Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“Let’s not pretend [Trump] wants to engage in high-minded discourse.”

I desperately hope that, yet again, I am wrong.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

Republican speaker of the house Mike Johnson is the bland and smiling face of evil.

There is one struggling party in US right now, and it’s not the Democrats.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

Republicans would impeach Biden if he bit into a whole Kit Kat rather than breaking the sections apart.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

Let there be snark.

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Maybe you would prefer that we take Joelle’s side in ALL CAPS?

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.

At some point, the ability to learn is a factor of character, not IQ.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

You cannot shame the shameless.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

Glad to see john eastman going through some things.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2016 / Vice Presidential Debate Thread

Vice Presidential Debate Thread

by | 362 Comments

This post is in: ,

NYMag, “What to Expect in the Vice Presidential Debate“:

How can I watch it?
The debate will air on all major networks and cable news channels. You can also stream the debate online via Facebook (with ABC News coverage), Twitter (with Bloomberg coverage), and YouTube (with coverage from PBS, Fox News, Telemundo, Bloomberg, NBC News, and the Washington Post). You’ll also find feeds on many websites, including C-SPAN, CNN, and Politico. Basically, it’ll be hard to avoid.

Who’s moderating?
Elaine Quijano, a CBS News correspondent and anchor for CBSN, the network’s 24-hour streaming news service. Quijano, who is Filipino-American, will be the first Asian-American to moderate a general election debate. At 42, she’s also the youngest moderator since Judy Wodruff moderated in 1988 at 41.

What’s the format?
According to the Commission on Presidential Debates, the forum will be divided into nine segments. Each section will begin with a question from the moderator, and the candidates will each have two minutes to respond. The moderator will use the rest of the time for “a deeper discussion of the topic.”…

The Guardian‘s invaluable liveblog is here.

ETA:

Kaine’s doing real good, with the first couple questions!

Reader Interactions

362Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    BuzzFeed

    Mike Pence Argued In An Op-Ed That Disney’s “Mulan” Was Liberal Propaganda
    “Obviously, this is Walt Disney’s attempt to add childhood expectation to the cultural debate over the role of women in the military,” Pence wrote. Obviously.

  7. 7.

    SenyorDave

    @NotMax: Kaine will be debating an actual, not just aspirational, bucket of spit.

    I realize that bucket of spit works, but I think another type of bucket is more appropriate, just need to substitute in an “H”.

  12. 12.

    hovercraft

    @Baud:
    He’s a zealot, when he signed the religious freedom act he wasn’t pandering, he’s a true believer. He’s another Rick Santorum. A shitstain.

  16. 16.

    Cacti

    @hovercraft:

    He’s a zealot, when he signed the religious freedom act he wasn’t pandering, he’s a true believer. He’s another Rick Santorum. A shitstain.

    He was genuinely surprised when business distanced itself from his efforts to make Indiana the “God hates fags!” State.

  20. 20.

    dmsilev

    @RaflW: FaceBook, mostly. A really annoying game, because to do well in it, you had to bug your friends to “help out”.

  25. 25.

    PaulWartenberg2016

    My cousins work at that university so they are in attendance tonight.

    SO EVERYBODY BEHAVE THEMSELVES DAMMIT!

    I don’t want them coming out of this with tear gas or riot police in their faces, alright?!?!

  28. 28.

    Hal

    Who would have thought Rupaul’s Drag Race would have a Trump controversy? Guest judge Lucian Piane likes Drumpf. Not that he’s going to vote for him, ok? Plus, words of insight from Willam, former contestant and originator of the phrase “your tone seems very pointed right now” which if you don’t watch the show will never make sense. But in case anyone ever hears the phrase in day to day life, you’ll know where it came from.

    “His role on Drag Race is basically that of an antagonist, and it seems like he’s continuing to do that with some people,” actor, author and former RPDR contestant Willam Belli said in an interview.

    “Look at Peter Thiel,” Belli continued, referencing the Silicon Valley billionaire who funded a lawsuit that put an end to Gawker.com back in August. “Once people get a little bit of money they start sympathizing with Republicans sometimes because of taxes. I don’t know if he’s that rich or what his deal is or why he likes Trump. Look, I don’t like Trump. I just don’t. It’s because of what he did to the community I lived in growing up in Atlantic City when I was a kid. A lot of my friends’ parents lost jobs because of his fuckin’ casino bullshit. But look, I’m not bothered because he lives in California and we all know that California is already Hillary.”

    In response to some of the criticism lobbied against him by gays on Twitter, Piane tweeted that LGBTQ issues “should be nowhere near the top of deciding factors for this election. People are dying. Wake up.”

    https://m.mic.com/articles/155798/ru-paul-s-drag-race-judge-lucian-piane-supports-trump-claims-lgbtq-issues-unimportant#.UVA57L7yr

  30. 30.

    lollipopguild

    I remember when Indiana passed the state law making it legal to discriminate against gay people. Pence keep saying that the law did Not discriminate while all of the law’s supporters keep saying that that’s exactly what the law allowed. Good Times.

  33. 33.

    Anne Laurie

    @Baud:

    Everytime they say Farmville, I await Superman’s appearance.

    I thought Farmville was that cellphone game app where all the kewl moms were annoying their Facebook circles to death, maybe five years ago?

  34. 34.

    Corner Stone

    Man. I am so damn sad unemployment is under 5% and the DJI is over 18K.
    That is so fucking sad.

  35. 35.

    Baud

    Well I was born in a small town
    And I live in a small town
    Probably die in a small town
    Oh, those small communities

  37. 37.

    Elizabelle

    Pence has a nice speaking manner, but started out with a litany of lies, so I am relaxing.

    Kaine rocked his opening statement. Glad he mentioned Farmville’s claim to [shame] fame.

    Oh great: first question: why is Hillary so untrustworthy?

