You know who I wouldn’t want to trade jobs with right now? DNC chair Tom Perez. The first big test of his leadership is apparently gonna be how successfully he channels the Bern. Will he succeed? Does it make sense to pursue this strategy out of the gate? Fuckifino.
Perez and Sanders are doing a roadshow in red and purple states to gin up enthusiasm for rebuilding the party and taking on Trump. It’s officially called the “Come Together and Fight Back” tour. There’s an account of the first rally in Maine in the Portland Herald Press. A couple of quotes:
Perez: “The mission of the new DNC is not simply to elect the president of the United States. It is to elect Democrats from the school board to the Senate.”
Sanders: “Our job is to radically transform the Democratic Party . . . into a 50-state party and a party that does not continue to ignore half of the states in our country. Our job is to create a democratic party, a grassroots party where decisions are made up from the bottom on up, not from the top on down.”
As a neoliberal shill in the pocket of Big Democrat, I am immune to Sanders’ appeal. But I’m not the roadshow’s intended audience. The Democrats don’t have to coddle me to ensure I turn up to vote, but the Sandersites are more loosely affiliated. I’m trying to temper my reaction to the aspects of the roadshow I find irritating accordingly.
In that spirit, I will note that we’ve complained for years about the party’s too-narrow focus on federal offices (though we’ve quibbled over what the DNC’s proper role is in state party affairs). I agree with what Perez says above, and Sanders’ statement basically amounts to the same thing, with extra finger-wagging and pointing.
I’m going to trust that Perez knows what he’s doing and have faith that this roadshow is just the opening salvo, with different forms of outreach targeting women, minorities, etc., and robust voter suppression countermeasures to follow. Because dog knows, we can’t afford to fuck this up by fighting the last war.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The Democrats should make it a plank in their platform to fully fund a cure for being a self-important asshole.
(this should be a fun thread– think I’ll go walk the dog while NR and dm tell us all how Bernie is the Way, the Hope and the Light)
rikyrah
PHUCK going around with Wilmer.
He needs to go around with Maxine Waters. I would buy a ticket to see her, if only to hear her rant about Dolt45
TenguPhule
Amen.
Now if we could only have faith in actually having untampered elections next year.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@rikyrah: I’ve been saying it’s up to Ellison, Warren and Wyden to sit Wilmer down and explain to him that he’s supposed to piss outside the tent. I like your idea better.
Spanky
Well … yeah. I gotta reluctantly agree (after you pointed it out) that they’re basically saying the same thing. But of course my imagination* added the finger-wagging and accusatory tone, which at this point makes me immediately push back against whatever he’s saying.
(* – Doesn’t take much imagining at all.)
TenguPhule
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t think “Death is the cure” would be a particularly popular platform.
But maybe that’s just me.
What do I know, the Republicans ran on “Kill Blacky and Browny and Mr. Muslim” and look where they are now.
rikyrah
I think this is too funny :)
Goku
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I can’t wait to see TenguPhule go at them. As I’m sure TenguPhule is as well
Chyron HR
Translation:
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: TBH, I posted it with trepidation. But damn it, I’m a Democrat, as are 99% of the readers here, and discussing how to move forward as Democrats shouldn’t be off limits because some assholes might show up to harangue us. I’m trying to keep an open mind about Sanders’ role and his utility to the party, and I think Perez’s strategy is fair game for discussion.
ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Pissing outside the tent would be great, I’d just be glad if he’d stop asking us to hold it for him and then telling us to aim for our own shoes.
TenguPhule
@Goku: This is the kinder, gentler upgraded version of me.
Mnemosyne
I think the whole Bernie phenomenon is very regional, more so than I think even the DNC realizes. Here in Los Angeles County, a bunch of Berniacs running for the Democratic nomination for local offices just got their asses kicked, big time, but they’re doing better in Northern California and the rest of the PNW.
Goku
@TenguPhule: Aw, but I want to see you tell N(R) drink bleach or something
A Ghost to Most
Damn, the wilmerites aren’t even here yet, and they’ve already hijacked it.
At least Perez and Wilmer are out there, trying to rally the troops. That’s different.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: Sanders was and still is popular here in Hawaii. To be fair, his platform appeals to a lot of people struggling out here. Our cost of living in comparison to the annual average income is appalling. And Trump’s attempt to kill our tourism industry is going to make things even worse.
So yes, he is an asset. Just one that needs to be closely monitored and kept in line at all times.
Thru the Looking Glass...
@TenguPhule: TenguPhule 2.0?
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: His appeal with people of color seems to be predominantly with college kids, so LA seems like a tougher crowd for him than SF and the PNW. I wonder how he does in Oakland.
TenguPhule
@Goku: I have been reliably informed that such violent imagery disturbs the beautiful minds of other commentors and should be curtailed for the common good.
Tim C.
I’d much rather reach out to the Sanders supporters who basically and mostly want the same things I want than focusing on racist rural mo-rons. I think Bernis numbers and pkans didn’t add up and he went far too negative, but his supporters are part of my broad coalition and I’m part of their coalition. They can say their piece too and then we go out and fight together. There’s a reason it’s called the rebel ALLIANCE.
TenguPhule
@Thru the Looking Glass…: 3.1X
Hopefully with less BSOD then the last version.
Cacti
Okay, I’m lost.
What’s the explanation for “Wilmer”?
O. Felix Culpa
I’m with rikyrah: Give me Maxine Waters.
We get plenty of Berniac self-righteous butthurt in our county Democratic Party meetings. They’re genuinely surprised to find out that some of us activists actually LIKED and ENTHUSIASTICALLY SUPPORTED Hillary. I’m not a fan of the Perez/Sanders travelling circus, but as a member of several special interest groups (e.g. not straight white male), I suppose I’m not their target audience either.
? Martin
@TenguPhule: I think he was surprisingly popular with people that are genuinely economically anxious – even those that voted for Trump. If that’s the cohort the Dems need to reach, then I think it makes sense to haul Bernie along. I know he’s not a Dem, and I agree that it’s really weird to make him so prominent in the strategy, but winning forgives many sins.
lamh36
I posted in one of the night’s thread a twitter TL from someone who’s feeling about this entire tour I totally agree with, I’ll leave that here instead of adding more commentary…I’ll just say this tour better get the results Perez & DNC wants but it’s already alienating and pissing off a very loyal bloc of Dem voters…some might say THE MOST LOYAL…
Her entire twitter TL rant is worth a read.
https://twitter.com/ljoywilliams/status/854497321354240002
Thru the Looking Glass...
@TenguPhule: But more fibre & added electrolytes?
SatanicPanic
@Tim C.: I reluctantly agree that you’re right, so I try to be diplomatic about Bernie IRL. But we need somewhere to vent because man do I find the guy and his followers annoying.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
For being the “working class” candidate, working class people of color don’t seem very impressed with him at all.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
I swear this is becoming a running gag on Balloon Juice at this point.
O. Felix Culpa
@O. Felix Culpa: FYWP won’t let me edit, but I’ll add that I support being a TEAM in resistance to the Dolt45 Dark Forces. The WilmerFolk have a hard time getting the alliance piece, but we soldier on more or less together.
agorabum
Seems like it would help if Bernie wore the Democratic badge loud and proud, instead of putting his “independent” shirt back on.
hellslittlestangel
Absolutely. That’s the strategy Republicans used to get where they are today. (In power, that is, not in the Enchanted Kingdom of Ignorant Motherfuckers.)
TenguPhule
@? Martin:
Yep. When Bernie lost, we all switched to Hillary at the final election. We were hopeful, not stupid.
In the primaries, we get no love as a reliable and small blue state. So its not a surprise that we go for the candidates that appeal to our concerns first.
Emma
Bet… $50 to anybody’s favorite charity that Wilmer will screw over the Democrats in less than a year.
TenguPhule
@O. Felix Culpa: “The prospect of an imminent hanging concentrates the mind wonderfully.”
geg6
I can’t think of anything that will make me less enthusiastic about doing my duty to my party than highlighting Bernie.
And if I and people like me aren’t out there doing the real work of getting people elected, then Dems aren’t going to get elected. And the more they highlight him, the less I’m inclined to keep up the work I’ve been doing for forty years for the party. Fuck him and fuck his bros. I want as much to do with them as I do with the fucking male white working class. Which would be nothing. At all. Ever.
TenguPhule
@Thru the Looking Glass…: And a day’s supply of Vitamin C.
Cacti
@Emma:
Sucker bet.
But seriously, what the hell does “Wilmer” come from?
Immanentize
@TenguPhule: your eliminationist rhetoric is making me so friggin weary.
TenguPhule
@geg6:
Lie back, close your eyes and think of New England.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: Too much of the old leftist trope that if you fix inequality you can fix racism. I get why some young kids who haven’t been out in the world will hope this can work (because I was once one of those kids), but I am officially old enough to call this wishful thinking.
TenguPhule
@Immanentize: Your inability to spot the joke is noted and pitied.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: Its putting the cart before the horse. You can’t fix inequality until you fix racism, because that’s one of the causes of inequality.
geg6
@lamh36:
I’m right there with her. I wrote Perez an email saying I’m not giving a penny or doing anything else as long as he keeps lionizing someone who is not only NOT A DEMOCRAT but someone who actively demonizes Democrats. Fuck him. How about appealing to women and people of color? You know, the people that actually do all the hard work of the party and actually show up at the voting booth? Fuck this shit.
daveNYC
Not really seeing the rage here. Sanders is saying the same thing as Perez, just with 75% more rabble rabble.
And while ‘ignore half the states in the country’ is hyperbole, considering the state of the governorships and the state legislatures, it’s not entirely inaccurate.
No small part of politics is marketing. Both Sanders and Perez on the road with Sanders doing the ‘I’m mad as hell and I’m not gonna take it any more’ has potential with Perez’s more adult focus as a follow up.
Hell, these two should rampage through every congressional district that isn’t bluer than blue. And fucking bring up some locals running for dog catcher or some shit.
Shit is maximally fucked until 2018,but we need to get one part of the legislature back by then and this is a good approach.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
Tell that to Captain class reductionist of Burlington.
glory b
@rikyrah: I heard on All In yesterday that the crowd at the Maine gathering booed Tom Perez and cheered Sanders.
I don’t know if an all white crowd booing the Afro-Latino guy on stage is a good look for unity.
TenguPhule
@Cacti: Its a Balloonjuice in-joke about how mentioning Sanders here attracts flying poo troll monkeys to make off the wall comments about his purity pureness and how Hillary is evil and corrupt for having money. So the commenters created the nickname instead.
Cacti
@daveNYC:
Wasn’t it Bernie who was saying southern state primaries shouldn’t really count because of reasons?
geg6
@TenguPhule:
Fuck New England. But not by me, thank you very much.
Immanentize
@TenguPhule: painful death is a big fucking joke? Yes I missed the joke. Please explain it to me. I believe in gaining wisdom from the education of my betters
Emerald
OK, I do trust Perez, but I wonder if this isn’t his way of exposing Wilmer’s less attractive tendencies for all to see. And he still won’t join the party.
Most Wilmer voters are reasonable people and good Democrats, so I suppose this tour will be helpful for those folks. But we need to weed the garden of the cultists, imho. I’d rather have them pissing on us from outside than inside.
But it rather looks to me like the whole thing is another boost for Wilmer’s ego.
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule: I know, that’s why I was like, yeah I’ll take a pass on Bernie. I also might just be in that demographic that looks at him and thinks- chill out dad.
TenguPhule
@Cacti: Actually it was a fair point that primaries in states that are never going to vote Democratic in the general really do have an oversize influence on picking the primary candidate. It was the rules, but he did have a point.
SFAW
@TenguPhule:
Either trying to lull us into a false sense of security, or “you” are now a bot. If the latter: how are things in Moskva, tovarishch?
tomtofa
Sanders is, by far, the most popular politician in the US. Why would Perez not take advantage of that? Who else would he bring along? There isn’t another pol who would help the case at the moment, for the majority of voters.
Goku
@glory b: Why you gotta bring race into it! Identity politics! This is why Trump won. Perez is a shill!1!1!1
/Foams at mouth
/s for safety
Kathleen
@lamh36: I saw on Twitter where Bernie said Ossoff was aligned with John Lewis, who was “establishment”. Bernie Sanders is not fit to utter John Lewis’ name.
geg6
@glory b:
This is exactly why this is a losing strategy. Perez better figure this out pretty soon. I am totally serious about saying fuck it all and just stopping all my donations and election work. Forty years of busing my ass for my party and this is the shit I have to witness.
Bill
Man, the dislike for Sanders around here is baffling. I get that his shtick isn’t for everyone, but as a member of the far left wing of the party I was really happy to see someone from my camp gain traction and have a voice in the last election cycle. Shouldn’t the party be happy to see people like me feeling more included? As a group Democrats need to realize that a broad, strong coalition is a good thing. Both sides of the party would do well to build a bridge to the other so as to helps us start winning state legislatures on up to the White House.
Brachiator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I didn’t vote for Sanders in the primary, and am not a supporter. But I have a basic question. Some Youtube snippets suggest that he is popular and connecting with voters. Is this the case or not?
If Sanders is indeed popular, the Democrats need to find a way to channel or deflect it. Voters don’t care about lingering resentments about the primaries or even whether or not Bernie is a true Democrat.
ETA: What Bill, above, said.
Corner Stone
Fucking Cole is trying to kill me in his twit feed.
TenguPhule
@Immanentize: First, its death, not painful death.
Second, its a reference to this quote:
Having to explain the joke really kills the fun.
Felonius Monk
@Cacti: Heh. A rose by any other name is still a rose, it just doesn’t attract so many rodents. Wilmer, however, is no rose, but we still don’t want him attracting rodents and other assorted excreters.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
So we need a broad, 50-state strategy except for when we don’t.
Got it.
Yarrow
Saw this yesterday.
Click through for the rest of the thread.
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
Yes, for certain voters. Again, populist message is attractive to people in need and that are not racist assholes.
Immanentize
@Bill: Sanders doesn’t sound like the car left of any party to people of color and other marginalized people. He sounds like the cranky old white guy from white guy Vermont that he is with some 1960’s Foucault thrown in as chum.
Cacti
@Bill:
Feeling included is nice.
Poisoning the well is a lot less nice.
Every time Wilmer was on the campaign trail with Hillary when he finally got around to it, he looked and sounded like he had an inflamed prostate.
Frankensteinbeck
That does not sound like the same message to me. It sounds like Sanders is still encouraging his followers to think that the real enemy is the Democratic Party that cheated them out of the nomination and is owned by Big Business.
@TenguPhule:
It’s also a giant god damn insult to minorities, doubled as we watch a white supremacist president in action.
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule: But that’s also their only way of influencing who becomes president since their votes are irrelevant in the general.
Emerald
@TenguPhule:
Heh. But Bernie has money too. He just doesn’t want his fans to know it. Hence, he’ll release his tax returns about the same time Mango Mussolini voluntarily and happily releases his.
Goku
@Kathleen: What the fuck is wrong with this guy? John Lewis was on the front lines while Old Has-Been Hippy #3 was writing rape porn in a commune where everyone hated him for being a lazy asshole.
Does he want to destroy a nascent resistance movement? How is that socialist? It’s not good to wish ill on people, but I hope he dies soon
p.a.
Well Boinie, you don’t have to join the Democratic Party, but until you show your coattails can actually elect Democrats at any farking level you’re just one Senate vote who will be with us anyway, so issue your press releases from the Senate Independents (where does the ‘ go, before or after the s?) closet, and leave business to the adults.
efgoldman
@rikyrah:
Maxine is wonderful, but also scary in the states that the tour is covering (shouty black person, ya’ know)
But there are dozens of youngish, attractive, charismatic Dems in congress that Perez can take with him, in relays, if need be.
Goku
@TenguPhule: Because everyone has read Heinlein
geg6
@tomtofa:
I sure hope all those people that just love Bernie are ready to do all the work and donating that those of us who are completely alienated by Bernie do. Because I’m not the only one I know who is not okay with this. Among the women and people of color who I have worked with over the years on party matters here, there are no Bernie fans. If we drop out due to being completely alienated by Bernie and his groupies, no Democrat will ever get elected to anything in this part of Western PA again. Because THERE ARE NO BROS WHO ARE DOING THIS TYPE OF WORK HERE. ZERO. ZILCH. They are too lazy and privileged to do it. All they want to do is show up when the press is around, boss everyone else around without having a clue by four and then bitch about it all until the next election. You think the Dems have been losing here the last few elections? You ain’t seen nothing yet.
Chyron HR
@Brachiator:
Except for the ones who stayed home or voted 3rd party out of spite because the Whore beat the Chosen One, obviously.
ruemara
@Emma: You’d win that 50 because Bernie just dumped on Ossof as not being progressive. He’s a helpful motherfucker.
Any all of y’all needing to kumbayaya with Wilmerites, go right ahead. I’m not with them. I’m just walking the same way. They decided people like me were a problem to their economic-based revolution. And they can’t fucking shutup or apologize.
@Cacti: Reasons = blacks, who I don’t care about much except as an academic concept
Immanentize
@TenguPhule: but you jumped from someone suggesting a “cure” to “execution and death”. It’s who you are.
Yarrow
@geg6:
YES! This! As usual the women people of color who are the backbone of the party are taken for granted while they head off in search of the elusive white (male) working class vote. Fuck that shit.
TenguPhule
@Cacti: The goal in 2016 was to maximize voters in enough states with the electoral votes to win. This meant a focus on battleground states and how to win the general election votes there. The 50 state strategy was for the other offices which are elected on a state by state basis and eventually put them all into play for presidential elections. But eventually was not now.
Cacti
@Chyron HR:
The orange anus won white millennials 48-43 in the general.
Betty Cracker
@Bill: I’m glad you feel more included — sincerely.
The Moar You Know
@TenguPhule: I for one am going to have a hard time getting through my day without reading about how some GOPer asshole should be sodomized with a defective chainsaw.
But sacrifices must be made, I suppose.
Yarrow
@tomtofa:
Do you have polling data to back up your statement?
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
There’s something really wrong with him.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
When I look and listen to that gravel-voiced, rumpled, incompetent, snarling, lying piece of fucking shit (did I mention incompetent? I meant to say incompetent) egomaniac from Brooklyn by way of Vermont, I can’t help but wonder where in hell are Tonya Harding and Jeff Gillooly when you need them and a pry bar?
lamh36
Is it too much to ask that Bernie NOT shit over legit Dem candidates who are trying to win and have a real chance of winning in places like GA…
The bit I posted in the last thread where when asked about Osoff…and Bernie rather than giving a vague non shiitty answer on Osoff was saying “he is not sure if Osoff is a progressive”…as if the progressive candidate of bernie’s dreams had ANY darn chance of winning that district.
Oh and let’s not forget his “supporters” going after Osoff’s endorsement by John Lewis as some sort of bad thing….
TenguPhule
@Goku: The general idea has actually come up again and again in several other forms of media & popular culture. What else do you think the Darwin Awards are?
ruemara
@Bill: Real question. How are you not represented in the Democratic Party? How are you not included? You’re a white male, over 40, I presume? Please, if you don’t mind, let me know how you are not a visible presence in the Democratic Party.
Frankensteinbeck
@Yarrow:
I know there was a recent poll where Sanders got #1, but that was a poll from those politicians’ home states. So, Bernie is SUPER popular in Vermont.
Bill
@Immanentize:
I get this. I really do. But I’m not saying Democrats shouldn’t also speak directly and meaningfully to people of color. That is the core of the party and has been for ages. All I’m saying is that there’s enough room in the tent for all of us.
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
Defective chainsaws don’t have working blades. You really want a working one when inserting.
SarahT
Bernie can shove his wagging finger up his ass and fuck right off. I like Tom Perez, but have zero patience for the Bro Show.
Ian
@TenguPhule:
It’s not our minds being disturbed by the violent imagery as much as it is concern for your own.
