Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Every reporter and pundit should have to declare if they ever vacationed with a billionaire.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

A norm that restrains only one side really is not a norm – it is a trap.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

They punch you in the face and then start crying because their fist hurts.

This blog will pay for itself.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

The real work of an opposition party is to oppose.

When I was faster i was always behind.

Narcissists are always shocked to discover other people have agency.

Come on, man.

Trumpflation is an intolerable hardship for every American, and it’s Trump’s fault.

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

Nothing says ‘pro-life’ like letting children go hungry.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. keep building.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

There are more Russians standing up to Putin than Republicans.

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

You are here: Home / Politics / Trumpery / Dolt 45 / The Whirlwind Is In the Thorn Trees

The Whirlwind Is In the Thorn Trees

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From your lips to Allah’s ears:

But if Flynn is turning on Trump, it’s because he is in a whole lot of legal trouble, probably more than anyone involved in this scandal with the exception of former Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort. Let’s remember that shortly after the Trump administration began, acting attorney general Sally Yates went to the White House and informed officials that Flynn had lied to the FBI about his contacts with Russian officials (which they knew because they were monitoring the Russian ambassador’s communications) and that because of those lies, he was susceptible to blackmail. For some reason, Flynn spent 18 more days in the White House before being fired.

By taking a large fee from Russia for giving a speech in late 2015, Flynn appears to have violated a law that requires retired generals getting such payments to receive prior approval. He also was hiding the fact that he was paid more than half a million dollars by allies of the Turkish government to promote Turkey’s interests while advising the Trump campaign (he later registered retroactively as an agent of a foreign government; failing to register is a felony). He failed to include payments from Russia on his financial disclosure forms and may have lied about it to investigators. During the transition, he managed to delay a military operation against the Islamic State that Turkey objected to while he was secretly receiving those Turkish payments, a story that has gotten strangely little attention. He was even reportedly involved in planning for a bizarre plot to kidnap the exiled Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen in Pennsylvania and return him to Turkey, for which Flynn and his son were allegedly to be paid $15 million.

In short, Flynn appears to have violated multiple laws in multiple ways and could be looking at the possibility of serious time behind bars. He may have information Mueller could use in a case against Kushner, Trump or others, relating to multiple strands of the investigation. He may know things about the campaign’s relationship with the Russian government or about an obstruction of justice case related to Comey’s firing. Don’t forget that Trump admitted on national television that he fired Comey to shut down the Russia investigation, then shortly thereafter told the Russian foreign minister and ambassador that with his firing of Comey, “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off.”

Here’s what we should watch for now: If the White House suddenly changes how it talks about Flynn, disparaging him instead of saying what an admirable fellow he is, that’ll be a good indication of a change in Trump’s feelings. And it looks as though he has a lot to be nervous about.

Flynn, Manafort, Kushner, Trump, Stone, Conway- I want all these motherfuckers in orange jumpsuits.

Reader Interactions

190Comments

  2. 2.

    Cermet

    Hopefully, Flynn will be, for not just Mueller but all of us, the gift that just keeps giving. Here to small hands being the first president impeached and removed from office to serve time in a federal penitentiary … one can dream?!

  3. 3.

    japa21

    Personally, I think the person who should worry the most if Flynn cooperates is Pence. All of his denial of knowing anything would be blown right out of the water.

  7. 7.

    justawriter

    Looking forward to the all-Trump Administration revival of Prisoners of Love (a Bialystock/Bloom Production)

  8. 8.

    sharl

    This Business Insider headline is for a story that is based on a paywalled Friday Wall Street Journal piece:
    ……..Mueller is eyeing Flynn’s involvement in a film his lobbying firm did not want anyone to know about

    Robert Mueller is looking into former national security adviser Michael Flynn’s involvement in the production of a film about an exiled Turkish cleric.

    Flynn’s consulting firm was tasked with producing the film last year and reportedly did not want anyone to know of its involvement in the project.

    News of Mueller’s latest focus on Flynn comes on the heels of a Thursday New York Times report which indicated that Flynn’s team is negotiating or cooperating with Mueller’s team.

