Looks like Keith Ellison will soon have some high-profile competition for the DNC chair position. Via TPM:
U.S. Labor Secretary Tom Perez will announce his candidacy for chairman of the Democratic National Committee on Thursday afternoon, according to multiple reports.
Perez is expected to make the announcement on a conference call with state party chairs, according to a source with knowledge of his planning cited in a CNN report.
The call was announced in an email sent Wednesday morning to supportive and neutral party chairs and vice chairs inviting them to an “informal discussion” about making the Democratic Party “more inclusive and one that represents all Americans,” as quoted by Politico.
I’ve always liked Perez and was hoping after the primaries that Clinton would choose him as her running mate. (No disrespect to Kaine, who is a good guy, IMO.) But would he make a good DNC chair? We’ll see what ideas he brings to the table.
I hope the Ellison-Perez contest doesn’t become a proxy war for Democrats who supported Sanders vs. those who backed Clinton. From what I know of the two men’s positions and backgrounds, that shouldn’t happen. But it might because there’s still a lot of free-floating bitterness out there, ready to latch onto the handiest issue.
IMO, there was no single cause of the 2016 debacle, so anyone identifying one problem and proposing a single solution is peddling snake oil. I don’t think Ellison or Perez either one will fall into that trap, and both have strong labor credentials. I’ll listen to both with an open mind. Not that I get a vote anyway…
So, Team Tom or Team Keith? And why?
schrodinger's cat
Team Tom because he is knowledgeable and articulate when he explains economics as it relates to labor.
Trentrunner
At some Dem event last night (according to Twitter), Sanders was shitting on Obama again. Anyone have details?
Any DNC chair must be behind Obama. End. of. story.
And if that DNC chair candidate can also signal their desire to marginalize Sanders himself while inviting his supporters into the Dem tent, they’ll have my (non-existent) vote.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
Primaries part deaux
The Moar You Know
If ability to do the job were the sole determining factor, Perez is the guy.
Dems will probably do a collective dick-stomping again and pick Ellison.
rikyrah
I am Team Perez all the way????
Bobby Thomson
I’m good with a proxy war. Ellison obviously has terrible judgment. Anyone who continued to support Sanders and his scorched earth tactics in the face of a Nazi threat is not an ally.
Yarrow
I liked what I saw of Tom Perez during the campaign. I don’t know what his organizational skills are. And I guess the DNC head needs fundraising skills too.
I like Keith Ellison fine, but I don’t like Sanders using him as a proxy to bully the rest of the Democrats, a party he seems to believe isn’t good enough for him to join.
schrodinger's cat
@Trentrunner: Has Sanders been a pawn in the Kremlin game or something more? That’s what I want to know.
SiubhanDuinne
I like both of them, from what little I know, with a slight tilt toward Perez at the moment. The new DNC chair is going to need to devote full time to the job (which I believe is the case with both Ellison and Perez). He needs to work with every single state party to help develop the farm teams of candidates we are going to need to rely on in 4-6-8 years from now. And he needs to collaborate with state parties on ensuring that fundraising, volunteer forces, and candidate bases are sustainable over the long haul. He needs to be both inspiring and grounded in reality. He needs to be strongly principled but flexible enough to respond nimbly to new challenges and unanticipated opportunities. And he needs to be able to articulate in clear, direct, memorable language what the Democratic Party stands for. The DNC platform on a bumper sticker, ideally.
Did I see somewhere that the new RNC chair is going to be Mitt Romney’s niece???
Terry Buckalew
Keith Ellison for me please, although Perez would be fine. Ellison has more experience with politicking and fundraising.
Feebog
Either would be capable of doing the job. IMO we need someone who is capable of not only organizing Dems, but fighting gerrymandering in key states like Ohio and Michigan.
MomSense
Team Perez. He has been a champion for civil rights, voting rights and the fight for $15. He’s the total package.
wormtown
Been impressed with Perez. Hope he gets the position. And then everyone just get to work, whoever ends up in it.
cosima
I don’t see why we should take a chance on young Mr. Ellison — I’ve not read enough to know if he’s been doing this since he was out of nappies, but seems to me that Perez’ experience is likely to be a bit more expansive (big-picture) & well-rounded. I also don’t think that we should take a chance re: losing Ellison’s seat in Congress.
FU Bernie Sanders, that is all that I’ll say about that Benedict Arnold grifting fleabag.
My daughter is in the lock-up pen with our Lola (closing in on 2 weeks down, 2 to go), and reading her Christmas stories. It’s making her very happy (the dog, not daughter).
randy khan
Purely from an optics perspective, since I don’t really know much about what either of them would do as chair, I’d go with Perez. He’s Hispanic, a constituency that’s growing significantly and that the Dems should work to keep on our side. And, frankly, he’s probably less threatening to the people we lost in the last election than Ellison would be. (I hate that I just typed those words, by the way, but that’s the world we’re in.)
This is not what you’d call a strong view, however. If one of them had an obviously better plan to move forward, then I’d go with that person.
rikyrah
I am Team Perez because he is the choice of the last two Democratic nominees which include a two term President.
And because Ellison in spineless…That bullshyt about we should just accept Ferret Head.
PHUCK OUTTA HERE???
BillCinSD
do you not read the comments here? This thread already is a shitshow of recriminations in less than 20 comments
p.a.
Online Guide to Resisting tRump Agenda
Alesis
I think that having an African American Muslim rust belt populist in the spotlight gainsaying the Trump administration will be useful in keeping the Dem coalition shooting outside the tent. It helps that like with Kazir Khan he will likely bait the trumpists in to continually placing their feet in their mouths.
That said I think Perez is a rising star and whether or not he chairs the DNC I think he should run for MD Governor in 2 years.
Also shave his head.
mai naem mobile
Team Perez. I was impressed when I saw him on CNBCs Squawk Box a few times because he dealt just fine With the RWNJs. He’s smart,funny,Hispanic, was the Labor Cabinet guy under Obama and worked for Clinton in the DOJ Civil Rights Division. The guy is a whole package. It also gives him facetime on teevee to run for governor or whatever down the road. Nothing wrong with Keith Ellison,Perez is a better fit. Also why doesn’t Keith have a bigger job in the House?
FlipYrWhig
Perez certainly has more experience in leadership of a large organization. My quick and probably unfair take is that Ellison is more in line with “identity politics” and Perez more in line with economic justice. If it were shaping up to be a proxy war between Sanders and Clinton, you’d expect it to be the reverse. I’m sure there are many aspects I’m underestimating, though…
Betty Cracker
@BillCinSD: I meant among the actual voters. Of course it instantly became a shitshow here! This is Balloon Juice!
Bobby Thomson
@FlipYrWhig: as with all things Sanders, he and his most frothing backers support people who endorsed him over those who agree with him on policy. Case in point: the homophobic Trump fan Tulsi Gabbard.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Ellison making his recent appearance a stop on the Bernie Sanders’ I Told You So Tour makes inclined to support Perez, but I’m curious why you think Ellison would be a self-dick-stomp?
Thoroughly Pizzled
I don’t know which team I’m on yet. Whoever’s better at the boring work, I guess. And someone who won’t make a bunch of unforced errors.
Leaning toward Perez because of how horrible the opposition to him is. But I like Ellison.
Major Major Major Major
Then you’re going to be sorely disappointed.
Xantar
Perez simply because the DNC chair can’t be a part time job. Nothing in particular against Ellison.
hovercraft
@randy khan:
Stating the reality we face is necessary if we are going to get back to where we were by the time the Shitgibbon is done. Unfortunately we have a nation full of people who have their heads so far up their asses they don’t have any idea of what’s going on in this country, they were warned about the threat we were all facing, and their collective reaction was MEH. So if selecting another muslim terrorist loving black man is going to scare even more of theses morons into the dark lords realm, I say we select the brown man who is only going to take over our country not destroy it.
Jesus America, how the hell have we come to this. I blame the media for not calling bullshit on republicans and their lies everyday all day until they were forced to stop. Instead we have a media that when it can be bothered to bestir itself pushing back on any goddamn thing, tries for all of 2 seconds before they say it’s time to “move on” to the next thing they want to lie about. Don’t move on, stay on the topic till they give you a straight answer, if the entire interview consists of the same question being asked over and over, so be it, your job is to get a straight answer, not to allow them to squeeze in as many bullshit talking points as they can in three minutes. They are obviously capable of being dogged interrogators, just look at any interview any of them ever had with Hillary. I mean FFS even Matt Fuckin Lauer spent 12 minutes of a thirty minute forum asking bullshit questions about her damn e-mail server.
