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T R E 4 5 O N

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You are here: Home / Nature & Respite / Birdwatching / Hop on Pop (Open Thread)

Hop on Pop (Open Thread)

by | 168 Comments

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We’ve got a family of purple house finches in the yard with three fledglings. The fledglings are still a bit awkward in flight but do well enough; they can land on our feeders and gorge themselves, as they do pretty much all day.

But they still harass their parents for food. Here’s Father Finch being importuned by a baby, which is flapping its wings and screeching to demand that food be stuffed directly into its maw — just a few feet from a 24/7 all-you-can-eat buffet:

So, Papa feeds the little screecher:

But that just makes the little bird flap harder and screech more loudly:

So he feeds it some more:

It STILL won’t shut up, so Dad says, “Fuck it, I’m out.”

But another hungry chick awaits him on the next branch. Poor Papa Purple.

Open thread!

Reader Interactions

168Comments

  2. 2.

    Eljai

    After perhaps a minor edit, I think you have the makings of a delightful children’s book there.

  4. 4.

    Major Major Major Major

    they can land on our feeders and gorge themselves, as they do pretty much all day.

    But they still harass their parents for food.

    Ah, that’s a fun age. Lol.

    I wrote a fan letter to the author of The Long Way To A Small, Angry Planet this morning. Such a nice book! I haven’t written a fan letter in years.

  5. 5.

    Ruviana

    Once traveling in Central America I saw a teenage? Scarlet Macaw do that to its parent–it was bigger than the parent and it got a snack too!

  9. 9.

    Corner Stone

    But they still harass their parents for food. Here’s Father Finch being importuned by a baby, which is flapping its wings and screeching to demand that food be stuffed directly into its maw — just a few feet from a 24/7 all-you-can-eat buffet

    I feel you, Father Finch. You have all my feels on this.

  10. 10.

    Corner Stone

    @RP:

    Millennial finches. Who knew?

    Millenial Finches – the next big pop rock band out of the UK, or the name of the subset for human millenials that are slowly destroying every chain food restaurant in the US?

  12. 12.

    pat

    Are you sure these are purple finches and not house finches? House finches are much more numerous….Kind of like house sparrows.
    Anyway, love the photos and the story!

  14. 14.

    donnah

    Wonderful scenes! I watched the same story play out with a mama robin and her offspring. That baby squawked and ruffled its feathers every time she took a break. And she was exhausted from flying back and forth gathering worm bits for the never-ending feeding. But it was mesmerizing to watch!

  15. 15.

    TenguPhule

    A study suggests that the white Christian and male voters who supported Donald J. Trump were driven by concerns over losing their privilege.

    Via FTFNYT. Apparently they commissioned a study by Captain Obvious.

  17. 17.

    Betty Cracker

    @pat: I am not 100% sure — they look an awful lot alike. But I think they’re purples because they have more of the not-purple color than house finches typically do.

  19. 19.

    Betty Cracker

    Have any of y’all seen clips of Trump’s behavior around Macron? What a weird motherfucker. In addition to demanding tax returns up front, etc., we ought to vet future aspirants to that office on their ability to act like a normal human being for at least 10 minutes at a time. Jesus.

  20. 20.

    Catherine D.

    My sister had an interesting bird bear at her feeder over the weekend. (Her yard backs onto the Great Patterson Swamp, so much wildlife wanders through.)

  21. 21.

    Spanky

    @TenguPhule: Breaking News: NYTimes still fails to find own ass using both hands. Film at 11.

    (Or we could trot out that Sinclair Lewis quote yet again.)

  22. 22.

    donnah

    @Betty Cracker: And that dopey staged photo-op when Trump was allegedly showing Macron the Oval Office. As if that bloated boob could memorize the historic details of the desk or any of the information about the White House.

  24. 24.

    TenguPhule

    @Betty Cracker:

    Have any of y’all seen clips of Trump’s behavior around Macron?

    Are you referring to the dust mote touchy feely creepy as shit video?

  25. 25.

    TenguPhule

    @Betty Cracker:

    we ought to vet future aspirants to that office on their ability to act like a normal human being for at least 10 minutes at a time.

    But that would automatically disqualify Baud.

  28. 28.

    The Ancient Randonneur

    @Betty Cracker:

    Have any of y’all seen clips of Trump’s behavior around Macron? What a weird motherfucker.

