It hasn’t started as of 11:39. Here’s a link to a live feed. Here’s a C-SPAN link in case you missed it.
Also, WaPo is reporting the suspect in the bombing is now in custody.
ETA: Holy shit, if this report proves true, it might behoove wannabe terrorists to move their operations to someplace where people are less likely to immediately pounce on and ransack unattended packages:
There are still conflicting reports surrounding a second explosive device that was found Saturday night on West 27th Street in New York, but reports indicate that individuals looking to pick up an unattended suitcase may have inadvertently thwarted a second explosion.
NBC News reported that surveillance video showed “a man leaving behind a piece of luggage before two other people come along, take a device out of the bag and walk away with just the suitcase”
According to DNA info, two people saw a suitcase on West 27th Street, opened it up and took a pressure cooker out “before placing the explosive into a garbage bag and walking away with the rolling suitcase.”
According to DNA info, “investigators believe they inadvertently disabled the explosive.”
It was the first, but not the last scavenging incident that may have actually saved lives in New York and New Jersey over the weekend. According to other reports, two men were also responsible for locating explosives in an unattended backpack at an Elizabeth, New Jersey train station Sunday evening. There, two men found a backpack, walked some distance with it before stopping and discovering it was filled with wires.
In that incident, police were notified and five explosive devices were found.
Terrorist 1 – Scavengers 2. Also, I heard that the bomb that did go off exploded in or under a dumpster, which absorbed much of the impact. Could it be that our heroic bag-grabbers placed it there after determining that there were no valuables in it? If so, thanks, guys!
Alain the site fixer
I was going to post that the site updates will hit a bit later, but I’m holding off, don’t want to potentially have an issue in the middle of important breaking news/events such as this.
Here’s hoping this *%$#$%^ was doing it from a restaurant-related grievance and not so much true international terror, even if it’s likely that the cloak of ISIS will be pulled over him.
srv
Even the NYT comment section is filled with racist liberals emoting they’ve been mugged by reality.
Calouste
@srv: Funny that you never read those kind of comments when yet another MRA loser or gun-addict shoots up a school or campus.
Hildebrand
@srv: Thank you for sharing.
JMG
Newspaper comment threads are not representative of public opinion, for which we should all be grateful. The people who aren’t traumatically frightened by the event aren’t going to post, “Actually, I’m OK.” They’re too busy doing other things.
MattF
I’ll just note that he was found passed out in an alley behind a bar. Not exactly a devout Muslim.
Kropadope
@MattF: Perhaps, hit with the gravity of what he did, he felt compelled to drink himself into a stupor.
Keith G
Just watched the C-SPAN clip. I have to admit that I no longer watch much breaking news coverage. Usually I catch up later by scanning a few relevant clips. I thought that is is customary practice when a head of state (any state) enters a room, all stand as a sign of respect to the office until invited to resume sitting.
Frankensteinbeck
Good grief. That WaPo article is all maybes. There isn’t even confirmation they think the guy in custody did it. Everyone brought in is a person of interest.
schrodinger's cat
@MattF: Isn’t Trump a teetotaler? Does that mean he is a secret Muslin?
It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Shell
The previous thread made me think….Why isn’t the media whining about how long its been since Trumps last news conference? And yes, I think they realize that last Fridays infomercial was not one.
hovercraft
My Aunt from Malawi just called to ask if we’re okay. Which cracked me up, we’re New Yorkers, shit happens and you move on. I live in Perth Amboy, 5 miles from Linden, and 8-9 miles from Elizabeth,30 miles from the City. Yesterday my Mom took the 10 year old into the City, and it never even occurred to me to be concerned. These people who are terrified by all this need to calm the f**k down. The point of terrorism if this was terrorism is to scare you. I’d rather walk down a NYC street in the middle of the night, than walk through a Texas suburb at night. I feel more afraid of ammosexuals than I am of ‘jihadi’ terrorists. My bathroom is a greater risk to me than terrorism. Calm down they got this.
Villago Delenda Est
@srv: HODOR!
Calouste
@Frankensteinbeck: A person of interest who shot two police officers.
Kropadope
@Shell: Because there isn’t a giant noise machine trying to push bad news about Trump and the Republicans into the headlines.
hovercraft
@schrodinger’s cat:
Maybe the whole secret muslim/birther crusade was all projection. He’s been hiding his religion in plane sight this whole time!
As you said it’s irresponsible not to speculate.
Major Major Major Major
“If you see something, steal its luggage and throw it in the trash”
sam
@hovercraft: I did note the irony sunday morning of my brother emailing me and my parents to check that we were all OK. He assumed that we were, since we live elsewhere in manhattan, but you never know where someone may be socializing on a Saturday night.
The irony, of course, is that my brother works for the International Rescue Committee and is currently living in Turkey on the Syrian border, remotely supervising education workers inside Aleppo. Prior to this assignment, he spent two years in Beirut, and prior to *that*, he spent a year in Kabul, Afghanistan. Let’s just say the “are you OK?” emails are usually flowing in the other direction.
Bobby Thomson
@Major Major Major Major: lol
Matt McIrvin
@hovercraft: The thing that gets me is, what do people actually think would be accomplished by somehow cracking down on Muslims? This stochastic-terrorism business relies on angry alienated guys adopting Islamist radicalism as their brand. Oppress ordinary Muslims who are just trying to go about their business and you’ll get way more of that, not less. Make it a matter of survival for them to fight back, and you’ll get vastly more: you have a civil war. But it might make us feel tough.
Mayur
@Calouste: one officer. The other one was hit by “flying glass.”
Amir Khalid
@hovercraft:
Offer the Donald a ham sandwich, and then we’ll all know!
? Martin
@hovercraft: Yeah. I grew up in NYC in the 70s. Someone over there is getting mugged. Can you do anything about it? No. Just keep walking, they aren’t going to bother you. Tell a cop if you see one. I’m sure these are the New York values that Ted Cruz thinks are horrifying, but New Yorkers aren’t afraid of your petty shit. They don’t need an AR-15 to feel secure at the drug store.
There’s this study out suggesting that half of guns in the US are owned by just 3% of the population:
I’m skeptical the study is correct. I think the contours are right but 3% owning half seems too unbalanced to me. But this attitude in certain parts of the country that you need to be armed at all times is fucking insane, and the people who perpetuate that attitude are the dangerous ones as far as I’m concerned. If you are afraid of every unknown element, it’s just a matter of time that you find some innocent person to be enough of a threat to shoot at. Open carry is just a mechanism to lower the standard to shoot. I mean, if there’s a threat, and I have a gun, isn’t that why I have a gun – to shoot at the threat? We are terrible at calculating future consequences. That you might go to prison for life for murdering someone isn’t generally a strong enough abstract concept to punch through the sensation of a sphincter puckering.
hovercraft
@sam:
Wow, the only more dangerous organization to work for would be Doctors Without Borders. Sending positive thoughts and prayers as he continues to work for the benefit of humanity. A very brave man.
Original Lee
The last few posts have made me wonder what public opinion of the media is nowadays. The most recent I could find is from April , which isn’t very recent at all.
