Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

“In the future, this lab will be a museum. don’t touch it.”

“That’s what the insurrection act is for!”

The US Supreme Court is on the ballot in november.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

The words do not have to be perfect.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Ron DeSantis, the grand wizard, oops, governor of FL.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

“I never thought they’d lock HIM up,” sobbed a distraught member of the Lock Her Up Party.

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Quote tweet friends, screenshot enemies.

The frogs are rarely mistaken.

Ah, the different things are different argument.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

These days, even the boring Republicans are nuts.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Conservatism: there are people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Monday Morning Open Thread: We (Must) Persist

Monday Morning Open Thread: We (Must) Persist

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Karen Tumulty, at the Washington Post — “Here’s what’s next for Cecile Richards”:

… In the eyes of the antiabortion movement, Richards was the elegantly dressed, politically savvy personification of evil. But during her years as Planned Parenthood’s leader, its membership nearly quadrupled, from 2.5 million supporters to more than 11 million. After she stepped down about a year ago, there was much speculation — and hope, among her admirers — that she would run for office.

But instead, Richards — who spent her years after graduating from Brown University working to unionize low-paid hotel and hospital workers — is returning to her political roots as an organizer. On Monday, she will launch a new organization called Supermajority that seeks not only to change that mind-set but also to provide resources and training for female activists across the spectrum of backgrounds and life experiences.

Her partners in the endeavor include Black Lives Matter co-founder Alicia Garza; Ai-jen Poo, who was awarded a MacArthur Foundation “genius” grant in 2014 for her efforts to organize domestic workers; and Libby Chamberlain and Cortney Tunis, who lead Pantsuit Nation, the organization that grew out of the private Facebook group Chamberlain started for Hillary Clinton supporters during the 2016 presidential election, and which now counts more than 3.8 million members.

“In many ways, women have been doing all this work — whether it’s running their PTA, or organizing around reproductive health care — but we haven’t been doing it together,” Richards said. “What are we going to do to make this moment not something that is just a fleeting flash point of activism, but actually creating a permanent organizing ability for women?”…

“The issues we share as women are deep, and they are wide, and they’re very similar across the country. But we have to be in rooms with women that we don’t know,” she said. “I know that there are many more of us, even though we don’t come from the same backgrounds. I don’t know what the model for that is. It’s not something that we have done.”

Women now have the force of a majority in politics. Richards wants them to start acting like one.

Supplementary:

And a note from our own BettyCracker:

If any of y’all are looking for an organization that is addressing the critical need for information and assistance with obtaining voter ID, I highly recommend VoteRiders.org. There are more than 20 million eligible voters who lack the proper ID, thanks to Republican initiatives to make it harder to vote, and many more who aren’t sure whether they’ve got the right ID or not. VoteRiders provides free information and assistance with obtaining ID, and they’re looking for volunteers.

Reader Interactions

180Comments

  3. 3.

    rikyrah

    I have lost my battle with the temperature changes.?
    Sitting here contemplating whether I need another day at home. Unable to breathe through my nose still. Yesterday was a series of wake moments through sleep ?.
    I know that the worst is behind me..but, still thinking about going to work.??

  4. 4.

    Debbie(Aussie)

    Morning all☀️
    I wish you every success in all your election endeavours. Please wish us luck for our federal elections on 18 May. If we are very lucky, and lower information voters do the correct thing, we will have a Labor government on 20 May. They are far from perfect (who is) but will be a vast improvement on the status quo.
    ETA spelling

  7. 7.

    Jerzy Russian

    Night 5 using the test CPAP equipment. I have the nose pillow mask. Although I have been sleeping better, I have consistently woken up around 2:00 am with a very dry mouth. I return the test machine later this morning, and I have the option of requesting a full face mask, which I probably will do (a dry mouth is a sign of breathing through the mouth). Also, the permanent machine will have a humidifier, which the test machine lacks. The permanent machine should get here in about three weeks, so I have to somehow hold out until then.

  11. 11.

    Jerzy Russian

    Also too, I for one will welcome our new female overlords, led by Cecile Richards.

