but they were exploiting faults in Bernie for their own benefit. I’d like to see Bernie’s platform as President, and he’s a decent man but so was/is Carter.
Well said, sir.
I do have to come back at you a bit, though…
Who deserves the resources and power of the Bernie campaign? Hillary?
Because it would damn well help the general election if somehow it could be arranged that the only non-Republican candidate DID have on tap the resources, power, and votes of the Bernie campaign. They’re not all Democrats. Do you want their votes for the cause?
Aimai
@Kropadope: i will let the other bj’ers judge for themselves. Bernies campaign errors, magnified by his more rabid fans, are inexcusable and down to his lack of leadership and discipline. You can make all the excuses for him you want but i see no reason to.
Lee
@Kropadope: Funny thing is, I thought the same thing. I really like that top/jacket/whatever. It looks good & I bet it is really comfortable.
Gin & Tonic
@Applejinx:
Do you have any actual evidence of that?
Anyway, as far as I know, they don’t vote in the New York Democratic Party’s primary.
Mai.naem.mobile
I have been disappointed in Bernie in the last month. I hope this does not mean he loses his Senate seat to a Republican whenever he’s up. Can’t afford to lose a seat even if it’s to a liberal Republican from VT.
Kropadope
@Kay:
Even before the NY primary, he started shifting toward asking his supporters to pay more attention to the downballot. I fully expect to see that effort to grow since he has no realistic path to the nomination and has a professed desire to keep Republicans out of office at all levels. It’ll be easier to support other candidates when he’s not running an expensive race reliant on small donations from behind a well-known, well-financed candidate.
MattF
I’m happy to see Hilz win, and especially happy to see her beat all the polling numbers. There’s a lot of concern trolling about her supposed unpopularity– I count at least three WaPo opinion pieces specifically on that right now– and it’s been brought up constantly by the Sanders campaign. Maybe I’m a sucker, or maybe I’m just a corporate shill, but I don’t buy it. So sue me.
Kropadope
@Aimai:
What excuses am I making? Literally that whole post I was pointing out what I saw as faults in what Bernie was doing. But because I haven’t declared him the devil means I’m making excuses, apparently.
Emma
@Kropadope: Actually, you’re right in one thing. I should have expanded properly.
Here’s how I see the difference between Bernie-as-a-Democrat and Bernie-as-an-independent-who-caucuses-wth-Democrats.
I work in a mid-size unit within a larger institution. There’s a fair amount of politicking going on. Most of the time I can keep out of it and mind my own business but sometimes I have to participate for whatever reason. There are two groups in my institution as they interact with me. One, work friends, people who share my views and will work together to get something approved/passed/whatever; and two, work acquaintances, people I work with perfectly cordially but who I would never invite to my house without planning the post-visit disinfectant scouring first.
There are similar units within the larger one with which we interact constantly. Often I think their policies and procedures are much better and more logical than ours. What I would NOT do is to go against my own unit’s stated policies and procedures and blatantly support theirs. My primary loyalty is to my own unit, however much I might have fought against the policy during the original discussion.
The Democratic party is a very large mixed bag. As a member of the party, I may/will disagree with another Democrat, and even work against him/her to elect someone better. What I will not do is desert the party when it pisses me off and give aid and comfort to the enemy.
Bernie is an ally in matters of interest to Bernie. Which is fine. But there’s no loyalty to the overarching Democratic message. His dismissal of AA concerns and his contempt for a rules and procedures that have kept the party moving forward on basic issues make me see him only as an ally. Not a friend. I might work with him, but I do not trust him.
Applejinx
@Betty Cracker: Right on :)
I’m going to leave it at that, since maybe half of my posts are back to ‘able to talk to politics-junkies as if they’re internet friends’. Not bad for ‘less than one day after a drubbing in a horribly important political campaign with far too much at stake in every way’. I’m going to have some breakfast, and I hope Bernie is doing likewise and not taking calls from campaign managers. May he take a couple days to decompress and remember:
-it’s about the platform, not him
-some of the platform is better than none (and we can probably get a hell of a lot of it).
I hope other raving Berniacs can do likewise. We MUST get some of this stuff dealt with, and there’s no chance of it with Trump or Cruz or Kasich.
And as far as that little bird that flew to him, much like the hopes of several generations:
If you love something set it free. <3
WereBear
I do have wonky love for Hillary. She understands how laws fit together, I must say.
I can’t shake the feeling that she has to cut lose her husband’s influence, and his friends. She must be her own President.
And I have the strong feeling that Bill is not well.
Ah, just musings. While I am at it, thanks to all the fine folks (possibly from here!) who contributed to my Way of Cats fund drive. We do this together.
Gin & Tonic
@Kay: Devine is nothing but an amoral mercenary.
Kay
@Kropadope:
Democrats really will pay attention to where young people are going. They won’t do it because they’re good people or dying to go further Left- they’ll do it because they want those people to identify as Democrats. Obviously Sanders has struck a chord with younger people (and it’s diverse- in a lot of the states the divide was AGE- it crossed demographics). Democrats are not going to ignore young women, for example. His supporters gave him that power. I feel like he has a duty to use it in some productive way rather than allowing these horrible campaign people to piss it away in pursuit of their monthly paycheck.
If he was shocked by how much money he raised (and I think he was) he better figure it out quick. I read Teachout over-performed Sanders. She’s supposed to be one of his candidates.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Applejinx:
The resources of the Sanders campaign might make nice auxiliaries to what is in place already but given that it was literally pieced together in the last few months based on a cult of personality can it be counted on? How well organized & managed is it? Will it produce when needed? Caused-based candidates like Sanders have brought many great new people into the party but few stick around & do the grunt work when the personality that waved the banner is gone. The Obama organization was masterful, the people who built that were genius and it actually was much better in many areas that what the party had but it still took the two working together. I don’t see the Sanders organization as being that slick or that powerful. I hope that many will have enjoyed the experience & seek to continue to try and change the world. I suspect most will not but that is standard. People will donate and vote for the person they want and if disgruntled Sanders supporters vote for Drumpf of Stein, well that is democracy & we all get to live with the results. But what is the message that vote sends? How did voting for Nader in 2000 work? What message did the party and the nation take from that election? What you think you are saying & what is heard are not always the same.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
I’m late for work already, would love to talk more but gotta run
Hpe you all have a great day!