So then I wondered if there was a bigger study somewhere, and there is. But amazingly enough, there’s almost nothing that links public opinion to the economics. Gee, I wonder why.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Andrea Mitchell stating as a matter of fact that Trump’s toughness is a problem for Clinton.
Kropadope
@Matt McIrvin:
C’mon, why can’t you liberals get on board with starting a Bureau of Pre-Crime enforcement? Naturally, without a nexus of telepaths to tell us where and when crime will be, we just need to profile people. /Trumpet
Pretty much the entire Republican brand is built on denying reality at this point.
That’s the remainder of the brand.
Hildebrand
@Matt McIrvin: Tut, tut, enough of that whole ‘thinking’ bit. That simply will not do.
Miss Bianca
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Trump’s “toughness”? The guy crumples like a cheap cardboard suitcase if he’s ever even remotely challenged. The only reason she thinks he’s “tough” is because, she, like all the other media lackeys, is afraid to challenge him.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Mrs. Greenspan is actively pleading for a lower tumbrel number.
Kylroy
“Well there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn’t advise you to try to terrorize.”
Calouste
I notice a poll from Oklahoma that has Trump 51 – Clinton 36. 2012 was Romney 67 – Obama 33.
Matt McIrvin
@Miss Bianca: It’s the “toughness” of George W. Bush strutting around in his flight suit.
nonynony
@? Martin:
If I told you that half of the model trains in the country were owned by 3% of the population, would that seem unbalanced? Or that half of the comic books in the country were owned by 3% of the population? Or half of the baseball cards? (I have no idea if these numbers are right – I’d suspect, for example, that more than half of the comic books in this country are owned by far less than 3% of the population).
Collectors skew any market they show up in and obsessive collectors skew the market dramatically. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to find out that the bulk of guns are owned by roughly 9.5 million individuals who are the most obsessive about collecting them – that’s probably true of any thing out there that people collect. (Though viewing guns as just another collectable is problematic – if I screw up the storage of my baseball cards nobody’s going to accidentally get shot. Also I’m not demanding to open carry my comic book collection at Wal*Mart either.)
Snarki, child of Loki
@schrodinger’s cat: “Isn’t Trump a teetotaler? ”
You know who else was a teetotaler? Okay, other than Dubya, who was lying about it anyway.
in vino veritas also, too. Can’t trust ’em.
SenyorDave
@Calouste: I notice a poll from Oklahoma that has Trump 51 – Clinton 36. 2012 was Romney 67 – Obama 33.
Good point, I think it shows that Trump has an absoulte ceiling lower than typical generic Republican.
JMG
Being the loudest guy in the bar is not toughness, but is often mistaken for it. Whatever happened to that idea Trump would attack Clinton for being too hawkish?
The public attitude towards these issues was irreparably damaged by the First Gulf War. It created the illusion that wars can be short, controllable, involve few American casualties, and last but not least, great ratings for cable news.
hovercraft
@Matt McIrvin:
That’s the money quote, I remember the media crowing approvingly when Bush stood on top of the rubble at Ground Zero, and again when he landed on the Air Craft carrier, idiots like Tweety were so impressed. “Manly” displays like that for some people are demonstrations of strength, to the idiots who think that John Wayne and Clint Eastwood are tough guys, Trump’s and Bush’s empty rhetoric is toughness. For the rest of us who live in the real world, it’s just stupid bluster.
It’s like the people who think that bullies are real tough guys/girls, whereas normal people realize that they just pick on the defenseless to make them seem strong. Picking on Muslims makes matters worse, it increases resentment within the community and against the community, and makes us weaker. If you need to shore up your fragile ego by displaying you are more powerful than other groups, then I guess it’s useful. But cutting your nose off to spite your face is not useful to anyone.
Calouste
@Villago Delenda Est: You should play this game and glue photos of your favorite villagers on the cards ;-)
CONGRATULATIONS!
@srv: I won’t be voting for Trump as he’d just make the problem worse…but I’m right where that commenter is. Can’t defend their fucking religion anymore, or defend allowing inhabitants/refugees of the Mideast into the country, and I’m not going to try any more. God help us all, because we’re not helping ourselves.
Chyron HR
@nonynony:
If I told you that a major political party (and for all intents and purposes, the entire US government) was controlled by the 3% of the population who own all the model trains and baseball cards, would that seem unbalanced?
JMG
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Good work. You’re too cowardly to be an American citizen.
The Ancient Randonnuer
Now that they’ve captured the reincarnation of Osama Bin Laden can we get back to celebrating Talk Like A Pirate Day? Where aaaaaaaarrrre your priorities people?
gvg
A lot of people thought Cheney sounded tough talking about how we couldn’t let even 1% risks go unchallenged. I thought he sounded like a cringing coward was embarrassed the rest of the world saw our vice president show his yellow streak and make us all look bad. that was kind of a revelation to me and afterwards I saw the rest of the tough talkers in a different light. They all scream about 911 as if most of us hadn’t lived through the cold war when we were all really in danger and most of us just got on with living. Trump was a draft dodger too, not that going to Vietnam is something I would be in favor of but geeze, have some self awareness. Once you see it, most of them look pathetic.
FlipYrWhig
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: There have been several terrorist incidents since the election season heated up. None of them have swung support in Trump’s direction. Also, Andrea Mitchell is a fucking disgrace.
hovercraft
@? Martin:
The only time I was ever really scared was back in the early eighties, I was a teenage girl alone (youthful stupidity) on the LL train at about 2 am going out to Canarsie, Brooklyn, and I was sharing the subway car with a group of loud rowdy young men. I waited till the next stop and changed cars, problem solved no big deal. Hey after you’ve had strangers fall asleep on you, grope you and whatnot on the train, you push the offender off and carry on, there’s no time for anything else, I’ve got places to be.
EDIT: I saw a stat somewhere, that since Obama was elected the number of guns owned by the fetishists went from something like 3 on ave. to eight, and that was a couple of years ago. And since every mass shooting boosts sales I’m sure that gone up.
Mike J
@The Ancient Randonnuer: Dammit, I picked the wrong day to work the Democrats’ booth at the state fair. I won’t be there until Wednesday.
Miss Bianca
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Are you serious? Or just trolling?
“I just can’t even with these white male Christian terrorists, because they so often start grabbing guns and shooting up schools and black churches. We certainly shouldn’t allow any more into this country, and I think we should start deporting the ones that are already here. God help us all, because we’re not helping ourselves.”
JMG
I don’t favor it, because in the 21st century an armed forces of professional soldiers is the way to go, but there’s no doubt that if there was still a draft, the mindless belligerence of many Americans would vanish.
mapaghimagsik
@Alain the site fixer:
Most of us just use Yelp.