    So you’re say you wouldn’t wipe a piece of dandruff off the lapel of a friend, while out in public, and explain to everyone within earshot what you were doing?

  29. 29.

    TenguPhule

    Trump is pushing hard to reach NAFTA agreement, both with trading partners and with Congress

    The Trump administration has good political reason to wrap up NAFTA talks in the coming weeks. It wants to lock in a deal ahead of Mexico’s presidential election on July 1. Trump and his Republican backers also have their sights on the U.S. midterm elections. A successful conclusion to NAFTA talks could give a lift to the GOP and soften an expected loss of seats and possibly control of the House.

    To meet that goal under congressional trade rules, Lighthizer would need to reach an agreement in principle in a matter of days to have a realistic chance for lawmakers to pass it in December. That is because the parties need time to write a text, give a mandated 90-day notice to Congress and have an economic impact report completed before Congress can vote it up or down. Trump is betting that his best shot for approval would come during the lame-duck session, when many lawmakers may be willing to take more difficult votes.

    As part of the administration’s legislative strategy, Trump could give the required six months’ notice of withdrawal from NAFTA about the time a text is ready, essentially forcing Congress to accept the new accord or risk the end of the 24-year-old pact, according to trade experts.

    “The status quo, which most members of Congress probably prefer, would not be an option,” wrote William Reinsch, a senior advisor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, although he questioned the wisdom of employing such hardball tactics.

    Such a move could inflame lawmakers. Nor is it clear whether Trump has the legal authority to pull out of NAFTA without congressional support. And many on Capitol Hill and Wall Street fear the potential political and economic fallout of termination. An end to NAFTA would cause tariffs to rise and create other barriers that would almost certainly hurt trade, production and investments throughout North America.

  30. 30.

    Mike S.

    Hi Betty, they are definitely House Finches. The brown streaking on the flanks is diagnostic. Male Purple Finches have reddish-purple streaks in the breast and flanks. Also the shade of red-purple is more garish and less pleasing than the raspberry-jam red of a Purple Finch male. There are other more subtle differences too. Here is a good link for Identifying and separating them at Project feeder Watch (You can ignore the Cassin’s Finches as they never visit Florida!)

  33. 33.

    germy

    The $2 million bond for Travis Reinking was just revoked by a judge. We got a lot of comments from locals (and beyond) as to why he would have been given bond to begin with. Under TN state law, all are entitled to it except death penalty cases (which this is not). pic.twitter.com/2cdiCZQrDI— Nick Valencia (@CNNValencia) April 24, 2018

  35. 35.

    Mustang Bobby

    Betty Cracker: I’m visiting my parents in southern Ohio. They have feeders outside the window and yesterday I thought I saw a Cedar Waxwing. Hooray! Enh…turns out on closer inspection it was a female goldfinch in winter garb. Why I thought it was a CW, which is the size of a robin, and not a goldfinch, about the size of a wren, was just aging eyes and hopeful wishes. But they are ass-deep to a tall Swede in tufted titmice, chickadees, house finches, cardinals, and downy woodpeckers. The search for the waxwings goes on.

  37. 37.

    Brachiator

    @Betty Cracker:

    Have any of y’all seen clips of Trump’s behavior around Macron? What a weird motherfucker.

    I’ve just seen a few photos. Can’t quite get myself to watch much more.

    He enjoys preening and wants to be the center of attention, as opposed to being a gracious host.

  39. 39.

    Elizabelle

    I love your bird photos and stories, Betty C.

    Keep ’em coming. They’re soothing in this era of Trump.

  41. 41.

    germy

    Sarandon eternal

    You might remember Susan from such hits as:

    -HRC is more dangerous than Trump
    -Our Rev. should primary D. Feinstein
    -Vote Jill Stein!

    And today, she's supporting a propagandist, Jimmy Dore, who believes the Syrian chemical attacks are fake.

    (Receipts in thread) #GFYSusan pic.twitter.com/DXSRR1PhCw— Selena Adera? (@Selena_Adera) April 23, 2018

  45. 45.

    LAO

    General question for all — I think I want to buy a cheap but wifi enabled “point and shoot” digital camera, does anyone have any suggestions?

  46. 46.

