This is offensive, obnoxious, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, and probably will be the one thing the French do that wingnuts will want to adopt:
Photographs have emerged of armed French police confronting a woman on a beach and making her remove some of her clothing as part of a controversial ban on the burkini.
Authorities in several French towns have implemented bans on the burkini, which covers the body and head, citing concerns about religious clothing in the wake of recent terrorist killings in the country.
The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday show at least four police officers standing over a woman who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.
How would you feel if armed police were patrolling the beach telling your loved ones they are wearing too much clothing? Whatever happened to letting people wear what they fucking want?
Not to mention, I went to the beach in Maine during the summers when all the Canadian autoworkers had their vacation, and I saw enough burly men in banana hammocks to scar me for life. They should have been forced to wear a burkini.
Pogonip
Did you get your car cleaned out from the Walterbomb?
rikyrah
So offensive.
1. the actual law
2. that there are MALE policeman making her do this. this is traumatizing for that observant woman.
3. got a picture of a bunch of NUNS at the beach, and nobody was messing with them. this is pure RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION.
pat
Horrible, just horrible. Almost makes me want to go there and sit on the beach covered from head to toe. Almost.
How does this even make sense?
So let’s get some outreach going to our Muslim neighbors, huh?
eta: But the Catholic nuns can cover up? WTF
Xantar
In before someone complains about John bigfooting DougJ.
LAO
According to one report I read, people on the beach were cheering the police. Apparently, as long as the state targets disfavored minorities, “regular people” don’t care. It’s disgraceful.
amorphous
@Xantar: The bigfooting meme/circlejerk here on BJ needs to go away. Who cares? So annoying.
Trollhattan
@amorphous:
SAD!
Raven
@amorphous: calling shit “memes” can disappear too.
JPL
In a perfect world, a group of people sickened by the brutality of the situation, would don wet suits and go to the same beach.
Groucho48
The police seemed pretty covered up for being on a beach. They should arrest themselves.
Rosalita
I went to high school in Daytona Beach, we saw every burly character on the east fucking coast wearing nut-huggers and socks. And yeah, the images still burn.
And covering up is not respecting morals and secularism… we’re doomed as a species I swear
Skerry
My 26 yr old, red-haired, blue-eyed, white, Christian daughter has started wearing burkini tunic and leggings (no head covering) to avoid sunburn and potential future skin cancer. I guess she should avoid France. She’s worn this outfit both domestically and internationally with no problem. I wore a shirt and shorts at the beach this year. I have had multiple basel cell cancers removed and am trying to avoid more.
It’s no one’s business what another chooses to wear at the beach or poolside – or why.
Bobby_D
I’ve seen bigfooting. But a minute apart? Well played sir!
schrodinger's cat
@Raven: Recovering well from surgery and back in fighting form. LBJ would be proud!
Gemina13
A counter-protest of sorts seems to be under way . . .
Gene108
Not the first the French have barred Muslim women from covering up
Rosalita
@Xantar:
If he waited we’d miss out on the best stream of consciousness posts
scav
It is apparently a mandatory element of French liberté et égalité that the fraternité gets to ogle as much of French womens’ skin as the frat elements want, no matter the desires of the woman involved. No matter if there are any elements of actual fear or real issues to be addressed, the mobs seem so often to go after what women wear as a first step. Marianne must drop her drawers and show everyone her tits and then all ces idiotes à la plage will be safe!
Betty Cracker
It’s wrong for all the reasons you enumerate, plus it’s counterproductive politically and culturally. Way to give the religious extremists exactly what they want. Le sigh.
CAinCA
So it’s ok for the police to be on the beach fully covered up, but not the woman.
Mike in NC
More of the famous French “outreach” to their Muslim citizens. What could possibly go wrong?
Hal
Oh come on. Everyone knows real liberation for women begins with a two piece bikini. Extra points for a thong and for women who go topless. But only on the beach and only if they are not breast feeding.