I’m sorry, what were we talking about again? Oh yeah, I like Perez, he’s funny and knows his stuff. The fact that Ellison is was a Bernie guy gives me a great deal of pause. I like the guy, but his judgment is questionable, support whomever you like in a primary, but when the writing is on the wall and the race is over, concede the damn race. Standing by his man while he dragged the process on for no reason other than vanity, is a black mark against him in my book.
randy khan
@Alesis:
If Perez is going to run for governor of Maryland (and that would be swell), then I don’t want him to be the head of the DNC – we need someone who will be focused on the job through the next election cycle, not prepping to run in that cycle.
schrodinger's cat
@Bobby Thomson: Tulsi is cray cray, she was home schooled by a Hare Krsna curious father. Hare Krsna is to Hinduism as the megachurch cultists are to Christianity.
Major Major Major Major
@FlipYrWhig:
I agree and frankly find this to be baffling.
I like Perez, because experience.
@Xantar: Keith said he’d resign.
randy khan
@Xantar:
Ellison has said he’ll resign his House seat if he gets the DNC spot.
SatanicPanic
How about someone from California? We’re the only people doing this right. Maybe someone from Oregon or WA.
schrodinger's cat
@hovercraft: Bernie or busters I know IRL have little sense, that’s what gives me pause.
Thoroughly Pizzled
Did even one person decide their vote because of something Reince Priebus did?
Major Major Major Major
@SatanicPanic: our progressive betters (and republicans that for some reason we listen to) inform me that coastal elites are out this season.
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: We are always in season, damn it!
* Waving from the other coast.*
gvg
@Xantar: Ellison already stated he would resign his house seat if he got the job-setting a good example. I think he is a safe democrat seat with democrat governor. we already worried about this until he made that announcement.
Governor race in Maryland is apparently 2018 so Perez has 2 years to get stuff done. I think its a job that needs some changeover but not sure.
geg6
Team Tom. Mainly because I still have my doubts about Ellison’s ability to organize the party and I think he’s more valuable as a congresscritter. Perez has organizational abilities and, if we are going to be forced to be wedded to the stupid WWC and its stupid nonsensical economic anxiety, he’s the guy to explain actual, real economic issues and how to fix them.
Botsplainer
Bets, can we have you front page that Vanity Fair review of the Trump Grille?
Tina Nguyen needs to have my babies, and I’m willing to suffer the vasectomy reversal and the agony of child support court to make it happen. I’m so in love with her writing.
geg6
@Trentrunner:
Yeah, gotta agree on that, too. I really don’t want anyone linked to Sanders in any way at the helm of my party. Sanders is not a Democrat and I don’t want anything smelling of him stinking up my joint.
SatanicPanic
@Major Major Major Major: It’s everyone else that’s out of touch. Even Richard Cohen agrees!
Chris
@hovercraft:
Chicken and egg. The media devolved into its current “Shape Of Earth: Views Differ” thing because the somewhat more reality-based programming of earlier decades was hurting the delicate feelings of white non-liberals (i.e. the majority, and disproportionately well represented) by portraying things they didn’t want to think about, and they were reacting by screaming media bias. Coverage of American war crimes in Vietnam made them feel bad, coverage of violence against blacks made them feel bad, coverage of corruption and abuse by popular government departments made them feel bad, etc. In other words, the market for reality-based media was shrinking and the market for a media that coddled the feelings of illiberal whites was growing. Which of course quickly becomes a feedback loop.
Nowadays there’d probably be more of an audience for reality than there was in the days of Nixon and Reagan’s “silent majority,” but in the meantime, the media’s thoroughly programmed itself to be “Shape Of Earth: Views Differ,” and a ton of loud and active people are dedicated to it staying that way.
Bobby D
Frankly, neither. Not impressed by either of them, at all. Howard Dean was proven, effective, and my preference. If faced with only Ellison and Perez, I’d take Perez simply because Elllison’s demeanor comes across poorly to unaffiliated voters (not my opinion, but what I’ve heard directly from “I’m an indenpdent” voters in my family), and Keith is probably easier to effectively attack.
I’ll support whoever becomes the chair, but it better not be a part-timer, this isn’t a part time job. If Ellison wins he’d better resign his seat and put full focus on the job.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Botsplainer: ah, I wondered what was distracting our President (Elect) from intelligence briefings today
5:05 am today, so he’s ready for a crisis at all hours
hovercraft
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The head of the DNC, running around saying I told you so to a party whose majority nominated the person he was warning us against, is a dick stomp. Bernie is NOT a DEMOCRAT, he ran as one, and as soon as he lost he renounced his membership to the party. He used the party to try to get the nomination, and now he and his acolytes want to turn it into his image. We are a big tent, as much as I mostly hate Manchin, and the other conservadems, I understand that someone like Bernie or Warren could never get elected in Montana or Florida, or even Illinois, we are a diverse party, and calling people corporate democrats may feel good, but it doesn’t get anything done. Schumer may be D (Wall Street), but when Obama needed him, he was there. How many people who loved Tom Harkin know that he was a bulwark against the regulation of the supplement industry, they are able to sell all that crap with virtually no oversight because Harkin, that good liberal, and Orin Hatch protected them for years. Every liberal champion has an issue they are terrible on, Bernie has guns, heck even Warren was a big proponent of repealing the medical device tax, because MA is the home of many of the manufacturers.
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
Perez came to my attention not as labor sec but on voting rights. Perez was the lawyer who had to sit thru 6 months of Republicans making stuff up about the New Black Panthers.
This was BEFORE he was a very good sec of labor :)
Anyone who could sit thru that bullshit and still want to work in government is devoted.
Pogonip
Just so nobody will miss it–you MUST go to goodmorningkitten dot com and check out the great pictures of the big-brother cat cuddling the tiny kitten. Cutest thing ever.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled politicking.
schrodinger's cat
@hovercraft: I am not as big a Warren fan as many on this blog. Her hectoring tone and I-told-you-so mannerisms really grate on me. I actually agree with much of what she says.
* ducks, preparing for brickbats*
Jinchi
It’s amazing that the proxy war starts in the second comment of a the post. If you guys are serious about winning the next round you need to stop sniping at your own team.
Calouste
@hovercraft:
The answer is right in there, right at the beginning. Evangelicals just don’t live in reality. Once you can get people to believe that their interior dialogue is their god is talking to them every day, you can get them to believe anything.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@hovercraft: I hate Bernie Sanders’ guts, liver and kidneys, and like I say, Ellison’s apparent desire to keep Bernie! front and center is a reason I’m disinclined to support him, but I’m trying to be fair, to not condemn Ellison out of guilt by association. I did him on the ObamaBros’ podcast and he actually used the phrase “Bless his heart” to describe the Obama presidency, which also suggests a Green Lanternish approach to politics, OTOH, he does have a record of building broad support in MN. We don’t need another TV talking head, IMHO, we need a party builder, someone with ideas for winning statehouses and House seats– other people have said the DNC chair doesn’t actually do this, that it’s a pure figurehead position, but it seems to me the potential is there for the next chair to reshape the position, especially with the help of a politician with a national profile whose popularity is broad and deep, and not just loud and self-righteous.
ETA: @schrodinger’s cat: I like her myself, but her attack on a Dem-friendly, regulation supporting banker the other day was like she had read your comments and decided to prove you right. I still like her, but I’m not convinced of her viability as a national candidate. Lawrence O’Donnell, maybe TV’s most surprising Sanders supporter, was all hot and bothered about her getting a seat on the Armed Services Committee last night, because 2020!
Major Major Major Major
@schrodinger’s cat: others must see something in her tone that I don’t because I don’t find her speeches very inspiring, but that’s just my opinion. I’ve been less than impressed with some of her stands since the election though, like being against the medical research bill (which on balance was a good bill to pass) or the other day when she attacked a democrat-supporting, regulation-supporting banker.
@hovercraft:
Which is not, like, a secret, either.
How long until the trolls show up guys?
Yarrow
@Botsplainer: Yep. That’s the first thing that’s made me laugh in awhile. Awesome article. And Trump’s tweet in retaliation shows they drew blood. Such thin skin.
schrodinger's cat
@Botsplainer: That was funny, thanks!
rikyrah
@geg6:
Amen
Yarrow
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Never forget, Graydon Carter is responsible for the accurate phrase “short-fingered vulgarian.” I ho[e he never lets up on Trump.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Kay,
You and I have been Team Perez for awhile.
Major Major Major Major
@Jinchi: I can say “fuck Snowden” and still have a rational discussion about the NSA. I don’t really see much of a proxy war here. I like Perez because he’s got experience running something big and he bears Obama’s imprimatur.
msdc
Perez has administrative experience, won’t have to vacate a congressional seat to do the job full-time, and doesn’t automatically drive a wedge into the party coalition the way Ellison does. Easy call.