    Amir Khalid

    @germy:
    Jimmy Dore is a name I have only ever encountered on The Young Turks YouTube channel. He’s very much of that Wilmerista ilk.

  48. 48.

    hitchhiker

    The embarrassment of having that grotesque ass in charge of our government is never-ending. It’s like … yes, there’s always been an element of the USA that’s really stupid, petty, and mean. This is the first time we’ve decided that’s the face we want to show to the world.

    I’m never, ever going to make peace with people who voted for him, who didn’t vote, who threw their votes away on Susan Effing Sarandon’s choice, or who are at this moment failing in their duty to expose him and hold him accountable.

    Never.

  49. 49.

    Major Major Major Major

    @MisterForkbeard: I was bothered by how the AI was just kind of there as an accessory/discussion point, quite ironic really, but that feels like a pretty minor thing to be my #1 issue! Especially given what the second book is about.

    I’m reading Pandora’s Star next since I always take a break between books in a series.

    The noon Tuesday earthquake siren test just happened, or as I like to think of it, the lunch alarm for my working from home day.

  52. 52.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @germy:

    “Merci, Mr. President. Let me help you with your tie.”

    [Violently yanks short end down level with fat end, incidentally choking Trump.]

  54. 54.

    Roger Moore

    @Corner Stone:

    or the name of the subset for human millenials that are slowly destroying every chain food restaurant in the US?

    I will not cry when every chain restaurant is out of business.

  55. 55.

    efgoldman

    @Mustang Bobby:

    turns out on closer inspection it was a female goldfinch in winter garb

    We get rare goldfinch sightings on our feeder (last week, a female) but we won’t see them again for a year. They stop here on the way somewhere.

    Last week I also spotted three female cardinals sitting atop the feeder pole. After a minute, the bright red boss male came along and exchanged food with one of the girls, the others flew away.

  56. 56.

    glory b

    @LAO: Hey! Pay attention to that fascinating CLE exchange happening right now.

    I was in CLE last Friday.

  57. 57.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @Jerry:

    Melania got a glimpse of freedom while she was out of the cage at the Barbara Bush funeral.

  59. 59.

    Brachiator

    @germy:

    And today, she’s supporting a propagandist, Jimmy Dore, who believes the Syrian chemical attacks are fake.

    I’m not surprised. I think that there are people on the loony left (and also folks on the loony right) who need conspiracies and similar foolishness so that they never have to confront their irrational ideological preferences.

    Also, too, St Bernie is pushing the pedal to the medal on his version of nutty socialism: Not just free college but a guaranteed job for everyone.

    Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) is set to announce a federal jobs proposal that would guarantee a job with at least a $15-per-hour wage and health benefits to every adult American “who wants or needs one,” The Washington Post reports.

    The senator is still in the early stages of crafting the plan, according to the Post, which would provide a job or required training for any American.

    Although I am leaning in the direction of something like a universal basic income someday, I don’t see it as something that can be easily waved into existence.

  61. 61.

    Corner Stone

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    Melania got a glimpse of freedom while she was out of the cage at the Barbara Bush funeral.

    Melania thought about taking a run at Barack “The Islamic Shock” Obama. But then she saw Michelle’s “Girl…” face.

  63. 63.

    LAO

    @glory b: I am really ready to kill myself. Why do I wait till the last moment? Will I never learn? The answer is no, no I will never learn.

  65. 65.

    germy

    So David Copperfield was compelled to reveal a trick in court. In this illusion, several audience members climb into a box onstage. Then they reappear magically at the back of the theater.

    Turns out, there’s a secret door, and the audience members have to run through a tunnel to get to the back of the theater. Who could have known?

  66. 66.

    Roger Moore

    @Brachiator:

    Also, too, St Bernie is pushing the pedal to the medal on his version of nutty socialism: Not just free college but a guaranteed job for everyone.

    He has to stake out fresh territory so he can continue to criticize everyone else for insufficient leftiness.

  68. 68.

    donnah

    @Mustang Bobby:
    I’m in SW Ohio, in Dayton. We used to get a small flock of beautiful cedar waxwings every year, when the mulberry tree in our yard was thick with fruit. I didn’t know your people are in Ohio! Small world.

    I have the 1953 periwinkle Pontiac Chieftain, just as a reminder.

  70. 70.

    TenguPhule

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):

    It’s conventional wisdom that the party under time pressure is at a disadvantage in a negotiation.