Kropadope
@Kay:
I agree and I believe that’s what he’ll ultimately do. Though I would like the transition to happen a lot quicker than I actually expect it will.
cleek
this time around, things are different because of Trump – but in a normal, non-hostile-takeover year does the GOP have this kind of petulant “I Will Never Vote For XYZ!” when one primary candidate loses?
Betty Cracker
@WereBear: I see Hillary Clinton as a real-life Leslie Knope type (if you’re familiar with Parks & Rec), earnest and wonky. She’s not charismatic in the way Bill was and Obama is, and she does much better when she doesn’t try to be.
Agreed about the state of Bill Clinton’s health, too — he looks so haggard. I hope he’s okay. I like the old rogue despite his many faults.
AnonPhenom
nice to see Hillary put a hand out to the Sanders supporters. More of this “gracious winner” please. as for the ridiculous notion that somehow he will now be a persona non grata with the Dems in the Senate, LOL LOL LOL. ROTFFLOL!!
Yeah, there are no progressive Dem Senators with Presidential aspirations who would love to buddy up to Bernie now. Amirite?
Not to mention it sill take 60 votes for closure.
This primary has made some people lose they damn minds.
Percysowner
@Betty Cracker: You might want to check around. My vet trims claws for free. I just bring them in and someone does it. Or if you ever take them to doggie daycare, they may do it. If all else fails, look at rescues in the area. The one I volunteered at clipped both cat and dog nails for free and it wasn’t just for volunteers.
cleek
@AnonPhenom:
but that’ll be an issue only if the Dems can get 59 Senate seats.
Kay
@Kropadope:
It worries me a little because if younger people are disgusted with the campaign process now (and to me they seem to be- I think it’s because it’s more transparent- it’s easier to see thru it) they will be really disgusted if Sanders doesn’t deliver something for all that money and effort they put in. That was the risk he took. The Democratic Party will survive- I’m not worried about the ultra-savvy. I’m worried about his younger supporters.
rikyrah
The Transatlantic Slave Trade Database
Some 12.5 million Africans were taken from their homes and forced aboard slave ships that were destined for the New World. About 10.7 million people survived the horrors of the Middle Passage between 1526 and 1866, only to end up in bondage on sugar, rice, cotton, and tobacco plantations throughout the Americas and the Caribbean.
The transatlantic slave trade is the largest forced migration in history. Until recently, however, it was all but impossible to measure the trade’s true dimensions: There were simply too many records among too many geographically dispersed archives. But, today, the slave trade’s broad outlines and its subtler trends can be gauged because of a remarkably collegial and tech-savvy project called the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database.
The database was born in 1990 in the British Public Records Office, when two scholars struck up a conversation about their respective projects. David Eltis, who is now the Robert W. Woodruff Professor of History at Emory University, was gathering data on the early history of the British slave trade. Stephen Behrendt, who teaches at the Victoria University of Wellington in New Zealand, was doing the same for its later years. They decided to combine their efforts to create a collaborative platform for further scholarship.
With $1,025,644 from NEH and help from the W. E. B. DuBois Institute for African and African American Research at Harvard University, Eltis and Behrendt were soon consolidating the data that they and many other historians had spent years culling from tax registers, port books, captains’ logs, private letters, and a myriad of other documents. They released the first edition of the database on CD-ROM in 1999 and, after integrating a wave of new information, launched an open-access website called Voyages in 2008. To date, the database includes data from 57 contributors, reflecting 34,948 voyages—an estimated 66 to 80 percent of all slaving expeditions to cross the Atlantic during the trade’s three-and-a-half centuries.
TylerF
@aimai Is it possible that people are overestimating the impact of Sanders just a touch? Even if Clinton had run unopposed in the primary there would have been a sizeable “no” vote, mostly from those who have a hard time pulling the lever for a women. My guess is half of Sanders votes represent a generic No Women vote. It’s kinda like how not all republicans are racist, but if you’re a racist, you’re probably a republican. Not all Sanders voters are afraid of voting for a women, but if you’re a democrat who is afraid of girl cooties, then you’re probably voting for Sanders. Eg, say you like to throw money at women and call them whores, yet you believe single payer health care is a right.
No matter who ran against Clinton, they were going to get 30-40% of the primary vote. She was not going to beat O’Mally 97-3. Sanders’s is going to take his 2/5ths revolution and go back to being a fairly anonymous senator from a tiny state. Within a year, his name will barely be mentioned. If he were a republican, then we would be graced with his presence every week on sunday morning. He will be around as long as the media views him as a foil for Clinton. Once the general starts, that won’t be necessary any longer.
satby
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: just had to quite you (with attribute) at my buddy the journo’s FB feed. Because that was awesome.
Elizabelle
@MattF:
Saw that. Despicable. Reminding me to cancel Sunday delivery. (Still do online.)
gvg
Democracy is group rule, not dictatorship. Ours is supposed to require many people to agree in order to do something, such as the majority of both houses of Congress and the President. The the Supreme Court needs to have no reason to say stop. This is supposed to keep one person or just a few from imposing their own interests on the rest of us. Anyone who cannot approve of consensus building is not supposed to gain power in our system. Sanders dissing whole groups of voters who disagreed with him, AND lots of representatives who have been elected by other groups is not meant to be sucessful and thank goodness. I saw a bit of why it is bad when Bush II was ignoring facts and opinion polls and wiser counsel. Somehow lately we have as a population become convinced we should not ever have to not have our way totally and that there is something morally wrong with negotiation and compromise. Sanders and many of his supporters are doing this. His record suggests he has always been like this. It’s not good democracy, and he has been wrong on this for decades.