Also, violent speech is proven to encourage violent acts. Its a slope we shouldn’t consider sliding on.
lamh36
Oh and those Southern states may not go for the Dem in the general elections, but they do still have the largest numbers of the most loyal Dem voters don’t they…dismissing them cause of the general is bullshit…as loyal voters they deserve as much say in who the Dem nominee is as fuqn’ Vermont….
Iowa Old Lady
Holy shit. Did MSNBC really dump Joy Reid and Melissa Perry?
ETA: Cole’s twitter feed says that but I can’t find confirmation
Frankensteinbeck
@Bill:
Sanders spent one Hell of a lot of effort convincing young idealists in 2016 that this isn’t true.
tomtofa
@geg6:
I’m not a Sanders fan. He’s a simplistic one-note, and not especially my note.
But his popularity goes wider and deeper than most here want to acknowledge. Check the recent Harris-Harvard and Fox polls. If we don’t want him to be the face of the Democrats, we need to find out how to put someone else there.
Chet Murthy
@SatanicPanic: They say the same thing about sexism/misogyny, eh? And sadly, the feminists have to set ’em straight with a smack upside the head, every few years.
TenguPhule
@Immanentize: So far you’ve jumped from death in the abstract to “painful death”. Then when I explain the reference you pounce on the “execution” portion of the quote and ignore the entire context of the rest of it.
Are you David Brooks mistaking me for Hillary Clinton?
Goku
@tomtofa: Don’t know about the other one, but Fox polls? Pull the other one. Any others? Links?
Lizzy L
@ruemara: With friendly comments like that coming from our socialist ally, we barely need Republicans. Sanders should just STFU about Ossoff, except to express support. He’s being the ultimate purity pony and we have a 50 state strategy to devise and execute. Not being helpful, shouty white-haired man.
daveNYC
@geg6: Fourty years of ass busting and all you have to show for it is Republican control of all three branches of the government. That could provoke some soul searching.
Politics:
1) gain power
2) implement policy
Never forget that. Purity policing can work both ways.
@Cacti: You’re combining different scenarios. The specific quote is concerning ignoring state and local level races. That’s bad. The statement you threw out there is about ignoring the results of state primaries based on how the stated will get in the general, which is also bad. They’re both, at best, not good. But they are covering different scenarios.
dmsilev
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I wouldn’t use the word ‘wrong’. I’d use ‘myopic’. The only thing that matters to him are the economic issues. Gender and race issues, to name two, are clearly far far lower in priority for the Senator from Vermont.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TenguPhule: They already have less weight(delegate wise) than states that voted blue in the previous election, should we just disenfranchise those voters(who are predominantly POC)?
randy khan
@TenguPhule:
In theory, perhaps that’s a fair way to think of his campaign’s view of the southern states, but in practice it was a pretty good example of his tone-deafness as to PoC in the Democratic coalition because HRC’s wins in those states were largely built on huge majorities among black voters. In my view, that’s his Achilles heel, and he never seems to figure it out.
SatanicPanic
@Bill: No, you’re right. And honestly I am willing to swallow Bernie’s BS for the greater good. I don’t think he’s going to do that much damage and he’s done some good in pulling the party to the left. His ignorance of race issues is sadly not all that unusual for old white politicians. We’re early in the running for 2020 and I imagine some shiny new person will come along to take his place. Gillibrand, Harris or some pol to be named later.
ruemara
@lamh36: And why won’t these armchair revolutionaries get their woke asses to the south and help us with voting access? They’ll show up to smile in black & latino brooklyn from gentrified-Sty and rally for a man, but not for our rights and our access to the voting machines that WOULD HAVE GIVEN US THE WIN. The bullshit of this cult and the temerity to call their own lack of knowledge suppression. He makes me so mad. He uses ignorance of facts & process as well as Trump, much for the same reasons.
D58826
JUst a few random thoughts
1. Fortunately Keith O has Der Fuhrer to pick on now that Bill-O is gone.
2. Chaffez is retiring to spend more time with his family. Just a bit of wild eyed speculation here but is he caught up in Russia-gate? Given his obsession with everything Hillary, his committee would be a natural way to ‘launder’ derogatory information supplied by Wikileaks or FSB. While left leaning folks would question the information as ‘partisan’ it would have a Russian link to it.
3. I truly wish Bernie would go away. I don’t think he is trying to reform the democratic party, I think he is try to take it over and rename it the Sanders Party of America. So now he finds that Jon Ossoff isn’t ‘progressive enough to be granted the Sanders Purity Pony Award. First of all a sanders progressive is not going to stand a chance in deep red Ga. And second. from what I’ve read, Bernie hasn’t been very successful in getting his purity pony candidates/ issues elected.
4. And last be not least we have our Vice President. At this point I think it is better for the country if Der Fuhrer remains as POTUS. At least by this time pretty much every one knows he is nuts and not to take anything he says seriously. Pence on the other hand is supposed to be the serious, sensible, albeit very conservative, one. So what to make of his standing on the DMZ and saying he wants the ‘people on the other side to see our resolve in his face’. There are probably a number of NK army privates who will suffer PTSD for the rest of their lives after absorbing the full weight of the ‘Pence stare’. This is just downright nuts.
SatanicPanic
@daveNYC:
This is really assholish even for Balloon Juice. And it’s almost like you ignored some pretty important things in those forty years. Like the ACA. Jerk.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Iowa Old Lady: not exactly
Perry left last year because she didn’t like her show being pre-empted by election coverage. If she just waited, the show would have resumed. Joy used to host a mid day show that was cancelled, but she now host a very successful weekend show and fills in on primetime shows.
Mary G
@rikyrah: I would pay big money to see Auntie Maxine tell Wilmer where to get off. I think the refusal to release tax returns might be for the same reason Twitler won’t; that new lake house could have been paid for by RT or another of Putin’s fronts.
efgoldman
@Tim C.:
I suppose the Wilmerbots/bros are slightly more likely to vote for Democrats than the racist fucks are to come over. For some very small value of “slightly.”
But the fact remains, the True Believers still don’t know shit about elections or politics. And Wilmer continues to validate their bullshit.
TenguPhule
@lamh36:
And the problem is the electoral college nullifies their votes in the general. Which was sort of the point. Battleground state voters have an oversized influence on who actually gets elected. Unfortunately under the current system their wants and needs have to prioritized by anyone who wanted to actually win in the general. As long as we have the electoral college, that equation isn’t going to change and there is the perverse incentive to marginalize the Southern Democratic vote in order to win the general.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@TenguPhule:
The problem with the Sanders platform is that it is genuinely stupid. “Free college” is in the same category as “free pizza and beer in the lunchroom cafeteria” for high school seniors, but there are a lot of economic and psychological reasons why that is a bad idea.
And while Medicare for all is a lovely utopian sentiment, it doesn’t begin to address the overnight collapse of 30% of the blue chip side of the investments of literally every public and private pension, mutual fund, 401K, annuity, etc, along with 1,000,000 jobs in the insurance market, most of which are held by modest income workers. The economic repercussions would reverberate like the Great Depression on steroids, and we’d literally look at starving retirees on television on a nightly basis.
That is the “vision” of the Bern, such as it is, and why I despise him and his sycophants so – they never thought through those ramifications. Of course, as we know, thinking through ramifications, consequences and likely problems are the hallmarks of filthy neocorporate liberals on their neverending quest to crush those visionaries who want to remake society in an egalitarian way.
Corner Stone
@Iowa Old Lady: I can’t find anything either and her twit feed says nothing. That’s why I said Cole’s feed was trying to kill me.
The “sign off” he links to is from 2015.
BUT, I would not put it past those MSNBC motherfuckers at this point.
Kathleen
@Goku: He’s a lazy, arrogant, narcissistic grifter who cares only about himself. I think he’s toxic and an enemy. Before Sessions’ confirmation hearing he made the comment that he was willing to hear what “Jeff” has to say and that they were friends. Then he makes a crack about John Lewis being part of the “establishment”. I don’t want him in the party and I don’t want his cult followers. Reasonable people who liked him and supported him early on but were open to voting for Hillary Clinton are not his cult followers. They’re reasonable people and most of these people consider themselves Democrats and don’t feel the compulsion to destroy the party. If Dems really think Wilmer or his rabid cult followers should have a future in the party I will withdraw my puny monthly donation.
A friend of mine is running for City Council (I’m also a friend of his mother). He was Wilmer supporter and has enlisted a Wilmer staffer to run his campaign. I went to the kickoff (because friends of his mom) and met up with a Y friend I hadn’t seen in years. We were having a nice conversation until she launched into the “you know Wilmer would have beat Trump” and I became agitated and expressed my opinion forcefully. I didn’t see her the rest of the evening.
Villago Delenda Est
So Bernie’s plan is to radically transform the Democratic Party (of which he is not a member) into a party of rhetoric with no wonk chops, just like Bernie?
Bernie, I invite you most cordially to go DIAF.
Your friend, VDE.
Wjs
So Bernie shared his campaign’s database of donors with Tom Perez’s newly created tech group and we’re going to build a fundraising apparatus that supports teams in every congressional district?
In February the answer was no. I hope it changes and soon. And I hope Sanders doesn’t bring his Russian-affiliated advisors with him into this magical tent they’re building.
joel hanes
@Betty Cracker:
We need enough comity to act together to defeat the common foe.
“Bro” is a red flag to some of the people we would like to come into the tent.
I’d eschew it, along with all other snarky references to the recent intra-party unpleasantness.
I’ve been mostly biting my tongue for months in all the rehashing-the-grievances-from-the-primary threads,
because I think that particular discussion is detrimental to achieving our shared goals.
efgoldman
@? Martin:
Assumes facts not in evidence: That Wilmer can win anything for anybody beyond his senate seat, or promote anyone else winning. He’s not helping Dems win anything by being Wilmie-one note and slagging on the party all the time.
TenguPhule
@randy khan:
True, though I think that the BLM ponies who kept interrupting his events didn’t help matters when it came to his campaign’s attempts to expand into a wider coalition.
Turgidson
@TenguPhule:
But strangely, he did not apply the same concern to equally not-winnable-to-Democrats’ Mountain West and prairie states which held tiny, unrepresentative caucuses to determine the winners. Those states were shining beacons of grassroots democracy and it was evil to ignore them just because they did not vote for the establishment’s preferred candidate. Very strange.
Goku
@Villago Delenda Est: Just like Corbyn and Labour!
Yarrow
@Bill: Does it bother you at all as a Bernie supporter that he will not join the Democratic party? Sure, he used the party infrastructure to run for president, so he changed his registration then, but he’s changed it right back when he lost. He’s not a Democrat. How are you included in the party because of him when he’s not in the party? I don’t understand.
Brachiator
@Cacti:
@SatanicPanic:
Hillary Clinton beat Sanders in the California primary, with a healthy 56 percent of the vote to 43.1 percent for Sanders. But Bernie was not just popular with students, and resonated with many Latinos, especially young working class Latinos. I saw with my own eyes, enthusiastic mixed groups of Bernie supporters headed to or coming from rallies. Not just sullen Bernie Bros.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
I posted this two fucking years ago – on Day fucking One:
ruemara
@TenguPhule: Ponies? You know, HRC at least managed to learn and address the concerns of the most loyal democratic party voting block. Our deaths due to police malfeasance is “ponies”. You need to apologize. You can think what you want about interruptions, but you took a serious dump on a deadly issue we’re dealing with.
Kay
This is a good discussion.
I forgot Bernie is popular, in the sense that he’s an immediately recognizable national figure and people know what he stands for. That had completely gone over my head but I think it’s true right now- he’s national and well-known.
I guess I could see how he could be a good anti-Trump. There will be an opportunity to exploit Trump’s populist bullshit because it’s clear he has no intention of doing any of it. That really DOES leave just racism as the Trump “brand”.
Chet Murthy
@Bill: Many people have noticed that Wilmer has a distressing willingness to jettison people of color and women, when it suits his audience. And those who believe that the rights of those constituencies are non-negotiable …. well, when we see that, we are alarmed and bit-by-bit pissed-off. I’ll give him this: he -seems- to be learning. But his backsliding (e.g. recently in Boston: “I’ve been there” — look it up) is …. pissing some (like me) off. Another example is his recent conversion to BLM support. Is that sincere? Can he be trusted? It’s hard to tell. When he slams Ossoff, that’s justifiably viewed as suspect.
And, heck, then there’s the “the class struggle trumps the struggle for racial/gender equality”. As Otto said in _Repo Man_: “Fuck that”.
James J Hare
@geg6: “I can’t think of anything that will make me less enthusiastic about doing my duty to my party than highlighting Bernie.
And if I and people like me aren’t out there doing the real work of getting people elected, then Dems aren’t going to get elected. And the more they highlight him, the less I’m inclined to keep up the work I’ve been doing for forty years for the party. Fuck him and fuck his bros. I want as much to do with them as I do with the fucking male white working class. Which would be nothing. At all. Ever.”
That is every bit as divisive as anything so-called Bernie supporters ever said. The fucking primary has been over for almost a year. GET THE FUCK OVER IT. If you can’t get over it you need to stop considering yourself a member of the Democratic party. You’re a member of some fucked up cult of personality around Bill and Hillary Clinton.
I get it — I liked the 90s too. Since 2008 the only thing that Bill and Hillary can seem to do is hire the shittiest campaign consultants possible and wage terrible campaigns. Reading the bullshit excuse-making and blame-shifting going on here nearly 6 months after Hillary lost is really annoying.
But when you’re literally saying “I don’t like this one politician who has influence in my party so I’m going to give up” you’re doing EXACTLY what you accused the Bernie folks of. How about this — fuck you. Take your fucking purity bullshit and shove it up your ass. If the people of the party decide we’re going in Bernie’s direction and you don’t want to be a part of that you were never really signed on in the first part. Stop patting yourself on the back. As someone who has frequently bit my tongue and supported Democratic politicians I didn’t particularly like for the good of the party it is disgusting to read this kind of bullshit from people who seem to believe they’re “good” Democrats.
TenguPhule
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
“Free College” is already being tried in some states. Whether or not it works is to be determined. And honestly, it was appealing to a large subset of potential voters.
Remember, Republicans don’t run on “tax cuts forever!” because it makes sense. They do it because it gets them votes.
As for Medicare for all. It was never going to happen right away, so the sudden crash was never going to happen. Medicare was still going to have to pay doctors and drug makers.
Insurance would still be selling policies for expanded coverage (and probably be profitable ones) for those who want it (See Great Britain for example of how it works).
This off the cuff belittling really was a problem during the election cycle.
Eljai
My elderly mom loves Wilmer. When I talked to her on the phone a couple days ago, she parroted Wilmer’s words about how we would have won the KS-04 election if the Democrats had spent more money there. I know she got this idea from watching him on Chris Hayes show. I told her if that’s the only lesson she took from that election then she’s missing the point. We’re making republicans spend big money in places they thought were safe! Then I felt bad for getting shrill. I love my mom! Seriously, Wilmer has got to stop with the Democratic-Party-Bad schtick. If I had his platform, I’d be talking up Democrats who are running for office, and capitalizing on the resistance enthusiasm. We’re trying to forge coalitions and encourage participation, for crissakes.
Sab
@Cacti: You need to read the late night threads. We have gnashed our teeth relentlessly on this subject. I’d suggest don’t go there.
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator: But that’s a variation of the same thing I keep hearing from Bernie, Shaun King, et al- “I saw lots of ____ people at Bernie rallies, therefore we can’t make these generalizations”. Sure, you could probably find members of any group at Bernie rallies, I know some personally. But on the whole I think most people of color would prefer someone else.
TenguPhule
@ruemara: I apologize as my reference wasn’t clear enough. The particular activists who crashed Sander’s events were self indulgent ponies. The BLM movement itself was and is not.
Bill
@ruemara: I’m a socialist. Literal socialist. (I spent my formative years in a western European socialist country.) My views have not be well represented in my party in my voting years. Accepting the realities of our two party system I’ve dutifully been a Democrat my whole voting life. I’ve supported and worked for candidates I disagreed with on key issues because coalition building is necessary to avoiding the disaster that happens when Republicans win. And being part of a political minority means not really getting what you want. But Sanders’ candidacy brought forth a discussion in my party – and a shift from the mainstream candidate – that titled in my direction.
So while people of my age and ethnicity have – and still do – control the Democratic party. Not many of them see policy the same way I do.
That’s not even close to the type of exclusion women and minorities have faced. (If that’s where you were going.) And I would never make that comparison. And again, those groups are the base of the party. They should be catered to more than me. All I’m saying is that a little more inclusion for people of my ilk aint a bad thing.
lamh36
@TenguPhule:
Please explain what you mean by this phrasing?
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That’ll help you, but what about everyone else?
Goku
@Kathleen: Agreed
joel hanes
@SatanicPanic:
Gillibrand, Harris or some pol to be named later.
I’m watching Ted Lieu. Sharp as hell, owes the national party apparatus very little, speaks his mind.
Chris
@SatanicPanic:
Fixed that for you.
And, you know, I’ve been a college kid in both undergraduate and graduate capacities, but I’m not dumb enough to think we represent the consensus opinion of the American population, or even the Democratic population.
efgoldman
@TenguPhule:
No. not all. Enough went to Insane Jill Stein, Dim Johnson, Amber Asswipe and/or write in or stayed home, to provide a microscopic victory.
Goku
@Kropadick: I don’t know, you might benefit
Brachiator
@Yarrow:
He ain’t changing, and he probably feels a little power rush from his failed primary challenge. He thinks he can take over the Democratic Party or force it to adopt his agenda.
Life is tough. If he has appeal to voters, you either have to accept it or deflect it.
Some people here remind me of the Lib Dems in the past UK elections. Instead of forming an alliance with their natural allies, the Labour Party, instead they tried for a power grabbing coalition with the Conservative Party and immediately lost all credibility and ceased to be relevant.
Trump is the opponent. Not Sanders.
BTW. The Democrats should be able to demolish Jill Stein. Purity Pony Greens may not come over, but Stein should be kicked to the curb as a Putin puppet.
TenguPhule
@SFAW: What, I have to keep telling you to fuck off in order to get you to believe its really me now? I’m not allowed to try to correct my behavior?
Kay
I read that Ivanaka believes that Trump can’t run the same campaign that he did last time because it will harm their family “brand” or some bullshit, but I don’t think that’s it. I think they know he won’t be able to spout the same lies in the same “perfect storm” he operated in last time with the same effect. That’s not a winning formula and it can’t be repeated.
Her solution seems to be some kind of East coast “compassionate conservative” but that isn’t what Trump voters were promised and he really shrinks when he’s put in an ordinary political context.
Chris
@O. Felix Culpa:
We get plenty of Berniac self-righteous butthurt in our county Democratic Party meetings. They’re genuinely surprised to find out that some of us activists actually LIKED and ENTHUSIASTICALLY SUPPORTED Hillary.
Starfish
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: But a campaign is not about deep policies. It is about goals that the party is going to aim for. This thing where Democrats are going to be cozy with Wall Street and have no plan for when everyone’s job is lost due to efficiencies of automation and free trade is a problem. Bernie is at least focused on some of the problems that matter to people.
Goku
@Brachiator:
Now I’m not saying I believe this, but some have expressed the notion that Wilmer is Putin puppet as well or at least has connections thru campaign staff
Kathleen
@Goku: Thank you for “listening” to my rant!
ThresherK
Pleasepleaseplease let this be like one of those rock tours that’s cancelled due to lack of interest and sales.
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I could live with the ideas as goals, as the left-hand chalked line marking the playing field, as permitted by the press corps. However, the supporters seem to have no idea that there’s anything between (1) candidate wins, (3) candidate’s speeches become law.
If Wilmer released a one-page whitepaper on how public colleges ought to be made tuition-free the same way as public high schools are, because a Bachelors’ degree today is equivalent to a HS diploma a century ago, I haven’t seen it.