    Also, none of the other parties involved have any elections this year. They can afford to give Trump a one finger salute if that is what it takes.

  74. 74.

    TenguPhule

    @Brachiator:

    I don’t see it as something that can be easily waved into existence.

    It could be done, given a sufficiently supportive Congress.

    Managing the change in society for the least disruption? That’s the real challenge.

  75. 75.

    danielx

    @Brachiator:

    I think that there are people on the loony left (and also folks on the loony right) who need conspiracies and similar foolishness so that they never have to confront their irrational ideological preferences.

    I agree, I just think there are a hell of a lot more of them on the right than the left. After all, they have a lot more outlets providing them conspiracies, including a whole tv network. They NEED conspiracies; gotta get that daily rage fix.

    It must be exhausting to be that angry all the time.

    Also too, the prospect of serious periodontal work is making ME irritable.

  76. 76.

    Amir Khalid

    Half an hour gone in the first leg of the first UEFA Champions League semifinal between Liverpool and AS Roma. Still no score at Anfield.

  78. 78.

    CarolDuhart2

    @Brachiator: It can’t be. How do you do this while shrinking the size of the Federal workforce already in place and slashing agency budgets and making it harder to be permanent workers? And remember this would be in the face of automation-processing applications and what not done by fewer and fewer people as computers take over.
    And what work is being done requires more and more education and more and more automation.

    It’s another sign that Bernie is stuck in the 1970’s. The kind of jobs that would have been covered with such a guarantee have been either contracted out or automated out.

    When I went in 21 years ago, tax processing required a lot of clerks who could keypunch in hundreds of mailed tax documents. Everybody had to mail theirs in except for a few who could file by phone. I started at $7 an hour, and it took me years to get up to $15 an hour. Those jobs are going away now.

  79. 79.

    germy

    Bernie TV (that’s my shorthand: there’s no one name for the enterprise) is online only, and there are no plans to move it elsewhere, cable or otherwise. There’s no profit scheme — it’s produced using Senate resources — and there’s no plan to expand it beyond social media. But the programming represents by far the most advanced evolutionary stage of Sanders’s longtime goal of finding new ways to get around the traditional media and spread his “political revolution” directly.

    Kenneth Pennington, a former Senate staffer who later became the presidential campaign’s digital director, recalled Sanders’s refrain from long before he ramped up the current operation: “‘What we are doing is what the news media should be doing. Our goal is to create the biggest network possible for distributing information about public policy.’”

  80. 80.

    Mustang Bobby

    @donnah: Hi, Donnah! Are you ready for car show season? Yes, my mom and dad live in Montgomery, my sister in Mariemont. Visiting here on my way to a theatre conference in Missouri tomorrow.

  82. 82.

    Amir Khalid

    @Brachiator:
    Jobs doing what? Wilmer is, to put it mildly, not a detail man. Somehow I don’t think he has it in him to work up a comprehensive WPA v2.0 plan.

    @Amir Khalid:
    Mo Salah scores.

  85. 85.

    Major Major Major Major

    @germy:

    But the programming represents by far the most advanced evolutionary stage of Sanders’s longtime goal of finding new ways to get around the traditional media and spread his “political revolution” directly.

    Why does he need that? The traditional media will have him on whenever as long as he bashes Democrats, which is a fundamental part of his ‘revolution.’

  86. 86.

    gene108

    @p.a.:

    Cowbirds are a nasty piece of work. They lay eggs in other birds nests and would destroy the nest, if the host bird tried to destroy the cowbird’s eggs.

  87. 87.

    germy

    @clay:

    How could that have possibly been the court’s business?

    I suppose they wanted to know the details of how the illusion worked because more than one audience member was injured while being rushed through the trick.

  90. 90.

    germy

    @Amir Khalid:

    “It completely undercuts a lot of industries and companies,” said Brian Riedl, of the conservative-leaning Manhattan Institute, a think tank. “There will be pressure to introduce a higher wage or certain benefits that the private sector doesn’t offer.”

    Why yes. That’s precisely what it does. And that’s why it makes sense for all of us to support it. It is a direct attack on four decades of quarterly report culture emphasizing short-term profits over job creation and training, of the capitalists capturing all the wealth creation instead of spreading it around the population, and of offshoring all work and destabilizing the American workforce, ushering in all sorts of new forms of exploitative work such as long-term temping, subcontracting, and franchising. Yes, it gives workers the opportunity to quit their crappy jobs for a government job. That would be great.