Yarrow
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Elizabeth Warren doesn’t want to be president. She’s very good in the Senate. We need good Senators with national profiles and big megaphones. Why do people insist they all need to run for president? So dumb.
SatanicPanic
@rikyrah: I respect your respective endorsements, so FWIW Team Perez!
Also, Bernie left the party again? F that dude.
msdc
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The RNC chair sure as hell does. Agreed about the need to reform the DNC into an actual working organization.
gene108
Team Keith here. I think he understands retail politics better than Team Perez. And what a Party needs to do at the local level to support candidates.
Another Scott
@Pogonip: I can’t seem to find the picture you’re referring to at GMK. Hint?
Cheers,
Scott.
Spanky (ex P-man)
@Botsplainer:
I see what you mean.
schrodinger's cat
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: She reminds me of some of the teachers I had in my Catholic school. The finger-wagging furrowed brow look that seems to be her favorite gives me PTSD.
Major Major Major Major
@SatanicPanic: Yes, yes he did.
Yarrow
@Spanky (ex P-man): I just want to read this again and again and again:
dr. bloor
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Of course, a shitty review of one of his precious “properties” is one of the few things that count as a crisis. Terrorists being determined to strike in US and the other junk in the Presidential Daily Briefings, not so much.
Yarrow
@schrodinger’s cat: I like Warren more when she does one-on-one interviews. I think she’s extremely smart and able to explain things in a way that people can understand the issues easily. I don’t think she is all that good at speeches. I’ve been underwhelmed with all the ones I’ve seen. Her twitter rants are fun, but mostly just catharsis for Dems. I have appreciated some of what she’s done during hearings.
Overall, I think she’s great where she is. Sure, she’s not perfect, but she’s good at what she does. Let her stay in the Senate and be a leader in economic stuff and be a strong Senator with a national profile. Why do people forget we need good Senators too?
SatanicPanic
@Major Major Major Major: I wanted to like the guy, but part of me was like, I really hope he’s not a flim-flam man like Alan Grayson, or John Edwards, or Anthony Weiner, or Ralph Nader or other guys I can’t remember. I don’t know if I’ll put him in this bunch or in the Dennis Kucinich I am a kook and you shouldn’t listen to me group, but either way, I’m past the point of wanting him in a leadership position.
? Martin
Democrats aren’t going to make a grand pivot toward working class whites, no matter what the political press speculate about. That’s a rapidly shrinking demographic group and one that will be hurt badly by a Trump presidency. Their ability to influence elections is quickly declining (although, not as fast as Clinton needed).
In rosier news:
A lot of people misunderstand what California is doing. The energy economy is huge and Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana have backed oil, West Virginia, Ohio, Kentucky have backed coal, etc. California has backed renewables – and did so decades ago. Yes, this is a climate fight, but it’s also an economic fight. It’s not an accident that California is home to the pioneering electric vehicle company, or that two thirds of hybrids and EVs are sold here.
California created the economic conditions for compact fluorescents and then for LED lighting, for hybrids and EVs. The first Prius in the US was unveiled about 50′ from where I sit now. The first fuel cell car in the US in the same place. Over half of the solar capacity of the US is in CA. We pioneered wind energy decades ago. We have been the driving force behind all water and electricity saving appliances and devices. You save money on gas because we forced the automakers to meet our efficiency and emissions standards. The federal government didn’t drive any of these – they signed on after CA put them on the books and pushed the market to already move in that direction. California’s goal, isn’t just for climate change as a moral issue, but also for the state to be the leader in the next energy economy – to displace Texas and West Virginia. Obama takes the blame for it, and liberals in general, but really it’s all CA – and it was happening when Republicans ran the state as well. It is one area where we are an absolutely unified front, and we may be up against 49 other states and lots of other countries, but we’re going to fucking win this thing. And don’t underestimate China here – they have the same attitude. They have coal but not much oil. Their future is in renewables and they know it and they are investing like crazy. Our new administration is choosing to align with Russia over oil interests and California will align with China, and I’m pretty sure we’re going to win this fight pretty easily. The economics are already on our side.
So Brown is enthusiastic not just because he cares about the environment, but he sees an opportunity for California to own even more of the US economy than we already do. He wants to take those jobs from Texas. Every unemployed coal miner becomes a solar installation job in California. Can we put up our own satellites? You bet. Not only do we have our own launch facility, we have our own private rocket company – one that is clever enough to figure out how to land and reuse the damn things. We have the best public university system in the country, hands down – half the top 10 public universities in the US are UCs, and Brown is the head of our Regents. UC runs the national labs out here, so if Perry wants to change their mission, he’s going to have to fight with Brown. Good luck with that.
So, California is going to fight the good fight. We’re not going to give an inch on liberal causes. I’m optimistic that we will be largely successful.
Another Scott
@schrodinger’s cat: She’s very good on economic issues and banking. I’ve seen almost nothing about her views on foreign affairs, nor much about how well she is able to get things done in the Senate. I don’t think she would be a good fit as President given what I know about her now – there’s much, much more to being an effective POTUS than giving a good economics speech about the importance of the middle class or being able to argue for a CFPB. How is she as a manager? How is she at persuading others in the Senate? How is she at training others to carry on her legacy (she is 67 right now).
I think she knows that she’s got a great gig in the Senate and has enough sense to stay there and build upon it. But we’ll see.
Cheers,
Scott.
johnny gentle (famous crooner)
And I’m wishing for world peace this holiday season!
tobie
To date I burn with rage at the mention of Sanders. I think he cost us the election. That said, I’m willing to give Keith Ellison a serious listen. Does anyone know of a good, substantive interview with him? Over the summer I listened to Perez’s hour-long conversation with Ezra Klein on a podcast and he was brilliant: sharp, knowledgeable about labor and industrial policy, funny, great at explaining economics, etc. If Ellison is as good as Perez, then it’s a wash for me. I just haven’t had much of a chance to listen to him speak in an interview.
Chat Noir
@Botsplainer: I liked the entire review but this line made me chuckle:
.
Mary G
I would like Ellison to stay in Congress where Republicans will have to look at him every day and he can push back effectively on their insane legislation.
tobie
@Yarrow: My impression to. She’s very good at hearings and talking one-on-one but her speeches at big venues are pretty bad. I’d go so far as to say she’s a worse speech-maker than HRC, and this worries me in a country that, I’m afraid to say, is not kind to women in power.
jake the antisoshul soshulist
Warren was a “schoolteacher”.
I am in favor of which would do a better job. Have no opinion on who that would be.
The Democratic Party has to develop a better means of countering the lies of the Republicans.
hovercraft
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I hear you on the not doing the guilt by association thing, but as I said, he chose to keep going out as a surrogate, he was not as crazy as Nina Turner, but he was still pushing Bernie even after he was no longer viable. I don’t think he was overly negative about Hillary like Turner, but I think that many Bernie supporters were led to believe/ chose to believe that he was viable long after he wasn’t, they believe that superdelegates stole the nomination from him. If people like Ellison had spoken up in March saying we ran a good race, fought the good fight, but now we are fighting to unite the party around these progressive initiatives, Bernie still could have held rallies for issues, he could have held rallies pointing out the concessions they won, asking telling his supporters that it was important for them to get out and vote for the party and it’s nominee in order to get the policies they supported enacted. Instead they kept saying that Hillary was corrupt and a corporate democrat, until the butter end, pretending that there was a way to win, with ironically the superdelegates overturning the will be the voters. We talk a lot about Shitgibbon enablers, Ellison was one for Bernie. I don’t hate him for it, but I do resent him for it.
@schrodinger’s cat: @Major Major Major Major:
I’m pretty much meh on Warren, sometimes she gets on a righteous rant about something I agree with her on, but just as often she is on a purity tear. Like Bernie she lets the perfect be the enemy of the good. Like most good things that have happened in this country, most progressive legislation started out good but flawed, it takes subsequent action to get it to the point that we all like and depend on it.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@jake the antisoshul soshulist:
I keep hearing this, but it’s hopeless – they DEMAND to be lied to! How do you out-Trump Trump, the lyingest most shameless con man that ever lived?
Icedfire
I’m okay with Perez, and I would be okay keeping Ellison as my representative if he doesn’t get the position.
How are Perez’s bomb throwing skills? I don’t know how well he can breathe fire, but I think that will be a relevant skill for the DNC chair in opposition…
SatanicPanic
@? Martin: I keep asking my friend who thinks climate change is a hoax if his energy bills have gone up? Crickets. We’re killing it with solar- there is so much going up now that we’ve already blown past the goals Jerry Brown set for us. I get why people in other states aren’t jumping on this, but they’re being stupid. I don’t know how we convince them to change their minds.
liberal
@Bobby D:
Maybe he was effective. The fact that he whored himself out to the MEK should be completely disqualifying.