And the FernieFros ignorance is useless. For them, the success of Dems in stopping another Trump effort to destroy something Democrats made into government and is popular with the electorate exists for one thing: To be interrupted by how neoliberal that program is.
I’d say they don’t get the maxim “When your opponent is making mistakes, don’t interrupt him”, but that would assume they consider Trump their biggest opponent.
Turgidson
@Corner Stone:
Given their current direction, by early 2018 the entire MSNBC schedule will be Morning Joey Joe Joe Jr. Shabadoo and Greta “You Can Take the Anchor Out of the Faux, but You’ll Never Take the Faux Out of the Anchor” Van Sustern.
TenguPhule
@lamh36: See 137. I wasn’t clear enough.
D58826
@Wjs:
Didn’t I see in the past week or so that Hillary has turned her mailing list over to the DNC?
If Bernie would do the same it would be a sign that he is in this for a larger purpose and is willing to make the compromises necessary for a coalition party like the D’s rather than just hearing people cheer his name at rallies.
Goku
@Starfish: And what exactly has Wilmer done in 30+ years in Washington to work towards these goals, besides jerking himself off at his Senate floor desk
? Martin
@efgoldman: Begs the question – is this Bernie running the show or Perez? Even though Bernie lost the primary, he’s able to win just fine in Vermont. The point of a 50 state strategy is that you run the strategy you need inside each race, rather than demand ideological purity at the national level. That’s why Democrats would be stupid to push guys like Manchin out – he may rub against the progressive grain, but his ability to win in West Virginia is worth more. Perez would be wise to run Bernie out to the states that are receptive to his message, and run Waters out to the states that are receptive to hers, and whoever else in the party is a best fit for a race Dems are trying to win.
Bill
@Yarrow:
Yeah it does. Quite a bit actually. But I was encouraged that he ran as a Democratic candidate, and now seems to be making some efforts with the party elite to build a coalition. (I wish he would give up the “But I’m an independent” routine though.) It would have been better if a lifetime Democrat played his role. None did though.
FWIW, I hope he doesn’t run again. He’s served his purpose, and I’m tired of Baby Boomers fighting the same battles of 1969.
TenguPhule
@efgoldman: 61% to 29% is not microscopic.
Chet Murthy
@TenguPhule:
Gotta disagree here. I remember when it happened, and my first reaction was “oh, they interrupted him, it was his event”. But after a while, it dawned on me that a Dem MUST address these issues, be acceptable to this constituency. And Wilmer hadn’t done it yet. After a few interruptions, he started trying. And I give him credit for that. Heck, if he’d just not have backslid so often (right up to recently, ffs) I might be a supporter.
ETA: B’c people are getting shot, are dying, and thru no fault of their own. If a Dem candidate can’t address that, doesn’t have a plan for that, doesn’t have a constituency amongst those affected populations (I’m writing as dispassionately as I can here), then he’s not my candidate. It’s as much a litmus test, as reproductive rights.
efgoldman
@tomtofa:
Hey look! A delusional Wilmerbot showed up.
You base that on what? That he only lost in the primaries by three million votes?
Just go away and let the grownups talk.
ruemara
@TenguPhule: They weren’t. You don’t know much about them. I may have disagreed with many of their takes on Sanders or Clinton, but describing them as ponies is dismissive and shallow.
@Bill: As a former Green who’s pretty socialist, yet pragmatic, I can’t see it. Many of his ideas aren’t exactly ones only he’s been pushing.
@Brachiator: Man.
Go. Tell. Sanders. That. No one here would still be this mad at the guy if he was fighting Trump. He’s not. This isn’t purity for POC or women. This is a reality that could see us losing ground we never, ever conceived of losing. I am very sure if Sanders lost some of that popularity (confusing name recognition with popularity is never good), he’d slither back to his safe bench and Thom Hartmann appearances.
lamh36
@Kay: I have yet to see he be anti-Trump…compared to other truly anti-Trump folks…with all his exposure…imagine how much play it would get if he was at least talking the talk Maxine Waters is when it comes to Trump…
? Martin
@Kay: Ivanka is very simple: she believes the polling. Where Donald believed Bannon and asserts that the polls are a lie, Ivanka is the opposite. She’s probably very realistic in the recognition they got incredibly lucky and can’t count on that happening again.
goblue72
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Not referring to him as Wilmer might be a start, Asshole.
TenguPhule
@Chet Murthy:
I don’t disagree, but their method of choice was the problem. Remember he was letting them take over the first couple of times,but it didn’t endear them or the movement to his supporters at the time. Who were not all Democrats.
? Martin
@efgoldman: Actually, the polling shows that. It sounds odd, but a LOT of republican voters demand single-payer, they just don’t want it delivered by a Democrat. Sanders kind of fits well in that slot.
Goku
@goblue72: It’s standard anti-troll protocol here. Apparently, it’s not working because you showed up
Elie
@Bill:
Man I watched that asshole’s shenanigans set up many of his stawarts to think the same thing as Republicans and set up the crooked Hillary scenario that kept many of them either at home or voting for Stein. Did you know that Stein’s vote in WI would have won that state for Hillary and was made up of a lot of Bernie-ites. To see what we have in the WH because of his tomfoolery (at least in part), drives me crazy. That and he had that little tax problem too which we never got straight. And remember that trip to the Vatican where his family and team all were served cordon bleu food for him to meet with the pope for 5 min? This guy is nothing but a big show boat fake who sold a bill of goods to a whole lot of folks who should have known better.
TenguPhule
@ruemara: There were very few methods they could have used that were worse for their goals then what they chose to do. Optics wise, they hurt the BLM movement and irritated a lot of people who might have been more sympathic to their cause if not for their stunt.
So yes, I feel ponies is fully justified.
Chet Murthy
@TenguPhule:
TP, with all due respect, No, No, A thousand times NO!
Have you ever seen _Do the Right Thing_? [Spoiler] it ends with a riot, started by the main character, Mookie. Why was that “the right thing”? Because without that riot, nobody would have known that Radio Raheem was killed unjustly by the police. [And it’s clear that Mookie starts the riot -deliberately-, as he’s looking on at Raheem’s death scene.] And that’s the message implicit in the last line of the movie.
Those BLM protestors were *exactly* NOT self-indulgent ponies. They were doing whatever they could, short of crimes, to get their case before the nation, before the Dems, before a Dem candidate named Wilmer.
Starfish
@Goku: It is not about him or his personality. It is about the current Democratic mayor of Baltimore supporting the $15/HR minimum wage during her campaign and then vetoing it when it got to her desk because Baltimore can’t afford it due to the sweetheart deals the city cooks up for big developers who do jack for the city. That Democratic Party values Under Armour more than minimum wage workers.
The Democratic Party needs to bust the chops of some CEOs without those guys whining about how sad they are.
Chris
@Frankensteinbeck:
This. It’s what Sanders has repeatedly done and doubled down on since the election (exactly when we can no longer afford that shit), and what makes him different from Elizabeth Warren, Keith Ellison, and pretty much everyone else in that wing of the party. If Sanders would just fade to background and let one of them keep going, we’d probably be fine. But as it is, the fact that Sanders remains the face of the movement and won’t stop going up there and telling people over and over that the Democratic Party as it currently exists is their enemy is absolutely toxic.
Yes, he may inspire some voters to vote Democrat. But what a lot of the others are hearing is “there’s not a dime’s worth of difference, and unless they nominate Sanders or someone he approves in 2020, I won’t vote.”
And that’s not even counting the cost in nonwhite and women votes that, as others have mentioned, comes from the sight of all-white Berniebros booing a Latino on stage, Bernie and his supporters telling people that we need to push back against “identity politics,” or Bernie mocking the Hillary candidacy in textbook Republican-speak as “you can’t just tell people to vote for you because you’re a woman!” While people are talking about WWCs and how rejected they feel about a party that they think has gone Republican-lite on economics, more and more nonwhites are afraid of being shut out of a party that Bernie wants to make Republican-lite on race. It may or may not be what he intends, but it’s sure as hell what a lot of people are hearing (and for my money, it’s what the end-result is whether he intends it or not).
TenguPhule
@? Martin:
This.
/But expecting an agreement just among the commentors here, let alone the actual party, is an exercise in futile wishing.
Brachiator
@SatanicPanic:
I hate it when people lump all people of color together.
Clinton had the black vote in the California Primary locked up. And she won overall impressively. But the plain fact is that Sanders did have considerable Latino support. Let’s look at the fairest assessment that I could find:
Clinton overall a clear winner. But not by a landslide. And there is this.
Latino voters under age 50 are not starry eyed college students.
Again, this is just California. I do not attempt to extrapolate this to any kind of national appeal that Sanders might or might not have.
So all this comes around to my own original question. Does Sanders have any voter support? Is it increasing? I really don’t care how many people here hate Bernie. I understand it, but it is irrelevant. And Bernie busting is not going to defeat Trump.
O. Felix Culpa
@ruemara:
This. I would gladly work alongside Sanders (and do actually work alongside some of his supporters) if he would give up his thinly veiled misogyny – presumably a carryforward from his New Left roots – and his blindness to POC. It’s why I walked away from him in the primaries and he hasn’t done much to win my heart or mind since.
dm
@Kathleen:
You see a lot of things on Twitter. People saw all sorts of things about Hillary on Twitter last year, after all, and went and voted for Trump as a result.
Can you trace it to something Sanders actually said? (Looking for corroboration, I see that Sanders today said he didn’t know whether Ossoff is a ‘progressive’, but nothing about Lewis — you are correct to say that Sanders shouldn’t take Lewis’ name in vain on any topic.)
On the other hand which do you think is more helpful to Ossoff’s campaign in Georgia: an endorsement from Sanders, or a statement of uncertainty that Ossoff is a progressive (as you contemplate your answer, note that the Republicans tried to label Ossoff as a “Sanders-style Democrat” during the campaign).
@TenguPhule:
I don’t think this is true — I think the BLM folks were medicine his campaign needed (and I don’t know how effective the “cure” was): he really was tone-deaf in his initial response to them, and that was something that needed fixing. I think that interaction also helped the Clinton campaign (which was much better positioned to benefit from that help).
For those who say that racism causes inequality, I think the story is more complicated than that: racism and inequality feed on one another (racism is a way for oppressed whites to fool themselves into thinking that there are others who are worse off, instead of making common cause with them — in fact, it may have been invented for that purpose (the history of racial attitudes is not as simple as we’ve been taught to believe)). But there’s no “the solution” to either problem.
efgoldman
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
JEZOOZ FUCKING KRISTE ON A TRISCUIT! PEREZ NEEDS TO DUMP THIS FUCKING ASSHOLE AND DO IT LAST WEEK!!!!
Kropadope
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Translation: IGMFY
The Thin Black Duke
@TenguPhule:
Now I know not to take anything you say seriously ever again. Thank you.
D58826
OH my another set of pictures published by the lying media. They show the 2015 Patriot appearance at the WH with the crowd extending up the steps vs the 2017 event. The crowd today was much much smaller.
I’m sure we will hear from Der Fuhrer about the doctored photos.
https://twitter.com/NYTSports/status/854793140125020160
lamh36
@? Martin: I don’t live in WV, so I guess it’s fine having Manchin as the face of WV…and he’s a Dem…woop de doo…I’ll accept that…
But I’ll be damn if he needs to shit on and disrespect the last Dem Prez with statements like “WV-ians DESPISE Barack Obama”…and I’ll not wish for a fist to hit him in his face.
Steve in the ATL
@tomtofa:
At a bare minimum, the face of the Democrats must be (1) a Democrat; and (2) someone who supports the Democratic Party and does not publicly trash it. Repeatedly. Even after Donald Fucking Trump became president.
I welcome WilmerBros into the big tent, but I am too old, tired, cranky, and wise* to tolerate any purity pony bullshit. We live in the real world and must proceed accordingly.
*caveat: I am nowhere near as old, tired, cranky, or wise as efgoldman.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@SatanicPanic: also they are the most loyal Dem voters suffering the most under the North Carolina conditions of the South but yeah let’s chin stroke about whether they are getting unfair influence over the Dem primary…
ruemara
@TenguPhule: Stick to ignorance then. They’re not. You’re full wrong.
Kay
@lamh36:
The Left wing of the Democratic Party saw Trump’s economic message as validation because Trump is a Republican and they argue that these policies are actually popular. It really comes down to whether one saw Trump as primarily racist or primarily “economic issues” and THAT of course probably has a lot to do with where you’re standing :)
To me the question is answered because Trump hasn’t given any indication he is an economic populist in any real way (other than the EO’s, which are glorified press releases). To me it’s clear the “it’s the racism” people were right.
The question for Trump is what does he do with that? The economic populism was a convenient smokescreen, but if he doesn’t DO any of the things he promised he’ll be running on pure dog whistles and that won’t work anymore than it works with fringe candidates like Duke. THAT’S what could be a good contrast- Bernie’s brand of populism set off against Trump’s when Trump has an actual record.
geg6
@daveNYC:
Go fuck yourself. You apparently live in New York, so you don’t have a clue what it’s like here in WWC hellholes like I do. It’s fuckheads like Bernie and Nader that have made it more difficult to elect Dems here. For most of my forty years working for Dems here, we won. It’s only been since about 2000 that things changed and we are now Republican territory. And a lot of that is due to people (read white men and their hangers on) buying into the idea that both parties are the same. And who is selling that bullshit? It isn’t Dems. And who’s buying it? It ain’t women or people of color, that’s for sure.
Suffragete City elftx
Wilmer wants the party remade in his image.
Fuk that.
TenguPhule
@Chet Murthy: His national media presence at the time was still pretty poor and he was not the favored candidate, so why drop in there and be a bunch of giant dicks to the very people they were trying to get support from? Your theory doesn’t make sense when the actions are counterproductive to the goal.
HeleninEire
Date blog update. Having a great time. He just asked me to go to the west of Ireland with him for a weekend. The west of Ireland is gorgeous. Been 20 years since I’ve been there. Should I BJ friends?
Goku
@Starfish: Does Mayor of Baltimore = National Dems? I think that that’s wrong if true, but Wilmer is not the guy to bring that message forward or recruit more people into the Democratic Party of which he is still not a member.
His personality absolutely is important, because sets toxic tone at these events where you have the crowds booing Tom Perez, an actually labor activist, for not being pure enough. It’s bullshit. This is not the time for this.
The Republicans want to establish a defacto one party police state and he goes and insults Lewis and and tars Osoff by association? He’s an asshole who needs to go away
Chris
@Yarrow:
As near as I can tell, support for Bernie Sanders is a mile wide and an inch deep. Most people generally like the guy, in a lovable-crazy-uncle kind of way. Most people seem to think he means well and has laudable goals. But that doesn’t mean that when push comes to shove, they’ll follow his lead at the voting booth, or even that he can get them there in the first place. As we see with all the Bernie-backed candidates who keep crashing and burning around the nation.
kindness
I guess Bernie doesn’t care that he is shitting on life long Democrats in his appeal to burn the party to the ground and build a new pure one.
Fuck that guy. I mean, I’ll take his voters but I can do without the boot in my ass.
Yarrow
@? Martin:
I really hope this is the plan. the Bros tour is fine for a start, so long as they keep it to places where B is popular. Then pick up Maxine Waters for some areas where she’ll rally the crowd. And so forth for other Dems and other areas. Get local candidates up on the stage too–give them exposure. Show how everyone is working together. That should be the role of the DNC. I hope Perez understands that.
One thought occurred to me–maybe he’s starting the tour with Bernie to show unity and get it out of the way. No one will be able to say he didn’t partner with Bernie. As the months creep closer to the 2018 election he may switch to other people to join the tour.
The Thin Black Duke
@geg6: Bottom line, the Trumpsters and Bernie Bros share one common goal: white guys get to stay on top. Everything else is just noise.
TenguPhule
@ruemara: They took over an event. He let them speak. And speak. And speak. To the point that the crowd was getting frustrated with them.
Exactly how do you think that helped BLM in any way? Please explain.
ETA: If anything, the BLM crashing hurt Sanders because it made him look weak, which the national media ran with it.
Chet Murthy
@TenguPhule:
Um, this is what they call “respectability politics”, right? The old “we support your cause, but you’re doing it wrong” thing? When it’s a matter of life-and-death, keeping a low voice and waiting in line to petition respectfully doesn’t really work. And the other thing? Well, as I remember it, that’s what ACT-UP did. That’s what did the trick for the Vietnam War.
JPL
@HeleninEire: The momma in me says too soon, but maybe at a later date. Glad you are having fun.
Yarrow
@Bill: Thanks for your reply. It really bothers me that he won’t join the party and stay in the party, yet he feels like it’s his role to criticize it and “fix” it somehow. It’s really easy to criticize things from the outside and a lot harder to fix them once you’re involved. I am afraid he prefers his outsider status where he can point fingers rather than rolling up his sleeves and getting to work.
I hope he doesn’t run again either. Time for new people.
Kropadope
@Goku:
Says the full time troll who literally never has anything positive to say.
les
@tomtofa:
I want some of what you’re smokin’. In a lifetime on the public tit, he’s accomplished exactly zero. And tho some seem to have missed it, he lost the Democratic primary. His fame is mostly in his head.
lamh36
@TenguPhule:
Uh huh…@The Thin Black Duke, I think I’m gonna be with you on this…
Goku
@Kropadope: I think you’re confusing me with someone else. TenguPhule maybe?
I mean, I’m usually pretty nice around here, unless some dummy troll shows up, then I let my inner asshole out
ruemara
Here’s the thing. I’ve been hearing Sanders is the “Most Popular Politician” going back to early in the primary. If he was, why did he lose the primary? Why haven’t any high profile Berniecrat candidates won their races? If he had the real draw or power with the populations I see people dragging out, he would’ve had more impact. Especially post election, as HRC has taken a retired role. Lots of fans, but not that many die-hards. If his role is to build unity and inroads for the Democratic party, he’d need a better track record. I’m just done with this celebration of mediocrity. He has no provable record of increasing Dem gains in seats or voters. He does have a track record of increasing dissatisfaction with the party and spreading disinformation.
SFAW
@TenguPhule:
“Keep telling” implies it’s happened before. Be that as it may …
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator:
As a Latino, I’m actually very pleased with the recognition that while yes, Latinos, Asians, Blacks, etc. don’t have the same experience, we’re better off working together.
Kay
@HeleninEire:
No. It’s too soon for traveling. How will you extricate yourself if it turns horrible? Answer that and you may go.
Betty Cracker
@HeleninEire: Too soon! /mom voice
D58826
@D58826: and a bit more on the Patriots event. Since Brady was a no show Der Fuhrer didn’t mention him. Der Fuhrer did call out for Danny Amendoila to step forward for recognition. Only problem is Danny wasn’t there either. Is there any one at the WH doing this kind of pre-event prep/staff work? Well I guess Jerrod can’t do everything.
O. Felix Culpa
@The Thin Black Duke:
Preach.
WaterGirl
I want to see a poll where they ask if you voted for Bernie in the primary and how you feel about him now. Bernie burned his bridges with me many months ago. He’s worse than the spoiler in 2000. As far as I’m concerned, he’s pond scum on the democratic party. If you want to have build the democratic party in the image you want, fucking join the democratic party.
Sorry for the rant, very tired, I have been working since 4am, just took a break to look at BJ.
P.S. The time just dinged to tell me my soup is ready. Apparently you have to actually turn on the burner if you want it to warm your soup. Who knew? :-)
SatanicPanic
@Uncle Ebeneezer: Lol, seriously, why poop on those people? That was so dumb.
ruemara
@TenguPhule: Are you still talking? I got nothing to say to people who think structural inequality requires a polite wait for someone to recognize us. We’re always reliable GOTV workers, donaters and goddamn voters for progress, but we gotta wait and be succinct. I heard their entire speech, he didn’t “let them talk”, he walked off in a huff. They were booed by those liberal Seattle-ites who couldn’t stand being considered racist. We got nothing more to say on this because you’re not able to hear.