  92. 92.

    hitchhiker

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Yes, it’s today. From what I’ve read, this is not one that we’re likely to get. Most of the voters in this district are white people over 60, and the early voting totals showed that they started the day with a 100k+ lead.

    The pundits will be talking about how close it was, as a measure of how much D intensity exists in a place that loved Joe effing Arpaio to pieces.

    Of course, anything is possible. Maybe all those R early voters — whose great judgment last time got them the dude who was caught trying to pay for his mistress’s abortion — have changed their affiliation.

  95. 95.

    CapnMubbers

    @Betty Cracker: House finches have a band of color across the forehead with brown crowns, purples’ color continues across the crown and down the back. Plus Mike J.’s excellent link. The subtle differences in beak shape, streaking, and shades of red are best compared side-by-side; I often fume at them to pose side-by-side with noticeable lack of cooperation on their part.

  96. 96.

    Corner Stone

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Is the Arizona special election today? What are our chances?

    Don’t live there but have family south of Tucson. IMO, if we can keep it R+5 to R+8 that should scare the peewadly out of RWNJ.
    Just as an aside. There’s something that happens to white people the longer they live close to the border. It starts to eat at them and they begin to believe the Brown Menace is coming for them.

  97. 97.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?

    @TenguPhule:

    A successful conclusion to NAFTA talks could give a lift to the GOP and soften an expected loss of seats and possibly control of the House.

    Is this delusional or what?

  102. 102.

    Mnemosyne

    @Roger Moore:

    I wouldn’t mind as much if he and his followers presented it as Hey, I have a great idea, let me know what you think and not If you don’t adopt this idea immediately and with no changes, you are the enemy.

  104. 104.

    donnah

    @Mustang Bobby:

    I’m SO ready to get Wink out of the garage and out for shows! We have a couple new venues that I’m ready to try. How’s the Mustang? I miss showing the Pontiac and our wet, cold spring hasn’t helped. She could use some fresh air.

  105. 105.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I hate Bernie because of this. He’s an idiot who doesn’t know how to make his policies work. UBI is a much better alternative and he’s already poisoning that well.

  110. 110.

    Amir Khalid

    Sadio Mane scores Liverpool’s third goal of the evening against AS Roma with an assist from Mo Salah. And before I can hit Post Comment, Bobby Firmino makes it four.

  112. 112.

    Rosalita

    Ha! I keep a thistle feeder hanging off my deck. I have goldfinches mostly and I watch the fledgers do that every summer, sometimes a few of them at once. They give me a happy.

  113. 113.

    CarolDuhart2

    UBI is a lot cheaper than his proposal. Once eligibility is established, all you have to do is cut a check. To administer, you can expand the current system by just a few hundred people.

    His proposal requires a lot more than just employees. Think supervisors, trainers. Think additional office space and equipment and supplies.

    And do these people work for already existing agencies, or new ones that are created for them? How will this mesh, or will it mesh with current Federal employees and that system? If it isn’t done well or at all, there can easily be two tiers of Federal employees, the regular way and the “guaranteed job” tier with all the unfairness that it entails. And while a job may be “guaranteed” its tenure may not be. There is such a thing as “term’ employment where you are hired only for a certain amount of time and then let go.

  115. 115.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?

    @Major Major Major Major:
    I know, people conflate universal healthcare with single-payer a lot. It’s not the be-all-end-all solution. UBI may not be either but I see little choice since so many jobs are being either outsourced or automated.

    Not everyone is capable of being an engineer or a computer programmer. Many just aren’t cut out for that kind of work. They can’t be just discarded. That’s part of how cyberpunk dystopias usually begin; massive and permanent unemployment

  116. 116.

    Ruckus

    @Brachiator:
    He seems to believe that everything he touches turns from nothing to perfect in a second because it fell out of his mouth. He has the same grip on reality as drumpf. Fucking None.

  117. 117.

    Yutsano

    @CarolDuhart2: And you bet your bippie the federal unions will jump in for representation rights. It would be the biggest expansion of union labour since the Gilded Age.