    The special counsel, Robert Mueller, is examining former national security adviser Michael Flynn’s role in producing a documentary about an exiled Turkish cleric at the height of the 2016 presidential race, The Wall Street Journal reported Friday.

    This tweet from a gadfly leftist journalist seems like speculation – it’s not in the Business Insider piece (though could be included in the paywalled WJS piece, for all I know). But it’s not beyond the realm of speculation that the “documentary” team would try to achieve a two-fer – produce the propaganda they claimed to be doing up front, while using the effort as a cover for doing as much surveillance and advance espionage work of Gülen’s compound as they could get away with:

    Flynn was clearly going to use a documentary film crew to scope out Gulen's compound so as to better plan for the kidnapping on behalf of his Turkish masters. This helps explain why he's taking the cooperation route now. https://t.co/GZdraKxp5A— Barrett Brown (@BarrettBrown_) November 25, 2017

  11. 11.

    The Fat Kate Middleton

    Flynn, Manafort, Kushner, Trump, Stone, Conway- I want all these motherfuckers in orange jumpsuits.

    Yes. And if they can’t find an orange jumpsuit large enough for the Great Orange Shitstain, I’ll happily volunteer my mad sewing skills.

  15. 15.

    Suffragette City

    Woolsey Woolsey Woolsey…wasn’t a casino he was involved with shut down somewhere in Asia?
    and old Rudy has been spending time in Ukraine..my my my
    I wonder which of the 5eyes picked up the fucking moron’s convo w Erdogan.
    And don’t forget Hope..who at least got some of the emails to inform the moron about.

  16. 16.

    geg6

    @MJS:

    This. TR is here to keep morale low. Fuck him. We all have our jobs to do. I will keep hoping Mueller does his magnificently while I trudge away at doing everything an active citizen can do.

  17. 17.

    eclare

    @geg6: I so want Ivanka to go to jail so we can find out what color her hair actually is. For other reasons too, but meow.

  21. 21.

    Gretchen

    @eclare: me too. I’m pretty sure Jared and Don Jr. are done for. They’ll have to get Ivanka on bribing foreign officials for her developments. I wonder if she’ll dye her hair back before going to prison or if she’ll think they have salons there.

  25. 25.

    MJS

    @Trentrunner: I’m not following. Gives away the game? As in, unless everything is kept completely hush-hush, Trump et al will be given a heads-up and then successfully cover their tracks? If that’s what you’re saying, I don’t think you could be more wrong.

  28. 28.

    MattF

    Hasn’t it been obvious from the beginning that Flynn is crazy? Not in the mixed-with-snark BJ sense (however significant that may be) but in the “This man is delusional” sense. My recollection is that multiple intel agencies decided he wasn’t employable. Of course this was before Trump decided Flynn was a good guy.

  31. 31.

    Chyron HR

    @Trentrunner:

    Mueller cannot save us. We have to save ourselves.

    Stay tuned for 2020, when we’ll hear Trentrunner say, “[Democratic candidate] is Nazi-lite! Stay home and let the Republicans win!”

  35. 35.

    Eric U.

    The white house has surrogates that have been mentioning Flynn got his clearances under Obama more frequently lately. Fact checking that, I imagine he had a top secret clearance under Bush I, so I doubt his clearances changed much under Obama, as if the administration really has anything to do with it anyway. Although you have to wonder if the Obama administration reduced the level of Top Secret clearance that he had after firing him as DIA.

    I am starting to think that Flynn will see jail time, even with a deal. The kidnapping thing is really serious, and it looks like there is plenty more. I expect the best he can hope for is a reduced sentence

  37. 37.

    eclare

    @Eric U.: It is astounding to me what anger/grievances will make people do. The guy was a general, I have to think at some point he believed in the US and the Constitution.

  38. 38.

    Gretchen

    @Eric U.: They keep saying that, but he’d have lost the clearances when Obama fired him and warned Trump not to hire him. Giving back his clearance is on them.

  39. 39.

    MikeifromArlington

    Imagine how apeshit the press will go when it’s trial time. This could carry near enough to election time or at least when people start thinking about elections again. Most certainly the house races and some senatorial races.

    This is nothing. It will be trump trials non stop 24-7.