Earlier on I was one of those that was offended that this guy was running as a Democrat when he had only been an ally for decades. Others explained it was OK in Vermont for reasons. There was an explicit statement supposedly from him that he would in the future run as a Democrat. Maybe that was not a real statement or maybe he just got his feelings hurt but I have been furious since I heard he has filed for reelection as a Senator as an independant. I consider him a liar. He always had this problem to overcome by the way. Many sections of the country do care about the party. It matters that you help others. Not cover up corruption, but help with the things you are supposed to,it’s part of the job. Nothing in our system gets done with only one vote and it’s not supposed to. You have to be a part of societies solution to anarchy which is government. Parties are what its called. that doesn’t mean you vote 100% party line, it means you talk, compromise, vote for things that you don’t care for because other people convince you it will help other people. I also want an elected official to care about building continuity. I don’t want everything to fall apart everytime some official happens to die. things like parties are useful for that. If they didn’t yet exist, we would be inventing them right now.
randy khan
I finally have a delusional Bernie post by a Facebook friend. It’s a map showing the counties in New York won by Clinton and Sanders and asking if this is what winning looks like. Of course, the combined population of the counties Sanders won is less than the population of New York City (let alone the other blue counties on the map), but never mind.
satby
@Princess: since that’s a copy/paste from the previous thread, I’ll just copy/paste my reply:
He’s not in the Democratic Party, his reelection papers for the Senate are filed as an independent. He’s an opportunist and he’s already burned a few bridges he might have had to influence things. And I very much doubt he’ll behave like a mensch going forward.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Betty Cracker: I thought Bill looked very good in the clip of him voting with HRC yesterday. Previously he looked to me like a tired old man, but he seemed rested and ready to go yesterday. I had been worried about him earlier, but he seemed fine.
Cheers,
Scott.
satby
@Baud: we usually appear to agree but not this time. Bernie is all about Bernie, he’s not going to be the conscience of the Democratic party.
p.a.
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): Yes, this is a generational question; what will the Bernistas do beyond this primary. Clean Gene? The Dems need these people, esp at the state and local level which unfortunately doesn’t seem to be sexy enough for your generic Dem (mea culpa etiam). How much will Bernie’s actions over the next few months affect this is a question second only to this election (also too how much of his support is in states with weak/moribund/corrupt Dem organizations). Initial signs not positive.
Kropadope
@Kay: Well, the best things he’s in a position to produce right now are contributions to party platform and, assuming he can get his donor list to pony up a few bux for Congressional candidates comparable to what they got to Sanders himself, better odds of an improved Congress with at least a D-controlled Senate.
The only way that latter thing will happen, though, is if he pushes his supporters to support the Democrats more broadly. I fully expect he will try, especially if he is truly serious about the Revolution talk. He’s been clear right from the beginning, one man can’t do it all himself and now that Bernie almost certainly won’t be the nominee the focus on his campaign has to be on the national and state legislatures. It may not happen today, but has to soon.
rikyrah
Bill That Angers Saudi Arabia Splits Senate Democrats, Obama
April 18, 2016 — 6:55 PM EDT
Two U.S. Senate Democratic leaders said they’ll continue to push a Sept. 11-related bill that has angered Saudi Arabia and is opposed by President Barack Obama.
The measure, which would allow Saudi Arabia to be held responsible in U.S. courts for any role in the 2001 terrorist attacks, threatens to create a major rift with a key U.S. ally just as the president is gearing up for a diplomatic visit and pits Obama against many top Democrats.
“If Saudi Arabia participated in terrorism, of course they should be able to be sued,” Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, the No. 3 Democratic leader, said in a statement. Allowing a lawsuit by victims of the attacks to proceed, and the Saudi government to be held accountable if it participated, ensures the Arab kingdom will “pay a price,” he said.
But Obama said Monday that he is “opposed” to the bill. “This is not just a bilateral U.S.-Saudi issue,” he said in an interview with Charlie Rose that aired Monday night on the “CBS Evening News.”
“If we open up the possibility that individuals in the United States can routinely start suing other governments, then we are also opening up the United States to being sued” by individuals in other countries, he said.
Betty Cracker
@TylerF:
I disagree for two reasons: Number one, the guy raised metric fucktons of cash. And secondly, he tapped into a populist yearning on the left. It may not have been large enough to win the nomination, but it’s real. We’ll see Democrats and left-of-center independents trying to capture that lightning in a jar for years to come, IMO. And that’ll be a good thing, if Sanders handles his exit well.
satby
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): hey, you’re likable enough ;)
Kay
@Kropadope:
There really is something to build on in Congress. I would prefer states, but for some reason no one is interested in states. There’s a liberal faction in the US Senate and they’re powerful- Brown and Warren- and there’s definitely a group in the House-Keith Ellison is the example. Brown endorsed Clinton and he really does work well with others so that seems like a natural alliance, but it would take humility and I don’t think those two men Sanders hired have any of that.
satby
@OzarkHillbilly: lots of vets will do a few claw removal if it gets injured repeatedly. I’m not normally an advocate for claw removals, but it really helped one chow mix I had who had constant problems with her back leg dew claws.
rikyrah
John Ridley has hooked up with Idris for a project?
YES!!
Nice! Idris Elba and John Ridley Team Up for London-Set Series on 1970s Black Political Radicals
By Tambay A. Obenson | Shadow and Act
April 20, 2016 at 8:45AM
This should be solid!
John Ridley will write, direct and executive produce “Guerrilla,” a new 6-part miniseries set to air on the Sky Atlantic network (in the UK) that centers on a couple whose passion propels them into making the leap from political activism to radical militancy. For those in the USA, the Showtime cable TV network will air the series, which is obviously great!