Major Major Major Major
@hovercraft:
This is an excellent role for a legislator, incidentally.
@liberal: why?
Chip Daniels
I genuinely like both Sanders and HRC. When I see people pushing the ideas of “Were it not for this One Weird Mistake that HRC made, we would have won”, i have to remind people that even if she had, we would have had a very slim victory, and maybe not even the Senate, and even when we had the most outrageously bad opponent.
So the sobering truth is that we have a lot of work ahead of us, and trying to assign one simple easy silver bullet to reach liberal nirvana is as Betty says, selling snake oil.
? Martin
@SatanicPanic:
We crush them economically. If this election teaches us anything, it’s that blunt force works better than ‘we’re all in this together’. If I were more enterprising I’d build an abortion clinic/spa a short Uber ride from LAX and rake in the dough when Roe v Wade is overturned. If y’all aren’t going to listen to reason, then I guess we’ll just take your money instead.
hovercraft
@ Martin:
Democratic AG’s are ready to fight.
To Combat Trump, Democrats Ready a G.O.P. Tactic: Lawsuits
NY Times (sorry)
Egilsson
Anything that screws the Sanders crowd I support. They are poison, dishonest, and have harmed the DNC enough.
Therefore, I support Perez. Plus, he was a high powered and effective lawyer for the DOJ.
The person who needs to be fired is that Hodge guy, the DNC Communications Chair. He’s low-energy, lists to the side and inert in the face of aggressive republican lies on TV panel discussions. He’s very bad at his job.
hovercraft
@Major Major Major Major:
I agree standing up and fighting for the things you believe in to make it into the legislation in question is the righteous thing to do, but at the end of the day, you must be willing to accept half a loaf as being better than no bread at all. If not, then you are simply a member of the Freedom Caucus.
SatanicPanic
@? Martin: I like the cut of your jib
Villago Delenda Est
Team Keith, because in your orange face, shitgibbon.
MomSense
@randy khan:
WTF America 2016. Now my phone sometimes autocorrects words TO KKK. IF anything should have long been in that dustbin of history it is the kkk. I never imagined that is something I would be typing about the PEOTUS and the Presidential election in 2016!
Dog save us.
Yarrow
@SatanicPanic: Germany is way ahead in solar too. I think they’ve mandated that a majority of their electricity must be solar generated by a certain date. They’ve retrofitted buildings. I think I read they’re phasing out gasoline powered vehicles by a certain date too. Not sure on that last one. Could be diesel they’re phasing out. Anyway, they’re working hard on alternative energies, getting out front, staying ahead.
Major Major Major Major
@hovercraft: I presume Warren could be counted on if something impure came down to her vote. I’d hate to be wrong.
Bobby D
@ Martin: re: private rockets/launches. Partially true. I work on one of the few military bases that launch things. Space-X, ULA, and NASA are all here. The private companies are launching from the AF base, using pre-existing launch complexes originally built by/for the AF. IIRC, ULA now operates out of what was the space shuttle’s pad here.
Depending on what type of orbit (polar vs equatorial), you need very specific site conditions (eg, the downrange/flyover area is open ocean). There is really only one place in the US to launch polar orbit satellites. I moved to CA by choice, one of two moves in my life that was not driven by a job offer, where I said “I want to be there, I’ll figure out the job stuff”. Longest I’ve lived anywhere since college, and bought property here, intend to stay for good. I love California and Californians. We have our problems, but they pale in comparison to most states, and the diversity of people, geography, weather, food and culture is unbeatable.
MomSense
To be serious for a moment, we need a voting rights lawyer heading the DNC. Given what we have just experienced with voter suppression, voter disenfranchisement, broken machines, etc I think having a person like Perez who knows that issue cold make sure that there is sufficient institutional support for voting rights in the Democratic Party is the key to 2018 and 2020.
hovercraft
@SatanicPanic:
Just like it is sometimes cold, like today, which means climate change is a hoax, sometimes it is cloudy and rains, which means that there is no possible way that solar energy is viable, also too, the sun goes down every night, what are you smarty pants going to do about that?
This is only a slightly dumber version of conversations I have had. Obama and Hillary need to hold a joint press conference and tell these people that having carbon monoxide in your house is hazardous to your health. I know that is mean, but hey, they’re killing all of us with their stupidity.
SFBayAreaGal
NR should be appearing anytime
Yarrow
@? Martin: Can they please call it the Socialist Abortionplex? And offer gay marriage services too?
? Martin
@hovercraft: I think the appointment of Perry just absolutely, completely pisses Brown off. As governors they hated each other as no other two governors I can think of have. And I think Brown has absolutely no respect for Perry, a man who earned a D in a college class called ‘Meat’, from a program not known for its high academic rigor. (Brown went to Berkeley and Yale).
And Brown has been known to make appointments with the express intent of pissing off other politicians. He surely sees these appointments by Trump (Tillerson and Perry) as a direct poke in the eye to him and to California. So you have a term-limited 4 time governor and former attorney general of the most powerful state in the country with a massive state voter mandate, who is already known for being outspoken, now riled up personally against the president of the US. I do not think he’s going to hold back on anything.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@SFBayAreaGal: that one, the other one, maybe even a third one.
Spanky (ex P-man)
Meanwhile, NFLTG Harry Reid is being shrill again:
Major Major Major Major
@MomSense: This is a very excellent point.
@SFBayAreaGal: Yeah, we’re missing a few trolls, eh?
ruckus
@rikyrah:
I agree 100 percent.
Get along with the shit gibbon? Fuck that!
Perez has a better history as well. And we need to keep every seat we can, Ellison can be helpful where he is and season a bit more.
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: Waiting for new orders from Comrade Putin.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Spanky (ex P-man):
See, we Democrats, including Harry Reid, keep making a category error about Republicans caring about whether people die or not. They don’t. They have complete and total power over the minds of the people who vote for them, who will believe two opposite things at once – the same people who want government out of their Medicare. They will be told that if they suffer it’s someone else’s (that they hate) fault, and most importantly, will be comforted that “those people” over there are worse off than them.
SiubhanDuinne
@? Martin:
Pandering to the vegan vote.
Major Major Major Major
@schrodinger’s cat: I thought they just got google alerts. Maybe it’s because “Bernie” doesn’t show up in the post itself.
hovercraft
@ Martin:
I have no doubt that Brown disdains Perry, what sentient human being doesn’t. The fossil fuel industry is being granted enormous power in this new racketeering enterprise.
I’m sure this pisses Brown off mightily, California is at the forefront of both combating and feeling the effects of climate change, so for him to see all of these see no evil, hear no evil monkeys, must piss him off.
I hope he keeps poking them in the eye, for the benefit of his state and our country. Go Governor Moonbeam Go!
SiubhanDuinne
@MomSense:
I agree with you. And wasn’t there an announcement, or at least informed speculation, that once Obama is out of office, he and Eric Holder plan to work together on voting rights/voter suppression issues?
My god, if we had Perez, Holder and Obama operating in tandem! Three very experienced, skilled, and highly educated lawyers; all of them minorities who know first-hand what institutional racism means. For the first time since November 8th I’m allowing myself to feel a little bit hopeful that we can turn this looming horror around.
Patricia Kayden
Anyone will be better than DWS. She just wasn’t a fighter.
NR
@Egilsson:
The “Sanders crowd” didn’t lose the entire country outside of the northeast and the west coast to the Republicans over the last eight years. You guys did that.
Patricia Kayden
@Spanky (ex P-man): Love Harry Reid to pieces for speaking out but does he really believe that Republicans care about people dying unless they’re relatives or friends? I see no evidence of that.
Jeffro
@p.a.: Aha! I knew if I actually slowed down and read the thread, I’d find that someone else had already posted this. Thanks p.a.!
Folks, we can kneecap these clowns for years if we have to…and by Dec 20th, we’ll know if we have to. Please read up and let’s show the Trumpkkkins that their support is neither broad nor deep.
(Also: if anyone hears of a good plan to help NC overcome its current coup, would be happy to help out and/or contribute to that. Those clowns need to GO)
Patricia Kayden
@NR: Secretary Clinton got 3 million more votes than Trump.
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: Signal takes longer to travel when you are in a Russian basement but eventually it does get there. #114.