TenguPhule
@Chet Murthy: And that might actually have something to it, if it wasn’t for the fact the Sanders was the only candidate that got steamrolled like that. A “have your cake and eat it too” of claiming risk in the safest place to do it in.
Again, not the best optics for the movement.
Kropadope
@The Thin Black Duke:
Clearly your opinion is one that came from dialogue and not some preconceived notion.
JPL
@Kay: @Betty Cracker:
I was hesitant when I posted that above, and I appreciate your comments. Yup .. too soon
As far as Bernie goes, I live in the sixth and he needs to shut his mouth.
D58826
@les:
Which is why he is the most popular politician in America right now. Promising free stuff is easy and popular. Actually passing legislation to get that stuff is bound to piss some folks off esp. if the ‘free’ part doesn’t materialize. ,
Jim, Foolish Literalist
the thread is shorter and less hostile than I thought it would be by now.
I would like Wilmer to explain exactly which “top down” decisions in the Democratic Party he’s talking about
ruemara
@HeleninEire: Too soon.
But is he cute, smart, funny? DISH!
Chet Murthy
@TenguPhule: He was the second-place candidate. And OBTW, HRC was well-liked and -respected by black pols nationwide. So it made little sense to try to disrupt her. Further, Wilmer was clearly not sending a message that he understood black people’s issues and specifically BLM. Let’s note that he changed -radically- and for the better, after a couple of BLM “interventions”. I call that proof that he was in need of correction, and took (some of) the lesson.
Y’know, again, if he’d just stop straying back into “oh, they’re not racists, nononono” territory, I’d be OK with him. [though, I’d have to look into his stance on reproductive rights before I could really commit to that.]
rikyrah
@Emma:
He is already screwing them. Look at his comments about Ossoff.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@goblue72: Hiya Dwight!
Shut the fuck up.
Kay
@ruemara:
I don’t think he’s “the most popular politician”. I do think he’s a recognizable national figure who didn’t lose a general so isn’t carrying that around. And his policies are broadly popular, if not realistic. They’re partly popular because he never got to the general so didn’t have to get into specifics, or betrayals, or compromises.
It’s not fair that they get to do this “he WOULDA won” thing but “didn’t lose” is different than “lost”.
He made himself nationally-known with that run and everyone (vaguely) knows what he represents.
les
@dmsilev:
This; and worse, he doesn’t have the first fucking clue how to implement his “plans” on economic interests. Now he’s all excited ’cause “he” introduced a Medicare For All bill; which John Conyers has been doing since 2003, but Wilmer never apparently noticed.
TenguPhule
@ruemara: So take a real risk and storm a Hillary event? Storm a Bush event? Storm a Ben Carson event? Storm a Trump event?
Those particular ponies took ZERO RISK compared to the rest of the movement. Frankly, you insult the entire BLM movement by defending them.
JPL
@rikyrah: He truly needs to stay away from the sixth district. Ossoff gained ground because of his positive campaign. A grifting rebel rouser could hurt.
Yarrow
@HeleninEire: Yes, you should go! But first have another date or two just to be sure he’s not, you know, a serial killer.
rikyrah
@efgoldman:
Young folk love ‘Auntie’ Maxine.
Waters is closer to the fighting spirit of those of us who don’t want any compromise with the GOP. Haven’t heard Wilmer utter anything about Russia.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The Bernie people lose me when they start that. It’s conspiratorial thinking to believe there’s some uber-powerful Democratic council making decisions. It’s much more boring than that.
It is ridiculous to think “Democrats” are carefully vetting candidates for ideological centrism. That presupposes that there are crowds of people who want nothing more than to run for a House seat, like we’re rejecting applicants. That just isn’t in any way how it works. It is MUCH more informal and chaotic and poorly planned.
Brachiator
@Goku: RE: BTW. The Democrats should be able to demolish Jill Stein. Purity Pony Greens may not come over, but Stein should be kicked to the curb as a Putin puppet.
Hmm. I don’t know about that. But there is this recent story (unless it’s fake news)
Jill Stein was at the same table.
Coincidence? Or hiding in plain sight?
Chris
@Brachiator:
Yeah, that’s what I’m terrified of. That Bernie’s ultimate legacy will just be a faction of purity trolls too small to have any actual impact on politics but just big enough to siphon off votes from the mainstream left that’ll cost it to win. Which is already what far too many far-left parties do in Europe.
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule:
They did do that.
Kathleen
@Goku: Thank you. To paraphrase the kids, where are the receipts?
MomSense
@rikyrah:
I would definitely pay to see Maxine and Tom. It would be a lot more motivating and relevant.
I’m so sick of Wilmer. Only a white guy who knows shit all about his core issues could scold and wag his finger at the rest of us and get away with it.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@TenguPhule: are you Black? Because if not you should kindly STFU about what BLM or any other Black Liberation groups chooses as it’s tactics. Your Lane—–>>>>
You check out the TWiB episode out where Marissa Janae Johnson was interviewed just after she interrupted Bernie and here all about just how she was “allowed to talk.” You should follow her on Twittrr and sign up for SafetyPinBox (which she co-created) if you truly care about BLM beyond tone policing them for ruffling your sacred Birdies feathers.
Anyone who was turned off by that incident to supporting BLM was never serious about supporting them to begin with and is exactly the sort of mild-racist White Liberal that they And MLK warned about.
geg6
@Kropadope:
It’s my opinion, too. Which comes from dialogue and listening. I heard their message loud and clear.
Chet Murthy
@rikyrah: Oh man, when she called ’em “Scumbags”!!!! Love her! I called her office to thank her, and she’s not even my rep!
les
@joel hanes:
I think it’s an error to regard the discussion this way. Yeah, some Bro’s (sorry if you don’t like the term, but it’s descriptive) are still maintaining they was robbed, and the Bern would have defeated Trump. But most of the discussion is what Bern is doing now, and whether Bern is an asset to achieving our shared goals. To the extent Bern actually shares them–it ain’t obvious.
ruemara
@TenguPhule: THEY DID! Jesus, you’re ignorant about what they did during the primaries. And why the fuck would they storm a GOP event? WE KNOW WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.
@Uncle Ebeneezer: Damn right. This guy doesn’t know half what he thinks he does about Marissa.
Goku
@Brachiator: Oh no question that was on purpose and Putin was using them
WaterGirl
@efgoldman:
This white girl will take a shouty black person over one more fucking old white male politician – any day of the week!
(But I do love Joe Biden, so I know I shouldn’t paint with too broad a brush!)
Jeffro
If people get bored talking about Wilmer could we get a new thread to talk about Exxon asking today for sanctions to be lifted on Russia?
Kropadope
@Chet Murthy:
Pop quiz, one of the two candidates running in the 2016 D primary had a history of making explicitly racist political appeals. Which one? Hint: Her initials were HRC.
Besides which, Bernie has demonstrated an awareness and support (if not top priority) for issues important to BLM for decades, he was ahead of many Dems on this in the 90s. That this info didn’t penetrate deep into the D electorate was a successful propaganda coup by Clinton partisans. The fact that most of these same Clinton partisans I encountered were old white liberal paternalistic assholes is just icing.
@geg6:
Can you offer and evidentiary support for this opinion?
NR
@les:
Sorry bud, but actual data contradicts your view. Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in America with a net favorable rating of +25. That’s better than Donald Trump (-7), Mike Pence (+3), Hillary Clinton (-11), Paul Ryan (-13), Elizabeth Warren (+6), Nancy Pelosi (-17), and Chuck Schumer (-8). Bernie Sanders has 80% favorability among Democrats, showing that most Dems don’t share the irrational hatred that you folks have for the man.
Oh, and some other numbers. Bernie Sanders has 58% favorabiltiy among women, 73% among African-Americans, 68% among Hispanics, and 62% among Asian-Americans. Not bad for someone who “only wants white guys to stay on top,” eh? I guess they aren’t buying your bullshit either. Too bad.
dogwood
Sanders caught fire in the same way Trump did. Populism for white people. It’s angry, resentful and slim on policy, but it really fires people up. And the real problem with Sanders is that on many issues he’s not very liberal or progressive at all. Free college and single payer are two policy proposals that excite the left. But when it comes to guns, civil rights, reproductive rights, climate change and foreign policy, he has absolutely nothing to say. I cant fret about Bernie and his relationship with the DNC because I don’t have any control over it. I just know for my own sanity, I won’t support his candidates in primary elections which isn’t new for me since I have never been enchanted by populism in general.
JPL
@Yarrow: lol We didn’t go that far. A few years back, while at a neighbor’s house for dinner with my son and now dil, he mentioned he didn’t mind if I went out for coffee with someone, but would be upset if he found me chopped up in pieces when he stopped by. It was awkward.
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
So my fantasy is to move to So Cal. I’m so sick of winter so don’t know what to do.
Then I discovered that some of the knitters I follow on IG live in Echo Park and Silver Lake in LA and now all I can think about it selling everything and moving to LA.
TenguPhule
@Chet Murthy:
In a two person race. With practically no media presence at the start until late in the game. Again, I don’t disagree he changed for the better after they disrupted him, but the movement as a whole didn’t come out looking better for it to the general public. They could have gotten better exposure with Hillary Clinton and wouldn’t have had to pull that kind of unpopular stunt to do it. They could have just talked to her and probably got her support. Instead, they picked the all-about-me option.
Yarrow
@rikyrah:
Nope. He’s shockingly quiet about it. Look upthread for my post with a link to Adam Khan’s twitter thread about BS’s links to Russia.
Kathleen
@Starfish: And bailing out auto industry and saving jobs and passing legislation that provides affordable health care are not worth caring about? Or addressing climate change? Or establishing the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau?
Jeffro
And if not Exxon maybe we could get a thread going about how the trump administration used Nunes to sift through classified information in an attempt to back up trump’s unsubstantiated smear of Susan rice.
As J-Rubs noted just a couple hours ago on the Post website if Obama had done anything remotely similar, articles of impeachment would’ve been drafted before dinner time tonight
Chet Murthy
@SatanicPanic: Oh, I’d forgotten. Do you mean this one? Selective quoting, b/c I think it matters that she had many African-American pols (and thought leaders) as surrogates
Kathleen
Deleted. Duplicate
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Wheeeeeeeeellllllmuuuuuuuur ! You realize he’s going to cost us 2018 right?
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: Not the same activists. These activists I can respect.
les
@Starfish:
This, right here, is why actual Democrats think Bern supporters are complete idiots. Naive, uninformed, selfish and unwilling to do anything about it.
Goku
@NR: N(R), you is here, comrade! Me and Vlad missed you! He tells rubles are in mail
Only half /satire
SatanicPanic
@Chet Murthy: honestly I just remembered that it happened, I was hazy on the details haha
Kay
@rikyrah:
The “would have won” doesn’t do anything for me. I hate that whole line of thinking. No one knows what would have won. I mean, Jesus Christ. Like we all predicted that bizarre chain of events- the 15 things that had to happen for Trump to win. I listen to Michael Moore and just think “sure- you saw those 20,000 votes in Michigan” – it could have just as easily have gone the other way.
The email obsession was bizarre all by itself. They could have easily decided to treat that as boring, which it was.
efgoldman
@? Martin:
I think now that the anger phase is finally over, nobody with any political acumen at all is suiggesting that Manchin (or McKaskill, etc) be dumped. Realistically those seats are in enough danger as is, altho I don’t misunderestimateb Mango Malignancy’s ability to win them for us.
Which message? That Ossoff isn’t progressive enough? That the Dems are morally bankrupt? That he hasn’t got the first fucking idea how he’d implement his pet program of breaking up the banks? That white racists count more than women and POC who are the core of the Democratic electorate?
Sorry, no. Bring Schiff on tour, or Moulton from MA, or Harris or Liz Warren. A real Democrat. If Tangerine Torquemada and Yertle McTurtle or Granny Starver are the true enemies SLAG ON THEM AND ENDORSE ACTUAL DEMS.
Is that so fucking hard? For Wilmer, apparently yes.
Mnemosyne
@Bill:
It would be great if the Berniebros were interested in being included and working together. Unfortunately, 90 percent of the time, what they want is to bitch and moan about the way things are without having to do any of the hard work to change the things they don’t like.
If “feeling included” means that you’re now going to your local Democratic Party meetings and volunteering your time and energy, great! If it’s just watching YouTube videos and posting on Facebook about how awesome it is to see Bernie sticking it to the “Establishment Dems” — most of whom are not just women, but minority women — then, no. You’re not “feeling included,” you’re demanding special privileges that you haven’t earned, unlike Donna Brazile, Hillary Clinton, and, yes, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.
TenguPhule
@ruemara: No they didn’t. Other BLM activists took those actual risks. Which I can respect.
Bill
@Chet Murthy: I keep hearing that Bernie is saying veiled racist things – or jettisoning people of color – and I don’t see it. (I actually worry that I’m blind to something here because I’m hearing these comments with such regularity.) I disagree with Sanders that Trump voters weren’t racist. (They were.) And I think his attempts to win their support are folly. (They will never vote for a Jew) But I hear him proposing policies that will overwhelmingly help poor people. Which because of our racist system means helping people of color. He’s hardly saying “let’s only give free college to white kids.”
He’s hardly perfect. I have my disagreements with him. I had them on guns and foreign policy. i would’ve far preferred if Cory Booker was the standard bearer for single payer, a living minimum wage and affordable college. But he wasn’t.
rikyrah
@ruemara:
Tell it
Bill
@Mnemosyne:
Was doing this long before Bernie ever came along. But thanks for the assumptions.
les
@TenguPhule:
Yeah, hell, maybe that Kapernik guy has a point, but he’s making it wrong!!!
Criticizing method is just a way to ignore the content.
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
It’s expensive here. Really, really expensive. You will never be able to own a home unless you’re independently wealthy or make at least $200,000 a year.
But the weather and people are very nice out here.
Chet Murthy
@Kropadope:
Ooooh! I know this one! Can I have “trying to stay electable as the country moves right” for $100 ? Look: you argument comes down to “nearly the entire black Dem political class are fools”. Yeah, she has a -history- of having done and said some awful things. I recall that when WJC signed welfare reform, she got a very heartbroken letter from Marian Wright Edelman. And the excoriation both WJC and HRC received was earned. But y’know, to pretend that all HRC is about, is “superpredators”, is (as I said) to paint people like John Lewis and Maxine Waters as idiots.
Whereas, when Bernie says (in Boston, recently) that Trump’s WWC voters aren’t racists, yeah yeah, he’s just pandering to the crowd.
Tell me another, gramps.
TenguPhule
@Goku: Gotta update to Yuan these days for that joke. Ruples aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on and our dollar isn’t looking too stable either.
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule: This is an odd point to make. I dunno man, I’m not black so I try to stay out of the conversation on what BLM should or shouldn’t do. I’m just saying I remember it happening.
Chris
@Kay:
What I love about this is that during the actual primary and general election, the anti-Hillary line was “you should totally stay home or vote for Jill Stein rather than vote for the neoliberal-warhawk-corporate-whore, because everyone knows she’s going to win anyway. All right, if you’re in a swing state like Florida or Ohio, vote Hillary, but otherwise, don’t sully yourself. Send A Message to the Democrats.”
Like, the entire “Bernie or bust” campaign was openly and unashamedly predicated on the notion that Hillary would win.
Until November 9th, at which point it suddenly becomes, “my God, this disaster happened because you voted for this nasty woman that everybody knew was unelectable instead of my guy! If only you’d listened to me…”
Brachiator
@Chris: RE: Some people here remind me of the Lib Dems in the past UK elections. Instead of forming an alliance with their natural allies, the Labour Party, instead they tried for a power grabbing coalition with the Conservative Party and immediately lost all credibility and ceased to be relevant.
Sorry, you can’t just put that on Bernie. You have to include the impact of people here who insist on rejecting the voters who are attracted to Sanders as somehow being unworthy, and who reject Sanders’ ability to draw in people who might be receptive to the Democrat’s message.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@goblue72:
How about we just refer to him as egotistical lying piece of shit incompetent asshole? That better?
TenguPhule
@les: Crash a Sanders event, get booed and unflattering media coverage.
Crash a Hillary event, she agrees with your points and points out that she’s on your side. Which do you think works more towards BLM’s goals?
Cacti
@Bill:
Here’s the problem with the idea.
Free college by itself doesn’t make kids from the lowest performing districts more likely to go to college.
It gives kids already on a college track (solidly middle class or affluent) a trickle up benefit. Free college without addressing inequality in public K-12 education just means the haves will have more.
dm
@efgoldman: Harvard-Harris poll: Sanders is nation’s most popular politician
Includes a nice chart, listing Sanders’ approval at: 73% among African-Americans, 68% among Hispanics, 62% among Asian-Americans, 52% among whites, and 80% among Democrats.
That said, the poll seems to have been headed by Mark Penn, who did a pretty terrible job as pollster and chief strategist for Hillary Clinton’s 2008 campaign.
@lamh36:
Sanders rails against Trump after speech
Sanders on Trump: “This guy is a fraud”
Sanders: Trump is ‘delusional,’ says he could move US into ‘authoritarian mode’
I got tired of googling at that point, but the last two aren’t so far from the way Maxine Waters might describe Trump.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Exactly, he can’t not be a dick. That’s the fucking problem. I forget which of his colleagues, Rangel or Frank, said that he cannot accept that anyone who disagrees with him does so for reasons other than corruption or cowardice*. When he talks about “top down decisions”, he’s talking about super delegates and his delusion that the nomination was stolen from him. He’s too fucking stupid and narcissistic to understand he’s only where he is because his opponents, for different reasons, find and found it expedient to treat him with kid gloves.
*one of them said this, the other said he had never, in all their years in the House together, had a conversation with Wilmer, he had only been condescendingly lectured at by Wilmer.
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
Maxine Waters is a longtime local politician here in LA, along with Adam Schiff, so it’s no coincidence that the Berniebros couldn’t get any traction. So Cal Democrats know who’s working hard for us, and it ain’t Bernie.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: I just find the whole “we gotta make a statement to be heard!” defense for the ponies to be a little absurd when those women took ZERO risk compared to other BLM activists who actually helped their movement instead of hindering it. Hell, the ones who crashed Hillary Clinton’s fundraiser were better behaved and received a better response.
NR
@dm: Shh, don’t challenge the BJ narrative with facts!
Goku
@TenguPhule: Why would you crash an event for a candidate that is well-known to be on the side of Af-Americans?
Makes more sense to crash Fradulent Socialist’s event when he thinks it’s all about class
ETA: I will say this, if any good comes from Wilmer for the Democratic Party, that’s fine. I just don’t think it anything will. He’s an idiot and a dick
Turgidson
Bernie can cram the “oh gee I dunno if he’s a real progressive” horseshit right up his ass. He still talks about elections as if there’s this lurking overwhelming majority of Americans who just need to be yelled at to “STAND UP” enough times, preferably by him or someone he approves of, and once they do, every American will finally get that unicorn they’ve always wanted. And he spends way too much time insinuating and sometimes just saying that the Democratic Party is the biggest impediment to achieve Progressive Unicorn Utopia, not the GOP that is actively hoping to roll back or destroy every progressive achievement, in economics, health care, civil rights, workers’ rights, all of it, since the beginning of the 20th century.