  12. 12.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @satby: Yeah, pretty much. I’ve got 2 flower beds left to compost and sow and the stuff I planted in the veggie garden still needs to be mulched but everything else got done as needed. Supposed to rain this morn and was hoping to finish a couple things in the afternoon, but I’ve been awake since about 1:30 am and at some point I have to try and make up for the sleep deficit which is going to throw a big kink in my day.

    Insomnia sucks.

  13. 13.

    Jerzy Russian

    @satby: The first night was total hell, and I didn’t sleep a wink. I am also a side sleeper, but mostly because of the very loud snoring. It is possible to sleep on the side, but it is not comfortable. I slept much better the second night, even with waking up to get water. I am starting to get sore spots on my face, but I am also getting better at adjusting the tightness of the mask. I am told these issues are normal and that most people adjust after a few weeks. The alternative is to keep going through the days tired as hell. It got to the point where I would need a nap in my office soon after I got to work on most days.

  14. 14.

    Jerzy Russian

    @OzarkHillbilly: If all of us started to kick insomnia in the nuts when it showed up, maybe that would discourage it? More seriously, perhaps you suffer from the same affliction that I suffer from. Have you ever been tested for sleep apnea?

  16. 16.

    Jerzy Russian

    Hell’s bells. I just read the previous thread about R—-r S—-e and strip clubs. Now I will never get back to sleep again.

  17. 17.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Jerzy Russian: My issue is pain. I wake up 3 or 4 times a night with some part of my body saying “No mas”, usually my shoulders. Most times I roll over and fall back asleep. Every now and again I’ll start thinking about some problem (minor or major, it doesn’t matter) and then my brain kicks in and I can’t shut it off.

    As far as sleep apnea, I may or may not have it. I doubt very much they could come up with a diagnosis for reasons I won’t bother elaborating on, and even if they could the cure would be worse than the ‘disease’.

  19. 19.

    Barb 2

    @Jerzy Russian:

    I just got a prescription for a CPAP – after the sleep test and using the full face mask in the hospital I was sold on the full face. There are several choices and the full face mask Amara seems like a good option. Apparently as we get older we have sleep apnea.

    Good luck with your new machine – I understand that there is a learning curve. Some of the machines train you how to use them. I wake up during REM sleep.

  20. 20.

    satby

    @Baud: hey you!?

    @MagdaInBlack: yeah, I had that twice after “powering through” a cold. Since I have asthma I’m a bit more susceptible, but it happens often enough I always tell people not to push themselves. Very few jobs are worth the sacrifice of your health.

  22. 22.

    Jerzy Russian

    @Barb 2: Apparently the machines I can get through Kaiser are the latest fancy machines that can adjust themselves and the like. They are pretty quiet also. It comes without a copay, as does the mask. I get to keep the nose pillow, so there is no downside to trying the full face mask. I get a free replacement every six months for the mask, tubes, filters, etc.

  25. 25.

    MagdaInBlack

    @satby:
    I want to thank you for the incense referral from Friday (i think) morning thread.
    I treated myself to that gift set burner ☺️

  26. 26.

    satby

    @Baud: yeah, she was visiting relatives over Easter and was mostly offline. Like all of us, I think she tries to pace herself on politics because it can get so overwhelming.

  30. 30.

    satby

    @MagdaInBlack: Nice, I’m loving mine!

    Is there a 12 step group for addiction to exclamation points? Don’t laugh, as many as you all see me use, I’ve usually edited out a couple. I’m disgustingly perky after I’ve had my coffee.

  32. 32.

    --bd

    @satby: The full mask works for side sleepers as it is pyramids from your face to the tube. You can dip your head into the pillow with the extra 30 degrees of angle from the side of your cheek to the tube. Also, it is WAY easier to drape the sheets or another pillow over your head if you need to block out noise, light, spouse, etc. The CPAP becomes your SCUBA gear at that point.

  33. 33.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: I may end up transplanting some ramps in the rain before they completely croak. And I found this online and may be able to reclaim my flower bed without tilling over the whole thing. Which would be excellent, because though I would try to save the daffodils and iris tubers, I would lose the self-seeded coreopsis. So now I can’t wait to try this first.