Barbara
@? Martin:
It’s like Trump is intentionally picking the loser because he knows he can’t go toe to toe with someone capable of being more of an equal. Or maybe, Occam’s Razor, it’s just that Trump has disdain or contempt for other races and can’t conceive that China is more important than some mediocre white guy in Russia.
hovercraft
I guess we have another rogue “Mexican” judge, out there.
Judge Orders Trump To Sit For 7-Hour Deposition In Celebrity Chef Lawsuit
The federal judge presiding over a lawsuit Donald Trump brought against a celebrity chef who cancelled plans to open a restaurant in his new Washington, D.C. hotel has ordered the President-elect to sit for a deposition in New York during the first week of January.
D.C. Superior Court Judge Jennifer A. Di Toro ruled on Wednesday that Trump must sit for the deposition, which may last for up to seven hours, CNN reported.
While Trump’s lawyers previously agreed to the deposition, they later sought to limit its length and scope, citing “matters of very significant public importance” for which he is now responsible as President-elect.
Neither Trump’s attorney in the case, Rebecca Woods of Seyfarth Shaw LLP, nor his transition team responded to CNN’s requests for comment.
Chef José Andrés pulled out of plans to open a restaurant in the Trump International Hotel in D.C. after the then-candidate called Mexican immigrants “rapists” and drug dealers during the first speech of his campaign.
Trump filed a $10 million lawsuit against Andres for a breach of contract, arguing that the restaurateur’s alleged offense at his comments was “curious in light of the fact that Mr. Trump’s publicly shared views on immigration have remained consistent for many years.”
The President-elect is also suing celebrity chef Geoffrey Zakarian for pulling out of another deal to establish a restaurant at the hotel over the same comments. Buzzfeed released the video deposition from that lawsuit in September
SatanicPanic
@hovercraft: In practice how does coal make a comeback? Are they going start subsidizing it?
geg6
@Yarrow:
Graydon Carter is one of my heroes. For his Trump trolling over, lo, these many decades.
tybee
@NR:
i see you have your knee pads on again.
hovercraft
@Patricia Kayden:
DWS was there for one reason, and one reason only, to raise money. She did that well, but didn’t really do anything else.
Patricia Kayden
@Yarrow: I started reading Vanity Fair after they did a great article about Michael Jackson and love their political coverage. Good for Carter for figuring out how unserious Trump was way back when and never backing away from poking Trump.
Chris
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
As I keep saying, that moment when Rand Paul was asked whether people without health insurance should just be left to die in the street and audience members shouted “YES!!!” is pretty much modern conservatism distilled to its purest essence.
They want people to die, and they want them to be vulnerable and poor people.
Patricia Kayden
@hovercraft: Huge sigh because raising money well seems to have been useless on so many levels on November 8th. Sadly, that money didn’t go towards running Democratic challengers in all races, which is what we should be doing in every election.
Calouste
@Yarrow: Most of Europe is working very hard on renewable energy. They don’t want to be dependent on Russian hydrocarbons. Norway will stop selling fossil fuel cars in 2025, other countries are looking at doing the same, possibly a few years later. And it’s getting cheap as well, the Netherlands has just started building an off shore wind farm that will power 1 million homes and will cost just $300 million to build and will deliver electricity for less than 8 cents per kWh, 2/3 of the US average.
geg6
@SatanicPanic:
My sister just got solar here in bumfucked Western PA. Her entire cul de sac was agog.
? Martin
@hovercraft: And California just set new energy guidelines for computers and computer monitors.
That last sentence is key. We know that’s the case. Almost nobody sells CA emission cars and non-CA emission cars any longer. CA set the rules and the whole country changed. That’ll happen here as well (especially with so many of those manufacturers being CA companies to begin with). This is also a mechanism to slow the imports of cheap foreign goods because the higher standards will be more difficult for low-end foreign manufacturers to meet. This is why there are no Chinese cars sold in the US (despite China being the largest car manufacturing nation on earth) – they can’t meet our stringent fuel and emissions standards. Tariffs are arbitrary taxes on goods that don’t achieve any other goal than to raise revenue for the nation. A regulatory standard also raises the cost of goods, but does so with the added benefit of making the product category safer/cleaner/etc. If you are concerned about climate change, you should oppose tariffs and instead push hard for stringent environmental standards on goods sold in the US. Same effect on labor, better outcome on the environment.
gogol's wife
@geg6:
And Vanity Fair is still a darned enjoyable magazine.
NR
@Patricia Kayden: That and $3.50 will get you a latte at Starbucks in our electoral system.
NR
@tybee: What the fuck are you even talking about? You make zero sense.
Shalimar
@Patricia Kayden: DWS fought hard to make sure her Republican friends in districts neighboring hers didn’t have to face well-financed opposition. She also fought hard for the payday loan industry. Her fighting skills weren’t the problem imo, it was her loyalties.
hovercraft
@SatanicPanic:
In much the same way as the plan to repeal and replace Obamacare comes about. You talk about it incessantly, and then you point over there and say look, a SQUIRREL !
We’ve been awaiting the prosperity rought by trickle down economics for going on 40 years, the coal job creator has just begun to be warmed up, it’s going to take a while for it to get going. In the interim they can say that Obama is still causing them not to be able to bring the jobs back because he’s still wreaking havoc with that darn time machine of his.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Chris:
It’s quite a challenge for Dems to come up with a message more powerful than that level of mean and dumb.
? Martin
@SatanicPanic: Even subsidizing it won’t help. They’ll need to tax solar/wind. We’re closing in on a point where solar will be cheaper than coal, even if the cost of the coal itself drives to $0. We’ve already hit that point in CA and Arizona. Before Trump is out of office we’ll be at that point in pretty nearly every state.
Shalimar
@NR: Sanders still isn’t a Democrat, so no one gives a crap what he or his crowd thinks about the future direction of the DNC.
Miss Bianca
@Pogonip: Have they already replaced it? I see plenty of cute kittie photos but not that one.
Oh, and Team Perez for me. I like what I’ve seen of him. Nothing against Ellison but right at the moment, facing what we’re facing, I think he’s more valuable where he is.
@schrodinger’s cat: Hey, you’re not alone. I think Lefty Hectoring vastly overrated as a style.
trollhattan
Became acquainted with Perez over the last year and like him a lot–he’s smart, personable in front of a camera (anybody think that’s important these days?) and has an excellent resume. Don’t know Ellison well enough to have an informed opinion, so my “vote” goes with the known quantity.
Josie
@MomSense: That is the smartest comment in this entire thread. Voting rights is going to be where the rubber meets the road.
Miss Bianca
@Spanky (ex P-man): OK, just that excerpt was LOL funny. I’m gonna read the whole thing now.
Patricia Kayden
@Shalimar: And Senator Sanders’ argument that Democrats lost because we didn’t reach out to the poor oppressed White man enough completely irks me. The working class as a whole should be a target for Democratic messaging but no way should the White working class be prioritized and that’s what Sanders seems to be advocating.
Belafon
I think the head needs to be in there for at least a presidential cycle, full time. Otherwise, I like what people are saying about Perez.
StringOnAStick
@Yarrow: Germany figured out years ago that having to rely on Russian natural gas was not, uh, optimal. When we traveled through there in 2004 there were windmills everywhere and the roof of every barn, farmhouse, etc was covered in solar panels.
Arclite
Barak Obama for DNC chair.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Patricia Kayden:
The entire Berniebro thing was about prioritizing white/males’ demands. He was their avatar.
laura
I’m on Team Perez.
Ellison should stay in Congress if for no other reason than to continue opposing and resisting the incoming administration.
Perez hits multiple boxes, smart and strong as fck on worker issues, too good to waste, Hispanic and speaks simply and clearly about issues that have historically defined the party.
SatanicPanic
@? Martin: I wonder if they won’t try that. Or declare them nuisances. One of the right-wing memes I saw going around was a picture of a windmill that had fallen over with “GET RID OF THESE BEFORE THEY KILL SOMEONE” plastered on it. This was a windmill in Ocotillo, CA, so for those who don’t know the area, there aren’t a lot of someones out there wandering around under the windmills, but right-wingers aren’t known for their brains or truthfullness so this may get some traction.
Miss Bianca
@? Martin: I *heart* CA. I would seriously consider moving there myself if I had the money or prospects to do it. Alas, I’m probably more useful trying to keep CO purple.
NR
@Shalimar: Wait, I’m confused. I thought you guys blamed Bernie Sanders and “his crowd” for losing the White House. Now you’re saying they’re irrelevant. Which is it?
EJ
Aaaaand the second comment is already whining about Bernie.
Barbara
@hovercraft: If Bill Clinton could find the time to sit for a deposition so can Trump. That’s what happens when you are too shortsighted to think that other people might treat you the same shitty way you have treated them.