  42. 42.

    danielx

    Want them all in orange, but..OT brief rant:

    Sister and brother in law can’t come for holiday gathering tomorrow because he is undergoing radiation therapy for throat cancer and the side effects have knocked him on his ass. All this four months after his retirement.

    Fuck cancer.

  46. 46.

    Mnemosyne

    During the transition, he managed to delay a military operation against the Islamic State that Turkey objected to while he was secretly receiving those Turkish payments, a story that has gotten strangely little attention.

    I’m not surprised in the least that the MSM has been downplaying stories of the various ways that Trump’s guys have been lining their pockets. The media is still desperately invested in believing that this is all just politics and kabuki theater, not actual crimes being committed until the media’s very noses.

  47. 47.

    Yutsano

    @danielx: Oh man. Much love and healing light to him.

    @Mnemosyne: The Village is hard wired for Republican rule. The Narrative says that the Republicans are the serious governing party and tax and spend liberals only oppress free enterprise and free thought. The Narrative must never be questioned. Add in Clinton Rules and it’s no wonder the MSM has no clue how to handle this.

  48. 48.

    Steve in the ATL

    @raven: everything is nice right now, isn’t it? Let’s go to Atlanta! Except, you know, that some of us are here already. And as an added bonus Florida got spanked…again! (sorry, Betty Cracker, Gator90, and other kind but misguided souls)

  49. 49.

    sharl

    @danielx: Aw man, that’s awful, and the timing so close to retirement just makes a bad shit sandwich even worse.
    And regarding the ‘Fuck cancer!’ sentiment – cosign.

  57. 57.

    zhena gogolia

    OT, but where is Siubhan Diunne? I wanted to commiserate with her about Hvorostovsky. Here’s my favorite song, Delvig’s Elegy (Glinka). What a magnificent singer we have lost.

  58. 58.

    germy

    Trump on Russian women, speaking to a journalist in 2001: "I was just in Russia. The girls have no morals—you gotta get out there." Yeah, I'm sure he was "cautious" at the Ritz Moscow in 2013 sans wife, after Miss Hungary (Sarka) turned him down for sex.https://t.co/MYxFGcKQuG— Seth Abramson (@SethAbramson) November 25, 2017

  61. 61.

    Immanentize

    I wish LAO was here — Flynn flipped.for the same reason most defendants do — The prosecutors have serious dirt on his family member (here his son) and are willing to let those charges slide some for cooperation. People almost always try to save their kids no matter how fucked up they are. No one wants to be the reason your kid gets screwed.

  63. 63.

    Betty Cracker

    @Eric U.: Flynn might be trying to keep his shit-stain spawn out of jail at this point. From what I’ve read, the unemployable whelp was neck-deep in daddio’s illegal activities, though probably too dumb to comprehend what was going on.

  66. 66.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Flynn needs to be recalled to active duty, court-martialed, and given this treatment. Strip him of rank, pension, and VA benefits. Then toss him in Leavenworth.

    Though, admittedly, Jason McCord was innocent of the crime he was court-martialed for.

  69. 69.

    Immanentize

    OT and maybe touchy or already touched on — I have been in and out a lot but —
    Whatever happened to ABC and Cole?

  70. 70.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @zhena gogolia:

    I’m here. Following threads but posting very little because iPad is completely borked and I hate typing on the phone. But I was and am really heartbroken about Dima. Thank you for knowing that.

  77. 77.

    eclare

    @Immanentize: He addressed that in a post maybe a week or so ago, because Omnes (I think) asked. He said they were still friends and still talked, but she was not in the picture anymore. Life got in the way, according to him. Long distance is hard.

  89. 89.

    lgerard

    Monday morning when we have two competing heads of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is sure to be interesting.

    The papaya pinochet will undoubtedly weigh in with some deep thoughts

  93. 93.

    Duane

    Fiynn, Manafort, and Papadopoulos have no choice but to tell what they know. No one takes the hit for someone they hardly know.

  99. 99.

    Mike J

    Hey CaseyL, still around? opiejean and I were discussing our need for a meetup when ruemara is here. Poke beautifulplumage if you see her and let’s get a plan started.

  103. 103.

    zhena gogolia

    @CapnMubbers:

    He’s so magnificent in that.