Idris Elba will co-star and serve as an executive producer through his Green Door Pictures. Ridley will write the majority of the episodes and will direct the first two.
Cat48
@rikyrah:
Schumer is co-sponsor of the Bill. I think he’s probably just pandering to win votes in NY, with John Corning, no less. I dislike Schumer & do not want him to be Majority Leader. He constantly worked against Obama. Wish Harry would stay.
magurakurin
@Applejinx:
Go ahead and believe. She’s going to be a good president. And people with your energy and passion will be needed in spades during the battle with Trump and beyond.
Kropadope
@p.a.:
I don’t know about the others, but I made my first political donation of the campaign season last night to Hillary Clinton and once I have a little more disposable income I plan on doing the same for good Senate and House candidates too. I remember there was a candidate for an open Senate seat in MD, for example, whom I really liked (forget her name right now).
Kropadope
@Kay:
Well, if Sanders intends as I believe he does, those two will need to get on board. If they won’t, then he should send them packing.
aimai
@Kropadope: Stop with the hyperbole. No one is demanding you say anything at all about Bernie. This isn’t some kind of speak bitterness campaign. But when discussing Bernie and his campaign you choose to give him the doubt, always, and I don’t. I don’t because I see him as having run an ugly, divisive, campaign which targeted Hillary personally, in which he took advantage of Democratic money and data and attacked the party and party leadership personally and directly, in which he undermined the current President, in which he was duplicitous about his actual votes for militarization, in which he denounced HRC for a vote she didn’t take on a crime bill which he supported, in which he attacked the Superdelegate system as corrupt and anti democratic until he and his campaign manager decided to appeal to the Superdelegates to overturn the actual pledged delegate count, etc…etc…etc… For those reasons I did not see Bernie as being any kind of great political leader with basically good intentions. I, personally, see him as being extremely culpable in running a campaign which, taken to its logical conclusion, would have destroyed any chance for an effective Democratic leader to take the helm after Obama to continue his work. I think he may have retreated to Vermont to get his head on straight and figure out how to climb down off his high horse, and off the high expectations he raised in his more rabid and less informed followers, so that we can win the general election. If he acts like a Mensch, I’ll treat him like a Mensch. But so far he hasn’t behaved like one. Again–your mileage may vary. Perfectly fine. I don’t really care. But based on my experience of Bernie and Bernie like self proclaimed iconoclasts and marxists, like many in my own family, I am not under any illusions that the real Bernie is the cuddly grandpa his followers think they know. He has run a selfish, destructive, campaign and only he can pull out and decide to work for the good of the community against the Republicans.
Cat48
@Kropadope:
I like her too, Donna Edwards, and she’s running against Chris Van Hollen, whom I also like. We will know next Tuesday who wins the Primary. If you want her to win, better donate before next Tues. The race is a sqeaker right now, a tossup.
TylerF
@Betty Cracker I would say it greatly depends on what he does with the money. Will he redirect towards others? Because currently he has shown an ability to raise money for Bernie Sanders. He won’t have the influence he or his supporters want until he/they show an ability to raise money for people not named Bernie Sanders. Without that, the cash he raised might as well have been used for a giant burning man bonfire.
Dan
@randy khan:
You see this on the GOP side too, gesturing at the empty red states as PROOF that they represent more of America. Acreage != population
aimai
@Betty Cracker: You might say Obama followed Dean in terms of fundraising (remember put up the bat?) and Sanders followed both Obama and Dean. I don’t see Bernie as at all surprsing, really. In a two person race the one who runs as an outsider is always going to reap the benefits of the eternal unhappiness (righteous unhappiness) of some percentage of the voters.
satby
@Baud: Hey now, tapioca pudding still has your name on it over here.
AnonPhenom
@cleek:
…or any combination of Dems, Republicans and……Oh yeah, fuckin Bernie…adding up to 60.
primary be making people lose they damn minds.
MattF
@Dan: These maps are useful for debunking that particular error.
geg6
@Randy P:
McGinty is a tool of the Rendell faction of the PA Democratic party. She’s the one I’m never going to vote for. I’m torn between voting for Sestak or Fetterman. Fetterman isn’t going to win, but I so love the idea of him going up against Toomey and long to see him on the Senate floor towering over Yertle and Lindsay Graham in his black cargo shorts and tattoos. But Sestak is also close to my heart. I did a lot of work for him last time out, when he almost pulled it out against Toomey. He’s been one of the best politicians I’ve ever had the pleasure to work for. He sends me birthday and Christmas cards every year. He has sent emails continuously, long before this campaign began, and, until recently, none of them were drumming me for cash but were just “hey, keeping you informed on what I’ve been up to” emails. His ads are, hands down, the best of all of them. I sent him a donation yesterday (I’ve also sent several to Fetterman, just because I love him so). As a woman, I’d love to have a female senator representing me and my state. But Katie McGinty isn’t the one.
DCF
@aimai:
It would be wise not to demonize a primary candidate who is supported – widely – by the ‘next generation’ of Democratic and Progressive voters. Authenticity, consistency and courage are traits not to be blithely denigrated. That cohort will play an increasingly important role in both present and future elections.
More importantly, we need to take a thorough – and honest – look at the current policies and priorities of today’s Democratic Party:
Full Show 3/18/16: Thomas Frank on the State of the Democratic Party
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwHXhr0MWoo
Thomas Frank: What’s the Matter with the Democrats?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w4I1c8VnbI
geg6
@Betty Cracker:
It costs us $20 a pop to have Koda and Lovey’s nails trimmed.
Kropadope
@aimai:
You were claiming I refused to criticize him even as that was literally what I was doing. You make a bunch of claims in this particular post with varying degrees of credibility, but since you continue to be unfair in describing the easily verifiable statements I made on this thread (in addition to our other recent interactions), I have decided facts and credibility don’t matter to you.