  35. 35.

    satby

    @–bd: I haven’t been told I need a CPap yet, but I’ll remember that if I do. And to block out light and noise I got one of these 3 years ago and I love it (mine is black). Don’t think it will help with the spouse though.

  37. 37.

    Baud

    @satby:

    I want to tell you all that you’re making a terrible mistake, but I’m afraid that I’ll be persuasive.

  38. 38.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @satby:
    A CPAP is not hard to adjust to, and restful sleep is godly. It pains me that I cannot use one because of a very rare side effect.

  40. 40.

    Immanentize

    @satby: I am having a garden crisis. I have to get my house painted this year. It is chipping in places partly from my pre-new-roof ice damming a few years ago…. Anyhoo, my veggie garden space is up against the house. I am not sure how much to plant with the inevitable traffic, and paint chips and dust in early June. Maybe let it lie fallow a year, solarize the soil, and go to the farmer’s market more often?

  41. 41.

    Immanentize

    As we are starting with our sleep disasters today, mine was a three alarm migraine last night. By alarm I mean driven awake with right side misery (not the state, Ozark) to re-medicate. So this morning is exhaustion central with a side of loopy.

  43. 43.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @satby: Appears fairly innocuous in the environment with the caveat of taking care around water:

    Effects on Aquatic Organisms
    Clethodim is slightly toxic to fish and aquatic invertebrate species. Reported 96-hour LC50s ranged from 18 mg/L (3) to 56 mg/L in rainbow trout (2), and 33 mg/L in bluegill sunfish (3). A 48-hour LC50 of 20.2 mg/Lhas been reported for Daphnia species (3) for the formulation. No effects were seen at concentrations of 5.5 mg/L in Daphnia (4). No significant bioaccumulation has been observed in fish (4). Under likely conditions of use, it is unlikely to pose a hazard to aquatic species.
    ……………………………..
    Breakdown of Chemical in Surface Water
    Clethodim may be highly persistent in the aquatic environment. Reported half-lives for clethodim in the aquatic environment are 128 days in the aqueous phase and 214 days in the sediment (4). The reported hydrolysis half-life at pH 7-9 is approximately 300 days. The main pathway for degradation of clethodim in the aquatic environment is anaerobic metabolism by microorganisms (4). However, due to the low persistence and mobility of the compound, it is unlikely to be found in surface waters.

    But you don’t have water feature to worry about do you?

  46. 46.

    Kirk Spencer

    The sinus infection I have been fighting off all weekend breached my defenses last night. Stuffed and aching ears, phlegm needing cleared hourly, the works.

    I used to get them a couple of times a year. But with the CPAP this is my third in about 15 years. Doesn’t make them easier to bear but at least I can almost forget the misery.

  47. 47.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: nope, no water feature. Would only be confined to those two raised beds. Hand weeding would take all summer because I hate it, so knowing me I would manage an hour at a time at most before getting fed up. If this works it would be wonderful. Then I could concentrate on other stuff.

  55. 55.

    satby

    @rikyrah: but that’s a positive sign that the candidates saying “Vote blue, no matter who” intend to support the eventual nominee and are already encouraging their followers to plan on doing the same, unlike a certain sore loser we can all name.

  56. 56.

    rikyrah

    Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) Tweeted:
    W/o getting into other critiques Meghan McCain is both completely ignorant abt anti-Semitism and, to put it mildly, not Jewish. How does she keep getting called on to discuss anti-Semitism? What the actual fuck?

  57. 57.

    rikyrah

    @rikyrah:
    Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) Tweeted:
    2/ And to be clear, many people have very strong criticisms of her. I’m not getting into those. She’s the daughter of a famous senator. She’s carved out a niche for herself on The View. Great, good for her. But how the F did she become the anti-Semitism person.

  63. 63.

    satby

    @debbie: the candidates should be telling us it doesn’t matter who before they’re eliminated in the primaries? That’s like saying “don’t bother voting for me”.
    To be clear, once they’re eliminated in the primaries, I expect that of all the eventual losers. And we’ll get it from all except the same sore loser we didn’t get it from before.

  65. 65.