Barbara
@nonynony: I don’t know that I have seen percentages like this, but I have definitely seen studies indicating that the percentage of people who own guns is at a historic low and trending downward, and that a vastly disproportionate number of weapons are owned by relatively few people. There are lots of reasons — lower percentage of people living in rural locations, lower percentage of people who hunt, voluntary armed services, meaning that it is no longer the case that a very high percentage of men have familiarity and training with firearms, unlike in the generations that came of age between 1920 and 1965. This is one reason why NRA is at near hysteria levels in trying to convince the population that “good” people need to own guns. Everyone knows or should know that its funds come almost entirely from gun manufacturers.
The Ancient Randonnuer
@Mike J: I can’t promise we won’t drink all the beer and smoke all the weed, but we’ll leave the lights on in case you finish early.
goblue72
The toughness of New York City is the reason Kryptonite had to come up with a special NYC version of its bike locks. Amateur hour terrorists don’t stand a chance against your average New York thief.
hovercraft
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
As far as I’m aware msnbc is off the air between 12 and 1 on weekdays. I find this helpful for my health and well being.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Don’t laugh. The May Day bomber that led to the Palmer Raids was thwarted because a US Postal Service clerk, who had immigrated from Eastern Europe to the US, refused to ship almost all of the parcel bombs because of insufficient postage. So they sat on a shelf in the back of a post office in NY City while only a couple of the May Day bombers bombs actually got shipped – apparently postage due, which is sort of adding insult to injury. As much as the line from Tom Clancy’s Patriot Games that “the terrorist only have to get lucky once, law enforcement and Intel agencies have to be lucky every time” is sort of an axiom, it fails to recognize reality. The terrorists have to be fortunate every time as well.
Major Major Major Major
@Calouste: Dooooooom!
Adam L Silverman
@Amir Khalid:
http://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/Donald-Trump/Pride-and-affirmative-prejudice-The-complex-history-of-Donald-Trump-and-the-Jews-468120
He’s not a Muslim, he’s just a bigot.
Gindy51
@? Martin: 3% own the guns… if my ‘hood is any example it sure is correct. One neighbor out of ten owned 5 gun cases stuffed with weapons. Everyone else (back country, rural, boonies, cops take 45 minutes to get here type of place) has hunting rifle or shot gun and maybe a hand gun.
hovercraft
@JMG:
Mike J
@Gindy51: The study said 3% own half the guns, and the other half are owned by just 19%.
Patricia Kayden
@CONGRATULATIONS!: You do know that Christians have committed acts of terrorism right here in the good old U.S.A., right? Should we ban Christians from entering this country? Are we going to eliminate civil rights for certain people because they share the same religion as some terrorists? Sigh.
Major Major Major Major
@hovercraft: Pff. Outdated enlightenment thinking. What we need more of is fear, and judging a billion people based on the worst among them!
Gindy51
Out here in rural-ville just about everyone owns at least one gun. Lots of folks have chickens and a varmint gun is about the safest way to get the varmints away from your domestic stock. We inherited all the guns we have and if there was a buy back in Indiana where I could be 100% sure they’d be destroyed and not resold, i wouldn’t have any.
JGabriel
TPM via Betty Cracker @ Top:
Interestingly, reports said that device in Elizabeth, unlike the others, didn’t have a cell phone attached. Makes me wonder if there was one attached and the guys who found that bomb just kept the phone.
gvg
@nonynony: I uh have a relative who is a collector gun nut. He started young and well he used to win informal drag races with bets. Made plenty of cash but sometimes it was what that kind of guy had as stakes. Then I guess he had some good ones and got interested and began collecting. He had a very public job for years and people who needed cash and had nice guns would sometimes pawn them to him. He tried to be fair about how long they had to give back. He wasn’t an actual dealer with interest, he bought them but also built good will by being willing to sell back for the same price for I guess 6 months. He actually does background checks too which I gather most individuals don’t, but his job had a lot of robberies as normal (grocery store manager) so he was rather aware of that issue. He has been collecting probably 50 years now and he does have alot. Also quite a few gun safes which are incredibly heavy so you need lots of relatives every time you get a new one. I would say he keeps his guns safe and harder to steal. One aspect of this issue though is the danger of being robbed. He always kept quiet and didn’t boast and told us not to mention this because thieves target gun collectors. This is IMO a problem with insurance solutions to gun nuts which needs just like a lot if things, more secure data. If insurance companies know, they have to keep that info very private. Publishing the addresses of collectors is a very very bad idea because the next day you will have a lot more stolen weapons.
I have some concerns about inheritance issues but hope they have worked it out when he dies. It’s going to be worth some significant money to his family. No doubt he could have done more with it in stocks except he doesn’t know anything about stocks and does know guns, so maybe it plays to his strengths. He used to hunt when he was young and poor. He wasn’t actually kidding when he said he couldn’t hunt deer after his little girl saw Bambi until she was grown and moved out. Normally he votes 2nd amendment Republican but he voted for Obama as an Vietnam Vet who saw the resemblance to Iraq. No idea what he will do this year.
I estimate he has been collecting at least 50 years. that is how you build up alot. I knew a lady who bought Disney character figures to the point I wondered if she had some sort of hoarder problem but collectors just don’t stop.
sam
@goblue72: Not just thieves but scavengers. These guys sound less like they were stealing than that they were scavenging stuff that others had left out for trash.
NY is kind of famous for sidewalk ‘vultures’. if you leave anything that has *any* redeeming value out on the sidewalk, it will be gone within minutes. That includes things that require multiple people to carry. That’s how I’ve gotten rid of a good amount of my old furniture – the main trick was finding someone to help me haul it out of my apartment to the sidewalk.
You will sometimes see furniture remnants remaining these days, but only if they have “BEDBUGS” spray painted all over them as a warning to others.
different-church-lady
Boston.com’s banner starts off with *”Police arrest immigrant sought in NYC bombing”. I’m thinking, “Oh, thanks for assimilating Trump’s angle on this on everyone’s behalf, assholes.”
About an hour later it’s changed to a neutral “Police capture man sought in New York-area bombings after shootout”. Either an editor caught it or people bitched them out.
(* From memory, may not be word for word accurate, but “immigrant” was the noun.)
Miss Bianca
@JGabriel: @Major Major Major Major: OK, now that I’ve read that article I finally get M4’s joke…d’oh!
Betty Cracker
@CONGRATULATIONS!: That’s a profoundly ignorant and short-sighted sentiment, but it is shared by many people. Le sigh.
sigaba
Anybody suppose that they planted a bomb in Chelsea, not because there was some running event or whatever, but because a lot of national media types live in Chelsea and we’re going to inevitably cover the event as if it were a personal threat?
Adam L Silverman
@hovercraft: That stat is accurate. The breakdown has become that those individuals that own guns now own more and the numbers of individuals that own guns has, overall, decreased. Apparently there is a break point between those that own 1 or 2 and those that own 7 or more. It is important to remember though that there is a significant portion that have professional connections to firearms. Current, former, and/or retired military are more likely to own firearms. Similar with law enforcement. And there is a group of professional firearm instructors and trainers that also tend to have far more than the average.
feckless
$38 billion for homeland security in 2015, and our only real line of defense against terrorism is homeless people.
I guess it is a good thing we didn’t use that tax money for something beneficial, like housing.
