That’s my only explanation for Trump. All the white males my age and older are having a very public emotional breakdown and decided to vote for the crazy person.
Oh yeah. I put forward peak wingnut theory eight years ago this week. Hehe. Nailed that!
Skippy-san
This election is about vengeance for 2008. Trump morons believe that the US should only be a one party state. They ignore the obvious markers that it will hurt them in the long run because all they care about is getting even.
MikeTheZ
CNN just reported their poll on who has the better temperament. Trump came in at 27%. Of course.
Trentrunner
I predict Mike Pence will leave the ticket in the next 72 hours.
Mike J
@Trentrunner: Cancelled a fundraiser in NJ tomorrow.
Ruckus
John
Hey! Not all the white males older than you. I’m all three of those things and I’m not enjoying the show particularly but it isn’t that I have a problem with Clinton, it’s all those asshole republicans. I do understand your point that a shit tonne of us have gone off the deep end though.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Been watching the MSNBC coverage off and on, and it appears like the Willey-Jones press conference has gone down the memory hole. Anyone seen it mentioned?
Bailey
He is a crazy person. There is no excuse in voting for him.
But it would be nice if we had a Dem party that was a little more prepared and proactive when dealing with the real economic anxiety in this country. (Real or imagined.)
NotMax
Ahem. Not so, grasshopper.
(Speaking for efgoldman, raven and a multitude of others as well.)
Lizzy L
@Trentrunner: Chris Christie, stand up! Now’s your time!
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner: @Mike J: I don’t think Trump had a bad enough night. The rumors are he would leave if it was bad enough, but I don’t know that it was.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bailey: shut the fuck up
a
I am several years older than you. I have never voted for a Republican.
Adam L Silverman
@Trentrunner: It depends what God tells him to do. Interestingly enough the voice that God uses to speak to him inside his head sounds just like Mike Pence and tells him to do exactly what he wanted to do before he asked for God to tell him what to do.
Trentrunner
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Tweety just mentioned it; leading his 10pm show coverage.
Bailey
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Stay classy.
Meanwhile, I will pretend that everything is hunky dory for everyone and the Dem response is perfectly calibrated for future electoral success.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It was mentioned a couple of times.
Trentrunner
@Adam L Silverman: LOL.
cain
The people I was watching with, we acme up with a theory, every time he does that weird snorting intake of breath, he’s about to lie. It’s like a tell or something. We should check to see if that is actually true!
NJ Maine Coon Slave
@Lizzy L: Give him a minute…
Betty Cracker
Thank FSM all of us white folks aren’t nuts, or Trump would win with 65%-plus of the vote instead of losing bigly! ?
a
@a: Fucking moderation? Really?
Major Major Major Major
ugh one of my friends just posted some ‘the real loser was the american people blah blah’ crap on FB. He’s a bit of a bothsideser, solid Dem but he seems to enjoy proving his totebagging bona fides from time to time.
ETA: @a: are you new? that’ll do it.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
Almost goes without saying that it is a male voice.
Robin G.
I was genuinely, viscerally sickened at the sight of HRC, one of the most accomplished women in the world, sitting there while that man admonished her and shouted at her and called her names. The fact that his voice is considered equal to hers mortifies me. There was a point where I started crying with second hand frustration and humiliation. I hate this election.
bobbo
I’ve been doing phone banking for Hillary and every time I get a Male over 45 I start getting anxious that I’ll have to talk to a “Lock Her Up” Trumpkin.
Raven Onthill
@a: I think the moderators ought to rehearse, for dealing with Trump.
A mic cutoff would help too!
hovercraft
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
They made a reference to it in their initial assesment of the debate, saying that if you took away the last 72 hours and the presser, then he did well tonight. So if those things hadn’t happened he’d be in good shape.
Adam L Silverman
@Trentrunner: The same is also true for Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin (apparently omnipotent beings cannot complete a full sentence) and Franklin Graham and millions of others.
Keith P.
@Mike J: That’s only because Trump said he’s self-funding. Pence went, “Oh, cool, then we don’t need fundraisers!”
NJ Maine Coon Slave
@Bailey:
I hate to think people have ulterior motives for whatever reason, but WTH stopped you from posting after the first sentence? You are undermining yourself and coming across as, frankly, a plant. But that is a step up from the run of the mill troll so hopefully you are not too offended. x
RaflW
Best thing about tonight’s debate? (And I haven’t been to the thread below, so I may be rather unoriginal in this thought).
Paul Ryan’s balls are in an ever-tightening vice. He’s pinned and the pain will become indescribable. And he deserves it.
Adam L Silverman
@a: you’re free
amk
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
As Anne Lamott wisely wrote, You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that He hates all the same people you do.
Mark B
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That was for the suckers in his base. 80% of America doesn’t give a shit where Bill Clinton’s dick has been.
jl
Thanks John, I was wondering if I could relate my run in with a Trumper today. In San Francisco. Yes there are some.
(Trigger warning: following text contains fat old white drunk man shaming)
So this belligerent fat older drunk guy with his wife or girl friend were in line in front of me at a small grocery. And he is making a fuss, running the counter guy all around looking for a certain kind of little cigar, and then he wanted to cage some free ice cubes since he claimed the beer from the fridge was too warm and he needed to cool it. Then while the counter guy is looking around, this drunk guy pockets a bag of sunflower seeds and a chocolate ball. And I see out of the corner of my eye, but want no involvement with this goof, but he winks at me.
So, he is staggering around outside the store and he sees me come out and he looks at me and says ‘See, I know how to work the system!. Just like my man Trump!’ So I walk real quickly away while he asks me what I think of Trump (as I said in comments recently, for some reason I am often mistaken for a conservative). And I walk quicker worrying this drunk is going to follow me. But then he gets in a fight with his woman about why she won’t let him drive.
And I had to talk with Trump supporters while cold call phone banking the other day. Yikes. What a crew of weirdos.
RaflW
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Here’s the flaw in Trump openly, endlessly dissing the press. He basically shut reporters out at his whim in that Facebook event. Reporters and news outlets hate that.
They have plenty of Trump content to flog, much of which is less flattering to him. They won’t really bite too much on that (I hope).
Run, Lillian!
“When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression”. That is how I explain Trump and his white male reactionary fans. They are pissed at the status they see slipping away, not ever understanding that their status wasn’t earned, but instead came at the expense of other people.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: My theory is that when everyone hears “God” speaking to them “God” sounds just like them. Its never Orson Welles or Charlton Heston or Morgan Freeman. So Sarah Palin hears “God” who sounds just like Sarah Palin (which explains why the tenth commandment is a word salady run on that actually includes three or four different commandments all mashed together depending on how you’re separating the phrases – and yes, the original Hebrew is that confused too).
Bailey
@NJ Maine Coon Slave:
WTH stopped me from posting after the first sentence? Or do you mean why did I continue to post past the first sentence? To answer that, I posted because our Dem party has floated quite far to the right on economic issues. We are going to win this election, but aren’t necessarily set up for future success. Despite a recovery from great financial crisis and a gain of (I believe) 15 million jobs total under Obama, there is still a lot of anxiety out there and underemployment and heavy, heavy debt. Not having good policies to address this allows people like Trump to get a foothold. MUCH of his support comes from racists and misogynists. But not all of it. So not ALL white men are crazy or have lost their mind. But they don’t feel like there’s a better offer.