    On Monday I’m going to make my students watch the finale to Onegin (we read the novel earlier in the semester). Let the young ‘uns learn a thing or two.

  104. 104.

    Mnemosyne

    @Immanentize:

    Everyone’s lesson is different. One of my coworkers had a similar issue — he lives in California, she lives in England — but their solution was to get married. BUT neither of them have minor kids, only full-grown adult kids with lives of their own. Having minor kids in the mix is a major complication.

  105. 105.

    sharl

    @lgerard: Monday morning when we have two competing heads of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is sure to be interesting.

    The papaya pinochet will undoubtedly weigh in with some deep thoughts

    The CFPB is part of David Dayen’s regular beat, and he had a flurry of tweets today on the latest rumors about this.

    One interesting sidelight of this whole CFPB thing: Mnuchin was supposed to get the temporary job, not Mulvaney. This from a very plugged-in lobbyist https://t.co/mi1mrzY48m pic.twitter.com/skYL1PGck2— David Dayen (@ddayen) November 25, 2017

    The speculation moved to Mulvaney from Mnuchin in the last couple weeks. What happened? Who did Mnuchin piss off?
    ~~~
    What’s the tension between the Mnuchin camp and the Mulvaney camp? What went down in the last two weeks? Was it the sheet of money pic?
    ~~~
    Mnuchin’s shop at Treasury has been the one writing up all the reports about crippling the CFPB.
    ~~~
    For what it’s worth, I’ve heard through the grapevine that Treasury is pretty unhappy about losing the interim spot to OMB and Mulvaney.

    I have no idea on this, but I could buy an explanation based on those photos of Mnuchin with his glamorous wife holding the sheet of money. There are still plenty of suckers among the MAGA crowd who think that Twitler is shaking up business as usual – “draining the swamp,” if you will – and those photos ain’t gonna help in maintaining the illusion.

    In any event, Dayen also linked to a piece that says the White House has no legal authority to make the interim CFPB director appointment anyway – whether Mnuchin, Mulvaney, or whomever – no matter how badly they want to bypass the Senate confirmation process.

  108. 108.

    Immanentize

    @sharl: when Jack Lew was the head at Treasury, the big issue was his crazy loopy signature. I never saw one image of him with a sheet of money. These Trump people are such tacky-rich asses.

  112. 112.

    lgerard

    @sharl:

    Mnuchin was supposed to get the temporary job, not Mulvaney

    i think the answer is far simpler

    Mulvaney was all over TV last week mindlessly defending/praising trump. There is nothing he likes better, and whomever is praising him right now is always the fair haired boy.

  118. 118.

    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap

    Hmm….

    @TomArnold
    A warning 2 my Hollywood pals who could help Trump/Russia but ghosted me. Your wives have begged me to keep plugging cause they’re worried for country while I protect you. Those days are over. Step up now or I will for you & you’ll remain on the wrong side of history & under oath

  139. 139.

    germy

    @Mnemosyne: I thought tom arnold claimed he had a tape of drumpf spewing racist stuff?
    All I know is I checked his twitter and I saw AJ Benza talking to him, and that was my cue to exit.

  140. 140.

    Barbara

    @Eric U.: Re: Flynn seeing jail time because of the kidnapping plot. Kidnapping is illegal everywhere. Anywhere Flynn took an overt act in furtherance of the plot is a state in which Flynn can be charged, in addition no doubt to federal charges related to his use of interstate communication devices to concoct and carry out the plot. It was simply an insane thing to do.

  141. 141.

    Gvg

    @danielx: a few years ago my Uncle had cancer in the throat region and radiation treatment. It was awful and left his throat feeling burned for a long time which meant eating hurt. He lost a lot of weight and was miserable. Had to be on a liquid protein diet such as body builders do. He only liked one flavor of one brand. Not sure why because he said he couldn’t taste much but sometimes the store was out and we relatives would start checking other places…he was very cold all the time. I bought him the softest fluffy blanket I could find for Christmas and it was surprisingly appreciated. He stole his daughters super soft fluffy socks because his feet were cold and he was so sore. I tried to find men’s fluffy socks but they don’t seem to make them so look for dark colors? Ask what bothers your relative, then try to help. It is so little but it does help.