? Martin
@nonynony:
Not at all, but if you told me that ⅓ of US households had a model train set, then I would be skeptical. It’s unusual in any sample for the median to skew so far to one side like that. My guess is that 5% of households at most have a train set. It’s squaring the collection side of this with the observed rate of gun ownership and buying that is difficult, and that’s magnified by the political power that minority group wields.
And I suspect that’s the real driving goal behind the NRA right now. If gun ownership drops. If it drops to where only 15% of the public own a gun (even if each one owns 50 guns) and if they continue to align strongly with the GOP in terms of voting, then they stop being effective as a voting block because they don’t wield as much power as other larger groups, and because their vote can be taken for granted. That’s the problem black voters have – they’re key to Dem victories but they don’t have much policy power because the Dems really only need to dole out the bare minimum to keep them on board. The NRA doesn’t want gun owners to become that group – small and politically concentrated. But gun owners are still a large enough group that Dems need to pander to them in quite a few places.
Roger Moore
@? Martin:
That doesn’t seem that unbelievable to me. There are about as many guns as people in the US(!), which means that 3% of the population would own an average of about 16-17 guns each, which is within the realm of reason. That’s especially true because there are probably a few collectors who own hundreds, or even thousands, of guns. And some of those “collectors” are people who use the gun show loophole to act as unlicensed dealers, which would further skew the numbers.
Gindy51
@gvg: Insurance companies already have to keep info like that private… they are called riders and they cover things worth FAR more than guns… diamonds or other precious things small enough to walk out of a house with and a lot easier to legally get rid of than guns. We have a Civil War rifle that is covered by a rider since our house insurance coverage limits damage recovery to $3000 or less per item.
Adam L Silverman
@gvg: If he’s been collecting that long, just on the likelihood that he has 50 year old revolvers and possibly some WW I and II surplus, if not Civil War as well, his family will do quite well if they choose to liquidate when it becomes an inheritance. Provided he’s maintained everything in good shape. And there are niche markers. For instance, companies that now make stuff in the US for the US market, such as SIG Sauer, have collectors looking for the stuff that was made by the various SIG subsidiaries in Switzerland and West Germany. If he’s sitting on a bunch of old SIGs made in those places, even if they’re only from the 1970s, he’s sitting on a lot of money.
Roger Moore
@Adam L Silverman:
That’s really only true of stochastic terrorism. More organized groups have to worry that if they get unlucky once, it will let the authorities catch the whole gang.
Mai.naem.mobile
@Amir Khalid: offer the Donald a muslin ham sandwich and believe me he will indict it.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: I inherited a number of antique rifles from my BIL’s father. The dude was a real cowboy in Northern Arizona and worked as a guard at the territorial prison. I sold a 44-40 Winchester to and unique firearms dealer who I found online. I didn’t know what to expect when I met him at a local shop but he turned out to be fascinating. He’d graduated from GA Tech and just grew up with an interest in these kinds of guns. I left it feeling a lot better than I had going in and I hope I got a fair price since I just see the money to my sis.
Adam L Silverman
@Roger Moore: True period. In the example before us from this weekend part of the reason they were able to positively ID Rahman so quickly is because he didn’t use burner phones. He used his own cellphones. Ones he’d used to call other people. And he hadn’t reset them to factory standards – just wired them up. This guy was not part of the A Team in any way, shape, or form.
Mary Jo
@sigaba: There’s plenty of evidence to suggest he’s not smart enough for that kind of planning.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
I’m tired of defending any religion that is heavy on afterlife rewards, Christian, Muslim, etc. They tend to build an us vs. them situation that leads to divisiveness, fear, and antipathy in some followers. (Please note that I did not say ALL followers. But fundamentalism tends to produce reductive, simplistic thinking among adherents.)
I am not on board, however, with keeping certain groups out of the country based on color, religion, ethnicity, etc. Some sort of vetting is necessary, but mistakes will be made. That, unfortunately, is what comes with a global society.
However
Amir Khalid
@Adam L Silverman:
If he’s been collecting firearms for half a century, I hope he’s maintaining a proper inventory of those guns. He must have hundreds by now, and it sounds like it would be all too easy to miss the real treasures amidst a forest of less-than-collectible weapons.
NotoriousJRT
@srv:
Why do you come here? Do you have xpect to change minds or is it some form of mental jacking off for you? If you find commiseration with the fear and “exhaustion” expressed in the excerpt you present, sail on, asshole. I do not.
Culture of Truth
@sigaba: They guy they caught, assuming he’s the one, does not seem that bright.
raven
@Amir Khalid: It’s really hard to determine value since some of it is just “what it is worth” to someone. I research several and it was wildly variable. This is the bluebook of gun values but the hard thing is determining “condition”.
http://bluebookofgunvalues.com
Major Major Major Major
@Culture of Truth: They rarely are.
Brachiator
This detail about the recently arrested suspect seems odd.
Why wouldn’t the guy try to hide or escape?
hovercraft
@JGabriel:
According to a local official in Elizabeth, two homeless men found the backpack picked it up hoping for a score, waked to the underpass next to the train station to look inside the bag, saw the wires, dropped the bag and went around the other corner where the police station was located and reported it. They actually carried the bombs about 100 feet, so the were really lucky. Officials are speculating that he may have been trying to simply get rid of the bombs, not necessarily attacking the train station.
Ohio Mom
@hovercraft: When I was a young and foolish teen riding the subway alone late at night, I followed my mother’s instructions and rode in the car with the conductor (for you non-NY ers, that’s the middle car).
Growing up in NY gives you a very clear-eyed, pragmatic view if the world. I sometimes feel remiss that I’ve raised my child in the Buckeye state, that I have denied him something important.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: Glad it went well. There’s really a number of interesting sub subcultures within the firearms subculture itself. You’ve got the 2nd Amendment Absolutists, who overlap a lot of the others, but not every member of the subculture fit within it. You’ve got current and former military. You’ve got current and former law enforcement. You’ve got hunters. You’ve got outdoorspeople that don’t hunt, but recognize that bear spray may just be used by the bear as seasoning on them, so they want a deterrent when out in the woods. You’ve got folks in rural areas, as alluded to by @Gindy51: that have a long gun or two for protecting their live stock and potentially themselves as law enforcement is sparse and response times are long where they live. You’ve got sport/competition shooters. You’ve got instructors You’ve got the folks preparing (prepping) for the End of the World as We Know It (EOTWAWKI). And you’ve got legitimate collectors.
In some way the last group is the most interesting. One point of interest is why they are collecting what they are collecting: all Civil War stuff, or all Army of Tennessee in the Civil War stuff, or all WW I stuff or all WW II stuff, or all pre 1974 Ruger revolvers because they don’t have the safety warnings on the barrels, or only military stuff, or only hunting stuff, or only cowboy stuff. The other point of interest, of course, is they are tremendous fonts of history about what they own, the time periods its from, and how/why it was/would have been used.