NotMax
@Raven Onthill
An air horn would do it.
omnes omnibis
@Major Major Major Major: I am not new. FYWP did weirdness. I am still me.
Ruckus
@NJ Maine Coon Slave:
Concern troll is concerned. Don’t bother trying to reason with it, the gene for reason was left out when this one was made.
sukabi
@Trentrunner: of course Tweety mentioned it, he loooooves rolling around in dirt.
Mnemosyne
Though I hate to credit a troll, I’m wondering if shomi had a point in the thread below and the next revelation will be Trump’s financial ties to Russia, which Hillary got him to specifically deny tonight.
Mark B
@Major Major Major Major: He got away with menacing, stalking, and interrupting quite a bit. The moderators really let him get away with a lot, although he whined constantly about how badly he was being treated.
Raven Onthill
@NotMax: LOL, er, kraw kraw kraw.
sukabi
@Raven Onthill: shock collar and cattle prod.
OzarkHillbilly
@bobbo: Hanging up is always an option.
amk
stop feeding the fucking troll.
? Martin
I said that the tape and the response would lower the bar that might eventually bring the sexual assault lawsuit against Trump into the overall campaign narrative.
Joy Reid just brought up Jill Harth for the first time that I’ve seen outside of a few under the fold newspaper articles. We’ll see if that continues.
Major Major Major Major
@jl: Yikes. Which neighborhood?
Barbara
@Mike J: Well, it could be that all the attendees canceled first.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
As you may have learned in Catholic school, the Catholic and Protestant versions of the Ten Commandments are slightly different, so not even every Christian sect agrees.
Whenever you have Xtianist idiots insisting on publicly posting the Ten Commandments, I always wish some Catholic in good standing would sue on the basis that they posted the wrong version. Hasn’t happened yet, sadly.
Redshift
@bobbo: I understand, but don’t be. The Dems’ superior data analysis means their targeting is really good these days. They’re not having you call random white males.
NJ Maine Coon Slave
@Run, Lillian!:
The nail has been hit firmly on the head.
jl
@Major Major Major Major: I was meeting friends out by the beach near the zoo. Beautiful sunny day.
It was near the zoo. Don’t worry. Meet all kinds down there. .
Ruckus
@Mark B:
In Trump’s mind he did get mistreated. To him everyone else on the planet should be bowing down to him and kissing his gold plated shit.
amk
The real question is how much did gopee lose tonight. Especially, the ‘unendorsers’ of yesterday.
Jean
@Robin G.: I share your frustration. His threat to put in her prison and his continual pacing toward her and looming over her were simply outrageous. I hoped the moderators would have asked him to step away. It was physical intimidation. That he promised to imprison his political opponent, yes, is fascist, but it was also clear evidence that he likes to dominate–threaten– his opponents both verbally and physically. I’ve never seen a debate where that behavior was permitted. He should have been called on it the first time.
Aleta
@Mark B:
It was telling that he spent his time lying that he didn’t get enough time, rather than use it to make a point on topic.
RaflW
@Mnemosyne: Hillary did seem very keen to talk about Russia tonight. Her first mention (can’t recall the dets now in the post-deluge mode I’m in now), seemed a bit forced, but I was like “go for it, I know you have a plan on this, Hilz.”
Frankly, if the country hadn’t been driven to the brink by Trump’s sex-assault video, the news on Friday that the US Gov’t had confirmed Russian hacking would have made some waves.
And in the olden days, winger FPers would have gone nuts on Obama for having let the Russians hack us for however long they did before getting booted off. But winger FPers are fully compromised by their Trump-blindness so didn’t even go for this, or if they did, so half-heartedly that we all (thankfully!) failed to notice.
slag
@Run, Lillian!:
I saw this point made in reference to Trump’s persistent whining about speaking time even though he got over a minute more than Hillary.
The most enlightened white dudes I know are utterly nonplussed by Trump’s extreme incompetence while every woman and minority I know shrugs and sighs. One white guy I know said, “Yeah, but I thought he had to have at least SOME amount of competence to get where he is.” It is to laugh.
Feathers
Generation Lead. It truly does seem to be the best explanation.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@RaflW: I think this guy is thinking along the same lines you are, me to, fwiw
and to my great surprise, I agree with this hump for once
hovercraft
Tweety doesn’t want to talk about policy, he wanted to get back to talking about their personal qualities. Your useless fucking media.
sigaba
@Trentrunner: Who’s “Tweety” again? I don’t have cable.
Major Major Major Major
@jl: Man, that zoo’s depressing. All those old animals in the old enclosures, and they can’t modernize the enclosures because the animals will get confused and die.
Note: I have not been to the SF zoo in ten years.
Remember when all the penguins got syphilis?
rk
It really doesn’t matter what Trump did or did not do in the debate. There are 30 days till the election and that means there are 30 different scandals waiting in the wings. If I remember last week it was: Alicia Machado, taxes, cuba embargo, dissing PTSD veterans, mocking Hillary’s Pneumonia, saying the terminally ill should hang on till election day to vote for him, and last but not least the last 48 hrs. I’m sure there are more, but who can even keep up. I’m sure he thinks he has won the debate, and so he’ll be even stupider and more vicious. The debate will be long forgotten by Tuesday.
Fair Economist
@cain:
I was thinking something like that too, but it’s not quite that simple. I got the impression it was something more like when he’s putting somebody down with bullshit. Deserves a close perusal.
sigaba
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Douthat, thet TACers and Reformacons know they’re completely screwed. The trick is they’ve come to the conclusion that the GOP has be “liberal” ever since Bush and that Trump is a liberals liberal.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: Maybe you should stop wearing your Make America Great Again ball cap when you go out?//
Ruckus
@slag:
He is a bigger bullshitter than his opposition, which is how he got past the primary. He’s hoping that given this is his only skill, it will carry him over the finish line first. Well that and he doesn’t understand that he is bullshitting.
amk
@rk:
already happening in his twitter feed.
NJ Maine Coon Slave
@Bailey:
THIS is what I was looking for and hoping to hear from you.
Yes our party is far from perfect, and in my opinion far to the right for my comfort.
You make valid points and I wish I could provide an answer, but the crushing debt and zero wage growth do create a tremendous amount of anxiety. I am among the 50 year old unemployables apparently.
Better than a deplorable I guess :)
scav
@Mark B: Then again, how will that play to the audience? It resonates all too much with all too many women. If the moderators had reined him in, he and mba howler monkeys would call unfair feminine opression even louder and with visuals. This way it plays more fully petty, mean, delusional and it doesn’t seem to have put her off her game. She good under pressure.
sukabi
@sigaba: Chris Matthews, loud mouthed, talking block head.
Adam L Silverman
@? Martin: She’s been all over the Harth story for the past two weekends on her own show.
hellslittlestangel
@Raven Onthill: I thought Martha Raddatz handled him pretty well. I wonder if she started out as a middle-school teacher.
shortribs
I just want one audience member during a debate to yell out, in response to a Trump comment (any will do), “You lie!” just to see the media call that person out for being uncivil.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@sigaba: Chris Matthews
@amk: and he’s gonna have some help getting stupider
danielx
Well, not all, exactly.
But emotional breakdown is not a bad way to describe it. The last eight years have been one long scream of outrage and frustration for wingnuts, what with the Kenyan imposter occupying the Oval Office and not having the decency to have his presidency collapse and to commit suicide, not necessarily in that order. And now, now they are expected to put up with a woman, a (sorta) liberal woman, and a (sorta) liberal woman named Clinton, possibly in the Oval Office?