  142. 142.

    Steeplejack

    @Mnemosyne:

    I was confused too. I looked on Tom Arnold’s Twitter timeline for the last few days and couldn’t find it. I don’t know when it’s from.

  143. 143.

    eclare

    @Mnemosyne: I didn’t think he was, I thought he claimed he had bad tape of Trump from The Apprentice. Knowing Roseanne’s politics, seems odd she would have been married to a Trumper.

  148. 148.

    CaseyL

    @Mike J: I am here! Ruemara will be staying in downtown Seattle, so we need to meet up there. Also, we want to find someplace where we can eat and drink for about $20/person.

  150. 150.

    JR

    @eclare: Arnold’s a Democrat but feels that he can get along with everyone. Helps that he’s rich but I think he takes on an overly optimistic attitude to cope with the horrendous abuse he suffered as a child. Worth listening to his Maron interview

  152. 152.

    gammyjill

    Maybe now that Cole has had a relationship with a woman – albeit from away – he’ll try for someone closer.

  157. 157.

    raven

    @Steve in the ATL: I mean how can you keep saying how fucking fabulous it is that those fucks “beat two #1 teams in three weeks ” and also say “Bama has been #1 all year”?????

  160. 160.

    Yoda Dog

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant):

    Trump has divided this country so much, I feel the future administration after Trump, if Democrat, should consider taking a Republican VP (or vice versus) just to unify everyone again.— Ed Krassenstein (@EdKrassen) November 25, 2017

    Taking a flying leap off a tall, tall building, Ed.

  164. 164.

    germy

    A New York Times piece published on Saturday delves into President Trump’s un-shocking decision to endorse Alabama senate candidate and alleged sexual predator Roy Moore over the fierce objections of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell — whose brilliant plan was to subvert democracy by getting Governor Kay Ivey to delay the election.

    Like Moore, Trump has been accused of sexual assault by several women, and like Moore, he has refused to budge an inch on the question of his innocence. As the Times reveals, though, Trump has gone way beyond mere denials. He has taken to contesting objective reality itself:

    But something deeper has been consuming Mr. Trump. He sees the calls for Mr. Moore to step aside as a version of the response to the now-famous “Access Hollywood” tape, in which he boasted about grabbing women’s genitalia, and the flood of groping accusations against him that followed soon after. He suggested to a senator earlier this year that it was not authentic, and repeated that claim to an adviser more recently. (In the hours after it was revealed in October 2016, Mr. Trump acknowledged that the voice was his, and he apologized.)

  165. 165.

    germy

    Is this the end of the NFL?

    A few weeks ago, sportscaster Bob Costas told a group of students at the University of Maryland that “the reality is that this game destroys people’s brains” and that “the whole thing could collapse like a house of cards if people actually begin connecting the dots.” Costas is a smart man, and more than that, he is a survivor: One of the skills of his career has been understanding which way the winds are blowing and adjusting accordingly. For the past several years, he was the host of the pregame show for the most-watched NFL game every week, Football Night in America. He left the show this year and has been speaking out against the NFL ever since. For the past few years, it was reasonable to wonder whether defending the NFL was going to put you on the wrong side of history. It is becoming increasingly clear that that history is nigh.

  166. 166.

    Jeffro

    @Gretchen:

    They keep saying that, but he’d have lost the clearances when Obama fired him and warned Trump not to hire him. Giving back his clearance is on them.

    Exactly.

    Plus didn’t Flynn give a speech at Trumpov’s convention, I think? Something about ‘lock her up’???

  168. 168.

    raven

    @germy: I love the way this gets left out

    He added that existing literature and research will eventually lead families to what he called a “common-sense conclusion,” that children should not play tackle football until they’re 18, if they play at all.

  171. 171.

    raven

    @germy:

    Overuse Injuries in Adolescent Athletes
    Authors
    Authors and affiliations
    Seamus E. Dalton
    1.
    Injury Clinic
    First Online: 25 November 2012
    138
    Downloads
    61
    Citations
    Summary
    As sports participation increases so too does the incidence of injuries, both acute and overuse. The growing skeleton is particularly susceptible due to the presence of growth cartilage at 3 locations; the epiphyseal plate, the joint surface and the apophysis. The risk of injury is most pronounced during the rapid growth spurt of adolescence when other factors, such as muscle tightness across joints, also become important in the aetiology of sporting injury. Overuse injuries seen in this age group may reflect the growth characteristics of the immature skeleton or may be of the type seen in adult athletes undergoing rigorous training schedules.