    Mainstream media pleasuring themselves again.

  38. 38.

    hilts

    During his 12 years in Congress, Pence received a 4 percent lifetime score on the League of Conservation Voters’ (LCV) National Environmental Scorecard. According to LCV, Pence did not cast a single “pro-environment vote” out of the 20 key votes he took related to air pollution, the 25 key votes he took related to clean energy, the 20 key votes he took related to climate change or the 40 key votes he took related to drilling.

    h/t Ecowatch

  40. 40.

    dr. bloor

    Kaine is going to be a mix of Freddie Mercury, Miles Davis, and Ronnie Cox circa “Apple’s Way” that will leave Mike Pen-is crying for his mother by the end of the evening.

  48. 48.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Now for Kaine. He’s praised Clinton’s character. Why do 60% of voters not trust Hillary Clinton? Quijano mentions “emails and her foundation.”

    the biggest scandal involving “her foundation” was, AFAIK, two donors got tickets to a State Dept luncheon.

  49. 49.

    dr. bloor

    @Baud:

    In my little town
    I never meant nothin’
    I was Just my father’s son
    Saving my money
    Dreaming of glory
    Twitching like a finger
    On the trigger of a gun
    Leaving nothing but the dead and dying
    Back in my little town

  50. 50.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    The world is “literally spinning out of control”.

    Well, it’s literally spinning, but I thought these guys didn’t buy that science stuff.

  54. 54.

    RaflW

    Pence is winning this back and forth. Dang it.

    Kaine seems nervous. He needs to settle down and be himself.

  55. 55.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    I wish Tim wouldn’t jump in like that. He’s right, of course, but it comes off as ruder than I would like us to be seen.

  57. 57.

    PsiFighter37

    Wow, Tim Kaine is trying to bigfoot Mike Pence…a bit risky, since he has mostly a nice-guy aura.

  63. 63.

    Mary G

    @dmsilev: Avalanche of insults. Pence is so overmatched. Kaine isn’t afraid to Interrupt and talk over Pence either. Before the lie comes out of his mouth Kaine is refuting it.

  64. 64.

    WaterGirl

    Pence’s “soft” voice gives me the creeps. It’s taking me back to when Reagan and how people believed in him even when he wasn’t saying anything that mattered. God help us if the electorate is still that stupid, or worse.

  73. 73.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Pence says that Iraq is overrun by Isis because CLinton failed to negotiate a status-of forces disagreement.
    Kaine drops some history on Pence, telling him that George W Bush negotiated the agreement.

    In the MSNBC booth, Brian Williams just looked at Chuck Todd and said, “Is that true?”. Chris Hayes started to say something, but Chuck confidently said, “No”.

  75. 75.

    Jibeaux

    It’s so weird how Republicans think the economy is a disaster but my Republican governor thinks in my state it’s really excellent? Weird,right?

  76. 76.

    Anne Laurie

    @opiejeanne:

    Damn, Pence is white!

    Hey, that’s 45% of his political appeal, that glimmering whiteness.

    The other 55% is the smug Christianist hatred for “everybody who is not a smug Christianist like us”, of course.

  81. 81.

    WaterGirl

    I’d like to see the amounts of time that each of them is getting to speak. Feels like Pence is getting a lot more time.

  86. 86.

    sempronia

    I’m finding it harder to listen to this debate (it’s radio) because Pence sounds smooth and can speak in complete, reasonable-sounding sentences. Listening to him actually makes me angrier than listening to Trump, cuz Trump just sounded crazy, which is fine. Kaine keeps jumping in to rebut, and it makes him seem rude.

  87. 87.

    Elizabelle

    Mike Pence: such an avalanche of success in Indiana that he heaved himself onto the Trump train.

    Anything not to face Hoosier voters again, all by his lonesome.

    Also: all the emphasis on the debt: that’s Koch Brothers speaking.

  95. 95.

    piratedan

    wow… have to say, Pence is silky smooth. Granted, most of everything that comes out of his mouth is simply horseshit, but its smooth soothing horseshit. For some people, it will play.

    For anyone paying attention, its total and utter crap, age old problem, who the fuck is paying attention.

  98. 98.

    Steve in the ATL

    Kaine won this debate before it even started, when he said that the Replacements’ “Let It Be” is one of his favorite albums.

  100. 100.

    randy khan

    “He went through a very difficult time.” Oh, my.

    Switching back and forth with the baseball game because there’s only so much I can take.

  101. 101.

    danielx

    @Cacti:

    He was genuinely surprised when business distanced itself from his efforts to make Indiana the “God hates fags!” State.

    True dat. His predecessor Mitch Daniels was a standard issue corporate Republican; I can deal with those guys (detestable as they are) because you know where they’re coming from. (Simple enough, follow the fuckin’ money.) Mitch would have written a statement something like this: I understand and honor the feelings of those backing this piece of legislation, but I do not feel it is in our state’s long term economic interests. Therefore, with great reluctance, I am vetoing this bill.

    Which is one of several reasons Daniels was and is detested by the state’s wingnut/tea party/yahoo population. Pence is a true believer and dumber than a barrel of hair, and there are still a hell of lot of signs around saying Pence Must Go. His re-election hopes were vanishing like a drop of water in a hot skillet, so his selection by the orange fuckweasel came at the just the right moment. With any luck at all, we will see not only Trump’s but Pence’s political future going down like Peggy Noonan on a statue of Ronald Reagan.

    Sez the NYT, How Well Do You Know The (vice presidential candidates)? Response: all too well in Mike Pence’s case.

    Oddly enough, in a previous life (about a thousand years ago), I worked with Pence’s brother. He was/is a nice guy, not a wingnut, and far from an idiot. Go figure….

  103. 103.

    Mary G

    They might as well have sent out a tape recorder to spew Republican talking points at random.