Lalophobia
@NR: He’s irrelevant going forward.
Barbara
@EJ: I have refrained from complaining about Sanders, but I do find some of the things he has been saying to be extremely alienating, and to the extent that Ellison will — or Sanders thinks he will — operate as Sanders’ proxy I would oppose Ellison, who I would otherwise be fine with. Sanders isn’t helping with his “both sides are horrible only I and people who agree with me are not horrible” rhetoric. He just very obviously gets high off of the equivalent of throwing bombs regardless of who gets hurt. I find that very unappealing just now.
Barbara
@Yarrow: They should also offer vegan cooking classes.
NR
@Lalophobia: Considering he’s part of the Senate Democratic caucus, Bernie Sanders is most certainly relevant.
And what about “his crowd?” Do you think they’re irrelevant too? Remember you’re talking about 13 million voters at a minimum. I don’t think you can afford to throw them away.
glory b
@NR: Bernie’s “Hillary is corrupt” type haranguing, long after he had a chance to win, got weaponized by Trump. Now that the race is over, he’s irrelevant, trying to push the party, but dropping his membership so, should it go wrong, he can maintain deniability, thereby maintaining what looks to be his sabbath gasbag position with the MSM.
All while still claiming to be a revolutionary.
See how that works?
? Martin
@SatanicPanic: Well, in Oklahoma they are doing that. The problem renewables raise for state utilities is that the utilities are often taking 30 year bonds in order to finance power plants. You built a new coal plant in 2000, it’ll need to operate through 2030 to pay off, but if a bunch of solar rooftops takes the demand for that plant away before 2030, they will need to raise rates in order to make up for the lost revenue.
That’s why California hasn’t built a fossil fuel power plant since 1980 or so. We aren’t trying to pay off any large capex on plants that we’ve known for decades we would be looking to phase out. Conservation was the mechanism we used to keep per capita consumption flat to down, and renewables was how we got ahead of the game. Now, there’s a lot of capex in solar/wind, but we expect them to still be in use in 2045, so no problem.
But states that have been approving fossil fuel plants, residential solar represents a real economic problem for them. You have the added complication of the duck curve – where residential solar drives conventional demand down in the middle of the day and then needs to RAPIDLY drive up conventional demand at/after dinner time when usage peaks but solar falls off. Power grids weren’t designed to handle rapid increases in power – it’s about 70% increase in 2 hours now in CA. That’s an additional challenge for conventional utilities, particularly if they’ve been in denial for the last few decades.
Now, Tesla’s Powerwall (and Powerpack for commercial use) is the likely solution to a lot of this problem. Put a 7kW battery in your house, charge it during the day when you aren’t likely home and/or are producing a surplus of solar and then draw that down in the evening taking the load spike off of the grid. Unfortunately, it’s expensive – about $0.15 per kWh which is more than grid power nearly everywhere, but that price will inevitably drop to a point where it’s at least cost-neutral.
One thing that California does to help with these efforts is they have a program which will provide loans to businesses that are installing solar/battery/etc. where the loan is paid off by continuing to pay your old rates for power (which presumably you’re offsetting with the solar). Depending on your situation, that loan may take a few years or 10 or 15 to pay off, but your out-of-pocket cost is zero – nothing up front, and you keep paying the same utility rates that you were paying before. Once the loan is paid off, you only pay for what you use. Very different attitude from most other states, but it is that approach which is turning into a kind of compound interest for CA, and a kind of compound liability for other states. The longer they resist, the more expensive it will be for them to come around, where by comparison the cheaper it will be for CA. Apple makes a statement about being carbon neutral in CA by generating all of their own power from solar, but their reason for doing it is that their future costs for electricity are effectively $0. That’s a big competitive advantage. The entire state of CA is taking the same attitude.
glory b
@NR: Will they all leave if we fail to genuflect and prostrate ourselves at the feet of St. Bernie? Do they demand fealty to his worship? Can they withstand criticism or are they fragile creatures who blow away like fairy dust at a discouraging word?
Shalimar
@NR: Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit? We’re talking about the DNC chair. I specifically said Bernie isn’t a Democrat, no one cares who he thinks the chair of a party he doesn’t belong to should be.
Mnemosyne
@Barbara:
Given how enmeshed Comrade Trump is in the international white supremacist movement, I would bet that this is a big part of it. The sucky part is that we’re all going to have to find out how wrong he was right alongside him.
NR
@glory b:
That’s a laugh, considering that any criticism of establishment Democrats like Hillary Clinton is immediately met here with reactions that range from bitter little snipes to shrieking, white-hot rage.
Like I said, Bernie and his crowd didn’t lose the entire country to the Republicans. You guys did.
You’d think with your spectacular record of failure recently, you’d be more willing to listen to people trying to show you the way forward. But I guess you’d rather just keep losing. Oh well, it’s your choice.
NR
@Shalimar: First, you said Bernie and “his crowd.” Plenty of “his crowd” are Democrats.
Second, you don’t get to have it both ways. Either Bernie and his crowd are politically relevant, which means they should have a say in who becomes DNC chair. Or, they are completely irrelevant, which means you don’t get to blame them for Hillary’s loss anymore.
So which is it?
Barbara
@? Martin: And yet, Texas has one of the highest wind power generation rates of any state. Texas is big and growing, so it can probably do the equivalent of walk and chew gum at the same time when it comes to energy policy. It is more diversified than Oklahoma, which really doesn’t have a whole lot going on outside of oil and natural gas. Minnesota is another wind power adopter — When you drive over the border from Minnesota to South Dakota it only takes about 20 minutes before you stop seeing wind generators.
glory b
@NR: You seem to think they are.
Nothing wrong with arguing forcefully for your position, you seem to be the one threatening that they will take their ball and go home. Make your points and be prepared to defend them, Berniacs. The go-to argument is “We won’t participate if we don’t get our way.” Stick around and fight.
Mnemosyne
@glory b:
Remember, don’t mention to NR that Bernie’s and Trump’s campaign managers worked together to elect Putin’s puppet in Ukraine. Poor bastard actually thinks that’s a coincidence and there’s no possible way that Tad “Our Brand Is Crisis” Devine could be corrupt despite Devine’s long history of amorality and self-dealing. The immaculate mantle of Bernie wiped out all of Devine’s past actions and made Devine pure.
Shalimar
@NR: Bernie pretended to be a Democrat during the primaries. I even voted for him. He was relevant to Democratic policies then. Much of his program was even in the party platform in an attempt to appease him.
He is not a Democrat now. If he has any Democratic supporters other than Ellison among the electors for party chair, then they matter. Bernie doesn’t.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t mind it being mentioned, but it has no relevance to the 2016 election. Despite how much you seem to think it does.
NR
@glory b:
You have it backwards. You guys are the ones saying “fuck off, we don’t need you.”
Shalimar
@NR: It is a fact that Devine has worked for Putin before 2016. Just because no connection has been established yet for 2016 doesn’t mean there isn’t one. The CIA is beginning to leak like a sieve about Russian ties to the election. Don’t be surprised if something about Devine comes out soon.
Shalimar
@NR: No. We’re saying “Fuck off, you’re not the Christ-like Savior you imagine yourself to be.”
glory b
@NR: Hey, if the Bernie folks are too butt hurt to stick around, we should go back to the drawing board, my thought is that we ramp up getting voters ID necessary to vote, and do what we can to help people vote in the states with the voting restriction laws.
Everyone loses an argument or a game or something sometimes. Nurse your wounds or wounded feelings for a while, and get back in the game.
If they’re too delicate to do that, then they should stay on the sidelines.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Of course, comrade. After all, there’s no point in looking at someone’s previous actions and associations when you’re looking at their actions. It’s not like knowing Devine’s prior history with Putin would tell us anything in an election filled with Russian connections. I’m sure that Devine’s Russian connections are totally innocent, unlike everyone else’s, solely because of his connection to Bernie. Bernie’s presence wipes all sins clean. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
tybee
@NR: @NR:
you should try listening to the drivel you puke out.
NR
@Shalimar:
It doesn’t mean there is one, either.
Do you think that just because someone worked for someone seven years ago, they automatically remain an undercover agent for their previous employer for the rest of their lives?
NR
@glory b:
The problem is, you guys are the ones who have been losing consistently, over and over, for the last six years.
You’d think that would make you consider a new approach. And yet you’re pushing away the people offering you one.
EJ
@glory b:
Bernie supporters aren’t going anywhere, though it is wearying dealing with this shit. So full of brag and swagger, when your loser candidate ran a loser campaign and lost to freakin’ Donald Trump.
NR
@Mnemosyne: So you think that just because someone works on contract for someone once, they remain an agent of that person for the rest of their lives.