Those folks will never ever change their views, and that quote in a previous thread about inspiring Trump voters to be better than Trump, or some such, is nothing but horseshit of an exquisite quality. They are never going to accept HRC as a legitimate president no matter the margin of victory if she wins. Which is nothing especially new, most particularly since the Rs haven’t regarded any Dem president since Jimmy Carter as legitimately elected.
Amir Khalid
@Trentrunner:
He can abandon ship if he wants, but it’s way too late to take his name off the crew manifest
NJ Maine Coon Slave
@Ruckus: I think I’ve given my last shot at that just now. They seem so harmless though.
Bailey
@NJ Maine Coon Slave:
Okay, I’m glad we’re speaking the same language.
For the record, this is what I have been consistently saying. Ignoring that undercurrent out there is to our peril. It may be fun to point and laugh at the GOP today, but the Dem structure won’t stand either without a significant reckoning.
Cameron Ashby
This election is fundamentally about empirically determining the validity of the peak wingnut hypothesis.
Trump is either peak wingnut, or he’s the wingularity. The difference is whether the wingnut system will decompensate now that it’s achieves critical mass, or continue on its exponential journey to a place utterly beyond reason. It’s a bit like physicists wondering whether the hydrogen bomb would merely shatter, melt, and irradiate everything within miles, or rip open the fabric of space-time and halt the universe.
The question with Trump is whether he’ll nuke the Republican party (peak wingnut), or reduce western democracy to quantum soup (wingularity).
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: I always ask people that want to post the 10 Commandments in various places the following questions: 1) The Jewish, Catholic, or Protestant versions? 2) The version from Exodus or the version from Deuteronomy? 3) The actual 10 Commandments that run about 4 pages in the actual original Hebrew text or the bumper sticker version?
hovercraft
@Aleta:
If you’re whining you’re losing. And when the did the time of posetion he had over a minute longer than her.
James E Powell
@sukabi:
I always wonder if he knows that he is known all over the internet as Tweety and, if so, what he thinks of that name.
zach
Calling the opponent the devil would be a big story in any other debate at any level of politics… I haven’t even seen it come up in any post-debate reaction today.
sigaba
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: This whole Bimbo Eruption Redux It’s almost like a performance piece satirizing a political attack. Again I feel like it’s like set dressing from a Paul Verhoeven movie.
piratedan
well, after perusing the threads and digesting what I saw… a couple of other things…
1) Trump mentioned he has no financial ties in Russia and indicated that while its nice that Putin says nice things about him, he has no idea on how they run things… fast forward about 20 minutes and then we get Trump talking about how the Russian foreign policy is stepping into the vacuum we created when we left Iraq, thereby threatening Iran and allowing Russia, ISIS and Iran to line up against us. Sorry, saying don’t know about them and then inserting them into a detailed foreign policy discussion means he’s lying about something, but how the fuck do you call him on it.
2) The taxes – fine this year is being audited, how about last year, the year before that? How about some foundation financial records?
3) clean coal – really? clean fucking coal?
4) race – yeah, Donald Trump, the healer for race relations
5) muslims/immigration – what a fucking horror show… if he’s elected, you get Joe fucking Arpaio… NATIONALLY. ye gawds.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@James E Powell: I suspect Tweety googles himself often
Adam L Silverman
@sigaba: Chris Matthews.
OT: just replied to your email.
RaflW
@Ruckus: He doesn’t understand that he is bullshitting.
And holy crap, is he a bullshitter. He was acting like Hillary could have changed federal tax code by herself as a senator. I actually can’t decide if he is so uninformed/uninterested in how legislating works that he might just not know the process.
But terminal bullshitters have no idea what they don’t know.
There were a couple times when the moderators seemed s tad incredulous.
Mods: No, really, so what is your plan, Mr. Trump?
T: Argle barlge word salad ISIS Clinton!
M: ?!?!?
slag
@Cameron Ashby: I find this analogy oddly comforting. This must be what contemplating the Rapture feels like to fundamentalists.
Adam L Silverman
@rk: One of the Apprentice producers (not Bennett) has tweeted out that there’s unaired video of him referring to African Americans as ni**ers. If that is accurate and those come out his base supporters will love it, but he’ll be done.
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
@sigaba:
Chris Matthews, MSNBC
TS
@Bailey:
No the g.d. republicans in congress have made sure that the dems cannot get their legislation into law. Nothing to do with the dems other than not turning up to vote at mid terms. They couldn’t bother to give President Obama more than 2 years of a majority House.
Peale
@piratedan: yep. On five, he’s gone beyond stopping Syrian refugees from coming. He’s going to deport those that are already here. And those refugees are here legally. I’m pretty certain that those aren’t the only legal immigrants that will be added to the list.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: I think you mean done-r. (Not to be confused with Döner, a delicious sandwich.)
Somebody mentioned that anybody leaking Apprentice video would be subject to a $5m fine, and Mark Cuban offered to pay it.
NJ Maine Coon Slave
@Bailey: Believe it or not I agree – We are at a time where we as a a nation should have moved past the GOP/Dem divide. It is antiquated and creates gridlock.
Regarding the undercurrent we ignore it at our own peril. There are causes to promote and defend against republican / trumpist attacks.
Our choice is simple.
sigaba
I could live the rest of my life a happy man if I never saw the phrase “traded barbs” again.
Do you know what “trade barbs” means? It means the Democrat accused the Republican of unsustainable tax policy, and the Republican threatened to shoot the Democrat.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Major Major Major Major:
Had Trump visited in the months preceding that?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Major Major Major Major: interesting, because real billionaire Cuban is on one of Burnett’s (I think) less successful reality shows, the Shark tank one.
sigaba
@Major Major Major Major: Isn’t offering to pay someone’s civil judgements in order to induce them to break a contract tortious interference? (I have heard Cuban had expressly denied he would pay.)
Bailey
@TS:
So guess what? When mid-term voters aren’t given a reason to turn out, they don’t. If they don’t feel like the party is speaking to them, they don’t turn out. So you can blame the voters or you can blame the policies but the fact is many people feel their economic interests aren’t being spoken to or they feel that the starting point of negotiations is already farther to the right then they’d like, so why bother? Many can’t tell the difference between a republican and a democrat.
BR
@Major Major Major Major:
I thought Cuban actually said that it’s up to the producer (who is a Trump supporter and is going to go after any leakers). But even if it isn’t that tape, there seems to be lots of buzz about additional Trump tapes that are about to go public.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Cuban didn’t offer to pay for it, just that if someone wants to leak it they should. The guy from Media Matters did offer to pay – David Brock. $5 million to cover potential legal fees if necessary.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Than they’re as fucking stupid as you are. Now shut the fuck up.
Major Major Major Major
@sigaba: Is it a civil judgment if there’s no lawsuit? You’re just violating a contract and pay without any court action?
Also, I’m not a lawyer, how would I know?
ETA: @Adam L Silverman: Brock, that’s right.
jl
@Adam L Silverman:
” Maybe you should stop wearing your Make America Great Again ball cap when you go out?// ”
It’s the Muy Thai class and weight training. I just exude alpha male, I guess.