So, I’ll make a mental note of you as being a troll and try my best in the future to ignore you, but not before recommending you learn about capitalization and paragraphs.
satby
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Succinctly and clearer than I have been in my replies. I never felt the Bernie was acting in good faith as far as the party he recently joined for a chance to expand his personal brand. Or acting in good faith in the statements he makes to followers, including several of the younger members of my extended family. This I especially agree with:
Miss Bianca
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Dang – I think I just got a little dust in my eye…yeah, that must be it…
Kropadope
@Cat48:
Well, given that I’m out of state and didn’t remember her name, just a vague positive impression, I think it’s safe to say I don’t have a dog in this particular fight. My down-ballot donations are going to be focused primarily on the GE, anyway.
geg6
@Betty Cracker:
Bravo! I say, bravo!
Miss Bianca
@Applejinx: I have enjoyed watching you come around. : )
cleek
@AnonPhenom:
see a lot of Republicans joining Dems to break filibusters, do ya?
Keith G
The contest is over. Actually, in my mind it’s been over for a while we just had to make sure that there were no surprises.
Since the contest is over, it seems to me there is no need for anyone to have to prove how right Hillary Clinton is for the nomination (or to fluff their own ego) by denigrating Bernie Sanders and/or his supporters.
To the extent possible, it’s time to “yes… and” Bernie supporters. When it is not possible, just ignore those who are wilfully antagonistic since there’s nothing to be gained by continuing what has become at times an infantile discussion.
There is an amazing amount of heavy lifting for this society and our political party to do in the very near future. Treating intra-party conflict as if it were roller derby is not an effective way for us to become a stronger party.
Miss Bianca
@Randy P: When in doubt: more women in office.
rikyrah
Had never heard of this
RLJ Entertainment Picks Up Doc on 1st African American Expedition to Tackle North America’s Highest Peak (Trailer)
By Tambay A. Obenson | Shadow and Act
April 14, 2016 at 6:44PM
Filmed 3 summers ago, and previously titled “Expedition Denali,” the now-titled “An American Ascent” follows 9 mountaineers who attempted to become the first all-African-American team to climb Denali (a.k.a. Mount McKinley) in Alaska, which rises to 20,320 feet above sea level.
Directed by Andrew Adkins and George Potter, the short version of the story goes… In the summer of 2013, the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS) brought together a group of men and women who made history as the first team of African Americans to blaze a trail up America’s highest peak – Denali – in part to mark the 100th anniversary of the peak’s first ascent, but also to build a legacy by paving a way for young people of color to get outside, get active, get healthy, become passionate about America’s wild places, and chase their own Denali-sized dreams
Betty Cracker
@Keith G: You’re right, of course, but where’s the fun in that? :)
rikyrah
Anyone from PA got the 4-1-1 on this guy?
……………………
A Member of “Bernie’s Army” Is Still Waiting for the Candidate’s Help
John Fetterman is running for Senate in Pennsylvania, one of the most expensive races in the country. He wants to know when the political revolution starts.
By Michelle Goldberg
John Fetterman, the populist mayor and long-shot Democratic Senate candidate, was one of the first elected officials in the country to endorse Bernie Sanders for president. He is, like Sanders, a political outsider. A tattooed giant—6-foot-8, more than 300 pounds—he’s spent the past 11 years presiding over Braddock, Pennsylvania, a largely black town outside Pittsburgh that was wrecked by the collapse of the local steel industry. Income inequality is at the center of his campaign. “I think there’s a great deal of overlap” between Sanders’ platform and his own, he tells me, “whether it’s a $15-an-hour living wage or health care, trade deals, a rigged economy.” Ideologically, the only real difference between the two men is that Fetterman is more in favor of gun control. He has the date of every homicide in Braddock since his election—nine in all—inked on his right arm.
……………………
Given the money and political power stacked against him, Fetterman says he needs Sanders’ help to have any chance next Tuesday, the same day as the Pennsylvania presidential primary. So far, however, it has not been forthcoming. There’s been no endorsement, no fundraising support, no joint appearances. Fetterman’s campaign finds this confounding. On the ground, he says, there’s enormous overlap between his supporters and the Sanders grassroots. (“The crowd at the Fishtown brewpub is young, liberal, urban. They rave about Sanders—and Fetterman,” says a recent Philadelphia Inquirer story.) In a three-way race, he believes, Sanders’ backing could be decisive; Fetterman estimates that he’ll win if he gets 60 or 70 percent of Sanders’ voters.
StellaB
@Miss Bianca: May I have some love for Ann Kirkpatrick, please? Maybe not the leftest of the lefties, but she stands a good chance of helping John McCain retire to a second career of Sunday morning talk shows.
japa21
A lot of the legacy of Bernie Sanders will be determined in the next few weeks.
Once it became apparent that she wasn’t going to win the nomination in 2008, Clinton kept campaigning but changed her campaign style. Early on she had been very aggressive against Obama, making some ridiculous claims, taking things he said out of context, working hard to marginalize him. Much like Sanders has done towards her this year.
Once it got to the point where she really only had a infinitesimal chance of winning, she kept campaigning but the personal attacks stopped. She then campaigned more to put her views out there and to start working to unite the party. If Sanders can do that…obviously he can, but the question is will he do that…he can leave a much better legacy for this campaign.
As many have said, I don’t think Sanders went into this to win but rather to make sure certain issues were discussed. I think he was surprised by the support he received and it did go to his head. I also think his lack of experience with having to run a big campaign made him vulnerable to the machinations of Devine and Weaver, who are not in this to advance Bernie’s ideas, but to enrich themselves.
He was, in effect, somewhat gullible. I have no problem with his continuing to campaign, just like I didn’t have a problem with Clinton continuing. And I think Clinton is showing a lot of graciousness to both him and his supporters by not calling for him to drop out of the race.