This is a tic we’ve probably all seen in leftier-than-thou types. My brother is smarter than me and generally a deeper thinker than me, but he spouts the same shit. It’s like there’s no sense even talking about the atrocities the Republicans are trying to create on a daily basis. It’s like – we know they’re awful, but maybe if we stop paying attention to them, they’ll go away. WTF. So my political conversations with him usually somehow end up on the topic of how Obama or Hillary were huge sellouts who secretly didn’t want to do good things because they’re bought and paid for. No evidence is ever cited to back this up, other than the speeches to Goldman. (to his somewhat-credit, my brother voted for HRC despite thinking she is awful, for the Supreme Court mostly and because Trump was so obviously a demented fool) And he accepts as an immutable fact of life that Democrats have to be absolutely perfect to win in our current political and media environment, and blames them for not being perfect, rather than blaming the vapid BothSiderist EMAILS shitshow we call our political media or the GOP for turning idiotic conspiracy theories and nothingburgers into interminable “scandals” and “clouds”. He was way more outraged that Hillary had the email server, not because he thought it was really that big a deal, but because Hillary SHOULD HAVE KNOWN back in 2009 that doing it would have the exact result it did, and the stakes were too high to make such an unnecessary mistake. Really? All sorts of high ranking public officials, most of them Republicans, did the same or worse, on less well-maintained and secure systems, and we barely heard dick about it. And I wouldn’t be surprised if damn near every employee at State with the necessary security clearances to see classified information didn’t have a handful of emails containing it in the recesses of their blackberries. But he thinks Hillary is a unique fuckup for not predicting in 2009 that EMAILS would become the only thing about her 2016 candidacy that the political media ever talked about, even when she was running against a guy so preposterous, so unfit, so corrupt, that there were literally dozens of far more consequential stories about him that they might have mentioned a couple times in a year and a half. OK.
I mean, there are reasons to think poorly of recent leaders of the Democratic Party. Fine. But take a lesson from Elizabeth Warren. When prompted, she’ll say that the Democratic Party hasn’t done as well as it should have on various things and needs to do better. But she always remembers to point out that the only other national party we have, the GOP, is actively trying to destroy what is good and just in almost every area of modern life. The focus of nearly all our efforts should be on stopping them. Not on sermonizing about how is a good progressive and who is not. Jon Ossoff knows the electorate he’s dealing with better than Bernie does. I’ll let him decide how to win the 50+1 he needs in June. He doesn’t need Bernie wondering aloud whether he’s a real progressive. Just STFU and offer your support to a good candidate who is infinitely better than any of the GOP nitwits running and now the awful Karen f’ing Handel. Is that so hard?
Steve in the ATL
@Goku:
Clearly satire, as he gets paid in bitcoin
WaterGirl
@TenguPhule: Oh I totally get it. Their tactics annoyed you, so the hell with the fact that black people are being murdered in the streets by the police. Right?
Steve in the ATL
@SatanicPanic:
were we talking about my college years?
Goku
@N(R): Comrade, the CPC is very proud of you. 5000 yuan had been wired to your account
TenguPhule
@Goku: Some BLM activists did. They were heard. She was polite and agreed with them. She also pointed out she was on their side.
Again, if you want to further BLM’s goals…..
TenguPhule
@Goku: Bravo!
les
@TenguPhule:
You’re going stupid, son. BLM didn’t need to storm a Hillary event; she was already listening and had proposals to deal. And they are smart enough to know they weren’t going to influence Repuke policies. They stormed Bern because he had neither. You really don’t get what protest is about, do you?
Cacti
I see the friends of Wilmer showed up anyway.
eemom
Haven’t read the whole thread, so maybe it’s been said already….but anybody who thinks Bernie could have won is fucking delusional. Click on this and read #2.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Chris:
I’ll go as far as this:
One day in the near future, when that lying, incompetent, accomplishment-free, shit-mouthed old fuck has a stroke or slides into Alzheimer’s or dementia, I will light a candle in celebration of the fact that he will no longer be here to spew his ridiculous filth as if he had anything sensible to impart.
He isn’t a decent person – I saw his act, I know his act.
Steve in the ATL
@efgoldman:
thank you for proving the point I made about you supra!
Bill
@Cacti:
Absolutely 100% true.
And I feel quite confident Sanders agrees with you about this. His campaign included an enormous amount of rhetoric about overhauling and funding public education.
Chris
@Brachiator:
Sure, dude. Totally. Whatever you say.
NR
@Goku:
But all stupid. All I did was quote a poll. So unless you think the Harvard-Harris poll is also on the Russian payroll, the babblings you posted are both inane and irrelevant.
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule: I’m not gonna backseat drive BLM, it’s just not my place
Mnemosyne
@James J Hare:
Oh, look. White dude explains to a woman that her years of hard work get her no credit whatsoever, because now the white dudes need to vault over the rest of us who did the actual work of building the party so they can take control of what we built.
And then white dudes wonder why everyone else is pissed at them and won’t just hand over the keys.
Also, go fuck yourself.
TenguPhule
@WaterGirl: I’m sure insulting a crowd to their face as a stunt will endear them to the movement you’re trying to gain support for. Rather then going to the front runner candidate and bringing up your heartfelt issues with her in order to get her support.
Chet Murthy
@SatanicPanic: @TenguPhule: SP outed himself upthread as Latino. So I’ll out myself as South-Asian-American. Like SP, I don’t feel I have standing to criticize what and how black people and their political groups “do politics”. And “tone policing” goes back many decades. I can’t find a reference, but I remember reading about it in regards to the civil rights movement. Nothing ever changes.
TP, you’re a good guy. Read some of the history, and you’ll find that the power always, always, always criticizes the powerless for -whatever- it can get away with. As @les said, Kaepernick couldn’t win — any protest would be dissected and jeered at.
J R in WV
@agorabum:
If Bernie isn’t a Democrat, then fuck right off having him on tour with ANY Democratic officials, let alone the DNC chairman. Bernard Sanders needs to figure out if he wants to be a member of the Democratic party or not. If not, then he needs to go back to Vermont and stay there, and keep out of Democratic party issues.
He should get with the program, start his own party, become a Republican, of shut the fuck up.
Chris
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
He can’t not be a mainstream media pundit. That’s the fucking problem. His entire shtick is a “both sides do it” thing where, while trashing the Republicans appropriately, he just can’t help himself and has to insert equivalent trashing of the Democrats, despite the fact that he’s allegedly campaigning for their side.
Kropadope
@Chet Murthy:
This sort of stretch to assert a racist attitude where none was expressed is exactly why I’m confident that similar assertions being made about Bernie himself and his broader voting bloc are equally ill-sourced. There were plenty of reasons to support or not support either Hillary or Bernie. What I was trying to do was demonstrate that Bernie is not history’s greatest white supremacist monster, as the zeitgeist here seems to be, or that the person being held up as a pure paragon of virtue was not so much,
I didn’t call the black Dem political class fools. They had their own reasons to support her which were probably very similar to the reasons I supported her in the general election. The Brave Balloon Juice Bernie Hater clique, though, complete fools eagerly trashing an ally.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
It’s not about the primary, Dumbshit D Dumbshit, it’s about the dumb shit that dumbshit Bernie is saying today.
Steve in the ATL
@eemom: that is good stuff. As for this:
Well, we know that supporting the Contras was horrible. Is this one of those situations where there is no good answer? Like “impeach Trump, then Pence becomes president”?
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: I support BLM, I just have issues with some of the people who didn’t think it through when it came to trying to effectively communicate about it.
About the only thing that could have made Seattle an even worse black eye for the movement would have been if those women had been armed.
But for those ever pure of purpose, I suppose a statement still would have been made.
Goku
@NR: Look man, it’s just one poll, ok? And just because someone’s popular doesn’t mean what they’re saying is correct or good or that he’s good influence for the party. That’s argmentum ad populum.
Kropadope
@Brachiator:
You mean to say that there can be more than one type of purity troll?
Cacti
@eemom:
One of the notable differences between the 2008 and 2016 primaries is that while Barack and Hillary went hard at each other, Hillary barely laid a glove on Wilmer, while he constantly slagged her as a corrupt tool of the big bad establishment meanies everywhere.
If Wilmer runs again in 2020, his primary opponents need to take off the kid gloves and throw some body blows. Playing nice with him doesn’t work.
eemom
Another thing that may have been asked and answered: If Bernie’s gonna be the new god of the Democratic party, why the fuck isn’t he a Democrat?
What IS the answer to that?
Nelle
@Kathleen: Show any, ANY, disrespect to John Lewis and I will never listen to another word. Or listen to those who are comfortable with that person. Says an old white Kansan.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kropadope: “If I can’t have Bernie, let it all burn!” –Kropadope, 2016
(Yes, I know, Precious, you were “playing a character” that I, and I’m guessing at least half a (plastic) bottle of vodka, forced you into, somehow. Let us know when your “LEAVE BERNIE ALONE!” video is up on youtube)
Chet Murthy
@eemom: eemom, thank you so much for that link. Wow, wow, wow.
Geez, Eichenwald pulls no punches!
les
@Brachiator:
this is just butthurt because people won’t bow to the saint. Nobody is rejecting any voters who are willing to work and vote. People–me included–reject “voters” who will only work and vote if they get what they want the way they want it–and don’t want the Democratic Party. It remains to be seen whether Sanders has any ” ability to draw in people who might be receptive to the Democrat’s message.” How does bashing Ossof do that? Who did he support? Did they win? All I see is pissing and moaning about how bad Dems are.
dm
@rikyrah:
Umm….
Bernie Sanders: What does Russia have on Donald Trump?
‘How does it happen that we have a president who has nothing but nice things to say about Mr Putin?’
Sanders calls for independent probe on Russia
So… (sarcasm) how many of you suffering from Bernie Derangement Syndrome are actually Russian trolls trying to sew dissension among liberal and progressive forces opposed to Trump?(/sarcasm)
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Wealmeur : “We need a fifty state strategy.”
Reporter: “What about that dude in Georgia.”
Wealmeur: “He’s not good enough.”
He’s making the Democrats into the party that always loses by an inch.
MomSense
@TenguPhule:
I can tell you who that crowd is and they can fuck off. Seriously they whine, don’t do any of the work, and act wicked entitled.
Combo of spoiled wealthy kids and olds who want to go back to their glory/hippie days. I know the voting lists really well because I make calls for all the elections and many of the referendum questions. A bunch of Wilmer supporters are greens and independents, and not reliable voters.
We don’t like to talk about it but there is plenty of racism and misogyny on the left and especially in places like Maine. It just presents differently.
ETA meant to respond to gloryb at comment 47
TenguPhule
@Chet Murthy: I’m aware. I also live in the only state where we outnumber the white people. Significantly. I also fully support BLM. But the way that those particular women at that time crashed the Sanders events, was a real facepalmer.
The statement they wanted to make was not the statement that actually came out.
WaterGirl
@Kay: Bernie needs to take a page from the Elizabeth Warren handbook.
“I am saving the rocks in my pockets for the republicans.” There, that’s not so hard.
She said that back when people were baiting her to say she was mad at Barack Obama because she wasn’t going to get to be director of the organization she conceived of and made happen. And she’s still saying it now, like when some interviewer was baiting her last week.
les
@TenguPhule:
the stoopid, it burns. Did St. Bernie change his message? Might that be one of the goals? Are you 12?
Goku
@Kropadope:
Not history’s greatest white supremacist monster, but defitely a useless tool
eemom
@Chet Murthy:
Yeah, he’s great.
les
@les: I’d edit if I could. Do you really think BLM cares if you think they look flattering in the media?
TenguPhule
@les: Some of them did. And I respect them for the risk they took. And I respect Hillary Clinton more for listening to them and agreeing with them. And that she pointed out she was on their side and had the same goals.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Goku: also, show me a poll when Sanders has faced real opposition, as opposed to being treated either like a useful idiot (the Republicans and the Russians) or like the Billy Mummy in that Twilight Zone episode— which is why Tom Perez is bringing him around the country, so Good Bernie doesn’t wish Dem candidates into the cornfield.
and the old fuckwit still can’t not troll John Ossoff. Because he’s a dick.
Chet Murthy
@Kropadope:
[Again from what I have read} their reasons often stem from years and decades of working with her. I’m guessing that yours were more along the lines of “better than an R for sure” (which I can respect). Those two reasons aren’t even remotely similar. And again, my problem with Wilmer isn’t what he might have said ages ago. It’s what he said IN BOSTON A FEW WEEKS AGO.
Kathleen
@dm: I couldn’t find a quote about Lewis relative to Ossoff either. I seem to think earlier in campaign he did say something to that effect but I’d have to do more research. Regarding Ossoff or other candidates, maybe he needs some discernment about when to speak and when not to. What strategic outcome is supported by his wondering aloud if Ossoff is truly a progressive? I don’t trust him enough to believe he was trying to be helpful to Democrats.
TenguPhule
@les: If BLM didn’t care about their image in the media, they would be armed and a lot more proactive. But they do, so they aren’t.
NR
@Goku:
A. It’s not just one poll.
B. I was directly responding to someone who said Sanders isn’t very popular.
C. Sanders’s popularity with Democrats is directly relevant when people here say he has no business speaking on behalf of Democrats. And his popularity with women and non-white Americans is directly relevant when people here are lying and saying he only cares about white guys.
Brachiator
@Chris:
Facts are stubborn things. The Lib Dems didn’t peel away votes. They joined the Conservatives instead of their natural allies, Labour. And became irrelevant.
In the UK, a coalition of the SNP, Labour and the Lib Dems would startle the shit out of Theresa May and possibly win the snap election. But it will probably never happen, in part because neither Labour nor the Lib Dems can make themselves subordinate to the SNP.
There is no reason for people to be fighting Sanders when the real opponent is Trump. But people are expending a lot of rhetorical energy on pointless struggle.
Kropadope
@les:
He absolutely did too, he was about 20 years ahead of Hillary as far as fighting policies that are abusive to POC; policing issues, the war on drugs, wage disparities, etc. He was beating on that drum at least as far back as the 90s. That you choose to ignore that is your problem, but probably a problem for the party as a whole too. White liberal paternalistic Clinton partisans are routinely pissing on Bernie and his supporters, firmly inside the tent, and blaming them for getting piss in the tent.
Shouldn’t surprise me, they pulled this same bull less successfully against Obama in 08.
Chet Murthy
@Steve in the ATL: I’d suggest that the rectitude of Sander’s statements is pretty much irrelevant to the question at hand (in that part of the article). I also believed the Contras were the devil’s spawn. And that the Sandinistas were on the right side. None of that matters. What matters, is that the Rs would have tarred him a few feet thick. Enough to plant tree-trunks, not feathers.
TenguPhule
@les: I see you’re not familiar with the term pyrrhic victory.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Brachiator:
dm
@TenguPhule: Give up. You’re wrong.
Go here: and listen to the interview with Patrisse Khan-Cullors on the 29 March podcast. It might help you understand how to see this argument from the BLM point of view. The bit about how she got to speak in rural North Carolina was an eye-opener for this old white dude.
eemom
Shit. Where DID the “Wilmer” come from??
Jim, Foolish Literalist
that’s why Bernie! only voted for the good parts of the ’94 Crime Bill! Only Hillary is to blame for the bad parts!
Chet Murthy
@TenguPhule:
Yer joking, right? Do you remember the guy in the Wal-mart with the bb-gun who got shot by the cops? No black protestor would go -armed- — that’s like painting a target on your back. Remember that black 2nd Amendment guy in Dallas with the gun when the sharpshooter started shooting cops? He turned himself in posthaste. B/c yaknow, he’s not a *complete* moron.
Steve in the ATL
@Chet Murthy: I concur with everything you said. As the article even points out, long explanations, even if correct, are always losers.
Steeplejack
@Cacti:
Apparently some Sandernista trolls set alerts to remind them to come here if their sainted leader was mentioned, so the Wilmer protocol was devised as a stealth measure. It has been remarkably ineffective, as you can see. But no one wants to adopt my solution, the “Don’t feed the trolls” protocol.
The origin of Wilmer (credit to Jim, Foolish Literalist).
tomtofa
@efgoldman:
No, as I mentioned above, I’m not a Bernie fan. But ignoring his popularity doesn’t seem like a very profitable way to operate.
Someone else didn’t like that one of the polls was by Fox. Check out how Fox does in pollster rankings – not the best, far from the worst. Both they and Harris-Harvard are pretty transparent in their cross-tabs, survey group choices, questions, etc. There’s info there to be used. Why is he popular, why isn’t Warren nearly as popular, is there a path to getting Democrats somewhat better perceived by people based on what people seem to feel is important? My guess is that Perez is thinking about these things – it’s probably not random that he chose Sanders for the tour…
Kathleen
@HeleninEire: Wowza! Sounds lovely! But you maybe want to watch a few Law & Order/Law & Order SVU/IDTV “Your Pervy Stalky Neighbors Are Trying To Kill You reruns before you make a final decision. (Just kidding). You will make the right choice!
Steve in the ATL
@Chet Murthy:
Now I disagree with you– that’s like painting AN ADDITIONAL target on your back. Melanin provides the first target.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Who wanted to primary Obama in 2012? I don’t think it was “Clinton partisans”.
are you the dumbest fucking emo-prog in the blogosphere? Or did you lose that crown to Matt Stoller?
joel hanes
@les:
sorry if you don’t like the term
I have resolved to leave my own opinion of the term, of the people to whom it refers, and the object of their attachment, completely out of everything I write for a while. Others will of course do and say what they please.
Chris
@Steeplejack:
Or my solution, “actually perform troll control.”
chopper
@HeleninEire:
i did not read that last sentence the way you likely intended it to be read.
Kathleen
@Chris: And don’t forget the Mainslime Media drool over him because he lambasts Democrats. Keep in mind that if any of his background were revealed that might change, and Hillary has maintained her popularity after 25+ years of Media stalking and musing over every move and motivation.
I think that the fact that Bernie is the only “Liberal” they love should raises a red flag.
Goku
@NR:
A: Oh boy, Faux News, I’m sure they wouldn’t lie
B:Point taken
C:For me personally, it’s not about him “only caring about white guys” its about the fact that he attacks Dems more often than Repubs (the guys who want to create a one party police state) like what he did with John Ossoff. When asked if he supported Ossoff, he basically questioned his ideological purity.
Kathleen
@The Thin Black Duke: Bingo.
ETA: A hearty rikyrah Uh HUH. Uh HUH!
dm
@Kropadope:
….And Hillary was disguising herself as a “concerned white mother” looking for a “safe” school for her children, exposing segregation academies in 1972. And Hillary was surveying the lack of facilities for disabled children a couple of years later.
Kropadope
@Chet Murthy:
You have such insight into my way of thinking, aside from being entirely wrong. The whole lot of you sound just like a left version of in-the-bubble Republicans, asserting attitudes on behalf of people you disagree with that those people don’t actually hold. How about responding to what I’m saying, rather than put words in my mouth?
See also:@Jim, Fool: After months of dishonest crap I had to put up with from people, including you specifically, I was fed up with people on here. Rather than end my decade-long tenure on this site, lashed out at deserving liars such as yourself. Is it worse for a person like me who knows better to troll for a short period of time than a person like you who knows nothing to obliviously troll on a daily basis? Probably. But I maintain that you had it coming.
Chris
@Kathleen:
Yep. He’s loving the MSM attention, and he’s too fucking stupid to realize that the only reason he’s getting it is because they want his anti-Dem soundbites. (And that he’ll be crucified the moment anything comes down to “Bernie vs. Republican.”)
Steeplejack
@Chris:
They can be tedious and maddening, but I don’t think the Sandernistas sink to the level of banworthiness. I agree with Cole that the ban-hammer should be reserved for reserved for capital crimes: threats, personally directed ethnic and sexual slurs, etc.
efgoldman
@goblue72:
Not referring to you as a Democrat might be a start. Asshole.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kropadope: drunk again, eh?
Mnemosyne
@Chet Murthy:
That’s what gets me about this ongoing argument — Bernie says something moronic about corrupt Democrats at Elizabeth Warren’s rally, or tells the WSJ that Ossoff isn’t a real progressive, we complain, and Bernie’s fans come out of the woodwork screaming, OMG WHY CAN’T YOU GET OVER THE PRIMARY?!