    Recent developments in organised competitive sport have seen growing individuals undertake prolonged and intensive training programmes when they are particularly at risk of sustaining an overuse injury. The training programme is one of a number of risk factors important in the generation of injury, many of which can be modified or controlled to an extent. Other factors such as growth deformities or malalignments are peculiar to the individual and preparticipation evaluation of the young athlete helps to identify those at risk.

    Whilst long term disability rarely eventuates, the loss of enjoyment and temporary incapacity resulting from this type of injury is significant. It is apparent that many of these injuries are preventable, and given the information available concerning the factors involved in their aetiology, it is the responsibility of coaches and health professionals alike to become involved in their early diagnosis, treatment and prevention.

  172. 172.

    Jeffro

    @Yoda Dog: Exactly. The next administration should tax all wages above $50,000/year at 100% in 2021 just for funsies, just to remind the .01% that 99.99% of folks will not be with them when the chips are down.

  177. 177.

    germy

    @rikyrah:

    Kidnapping for ransom…yeah, that’s serious.

    I wonder how Flynn was planning to do it. Was he assembling a team, like the old Mission Impossible TV show? They show up at the guy’s house, point guns at him and then hustle him into a van and then a plane?

  179. 179.

    Tom

    Flynn’s son was instrumental in spreading the “Hilary is running a child sex ring in the basement of a pizza parlor” that almost got multiple people murdered by a whack job with an assault rifle. Fuck him – he can rot for life regardless of who Daddy rolls over on.

  180. 180.

    Matt McIrvin

    People were urging Hillary Clinton to run on a unity ticket with a Republican to beat Trump. It’s an idea certain very serious types are constantly drawn to. When Republicans completely shit the bed, it’s anything but just giving control to the Democrats. Somehow that would be cheating.

  184. 184.

    Foofa

    I saw this from one of my wacko cousins today. This is what MAGAts are reading and spreading about Mueller’s investigation.

  185. 185.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Matt McIrvin: The Very Serious Types need to wake up from their fantasy and realize the GOP MUST go the way of the NSDAP and the CPSU. It’s that tainted, that treasonous, that incompatible with the ideals upon which this country rests.

  186. 186.

    Foofa

    I saw this from one of my wacko cousins today. This is what MAGAts are reading and spreading about Mueller’s investigation.

  188. 188.

    Aleta

    From Raw Story
    Malcolm Nance talking to Joy on MSNBC:

    “He has four issues that will come down on him. One: taking money from Russia while holding a top secret security clearance and not saying anything about it. That could lead him to charges of being an unwitting intelligence asset. Two: taking money from the Turks in order to extradite illegally a U.S. resident to Turkey which is kidnapping, federal conspiracy charges — that’s bad.”

    “Three: there’s making that phone call to Moscow in December of last year,” he continued. “That is significant because that could implicate Mike Pence and Donald Trump as having ordered him do that, and he may have lied about it. And finally, he may have been the executive officer of all the dirty tricks campaigns to get the Wikileaks information, the information from the Russian lawyer, and the information from the Podesta leaks and the rest to find Hillary Clinton’s e-mails — which means he’s neck deep in all of them.”

    “The question is, which are the easy ones Mueller is going for? I think he’s going for the Turkey and Russia payments, that’s documentary, he can get that. Finally, it was [Trump attorney] Jay Sekulow who dropped a hint about the security clearance of Flynn, saying Obama cleared him. So that leads me to believe it’s more the Moscow phone call and him being an Moscow intelligence asset.”

    I sure do want him to implicate Pence and Kushner.

  189. 189.

    Aleta

    @raven:

    Whilst long term disability rarely eventuates

    I wonder, up to what age they followed them.
    I know a couple of former high school quarterbacks whose knees were shot by their mid 30s; they say their coaches made them play no matter what.

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