SiubhanDuinne
According to the deputy mayor of Nice, the burkini is an “Islamist provocation.” I heard this interview with him on BBC Newshour earlier today. It’s worth the listen, just to know how off the wall these people are.
Tractarian
The law is definitely outrageous.
Then again, so is believing that you will be punished after you die if you show too much skin, because an ancient text told you so.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
SiubhanDuinne
@Skerry:
Quoted for damn fuckin truth.
schrodinger's cat
Water off the beaches (tiny ones in southern ME) is cold throughout the year. Aside from the cray cray no one swims in the ocean in ME. It is too damn cold. There are not too many folks wearing skimpy swim suits even in summer.
CONGRATULATIONS!
The end result of this is that, unlike what will happen here in the US (where even the execrable Trump is sending out word through his damned “surrogates” that nobody’s getting deported), Europe will toss most of their African and Muslim immigrants, by force and violence, while telling us until the last boat leaves how tolerant and wonderful they are compared to the United States.
JMG
I love France, and my daughter, who lives there, loves it even more. But the French are way, way more racist and Islamophobic than the reddest part of the reddest state in the USA. It’s totally socially acceptable there.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gene108: While I think the hajib ban is rather rather silly, it does have its roots in France’s insistence on public services being entirely secular – something that is deeply ingrained in France’s republican psyche (see, e.g., the Dreyfus affair). This thing with the burkini otoh is pure stupidity.
quakerinabasement
If this happened in the US, a Supreme Court challenge would happen pdq. What mechanism do the French have for challenging laws in court?
Gemina13
@Skerry:
My sister-in-law is extremely prone to sunburn, and has no love for shaving her legs just to avoid the grossed-out sounds and looks from men on the beach or poolside. She would love one of those, too.
jl
@CAinCA: Well, one of the cops is wearing shorts.
HRA
It has been years now since some Catholic nuns no longer wear habits. They wear tailored plain clothes.
What reason is given for the ban of birkini? I had to google it and saw nothing suspect with it. I have seen it on my campus.
JPL I like the idea of a group wearing wet suits and going on the beach there.
scav
Well, apparently the next step to happiness will involve the entrails of the deputy mayor of Nice being put to their highest and best use.
nutella
I wonder what the laws about sexual assault are like in France? Because to me, a group of fully dressed men forcing a woman to take her clothes off sure looks like sexual assault.
burnspbesq
@LAO:
It’s hard to think of any aspect of France’s treatment of its Muslim population that isn’t disgraceful.
Roger Moore
@LAO:
Completely unsurprising. Apparently, the burkini ban started because a bunch of obnoxious locals started harassing women wearing burkinis on the beach, and the confrontation led to a minor riot. Rather than standing up against the harassers, the local governments have decided to ban the burkini.
I understand that France has a proud history of secularism, and there are times I wish our government could be more aggressively secular, but this is absolutely wrong. It’s very similar to Anatole France’s comment about rich and poor alike being forbidden to sleep under bridges. Laws that are allegedly secular but that target behavior that only one religion espouses are no such thing.
schrodinger's cat
@Tractarian: It should be up to the women to decide, how much or how little skin they want to show.
nutella
@HRA:
I expect if it’s a mixed group the rule would be that the women would be forced to strip down and the men would be left alone. But nobody would enforce it if the group looked to be of European descent.
catclub
@rikyrah:
France both says that it is secular, and assumes that the only religious denomination is Catholic.
NorthLeft12
I hate to stereotype, but this seems to be a French thing. We had this same kind of discussion up here in Canada during our last election. Banning coverings polled extremely well in Quebec, so our former Conservative PM and his band of troglodytes tried to use it as a wedge issue because they were already rock bottom in Quebec. Our about to be PM Trudeau handled it perfectly [a distracting non-issue and FFS of course they can dress how they want] to quash the right wing maroons.