And also, probably because I go apeshit and get in peoples’ faces and throw shit if I think they look at me funny, or someone calls me a pu$$y, or a ‘cuck’ or makes what ai interpret to be less than properly resepctful remark, whatever. I guess I just have to watch that dominant, strong ‘alpha’ make Trumpist behavior that I exude. (note; this is snark)
NJ Maine Coon Slave
@sigaba:
That actually makes sense! Trump is supporting the arts!
Who the hell am I kidding?
hovercraft
@piratedan:
He’s explained this, the tax records are all related to each other, so as long as he’s being audited he can’t release any of them.
You would think a journalist would call bullshit and say that even if he could claim that, he could at least release the ones that are more than 7 years old since those are now closed.
Ruckus
@RaflW:
A side note to But terminal bullshitters have no idea what they don’t know. That’s because terminal bullshitters usually are bullshitting because they are dumb. They’ve managed to bullshit their way for so long that they think they are smarter than everyone else. Really what it is is that they have long ago learned to believe their own bullshit. That’s what makes them terminal, there is no way out for them. Donnie is maybe just the most public example of the type.
Bailey
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
You’re still classy as always.
And certainly writing off a giant portion of the Dem electorate as “stupid” is an excellent strategy going forward.
sigaba
@Major Major Major Major: Well like with CBS and Jeffrey Wigand — CBS believed they were going to get sued if they had induced Wigand to break his NDA with Brown & Williamson.
JR in WV
No, no Cole!
I’m older than you, whiter than Wonder Bread, and from a little coal town in southern WV, and I voted for Obama in two primaries and both elections, and am working for and contributing to Hillary in this election.
Sol it isn’t all of us. In fact I have several friends even older than me who sujpport Hillary! Hang in there – I think we got this!!
jl
@Major Major Major Major: SF zoo is not the best in the world. If were up to me, I’d close most of it, or change it so it exhibited animals that could thrive in that climate. So, a coyote, raccoon, skunk, and gopher, small reptile and beach insect zoo, But I dunno about the audience for that.
I was down there to walk with some friends up and down the beach. No zoo for me today.
jk
Hillary is still pitching a shutout
Daily newspaper endorsements
Hillary Clinton 78
Gary Johnson 6
Donald Trump ZERO
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
I think there’s a typo in that sentence, you meant to type he is done.
Ruckus
@hovercraft:
Besides everything else, the IRS has specifically stated that there is nothing to stop him or anyone else from releasing their tax returns, being audited or not. The IRS can not make them public but anyone of us, including Donnie can make their own public.
sigaba
By the way.
#NotAllWhitePeople
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Adam L Silverman: Why do you hate America?
Cameron Ashby
@slag: Perhaps it only seems safer in retrospect, but I’m a little more comfortable with setting off Ivy Mike than with setting off Trump and the Alt-Right.
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl:
(Makes note to avoid jl.)
I just hike alot and have calves the size…
hovercraft
@jk:
He has two in his pocket ready to whip out at the right moment. The NY POST and The Observer (owned by his SIL).
amk
Jim, Foolish Literalist
hmmm….. Robert Costa is teasing a “big story” on twitter
ETA: Meh. Trump’s ‘victim squad’ was going to confront Clinton.
And I was gonna be taller and more handsome
sigaba
@amk: JohnnyCab speaks. Fictional Election from a Verhoeven movie: +1.
JR in WV
@shortribs:
Oh, that’s sweet! Thanks for the Lolz.
hovercraft
Trump is getting ready to scrap Vegas debate, because they wanted to have his 4 women walk up to Clinton and accuse him to his face of rape. Per Costa,
Mart
@Adam L Silverman: I am a heathen, but since the ten commandments, is it early enough to include Muslim theocracy?
danielx
@Cameron Ashby:
Hey, if Trump is elected you’ll probably get both.
JR in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
OK, now I want a link to the Hebrew multi-page version, but in English, as I don’t have any Hebrew skills. Please? It sounds interesting from a folklore POV. the things you learn on the Intarwebtubes.
Mnemosyne
@NJ Maine Coon Slave:
Here’s the problem with that:
For about 250 years, America had both a racial caste system and an economic class system. White people at the bottom of the economic class system were assured that it was okay, because in compensation, they got to be at the top of the racial caste system.
Now the days are gone when the poorest, most broken-down white sharecropper could demand that a college-educated black dentist defer to him, but that sharecropper’s family is still at the bottom of the economic class system, and they’re pissed that they lost their social status in the caste system without gaining anything in the economic system.
Republicans have been lying to them for 30+ years and saying that if we just re-institute the racial caste system, all of their economic problems will be solved, and they believe it. Democrats come up wth solutions that will help them economically (like PPACA), but those solutions are rejected because they don’t re-institute the caste system.
Frankly, the most virulent Trumpsters I’ve seen are not poor whites, but middle-class ones who feel like they should be rich, but someone (the government, The Blacks, illegals, etc) is holding them back. Those are the people most susceptible to the Trump message of white supremacy, not poor whites. He tells them that they’re not on top of the economic class system because the caste system has been dismantled, and all their problems will be solved with the caste system.
Economic proposals will not win those people over, because at base, they’re worried about their loss of unearned social status. Like PPACA and consumer reforms, Democrats are going to have to pass legislation that will help them economically over their objections to those very reforms because these two class systems are so entangled in their minds.
Trentrunner
Welp, this is disgusting (WaPo):
jl
@BillinGlendaleCA: Actually, I’ve done some ‘light’ sparring (well, they called it ‘light’) with the instructors. I think I got a ribbed cracked and was in pain for more than a month the first time. When the instructor nailed me in the face or head, he would just tap, but when he landed a something below the neck, I felt like I was like getting hit with a baseball bat or something.
Once, I sensed this blur of glove come in and tap my nose three or four times. And I heard the instructor say “Man, in a real fight, I just wrecked your face. You’re out cold now, jl ha ha!’
So, after those experiences, my rule if it looks like I might get in a fight, I don’t care what the other person looks like, my rule number 1 is run like hell, and rule number 2 is if the guy is getting close, run more like hell.
Edit: I am tall and have a huge reach, but the only thing I don’t utterly stink at is in close fighting. I have to grapple and use elbows and knees and close-in kicks. Otherwise, I am one clumsy wrecked face, dead meat, knocked out cold klutz.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@hovercraft: a bit more to it than I thought, but still, overall, I don’t think he’ll skip it– he thinks he scores points by mentioning Sidney Blumenthal, fercrissakes. As one of Costa’s followers said, they want to go full Springer.
@Trentrunner: Damn, Rudi has lost it even more than I thought. I wonder if Maddow knew about this when she asked Tweety if she though Rudi had lost it.
fuckwit
Late to the game here, but I thought the most fascinating exchange was when Martha the moderator started *arguing* with Troll.
It was about Syrian refugees. He refused to answer the question: what was to be done to save them? Her voice cracked. She was emotionally upset by even asking the question. Troll avoided it. She kept on him, again and again, demanding he answer the question. She got even more upset. She was having none of his bullshit.
I was cheering, yelling “FINALLY A MODERATOR!!!”
My theory? She’s a reporter or editor somewhere. She has seen graphic, disturbing, horrifying footage or has personal first-hand experience of the carnage Russia is generating in Syria– stuff that’s too graphic or awful to be allowed on the air–, and she’s seriously shaken by it. And she wasn’t going to allow Troll to just skate away from any responsibility for even addressing the issue of helping those people.