  118. 118.

    ruemara

    @Brachiator: He’s making his own version of an actual possible (paid for and well thought out) plan by Booker & Gillibrand that have been there much longer. Because he’s a fucking attention whore.

  119. 119.

    Mary G

    Those birds remind me of the 14-year-old housemate I was in charge of last week. His parents bought a car load of food at Costco before they left to attend a funeral in Guatemala, and two days before they were due back the fridge was as empty as a Republican’s heart. I made him do so many chores, then bought a massive quantity of pizza and wings, which was immediately consumed and I gave him my last $20 the next day, which he spent at Taco Bell. I don’t know what I’ll do tonight, guess we’ll go to the bank and then McDonalds.

  120. 120.

    Amir Khalid

    @CarolDuhart2:
    I anticipate that when (or more to the point, if) Bernie finally lays out his plan it’s going to have more rhetoric than details.

  121. 121.

    Bas-O-Matic

    @pat: House sparrows are an invasive species (who kill indigenous American songbirds) and will absolutely take over a yard, like a dozen or more will take up in a hedge. House finches are native to the Eastern US and, while common there tend not to be more than a pair in any one yard (like every yard I’ve ever been in has had a pair of cardinals, a pair of mockingbirds, or at least a lone mockingbird looking for a mate very loudly, a pair of house-finches, and a bunch of robins, along with the transient blue jays, grackle and brown-headed cowbirds).

  122. 122.

    ruemara

    @Corner Stone:

    There’s something that happens to white people the longer they live close to the border in largely white communities. It starts to eat at them and they begin to believe the Brown Menace is coming for them.

    FTFY

  123. 123.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @TenguPhule:
    I expect the talks to fail and NAFTA to continue completely unchanged. That has been Trump’s usual trend. I do admit there’s a decent chance of him pulling us out unilaterally like a dumbass, but it would require more effort than TPP or the climate change treaty. Those hadn’t gone into effect yet, and he could just sit on his ass and let nothing happen.

    @? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
    I support UBI. I have no doubts it would require a whole lot of expertise to figure out and implement. Watching the rich has told me that most people who don’t have to work still want to do so to get more than what they have. There will just be one Hell of a lot less misery.

  126. 126.

    Major Major Major Major

    @CarolDuhart2: His proposal also makes any other job that doesn’t pay at least $15/hour and have equivalent benefits undesirable. Will this lead to higher wages and better benefits in the private sector? Well, maybe–but a better way to achieve that is a mandate. What’s the real goal here?

  127. 127.

    Mnemosyne

    @Mary G:

    I take it he came back safe and sound from his phone-off adventure?

    I hope the garden fertilizer was nice and smelly for him. ?

  129. 129.

    Amir Khalid

    A second goal for Bobby Firmino tonight, and a fifth for Liverpool. And 5-0 is not even their biggest winning scoreline this Champions League season.

  130. 130.

    Steeplejack

    @Mnemosyne:

    And, reciprocally, it probably felt great for her just to be around normal people for a change.

    I felt my first tiny twinge of sympathy for her when I saw those pictures from the funeral.

  131. 131.

    Amir Khalid

    Roma score an away goal which could be valuable if they can level it on aggregate next week at home. 5-1.

  132. 132.

    trollhattan

    @LAO:
    P&S cameras are a nearly dead segment on accounta phone cameras. There are still a few.

    Do you ever do outdoorsy stuff? How cheap is “cheap?”

    I like the Olympus “Tough” series, which aren’t WalMart cheap but do a good job and as the name implies, can go pretty much anywhere including underwater. Panasonic, Canon, Sony and Nikon still make compacts but have all edged upmarket pricewise.

  133. 133.

    Mary G

    @Mnemosyne: Oh, yeah. His parents were shocked at how clean the house was. His mom works 12 hours Mon. & Tues., so the confrontation has been postponed. I’ve been trying to talk her down without success. Military school, going to live with great grandpa in Guatemala, and some type of boot camp are under consideration. She’s also determined to take him to Tijuana for a drug test on Saturday.

  135. 135.

    Fair Economist

    @? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:

    UBI is a much better alternative and he’s already poisoning that well.

    That’s questionable. UBI is much easier to implement, because you don’t have to figure out tens of millions of jobs plus supervision, hiring, etc. OTOH in the American puritan political climate a guaranteed jobs bill would be a lot easier to pass.