What the hell is wrong with those people in France? Do they really think this is an intelligent and reasonable response to the recent attacks they have faced?
raven
When Algeria gained independence the French took away the pensions of Algerian soldiers who fought for France in WWII.
randy khan
@Tractarian:
I guess I would say it may be irrational to believe you’ll be punished after you die for showing too much skin, but it’s not outrageous, so long as you don’t impose that belief on other people.
But I certainly agree that what the French are doing here is outrageous and counterproductive.
gex
@Omnes Omnibus: This leaves me wondering how nuns in full habits on a French beach was allowed, of which I recently saw a picture (but no longer have the link). If, as you say, they are trying to keep public places secular, then this should have been in violation just as the burkinis are.
schrodinger's cat
@gex: Some religions are more equal than others, silly!
burnspbesq
@Tractarian:
If you find that belief to be outrageous, then don’t believe it. But you seem to be a little bit unclear on the fundamental issue here.
D58826
Aren’t these the same beaches where the women (atleast the right kind) go topless?
I saw a side by side photo comparison of a burkini and a scuba wet suit. Only difference I could tell was a beard on the person wearing the wet suit.
catclub
@Betty Cracker:
It seems to me that the woman can say: “So If I go and stand on the sidewalk over there, that is not the beach, wearing what I am wearing, that is not a problem, but if I come on the beach it is a problem?”
This is crazy.
Tractarian
@burnspbesq:
I said “The law is definitely outrageous.” That’s what you’re referring to as the “fundamental issue”, right? Was my statement unclear?
eclare
I know the US has no shortage of issues, but I was so glad to see a woman wearing a hijab compete in the Olympics. This is BS.
slag
Great. More policing of women’s attire. A little something for us all to love/hate.
Personally, I have strong feelings regarding the many ways in which various religions oppress women, but they’ve never extended to clothing precisely because clothing, unlike FGM or stoning or whatever, is more associated with personal preference. Lay the hell off and let the ladies dress how they want, regardless of how it looks to you.
Prescott Cactus
@amorphous: “Have You No Sense of Decency”
ETA: Their beach is rocks. Granted nice sized river rock, but rocks. Likely not Freedum rocks either.
Punchy
France has topless beaches, right? So they can be topless, but not not-topless.
Nothing says “good morals” like free boobies and a lack of modesty.
catclub
@NorthLeft12:
With an exception for nuns, of course, this is Catholic Quebec after all.
D58826
@Skerry:
Only issue I would have is if it presented some kind of safety issue when in the water. Someone in a long flowing robe might be at greater risk of drowning. On the beach or poolside – knock yourself out. Wear a gorilla suit for all I care.
SiubhanDuinne
@gex:
Don’t know if you saw this photo or another. Found this one by googling.
burnspbesq
@Tractarian:
You said quite a bit more than “the law is outrageous.”
The problem is your apparent intolerance of religious belief.
Calouste
@JMG: So when are you going to show the new Star Wars movie? Because that is some mighty projection you got going there.
JPL
@SiubhanDuinne: Thanks for the link.
Villago Delenda Est
John, a nit.
It’s not complete bullshit.
It’s total bullshit.
Kay (not the front-pager)
I don’t know if French police are aware, many people now cover up at the beach to avoid skin cancer, as well as wrinkles. I don’t know why anyone would find a tunic, scarf, and leggings offensive
The Other Chuck
@Roger Moore:
Not sure I’d call it proud anymore, except in a phony chest-puffing way.
Omnes Omnibus
@gex: I am drawing a line between the hajib issue which is rooted in secularism and also covers wearing crosses, stars of David, etc., by public service workers while on the job and the burkini ban which is imo unjustifiable.
Splitting Image
“Dear Muslim women: You are wearing too many articles of clothing. Please remove three. I am not a crank.”
After a hundred years of men protecting moral standards by arresting women who show too much skin, I have to take it with a grain of salt when men start protecting moral standards by arresting women who show too little.