  105. 105.

    father pussbucket

    @sempronia:

    Kaine keeps jumping in to rebut, and it makes him seem rude.

    Yeah, I’m afraid of this turning into “both sides do it”.

  106. 106.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Kaine: “Fifteen million new jobs?”
    Pence: “Honestly, senator, you can roll out the numbers, but people in Scranton know different.. this economy is struggling.”

    Obama’s people would’ve prepped Kaine on how the Stimulus saved Elkhart.

    @Major Major Major Major: I would be interested to get the answers if you asked the NBC news crew– Williams, Mitchell, Todd– who negotiated the Iraq SOFA

  108. 108.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    I like the “broken promise” line.

    (Jeesus, this moderator is awful.)

  110. 110.

    chris

    Turned it off. Pence is a lying shitweasel and Kaine doesn’t know when to shut up. JustMHO

  111. 111.

    ? Martin

    Interesting. Kaine says Pence was the lead of the privatize Social Security crowd and he nodded. Don’t think he meant to nod there.

  114. 114.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    No one is going to care who “won” or lost this debate. Trump’s numbers didn’t plunge because he lost, they plunged because he showed that he was an ignorant obnoxious buffoon to a lot of people just starting to really pay attention. He could have won (according to his online polls that he loves, he did) and his numbers still would have plunged.

    These two are actually debating issues, albeit kind of obnoxiously, and everyone’s going to come out of it feeling the way they already did before watching.

  117. 117.

    Adam L Silverman

    @RaflW: The Committee for a Responsible Economy, which she referenced on the budget proposal scoring, is a Pete Peterson outfit. Also has Erskine Bowles affiliated with it.
    http://crfb.org/board-members

    So not really a responsible outfit no matter their coopting the non-partisan label.

  118. 118.

    Elizabelle

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: And Pence mentioned Fort Wayne.

    My young cousins from Fort Wayne with any professional aspirations — are working in Ohio. Indiana is a left behind state. For years upon years now.

  120. 120.

    PsiFighter37

    Think this is going to be a draw. Kaine will drop some of his likeability, but Pence comes off as a creepy asshole.

  121. 121.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    OFFS. Pence says “There they go again”??? How long has he been practicing one of Ronnie’s lines from 36 years ago?

  124. 124.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Kaine notes that Pence was a “chief cheerleader for the privatization of social security” and Trump likes the idea too.
    Pence replies: “There they go again.” Wait that sounds familiar from somewhere. Sorta.

    Matt Yglesias retweeted an old post of his from ’08, Pence is indeed a long time champion of privatization

  134. 134.

    WaterGirl

    Moderator: “Now that we haven’t covered this question, let’s move on to the next question so we can not answer that one, too.”

  135. 135.

    dr. bloor

    @Baud: That’s only a problem if your candidate is trailing by a half-dozen points. America coming to the conclusion of “Fuck’em both” and turning over to the O’s-Jays is a win for the good guys.

  136. 136.

    Mary G

    I agree this won’t change any minds. I like Kaine more and hate Pence more with every passing minute.

  137. 137.

    JMG

    Gosh, there are a lot of fretters on this thread. Half an hour in, Trump was holding his own last week. Games seldom end in the third inning.

  142. 142.

    Anne Laurie

    @danielx:

    Oddly enough, in a previous life (about a thousand years ago), I worked with Pence’s brother. He was/is a nice guy, not a wingnut, and far from an idiot. Go figure….

    “Figurehead” may be the word you’re searching for. ‘Impressive-looking white dude who can memorize a list of our latest approved talking points’ was a job position in political machines long before the modern American corporation became a symbol of opprobrium. The kinda-dumb-but-good-lucking one in the litter could always go work for Springfield’s Mayor/Gov/Senator Blowhard and his cronies.

  145. 145.

    chris

    Just to clarify, I’m with her. That said, I didn’t know much about Kaine but now I know he went to Trump Master Debater School. He needs to let Pence get his lies out where everyone can see them.

  146. 146.

    WaterGirl

    @gogol’s wife: Not sure how to answer you. Kaine has to interrupt and call out Pence on his lies, and then Pence wants to talk on and on and on, so Kaine talks over Pence and Pence talks over Kaine and then the moderator says “let’s move on to the next question”.

    Totally worthless debate so far, in my opinion.

  148. 148.

    BlueDWarrior

    @gogol’s wife: A lot of it has to do with Pence employing the ol’ Gish Gallop, and Kaine feels he can’t let all of it go because Pence talks smooth enough to where some of the mushy middle will take it at face value, so he has to try and directly rebut it in real time. The problem this poses is that you start twisting around trying to turn off the water-main of BS and it makes you look rude when you are trying talk over someone else, no matter how right you feel (or are) in doing it.

  150. 150.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    This whole “debate” sucks. Plus, my feed keeps dying and needing to be refreshed.

    (“The portions are so small.”)

  151. 151.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    Click. Enough.

    Pence has one of those voices that sound like he’s just permanently filibustering, like the ex right-wing radio show host that he is. People just sort of stop listening to the meaning, it’s like these guys learn some trick about how a monotone puts everyone to sleep.

  153. 153.

    Central Planning

    Turning it off. Disappointed the moderator lets Pence talk all over Kaine, and disappointed Kaine isn’t more forceful. :(

  155. 155.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    Good line from Kaine: “If you’re afraid to have the discussion, you’ll never solve it.”

  156. 156.

    Anne Laurie

    @Mary G:

    They might as well have sent out a tape recorder to spew Republican talking points at random.

    So, Mike Dense is doing exactly what they hired him to do!

  158. 158.

    Warren Terra

    Mike Pence apparently believes Black cops can’t be racist. I believe the data says differently.

  160. 160.

    Warren Terra

    @dmsilev:

    Do the candidates make sure that they’re not both wearing red or blue ties?

    Apparently it’s sort of traditional to feature the other party’s color? signaling compromise maybe?