JR in WV
@piratedan:
Regarding
I’m pretty sure I read somewhere his taxes are being audited from 2009-2016. So there you go, all of them, Katie! I think we have the foundation records, that’s what the guy at WaPo has been working on so well. The same guy who broke the rape tape… IIRC.
Otherwise, all good questions!
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Yup. This.
Trentrunner
@fuckwit: Martha Raddatz has been ABC’s foreign correspondent for a long time.
Adam L Silverman
Costa’s scoop is that Bannon and Guilianni had planned to have the four Clinton accusers enter with the Trump family and sit in their box. The plan was to force a face to face confrontation between the four women and President Clinton. One of the Co-Chairs of the Commission on the Presidential Debates, Frank Fahrenkopf, stopped them, they try to push him on it, he put his foot down, and now they are going to begin a campaign tomorrow to have him removed from his position running the Commission on the Presidential Debates and they are prepared to hold the 3rd and final debate hostage to do so.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/10/trumps-debate-plan-to-seat-bill-clintons-accusers-in-family-box-was-thwarted/?postshare=811476078962605&tid=ss_tw
Comrade Scrutinizer
@hovercraft: I know that this is a wet dream for the Trumpkins, but I really don’t see what else it accomplishes. This is so old, and has been so fully assimilated, that I can’t see that it moves any votes to Trump or away from Clinton.
TriassicSands
What a ridiculous statement. I’m considerably older than you are, John, I’m a white male and I was voting and working for Democrats when you were a toddler. Yes, there are lots of white males who are going to vote for Trump. Is that worse than the women or minorities who are supporting him?
Personally, I agree with HRC, Trump supporters are deplorable. Not half, but all. There is no excuse, no personal tragedy, not life-altering setback, no economic crisis that can justify a vote for Trump. The man is human garbage. Asking Clinton to say she liked or admired something about Trump was an appalling question. I’d have an easier time coming up with something good to say about Al Capone.
Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck
@Trentrunner:
THAT was their plan? Among its many flaws, Bill is a career politician. He can shake the hand of his worst enemy and give them a twinkling smile.
EDIT – @Adam L Silverman:
I could not be that lucky. I suspect that as the narrative of this debate transforms to ‘Trump said WHAT crazy-ass shit?!’ he will feel embarrassed again and not want to do a third anyway. He’s good at lying to himself, but that debate did not go the way he planned in general. Hillary brushed off all his threats with ease.
jl
@Trentrunner: Well, yeesh, that does it for me. How can we vote for a sex scoundrel like Bill Clinton.. I mean,… oh.. wait..
Adam L Silverman
@Mart: I’m not sure I understand the question.
Major Major Major Major
@Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck: Not just any career politician, he’s Bill fucking Clinton. If anybody can greet his worst enemy with a smile it’s him.
hovercraft
@Trentrunner: @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
These people are insane. So they actually think that would have worked?
The republican party must be so proud of their nominee. May he live a long life with his twitter followers, to keep egging him on.
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: As I told the kid about bears, it’s not important if you can outrun a bear, just as long as you can outrun me.
Trentrunner
@Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck: Clinton can keep his cool, but no guarantee about the four women, who were each in various states of distress/stress. (Paula Jones was shouting at the end of the photo op a few minutes earlier.)
This was a reality show move on a presidential stage with potentially serious consequences. This man has to lose.
Mnemosyne
@TriassicSands:
FWIW, there are more white males who are going to vote for Trump than women or minorities. A LOT more.
Adam L Silverman
@JR in WV: Exodus Chapter 20:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9881/jewish/Chapter-20.htm
Hebrew side by side with English translation. It is important to remember that in a Jewish bible the text would be surrounded by several different rabbinic commentaries. So in the best one I have these run about three or four pages because of the commentaries taking up space on the page.
jl
@Mnemosyne: There are people with unsound judgment in every demo, sadly. That is a fact of humanity for last, maybe, thousands and thousands of years. So what? I’m not sure what point that commenter is trying to make.
TriassicSands
Although it is logistically (and probably legally) impossible at this point, the correct response for the Republican Party at this time would be to withdraw altogether from the presidential race and allow Clinton to run (effectively) unopposed. Yes, the minor party candidates would remain, that is their right, but there should be no Republican presidential or vice presidential candidate this year. And Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and Reince Priebus should all make nationally televised apologies to the American people for inflicting Donald Trump on the world.
Mnemosyne
@Trentrunner:
Given that Bill has seemed a little frail in his public appearances, I’m not sure that having people surround him and shout at him would have had the desired effect.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Well, I’m sure the GOP will rally around Trump in his efforts to force a photo op between Clinton and Puala Jones.
]
JR in WV
@Mnemosyne:
Excellent analysis of the situation, in my view. Thanks.
Most of our real internal problems still stem from the peculiar institution of the south, racial slavery. Racists are still everywhere, in camo.
They just can’t believe that other white folks don’t agree with them. And are so shocked when that doesn’t work out for them every time.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Adam L Silverman: So they aren’t trying to win this election anymore. They’re shifting into burn it all down mode.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: Frank Fahrenkopf is the Republican co-chair.
jl
@BillinGlendaleCA: Next time I am down near Glendale, or La Crescenta or wherever you claim to be from, I’ll be on the watch for stoners with calves the size of….
Mnemosyne
@jl:
It’s not that a few deluded souls are going to vote for Trump. It’s that a majority of a large demographic is going to do it. It’s kind of weird to have the comeback to that fact be, Well, 2 percent of black voters are going to vote for Trump, so why are people freaked out that 50+ percent of white voters will do the same?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Trentrunner: @Adam L Silverman: and I wonder if Conway’s “unless…” was a warning to Banning and Rudi, and Jared and “Mr Trump”, that they didn’t need one more bad story
Mnemosyne
@TriassicSands:
I’m still rooting for Alan Keyes, myself. He’s (pre-)tanned, rested, and ready!
TriassicSands
@Major Major Major Major:
Who makes the determination that it was a “bad enough” night? Trump always believes he’s done a terrific, unbelievable job. If the polls say he lost, that would be because they’re biased against him, the moderators weren’t fair, HRC has rigged everything (just ask Bernie), and every other lame excuse that losers — who can’t admit defeat no matter how badly they’ve blown it — come up with.
My guess would be that Trump, who thinks he won the first debate, thinks he crushed Clinton on debate two. As HRC said, Donald lives in an alternate reality.
Anoniminous
@Adam L Silverman:
They really don’t know what they are doing, do they?
Adam L Silverman
@BillinGlendaleCA: And a former RNC Chair too!
jl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
” they want to go full Springer. ”
I guess the plan fell apart when they couldn’t get security guards with water bottles into the debate hall? I guess we know what one of Trump’s complaints will be about. I see new demands for the next debate. Must have Springer security team with water bottles, or it is rigged and unfair.
Adam L Silverman
@Comrade Scrutinizer: From Costa’s reporting, Bannon was the lead on this idea with assistance from Jared Kushner. Guiliani is just the campaign’s agent in negotiations/dealings with the Debate Commission (among other duties), but the reporting is this was a Bannon idea that Trump approved. Bannon has long argued, and used Breitbart to argue, that the GOP needs to be burned down. As Joy Ann Reid said about 45 minutes ago – the person that the Breitbart crowd and Bannon hate almost as much as Hillary Clinton is Paul Ryan.
jl
@Mnemosyne: I agree with you. Disturbing how many less educated white males are hanging with Trump. Makes me more than a little nervous about a large chunk of my demo.