NorthLeft12
Meanwhile, in the socialist hellhole that is Canada;
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-diversity-policy-hijab-1.3733829
The freaking Mounties are going to allow Muslim women to wear hijabs as part of the uniform. Believe it or not this was a big deal awhile ago, and there was a lot of right wing/conservative butthurt over turbans being worn by Mounties. I am no admirer of the Mounted Police, but I think trying to ensure that their organization is diversified and inclusive is the best way to improve their culture and their performance.
Calouste
@SiubhanDuinne: Of course all the Americans on this here blog immediately equate Nice with France, as if a country with 60 million inhabitants would be the same everywhere. Nice is National Front heartland. It’s like saying Alabama represents the whole US, if Alabama had upscale beaches and a film festival.
Iowa Old Lady
@Calouste: I thought the radio report I heard said the beach was in Normandy. Can’t be sure, of course.
Omnes Omnibus
@Iowa Old Lady: The picture is from Nice.
We should also note that this was not a national ban by the French government, but rather several municipalities doing at their level.
Sebastien
@NorthLeft12:
There is that. Don’t count on well-thought reactions when it’s easier to go the douchebag way. Other commenters have also (painfully to this frenchie, but alas accurately) talked of the deep-seated racism here. Rejecting CVs based solely on name is more discreet than burning crosses, but it hurt the same way.
I wonder if the differences in the way we mistreat others come from the origin of the maligned minorities (slavery / colonialism)…
There have been only weeks before this ban two young women arrested for (stupidly) posting their intentions of joining terrorists groups, so I guess the less evilly stupid of those who decided the ban thought sincerely of fighting islamist influence on women, only choosing the simplest and stupidest solution.
An incident right at the time of the ban in Corsica was at first painted as justifying it, but last time I checked on the investigation, it had appeared that it was more a (completely stupid, given the Corsicans’ legendary temper) play by some arab-french young toughs to muscle other people out of a small beach, as if trying to turn it in their property. Of course, things got quickly hairy.
Oh dear, Sarkozy, Napoleon-the-shorter, as I call him, has confirmed his candidacy, and he maintains his stupid ideas of peddling the FN’s idiocies in the hope they won’t prefer the genuine product…
scav
@Calouste: There are 15 other places with similar bans, so don’t assume complete ignorance in everyone else. French burkini ban row escalates after clothing incident at Nice beach. Oddly enough, a village next to the one I lived in near Paris was notable for voting overwhelmingly for Le Pen in 2002 (first round) so it’s certainly not a limited to SE France mindset.
Matt McIrvin
@Calouste: And Nice was also the place where they just had a huge, horrifying truck attack with Islamist associations, so overreaction is not that surprising.
Major Major Major Major
@Omnes Omnibus: a very important distinction.
bluefish
Brigitte Bardot is probably happy.
Prescott Cactus
@Villago Delenda Est:
Perhaps it’s,
back of the car,
rubbed in the carpet,
smeared into the seat belt,
massaged into the leather,
dog shit ?
Cacti
Male authorities harassing women for wearing too much clothing is a bit of a change from the usual M.O., but comes from the same place.
scav
@Cacti: It also simply reeks of security theater.
nutella
@SiubhanDuinne:
That image of nuns at the beach is from Italy. The article is weird. It’s all about Italy even though the issue is in France.
Tractarian
@burnspbesq:
Well, I tolerate it enough to vehemently disagree with a law outlawing it. I still think the belief itself is outrageous.
Chris
The best summary of this whole mess will always be a cartoon from Le Monde, which I’m sorry I haven’t been able to locate. The cartoon has a teenage girl in her pajamas brushing her teeth, when her dad knocks on the bathroom door with three other people behind him: “Honey! It’s the mayor, the principal, and the Ayatollah! All of them want to know what you’re wearing to school today!”
jpm
That’s a beach? Looks like a pile of rocks!
schrodinger's cat
@Cacti: Indeed, when we go to India, no matter what I wear it attracts a lot of comments from casual acquaintances, friends and family. While my husband kitteh gets nary a peep.