I recently helped a friend who has an estate sale business do research for one of his new clients who’s father had a small collection (I help out when he gets a client with military stuff as I either know where to look the stuff up or who to ask). There wasn’t much rhyme or reason to the collection – only that everything is in pristine shape. He’s got one Civil War Colt Army revolver in such good shape it looks like it has never been used. He’s got a WW I .32 ACP general officer/flag officer pocket pistol. He’s got a Civil War single shot pocket pistol – this looks like a scaled down 18th century dueling pistol and is the same gun that is part of the Branch symbol for Army Military Police. Took me three hours to figure that one based on the name of the manufacturer. And there are only two others for sale right now in the US. He’s got two WW II M1s. He’s got a Colt SAA. He’s got a bog standard Remington shotgun. He’s got a high speed, specialty .22 lr target pistol. 9 total pieces – 2 Civil War era (one really obscure), 3 WW I/WWII era, two mid 20th Century revolvers, one specialty target pistol, one bog standard shotgun. I’d love to have been able to find out why this guy collected what he did.
Adam L Silverman
@Amir Khalid: Whoever handles the estate sale should be able to find someone reputable to come in and do a full catalogue and estimation. But you are correct that it will help if he’s maintained a master list.
Mnemosyne
@gvg:
Genuine gun collectors don’t bother me, because they’re usually not going to want a piece of their collection to be potentially damaged by indiscriminate use. At most, they’ll take it to a shooting range or gun show to show it off and then carefully put it back in its case.
It’s the guys who buy brand-new AR-15s and claim it’s a “collection” that worry me.
raven
@Ohio Mom: I was hung up at Midway Airport for hours yesterday so I took a ride on the L at sunrise. Mostly it was an interesting and uneventful ride but when I got off downtown to head back to the airport there was a dude who was really loud and unhinged and it was interesting to watch folks ignore and avoid him.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: This guy was in the Civil War and Cowboy Camp.He had no interest in my 1860 Purdey.
hovercraft
@Ohio Mom:
NYC and especially the subway teaches you valuable lessons. Remember a couple of years ago when all the helicopter parents were up in arms over the Mom who was allowing her eight year old son to go to school on the subway by himself. They wanted her charged with child endangerment. The City is actually very safe unless you go out of your way to put yourself in danger. I grew up all over the place, and you gain valuable lessons from each one. From my time in the country, we learned to steal fruit from the orchards, and ride horses, from the city to be savvy and stand up for myself and never back down.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: Exactly. And you can’t necessarily go but the online actions and postings at the online sites. For instance you can see US Army M1 carbines from WW II post from anywhere between $850 and $2,400. Depending on whether the parts match, or how many do or don’t – many were rebuilt using different runs of stock (sights, triggers, stocks, barrels, etc) as needed during the war and while GM had the main contract, there were many subcontractors and they’d swap parts as needed. And there’s sort of an artificial scarcity. Apparently we have a large cache of M1s stored in South Korea that we can’t bring back home for sale in the US government sponsored military surplus programs. So what’s in circulation in the US is what’s in circulation in the US… And there’s other considerations. As I’ve remarked I purchased, from an estate sale, a Civil War era Remington 1859 Army .44 caliber cap and ball revolver. I purchased it as a historic collectible from the Civil War for display – not use. I took it to The Horse Soldier in Gettysburg for appraisal. They specialize in this stuff. In the condition it is in it is worth approximately $500.00. They provided me with who they use for restoration, and who I am overdue in contacting, and estimate it will cost me about $500 to have it restored. Once restored its value will be between $1,100 to (maybe) $1,300 depending on who might want it (I’m not planning on selling it). It has a family history – that it was used by the late owners grandfather during the Civil War. There are letters from this officer, however, they are so old and so poorly preserved they are illegible. Even if I had a photo of the officer with the revolver it would not significantly increase the collectible value.
Anoniminous
@srv:
Dude/Dudette:
“Mugged by reality” is 1990s. Need to bring your bullshit talking points forward by 20 years.
@Villago Delenda Est:
But it IS a fine example of genuine frontier gibberish.
hovercraft
@raven:
So you encountered a typical New Yorker on the L?
Chris
@Patricia Kayden:
Was it you who was asking yesterday if there were any bigots still in the Dem party? I think you just got your answer.
catclub
@? Martin:
If 80/20 rules are recursive:
20% own 80% of the guns
of those 20%, 20% (=4% of the total) of them own 80% of 80% = 64 %
so it looks pretty good on that.
Miss Bianca
OK, completely o/t, but William Shatner’s “Common People” is making me crack up on a “Monday, Monday” kind of afternoon.
Immanentize
@hovercraft: sweet reply. thank you.
hovercraft
And one more thing to all of you looking down your noses at our ahem habit of shopping for bargains on the street. Just because we are done with things does not mean someone else will not find them useful, sidewalk and dumpster diving are time honored traditions here. This is an expensive area to live in, and we take our savings anywhere we can find them. As long as you look around and make sure there is no one who seems to have a claim to said property, then it’s finders keepers. We don’t have places for yard sales so we just leave it out on the street for someone else to relieve us of the crap. You’re welcome.
Betty Cracker
@Immanentize: Completely random question: Are you the person who mentioned Cajun crab-stuffed peppers yesterday? And if so, could you point me to a recipe? Thanks!
Immanentize
@Adam L Silverman: @gvg:
I am not sure anyone mentioned this above — but your, uh, relative should investigate starting a gun trust which is the newest legal way to make sure that the weapons are distributed appropriately outside of the testate laws of your jurisdiction. I get a goddam email about gun trust webinars every week, so it is a pretty popular thing right now.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Adam L Silverman:
I have a really sweet shooting M1 carbine with the original sling and oiler. As I remember (haven’t broken it out for years), it was made by a typewriter company whose name escapes me.
Last time I tried to get rid of it (I was bored with shooting it, and wanted to maybe try something different) the guy at the retail shop sadly shook his head and told me he couldn’t move wood stock items – and pointed at everything gathering dust on his walls. He was pretty disdainful of his clientele over it, said he could “move any black plastic stock piece of shit so long as it looked vaguely military and tactical, and nobody wants good rifles”.
He thought he might be able to move the Garand I brought with me if he mounted it with a scope, but for me, it was two or nothing.
raven
@hovercraft: Bubbles!
JMG
@hovercraft: In Boston, Aug.31-Sept, 1 are known as Allston Christmas, as those are the days student apartment leases turn over in that neighborhood and elsewhere, and streets are full of possibly useful items.
Adam L Silverman
@Immanentize: indubitably! excellent advice.
Patricia Kayden
@Chris: Yes it was me. I’m hoping CONGRATULATIONS! was just venting and doesn’t actually believe that a religious group numbering over 1 billion should be discriminated against because of a few idiots in its midst. If so, he’d have to explain what to do with all the violent Christianists here who shoot up abortion clinics or go into churches and shoot up Bible Study participants because they’re Black. Let’s all try to stay sane even when we’re facing terrorist attacks.
Eric U.