Edit: I’m not a less educated, but I think you get my point.
hovercraft
@Anoniminous:
Don’t for a minute think they don’t know what they are doing, they know exactly what they are doing.
Major Major Major Major
@TriassicSands: Well, obviously Pence would make that call. Trump probably arrested the perception of his free-fall tonight by not, I don’t know, punching her on stage. If he’d really shit the bed, like worst than the first debate shit the bed, the denunciations would be coming hard and fast right now. As it is Paul Ryan et al will cling feebly to the SS Trump and hope nobody remembers. This was not guaranteed this morning. I feel like it is now, at least until the fifteenth shoe drops on, I don’t know, Wednesday or something.
Frankensteinbeck
@TriassicSands:
Trump knows he lost the first debate. His increasingly unhinged anger and excuses since proved it. I guess we’ll see how he reacts to this one.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
I think I have the Clinton campaign’s response to that.
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: Glendale, it’s in my nym and I’m clean and sober.
sukabi
@Trentrunner: wow, that is revolting, but not surprising. There is no bottom to drumpfs well of despicable behavior.
Good for the commission for not allowing drumpf to turn the debate into a wwe clown show.
jl
@BillinGlendaleCA: Oh, but you have tats and ear piercings, right? Or have I confused you with another commenter?. Whatever, I be extra cautious when down there.
Mnemosyne
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Did you know there are two Glendales in California? I confused some people at a convention in San Jose because they thought I was from the Nor Cal Glendale, not the So Cal one.
hovercraft
@jl:
Is it speculate about our identities night?
jl
Glendale, Humboldt County, California? Via wiki.
I did not know that. thanks.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Doubtful. Conway is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mercers. They are her primary, and largest, client. And the impression I’ve gotten in the reporting on the connections is that they have the final say on what she does. They also have a large stakehold into Bannon, but he has his own personal fortune from when he was on Wall Street. And they have a large hook into Bossie. Bannon has fuck you money of his own, but if he were to walk away, he looses the Mercer money, which is all that is keeping Breitbart afloat. And remember, Conway was one of Starr’s elves in the 90s. She only exists in the world of Republican politics because she got her start dredging around Arkansas with Ann Coulter and Barbara Comstock and David Bossie. Between that ideological commitment to going after the Clinton’s and that she is owned by the Mercers, she won’t go anywhere. And remember, regardless of her title, she is simply and only the campaign’s prime surrogate. Her job is to go on TV and spin – that’s it.
JR in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks, very interesting.
jl
@hovercraft: I guess so. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Edit: but I think BillinGlendale posted some pics awhile back, so I was wondering if I got him mixed up with someone else.
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: I have some ink and piercings(ears and elsewhere).
And, yes I have posted some photos that I’m in.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: I knew about some other Glendales, just not in CA.
sigaba
@jl: Wow there’s a Glendale in Humboldt county?
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
And all of the villagers love her, so she is allowed to spout her bullshit with almost no pushback. Chuck Todd called her a really good person tonight.
SRW1
@Adam L Silverman:
Threatening to be a no-show for the third debate is gonna do Trump a world of good, given that he is the one who needs to make up ground. Geniuses!
BillinGlendaleCA
They’re putting paid parking at Griffith Observatory, bastards.
TriassicSands
@Mnemosyne:
Of course there are, but demographics don’t vote. Groups don’t vote. Every vote is a personal decision that each person makes.
Villifying a sex, age cohort, ethnic group, or whatever is ridiculous. People vote as individuals. Some BJ commenters have criticized millennials for either not voting or supporting a third party candidate. All the millennials I know are voting for Clinton. Amazingly, all my white male friends over the age of 40 are also voting for Clinton.
I can’t take any blame because most white males are voting for Trump. And you don’t get any credit for women supporting Clinton. I’m certainly not ashamed to be a white male (nor am I proud) since I had nothing to do with my color, sex, or age. But I am responsible for my vote.
I’m going to vote for Clinton. I’m working for her. I’ve donated money to her campaign. I’ve tried very hard to dissuade people from supporting Trump. If Trump wins it won’t be because white men voted for him — it will be because a majority of voters (and probably mostly white men) cast their ballots for him. But unless the white males make up a majority of all votes cast and give Trump the victory without any assistance from women and minorities, then the responsibility for Trump’s victory rests on the shoulders of everyone — equally — who cast a vote for him.
hovercraft
@jl:
Missed the pics.
@BillinGlendaleCA:
I missed them them, can we see them again?
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
You are right of course but the what, 30-40% of older white males that are not going to vote for the leader of the deplorables don’t want is to be left out of the effort to beat his dumb ass. He’s making us look bad and we don’t all deserve that. We understand that the biggest part of the group that we belong to by birth is stark raving, fucking mad, we just don’t want to be painted with that same brush.
ETA Even if the size of the group is >20%, we still don’t want to be tainted by that brush.
jl
@BillinGlendaleCA: I don’t remember pics of the piercings elsewhere, just the ears. I won’t go poking around the archives to verify.
mike in dc
@jl:
Stick your jab out and keep your hands up. :)
I did MT at Fairtex in SF from 96 to 2005.
jl
@hovercraft: BillinGlendale has linked to some great pics he took of around and about SoCal. You should look for those.
TriassicSands
@Frankensteinbeck:
I’m not sure that Trump knows he lost the debate. He knows other people think he lost the first debate, but in Trumpland those people are all losers and idiots who know nothing. I hesitate to attribute any normal metrics to Trump. I think he is a very sick man, who, as Clinton said tonight, lives in an alternate reality.
Whether knowing others think he lost the debate is the same as knowing he lost the debate is a question probably best left to psychiatrists.
jl
@mike in dc: OK, thanks.
After I got particularly wiped out in a recent ‘light’ sparring match with an instructor, I announced to the class that I have ‘a face with a love for the glove’ (and elbow and shin). But dammit, I’ll keep trying. So far, unless I can get in close quick and grapple, I am dead meat.
GregB
What is the deal with yelling sbout Sydney Blumenthal? You’d think he was s villain like Lex Luthor the he was namedropped?
Adam L Silverman
@Anoniminous: They know exactly what they are doing. Just because it doesn’t make sense to those outside looking in, doesn’t mean that its not consistent for them.
jl
@GregB: Trumpers are so deep into wingnut code word conspiracy talk, most people have no clue what they are yammering about. But the Trumpers will wonder now that Trump finally got the truth out, why everyone is not running to man the Trumper barricades.
But no, most people are, like. ‘WTF is that nut jabbering about?’
Ruckus
@TriassicSands:
This was covered in another thread but Donnie is a terminal bullshitter, among many other issues. Like all people afflicted with this, at some point they begin to believe their own bullshit. Donnie past this point a few decades ago. It doesn’t matter what he says, he is always right. Even if he contradicts himself in the next sentence. He is a believer most of all, it’s just in his case what he believes in is only himself.
BillinGlendaleCA
@hovercraft: There are in this album.
(Hint, I’m not a young Korean woman. That’s my step-daughter.)
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: Visible ones: nose and eyebrow.
Jesse
@Bailey: Let me see if I can put this succinctly enough for you: no.