Chris
@scav:
Ah, now this I do have a cartoon for!
gogol's wife
Nauseating.
scav
@Chris: Doesn’t Fatima Mernissi’s Dreams of Trespass end on a similar point?
The Golux
@amorphous:
I find the whole thing amusing, because I almost never read Balloon-Juice from the front page anymore, I just view one post at a time and use the arrows for navigation. Thus, the timing of the posts is immaterial.
The Golux
@jpm:
Yup, that’s Nice. We’ve brought several of those smooth stones home as souvenirs.
Sandcastles are a challenge, though.
Chris
@Sebastien:
“Winning back voters from the FN” was the worst political idea in some time. It’s just begging for France to go through some variation of Nixon’s Southern Strategy, which ended with the Republicans basically fusing with the Southern Democrats to produce the contemporary shit-show.
kindness
Do French authorities make Nuns take their clothes off too?
Villago Delenda Est
@Prescott Cactus: Yes!
Chris
@jpm:
Yes, fairly common. My family comes from another, much smaller town on the Provence coastline, and most of the beaches around are rock. Same with most places I’ve been to in the area. There are such things as sand beaches, but it’s a much rockier coastline than, say, Florida.
I learned to swim with plastic sandals precisely for that reason. Well, that and the sea urchins.
Chris
@kindness:
You know, the stupidest thing about this is that it isn’t even just nuns. In the old days, it was perfectly common and accepted for women to wear scarves that were functionally indistinguishable from hijabs – in church, sure, but also elsewhere. It was fashionable, even. And by “old days” I’m not talking court of Versailles, I’m talking 1950s and 1960s. Pops up in movies from that time period all the time. Not just in France, either.
Sure, it fell out of fashion as time went by and partly for feminist reasons, I’m sure, but you still see old-fashioned women from time to time wearing them. And unless they’re obviously Muslim, nobody gives a shit. There certainly was never an effort to ban them as society went on, until a large enough number of Muslims arrived and they needed a pretext to be assholes.
voncey
Just a note that all the banana-hammock wearing Canadians you saw were from Quebec. The rest of the country had nothing to do with it. See also: Hollywood, FL
Citizen_X
How is this the slightest bit different from the Saudi religious police enforcing their clothing rules for women?
ASV
Not just the wingnuts — Bill Maher-style “rationalists” will be all over this as well.
Mnemosyne
@schrodinger’s cat:
Exactly. I was ranting about this last night because it certainly seems like the secularist laws are being used to specifically target French Muslims. A Christian can wear a cross and a Jewish man can wear a yarmulke in public, but a Muslim woman can’t wear a headscarf because it’s “too ostentatious.”
Selective enforcement pretty much guarantees bias.
Mnemosyne
@Tractarian:
If this was a story about Jewish men being forced to remove their yarmulkes, would you spend all this time telling us that it’s “outrageous” that Judaism forces men to wear them?
Countervail
But that’s not what’s happening here. It’s a public display of private religious convictions. The burkini is a dress code for the subjugation of women of the Muslim faith. The police in this case were not telling the woman she was wearing too many clothes and you know it. One can dress modestly for a public beach without the inclusion of a hajib. And it’s offensive and shameful to even presuppose that. They are telling her that she is wearing clothing, because of the subjugation of her culture’s religion, that display a religious message to the larger community. France is in the middle of underground terrorist assault because of radicals of the Muslim faith, and we’re tipoeing around pubilc displays of that faith as if religion, a bunch of made up beliefs, should get the same respect as the safety and well-being of the larger community. We don’t allow (supposedly) religious display on public property here in the United States. Why is this different in someone displaying their faith through clothing on public property?
Let’s turn that around for second. Say a French woman showed up topless to a beach in Saudia Arabia claiming it was part of her new age religion to be naked. How exactly do you think that would be handled? Should the Saudi Arabian authorities respect her right to display her body as she chooses? Do you think they would ignore it and tell everyone to stop being such prudes?