@? Martin: I didn’t realize that 3% was of the entire population. In that case, it seems reasonable to me. I have known a lot of gun owners, but the ones that own more than a couple own dozens. And then there are the real basket cases that own hundreds or even thousands. There was a relatively recent story of a guy that had 10000 guns in random piles in his house. If you wanted to sell a gun, he would buy it, so he had a lot of stolen weapons.
The Ancient Randonnuer
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
Probably a Smith-Corona. I’ve got an M1903 Springfield made by them and I believe they manufactured M1’s when they became standard issue for the infantry.
Kryptik
@Patricia Kayden:
Also would need to explain to Juicers who might happen to be Muslim how they and they’re religion is at fault and how, for our safety, they shouldn’t be in this country. Because that’s a mighty wide brush to be painting with, and seeing it used here is not something I’m happy about.
raven
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: My old man landed the 1st Bn, 503d on the beach on Corregidor and one of the paratroopers got hit. The old man was giving him first aid and he put his binocs and folding stock carbine over his own neck. Eventually they had to make a run for the LCM on th beach and my old mann thought he was being shot when he realized the items were hitting him in the chest as he ran. I have the binocs but somewhere the carbine got lost. I also have a stadimeter/sextant from his ship that was made by Shick.
Adam L Silverman
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Inland Manufacturing? That was GM’s in house subsidiary that was the primary manufacturer of M1s. And it depends on the location for movement.
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: Watching roaches! CLIMB! THE WALLS!
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker: That is hardly a random question — it is a tasty one! But it is crab stuffed tomatoes!
I don’t have a specific recipe — I learned this from a former giirlfriend’s cajun mom from Lafayette (living in Houston) — here is what I do:
Depending on size — take 4-6 nice big tomatoes, cut off the top and core them and get the water and seeds out. Save the innards! At this point I put a paper towel in each tomato shell and put them back in the fridge for a while to both dry them out and firm them up.
Get a pint of lump crab meat — or go catch some crab (about 1 lb of meat).
Mix the crab with some chopped onion and chopped red pepper (actually, I use a semi-hot like an anaheim pepper from my garden) maybe 1/3 cup or less of each.
Mix in two slices of good white bread, no crusts, cut into small bits (some people grate the bread)
1 egg
Cut up the tomato pieces (not seeds or liquid) from above and add about 1/3 cup to the mix
salt, black pepper to taste and 1 teaspoon (plus) of Tony’s or other cajun mix to your liking…. stir it all up.
Put the mix into the tomato shells, top with Parmesan if you like (I do) and then back at 350 for about 25-30 minutes or until the top is golden but tomatoes are still intact. I use a muffin tin for the baking…. scoop them out and enjoy.
Mnemosyne
@hovercraft:
When we finally broke down and bought a flat-screen TV, G put our old 20″ tube TV out on the curb with the remote control taped to the top. I think it was gone within 2 hours on a weeknight.
Adam L Silverman
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: @The Ancient Randonnuer: Smith-Corona didn’t make M1s. Here’s the list:
http://fulton-armory.com/faqs/M1C-FAQs/M1Carbine.htm
Miss Bianca
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Ooh, does that mean I could pick up a good wood-stock rifle cheap? My friend the gun nut – er, enthusiast – is trying to talk me into a hunting rifle.
Patricia Kayden
@Kryptik: True. Amir Khalid jumps to my mind.
Mnemosyne
@Miss Bianca:
@Major Major Major Major:
I really think that’s one of those songs that comes across better when sung by an older person, like Johnny Cash’s version of “Hurt.” To me, Shatner comes across like he’s the guy’s dad warning him off that kind of rich girl.
And Joe Jackson does the parts that require actual singing, which makes it even better.
Miss Bianca
@Major Major Major Major: IKR? I love that man.
JCJ
@hovercraft:
When I spent a year of college in Hamburg Germany the study center Purdue and IU had near campus was furnished with Sperrmüll. At least once a year there was a night for people to put stuff out like unwanted furniture. It was the duty of all of us there to try to find nicer stuff than was already present. Thee were a couple of decent couches, a ping pong table, dishware, a record player (this was 1981) and many other things that had been accumulated over the years.
The Ancient Randonnuer
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks! Just a guess on my part but I see that Underwood manufactured M1’s on your list.
Kryptik
@Patricia Kayden: Seeing that kind of shit just upsets me for one key reason: we’ve seen this movie before. And we’ve seen where those kinds of mass generalizations and acting on said generalizations will lead to. Happened with the Irish. Happened with Italians. Happened (and in many ways still happening) to Jews. Still actively happening with Blacks and Hispanics. Muslims are just the latest in the line of ‘other’ to be treated as public enemy #1, where every bad thing is proof positive of the entire group’s evil and mendacity, and any good thing is simply ‘one of the good ones’.
EDIT: Not to mention how often those who are simply mistaken for said ‘other’ get caught up in the mess and become victims just as much as the ‘good ones’ of the ‘other’.
Adam L Silverman
@The Ancient Randonnuer: Yep. And as I think I remarked in my original response to Raven, very few WW II guns save the original run from Inland had pieces and parts from only one manufacturer. And that’s before they started coming back in to the Army arsenals for refurbishment as needed.
Immanentize
@Mnemosyne: I hope you all have seen Shatner’s brilliant parody of himself and the movie Se7en….
CONGRATULATIONS!
Hell yes. Been beaten by them personally. More than once.
It would be the best thing we’d ever do for America.
@Patricia Kayden: Looks that way, whatever you or I may think of the merits.
Sorry, done with fundies and ALL the religions that enable and encourage them.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Miss Bianca:
I think so – I suspect that the glut may have subsided a bit, but I think you can still pick one up for a really nice price.
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: I hear he’s actually horrid.
@CONGRATULATIONS!: You want to remove/bar from entry all religious humans? Because the list of religions that don’t have violent fundamentalists is of length zero.
hovercraft
@JMG:
@Mnemosyne:
@JCJ:
Thanks for the solidarity, the benefits of recycling should never be knocked.
gwangung
@Kryptik: AND IT HAPPENED TO JAPANESE AMERICANS!
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Major Major Major Major: Sounds great to me. If all religions breed violent fundamentalists – and you and I agree, they sure do – then hell yes, ban them all.
1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet)
@hovercraft: It can also be difficult to manage to dispose of larger items, or to get things to the thrift shops and other places that sell used goods. I used to live in an apartment complex in Clarksville, Tennessee where a good many people stationed at Ft. Campbell lived–and when they moved, things got left behind, because people couldn’t always manage to take everything. So there was an understood procedure for leaving things out where they could be picked through and claimed by someone else who needed them. I imagine this happens in lots of places–it’s finders keepers, and if you don’t need that lamp or griddle or box of baby clothes, someone else might, so don’t trash it just for laughs.