It’s not about the primary anymore, punkins. It’s about the dumbass shit that Bernie is saying RIGHT NOW. Literally, dumb shit he said yesterday. Not last year. YESTERDAY.
Kropadope
@les:
I’ve seen a lot of assertions that this is what he was doing, but not yet an actual quote. Seems suspect.
Goku
@Brachiator: Hey, if Sanders can bring about something good to win elections, I’ll be glad. I just don’t see it happening based on how he has acted
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I haven’t been drunk in years, I seldom drink at all. You, however, lie every day.
MomSense
@HeleninEire:
I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean that last bit the way it sounded but hey I’m all for doing whatever makes you happy.
NR
@Goku:
Well good on you if you aren’t pushing that bullshit, but there are plenty of people here that are. You can see their comments in this very thread. They’re toxic liars, and the data I provided exposes their claims for the hollow bullshit they are.
Steve in the ATL
@Kropadope:
Then you are intentionally not looking at the many BS quotes that do exactly this. We don’t need this kind of dishonesty or trolling here. Maybe there is a Jill Stein forum somewhere on the internet where you will be a better fit.
Turgidson
@WaterGirl:
Exactly. She might say “yes, the Democrats can and should do better,” if asked a question that prompts that type of answer. But she always spends the overwhelming majority of her time unloading on the Republicans’ plan to repeal everything good and just that has happened since Teddy Roosevelt started busting trusts (you can go further back, in the case of odious creatures like Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III). And she usually points out that the Democratic Party has in fact done its share of good recently, as well, even if there is more to be done. Hell, Obama said that too, as his term wound down.
Bernie spends way too much time insinuating that the Democratic Party is just as big an obstacle to Progressive Unicorn Utopia as the GOP. What the fuck good does it do for him to do anything other than wholeheartedly support Jon Ossoff? He’s running against the odious Karen Handel, in a district full of “IGMFY” nimby-type suburban Republicans that elected Tom “Don’t Get Sick; Die Quickly” Price to the House by 30 point margins and unleashed fucking Newt Gingrich on an unsuspecting nation. He has a better idea how to compete there than Bernie and his fever dream that in every corner of the USA, there is a huge majority of people just waiting for someone (i.e., him) to yell at them to STAND UP and throw off the shackles of corrupt corporate oppression, blahblahblah. Ossoff, should he win, probably will not be a fire breathing liberal. And if he tried to be, he’d lose his next race. That’s just how it goes in some of these districts that Dems need to compete for if they want to take back the House.
Nelle
@Eljai: Why did Sander’s group of progressives only contribute $900? I mean, if he is serious….
HeleninEire
@Betty Cracker: To all of you Mom voice peeps. Thanks.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Goku: he’s still holding on to his email lists, so that it won’t be used for the unclean (also known as: People who didn’t endorse him ’16). I don’t know how that fits in with building a broader, more progressive, fifty-state party
@Kropadope: oh, you poor thing. I was thinking that, as with Peggy Noonan, “booze bag” was the charitable explanation
Steve in the ATL
@goblue72:
There is a specific reason why we do this and this thread provides many excellent examples of why doing so is helpful. It’s not meant as an insult to [Wilmer] himself; it’s purely a defensive mechanism for the BJ site.
Mnemosyne
@dogwood:
Dingdingdingdingding. You win a kewpie doll.
As I’ve been saying since before the election, Sanders was right that there was a segment of white voters out there who didn’t vote because they felt alienated from both parties. Unfortunately, it turns out that the thing that animates those voters is white supremacy, and they voted for the white supremacist candidate. We would have been much better off if Sanders had let those sleeping dogs lie, frankly.
HeleninEire
@Yarrow: LOL yeah. Thanks for that.
Kathleen
@Nelle: Amen!
Steve in the ATL
@HeleninEire: I assume you have watched all three seasons of “Father Ted.” We have friends on Achyll (west coast of Ireland, for those of you not in Eire) and it really reminds me of Craggy Island!
Uh, bless their hearts
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
If Bernie wanted to primary Obama in 2012, he would have done so. I’m pretty sure the point there was that the party may have benefitted from at least a minimum of debate over its policies rather than having 6 months of the primaries being the “Only-the-Republicans Show.” Obama may have benefitted too. Easily the best politician of my lifetime, but you saw the first debate against Rombot. An earlier opportunity to shake off some of the rust may have been helpful.
Kropadope
@Steve in the ATL: There are a lot of posts on this thread, I may have missed it. Care to enlighten me with a post number?
@Steve in the ATL: But why Wilmer specifically? I get that your trying to avoid typing the name, but what is the significance of the moniker?
gwangung
@Kropadope: Playing a part again? Hilary didn’t vote for the omnibus bill. Bernie did.
You are seriously unfamiliar with Clinton’s work in the black community. Thus, you are not to be taken seriously at all.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Sure thing, Precious. Just like Clinton “benefited” from six months of the old fool bellowing about WALL STREET SPEECHES and who is a “real progressive”, which the old idiot brought up again today, because he’s a dick.
And you really are one dumbfuck emoprog cultist
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
Here, I’ll Google that for you. From The Hill:
Now is where you start making excuses and saying that Bernie didn’t really mean to say that, what he meant to say was ….
dm
@Kathleen: fair enough. I only see the guy through print media, I don’t do TV or radio, so I miss his affect, which I guess is what sets so many people off. His words, for the most part, don’t strike me as out-of-bounds. And I’ve seen pretty obnoxious Bernie Bros (but I’ve been familiar with the type for forty years), so I can sympathize a little.
I hate to come off as a Sanders partisan here, it’s just that it seems to me that all Sanders has to do is utter the most anodyne criticism of Democrats or their tactics and people will take to their fainting couches — where they sleep through him making the remarks they wish he’d make, it seems.
I’m a little amused by the “As if a Sanders-approved progressive would get anywhere in Georgia”/”Why won’t he endorse Jon Ossoff?” flip-flop here. Campaigning for that ultrasound guy in Nebraska, on the other hand, seems like a bad move to me.
Mnemosyne
@dm:
It’s a simple question: is Bernie Sanders a Democrat?
If he isn’t — and he keeps saying that he isn’t a Democrat, he’s an independent — then why are we supposed to accept his criticism any more than we accept criticism from Republicans?
Bill
@Mnemosyne: Every single Sanders voter I know was a life long Democrat, but was happy to have a candidate from the left to vote for in the primary. We also came back home and whole heartedly worked for Secretary Clinton in the general. Many of us were more enthusiastic because he had pushed her left on a few issues.
Sanders wasn’t targeting non-voters. He was targeting the left end of the Democratic party. Turns out there wasn’t enough of us to win. But its hardly some new strategy. Hell, it was McGovern’s strategy.
The “Bernie Bros” are a small group. Annoying? Sure. But not at all representative of his voters.
dogwood
@dm:
Bernie has a less toxic, but similar problem to Trump. His support of the ultra-sound guy, like his support of Tulsi Gabbard are tied to his ego. He supports right wingers who support him.
efgoldman
@Kropadope:
Translation of the translation: He doesn’t have the first fucking idea how to accomplish this or any of his signature platitudes.
efgoldman
@Steve in the ATL:
Not as old, but definitely as cranky and tired
Turgidson
@dm:
It’s not a flip-flop to say that Bernie should be more concerned with supporting Ossoff than questioning his credentials as a progressive. He’s a solid Democrat running against an awful GOP hack. In Price and Gingrich’s old district, that ought to be plenty good enough for Bernie. I don’t think Ossoff would win if he ran as a mini-Bernie in that district and I’m not expecting Bernie to go down there and barnstorm for him – I suspect Ossoff wouldn’t want him to, either. Just have the guy’s back when asked about him, rather than playing Purity Police. Not that hard.
dm
@Mnemosyne: Hey, I brought that up earlier. And what’s your problem with him saying that, exactly?
Do you think it’s going to have any effect on the amount of money Ossoff can raise? Do you think it’s going to put a dent in Ossoff’s support in Georgia? Do you think it’s going to keep one volunteer home?
When I googled “Ossoff” and “Sanders” earlier, I found Republicans campaigning against Ossoff, calling him a “Bernie-Sanders-style Democrat”. Now Ossoff has a commercial he can run where Sanders says: “I don’t know if he’s a progressive or not. Some Democrats are progressive, some aren’t”.
Not that I think Sanders is playing 11-dimensional chess, but you people freak out at the mildest criticisms.
Mnemosyne
@Bill:
If it’s not about you, then it’s not about you. Personally, I don’t enjoy constantly being told that the party I’ve worked for all my adult life is corrupt to the core and needs to be purged and that Hillary Clinton is the most corrupt of them all, but I guess tastes differ.
maryQ
“with extra finger-wagging and pointing.”
Don’t forget the shushing, preferably to women who know a fuck of a lot about something more than he does.
magurakurin
@Kathleen: honestly, Sanders ran as a candidate for president, he is a self-declared leader of the left/progressives, he is actively working with the DNC chairperson…it is LITERALLY his fucking job to know and have known who Jon Ossoff is. He could just check the top diaries at DKOS everyday and would know more than he does. That he still doesn’t know enough about Jon Ossoff to give an opinion speaks volumes to me. He’s old. Regardless of any opinion of Sanders…he. is. too. fucking. old. Hanging our hats on an elderly gentleman (and I ain’t no spring chicken) just isn’t a good bet, no matter who it is. People die.
Chet Murthy
@dm:
Uh, no
This was *last* *month*. And as a brown man, as someone who grew up in the South, as someone who -watched- the antics of Dampnut’s little brownshirts with growing terror, Wilmer might as well have taken a dump on my front doorstep.
EFG has already coined the proper phrase for this.
Kropadope
@gwangung: Hillary, however, supported the bill without any qualifiers. Bernie used his floor time to explain that while the bill was good on balance, that issues such as police militarization, sentencing disparities, and the war on drugs were hearting people and specifically minority communities and were issues that needed to be addressed. This also serves as evidence that he’s not quite the purity pony you purport him to be.
This, seriously? Look, what I said was that Bernie was ahead of Hillary and other Democrats with a specific set of issues with particular salience to today’s politics and BLM specifically. That doesn’t mean that she never did anything for black communities in her life. I know her record. She helped black communities in some ways, in fact she was a very effective advocate. Even the bill in question was supported by black leaders and helped with a different set of problems, but had unanticipated consequences. I’m giving Bernie credit for foreseeing those consequences, nothing more.
The Brave Balloon Juice Bernie Haters don’t nuance, I know, but really please stop putting words in my mouth.
NR
@maryQ: And yet 58% of women have a favorable view of Bernie Sanders.
So perhaps your characterization of him is not accurate.
Mnemosyne
@dm:
Yes — I think “progressives” who follow Bernie will stop donating.
Yes — I think the Bernie dead-enders are going to start talking about how the Democrats are corrupt to the core and Ossoff is just another Clinton-style DNC Democrat who doesn’t deserve to win.
I doubt there will be any new volunteers from among the Berniebros, but people who are already willing to volunteer and not just run their mouths online probably will not stay home based solely on Bernie’s opinion.
I realize that you think this shit doesn’t matter and nobody really listens to Bernie’s crazy rants anyway, but they do, and they stay home, and they argue online that other people should do the same so they can stick it to the corrupt DNC. And Bernie feeds their sense of grievance with this kind of bullshit.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: Okay, this time I think you’re jumping the gun a little. Everything he said in your quote is literally true. How its being interpreted by the media seems a bit much.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne:
It looks to me like what he was doing was declining to put a label on someone that he neither knew whether the person in question wanted that label nor whether it would be helpful. You do understand the difference between not saying someone is X and saying someone is not X, don’t you?
In short, he was refusing to do what the lot of you love to do, put words in people’s mouths.
Chet Murthy
@dm:
He’s running against Karen “Coat Hanger” Handel!!!! If Wilmer can’t be bothered to give his full-throated support, what GOOD is he? Oh, and if he’s such a great pol, howcum a first-term senator (Senator Professor Warren, PBUH!) can do so much better?
Kropadope
@efgoldman:
Translation of your translation: What’s a Congress?
efgoldman
@rikyrah:
Some of us old folk do, too.
But she might not be the best choice to tour with Perez in the red to slightly purple states that the Perez/Wilmer tour is seeing.
dm
@Mnemosyne:
Because you might learn something valuable? Might not. You won’t find out until you consider it and refute it.
But I’m not saying you have to accept his criticism, just that there’s nothing wrong with him making it, and there’s something wrong with just simply dis-regarding it. You’re coming awfully close to an ad hominem fallacy here: “Sanders is not a Democrat, therefore what he says is false”.
I know we disagree on whether Sanders’ late-campaign criticisms (super-predators, Goldman-Sachs, Deborah Wasserman-Schultz) was any more than a drop in the bucket of 25-years of Clinton-deranged Republican bullshit, James Comey, and Wikileaks. I think having to actually campaign in the primary made Clinton a much stronger campaigner in the general (she was already the best candidate, but she herself acknowledged her weakness as a campaigner). If nothing else, having debates that put Democrats and Democratic ideas on national TV was better than just letting the Republican circus dominate the air for nine months.
No Drought No More
“I’m trying to temper my reaction to the aspects of the roadshow I find irritating accordingly”.
I recall that Hubert Humphrey and Scoop Jackson democrats once talked in a similar vein about George McGovern democrats.
They got over it, of course, before proceeding to triangulate their party and this country into the ditch we’re all in today.
aimai
@Bill: He is not a democrat and will not become one except opportunistically. I hate him for that. Like: really hate him.
aimai
@dm: that’s not what she is arguing at all. She is arguing that when the shit hits the fan Bernie, not being a democrat, will skate away from responsibility for running or for governing. He will always position himself outside of the circle of actual responsibility–voters have not voted for him and did not vote for him when they had a chance. So, definitionally, he does not represent Democratic voters or their actual concerns. He claims to represent a fantasy of other voters who have yet to show up to the polls for him and his imaginary policies. I object to valorizing and repeating the opinions of a guy who literally couldn’t get elected in a democratic primary and who refuses to align himself with the actual democrats, on the ground, who are fighting to take this country back and to run it. He exhibits no ethic of responsibility in a weberian sense–he attacked President Obama and Hillary Clinton quite viciously, from the left and dragged her down. So: no, I don’t want to listen to him. Not because he might be right or wrong, but because his interests are definitionally not aligned with mine. He does not respect my vote or my service to the party I think has tried to fight for me.
Kropadope
@aimai: Yeah, like how he consistently opportunistically supported the Dem leadership in both houses of Congress? If you don’t like him so much, move to VT and run against him.
Betty Cracker
@HeleninEire: Still, caution flags aside, sounds like it’s going well, and I’m vicariously thrilled for you! ?
Steve in the ATL
@magurakurin:
as much as BS disgusts me, that is clearly a bridge too far
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
And then he voted for it.
It’s really fascinating to me that Hillary Clinton got tarred with being racist for supporting a bill that Bernie Sanders voted for. Why was she more responsible for the bill’s passage than a guy who voted for it?
TenguPhule
@dm:
Her biggest weakness in 2008 and 2016 was that she was really really bad at handling unexpected situations. Give her time to prepare and she was rock solid, but improvising was not her forte. Part of the reason Sanders got so much traction in the primary was that she was sideswiped several times and wasn’t perceived as handling it with Obama’s coolness under pressure (which was the expected norm at the time).
Goku
@No Drought No More: It wasn’t so much Humphrey or Jackson, but Repukes who made the country what it is today. Civil rights happened and millions of white Americans lost their minds as a result
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Goku: Never blame a Republican for anything, it’s always the Democrat’s fault.
efgoldman
@NR:
As we have found out to our dismay, polls are not votes.
Mnemosyne
@dm:
Then we should probably consider all outside criticism of the party, right? Rush Limbaugh probably has a point that we should listen to. And Bill O’Reilly, and Donald Trump. I mean, since we can’t just consider the source and dismiss the criticism, but have to refute each piece.
We have a very serious disagreement about that, because I think that having those same right-wing criticisms parroted by someone who was purportedly criticizing from the left was enormously damaging. People heard both Trump and Sanders talk about Crooked Hillary and the corrupt DNC and figured that the charges must be true if both the conservative and the ultra-liberal say they’re true. There’s a reason why “even the liberal X says this conservative position is correct” is a common form of argument.
And the fact that Sanders is STILL pounding the “corrupt DNC” drum to this day only gives it more credibility to a lot of people. He is making things WORSE for Democrats by sticking to his claims that he got cheated and the DNC is why he lost.
That’s why I don’t take his criticisms seriously — he can’t let go of the primary and accept the fact that he lost, fair and square.
NR
@efgoldman: Then I guess the whole country loves the Republicans, since they won a bunch of elections.
Fortunately, reality is quite a bit more nuanced than that overly simplistic view of things.
efgoldman
@Chet Murthy:
Some of us are old enough to remember when MLK and Freedom Riders and John Lewis and their contemporary allies were “DOING IT RONG!!!1!!!” too.
It was bullshit then, and it’s bullshit now.
Steve in the ATL
@Mnemosyne:
It’s so unfair that 70 years of being an asshole can catch up with you!
(again–no offense to efgoldman….)
magurakurin
@Steve in the ATL: lol. But serious Markos had Ossoff on the radar long ago and DKOS raised a lot of money for him. And there are a lot of folks over there who fought very hard for Sanders. Bernie is a slacker who doesn’t do his homework.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: on today’s episode of ignoring the point…
Jack the Second
I know I’m an idiot for farting into the wind of 400+ comments —
The thing that bothers me, at the end of the day, about the Bernie movement (aside echoing from Mnemosyne’s sentiments) is that it’s about Bernie. It’s not a political movement, it’s a cult of personality.
I supported Hillary Clinton in the primaries and in the general election, though not as vocally as I now wish, and the reasons don’t now matter. And now that her campaign and probably her career as an elected politician is over, I honestly don’t give a shit about her anymore. Well, that’s not true – I’m a pretty caring person, and I worry about a lot of people, even people I’ve never met. And I’d be thrilled for the opportunity to meet her, and would tell everyone about the experience for weeks or years afterwards.
But politically? Don’t give a shit.
What I care about now, is what I always care about: the goals and purpose of the Democratic party. I care about fixing immigration policy so that we don’t have an underclass of exploited undocumented immigrants, and making it easier for people who want to come to this country, for opportunity or refuge or just because it’s still sometimes a pretty nice place, to get here and stay here. I care about protecting voting rights. I care about protecting the gains we’ve made in guaranteeing everyone access to healthcare and expanding it to really be everyone. I care about stopping the spiral of inequality in this country. I care about figuring out how the fuck to crank down the racism and and racial inequality and police violence. I care about creating a country where everyone has the opportunity to thrive and be rewarded for it and have a good life. I care about the ~10% of people who are faced with food insecurity in the richest goddamn country on the planet. I care about ratcheting down military spending and imperialism without ending Pax Americana leaving a power vacuum for Putin and China to fill. I care about ending the tyranny of the NRA and gun violence. I care about protecting and extending access to women’s health services, and abolishing the idea that women’s health services are somehow optional.
If Bernie is working towards those goals, fuckin’ ‘ey.
I don’t care about Bernie’s political career, and people who are more worried about who’s leading the parade than that it’s actually marching in the right direction and making progress.
magurakurin
@Kropadope: not sure why comparing Clinton and Sanders on a vote that happened over 20 years ago should be the point.
I want to know, why doesn’t Bernie Sanders still know nothing about who Jon Ossoff is? I’m pretty sure could even actually pick up the phone and call Jon Ossoff and he’ll answer that call from the senator.
Iowa Old Lady
@HeleninEire: Duh. Yes.
ETA: He’s not a serial killer, is he?
TenguPhule
@efgoldman: This. A thousand times this.
magurakurin
@Jack the Second: I read it, and agree.
dogwood
@Steve in the ATL:
I don’t really care that much about what Bernie says or doesn’t say about guys like Osseff. I get pissed when he goes on the road with Perez and does nothing when the crowd boos Tom. The guy has no class or decency. Perez is a good man for taking this abuse in service of a higher purpose, but holy hell, Sanders is a clueless , classless asshole for sure.