I’m so tired of kowtowing to religious concerns. Live your faith, but live it on your own time in your own space. And that’s the issue. In France, Muslims can worship as they choose privately. Any religion can practice as they choose privately. To my knowledge there are no restrictions on that. But they want to live those creeds in public life, and to a point should be accommodated, but not when it starts to infringe on living without religion for others. I wouldn’t think it appropriate for someone dressed as Jesus on a beach. I would not want a family to set up their space with a big cross stuck in the ground beside them.
Stop being such overly-intellectual, touchy-feely, Glenn Greenwald apologists on stuff like this.
Tractarian
@Mnemosyne:
Good question – probably not. But that’s because, while a belief based on ancient texts that you have to constantly wear a small skullcap in order to avoid eternal damnation is certainly outrageous, it’s not quite as outrageous as mandating full body coverage.
scav
So now we’ve the pick and choose nitpick cheveux-couping squad ain’t I clever to be contrarian crowd — if everyone is barred from appearing on beaches naked or forbidden from wearing long sleeves or wearing some idiot fashion of shorts, that’s one thing. If certain women are forbidden from wearing a certain amount of clothing merely because the damn thing is called a burkini instead of a cancer suit or long underwear, it’s BS discrimination. And no, you’re not cute.
Keith G
I think that it is wrong for the state to tell a woman how to dress and to command compliance.
I think it is wrong far a husband (and usually his entire family) to tell the adult woman who is is wife how to dress and to command compliance.
Interesting world. No?
Greenergood
@rikyrah: The police action should technically be considered an assault – making a woman strip off her clothing. Can you imagine ‘developed country’ police officers forcing a man to remove some of his garments? (As opposed to ISIS police forcing men to shave their beards, women to not expose any parts of their bodies, etc.) Are we to become the same as the group we reprehend as the enemy?
Mnemosyne
@Tractarian:
So, it’s sexism on your part. You think more about what women should and shouldn’t wear than what men should and shouldn’t wear.
Note, this is a VERY common belief. I’m not actually attacking you for it. But I think you need to check your privilege a little and realize that you’re holding women and men to a different standard.
Mnemosyne
@Countervail:
If your standard of conduct is that the French police should be just as free to force women to dress the way they prefer as the Saudi Arabian police are, I think you’ve lost the thread.
Here’s an idea: no legal authority gets to dictate how women should dress and fucking busybodies like yourself find something else to worry about in your copious free time than how other people’s clothing choices infringe on your civil liberties.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
That becomes an interesting question, though. How much regulation of private behavior between adults do we want to do? How much of an assumption of coercion between adults should there be in a free society?
Obviously, we regulate violence and abuse, but is it automatically abusive for an Orthodox Jewish husband to pressure his wife to cut her hair short and wear a wig like all the other women in their community? Where do you draw the line between peer pressure, community standards, and abuse?
Emma
Have you ever discussed this with a real life practicing Muslim woman? Because I see them all the time at the University where I work. These girls/women don’t seem to have an issue with preparing for a profession and wearing hijab at the same time. Maybe, just maybe, they chose to wear these clothes the same way nuns wear theirs. Real strange idea, women having agency, isn’t it?
satby
@Skerry: I grew up wearing that to go swimming at the beach, because I was a redheaded, fair skinned child in the age before sunscreen. I still tend to wear clothes, not swimsuits, to the beach because I can burn with spf50 on.
Keith G
@Tractarian:
Funny that. Muslims who I have taught or worked with have assured me that even though the Quran says women in public shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. There can be a great deal of difference in defining, “which is necessary”. According to them one of the biggest indicators of how, “which is necessary” is defined is the gender of the definer.
Brachiator
The French see this as an offense against secularism (and I think this occurred in an area that is right-leaning). It’s not just the bathing suit, but other public manifestations of religious faith by other groups that the French are looking at as fracturing a uniform sense of national identity.
The bigotry of good intentions?
I guess I’m no true Frenchman, since all I see is two bullies bothering a woman who is not causing any kind of nuisance.