I have no interest in soothing the anxieties, “real or imagined”, of (my fellow) insecure white men when the only way to soothe them is to coo softly in their ear that it’s okay if they shoot the scary black men, shut up the uppity broads, and make sure all the brown people are dishwashers and gardeners, like Jesus intended.
Improving the economy in general won’t disproportionately benefit insecure white dudes, so they’ll keep being insecure. And lashing out. And, no. No more of that. They don’t get to do that anymore.
jl
@BillinGlendaleCA: thanks. I remember hiking up there. Beautiful place. I think I made it up there every season (except cheated on the summer hike, since too hot and dry, I think I went late spring and declared it summer).
Edit: I remember some nice pics of the peak near Tahachapi Pass. I forget the name. I used to go camping up there. Closest chance you could get to snow near west LA in winter.
Death Panel Truck
@amk:
His deputy AG William Ruckelshaus refused and resigned also. Solicitor General Robert Bork was more than happy to fire Archibald Cox in the Saturday Night Massacre.
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: The kid and I were supposed to go to Mt. Lowe last month but she came down with a cold(which I’ve come down with as well).
ETA: I’m fighting the cold right now, that’s why I had to go out and get drugs(the good ones you need to show ID to buy).
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: Mt. Pinos?
Redshift
@Mnemosyne: Thank you.
TriassicSands
@Ruckus:
Honestly, I think Trump is much more and much worse that a mere terminal bullshitter. Browsing through the DSM-5 section on personality disorders Trump is all over the place.
This is what the DSM-5 says:
Anoniminous
@Adam L Silverman:
I don’t know if you have read Goebbels or Ellul but the ground rule of persuasion is the propagandist is not the audience. The second rule is the audience has to grasp what the message is saying. Sending messages only cognizable to people who are already persuaded is a waste of time.
hovercraft
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Cool pictures.
jl
@BillinGlendaleCA: Yes. Good old Mt. Pinos. If any place had some snow, Mt Pinos would. Even if just three or four inches. Nice place.
TriassicSands
@Mnemosyne:
I’m shocked! You’d put Keyes ahead of Herman Cain? I guess that’s just a sign of how deep the Republican presidential bench is.
TS
@Bailey:
In your g d dreams – any non-white voter has a VERY good idea of the difference
TriassicSands
@Ruckus:
I recently reunited with a couple of guys I knew almost fifty years ago. One of our most striking common memories was of Billy X (name withheld in case he’s changed) who would frequently begin his declarations with “You ain’t gonna believe this, but it ain’t no booooooooooooshit!”
The great thing was that that introduction was a sure sign that what would follow was going to be total BS. Sadly, Trump doesn’t have the same habit.
Mnemosyne
@TriassicSands:
@Ruckus:
Hey, I’m not too thrilled that my personal demographic (married white women over 40) is statistically just as electorally stupid as white men and will probably go for Trump in somewhat smaller numbers, but I don’t see any reason to deny reality and pretend that there isn’t something weird about the fact that one specific demographic group will be voting for Trump in droves while every other demographic flees from him as fast as they can. I mean, this is a guy who makes McCain and Romney look good, and yet you still have people sticking with him out of tribal loyalty.
BillinGlendaleCA
@hovercraft: Thanks.
@jl: We were going to go up there last fall, but the timing didn’t work out. The youngin was till in nursing school last year.
Mnemosyne
@TS:
Hence my long rant above about the racial caste system vs. the economic class system. People who have historically been in the lower tiers of the racial caste system know goddamned well the difference between economic class and racial caste and why improving one’s economic class doesn’t help much with racial caste.
Spider-Dan
@Bailey: As a whole, the Democratic Party is far more progressive now than at any point in it’s history. To some extent, it is unfair to compare the Democratic Party of 2016 to, say, 1952, when even the Republicans supported a 90% top marginal tax rate. And even 1952 Democrats (or 1932 Democrats) had no interest in passing free healthcare for all, or free college for all. The idea that there was some magical point in history when the Democratic establishment Used To Be Truly Progressive is nonsense. I challenge you to name any such period – preferably one where the Democratic Party was not primarily composed of racists from the South.
Bailey
@Spider-Dan:
On social issues and progress, we are certainly to the left of previous eras. On economic issues, we are just not at all. The Dem party is at one with Wall Street now—could not be farther away from FDR / LBJ if we tried.
Bailey
@TS:
Statistically, it is the non-white voter that is most absent at mid-terms. So what is the rationale?
Bailey
@Jesse:
Your succinct answer does not bode well for future. No one’s asking to easy anyone’s racial anxieties. But if you think there aren’t white, non-racist, people out there swallowed by debt, unable to make a good income or otherwise underemployed you are purposely myopic.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Bailey:
Bullshit.
Bailey
@BillinGlendaleCA:
You’re kidding, right? You simply must be joking.
RaflW
The Democratic party has closer ties to big banks and finance than I’d like.
But we also managed under intense GOP resistance to move the CFPB forward. Republicans fought this tooth and nail (and Ryan bangs on as Speaker almost daily on repealing it). CPFB exposed the horribly fraudulent Wells Fargo and their ripping off 10s of thousands of customers. We are not to the bottom of that morass yet, and I trust Warren to keep hammering at them.
Paragraphs one and two above are in significant tension with each other. So, yeah, I’d say bullshit on the “Dem party is at one with Wall Street now” line. They’re too cozy in some ways, but all is far from lost.
NJ Maine Coon Slave
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t think I deserve that rant. I in no way support anyone but Hillary for President and frankly am a bit concerned at the tone of your reply.
Your rant assumes I am many things I am not. You have no idea what my values and truths are.
I have just in the past month started sharing and commenting with the BJ community afer lurking for years to my great regret.
I agree 100% with you so please refrain from flaming me when all I want to do is belong to a like-minded, intelligent and animal/pet friendly online community.
I accept and appreciate your comment,
sukabi
@Death Panel Truck: that was a shitshow, and then there was a (drunk?) Martha Mitchell making all sorts of accusations…
Drumpf would have had them all shot on 5th Ave.
sukabi
@TS: so do the white folks who aren’t repubs.
Jesse
@Bailey: Okay, I’ll make you a deal. Let’s improve the lot in life of everyone who is poor/underemployed/ill-served by modern capitalism. Any reasonable white people should calm down once we do that, right?
It will have no effect on the vast majority of Trump voters. They will only be mollified when their position improves *at the expense of others in the same boat*. And that’s not acceptable. The idea that the guy talking about how Mexicans are rapists became popular because of “economic insecurity” is laughable.
If refusing to coddle racist assholes makes me “myopic”, I’m okay with that. And if you think the modern Democratic Party is *at one* with Wall Street, you’re out to lunch. To which party does Sen. Elizabeth Warren belong? Think hard.
Darkrose
@jl:
I’m must be really tired, because I kept trying to parse that as “cage-free ice cubes” and trying to figure out how that would work.
Keith G
@Jesse: . To which party does Sen.Chuck Shumer and Debbie Wasserman Schultz belong?
Look both you and Bailey make good points. Keep in mind that human beings, collectively and individually, are awash in contradictions so blanket statements about how people feel and what motivates them might be problematic at times. I have read solid reporting from professionals who I regard as highly competent saying things that back up some of the ideas that Bailey has put forth here.
I guess the question becomes how much should the Democratic party care about such matters. My inclination is that the party will try to reach out to those who feel the way that Bailey has described. The reason for this is that the Democratic party needs to become a more successful Congressional party. Being a party that easily has advantages in presidential elections is not enough.