    Kay (not the front-pager)

    Just a quick dip in to say that you can make VoteRiders.org the recipient of your Amazon Smile dollars. It doesn’t add up to much, but it’s easy and painless.

  66. 66.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Semi-related to sleep discussion. Mr DAW snores like a jackhammer and a few years ago I started using ear plugs. The difference to my sleep was amazing. If you use them correctly, you usually get silence. It feels like going into a different world.

  71. 71.

    Sab

    @rikyrah: So if they don’t need to respond to Congress about the census, does that mean we can ixgnore that question on the census questionnaire?

  77. 77.

    Kay

    Trump was saying Bernie’s getting robbed at his Wisconsin rally last week. They know how effective dividing Democrats was.

  78. 78.

    Salty Sam

    What are we going to do to make this moment not something that is just a fleeting flash point of activism, but actually creating a permanent organizing ability for women?”…

    So gratifying to see women, POC, and the left side of the political spectrum digging in to do what the right has done for the past 40 + years.

    There are more of us than them- if we pull in the same direction, change WILL happen.

  79. 79.

    Betty Cracker

    For the duration of the final season (only three more weeks now), every Monday after a new Game of Thrones episode should be a paid day off. I couldn’t sleep last night thinking about all the outrage last night’s twist would generate among a certain type of fan, i.e., the same ones who shit a cat about the all-female Ghostbusters remake, etc. Heh!

  80. 80.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    I’ve been reading Bernie and his (paid) campaign people and that campaign has as a central part of its message that “establishment Democrats” are one of Bernie’s enemies.

    They think this is somehow avoiding the issue of attacking Democrats- attacking this nameless group of people – but I don’t think it does, and I don’t think that’s how voters will hear it. Voters will hear that Bernie has three enemies- billionaires, Republicans and Democrats.

    I’d love for someone to ask Bernie Sanders or his surrogates to name the “establishment Democrats” who are their enemies. It’s the usual Sander’s campaign cowardice not to name them.

  81. 81.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    Yep. Trump did that all through 2016, and Bernie said nothing. That’s my biggest beef with him post- convention. He let his name be used to promote that lie. Of course, it was his lie.

  82. 82.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker: You mean they couldn’t see the obvious freight train coming down the tracks?

    for the record, I can’t watch it now so I do not know the particulars and would appreciate not delving into them at this moment, but one has to be willfully unobservant to miss the fact that the women of the show were taking over for a couple seasons now. It’s one of the best things about it.

  83. 83.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    Bernie’s campaign exaggerates his competitiveness v Trump. They now regularly post GE polls that have him 2 or 3 up from Trump, which IMO is a bad number for him. I think he should do better than 2 or 3 over Trump if he is as popular as he says he is.

    I think they know it’s a bad number, but they have adopted the Trumpian tactic of just saying ridiculous things over and over and thus making them “true”.

  85. 85.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    Trump never named any Mexican restaurant rapists either. Their bases don’t care about evidence, which has the downside of being subject to scrutiny and verification.

  86. 86.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    I was actually surprised when I saw the GE polls. I would have guessed Bernie would be up MORE v Trump and I can’t stand Bernie. I would have said “7” if I had to guess.

  87. 87.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay:

    as a central part of its message that “establishment Democrats” are one of Bernie’s enemies.

    Back during the 2016 primaries I had conversations with a # of BS supporters who just could not understand the selfdefeating logic of this shit. I mean, who’s gonna help him get his stuff thru Congress?

  89. 89.

    Another Scott

    ‘morning everyone.

    Thanks for the pointers, AL.

    A painless way to donate to a group of one’s choice is to take some of Bezos’ money.

    If you use Amazon and haven’t signed up already, go to Smile.amazon.com and sign up. 0.5% of your total order – for as long as you use it – will be given to the charity of your choice at no cost to you. VoteRiders.org and many, many other groups are in the program.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  90. 90.

    Kay

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    This is campaign stuff. It’s the ordinary somewhat cynical “positioning” that political candidates do and Bernie people are supposedly too good and pure to engage in. They know he has to be an “insurgent”so therefore it’s essential he distance himself from the Democratic Party. I don’t mind if they do it, but they should cut the shit about how pure they are. It’s bullshit. This is what I can’t stand about him- and I blame him, not his campaign people.