@Countervail:
How is it your or society’s place to prescribe when and where a person can simply exhibit his or her faith?
I am not seeing how the existence of this woman on a beach threatens anyone else.
Emma
@Chris: Hell, think now. I sporadically attend Mass at a small working-class church. The Mass before the one I attend, which is Spanish-language, some of the older women still wear veils. At the one I attend, which has a sizable Black islander contingent (probably Jamaican, but I’ve never asked) the women wear long sleeved dresses or suits and hats.
Mnemosyne
@Emma:
C’mon, Emma, everybody knows that women only wear what their menfolk tell them to wear and have no agency to make those decisions on their own. I would walk out of my house naked every morning if I didn’t have a husband to tell me how to dress myself!
//
Keith G
@Mnemosyne:
Is it automatically abusive for a cult like Scientology or the Moonies to harass their “members” so that their public dress and behavior conforms to the cult’s expectations.
@Emma:
Do they all have agency? Is it possible that all are jolly fine with the idea or that some aren’t and lack the agency to chart an individual course?
edit…@Mnemosyne: Oh fer christ’s sake.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
Are conservative Muslims and Orthodox Jews all cult members who need to be deprogrammed? Is wearing a headscarf and long sleeves enough to get you labeled a cult member, or do you have to go full burka?
Schoolgirls in France are being sent home because their skirts are too long and therefore “ostentatiously religious.”
I have a feeling you never had to kneel on the floor while a nun measured your skirt length to be sure it was within regulations, but I guess that was just another crazy fringe cult like the Moonies, right?
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: I do not give any ground to mouth breathing religious nutjobs….no matter if the religion in question is Western or Eastern, new or ancient.
And by the way Ms Twister…I started out saying that France was wrong – just no more wrong than others who do coerce “moral” behavior out of women (or any others).
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
I did! And in winter time, the cold weather made my balls tingle while I was kneeling on the floor.
giantslor
Simply put, this is fucked up and makes Islamic terrorists more likely to attack France in the future.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
I’m pretty sure that was a video you saw online, dude. And eeeewweeww!
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
I asked a genuine question about where a free society can draw the moral and legal line between peer pressure, community standards, and abuse when it comes to religion and religious dress. You chose to push it to but what about cults?, thereby showing that you’re not actually interested in a serious discussion. So why get huffy when I respond to you the same way you responded to me, Mr. Twister?
Bobby Thomson
I hate French nazis.
Emma
@Keith G: So in order for a culture to be respected you must be assured that EVERY woman has agency? How do you stand the United States?
pat
So how about those Mennonite women with their long skirts and those silly little white caps that say HI I’m dressing the way my religion wants me to dress??
batgirl
Will the French go after religious Jewish females as well? From the Forward
JR in WV
@Raven:
What’s wrong with a synonym for “idea”, after all. Memes are just ideas spreading, like the thought that the earth isn’t flat.
Glad you’re doing so well~!! Take it easy the next few weeks.
Theodore Wirth
It would be less offensive if these women were more naked.
JR in WV
@raven:
Did not know that. We visited NE Spain and SW France back in 2013, loved the trip, the caves ( w / paintings ) we saw, the people mostly ( a couple of older women berated wife for misusing her H S French by leaving off an honorific they showed they didn’t deserve ) who were very helpful and friendly.
But the politics in France… and it goes way back, too. Again, the Dreyfus affair. Devil’s Island, their colonial rule. Seems quite odd.
Hey, LBJ, Fuck Him too!
Regards!
Mnemosyne
@batgirl:
And, unfortunately, if French Muslim women get harassed for their beach attire and French Orthodox Jewish women don’t, it’s only going to make matters worse between those two communities in France, and they already have plenty of problems.
JR in WV
@srv:
My dad wore Speedos all his life, til he was too ill to go to a pool. In his 70s Mom was really bothered, and would so have preferred what I find out from searching are “board shorts.”
Which I’ve never heard of til this moment.