  137. 137.

    Fair Economist

    @Mary G:

    She’s also determined to take him to Tijuana for a drug test on Saturday.

    ??? You can buy drug test kits at Walgreens, including hair sample kits.

  138. 138.

    Amir Khalid

    Roma are awarded apenalty for handball, and score. Liverpool 5-2. ETA: All of a sudden, this has become a nailbiter.

  141. 141.

    germy

    I can’t see a country as racist as this ever accept UBI. “We gotta pay ’em to squirt out babies??!”

    I like the idea, but too many resentful pricks who think “Black folks get away with murder” (this was actually said to me by a co-worker once) will vote it down.

  142. 142.

    efgoldman

    @Ruckus:

    If I ate now anything like I did in my first 30yrs, I’d weigh at least a hundred lbs more.

    One “good” thing about kidney failure is, it destroys your appetitie.

  144. 144.

    TenguPhule

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I expect the talks to fail and NAFTA to continue completely unchanged.

    That’s just it though, Trump is actually taking steps that prevent us from maintaining the status quo. If the talks fail, Congress is gonna have to get involved. And we’ve seen how worthless it is while controlled by Republicans.

  146. 146.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?

    I almost hate to ask this, but is liberalism/social democracy ideologically compatible with authoritarianism?

  147. 147.

    Brachiator

    @? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:

    Didn’t Iran create a UBI system?

    Interesting question. Not sure. Finland has recently experimented with it.

    Holy shit! Finland just announced that they are ending their experiment with UBI

    Europe’s first national experiment to give citizens free cash will be scrapped next year, after Finland decided to discontinue its pioneering basic income trial.

    The Finnish Social Insurance Institute, often referred to as Kela, introduced a two-year trial of Universal Basic Income (UBI) in January 2017. The scheme saw its government pay a random sample of 2,000 unemployed citizens aged 25 to 58 a monthly payment of 560 euros ($684).

    Kela’s trial did not require the recipients of basic income to seek or accept employment, while those who took a job during this period would still continue to receive the same amount of cash.

    However, Kela’s request for extra funding to expand the two-year pilot to a group of employees this year was rejected by the government on Monday. Instead, the Finnish administration said it would prioritize other schemes in an effort to reform the Scandinavian country’s social security system.

    “The government is making changes taking the system away from basic income,” Kela’s Miska Simanainen told Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet.

    They still plan to release a report on the project in 2019.

  149. 149.

    Major Major Major Major

    @? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:

    is liberalism/social democracy ideologically compatible with authoritarianism?

    I would start by taking issue with the yoking together of liberalism and social democracy. They are related but not really the same thing. Liberalism writ large is, I would say, much less compatible with authoritarianism than social democracy is.

    Many Republicans would actually be fine with authoritarian (white/Herrenvolk) social ‘democracy.’

  150. 150.

    Matt McIrvin

    @CarolDuhart2: Erik Loomis seems to be big on job guarantees over UBI: he regards a job guarantee as feasible and UBI as silly libertarian techno-utopianism.

    It’s in part because (as I understand it) he’s convinced the work ethic in US culture makes getting paid for nothing psychologically corrosive compared to a job, any job. I don’t know how I feel about that. There’s probably something to it. I think a lot of people really would prefer to be on a dole than to work at the jobs they’ve got, but earning money also does give people a sense of purpose and dignity.

    I also feel as if there’s a lot of important human activity that nobody can make much or any money doing, and maybe paying for that is a way to fill this gap. But that also means it’s really a UBI with some kind of proof-of-effort requirement that’s a potential political avenue for squeezing it into oblivion.

  151. 151.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?

    @Major Major Major Major:
    I just think it’s bullshit that Trump voters are able to get away with electing someone who is actively hurting lots of people. And they don’t care. People have died because of this man (and his party, the GOP) and they just get to go on with their lives as if they don’t have blood on their hands via their vote? They should have known better. And because it was obvious before the election he was going to be a murderous scumbag they’re just as responsible for his crimes as he is.

  152. 152.

    Matt McIrvin

    @? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: You could in principle have a liberal autocracy, but it’s an unstable situation. If the autocrat starts abusing his power to rob the people or gratify his ego, who’s going to stop him?

    This is also the problem with the American system to the extent that it’s autocratic. Too much implicit trust in the chief executive.