Major Major Major Major
@CONGRATULATIONS!: How do you feel about ideologies with violent adherents?
dimmsdale
@Adam L Silverman: Interesting, Adam. When you say ‘restore’ it reminds me that in the antique/collectible car biz there’s a split between spare-no-expense restoration ($15,000 paint jobs and so on) and leave-it-alone originalism (as in, “it’s only ORIGINAL once!”) Oddly, the preserve as-is part of the market is getting hot and prices are going up for solid original cars; I wonder if the same is true for firearms? (I have a .50-cal Remington rolling block pistol that the 14-year-old me ruined with bottle bluing and 400 grit. So when you say you’re having the .44 “restored,” I wonder what you mean.)
Mnemosyne
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
So ban all immigration, from every country. Yeah, that’s practical.
schrodinger's cat
@Patricia Kayden: If we list all the acts of violence perpetrated under the guise of Jesus told me to do this vs. Allah told me to do this, throughout the millennia I am pretty sure followers of Jesus have that contest sewn up.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: Not just immigration but visitors too. No other country will retaliate because big dumb Donald says so.
divF
@Major Major Major Major:
Uhh, no – Quakers, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Unitarians come to mind. However, your larger point is well-taken.
hovercraft
Speaking of the goings on in Jersey, today is the first day of the Bridgegate trial.
Hey maybe Christie didn’t understand the implications of the bragging.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: I have a Saginaw 3 speed and Rochester carb in my 66 chev!
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Major Major Major Major:
@Mnemosyne:
That’s where I’m at. The first time I got the shit kicked out of me by some Jesus freak who didn’t approve of my religious choices, I was four years old. It kept going until I got big enough to hurt them more than they could hurt me. So pardon, but I’m done with religion and the inevitable baggage that we have to tolerate by those who make it a lifestyle. So yeah! Ban it all, now. And yeah, it’s not practical, but it’s a hell of a lot more practical than Dumbfuck Donald’s Deportation Fiesta.
Miss Bianca
@1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet):
Hey- then would that be the Clarksville of “Last Train to Clarksville”? (sorry, I’m in a pop music frame of mind today).
Humdog
@CONGRATULATIONS!: No, you are done with our freedoms then. You cannot ban people for their beliefs, jack ass. You are sounding very fundamentalist yourself here.
People are to be judged for their actions, that is all we can witness. You are proposing unAmerican actions, so I ban YOU!
Phylllis
@hovercraft: We have at least 2-3 local residents who spend their days riding around town picking up whatever is left by the road. They are a more reliable and handier junk removal service than our weekly garbage pickup.
Several years ago I put an ironing board out that would give way unexpectedly, leaving me ironing air. The lady who snagged it about ten minutes after I put it out looked so pleased with herself that I’ve always felt a little bad about it.
Aimai
@CONGRATULATIONS!: oh for fucks sake there are A BILLION muslims. Do you think they will all convert because assholes like you start attacking their religion? use your fucking head.
Mnemosyne
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
How exactly is calling for an even bigger deportation and immigration ban than Donald’s “more practical” than his?
Leaving aside, of course, that you’re supporting his call to suspend immigration of Muslims based on their religion, and want to extend that ban across the board.
But, hey, if you want to go wave a sign at Trump’s next rally, you go join your fellow bigots and do that. Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.
Betty Cracker
@Immanentize: Bookmarked, and thank you!
raven
@Miss Bianca: No, that’s when I got on the train in Chicago after being inducted 50 years ago in November. The ing had just come out and they said it actually had nothing to do with Ft Campbell, the Nam or me but it sure seemed that way.
The Ancient Randonnuer
@Miss Bianca:
The Air Force base he is talking about is actually Fort Campbell, Kentucky and it’s an Army installation.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Aimai: I don’t want them to “convert”. Damn, I fucking hate religious people, is that not clear?
At any rate, Juicers, I’ll leave. With an observation. Fear always wins in the short term. What these bombers are doing is interfering with our electoral process far more than any Russian hack agency ever could. And they’re working for Trump. Now, I’m not an idiot and although these people (their religion is of no consequence, all religions are finding out America’s a great place to bomb, looks like) think they will influence my vote, they will not. I will be pulling the lever for Secretary Clinton in November, just like I have pulled it for the Dem in every election since 1984. But they will influence the votes of a lot of other folks, and it wouldn’t take much to flip this, or any other, election. You might want to consider a response that is somewhat more reassuring to all the terrified people (and that includes me) than “steady as she goes and business as usual, Americans”.
Because that’s no longer an acceptable answer to me as a voting American. And more to the point, it’s no longer an acceptable response to most of the citizens of this country.
Dadadadadadada
@hovercraft: Perth Amboy! My grandparents lived there!
Dadadadadadada
@CONGRATULATIONS!: The suspect is an American of Afghan ancestry. Nothing at all to do with refugees from Syria or anywhere else.
Mnemosyne
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Except that the response you want won’t work and would actually make things worse, but your irrational bigotry means you will never be able to understand that.
I’m still wondering what, exactly, makes you different than the guy who hates all black people because he got beat up by some black kids when he was younger. Right now, I’m not seeing any difference.
FlipYrWhig
@CONGRATULATIONS!: There was no stampede to Trump after Nice or any of the American terrorist-style attacks.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Aimai:
Did I miss where CONGRATULATIONS required Muslims to convert to some other religion? I’m reading it that (s)he rather wishes all religions would just fade away (like old soldiers). I recall that Lennon chap asking us to imagine a world of no religion.
Of course, such a world is unlikely to exist anytime soon, superstitious thinking being what it is. My take is that CONGRATULATIONS has maybe reached a saturation point on such stories as inspired the original rant. Perhaps tomorrow, (s)he will feel differently — I hope so.
Matt McIrvin
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
I’m not that fond of ’em either, but it’s a far cry from treating all their adherents as walking bombs. This is a mistake Richard Dawkins makes: he imagines that people are like simple CPUs or ribosomes that execute memes, and afterlife-belief is this code that runs in your head that logically makes you care less about this world than the next and makes you into a potential suicide bomber. It’s way, way more complicated than that.
Weaselone
@FlipYrWhig:
That’s different. This was in the US and nobody died. New Yorker’s sat around after the explosion sipping drinks and dining on bar food. You can’t fathom the horror.
Mnemosyne
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
As Elvis Costello pointed out, Lennon was also a millionaire who said imagine no possessions so, yeah, there are multiple hypocrisy problems with that song.
Chris
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Ah, the “a black guy mugged me, therefore I am a righteous victim rather than a foaming at the mouth bigot” ploy. How original.
FEMA Camp Counselor
@Mnemosyne: Well, there’s a reason a chunk of the “New” Atheists went off the deep end into neoconservatism(Hitchens), support of torture(Harris), and allying with the alt-right/MRA types(Dawkins).
hovercraft
@Dadadadadadada:
The waterfront area is absolutely gorgeous, with huge victorians. It was the first capital of New Jersey back in the 1600’s.
And incidentally a previous residence for the Chelsea bomber. They conducted a search but came up empty.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Mnemosyne: who beats up a four year old for religious viewpoint anyway, I wonder. IF it was a parent or guardian, it smacks of systemic abuse from an early age, which would cause some serious attachment/trust issues. If it were done by a religious figure and his/her parents ignored the abuse, that would be terrible. If it were some religious age cohort who happened to be Christian who beat up our four year old CONGRATULATIONS, that could produce some serious resentment and distrust of certain religious folk.