  162. 162.

    patroclus

    Kaine is coming across as knowledgable and empathetic – he’s clearly prepared and is being very issue-specific.

  164. 164.

    Mary G

    Pence just said law enforcement enforcement is a force for good in this country and Hillary brings up implicit bias every time they kill a black guy. There goes the Republican minority vote, small as it is.

  165. 165.

    piratedan

    wow, moderator steps up and hits Pence between the eyes with the race issue….

    considering the format, she’s doing the best she can to let them speak and letting Kaine doing the fact checking.

  166. 166.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    “You can’t have someone at the top who demeans every group he talks about.”

  169. 169.

    PsiFighter37

    How would Mike Pence know what is going on across this country when this clown has lived in a backwater state his entire life?

  171. 171.

    Corner Stone

    @gogol’s wife: Kaine is being drowned out. It doesn’t matter what he says. He is ineffectual in making his points.
    Thank goodness this debate is meaningless.

  177. 177.

    slag

    Skipping the debate to listen to Bill Clinton on the With Her podcast (of which I’ve quickly gotten surprisingly fond). His epilogue about the moon rock was so perfectly Bill Clinton. Recommend!

  178. 178.

    Adam L Silverman

    @gogol’s wife: No, Pence won’t shut up and the moderator appears to be heavily sedated. The problem for Pence, if you’re watching, is he’s got poor facial expression control – not as bad as Trump, but bad in a side by side comparison to Kaine. So you’ve got a doormat moderator who’s deriving her questions and budget analyses from one of Pete Peterson’s funded privatize the budget shops, Kaine having to fact check Pence because he’s just spewing factually incorrect information and won’t shut up no matter what happens. So they’re just talking over each other. Pence because he can’t stop himself and Kaine because he has to interrupt to get a word in edgewise and correct Pence in real time.

  181. 181.

    Chyron HR

    @shomi:

    Kaine is letting Pence derail him. Meanwhile Pence just keeps droning on and not letting Kaine get a word in edgewise.

    Ah yes, the armchair campaign/slash debate expert. Always knows better than the candidates and their advisors.

  185. 185.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    Kaine sounds stronger when the moderator actually tells Pence to shut up for a minute. He’s making good points.

  186. 186.

    WaterGirl

    Could not take it anymore. I don’t care how soft you make your voice, when you’re spewing lie after lie after lie, you’re a lying sack of shit and the soft voice only makes it worse.

  188. 188.

    Sawgrass Stan

    Yes, Pence is a roasted asshole (surprise!), but TK really isn’t doing it for me. He’s yammering at Pence (fine), but he’s missing some obvious body blows he should be landing. Had to turn it off. Anyway, Matthew is looking scary for us, so I’m distracted.

  189. 189.

    Adam L Silverman

    The 2nd Amendment Absolutists are going to loose their heads over Kaine’s answer referencing a Holocaust survivor who survived the NAZIs, then survived the Soviets, but couldn’t survive a visiting professorship at VA Tech. The largest firearms website/blog is run by the son of a Holocaust survivor who argues its because he grew up as the son of a Holocaust survivor that there should be no restrictions on gun ownership (also he was violently beaten during two muggins before he became a gun guy).

  190. 190.

    randy khan

    On immigration, Pence is totally playing to the Trump base, with essentially no concession to anyone who’s not 100% on board. He denies the 16 million number, but not as if he really believes it.

  191. 191.

    dmsilev

    Build a wall!

    For the centerpiece of Trump’s campaign, that came and went pretty fast.

  194. 194.

    BlueDWarrior

    @Adam L Silverman: That’s about what I’m thinking on this debate so far as well, Kaine has two bad choices right now: 1) Just let Pence keep talking and try and summarize and debunk his BS in one fell swoop, using up all his time and preventing him from getting out his and HRCs points, or 2) Try and debunk Pence as he is spouting his BS, and look like an interrupting douche (regardless of how much Pence looks like a douche for lying).

    I can’t say I envy Kaine in this particular vein.

  195. 195.

    patroclus

    Kaine is a really good debater! His point-by-point policy specifics should resonate with any voter who actually wants to hear about what the ticket will actually do. He is taking Pence apart on each and every question.

  199. 199.

    gene108

    @TS:

    Pence seems to be running parts of his campaign in complete opposition to his dear leader.

    Trump has redifined reality. Reality is what Trump, and by extension Pence, says at any moment and can change the next moment.

    There is no way to contradict Trump.

  200. 200.

    Elizabelle

    If avalanche or insult were someone’s drinking words, they are tipsy by now.

    RE the deplorables response: I wish Tim could have quoted the second part of the statement, which gets glided past, but makes it clear Hillary has some sympathy and understanding of those disappointed and aggrieved at their situation.

    Just plain “she apologized” plays to the outrage. Ta Nehisi Coates had two great essays — Hillary was right about the “deplorables” business, but mainstream media won’t go there.

  202. 202.

    piratedan

    well, I have to say, all of the questions are right in the GOP wheelhouse… and man, I am not fucking surprised AT ALL.

  203. 203.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    Said it before, sayin it again: whoever this moderator is, she’s really terrible. Once in a while she tells one or other candidate to let the other guy speak, but for the most part she’s just totally ineffectual. Never heard of her before tonight, hope I never do again.

  209. 209.

    Warren Terra

    Kaine most effective when attacking Trump, even though obviously rehearsed routines.

  213. 213.

    gene108

    @Baud:

    I like his style. He’s calm, but has just a hint of happiness in his tone not to sound like a drone.

  215. 215.

    ? Martin

    I like how Pence accused Kaine of insulting people because he quoted Trump. That’s a really special form of dickhead.

  216. 216.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    Okay, this is good. Kaine on a roll now about Trump and national security.

  218. 218.