You’re very strange.
Oh, and by the way, I’m still waiting on the links to those news stories you surely must have.
NR
@tybee: I’m not the one ranting about “knee pads” or some shit like that.
chopper
ellison seems to have more experience raising money and winning elections. i like perez’s politics more tho. seems like either would be pretty good, assuming ellison quits the house to do it.
tybee
@NR:
no, you’re too busy fellating bernie to make any sense at all.
NR
@tybee: Keep your sexual fantasies to yourself. No one wants to read about them.
chopper
@NR:
that’s the advantage of perennially being a back-bencher.
Miss Bianca
@NR:
Um…when your clients are dictators, then yeah…I expect that you probably stay in their Rolodexes. And you jump when they ask/tell you to jump. Mounting the tiger is one thing: dismounting is another matter. I’m not sure why you seem to have so much trouble with that concept. Oh, wait…yeah, I do.
tybee
@NR: if you don’t want to hear about it, you should stop your perversions with bernie. but you won’t. and i’ll keep pointing it out.
debbie
@Yarrow:
Along with his Spy Magazine co-founder Kurt Anderson.
NR
@Miss Bianca:
You “expect.” Well, your expectations are a long way from proof.
And that’s the one thing that none of you have been able to provide: Any proof that Devine was working for Putin in the 2016 election. It’s all just innuendo fueled by your hatred of Bernie Sanders. Well, that’s not enough, and it never will be.
NR
@tybee: The only person around here talking about “perversions” is you, bud. And no, I don’t want to hear about your sexual fantasies. I doubt anyone else does, either.
James E Powell
@liberal:
I liked Dean enough to go to Iowa & Arizona for him. His was an energetic and sorely needed voice at a time when the party’s leadership were competing to see who could love Bush the most.
But those days are gone. Forever. We need new people, new arguments.
Shomi
@NR:
Look the asshole is back for another beating. Talk about perversions, you must like gething slapped around like a dog. Fuck off.
EJ
What’s with this idea that Bernie supporters think he’s some kind of savior? Hillary’s crew tried to do the same thing with Obama in 2008. “Oh you’re just deluded children who worship a cult leader.” (I voted for Hillary in the 2008 primary but I still thought that aspect of her campaign was creepy).
We like Bernie and think he’s a smart person with a lot of good ideas. We’re well aware he’s not Jesus.
NR
@Shomi: You’re funny. But not for the reasons you think you are.
glory b
@EJ: If they’re not going anywhere, why does NR always claim that they are?
And he’s not the only one, almost every conversation with a Bernie supporter ends in, “You’d better not piss us off, we’ll stay away.
Anything that doesn’t go their way, that’s the threat. The vast majority of everything they wanted wa in the platform. Hillary was soooo concerned for their feelings (and as the candidate, she should have been). Bernie is is still slagging on her and on Obama and the idea that we do anything but what he wants and when he wants it.
So, if you’re not going away if you don’t get everything you want, and you agree other people (of color) might have priorities that they’d like to see addressed, you need to come get your cousin.
“So full of brag and swagger.” It’s called NOT GIVING UP, black people learned this a few hundred years ago, you should take notes.
Shomi
@NR:
Was that really the best you could come up with? Weaksauce dood. Just like everything else about you. Low-energy!
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Actually, it’s innuendo fueled by our hatred of Vladimir Putin.
Saying that Devine fooled Sanders into making his campaign all about Evil Democrats Keepin’ Him Down gives Bernie a way out. If Devine was just following Bernie’s orders and Bernie came up with his plan to divide the Democratic Party all on his lonesome, then Bernie can go fuck himself.
Your narrative is that Bernie Sanders consciously chose to try and destroy the Democratic Party. And you think that would make Democrats like him more?
NR
@glory b:
I “always” claim this, eh? How about some examples?
Mnemosyne
@glory b:
Co-signed. Though my bespectacled, middle-aged white lady ass looks kind of silly saying it. ?
ruckus
@schrodinger’s cat:
I think her tone OK. But because of the rethuglican party a milder tone is completely wasted. IOW you can’t tell someone they are a putz without actually telling them that in a way they might hear it.
Ramalama
@Botsplainer: thanks for that link. Great writing. And about food, too.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Actually, no. My narrative (which also happens to be objective fact) is that the Democratic party did a fine job of destroying itself before Bernie Sanders ever ran for president. Compare this to this.
But hey, if you want to blame all your problems on Bernie Sanders, that’s your call. I wonder how many more elections you’ll have to lose before you finally clue in to the fact that he’s not the source of your problems? I was going to say two or three, but you seem like a pretty slow learner, so it might be more. Oh well, I guess we’ll find out.
Mnemosyne
@EJ:
I think you’re coming in on, like, season 12 of this long-running series. We definitely have a small cadre here that refuses to accept that some of Bernie’s actions during the primary hurt Hillary in the general election. It turns out that telling people for several months that the Democratic Party is corrupt and is working against voters’ interests leads to voters deciding not to vote for Democrats.
Ramalama
@Yarrow: do you have a link to that tweet?
Mnemosyne
@NR:
And yet you still think that voter suppression and voter ID laws had nothing to do with that. Nope, it was all Bad Democrats Not Listening to St. Bernie.
glory b
@NR: #157 above:
“And what about “his crowd?” Do you think they’re irrelevant too? Remember you’re talking about 13 million voters at a minimum. I don’t think you can afford to throw them away.”
EJ
@glory b:
Your candidate fucked off into the woods for a month while Bernie stayed in Trump’s ass like government cheese. Hell, JILL STEIN had to step up and try to organize a recount.
“The vast majority of everything they wanted was in the platform. Hillary was soooo concerned for their feelings (and as the candidate, she should have been). ”
Oooh, sick burn. Yeah, we forced Hillary into momentarily acting like she gave a shit about poor people because of our “feelings.”
After which Bernie aggressively campaigned for her and the vast majority of us voted for her, because we’re no dummies and didn’t want Trump elected. That’s the reality you’re going to have to accept once you realize what a piss-poor candidate Hillary was.
Also, Bernie would have won.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Just keep blaming anything and everything for your problems except yourself and the people you support. After all, it’s been working out so well for you for the last six years, hasn’t it?
NR
@glory b: As should be obvious from that statement, I was talking about Sanders supporters being pushed out, not leaving on their own.
Shomi
@EJ:
How does the Jewish Socialist win again’t the White Supremacist? Please I want to know.
ruckus
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
They probably don’t like to be lied to, but they do like stories that sound like they are stomping on their enemies, of which Democrats are prime. IOW they believe bullshit before anything else.
Shomi
@NR:
What the fuck have you been doing outside this blog b*itching non stop for over a year? Newsflash moron, Mnem and everybody else that comments on this blog have very little influence on the outcomes of elections I hate to break it to you.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
Some people hate Hillary, some people hate Bernie. In the mean time, Putin and Trump run rampant.
EJ
@Shomi:
Same way the black “secret muslim” who was “born in Kenya” wins against the white war hero. Reaching out to as many people as possible and have an appealing message.
EJ
@Shomi:
Also Republicans have been calling their Dem opponents socialists as long as I’ve been alive. Remember all the “Saul Alinsky/community organizer” shit they flung at Obama? It’s not gonna make any difference that Bernie actually is one.
glory b
@EJ: Your guys were the ones saying Clinton needed to go away, she was a loser. Then, she went away and you criticized her for that too.
And I’m willing to bet some attorney told Jill Stein that she didn’t have standing (and a recount would probably be useless, an audit is what was needed), but what a way for Jill “I invest millions in funds that have holdings in the corporations I claim to hate” Stein to pick up some quick cash!
Yeah, Hillary doesn’t care about poor people, where’s your proof of that? Bernie supporters weren’t poor, they were largely college educated white folks. Bernie rallies were about as white as Trump rallies. By the way, college loan forgiveness and free college are about the most REGRESSIVE things you can do, poorer people who didn’t get the chance to go foot the bill for the middle and upper middle class people’s kids.
Hillary won the popular vote by almost 3 million now. Majority of campaign machines in Detroit malfunctioning. Almost as many votes as Obama. Piss poor candidate, okay.
Bernie would not have won, unless you think people of color were going to be excited by a candidate who told us we needed to take a back seat. All of those disaffected white folks who registered to vote for Trump could have registered as Dems and voted for Bernie. Why didn’t they?
And wow, you went from kinda reasonable to going off the rails pretty fast there.