JPL
@Steve in the ATL: After being at a few larger polls yesterday, I’m feeling better about Ossoff’s chances, if he can keep those who voted for him.
Kropadope
@magurakurin: Not sure why you can’t tell the difference between not knowing who someone is and not knowing whether they want a particular label ascribed to them.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
What was your point of bringing up “superpredators” as a bad thing that Clinton said, and then bringing up Bernie’s speech on the bill as a good thing he said, if not to try and create a false contrast between them.
Again: Clinton was criticized as a racist for supporting a bill that Bernie voted for. Why does he get a free pass for that vote while Clinton gets excoriated for using the wrong word in an interview? That vote was more consequential to the passage of the bill than anything Clinton said.
dm
@Chet Murthy: Ah, that was the horrible thing he said in Boston last month.
I have to admit that I think there are Trump voters who are reachable, but I see your point — it sounds like Sanders was exhonerating all of them, including the neo-Nazis we’ve seen on parade since the election. I assume he wasn’t, but I’m disposed to be charitable. Clinton, at least, said only “half” (and got tarred with saying “all” by people who weren’t disposed to be charitable).
Chet Murthy
@Kropadope: Then he could have said “Progressive? What difference does that make? He’s A DEM! That’s what counts — he stands for what the Dems stand for! ACA! Patriotism! Good Government! Head Start! etc”.
Instead, it was throwing shade. Throwing shade.
The Rs have this rule, eh? Or used to, until Dampnut’s run. Thou Shalt Not Attack a Fellow R. Wilmer? Not so much.
Goku
@Kropadope: Today on the Kropadick Show, a total loser ( Kropadick) argues with strangers on the internet for hours on a blog who’s hate his guts…
magurakurin
@Kropadope: He said he didn’t know anything about him. Seriously, it’s just bullshit. You can’t claim to be the guy who is going to change who and what the party is and not then obsessively find out all you can about everyone you can. Or at least hire staff that provide you the information. They have been talking the race in Georgia for months at KOS. No way he shouldn’t have been following it and completely aware.
He wants to be the leader. He wants to be the gatekeeper. Fine.
then. do. your. job.
whatever. He’s old. He won’t be around much longer. Even if I am totally wrong and he is the political savior of all time…people die. many, many die in their 70’s. It’s slim odds bet.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Kropadope: But you guys are constantly telling us Bernie should be calling the shots and yet he doesn’t know anything about this guy? And stop with “words in the mouth” disingenuous bullshit, Bernie is CLEARLY saying Ossoff might be one of the those Democrats. He’s dog whistling with that comment and you damn well know it.
Steve in the ATL
@Jack the Second:
Dude, we are going for a TBogg unit. Don’t be a downer! I’m boycotting the newer thread anyway since geg6 stole my joke by sneakily posting it several minutes before I did. And don’t let my comments on that thread give you the idea that I’m not actually boycotting it.
Also, I agree with your post.
efgoldman
@dm:
There is a time when every competent politician knows either to keep his mouth shut or to have an anodyne answer.
Chet Murthy
@dogwood: I’m glad you mentioned the booing of Perez. Wilmer should have stood up and stood with Tom, shushed the crowd. It was his -job- to do that. Saint Ronaldus Magnus is laughing up his mouldering sleeve. His rule “never attack a fellow R” was important to the R’s success.
Steve in the ATL
@efgoldman: apropos of nothing, rumor has it that Jeb(!) Bush and Derek (limited range) Jeter are teaming up to buy the Miami Marlins. So now the white hot heat of my hatred for the NE Patriots may be edged out by my already white hot but soon to get even hotter like whiter than a Wilmer rally hatred for the Yankees. So go Sox!
Duke's Archives
@Steve in the ATL: Then there’s Wonkette where they reach about four TBogg units a night, Bigly!
efgoldman
@Kropadope:
Have you blanked on the NYDN interview? Signature issue: break up the banks. How will you accomplish that? I don’t know.
As the RWNJs are finding out, platitudes are easy, doing things is hard.
Mnemosyne
@Steve in the ATL:
Sadly, I have to drop out of the TBogg Unit effort — I had a project dropped in my lap that must be done before we leave today so we can send to Spain tonight. Later, jackals!
efgoldman
@No Drought No More:
I liked and respected McGovern. I voted for him.
Remind me how many states he won.
efgoldman
@aimai:
Thank you. As usual, you say in one comment what I try to get across in a dozen.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: Actually my original intent wasn’t about the super predator comment, but about the racist remarks she and her surrogates made during the 08 primary against Obama. I didn’t type the word super predator once, people just assumed that’s what I meant.
I’m happy to draw the contrast between them as far as that law. I didn’t fault either of them, I’m just giving Bernie credit for seeing the flaws even though he judged it as a worthwhile initiative on the whole. Arguing that Bernie isn’t ignorant about policing issues wrt race doesn’t detract from Clinton.
efgoldman
@Steve in the ATL:
None taken. All those old, racist, Foxbot Klannity watchers are assholes first class with oak leaf clusters.
dm
@dogwood:
That would be bothersome, but: this is how fake news gets started.
I google for this story and what I find are stories on Breitbart and Townhall. Hmm. Eventually, I find the Washington Post described it as “a handful of boos”,
and you can hear it for yourself, here. You can almost hear the boos amid the applause.
So, like, neither Sanders nor Perez were on stage at the time to say or do or even hear anything.
On the other hand, the Post story is primarily on Bernie-supporters grumbling about old wounds.
Jack the Second
@magurakurin: Eh, your life expectancy goes up as you go older – the life expectancy of a 76 year old male is ~10 years.
Derailing survey: I think 76 is getting into the second age band where you start qualifying a lot statements about that person with “for his age” again (“He’s quite healthy, for his age.”, “He’s very active, for his age.”, “He’s still sharp, for his age.”), mirroring the childhood qualifications (“He’s very mature, for his age.”)
What’s the statement you’d make about the oldest people qualifying them as young, and vice versa? I could see “He’s very accomplished, for his age” being said about people until their 30s or 40s; meanwhile, I could see “He’s quite handsome, for his age” being said for someone as early as their 50s.
Kropadope
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: No, I don’t know that he’s dog-whistling Ossoff because, unlike you, I’m not eager to make the least charitable possible interpretation of any statement made by a person I don’t like and, yes, stuff those words in their mouth. Additional example, when did I say Bernie should be calling the shots?
@Goku: By “everyone hates me” do you mean a dozen dedicated liars, one of whom you’re likely a sock puppet for? Or do you mean the great majority of Juicers whom I generally get along with and who mostly agree with me about all but a couple issues?
J R in WV
@tomtofa:
You dumbass, Hillary Clinton is the most popular politician in the United States, she WON the fuckin Election by 3,000,000 votes!!! If Trump had a shred of honor he would have instructed his electors to vote for the person who won the election, But, no surprise, he has no honor, and took the electoral vote in spite of losing the actual election.
Sanders didn’t even win the Democratic primaries, he isn’t even the most popular Democrat, ’cause he isn’t a Democrat for one thing!!! And he’s an old-line marxist for another. I knew communists, real ones, back in the late 1960s, and they all suck. Bernie Sanders sucks too, because he’s not in favor of the American systems of life.
Kropadope
@J R in WV: I’d argue that Barack Obama is the most popular politician in the US.
Also, it’s possible to be more popular with the Democratic primary electorate while being less popular with the broader population, regardless of the particular two politicians you’re discussing.
dm
@efgoldman: Tenguphule, reread EFG’s comment.
@Mnemosyne:
He has a funny way of pounding that drum, touring with the chairman of that corrupt organization. I’ve found his followers grumbling about that, yes, but all I find are him saying things, like, “They should have spent more money in Kansas”. That’s not corruption, and maybe they should have (Perez goes on to say that there was more help than just money sent into Kansas).
Oh, and all you people complaining about his remarks about Ossoff, how about this? “He’s not a progressive”, then:
Steve in the ATL
@J R in WV:
Impossible–impeccable sources have assured us that her use of a private email server for personal emails, that was never hacked, unlike the State Department server, makes her history’s greatest monster. But we will get the last laugh when our girl Jill Stein wins 53 states in 2020!
dm
@Chet Murthy: Please go and watch the “booing” here. If you listen carefully, you can actually hear it. Neither Perez nor Sanders were on the stage at the time.
This is how the story that “Al Gore claimed that he invented the internet” got started. It’s got a little more substance to it than the “Pope Francis endorsed Donald Trump”, but not much more.
Chet Murthy
@dm:
Two thoughts: (1) in short, poc and women, sit down, we’ll get to your issues once all the white men have been taken care of
(2) Ta-Nehisi Coates and many feminists & LGBTQ actvists (I can’t think of names ATM) have done EXCELLENT work demonstrating conclusively that “social issues” are economic. That redlining, wage equity, domestic partnership rights, etc, ettc, etc, are ALL economic issues, and yet they’re also “identity group issues”.
So no, you’ve just proven the point of those people who think Bernie’s ready to throw people of color and women under the bus.
Thanks for that.
ETA: Oh, forgot to add: the right to control if and when one has children, is an economic issue.
Kropadope
@dm: @dm: On point.
Chet Murthy
@dm: That’s a fair cop. I retract that criticism.
chopper
come on you shitbirds, we haven’t had a tbogg in a dog’s age. FUCK BERNIE HE’S HISTORY’S BIGGEST CHOAD
NR
@Chet Murthy:
So economic issues only affect white men now?
What an incredibly racist and sexist viewpoint to hold.
Steve in the ATL
Looks like those morons in Milton were the only ones who voted majority for Karen Handel. Almost every neighborhood went plurality or majority (including mine!) for Ossoff. That makes me feel better about the runoff!
A Ghost to Most
Damn, almost a TBogg; people must be riled up today.
Eta: I see the wilmers arrived; that explains a lot.
dm
@Chet Murthy:
You’re right about that. I agree that Sanders’ one-note lunch-bucket socialism is over-simplified and is just one strand of what the Democratic party (and progressive allies) should push for, and maybe not even the most important one. Though: the working class is mostly (or nearly so) female and not-white, so….
Steve in the ATL
1. Fuck the Yankees
2. Fuck the Patriots
3. Fuck the Cowboys (Dallas or OK State–your choice)
4. Han didn’t shoot first
Discuss until we reach 500 comments
Kropadope
@chopper: Sorry, won’t happen. Goku’s apparently the only one allowed to spend plural hours arguing his viewpoint. It would be unseemly for anyone else to do so, especially if you have a different viewpoint.
A Ghost to Most
@Steve in the ATL:
Fuck the Penguins.
Steve in the ATL
@A Ghost to Most: no objection here. Go Blackhawks!
Kropadope
@Steve in the ATL: Only Han shot.
But, yeah, fuck the Yankees.
chopper
@Kropadope:
oh, boo fucking hoo.
J R in WV
@Bill:
And you’re correct about that. The problem here is that Bernie isn’t one of US, and makes no pretension of being one of us. I have no room in my tent for racists, misogynists, and people who dump on those of us who work hard to elect Democratic politicians at all levels. If you looked me up, you would see lots of donations at the FEC, but you wouldn’t see the afternoons and evenings of phone banking for Democratic candidates for years.
How much work has Bernie done for Democratic candidates in general? ZERO! That work is how you get to deserve to be in the tent with the other Democrats. Bernie hasn’t done the work to get into the tent.
chopper
@Steve in the ATL:
hey guys, I’m looking for a new laptop. should I buy a mac?
Steve in the ATL
@Kropadope:
I don’t watch Star Trek, but was hoping to generate enough controversy to get us that coveted TBogg unit. I need it to beef up my LinkedIn profile.
chopper
and what’s a better editor, vi or emacs?
dm
@dogwood: It turns out that Tom Perez is supporting the ultrasound guy, too. He’s running for mayor of Omaha.
Kropadope
@J R in WV: If Bernie hasn’t done any work for Democrats, what do you call what he’s doing with Tom Perez right now, what he did with Hillary Clinton last fall, or his consistent support for Dem leadership in Congress?
The only cult I see around Bernie are his cult of haters who would piss all over any Democrat impure enough to consider him an asset. Good thing Perez isn’t on your page.
Wait a minute, are you all PUMAs from 08? That must be it.
Kropadope
@Steve in the ATL: Hahaha, I see what u did there.
Chet Murthy
@dm: Did you see that recent article about the death of retail jobs? The number I remember is 89k jobs since Oct 2016. Which seems incredible. But nobody’s talking about that, and why? B/c those kind of jobs were always poorly-paid, and staffed by women (and esp. of color). No constituency there, let’s go interview another ex-coal-miner. Similarly, nurses, home health aides, and other jobs staffed overwhelmingly by women, don’t get much attention,compared to Big Manly Truck Driver.
So sure, some amount of “fight the class war” is OK, but you can’t separate that from the fact that many jobs are gendered, and underpaid because of that gender disparity. Coates is -right-: identity politics -are- about economic issues — just economic issues that (white) men don’t want to accept.
Ruckus
@chopper:
Just got home and started to comment and saw your remark. Nice.
I’m for anyone who actually supports democrats. Especially actual ones running for office right now. Bernie Sanders isn’t doing that. I went to the DNC website to see if there is a contact page and at the top is a picture of Bernie and Tom Perez and join them in their tour. I was going to contact them and let them know that 1. Bernie is not a Democrat. 2. He is pissing off a lot of long time Democrats because he is not one and is actively not supporting Democratic candidates running now.. 3 So why the hell is this non Democrat being taken around and sabotaging the Democratic party?
Of course they don’t have a contact page. So I may have to call them and give them a piece of my mind. We gave him a chance, until he proved to be just an old fart hippy with unworkable ideas and a palpable dislike of anyone not to his left. He is doing more harm than any possible good.
Ruckus
@chopper:
Is that a mac and cheese?
dm
@J R in WV:
Well, I understand that he’s touring with the chairman of the DNC right now. And that, for some reason, the Democrats in the Senate have made him their outreach chair. And he raised a lot of money for down-ballot candidates last year (after the primaries) and is doing so this year (not Jon Ossoff, the jerk, though Kos seems to have that covered).
That’s a sizeable “ZERO”.
However, he’s not handed over his mailing list, saying he doesn’t want the Democrats to treat it like an ATM machine (and if it means I only get fifty fund-raising messages from James Carville at the end of every quarter instead of 100, I’m a little sympathetic with that move).
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Kropadope:
Fixorated for you.
maryQ
@NR: and a majority of white men voted for Trump, so…
Kropadope
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Reflexive Bernie haters here and elsewhere probably hurt Clinton more with Bernie’s voters than Bernie did. He campaigned for her, endorsed her, fundraised for her and the party. What the fuck did you do besides tell a bunch of D primary voters that you don’t want their votes?
Miss Bianca
@Bill:
Yeah, I remember how well that worked out for McGovern. Have yet to see any compelling evidence that it would work better now. The simple inconvenient truth that most leftists want to ignore is that in a racist society, leftist economic populism isn’t actually all that popular – too many white people refuse to support redistribution if they think their “hard-earned money” is going to Those People.
TenguPhule
@Steve in the ATL: You’re doing it on purpose.
The only thing worse then a Clinton/Sanders rehash is a Star Wars vs Star Wreck foodfight.
dm
@Chet Murthy: Yes, I did see that. I believe the 89 thousand number — it was 39 thousand a month for the past couple of months alone (incidentally 89 thousand is about how many coal miners are left, I think). Truly scary.
Another aspect of that is that these are also the entry-level jobs that high-school kids can work at to gain employment experience. Those jobs are disappearing so you have massive teenage unemployment as well, and no way out.
TenguPhule
@chopper:
That depends, how much are your organs worth and do you know a good pawnshop?
maryQ
@Jack the Second: great post. Speaking of immigration, in 2007, a Republican President and a Democratic confess came close to passing comprehensive immigration reforrm. The bill was far from perfect , but it was a damn but better than the current situation. It almost passed. Except BernieSanders joined the dying blue dogs in opposing it. The blue dogs of course did two much like brown people. But Saint Bernard wanted a perfect bill, not a corrupt bill thatmoatactual democrats would support. So he did not support it. And it did not pass.
Imagine what Obama and the supermajority could have done to tweak the imperfect Bush bill, had it passed.
Imagine.
You are spot on. Bernie is a grandstander and a spotlight whore, he is incapable of getting anything done, because he is ignorant as all fuck about how politics works.
TenguPhule
@dm:
But those prostitution and drug dealing numbers are just soaring!
Kropadope
@TenguPhule: I’m not crazy about Star Wars or Trek, but Star Trek is easily superior in virtually every incarnation.
Chris
@maryQ:
I’ve been saying for a while now that the Berniebros were indistinguishable from the Blue Dog/DLC/Liebermanite types, and this seems like more evidence of it.
J R in WV
@Goku: Come on, Bernie spent his honeymoon 40 years ago in The Soviet Union. To think that he’s not captive to Russian interests is to be not thinking about the issue!!
And his campaign manager, Ted Devine, right? He is as beholden to Russian interests as Paul Manafort (Trump’s campaign manager) is.
Steve in the ATL
@Kropadope:
SHOTS FIRED!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
My god, it’s like nutty Jane Sanders and goofball Comic Book Guy designed you in a lab
TenguPhule
@Kropadope: Voyager. I rest my case.
ETA: And every next generation movie. The money could have been burned and still would have been put to better use.
MoxieM
@Bill: criminy. there speaks another “understanding” white man. save me! or as my state flag says, “come over and save us”. really it does, horrific …. go sew your own tent.
TenguPhule
@Steve in the ATL: Deflector shields at full power!
NR
@maryQ: So? I fail to see how that has any relevance to what I said.
J R in WV
@HeleninEire:
Get a photo of his passport ID page and send it to someone you trust before you go away with someone you just met.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@TenguPhule: Fuck you First Contact was a good movie
ETA: Also DS9 and Seasons 3-6 of TNG
Steve in the ATL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Zing!
chopper
COME ONNNNNNNN
joel hanes
@TenguPhule:
The only thing worse
vi vs. emacs
Steve in the ATL
@joel hanes: gif or jif?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Steve in the ATL: Just trying to get to 500
chopper
ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED
Jim, Foolish Literalist
TBOGG! ! ! ! ! !
ETA: @chopper: Drat! I took the time to embolden
ETA, A: @Steve in the ATL: Skippy
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: So, I’m confused. Is Bernie too purity-focused, too compromising, too Bernie, or something else?
@TenguPhule: C’mon, First Contact deserves another mention as being awesome. Voyager was perfectly serviceable entertainment. TNG itself has easily earned the days of my life it has eaten up. Bonus, I haven’t seen a Star Wars movie I enjoyed as much the Star Trek reboot series. I still can’t with TOS, but even their movies were good. I think a movie pacing serves Star Trek well.
Gian
Wow nothing to get the post count up like re fighting the 2016 primary.
the 2012 GOP primary was a ton of fun. Newt’s child labor and moon colony.
Rick Santorum saying what he was thinking out loud, and then saying he meant “blah” people not “black”
BruceFromOhio
Fuck, a TBogg unit re-re-fighting the last election, and I was off drinking with friends.
Gillibrand and Warren are just getting warmed up. The Clintons and the Obamas are taking a breather, and will be back later. Perez better take a deep breath as the marathon kicks in. Get Democrats to the polls, and give the independents and “oh shit now he’s president” voters someone worthwhile to vote for. End of story.
*munches popcorn*
Steve in the ATL
@BruceFromOhio:
I’m convinced that this played a big role in Jon Ossoff’s success yesterday.
Oh shit–we’re over 500–ignore my post.
BruceFromOhio
I’m certain you will bear it with dignity, and somehow get by. No, really!