    Elie

    @patroclus:

    Kaine is good, but Pence is the snake in the Jungle Book. He is the “port in the storm” that the Trumpites can rally around. It doesn’t matter what lies he spouts… he just has to appear normal and put our some sort of bullshit in a gelatinous but smooth to digest packet. To me, Kaine wins if the whole thing is kind of neutral… but I gotta give Pence credit for his smooth delivery. He is without facts but as we know, facts don’t matter to his base and to some proportion of the swing voters…

  219. 219.

    Adam L Silverman

    @BlueDWarrior: It is not riveting political TV. Personally I’d like to see them score this thing on a ten point must system with the keys to victory being good, clean punching; good ring generalship; and effective aggression. But I’m funny that way.

  220. 220.

    Emma

    One of the marvelous thing about watching this debate through your eyes is that there are, so far, 201 comments and about half contradict the other half.

  221. 221.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    from Josh Marshall

    9:26 PM: Note that moderator chooses right-leaning group’s numbers to frame Social Security question. Sad!

    the group in question is a Pete Peterson outfit that includes both Simpson and Bowles, and far too many Democrats

  222. 222.

    patroclus

    Kaine just destroyed Pence/Trump on terrorism and nuclear war – substantively, he is winning every single point. Pence hasn’t answered ANY of Kaine’s numerous charges. This is an amazing take-down.

  224. 224.

    TriassicSands

    Kaine is a really good debater!

    I don’t like his interrupting Pence. I know it’s hard to stand or sit quietly while someone spews nonsense, but it was incredibly rude when Trump interrupted Hillary (admittedly, his interruptions were much more offensive than Kaine’s) and I don’t like it when Kaine does it. He can make his case without interrupting.

    Pence may be dumb, many people have commented on that over the past several months, but he’s a philosopher king compared with Trump.

  225. 225.

    BlueDWarrior

    @? Martin: Basically Pence’s strategy right now boils down to “What literally everyone outside of the Trump Campaign is saying about Trump is a liberal lie”. And when you start from that point, it becomes actually difficult to have a cogent discussion about anything else because you are too busy arguing whether or not the man actually said what we have him on tape saying.

    It’s brilliant debate strategy in the moment, like Romney/Obama I, because it forces the opponent to waste time trying to reassert basic facts like “Yes what [Trump] said on tape is actually what he said” when he wants to talk about the actual question at hand and how his campaign would resolve that issue.

  228. 228.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    on the foreign policy, Mt Rushmore of dictators stuff

    Pence is rolling his eyes and rocking. “Oh please,” he says. “Did you work on that one a long time, because it had a lot of creative lines,” Pence says.
    “See if you can defend any of them,” Kaine retorts.

    ETA: Wild apostrophe deleted

  231. 231.

    Jeffro

    Can I just suggest:
    1) it’s a VP debate…means even less than the actual VP pick, which seems to not mean too much most years.
    2) we’re all seeing little pieces and overreacting. Kaine’s being baited…Pence is outright lying…Kaine’s using bullet points…Pence is dodging the question…

    …who cares? I mean, I usually care, but not this go-round. I’ve seen enough to know that both sides are going to spin this one hard because it wasn’t the unbelievable pantsing that Hillary gave Donald last week. Kaine is speaking truth and getting wound up because he actually cares about this stuff; Pence is relaxed because that’s easy to do when you’re not smart.

    Keep yer powder dry and GOTV!

  233. 233.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    @Baud:

    Alas, yes. I’m surprised, and somewhat disappointed. The only other time I’ve heard him was the day he was named as HRC’s running mate, and I was very favorably impressed. Tonight, not so much.

    (That said, on substance he is miles ahead of Pence. Pence doesn’t get style points either: he is smarmy and robotic.)

  234. 234.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Baud:

    Kaine is substantively strong, but his style is weak.

    Well said. I first noticed this when he spoke at the DNC in Denver years ago.

  237. 237.

    BlueDWarrior

    @Jeffro: I do agree, this ultimately isn’t going to cost either side votes except a handful from the mushy middle coinflippers, but it is still not good when you are trying to nail Jello to the wall like Kaine is trying to do to Pence, and you end up getting it all over your clothes.

    I mean you can’t help but have that happen if you actually tried to do it without freezing it, but it still doesn’t look good in the moment.

  239. 239.

    PsiFighter37

    Still think it’s largely a draw, mainly because Pence is (generally) inoffensively stupid.

  240. 240.

    Emma

    So Kaine’s best option was to let Pence lie on and on uninterrupted and trust the drugged-out moderator to get him enough time to have his say? Huh?

  243. 243.

    Elie

    @Jeffro:

    I just hate giving them anything to cling to and if they survive this debate, it energizes the buffons. Of course, can’t avoid it totally. Kaine could use a little humor on this pompous snake oil salesman,,, but it may not matter.

  250. 250.

    Tripod

    idk – it might be that the Clinton campaign’s goals for Kaine aren’t the average progressives desire to see Pence’s head on a pike.

  251. 251.

    PsiFighter37

    I actually now think Kaine’s combative stance helped when Pence tried to turn the conversation to emails and other BS – Kaine just starts talking all over him.

  252. 252.

    gene108

    @BlueDWarrior:

    Reminds me of Bush-Gore. Bush, Jr spewed a bunch of misleading info. Gore went point by point. The moderators did not call Bush, Jr. out.

    My worry is this might play out like that. I’m partisan, so I tend to think Dems win by default.

  253. 253.

    randy khan

    There have been some really nice defensive plays by the Blue Jays, unfortunately. And the baseball game seems to be moving a lot faster than the debate.

  254. 254.

    Suzanne

    Pence repeatedly complaining about the big meanie “insults”, aka facts, makes him look like a total wuss.

    Kaine should stop interrupting. It’s DOUCHEY, even when he’s right.

  255. 255.