My point? Sometimes I’ve noticed that when a longtime BJer wanders off the reservation a little, he or she gets greeted with a lot of FFS’s and such. Maybe a little more reasoned cajoling and sympathy might prove more useful. Sticks, yes, but a carrot or two (words of kindness and sympathy if not agreement and endorsement) might be in order… YMMV.
Major Major Major Major
@FEMA Camp Counselor: that being? They’re humans?
What’s your point?
Betty Cracker
@CONGRATULATIONS!: One thing you have in common with the Trumpites is a longing for a simple solution — some magic wand to make it all go away. The hard truth is that there are no simple solutions. Your proposal, which is the same as Trump’s, is a simplistic solution to a complex problem that would actually make things worse. You’re not an idiot. Surely you can see that?
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Matt McIrvin: Quite so. I am no longer religious but know many who are. Discounting them as insane or pointless is wildly counter productive and foolish and arrogant.
Major Major Major Major
@West of the Rockies (been a while): that’s a very good point, thanks for saying it.
That said, I don’t know if it’s cool to speculate about childhood abuse.
Mnemosyne
@Matt McIrvin:
Also, too, there are problems all around the world with multiple religions going nutty fundamentalist, including Hindus in India who are rioting to prevent non-Hindus from eating beef and conflicts between different Jewish sects in Israel, with Orthodox men beating women who dare to ride on “their” bus. Plus we have the various white male American nutjobs of indeterminate religion who are lashing out with guns in movie theaters, at Arizona political rallies, at or near colleges, etc.
It’s almost like there’s an overall adjustment problem that’s affecting people of all religions (and even non-religious people) rather than religion being the source of the problem.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Mnemosyne: from what I’ve read, dear old John was a colossal add and hypocritical, yes, but those words I mentioned resonate for many.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@West of the Rockies (been a while): ass, not add.
Roger Moore
@Major Major Major Major:
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a violent fundamentalist Unitarian Universalist.
Dadadadadadada
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Sit the next few plays out, as Mr. Pierce is fond of saying.
I don’t know or care how many voters have changed their minds due to the bombings. I hope it’s not many. But if an election can be swayed by a couple poorly-placed bombs that don’t even kill anyone, then America is in more trouble than I thought.
“Business as usual” is actually the perfect response to things like this. We are in no more danger than before. If we act like this idiot made no difference in our lives and our election, then he won’t have made a difference.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne:
That would be Sanghi nutjobs. Jains on the other hand use their financial muscle to prevent the sale and consumption of food they consider offensive.
Mnemosyne
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
I have heard the story from CONGRATULATIONS! before, and it was a story of being beaten up on the playground by another kid the same age.
I realize that religious abuse happens and is pernicious — read LoveJoyFeminism if you need any current news on that front — but blaming all people of every religion for one’s own abuse is like hating all Mexican immigrants because your sister was murdered by one.
Major Major Major Major
@Roger Moore: I’m sure there’s one somewhere, but you get the point.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Major Major Major Major: you’re right, 4M, I guess I did speculate. I’m just trying, I guess, to understand CONGRATULATIONS. My apologies big C if I overstepped.
Miss Bianca
@The Ancient Randonnuer: Honest to God, it’s tidbits like this that just make me value this joint and all (well, most) of its commenters so much. : )
Dadadadadadada
@hovercraft: My peeps lived on Gordon and Water Street, a stone’s throw from the channel between Staten Island and the mainland. Good times…
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Mnemosyne: I hadn’t heard the story. Again, I think C will come around to rethinking the whole ban ’em all thing. I hope so.
Matt McIrvin
@Mnemosyne: Well, to be fair, that’s also the response that gun enthusiasts have to liberals when we want to pass sweeping gun restrictions after a mass shooting. Mass shootings are a lot like terrorist incidents (some incidents, in fact, are both at the same time): they’re fairly rare, don’t really constitute a major component of everyday risk to the median person, but have an outsize power to terrify and shock the conscience. And they figure they’re being picked on for the actions of a deranged few, much like moves to ban Muslim immigration.
So the next step is to think about the differences. The Second Amendment people insist that when they carry their AR-15s around they’re exercising as fundamental a right as freedom of religion. There’s the question of whether or not that is true, but also, I suppose, the fact that changing what you buy and possess is a lot easier than changing who you are or what you believe.
Ohio Mom
Yeah, even here in suburban Ohio, stuff too big for the trash can that is left out in plain view on garbage night occasionally gets adopted and escapes (temporarily at least) the landfill. But as with many other things, there is more to it in New York.
When my aunt was cleaning out her recently deceased mother’s East Village apartment, she’d fill a brown paper grocery bag with stuff from the pantry, go outside the building and leave the bag on a car. By the time she’d come down with the next bag, the first bag was gone. And it was stuff like half empty boxes of crackers and cold cereal. Perfectly edible of course. She was proud to have accomplished in one swoop emptying the kitchen and doing a good deed.
Miss Bianca
@CONGRATULATIONS!: why the heck are you “terrified”? I mean, I could understand it if you were terrified of native-born white guys with guns, because you’re far more likely to be shot by one of them than blown up by a “Muslim immigrant terrorist”. I really don’t get it.
Mnemosyne
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
The other reason that reaction bugs me is that what happened in NYC seems to be yet another example of what I’ve been able to get Adam Silverman to call “hashtag terrorism.” It’s not that we have all of these deeply devout Muslim jihadists suddenly going on the rampage. It’s that we have the same kind of deeply disaffected losers or pairs of losers that we’ve always had running around with easy access to weaponry who have found a new rallying cry: “I’m doing it for #ISIS!”
That means it’s not a religious problem, any more than Columbine was a high school problem or Colorado was a movie theater problem. It’s an American society problem that is being expressed by the same demographic group of disaffected (mostly) white males, only some of them are now Muslims.
Taking action against one religion or even all religions won’t solve the problem, because it’s not a religious problem here in the US. It’s a very familiar American problem in slightly different wrapping.
Weaselone
@Matt McIrvin:
What sweeping gun restrictions?
NotoriousJRT
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
I don’t get why you are so flipping terrified? Maybe I have missed some biographical info that explains why you want to indict entire groups for the actions of individuals? I am sorry that you are so afraid, but I have no evidence that your terror is rational.
Emma
@CONGRATULATIONS!: And what do we do with the natural-born ones?
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Jesus Christ. What are so afraid of?
FEMA Camp Counselor
@Major Major Major Major: That being that they’ve got a lot of unexamined baggage and prejudices that get tied up in their opposition to religion/commitment to “rationalism”.
Bill Arnold
@sam:
Ah, thank you. Was wondering how long the thread would run until somebody described this effect.
People who aren’t NYC dwellers do not understand the tradeoffs made between space and stuff.
Stuff loses, usually. If you want to give a gift to a NYC resident, give something consumable like food or wine. (Friends who live in Manhattan have told me this more than once.)