If he were a lot younger, then in 8 years we would probably see him be more Clintonesque in a campaign just as Clinton is campaigning in a more Obamaesque style this year.
FlipYrWhig
@rikyrah: I really liked Fetterman’s round of media appearances a few years back. I haven’t kept up with him, but going by the little I know of him, I wish him well. I can’t say I’m surprised that Sanders isn’t really doing anything to help non-Sanders candidates, because that guy isn’t really what you call a “joiner.”
However, I’m not sure it’s helpful to call Fetterman a “political outsider.” I think this is another one of those cases where the reporter/pundit means “has some atypical attributes” and says “outsider” because it sounds savvier. Fetterman doesn’t dress the part, but he’s been a nuts-and-bolts politician for a decade. Bernie Sanders, too, has a funny voice and funny hair and a brusque personality, but I wouldn’t call him an “outsider.” Trump is an outsider because, you know, he’s never been elected to anything and has no idea what government is, does, or can be.
LAO
@Miss Bianca:
That reminds me of a tee-shirt I had as a kid. ” Women belong in the House…and the Senate.”
Also, I had no idea how worried I was about Hillary winning New York — but I woke up this morning feeling like a thousand pounds were lifted off my shoulders.
gogol's wife
Open thread, so I’m just leaving this here for Mnemosyne, although she doesn’t seem to be around.
1. Cokie Roberts dumps on Hamilton, without mentioning “Hamilton.”
2. The “Hamilton” piano/vocal score is out! I just ordered it. I don’t expect it to be a great pianistic experience, but still.
Applejinx
@Miss Bianca: thanks to breakfast and DeTox tea. It soothes heartbern ;P :)
Betty Cracker is right. Since this is not about a person but a platform, and not the messenger but the message, we are not really in bad shape. In my lifetime (and I’m 47) I have never seen such a massive groundswell of progressive support, and for a very long time there Bernie kept it explicitly about the issues, to the point that it was a running gag. THAT is what turned out the people. Their existence is proven experimentally. I think the experiment worked.
There is no reason to assume Hillary won’t build this platform into the Democratic Party, permanently: I’m more impressed with her than with any of her advisors and blogposters, and though things could still go wrong I think she will correctly identify the mood of the electorate. Between Bernie and Trump, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist.
Randy P
@rikyrah: See geg6’s comment at #160. Fetterman is in her corner of the state. From where I sit he seems like kind of a long-shot outsider. But he does seem to be an interesting character.
Betty Cracker
@gogol’s wife: Wow, I agree with Cokie for once! When I heard the plan to keep Hamilton on the $10 and replace Jackson with a woman on the $20, I was all for it. I didn’t realize that meant no women on the front side of a bill until 2030! That’s bullshit, I say!
Poopyman
@Randy P: Having heard and met Sestak, I’d say vote for McGinty.
SiubhanDuinne
@gogol’s wife:
Well, she does say he’s “having a star turn on Broadway,” and links to the NYT review.
gogol's wife
@Betty Cracker:
I’m a bad feminist. I really don’t care about having a woman on money.
gogol's wife
@SiubhanDuinne:
Hmmm, I don’t think that’s in the print version I read this morning.
gene108
@Randy P:
If you’re interested WHYY’s Radio Times did interviews with all three Democratic Senate candidates:
Fetterman
McGinty
Sestak
Heard the start of the Fetterman interview. He was supposed to be in the studio to do an in-person interview, but blew it off to attend a Sanders campaign rally in Eerie, to try and drum up votes there.
Marty Moss-Coane was not amused and berated him about it from the get go, before settling into do the interview over the phone.
Fetterman seems like a good guy, if less polished than the other two.
So does Sestak and McGinty.
It’s not an easy choice.
Only thing I took from the snippet of the interview is Fetterman seems a lot more focused on Western and Central PA than on eastern PA, i.e. Philadelphia and its suburbs, which is silly to me as the Philly area is the largest population center in the state.
Miss Bianca
@Kropadope: Cool. Good on you. Wish I had some money to spare for out of state races. I’m gonna have to save anything I can spare for CO races – both national and state. I’d really love to see House District 3 flip – a really, really, tough, good and effective state senator is challenging Scott Tipton.
Miss Bianca
@StellaB: Yes! In return, some love for State Senator Gail Schwartz, set to take over CO House District 3! I am *so psyched* about her campaign – I may have to volunteer for it. I’ve known Gail for years, (I even got to interview her for Colorado Central), she was an amazingly effective representative and senator at the state level – truly able to reach and work across the aisle, with great priorities. I am also psyched to be out of CO 5, Doug Lamborn’s district, because we *have a chance* in CO 3. John Salazar, Ken’s brother, held that seat till the great upset a few years back, and we’re gonna take it back for Democrats! Yeah, I’m Team Blue… ; )
Davebo
@Kropadope:
You’re referring to his “To Big to Fail, To Big to Exist” bill he submitted one week after announcing his candidacy I assume.
Have you read the legislation? It doesn’t require a lot of time as it’s only 4 pages long. Calling that a plan is pretty sad.
schrodinger's cat
@gogol’s wife: Neither do I. Symbolism is overrated. I couldn’t care less for Hamilton either.
The really great Hamilton was the physicist not the politician.
schrodinger's cat
@gogol’s wife: Neither do I. Symbolism is overrated. I couldn’t care less for Hamilton either.
The really great Hamilton was the physicist not the politician.
* Whenever I try to edit my comment it lands me straight into moderation. What am I doing wrong? This has been happening since the most recent “upgrade”.
Betty Cracker
@gogol’s wife: I wouldn’t storm the Treasury over it, but I do think it matters.
Mnemosyne
@gogol’s wife:
Just got here. Cokie Roberts is an annoying idiot, but it does sound like she’s yet another person who was won over by Elizabeth Hamilton’s real-life grace and strength, so I can’t entirely write her off.