  91. 91.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: that’s assuming he had a goal of getting things through Congress. That hasn’t been an actual goal of his for 25 years, why would he change now?
    @Kay: you should blame him, because he’s the source of it.

  92. 92.

    Kay

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    You know what would be great and transparent and also fair? If someone hacked Bernie Sanders campaign emails. That might be interesting for voters. Then we’d find out the names on the enemies list. They were all so thrilled with the Clinton hack and used it to great effect to help elect Trump. Let’s see theirs. They were all such fans of transparency for Hillary Clinton they should also support release of all their own communications.

  93. 93.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay: Disagree. DEM candidates take oppositional positions on issues, or how the Party is run, but I don’t recall a single one to have trashed the party for decades, than run to be the head of it on the basis that the party is from top to bottom made up of corrupt hacks only in it for themselves.

  95. 95.

    schrodingers_cat

    @OzarkHillbilly: @Kay: I judge people by what they do more than what they say. BS is good on the rhetoric but his actions have been damaging to the Ds. His followers and he himself attacks Ds far more than he does the Rs. His goal is to do the Ds what T has done to the Rs.
    His faction is our Tea Party. If both major parties descend into la la land thinking then Putin and his minions have no resistance left. Divide and conquer. It has worked for a tiny country trying to dominate a major power much bigger than it before.

  96. 96.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Yep, I see Sanders’ fundraising emails too, and the subject line is always something like “We’re under attack,” and the attackers are always unnamed Democrats. That’s the message that compels the fan base to send money, I guess, because they return to it over and over. Neera Tanden is this year’s Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

  99. 99.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    Oh, it’s overt. And it’s not random Berniacs on Twitter:

    Bernie Sanders
    ‏Verified account
    The good news is that Trump is getting nervous, corporate America is getting nervous and the Democratic establishment is getting nervous. They’re worried that we’re going to win this thing, and they should be.

    I just need him to define this. Unlike him, I’m a Democrat and I would like to know who among us he considers enemies. I’d like a list, but alternately he could exclude people. He can start with D’s in Congress. Who’s on the enemies list? Are they allowed to disagree with him and stay off the list? How does that work? What are the requirements?

  102. 102.

    Kay

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. That’s the operating theory of Wikileaks and the Bernie campaign. So let’s see all of it- it should be released strategically too, like Clinton’s was, for maximum effect.

  105. 105.

    Sab

    @Kay: To be perfectly fair to Bernie and Berniacs, a lot of Democrats are his enemies. I certainly dislike him and his intensely.

  106. 106.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay:

    I would like to know who among us he considers enemies.

    You are Kay, of that we can be sure.

  107. 107.

    chopper

    @rikyrah:

    they bring her on because she’s decent at pushing the RW talking point every time some white right-wing asshole shoots up a synagogue – “obviously the liberals are to blame for this”.

  108. 108.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @schrodingers_cat:

    His faction is our Tea Party.

    Truth. I live it. Our local/state Wilmer faction spends ALL of their time attacking Dems (at all levels: county, state, national) and curiously NONE of their time attacking the GOP and the grievous harm it’s doing. Their only (occasional) acknowledgement of GOP malfeasance is to blame the Dems for letting the GOP do it.

  109. 109.

    scuffletuffle

    @satby: I am also a side sleeper, but had no trouble at all adjusting to a partial (nose only) or full (nose and mouth) face mask. I felt better immediately after only one night of sleep with the CPAP-it was a life changer.

  111. 111.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Maybe Biden can ask Sanders to name names at the first debate. I’m not thrilled about Biden’s candidacy and don’t foresee him taking out Sanders the way some folks hope. But someone needs to ask Sanders that question. Tip-toeing around that cantankerous coot in hopes that that will mollify him and his fanatics seems as tiresome and cowardly as a defensive crouch in response to Republican extremism. Enough!

  112. 112.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @schrodingers_cat: In my experience, most Ds do not give him the benefit of the doubt and recognize him exactly for who he is. It’s the folks who never were Ds but view themselves as “progressives” who idolize him. They entered the party in order to make it over into Wilmer’s image. They’re a small but noisy faction and can be exhausting to deal with.