    MomSense

    Is Pence really scolding Clinton on Russia after the statements he and der Trump have made in support of Putin?

  256. 256.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Tripod: I’m just hoping choice comes up, Pence and Trump are vulnerable with soft R’s and indies there.

  258. 258.

    BlueDWarrior

    @Emma: That’s why I don’t necessarily fault Kaine for actively trying to debunk Pence’s BS tonight. If it is clear the moderator is just going to let everything go, you have to take whatever shots you can at telling people “No, this is wrong, and here is why it’s wrong” yourself, even if it is sub-optimal debate strategy.

    This is why even in these settings, proper moderation is important.

  261. 261.

    Elie

    @PsiFighter37:

    You don’t get it. Its a WIN because its a draw. It doesn’t matter except where it energizes the proles. But they would be bleating from the bleachers anyway. Kaine did well enough – truly fine – and its time to press on to the next. The main ring still has the same two warriors…

  262. 262.

    Keith P.

    Pence is saying we should get involved in Syria with troops to defend them? I thought Trump was against that kind of stuff.

  265. 265.

    Mnemosyne

    Wow. That whole foreign policy speech by Pence was some authentic frontier gibberish. And it’s pretty funny that Pence is claiming to be anti-Putin.

  266. 266.

    patroclus

    Kaine’s aggressive style has kept Pence on defense throughout the debate and his smarmy attacks on Clinton aren’t pushing through at all. Substantively, this is a knock-out, Kaine is winning on every single issue. I was a college debater and, if I were judging this, Kaine would win by a mile. Ya’ll seem to be judging on a far different scale than me.

  267. 267.

    Elie

    @Mnemosyne:

    Not its just a cue for him to mention it. Its a politician’s trick to answer every question only with the answer that they want to give.

  268. 268.

    Warren Terra

    FFS. “Smallest navy since 1916”. Drink everything.

    For the life of me, I’ve never been able to figure out how anyone can live with themselves when they say this line. The USA has 11 nuclear-powered CATOBAR aircraft carriers (which matters: without a catapult the carrier’s planes use half their fuel taking off). France has one, half the size. Everyone else has zero. We have 80% of the world’s naval tonnage, and our very closest allies have most of the rest. The idea that it’s important we have fewer hulls is absurd.

  274. 274.

    Elie

    @patroclus:

    Yes, you are rational and logical. I have learned to speak craze-white-people-right-wing-speak and there the world is quite different.. sadly.

  277. 277.

    dr. bloor

    @Suzanne: Each of these guys went in with a circumscribed, specific agenda, and it’s unlikely that “winning the debate” was a priority for either of them. One of Kaine’s items appears to have been “don’t let Pence peddle bullshit that gets half way around the world before we can fact check it, even if it makes you look douchey at times.”

  280. 280.

    Mary G

    Pence is getting a little rattled and continuing to push talking points instead of answering questions.

  281. 281.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Governor Mike Pence ‏@ GovPenceIN 8 Dec 2015
    Calls to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. are offensive and unconstitutional.

  283. 283.

    WaterGirl

    @Mary G: Moderator should be asking questions in the miss universe contest: “How do you feel about world peace?” With only one person being asked and no way to lose control.

    I tuned in again after SD said: “Kaine on a roll now about Trump and national security.” Fast forwarded 10 or 15 minutes to get to that point. Kaine was very successful there because Pence is so out of his league on foreign policy that he can’t even manage to spout a list of lies that he’s memorized. So when Pence lets Kaine speak, Kaine is very effective.

  285. 285.

    BlueDWarrior

    @Baud: Pence is about as temperamentally Generic a Republican you can get, he really only seems to get animated about Culture Warrior stuff, and he’s basically employing the Romney playbook. Say whatever you feel like saying, regardless to if you are right or wrong, and let the fact-checkers try and sort it out days later after everyone stopped paying attention.

    As I said earlier, it’s great strategy for the moment.

  287. 287.

    Jeffro

    @BlueDWarrior:

    it is still not good when you are trying to nail Jello to the wall like Kaine is trying to do to Pence, and you end up getting it all over your clothes.

    Only way to win is not to play that game…tell the audience, “You’re going to hear a lot of crap from Gov Pence, crap after crap after crap, in an effort to overwhelm you with BS and pretend like Donald’s a sane candidate. He’s not. Pence is going to lie to you for the next 90 minutes, and Donald’s a complete fucking loon.”

    I swear this was in Kaine’s original remarks…

  289. 289.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    They’re doing two different things. Pence is running for President and Kaine is performing the VP role- attack Trump,defend Clinton.

  290. 290.

    Adam L Silverman

    @patroclus: Pence’s facial expression discipline isn’t helping either. The question, related to your comment about being a former debater, is whether anyone but the political junkies are watching this. I think its most likely that the vast majority of viewers are the political junkies, not the average voter/citizen – they’re watching baseball or something else. If its just the political junkies, then the scoring will be vastly different – more in line with your observations.

  295. 295.

    Anne Laurie

    New post up top, for freshness (& the people reading on devices that stall after 250 comments).

  298. 298.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    For my fellow non-watchers

    Kaine hits Trump for Russian ties:

    “Donald Trump again and again has praised Vladimir Putin and it’s clear that he has business connections..” Kaine notes Trump fired former campaign operative Paul Manafort over his Russia ties.

    “If you don’t know the difference between dictatorship and leadership, then you’ve got to go back to the fifth-grade civics classes,” Kaine says.

    Then he says that the NYT tax story suggests Trump did not pay taxes on 9/11 and would not rebuild the military.

    Pence: “Donald Trump would support our troops.”

    Kaine: “He doesn’t pay taxes.”

    Pence is kind of seized up on this. He hasn’t stopped Kaine from tying non-payment of taxes to non-support of troops.

    looks pretty good to me

  299. 299.