NR
@glory b:
He never did that. These lies are tiresome.
tybee
@NR:
we understand that your personal saviour bernie christ got whipped badly by HRC in the primaries and you are still butt hurt but it’s time you got over it and faced the reality that bernie is a loser.
chopper
@EJ:
so, 8 years of incompetent government followed by a massive financial crisis, both blamed on the war hero’s party.
k, i’ll just order one of those right up.
people don’t realize how reflexively republican this country really is. 2008 was a perfect storm; everything sucked and the GOP was at fault. at the same time we put up the most talented politician in generations. and we still only got 53% of the vote. the GOP should have been wiped out in that election, and instead they bounced right back 2 years later.
EJ
@NR:
They never ever have an actual quote.
NR
@tybee: Well at least he didn’t lose to Donald Trump the way Hillary did.
NR
@chopper:
A big part of the reason they weren’t wiped out is because of how that “talented politician” acted in office.
Obama had approval ratings over 70% when he took office, the Republican party was disgraced and in tatters, and the country was hungry for strong leadership in a new direction. And instead of providing it, Obama made rehabilitating the GOP in the voters’ eyes his mission in life, co-opting and endorsing their policies, and bragging about how many of their ideas he’d included in his legislation.
What followed after was entirely predictable.
NR
@EJ: Hard to quote him saying something he didn’t say.
EJ
“By the way, college loan forgiveness and free college are about the most REGRESSIVE things you can do, poorer people who didn’t get the chance to go foot the bill for the middle and upper middle class people’s kids”
FFS poor people don’t “get the chance to go” to college because they can’t afford it. Free college changes that. Almost every route out of poverty today requires a college education.
artem1s
I am glad to see Perez throw his hat into the ring. He’s been great at his job and it’s a big one that touches a lot of areas that affect peoples lives. He seems very loyal and can speak knowledgeably about what the Dems have actually done and how they plan to build on it.
I am concerned about Ellison’s alignment with team tear-it-down. Last week’s DNC presentation of candidates in Columbus was packed to the gills with Berners kvetching about super delegates. Ellison didn’t take the bait and call for eliminating them. But I would have like to see him state unequivocally that the Democratic primaries need to be for Democrats only. Until he does that, I’m not inclined to believe he is going to be able to pull together enough of the core constituencies to mount any kind of 50 state strategy.
Perez is an insider. He will catch hell for that from the Berners. But minority voters will see him as an advocate and protector of Obama’s legacy. The Dems need to stand tall against the inevitable attack on that blah man’s ability to do the job. His administration and everything it accomplished needs to be a shield that the Dems throw in Idjit’s face every Team Know Nothing manufactures another crisis or screws up handling a natural disaster or bungles foreign policy.
I’d rather Perez’s loyalty to Obama and/or Clinton be the story than Team Idjit twitting all day about Ellison’s tax dodging. I just don’t see him being able to avoid that becoming the next ’email-gate’ for the media to wag the dog on for the next two years. Dems have to be focusing on the mid-terms and governors races and keeping entitlements intact, not whether they are going to eliminate super delegates and how much back taxes Ellison owes.
Lalophobia
@NR: So does that mean you don’t care about all the democrats (specifically black democrats) who were robbed of their vote?
NR
@Lalophobia: I’ve said over and over again that we should fight voter suppression because securing the right of all eligible Americans is the right thing to do, irrespective of the electoral fortunes of the Democratic party.
tybee
@NR:
he was worser: he lost to a girl. and you still can’t get over it.
chopper
@NR:
actually, the country was craving ‘bipartisanship’.
chopper
@NR:
no, he lost to the person who lost to donald trump.
Miss Bianca
@NR: Oh, little man, how I would *love* to have the mad skillz to provide you with the “prooooooof!” you bleat for! If only for the fun of watching you pivot so fast you’d give yourself whiplash, and start bleating about how you couldn’t trust my sources! I’d be making a *lot* more money if I were a Black Hat hacker of the caliber required for the job. I’d also probably be worried that the Russians were coming for me, but hey, there’s a price for everything, right? I mean, information wants to be free, after all.
For the record, I don’t necessarily believe that Tad Devine is guilty of anything but being a crappy human being who runs similarly crappy campaigns for Democrats who want to be President. I’m not judging the caliber of his work for the Ukrainians – he seems to have performed a little bit better for Yanukovich than he did for Mssrs. Dukakis, Gore, Kerry, and Sanders. But looking at the loser stink on all those previous campaigns, I consider it one more lapse in Bernie Sanders’s judgement that he decided to go with him.
NR
@tybee: I got over it a long time ago.
Also, “worser” isn’t a word.
NR
@chopper: Actually, the country was craving change. You know, the thing Obama ran on and made the centerpiece of his 2008 campaign. The people wanted change, they were promised change, they voted for change, and they got warmed-over Republican policy with a Democratic label. And people here still can’t figure out why electoral disaster followed.
NR
@chopper: And yet that’s still better than losing to Trump himself.
NR
@Miss Bianca: I’m not sure what your issue is. If you had proof of what you were saying, I would pay attention to you.
But you don’t. So I won’t.
chopper
@NR:
actually no, people were asking for ‘bipartisanship’. not that O was looking to be some sort of super-orthodox liberal, but he would have been constrained by it all anyways.
NR
@chopper: Right, I forgot. Obama’s 2008 campaign slogan was “Bipartisanship You Can Believe In.” I still remember how that rolled right off the tongue.
tybee
@NR: you’ll never get over it. you and bernie are losers and will always be losers.
worser losers than HRC ever was.
tybee
@NR: you need to remember that you have no proof of the fairy tales you vomit forth as fact.
you’ll never get over bernie getting whipped by a girl. and it shows with every post you make.
NR
@tybee:
You wouldn’t know ‘proof’ if it bit you in the ass, Skippy.
But your posts are ‘worser’ than anyone else’s here, I’ll give you that. Most other commenters here are at least entertaining. You don’t even have that going for you.
tybee
@NR:
and you’re a sad loser along with your christ figure bernie.
as for proof, you don’t have any at all. and you know it. and so do we. :)
NR
@tybee: The only thing you know is how to make yourself look like an idiot. Which you’re doing an admirable job of. Toodles.
tybee
@NR: nah, you’ll be back with more lies. i know your type: loser.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
So Bernie Dumbledore’s Freebus Collegius Magick Spell I mean Bill included room, board and a living stipend? For what time and age limits? Would it have covered a chronically unemployed thirty-five year old like Bernie was? It was even more generous than I thought, and would’ve been even more unpopular once grown up tax-payers started looking at it.
goblue72
Tom Perez has never run for or held elected office. He once tried to run for AG of Maryland, but was booted off the ballot by the courts because he lacked the minimum number of years of legal experience required under Maryland law. He has never even run for county dogcatcher.
So no, I don’t want a guy with zero electoral experience running the organization whose primary job is getting Democrats elected to office. Tom Perez is the DNC establishment firing one across the bow because the hoi polloi are starting to recognize that the Emperor has no clothes.
goblue72
@NR: People claiming Sanders was somehow a Putin puppet or influenced by Putin or other such nonsense are categorically insane.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
So you’ve got your Malcolm costume on today, Dwight? Keepin’ it way fuckin’ real and all? “Right on!” Man.
Ian
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
This past summer I spent 2 weeks with my right-wing (but not far right) family in Virginia. We were arguing politics, and she kept claiming CNN was a liberal network. So we turned the damn thing on and who do you know, Reince Priebus is on. I called him out on every damn lie he said during that interview and then googled it to my family. He lied about every thing he said. Each one of them still voted for Trump.
EJ
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
“Bernie Dumbledore’s Freebus Collegius Magick Spell” what’s with the weird, creepy baby talk? We’re all adults here, I presume.
chopper
@NR:
yes, O’s choice of slogan somehow determined what people in America wanted in politics.
if only O had chosen “socialism for all” as his slogan we’d have been in a literal worker’s paradise in 2009, amirite?
Miss Bianca
@NR:What, ‘proof’ that Tad Devine is a crappy human being who runs crappy campaigns, and Bernie Sanders was a fool for putting him in charge of *his* campaign, regardless of whatever his connections to foreign dictators might be? Accordng to you, the fact that Hillary Clinton lost to Donald trump is ipso facto evidence that she was a terrible candidate. Seeing that Bernie Sanders managed to lose by millions of votes to the terrible candidate who lost to Donald Trump, what more ‘proof’ do you require?
As BBrecht was so fond of noting, “the proof of the pudding is in the eating.”
NR
@goblue72: Pretty much, yep.
NR
@chopper:
No, you fool, his campaign slogan stated what his campaign was about. Change. Which is what people were voting for when they voted for him.
NR
@Miss Bianca:
No, proof for the idea that Devine is some kind of Russian agent. But if you’re backing off from that claim, there’s no need to argue that point further.