SFAW
@Bailey:
What does your answer have to do with what TS said, other than to present (indirectly) yet another of your bullshit points? It’s like watching Trump being asked about the economy, and him talking about Paula Jones.
But thanks for your concern.
RedDirtGirl
@Bailey: Thank you for articulating that.
Applejinx
@Mnemosyne: This, I’ll buy. It’s very frustrating to me seeing Bailey nattering on and hammering the economic realities because I’m about half convinced he’s a paid troll, and I get the feeling his message is ‘and Hillary Clinton will just make it much worse!’
Bullshit. I have been saying for months, I think she’s smart enough to figure out the real economic catastrophe, and also to do things to fix it. There’s votes in that, and I believe she’ll do whatever it takes. This isn’t the 90s. The smart money is figuring things out, and ball’s in Hil’s court. We will get a main street bailout if/when she is elected.
I don’t think all the Dem rank and file are up to speed on this, and that’s okay so long as the brain trust is reality based.
I do see the argument that ‘too many white people whether poor or soon-to-be-poor are clinging to a racial caste system that tells them they’re gods next to black people’ and I don’t know what to do with that other than hate it. I don’t know anybody like that. I would disown close family members if they made a point of advocating that, and I get real cranky when I see the dogwhistling no matter who does it.
So hard to disentangle the things, especially when trolls come and try to use certain real problems as the thin end of a wedge to argue that the race thing isn’t happening…
JR in WV
@NJ Maine Coon Slave:
Mnemosyne’s rant wasn’t aimed at you particularly. It is a valid description of the origins of political beliefs of people who intend to vote for Trump because of their racist fantasies. She wasn’t calling you a racist, particularly, just pointing the description of Trump voter origins at you because you seemed interested in why these fools are voting for a deranged sociopath.
Don’t take things personally at all unless people start calling out FU troll in unison, the odd FU from a crochety member of the community is just punctuation. I still have friendly chats with old timers who have told me to get stuffed with a rusty chainsaw, once or twice, late a night. Because they didn’t , mean it as a personal put down, just a back off for the night.
Pretty much the only rule is no racism or hate, personal carrying on that only affects a couple of folks, cussing, etc is no big deal. There are words like casino or poker that can’t be used because of the spam filter. Also pharmacy and the things like cialis or viagra sold there will make your posts go into moderation.
Welcome, don’t be a stranger, just strange.
Applejinx
Also, fuck you, Bailey, the Dems in 2016 are not the same as Republicans. This isn’t the 90s anymore. Being a psycho milton friedman Pinochet-loving Chicago School shock doctrine capital-evangelist is NOT a sustainable position nor do Democrats want to resemble that.
Be cynical, just for a moment. There’s huge documented votes in taking a populist tack and denying you ever were a neo-anything. Back when that shit was going down (of course it still is, but when it was wave of the future and fashionable), there was NO shame in being that, and the word was it would bring prosperity to all.
Can’t keep a lie that big, alive forever. Repudiating that evil bullshit is now trendy.
It’s as simple as that. And the Democrats are both better positioned to enjoy the backswing, and quicker to jump on it, plus I seriously believe they actually LIKE being populist and liberal. Who would have thought, right?
You, Bailey, are probably just a troll but if you’re not, you’re at least twenty years out of step with what’s really happening politically. Catch up, please. The rest of us are going on without you, often in the direction you supposedly advocate, except your real agenda is to say ‘oh the Dems are so evil, they will refuse to do any of this! both sides!’
:P
Ruckus
@TriassicSands:
Just got up so here is my answer.
You are correct, he is much more and much worse. It manifests itself by the bullshitting. That’s the outward system that anyone should be able to recognize. What he does with it and the other things he does, like the attempts at domination that make him much worse. One could be a terminal bullshitter without the rest of it, but then they really are just the guy in the bar that no one talks to. Donnie is far worse than that guy, who is just pathetic and can be easily ignored.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
It’s not tribal loyalty, it’s racism pure and simple. Many old white men are fucking racists at their core, they grew up that way, they got even more bitter as they got older and found that their lives weren’t what they think they should have been and are looking for anything else but themselves or just life to blame. They are fucking racists. They may be dumb assholes as well but they are racists first and foremost.
PaulWartenberg2016
I must be in the minority of 40-something white males or something because Trump is a goddamn lying raping racist sonofabitch from where I stand.
I blame my Masters degree in Library Info Sciences.
PaulWartenberg2016
@Betty Cracker:
That has been the plan for the Republicans since the 1960s. They looked at the demographics and geography and realized if they appealed mostly to White voters they could secure over 70 percent of the population (Whites were about that percentage back then).
While that helped their party secure their wins by the 1980s and 1990s, they never cared about the consequences of driving first the Black voters (now 95-98 percent for Democrats) and then the Latino voters (was 70 percent in 2012 but with Trump in play we’re looking at 85-90 percent for Democrats) away to create a solid voting bloc for Dems. And it never occurred to them that they can’t coalesce White voters around their dog-whistling racism (because White voters ironically have the luxury of judging parties on other merits SUCH AS SEXISM and sheer ineptitude of the GOP leadership since 1994).
The Republicans wanted to play a Game of Demographics (racism) and Geography (gerrymandering) to force their wins at the national level. But the Demographics are turning on them (Latino population increases making southern and western states untenable, steady Black populations making large states unwinnable, and they’re losing women voters across the board) and at some point even Geography won’t work (as states undergo redistricting reforms).
Uncle Cosmo
@JR in WV: My cousin up in Marion County (year older than me [i.e., even older than dirt], one son a retired Marine, boocoo health issues, crabby as the day is l…um, doesn’t put up with the Bravo Sierra) asked me the other day, Yeeew votin’ fer Trump? When I replied, Jeebus cripes no, not in a million years! she said, Thank God! Brought a big smile to my face.
Rob in CT
There is truth here, even if it’s overstated. A lot of white Americans (not just dudes, though dudes moreso) are in the midst of an epic temper tantrum. And it’s mostly, IMO, about loss of status due to demographic (declining white majority) and social change (gay marriage, “PC” – meaning you can be an overtly racist asshole in public anymore), with economic matters basically acting as an accelerant. The econ stuff matters, and the Dems should of course try to pass things that will help us all, but don’t expect many converts. This is about identity & one’s position in society more than it’s about economics. And the Dems are not going to (and in fact, cannot without suffering harsh electoral consequences) throw their non-white voters under the bus.
Spider-Dan
@Bailey: OK, in detail: how is the Dem party of today to the right of the 1932/1968 Dem party on economic issues?
Social Security was originally designed to exclude all minorities.
Medicare affects only the elderly.
Taken by itself, the Medicaid expansion in Obamacare would be a comparable achievement. That’s before getting to the consumer protections built in to the rest of the bill. It’s not the Democrats’ fault that SCOTUS gutted the Medicaid expansion (and it bears mentioning: without Roberts and Alito on the court, that never happens – thanks again, purists!).
Obama’s Democratic Party had less than two years to pass progressive legislation before the country handed the House back to the GOP. Neither FDR nor LBJ ever had to get a bill passed by an opposition-controlled Congress. When it comes to economic issues, the Democratic Party platform of 2016 is to the left of the platforms of 1932 and 1968, and it’s not even close.
You are peddling nonsense.