I also get the feeling that she hasn’t seen the musical and doesn’t realize who ultimately emerges as the true hero(ine) of it.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
It was stupid to propose to replace Hamilton to begin with — IMO, it should have been Jackson all along. It’s completely bizarre to replace the first Secretary of the Treasury with the guy who did his level best to destroy the federal financial system. And that’s even before you get to Jackson’s genocide-supporting and slavery-loving ways.
I doubt the accuracy of her “2030” date, because Cokie is an idiot.
Paul in KY
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: David, please don’t jinx her. that’s the kind of shit Shrum said to VP Gore back then. WE STILL HAVE 6 1/2 FREAKING MONTHS TO GO!!!
SiubhanDuinne
@gogol’s wife:
You’re probably remembering correctly. The online disclaimer (in a very pale, very tiny font) says: A version of this op-ed appears in print on April 20, 2016, on page A23 of the New York edition with the headline: The Hamilton I’d Put on the $10 Bill. “Version” is the tell.
aimai
@Kropadope: Well, I’m not a troll. So that rather pettish response to my long response to you is not really effective.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Cokie is a dunce, but she’s relying on a NYT report that cites the Treasury’s schedule for bill replacement for the 2030 estimate. I agree it was dumb to replace Hamilton, but I suspect it had more to do with the schedule of currency redesign than anything else. A hit musical shouldn’t derail the plan, IMO.
geg6
@rikyrah:
Fetterman is truly an awesome guy. Turned Braddock around in just a few years time. It’s never going to be what it was back in the steel days, but he has done a lot and will keep doing it. It’s slowly turning into a bit of a hipster area and he has a great relationship with the AA community there for his stand on the drug war (he’s against it) and in taking on crime in the city. It’s a cleaner, safer, more prosperous place than it was before he came along. He looks like a gigantic Hagrid with less hair and more tats who wears all black and cargo shorts 24/7. He’s great. Bernie has totally screwed him. Totally.
aimai
@Applejinx: How do people keep vanishing Obama from the discussion. In your lifetime you never saw such a groundswell of progressive support? Obama had tons of progressive support. Maybe it soured on him after he couldn’t make the sun shine at night but it was there.
gex
I keep seeing comments on how Clinton needs to now try to win over Sanders folks, build the coalition.
How does one do that when every move to the left has been met with accusations of being a lying scam artist?
burnspbesq
@Applejinx:
Nonsense. In the time and place in which we actually live, politics is a zero-sum game. Clinton or the abyss. Choose.
burnspbesq
@Miss Bianca:
First check I’m writing is for Roy Cooper, the Dem candidate for Gov in NC.
aimai
@japa21: Your point is a good rebuttal to @DCF: The future of the party is not at issue, certainly not because of something someone says on a blog today. But in any event no one needs the coveted Aimai imprimatur to vote now, or in four to eight years. They won’t ask for it and they don’t need it. But that being said its absurd to argue that Bernie’s voters are the future of the party. Some are, the young ones, but not the old ones. In demographic terms the future of the party is always younger voters–except the Democratic party in which the future of the party includes older minority voters who have previously been prevented from voting. Or new hispanic/latino/immigrant voters who have been prevented from voting by status or local suppression of their votes. Bernie did not particularly turn out those voters and even his youth turn out turns out to be overblown in the sense that he did’nt actually get an enormous wave of totally new voters. He took a big portion of the youth vote but the sheer numbers he was promising didn’t pan out.
The future of the party lies with people who get out and organize, run for candidate, run candidates, and donate money (by whichever means they like) to run candidates who can form a coalition to run the country. That means that every perfect, progressive, candidate that doesn’t tip the balance of the House or Senate over majority is not as important, for governing purposes, as a blue dog who gets in. I hate the blue dogs but that is the fact of the matter.
We all have to keep fighting to retake the House and Senate. I absolutely praise Sanders for creating tremendous enthusiasm and bringing his political philosophy (which I largely share) to a wider audience. I think that is incredibly meritorious and I think we all will benefit from it right now, in this election, if he doesn’t fuck it up. That being said I can’t stand this “give the guy a cookie for participating” shtick going on here. Sanders doesn’t want my approval and he doesn’t need it. Nor do his voters. They are grown ups. Just as I have been exhorted over and over again not to let my feelings about Sanders affect my vote I would urge everyone to remember that how you feel about a given candidate, in a two person race, really doesn’t matter. And for sure how somebody else feels about them really, really, doesn’t matter.
As for my comments. I’m interested in politics and political participation so I like noodling around on them. I’m not going to stop to assuage the hurt feelings of some Sanders supporters because they don’t like academic discussions of political strategy in the middle of a hotly contested political season.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@schrodinger’s cat:
I can’t edit without going into moderation either. I think something changed recently. But I live with it. Like you, I just post a reply to fix anything if necessary.
I put a post in the “Site Maintenance” thread (under Quick Links at the top of the page) about it, but I dunno if Alain has seen it or is able to do anything about it.
(shrug)
Cheers,
Scott.
Miss Bianca
@geg6: I’ve heard about this guy. It would have been awesome to see Bernie Sanders campaign for him, if only to test the theory that response to Sanders’s campaign is proof that there’s a huge groundswell of support for progressive messages and candidates.