    ETA: To be fair, I know a few Wilmerites who are alltered their views about the Party after getting involved and are wonderful to work with. They discovered the Party is not the malevolent entity they imagined it was, but just a collection of ordinary people trying to make a difference. A dose of reality can do wonderful things…for those who want to see and be positive contributors.

  113. 113.

    Brachiator

    @Kay:

    Bernie Sanders
    ‏Verified account
    The good news is that Trump is getting nervous, corporate America is getting nervous and the Democratic establishment is getting nervous. They’re worried that we’re going to win this thing, and they should be.

    This in a nutshell why Sanders and his flock annoy the shit out of me. The Democratic Party has somehow failed Wilmer, but he wants to use it as a spring board to the presidency.

  114. 114.

    schrodingers_cat

    @O. Felix Culpa: There have been multiple threads on here with a fair number of commenters saying that they would crawl over broken glass to vote for BS if he is the nominee. That stuff just encourages his scorched earth policy against Ds.

  116. 116.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    I don’t even like the Center for American Progress and it bugs me when they portray them as this spooky cabal pulling strings. My objection to CAP isn’t that they are centrists- it’s that they are bad at presenting a centrist D position. I read their suggestion for a student loan fix and jesus fucking christ it could be exhibit A in “this is why people hate centrist Democrats”. It’s this long, convoluted series of steps that essentially changes nothing except to make administering and collecting student loans more efficient. Centrist Democrats should get better if they want to survive challenge from the Left. They’re bad. They should get better, Bernie or no Bernie.

  117. 117.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @schrodingers_cat: I read those comments somewhat differently. I hear them as acknowledging the awfulness of BS, but that T is so bad they would feel compelled to vote for the former (despite their loathing) if given no other choice. I get what you’re saying about encouraging BS (and his followers), but I don’t think they take us and what we say/think into account at all.

  118. 118.

    Brachiator

    @Betty Cracker:

    For the duration of the final season (only three more weeks now), every Monday after a new Game of Thrones episode should be a paid day off. I couldn’t sleep last night thinking about all the outrage last night’s twist would generate among a certain type of fan, i.e., the same ones who shit a cat about the all-female Ghostbusters remake, etc. Heh!

    I like the paid day off idea, if only because I felt like I had been through a wringer from Endgame on Saturday and Thrones on Sunday.

    But I also take your other point. Also for the past couple of seasons, the women characters have been moving into the center of the drama. And in this last episode I even appreciated how a relatively minor character like the Red Witch was dealt with.

  119. 119.

    satby

    @O. Felix Culpa: I left the local Indivisible group over all the Wilmer fellating and Democratic party bashing.
    @OzarkHillbilly: I am too. If it comes down to Wilmer vs Trump, I’ll be heading out of the country immediately after I carry my barf bag out of the voting booth after I vote.

  120. 120.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    And I’m not saying they have to change ideologically. They have to offer better centrist ideas. If they don’t have any better ideas than “long convoluted plans for student loans that mostly act to protect lenders” then someone should replace them, because these are bad ideas that will be unpopular.

  121. 121.

    schrodingers_cat

    @O. Felix Culpa: I think he will be a bigger disaster for the Democratic party and a different kind of a disaster than T in the WH. The press will not be in the D corner if President BS starts flailing, which he will because other than pithy slogans he has nothing much to offer.

  123. 123.

    Brachiator

    @schrodingers_cat:

    He certainly behaves like a Putin/Russian plant who has been deployed to destroy the Ds from within.

    I think he is more annoying than effective. And I think he would be more dangerous if he were a better candidate. I will even grant that he has his moments. But he doesn’t really learn from past mistakes and he really doesn’t have much to offer in the way of policy or ideas.

    But yeah, if he were somehow the last candidate standing, I would vote for him over Trump. But I will also do everything I can to support the better candidates.

  124. 124.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @satby: I left the local Indivisible group over all the Wilmer fellating and Democratic party bashing.