    Jeffro

    @Elie

    :

    I just hate giving them anything to cling to and if they survive this debate, it energizes the buffons. Of course, can’t avoid it totally. Kaine could use a little humor on this pompous snake oil salesman,,, but it may not matter.

    It’s a VP debate. About as consequential as my choice of socks tomorrow. The buffoons were up until 4am last night praying Julian frickin’ Assange was gonna save their god-king and their fragile sense of self. It’s all kind of silly, except for good ol’ GOTV. Remember, the harder we work to beat Trump, the more intense, bloody, and popcorn-worthy the GOP civil war will be on Nov 9th.

  302. 302.

    amk

    @dmsilev: That’s the point of this veep debate. Keep the focus on the foibles of oppo prez candie. Kaine is not running for prez. Not directly, anyways.

  303. 303.

    Suzanne

    @dr. bloor: The problem is that Pence has this more soft-spoken style and Kaine looks kind of aggressive. It’s like interrupting Grandpa.

    Having said that, this moderator sucks. She should be calling Pence on his shit.

  305. 305.

    TriassicSands

    @Keith P.:

    Again, this moderator is terrible.

    This moderator is getting rolled.

    I have no expectation that any MSM talking head is going to be an effective moderator in a debate like this. It is very difficult for a moderator to control two debaters who won’t follow the basic rules of debate decorum.

    I’ve watched a lot of debates and it seems like virtually every moderator gets “rolled.” Thinking back over past debates — in 2004, both Jim Lehrer and Bob Schieffer did an appalling job.

    It’s not a job I’d want.

  306. 306.

    Elie

    Pence is stubborn and very smooth. Very hard to push off his own track — not as easily rattled as Trump who charges at every thing. Kaine is doing a great job but its hard to get under this guy and truly lift him for a pin (to use wrestling jargon). He oozes into every space. Thank goodness he is not at the head of the ticket. He may be dumb but with our compliant media giving assist, he would be a much more difficult adversary.

  309. 309.

    Mnemosyne

    Also, I see that “insult-driven campaign” is the buzz phrase they taught Pence for tonight. Kind of like, “That would be an ecumenical matter.”

  310. 310.

    Elizabelle

    I despise Pence. He’s a better debater than Trump — most people probably are — but he’s relentless about the Republican claptrap, and how Hillary Clinton is singularly responsible for ISIS. It’s repulsive.

    I wonder if Tweety is getting tingles about how solid (stolid) Pence is? Actually, I don’t.

    Tim’s doing his best. It’s hard to prevail over someone who lies, lies, lies with such calm demeanor.

    Further, hitting back at Trump and the GOP and their lies — all Pence can do is whine about insults.

    I am sad that Hillary got such barnyard animals (Napoleon and a dimmer pig from Animal Farm) for opponents. It’s demeaning.

  313. 313.

    Warren Terra

    Kaine is doing a terrible job of making policy arguments, even though the facts are on his side. He’s mostly effective about Trump, though. Hopefully that’s what matters.

  314. 314.

    Jeffro

    Well, messed up that block quote at #300. Top quote was Elie’s, bottom quote was mine. Yeesh.

  315. 315.

    Helen

    I thought the best part of this debate would be Trump’s tweets. But he’s not tweeting. He’s re-tweeting others. He’s such a fucking lightweight that he can’t even pay attention for 5 minutes and form a coherent thought or opinion.

  316. 316.

    Renie

    is it possible pence lies just as much as trump. it’s unbelievable. the moderator needs to control this better

  319. 319.

    TriassicSands

    @Mnemosyne:

    Well, calling HRC “crooked Hillary” is certainly not insult-driven. Listening to Trump (and now Pence) whine about insults is truly mind boggling. Trump can’t string five words together without throwing in an insult, but his feelings were hurt (first debate) when Hillary was mean to him. He’s such a sensitive little flower.

  322. 322.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Kay:

    they know Trump isn’t Presidential so Pence is literally a stand-in, almost usurping that role.

    IIRC that’s exactly what they promised Kasich when they talked to him about the VP gig.

  323. 323.

    Bobby Thomson

    Not watching this, but I’m surprised how many people have forgotten that Biden repeatedly interrupted Ryan in 2012. At least make up your minds – is Kaine pushy or a pushover?

    This will probably end any Republican stampede, but Trump still has to show up two more times. I actually think the town hall won’t be as disastrous for him because he’ll have other stupid people to hide behind, as in the Republican debates. And then he gets Chris Wallace – I’m not expecting Wallace to be helpful, but if he does nothing but insist that Trump answer his questions it’s all good. Trump can’t change who he is and has a talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

  324. 324.

    Elie

    Kaine is a little uptight and needs to relax more. Pence is under HIS skin a little. Sure he has the facts on his side, but this is not about facts. Its about — occupying your space and domination. As I said, Kaine is trying to lift Pence for the pin and its tough. Facts only matter in our world. Their world is how to piss on the hydrant higher than the next dog. Lies are just part of their package so coming equipped to rebut lies is a waste of time. You have to find the psychological buttons to push to get the opponent off their track…

    I am actually surprised that Pence hasn’t brought up Bill Clinton’s latest foot in mouth episode… (sheesh)

  325. 325.

    Mnemosyne

    @TriassicSands:

    But, see, it’s true that she’s crooked, so it’s not an insult to say that she is. But it’s not true that Donald Trump has repeatedly praised Putin, so it’s mean and insulting to say so.

    Hang on, let me go hit myself in the head with a hammer a few more times so I can really get the Pence “logic” down.

  326. 326.

    OGLiberal

    @hovercraft: It was Michael who said that? I thought it was Ron so I shrugged but Michael is kind of a huge wing nut. He also said Dutch wouldn’t have supported Trump. Didn’t say he’d vote for Hillary but no Trump.

  328. 328.