  154. 154.

    sherparick

    @Brachiator: Actually, that is not such a “nutty” idea. It has been circulating since the New Deal and the Great Depression (WPA and CCC approached that ideal). WWII was in sense of where the Government put everyone to work (or in the military). http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/04/yes-fact-like-democratic-presidential-hopefuls-adopt-precise-policy-positions

    Also, UBI is a libertarian idea (Milton Friedman came up with it) and as such I suspect it).

  155. 155.

    Major Major Major Major

    @sherparick:

    UBI is a libertarian idea (Milton Friedman came up with it)

    according to basic googling

    The idea of a state-run basic income dates back to the late 18th century when English radical Thomas Spence and American revolutionary Thomas Paine both declared their support for a welfare system in which all citizens were guaranteed a certain income

  156. 156.

    Mnemosyne

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I will give a liberal, psychological reason to do universal employment instead of UBI — UBI would encourage social isolation among the very people who most need social interaction. Humans are social animals, and we as a society should be encouraging people to go out and do things rather than sit at home in isolation.

  157. 157.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?

    @Matt McIrvin:
    I know the consequences. It just frustrates me that stupid, vindictive people have so much power to wreak on those weaker than themselves. Just once I’d like to see Trump’s supporters get their comeuppance and actually acknowledge they were wrong and deserved what they got.

    Alas, that usually only happens in fiction.

    The price we pay for living in a democracy, I guess, which is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried.

  158. 158.

    TenguPhule

    @Mnemosyne:

    and we as a society should be encouraging people to go out and do things rather than sit at home in isolation.

    So we sit and work in isolated cubicles for most of the week with no chance to socialize.

  159. 159.

    arielibra

    @Mnemosyne:


    I will give a liberal, psychological reason to do universal employment instead of UBI — UBI would encourage social isolation among the very people who most need social interaction. Humans are social animals, and we as a society should be encouraging people to go out and do things rather than sit at home in isolation.

    Extrovert tyranny! So a freelance work-from-home job like mine will be a luxury, just like in the National Health service only the rich get private hospital rooms?

    (I know A: that’s probably not what you meant, and B: that’s how things turn out in most systems anyway.)

  160. 160.

    Kathleen

    @Roger Moore: He’s on phase 2 of his mission to rodent procreate and splinter Dem support (waiting for launch of his new “Black Votes Matter” PAC).
    Then he’ll be a courtin’ the wimminz!

  163. 163.

    Brachiator

    @sherparick:

    Actually, that is not such a “nutty” idea. It has been circulating since the New Deal and the Great Depression (WPA and CCC approached that ideal). WWII was in sense of where the Government put everyone to work (or in the military).

    The idea itself is not nutty, and (as noted by others) has been kicked around for a long time. Bernie’s brainless way of talking about his schemes is tiresome. And nutty.

  164. 164.

    Brachiator

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Erik Loomis seems to be big on job guarantees over UBI: he regards a job guarantee as feasible and UBI as silly libertarian techno-utopianism.

    We have the Finnish experiment, and a couple of others that may provide clues about what works and what does not.

    One thing I found interesting was that the goals of these UBI experiments often vary.

    Compared to the Finnish government, the government of Ontario is less focused on employment effects in particular, and more interested in the ability of a guaranteed income program to reduce poverty, food insecurity, and mental and physical health problems caused or exacerbated by low or unstable income. This is one reason that, in the context of the Ontario experiment, it may be less significant that the cash benefit is clawed back with earned income; researchers and policymakers are less focused, if at all, on reducing or removing the “benefits cliff”. Meanwhile, poverty–the prevailing concern to Ontario–is not an issue motivating the trial in Finland.

  166. 166.

    Ruckus

    @Matt McIrvin:
    I think you sort of hit on it.
    A lot of people have shit jobs, with low pay, zero future, no consistancy, and a lot of owners like it that way. A lot of those people would like to have a job that wasn’t like that. But it’s degreed profession or shit job, because a lot/most good blue collar jobs don’t exist any more, at least not in the numbers/population.

  167. 167.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Ruckus: Loomis is also very down on technological innovation in general; I think he might be imagining bringing some blue-collar jobs back by simply banning automating them away, or socializing them in such a way that the government can just refuse to automate them.

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