Miss Bianca
@burnspbesq: Write one for me, will ya? ; )
DCF
@japa21:
A few points:
1) Sanders entered the Democratic primary to win – and to give voice to issues too long ignored by the post-Bill Clinton Democratic Party;
2) IMO, Devine and Weaver are not involved in the Sanders campaign to ‘…enrich themselves’. On the contrary, I think it much more likely that individuals such as David Brock, DWS, and other HRC surrogates are – at least in part – concerned with that aspect of the primary campaign. Both Devine and Weaver are experienced politicos, and knew the odds going into the process;
3) Sanders has been my representative as a mayor, representative, and senator for thirty-five (35) years. I can assure you that he is not a ‘gullible’ individual, and – just as importantly – has less ‘ego’ in this process than any candidate running on either side of the ledger;
4) Apart from the MSM pronouncements, the Sanders campaign – most of all the man himself – has made it clear that this campaign/movement/’revolution’ is not about Bernie Sanders per se; it is about bringing the party back to its ‘roots’, and focusing on the issues facing working/middle class citizens, rather than its present myopic focus upon the ‘professional/innovative/creative class’ – the top ten percent (10%) of the socioeconomic spectrum.
Thomas Frank: Listen, Liberal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibDX92b5cnY
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
I stand by my statement of “meh.” The article had no explanation of why the updates to the $10 and $20 could not be flip-flopped. Though the article did have this remarkably stupid quote from one of the groups that’s supposedly going to protest:
Paul in KY
@Mnemosyne: Supposedly they don’t want to mess with either the 20 or the 100 bill. Those are the ones most used around the world. I would be fine with getting rid of Jackson.
Miss Bianca
@DCF: I would have thought a lot better of him and the purity of his methods and intent if his campaign had ratcheted down their rhetoric and he had told his most rabid supporters to knock off their shitty behavior at the caucuses, state conventions and – oh, yeah – other candidates’ rallies. It turned any enthusiasm or support I might have had for his message into virulent distaste. And yeah…I do expect candidates to take some measure of responsibility for the bahvior of their followers.
Brachiator
@DCF:
Bernie often seems like a nice guy. But we are voting for president, not guru. I presume that you have to have some degree of ego and self-regard to think that you could be a nation’s leader. There is nothing wrong with this.
Ya know, members of the “professional/innovative/creative class” are citizens, too. I always liked that Obama emphasized that he wanted to be president of the United States, not the president of any particular faction.
DCF
@Miss Bianca:
1) Sanders is not responsible for the actions of a small minority of so-called ‘Berniebros’ – just as HRC is not accountable for the more troubling behavior(s) of a minority of her supporters;
2) If HRC – and her supporters – are inclined to feel ‘virulent distate’ for the (relatively) mild clashes with her Democratic primary rival, what in the name of all that’s holy will they (you?) do when confronted by the specters (sphincters?) of characters like Trump and Cruz? Compared to the toxic exchanges between Obama and HRC in 2008, I believe this primary has been relatively mild in that regard;
3) HRC will probably will be the last ‘Third Way’ Democratic presidential candidate. The pendulum has begun to swing in a (genuinely) progressive direction, and – IMV – will accelerate and expand into 2020 and 2024. I would caution anyone not to minimize/underestimate the far-reaching implications of a rising progressive cohort within the Democratic party – one that includes a far broader demographic than that of millenials alone.
DCF
@Brachiator:
Yes, they are…however, their consistent primacy with the Democratic party in regard to policies and priorities have, IMO, concurrently excluded (or minimized) the wants/needs of the remaining Democratic base (working/middle class constituents).
Tinare
@geg6: My 93 year-old mother totally surprised me last week. She’s in a nursing home and had received her absentee ballot for the primary, so I was helping her fill it out (she’s legally blind). So, I get to the Senate race and start to say, “McGinty, Sestak, or” and she shouts out “Fetterman! That’s his name, right? The guy from Braddock — him!” So, maybe he’ll do a little better than I thought, because I honestly didn’t expect my mom to be in his demographic. But, she did grow up in the Mon Valley, so I guess I shouldn’t be totally surprised that she would recognize that he did some good there. Anyway, my plan has been to vote for him as well.
St. A
@Paul in KY: +1000.
Miss Bianca
@DCF: You haven’t been listening to what’s been going on at caucuses, have you? Or maybe you don’t think it’s important. Clinton delegates getting harrassed and shouted down? Bullshit calls for “rules changes” in the middle of the game? That’s not “mild” – that is behavior designed to intimidate. And no – I haven’t seen that type of behavior from Clinton supporters this time round – for the most part, they’ve been remarkably long-suffering about it, rather than retaliatory. No, sorry…if that shit doesn’t get put down with a strong message from the top, that means it’s being tacitly accepted or even encouraged. Bad form.
Cruz and Trump I’d expect that behavior from. You’re saying it’s OK to get that kind of crap from Sanders and his campaign? In the name of “progressivism”? That says more about you than you might think, and it’s not complimentary.
Oh, and protip. – Generally speaking, yelling and screaming at people doesn’t change their minds and make them suddenly sympathetic to your cause. It makes them think you’re an asshole and turn off to your message.
Bob In Portland
@Miss Bianca: So which of H. Clinton’s big donors do you think she’ll betray first in the service of the working class?
Miss Bianca
@Bob In Portland: Oh, you’re cute. Not as cute as you think you are, however. No wonder you were Feeling the Bern – you and your hero both have a habit of reducing complex issues to simple sloganeering. If I wanted to deal with that, I’d be caucusing with Republicans.
Applejinx
@Bob In Portland: For-profit colleges.
Because it’s more Bill’s derp than hers, because it’s not being exported around the world like fracking is, because it’s miniscule compared to Wall Street plus she is already in a moderately adversarial relationship with Wall Street and they’re aware of how much on the shitlist they are, all over the country, and motivated to cut some deals and weasel out of more draconian punishments.
For-profit colleges is too small a racket, and too sleazy, to have that kind of self-awareness. I think she’s gonna nail them to the wall as an example to the others: partly because they make her ‘right to aspire’ riff look really bad. I’m also hoping she backs down on that one as it’s very stupid, but first she’ll make sure people can’t tie it to ‘for-profit college scams and kickbacks’.
Terry chay
@Princess: There is nothing in his history to say he will and everything to say it’s really about him and his ego. Luckily those causes have a great advocate in a certain senator from neighboring MA so it’ll be fine.