    Miss Bianca

    @schrodinger’s cat: Why is it again that we can’t have moderators from the League of Women Voters? *They* really know how to handle a debate (I’d say “we”, but it’s been a few years since I was a dues-paying member of the LWV).

  329. 329.

    Kay

    @FlipYrWhig:

    It must be tough for Kaine because Pence is basically doing a generic conservative v liberal debate and pretending Donald Trump doesn’t exist. Kaine is doing what the VP does.

    I would not be surprised if Trump is pissed. It’s almost an end run around Trump, bizarrely enough.

  331. 331.

    Mnemosyne

    @Elie:

    That whole dominance thing is a white guy thing. Hillary and Obama are both immune to it, but Kaine is not, so it’s a little easier for Pence to get under his skin.

  334. 334.

    Elie

    @Mnemosyne:

    Forget about his FACTS… you and I and everyone know its not about FACTS. Its about turning that energy he is putting out against him. Biden does it really well. Its soft rather than coercive power. Biden just sometimes laughs as he looks at his opponent and then changes the response to what he wants. Kaine is a great debater and in full command of his facts, but he is not a great emoter — he doesn’t hook with empathy the same way. BTW he is doing better as he speaks about his religion but he has to slow it down and give more of a sense of listening. (In only my opinion)

  335. 335.

    Suzanne

    I normally don’t have any alcohol during the work week, but this debate drove me to the bottle.

    He just said “insult-driven campaign” again. FFS. I hate this clown.

  338. 338.

    Mnemosyne

    I like this bit from the Guardian liveblog:

    Pence is shaking his head and frowning. Pence seems really offended by Kaine saying all this stuff with a smile.

  339. 339.

    gene108

    @Renie:

    The “beauty” of Pence’s lies is he is plowing into the well sown ground of Hillary “scandals” like emails and the Clinton Foundation. He’s not going into crazy territory that has not been already covered.

  340. 340.

    randy khan

    @Steve in the ATL:

    I’m not watching the Jays, I’m watching the Baltimore Orioles, owned by a guy who, despite his terrible flaws as a baseball owner, is a staunch Democrat and union supporter. (He actually refused to consider hiring replacement players during the 1990s MLB lockout.)

  342. 342.

    Mnemosyne

    @Elie:

    With Biden, it’s partly an age thing. It was easy for him to be the elder statesman with both Palin and Ryan. IIRC, Kaine is younger than Pence, so he can’t use that same advantage.

    Though I would love it if Kaine could work “malarkey” into one of his answers.

  344. 344.

    Elie

    Kaine should drop his voice and tone — and he seems to be — pull the energy out of Pence and resonate with his real target — the audience. In formal debates, you are focused on your opponent. In politics, its your audience — the people. The opponent is only a foil you use to get that connection.

  346. 346.

    gene108

    Why is so much time spent on abortion? Is there anyone in the country undecided on this issue?

  348. 348.

    Elie

    @Mnemosyne:

    Naw…Biden was always like that but I hear what you are saying. Soft power was and is used by both Obama and Bill Clinton (when at their best)….

  352. 352.

    Mnemosyne

    Oh, and for the non-Catholics in the audience? The Gospel of Matthew is the bestest Gospel of all. That’s the Jesuit education speaking straight through Kaine.

  353. 353.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    I couldn’t handle it and went to baseball full-time almost an hour ago. Now I’m fighting a very slight urge to switch to MSNBC to see how awful Tweety and the crew will be.

    Agree with the consensus here: Pence is a lying liar; Kane wasn’t helped by having to interrupt constantly.

  354. 354.

    Miss Bianca

    @Adam L Silverman: Ah! Well, I was asking somewhat rhetorically, but honestly, I either didn’t know or had forgotten a lot of the machinations involved in the debate format. Thanks for the illumination, Adam!

  355. 355.

    Suzanne

    UGHHHHHH. I never want to hear the phrase “partial-birth abortion” ever again. If we want to have a discussion about dilation and extraction, can we note that it is essentially only done on women who are dying?

  356. 356.

    hueyplong

    He’s interrupting too much/He’s getting run over.

    Pretty sure two weeks from now no one will be saying that Kaine hurt the chances for victory.

  359. 359.

    TriassicSands

    @Mnemosyne:

    Careful, you’re already doing a better job of defending Trump than Pence did. When Trump tires of Kellyanne Conway there may be an opening for you.

  360. 360.

    TriassicSands

    I was critical of Kaine’s frequent interruptions, but I thought he did well in talking about abortion and religion (I’m a religious absolutist — I want none of it in politics.)

    Unfortunately, the nature of the abortion issue is such that nothing a pro-choice candidate can say will ever win approval from single-issue abortion voters. The nature of most religion (in the US) is based on a supreme, all-knowing, all powerful being. By its very nature it is incompatible with democratic government and a free and open society. Wise people understand that it is important to keep religion and government separate. Right wing Christians want to infuse government with their own beliefs and force other people to adhere to them.

  361. 361.

    John M. Burt

    @patroclus: Plus, he doesn’t know where Clark Kent grew up.
    I remember the great relish I took in the fall of 2000, telling people, “Well, it’s one of those shows about a small town where weird things keep happening. Only what nobody knows is, the weirdest thing in Smallville is a Freshman at the local high school . . . named Clark Kent.”
    Whole lot of people who didn’t know the name “Smallville” knew the name Clark Kent, so I got a satisfying series of gasps of astonishment.
    @NotMax, reporters quoted John Nance Garner as saying the job of Vice President wasn’t worth “a bucket of warm spit”, but most people reading it understood what he had really said.

  362. 362.

    Applejinx

    @Elie: Right now I’m picturing the MSM unilaterally deciding that Pence should be the President and Trump the veep.

    Trump would fire him before dawn the next day. I have to wonder, to what extent will ‘good performances’ from Pence get him whacked by Trump, fired.

    This is not a normal election, at all.

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