Ella in New Mexico
My new mission/message to my Sander’s supporting family and friends is as follows:
This is a new era in the DNC. If BS wants to help us take back the true majority we represent,GREAT. But Bernie needs to change his political party status to “Democrat” from here on out. If he won’t do that, particularly given the great guy we have in Tom Perez leading things, then people really need to question what his motives are, particularly given the fact that we have a traitor who is still conducting his private business in the White House right now, and a Congress that is looking the other way to maintain their majority.
Bernie needs to care more about preserving the fucking Republic than anything else right now. Everything else, from “income inequality” to “Medicare for all” is second. If he doesn’t, then all of us need to kick him to the curb.
joel hanes
@Steve in the ATL:
We called one of my colleagues “That Choosy Mother…” for many years,
because choosy mothers choose jif.
Miss Bianca
@Ella in New Mexico: word.
Steve in the ATL
@joel hanes: it always reminds me of the old joke (and it is old) “yo momma so fat when she took the Pepsi challenge, she chose Jif!”
Kropadope
@BruceFromOhio: The supposed shallow Dem bench is a lie. Perez appears to have good organizational experience for rebuilding the party downballot. I’d like to see him run for public office at some point. I’d like to see Gillibrand and Warren run for the big seat, among a fair few others.
geg6
@James J Hare:
You fuck off, you fucking asshole. Bernie isn’t a Democrat. He is in my tent pissing on everyone who paid for, assembled and maintain that fucking tent. You seem to think I’m some Clinton cultist, which just shows what a stupid ignorant mother fucker you are. You don’t have a fucking clue about anything. You’re another fucking white guy who seems to think that everything revolves around your fucked up issues with the Clintons. You are a fucking clueless idiot. Get away from me, you dumbshit shit white man. If you haven’t figured out why so many women and people of color have no use for your buddy Bernie, you aren’t on our side either. No better than a fucking Republican as far as I’m concerned. Jesus. I just love how white men like you and Bernie are so quick to tell someone like me that I need to bow down to your superior knowledge and that I should just calm down and quit being so emotional because of course I am fixated on Hillary and nostalgia for the 90s and I shouldn’t worry my little head about it. And should just continue to do all the grunt work and providing the funding while you run the show. Yeah, sure. Fuck that. I’m done being taken to granted and being talked down to by white men. And Bernie and his fanbois are the poster boys for that shit. They, and presumably you, are not my allies. It’s people like you who need to learn a fucking lesson about what you “progressives” can get done without women and people of color.
I’m so over white men! 80% of you are completely worthless to humankind.
geg6
@Kropadope:
Sorry, I don’t record my conversations with neighbors, acquaintances, and strangers I meet. But every conversation I have had with a Bernie supporter was completely rife with unhinged CDS along with pooh poohing of all women’s and racial issue concerns. Lots of talk about economic “justice” and pronouncements of the unimportance of social, racial and gender issues. No sense of how those things are intertwined. So having heard them ad nauseam, I am done with them. They don’t care about anyone but themselves, no different than libertarians, IMHO.
Kropadope
@geg6: I have zero clue about your personal demographic information, but virtually everyone I’ve spoken to riding on your Bernie rage train has been white and predominantly male. Also typically older. Your side is wracked with old school liberal paternalism.
You’re falsely perpetuating an attitude that Bernie has no support among women and minorities and, more falsely still, is unconcerned with the well being of the same. The rest of us are duty-bound to agree or we’re unworthy of the party. This attitude makes straight white male liberal paternalists get over their guilt for their advantages.
Kropadope
@geg6: Funny, virtually every Bernie supporter I’ve met supported Clinton in the general and cares very deeply about women and minorities. Some are, in fact, women or minorities. Weird, huh?
chopper
@geg6:
if you wanted to boil down my attitude regarding the whole primary into two short sentences, that would be it. bravo.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kropadope: you really aren’t well
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You really have nothing to say.
@chopper: An ally is an ally, fuck the labels.
Tripod
don’t make no waves, don’t back no losers
Wimer has failed repeatedly on both counts. Perez and co. will give him too much rope in a role he’s not suited, and will exit stage left snapping about DNC bad faith. His zealots will move on to the next shiny object, and his vanity run in 2020 will amount to nothing.
It’s the Eugene McCarthy career arc.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Not if they’re shooting at you, you screechy crackpot cultist
Jonathan Holland Becnel
New stats out show Bernie is most popular politician in America.
Funny how his support is highest among minorities?
chopper
@Kropadope:
people who piss in my tent aren’t “allies”.
Captain C
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I keep saying that there are at least half a dozen lines of negative attack, any one or two of which would have sunk his campaign, all of which probably would have been used:
*Vox Tax Calculator: A series of ads which, if honest, would point out that according to this calculator, a middle class family of four would have to pay $500/month more in taxes so Those People could get free, undeserved benefits. If dishonest, they’d exaggerate the total and the defense of “it’s only $500/month” would be untenable. Saying that it would even out with savings in insurance and medical costs would be punctured by pointing out that many people would in fact lose money on the deal if their work insurance was heavily subsidized (note: this would be the case for me; I wouldn’t mind paying about $500/month more in taxes if I knew it would give us solid universal health care, and I can (barely) afford it, but most people aren’t in that boat and can’t afford to be that generous).
*Bernie’s bungling of the Daily News question of how to break up the banks, mixed with other times he flat out said “I don’t know” on camera. This would be used to make him look clueless.
*Likewise, a montage of all the times he angrily walked away from a pointed or annoying question (“when the going gets tough, Bernie goes away”). Not necessarily fair, but politics ain’t beanbag, unless beanbag is made a part of a full-contact Calvinball game.
*Bernie’s failure to reveal his own taxes (he wants transparency for others, but not himself), possibly mixed in with accounts of his electricity-stealing and “ask the hardware store guy how after we get the job” contracting business to make him seem like just another sleazy politician.
*Needless to say, his rape fantasy and child sexuality writings could be quoted out of context to make him seem like a creepy pedo perv. Don’t think this wouldn’t happen.
*Yes, this is Red-baiting, but targeted ads about his stint as an elector for the Socialist Workers Party, possibly spun as “a party too radical for Lenin and Stalin!”
*His wife’s golden parachute from a college that soon after went bankrupt; it would be heavily implied, or even stated outright, that the bankruptcy was due to her shady dealings.
And I’m sure I’m missing at least one or two more…
Kropadope
@chopper: It isn’t “your” tent and the ones I see pissing on the inside are the ones raging against Bernie.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Captain C: foreign policy– ironically the area where I may most agree with him. I think we on the left underestimate how many people think every breath they take is bravely stolen from an Isis-man who’s hiding under the bed and behind the bushes, waiting to lop their heads off. Old Wavey-Hands wasn’t going to reassure those people
He was also unemployed until the age of IIRC thirty-seven Not a great selling point
chopper
@Kropadope:
the tent is the democratic party, and bernie sure as shit is pissing all over the inside of it while fuckbags like yourself cheer him on.
Kropadope
@chopper: I’m not cheering on any pissers. I’m trying to disabuse of you of some false notions you hold, particularly where attitudes I don’t hold are being ascribed to me.
chopper
@Kropadope:
shrug. believe whatever the fuck you want, shitbird.
Kropadope
@chopper: And I’m supposedly the one being uncivil.
Gravenstone
Wow. a T-Bogg unit with relatively minimal input from the usual Berniebros. However, kropaDOPE has stepped up to perform yeoman’s service in the role. And our buddy Bechamel has slunk in in the closing moments to make another irrelevant fart in the wind.
ruemara
Wow. A TBogg unit and just full of exemplary whitesplainin’ of the personality cult. The women and people of color who love Bernie are not as much as those who don’t. They are also largely not part of the Dem party workbase who turn out to help each election. So, y’all keep trying to make Bernie happen. Tell us how “popular” he is, while showing that tin ear to how constant media attention drives popularity. You got played with Bernie and your winning coalition lost in the primaries, because you didn’t have the range to capture POC. Your smattering wasn’t the base. You want the Dem party, you better learn to listen to the base. You don’t want to listen because we won’t worship Bernie Fucking Backbencher Low Information Cheap Revolutionary Ripoff Artist Sanders, that’s too damned bad. 4 years of Trump will devastate women, lgbtqia and POC. It will harm the earth. 4 more years could be exponentially worse. But if you think we’re inclined to just do as you arrogant liberal SOBs want for self preservation, fuck off. More and more, I see POC saying we can all ride down together rather than take any more crap saying we need to sit down and do as white male liberals want. Keep yapping.
Kropadope
@ruemara: Who is telling whom to sit down and shut up?
Corner Stone
This motherfucker. Still, he persisted.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
The woman who knows who the actual base of the Democratic Party is and what they do is telling the johnny-come-lately Berniebros to shut up, sit down, and learn something for once in their pampered lives instead of assuming that, like their hero, they can jump to the top of an organization without having to do any of the actual work to get there.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne</a@Mnemosyne: >: The paternalism, it burns
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
Yep, women telling men what to do is all about paternalism.
You realize we’re laughing at you, right?
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: No, bit older straight white folk asserting they know what’s better for younger voters and POC they know what’s best for them is certainly about paternalism.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
Yes, there’s nothing more paternalistic than electing a woman as president and letting women run the show. We need to get away from paternalism and elect a man as president instead!
Plus you seem to be mighty confused about the genders, races, and sexual orientations of most of the people you’ve been arguing with here. You have at least one of the three wrong with ruemara, just for starters.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
Srsly, this is getting written down in my journal as the day that a guy told a group of women that they were acting “paternalistic” towards him. I honestly cannot stop laughing right now.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: I didn’t really have ruemara in mind. Your smug white ass definitely qualifies. You’re putting your irrational hatred of all things Bernie into every not white mouth in the D party, much like you falsely assert my disinterest in the civil rights of others. How have you not run out of straw yet?
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
It’s not the ass that qualifies someone to be paternalistic or not. It’s the other side of the body. And I don’t have that equipment, my dear.
But, please, keep telling women that they’re being “paternalistic” and then getting mad when they can’t stop laughing. This is the funniest tantrum I’ve seen around here in months. How dare these women laugh at me when I tell them they’re being paternalistic?!?
ETA: Not listening to the old white guy makes me paternalistic. You’re killing me here.
joel hanes
got schooled, but can’t learn
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: Paternalism is more about power and privilege than actual literal being a father. “Oh, I’m taking such good care of my kids. I know what’s best. The ones who don’t see that just are just being bad.”
Jim and goku, by the way, totally women. Right?
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
It’s not a gender-neutral term no matter how much you try to pretend it is. Particularly when a man is applying it to a group of women and claiming that they’re being “paternalistic” towards him by not supporting the man he preferred as a leader over the woman they preferred as a leader.
ETA: Don’t know about goku. Geg6 is a woman, which is why she specified in her comments that she’s a woman who’s pissed off that all of the women she knows who’ve worked hard for the party are being ignored and shunted aside by men like you. But I guess that’s just another example of her being paternalistic.
?BillinGlendaleCA
Damn, I leave for the Huntington and dinner, and this thread is still going…
ETA: It’s like fucking Energizer Bunny of threads. It keeps going and going and going…
Mnemosyne
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
It’s almost dead. We all wanted a TBogg unit before the night was over.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: Again with the words in the mouth. It’s not for not supporting one candidate or another. It’s for your sense of superiority. And if I called you materialistic, not only would it not convey the right image, but we’d be having a discussion about sexism right now. One you’d actually be justified in. I can’t have that.
ETA: and once again, I don’t want to shunt anyone aside. I just don’t want to be shubted aside myself.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
So does gender matter in your deluded martyrdom fantasy about “paternalism”, or doesn’t it, you demented emo-prog? Or do you just want to fake some stigmata and pretend you’re a millennial (your fellow traveller Dwight already tried generational fluidity. It’s just sad)
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I’ve always thought that ‘paternalism’ especially when used with respect to governance took the “father knows best” aspect of the definition and un-gendered it.
Captain C
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
They would add that to the freeloader/thief series, most likely. Definitely not a good look.
And I forgot about the Russia honeymoon, and I think there was some loud Castro and Sandinista support in the ’80s at well. Again, this is red-baiting, but would be effective in certain quarters, especially if quoted out-of-context.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kropadope: Oh, wait; you’re the moron who thought that a primary would have been good for President Obama in 2012. That never ends well for a sitting president. Remember Jimmy Carter’s second term, me either.
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m absolutely a millennial. Several balloon Juicers have met me in person. And I can simultaneously point out the facts relating to someone’s point while also arguing against the premise. That seems entirely in-bounds.
Also, emphasis on Major’s point.
Kropadope
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Jimmy Carter’s primary with Ted Kennedy was hotly contested. Obama would never have drawn a truly credible challenge. Participating in a debate or two couldn’t have hurt.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kropadope: There’s no way to predict that. I remember the Carter/Kennedy primary, I still have my Ted Kennedy button(I went to hear him speak on campus, but I voted for Carter in the primary and general).
TenguPhule
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): First contact sucked ass.
Major Major Major Major
@Kropadope: I mean, I could be wrong. I mostly see it used that way, when it’s used at all, by conservatives, and we all know what they like to do with language.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@?BillinGlendaleCA: that wasn’t Bernie!. Everything Bernie! does is for the greater good of humanity, and makes the world a better place. When Bernie! was eight, he breathed life into a clay pigeon. And sixty-five years later, that birdie landed on Bernie!‘s podium. Bernie! is magic!
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
It is certainly possible for a gender-neutral group like a government to act in a paternalistic way (though, quite frankly, that’s because we still assume that most of the people who make up our governments are men, because it’s true). If you really want to stretch a point, you could probably come up with a scenario where a group of mostly women could be said to be acting “paternalistically” towards another group of mostly women, using that definition.
But to say that a group of (mostly) women is acting paternalistically towards a group of (mostly) men by supporting a woman over a man? Nope. The whole thing falls apart.
Kropadope
@Major Major Major Major: I recall an episode of Maude about white liberal paternalism. Bea Arthur is most assuredly not a man, the jokes of pinky and the brain aside.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
We sure would, because you would suddenly be bringing a stereotype about women only wanting money into the argument.
I’m kind of assuming that autocorrect got away from you and “fixed” maternalistic in your comment without you realizing it, because otherwise your comment makes no sense at all.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Most Millenials do have fond memories of a sitcom that aired in the early 1970s
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Are you familiar with a channel by the name of Nickelodeon or the profile of their late night lineup?
@Mnemosyne: One of your two assumptions was actually correct? Novel.
Major Major Major Major
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I have fond memories of I Love Lucy.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
The history of the United States — and probably the history of the entire world — says that men are in no danger of being shunted aside anytime soon, no matter how much having a few visible women in positions of power makes men feel that way.
There are 435 Representatives in the US House of Representatives, and 84 of them are women. That’s 20 percent. Women are over 50 percent of the US population. Who has been shunted aside so far?
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: Oh, I don’t think you want to shunt me aside because I’m a man. I think you want to shunt me aside because I came to a different conclusion regarding a primary where you have an ill-informed ill opinion of one of the participants of that primary. It’s getting unhealthy at this point, if it ever was healthy at all.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
Actually, I want to shunt you aside because you keep ignoring the current actions and speeches of that participant in the primary and pretending that people only dislike him because of things that happened 6 months ago.
One of us is living in the past and refusing to look at current events, but it ain’t me.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: You haven’t looked at one act at any stage of the proceedings honestly. You just make fact-free assertions about people outside what you see as your tribe. You’re basically a Republican of the left.
Applejinx
Double TBogg?
“Wilmer” was made up by some bright spark who thought it’d be great to compare Bernie to a gunsel in the Maltese Falcon who panders to Sidney Greenstreet. So, callow, stupid, murderous, evil, and taking it from the biggest most horrible villain and liking it. That’s the sort of classy character-association some clever-dick came up with for Bernie Sanders, and Balloon Juice love love LOVED it and have still not given it up.
Naturally, it backfired like ‘deplorables’ did. Turns out if your entire political philosophy is drawn from Jon Stewart and then you dedicate yourself to supporting the neoliberals who intentionally wrecked this country for their own gain, people react unfavorably to your being full of shit and bile. Who knew?
There, double TBogg bait acquired. Come at me ;P :)
Miss Bianca
@Applejinx: Oh, God, are you back flogging your pet theory again? Here I thought you’d done us all a favor and gone away for good. What is it about you and imagining Bernie as a gay sexbot? You might want to seek some help about that fetish of yours, it’s all you ever talk about anymore. Plus….EWWW.
NR
@Jonathan Holland Becnel:
That’s /thread, right there. Funny how none of the Bernie haters even attempted to address this fact.
80% of Democrats, 73% of African-Americans, 68% of Hispanics, 62% of Asian-Americans, and 58% of women have a favorable opinion of Bernie Sanders. Just goes to show how out of touch people in their bubble here really are.
Jack the Second
@NR: High fives all around! You won, congratulations! You can stop talking about this forever now.
DCF
I couldn’t have provided a better descriptor.
This perspective – endemic to the BJ commentariat – is why the ‘New’ Democratic Party (read: DLC) finds itself where it is today….
Mnemosyne
@DCF:
Let me guess — all the white dudes at Jacobin told you that voting for Hillary would be paternalistic, and the only way to truly be progressive was to vote for the old white guy.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Actually, according to the data, if DCF likes Bernie Sanders, they are far more likely to be non-white and/or a woman than they are to be a white guy. So maybe you shouldn’t be so quick with your assumptions.
It’s pretty sad that you can’t even do identity politics right.
Scotian
@Mnemosyne:
Thank you for one of the messiest spittakes I’ve had in many a year now. I was wondering why I was torturing myself reading a TBogged thread when it was likely dead, but for that it was worth it. FTR, I too hear paternalistic as a gendered concept, else I would hear/read the term maternalistic used in similar contexts, and funny thing that, I haven’t. So watching you and the other women being called out for this was truly breathtaking in its breadth, width, and outright owning wholesale that piece of, what to call it…I’ll leave that to the readers to fill in for themselves, was truly insane.
I mean really, I live in Halifax, I am a someone that only watches your political culture because of how it impacts mine, and *I* am well aware of who is the demographic makeup of the Dem base, especially in terms of those that actually do the hard work of volunteering to make the day to day actions and needs of a party get done. One of the main reasons the GOP went so hard on the daddy imagery in their materials for the last several decades was because the Dems were seen as the mommy party, appealing to women and their issues instead of being the big strongman who knows best for all that the GOP keeps selling for Presidential material qualification. Mommies and women are too weak to be trusted with security and military don’t ya know. Women need to be guided, because man is after all the head of woman. Bleech! Just writing that for the purposes of sarcasm still leaves a bad taste in the mouth!
When a total foreigner can see something this clearly, one is forced to wonder why someone in said culture has such problems with it.
Sanders is clearly not a Dem, he made that clear by his ACTIONS, and the way he LIED in the Primary when he said that once he changed party affiliation to being a Dem he was in it whether he won or lost the primary. Well, he couldn’t change that designation back fast enough could he. He may have some common alignments with Dems, he may find working in the Senate with them the only way to exercise power meaningfully there, but he is NOT A DEM by his own repeated choice! Why is that a concept some find so hard to grasp?
For that matter why and especially how is it that those that have spent decades fighting for and working within the Dem party are somehow the real undercutters of the Dems yet Sanders and his outsider “Revolution” are not? Why is it so hard to understand that people that spent years of their lives and committed so hard would be a bit resentful of an outsider coming in to tell them how they are doing it all wrong and his is the only right/winning way despite it never actually having been proven in the real world? Vermont is not a real world, politically speaking, not when the real world is the totality of the USA.
Sorry, it is just watching this still going on, and the level of male obliviousness within many of his supporters, well frankly as a white male watching from outside, it just makes me feel genuinely ill. When the white male privilege is so potent it wafts all the way up here, that is some preemo white male privilege going on there.