    Interesting. One of my D co-workers originally was very involved in one of our most active Indivisible groups, but left some time ago. I’ll have to ask if that was her experience too. As I mentioned upthread, a few of the Wilmerites who became active in the party in 2017 (when I did) saw that we were not some evil cabal, but just regular folks trying to make a difference. One of my best and dearest volunteers is from that group. I’m fine with them advocating for more left-wing policies; in fact, I support many of their ideas. But there’s a destructive cadre as well and we’re struggling with how to handle them on both the county and state levels.

    ETA: Apologies for block-quote fail.

  125. 125.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: The problem is, for militant centrists, all the good centrist ideas — like the ACA -+ have been enacted.

  126. 126.

    Betty Cracker

    @schrodingers_cat: Multiple threads? I don’t know about that, but even if true, I’m skeptical that “Our Revolution” monitors Balloon Juice and twirls its mustache and claps its hands with glee every time a Democrat says she’ll hold her nose and vote for Sanders if he’s the nominee.

    Sanders’ very first hires telegraphed his scorched earth strategy, and of course he’s banking on Democrats falling in line if he wins the nomination, just like the Clinton campaign banked on Sanders primary voters falling in line in 2016, which most who were actually Democrats did. It’s what sane people do when faced with a choice between a politician they don’t like and a fucking fascist.

  127. 127.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @schrodingers_cat: He will be a disaster. The only comfort for me is that he probably won’t put children in cages. It is my fervent hope that he does not win. As county party chair, I’m not permitted to endorse or openly support candidates in the primaries. We have a late primary and relatively few delegates, so the outcome will most likely be decided before we get a chance to vote.

  128. 128.

    Immanentize

    @Betty Cracker: but with Biden in the race, things look quite different for Sanders. He will win neither Iowa nor New Hampshire — both bastions of old-time centrist Dems, not Bernistas.

    So when Bernie says “the Democratic Establishment” I think that will become much sharper attacks on Biden.

  129. 129.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Immanentize:

    but with Biden in the race, things look quite different for Sanders. He will win neither Iowa nor New Hampshire — both bastions of old-time centrist Dems, not Bernistas.

    You’re making me feel much better about Uncle Joe being in the race! :)

  130. 130.

    Betty Cracker

    @Immanentize: Maybe the solution is to recognize the Overton window shift and redefine “centrism” so it encompasses a framework like Warren’s Accountable Capitalism Act.

  132. 132.

    Gin & Tonic

    @schrodingers_cat: Not me. I have been voting for actual Democrats my whole life, and I will vote for one in 2020, even if I have to write a name in.

    Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat.

  133. 133.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Betty Cracker: There were at least two.
    https://balloon-juice.com/2019/04/19/team-broken-glass-open-thread/
    https://balloon-juice.com/2019/04/17/splitter-open-thread/

    He is more than just a politician I don’t like just like Kelly was more than just a General I didn’t like.
    BS thinks immigrants import poverty and wants more indefinite detention facilities, but continue to portray my opposition to BS as the D nominee as something silly.

    ETA: Politician I don’t love would be someone like PB . I would have no qualms about voting for him if he ends up being the nominee. Not so for BS.

  135. 135.

    schrodingers_cat

    @zhena gogolia:

    I’m worried about keeping him from being the nominee.

    We must do our best to not let that happen and shelve all these broken glass decisions until the results of the primaries are clear. BS acolytes want to shut down the debate about him and want us to accept him, right now. So let’s not help them.

  136. 136.

    germy

    If you really want to defeat Trump, refuse to support Biden and support Warrren. Supporting Biden is guaranteeing that Trump will win.— Susan of Texas (@SusanofTexas) April 28, 2019

  138. 138.

    Baud

    @germy:

    I like Warren better too, but who the hell is Susan of Texas and why is her prognostication worthy of consideration?

  140. 140.

    Betty Cracker

    @schrodingers_cat: I suppose you can interpret those threads to be pro-Sanders if you’re motivated to do so, but it’s like calling “The Titanic” film pro-floating-on-broken-doors-in-the-North-Atlantic.

  141. 141.

    germy

    Keep in perspective when you see all these polls:
    "Asked to name the candidate they currently support, 54 percent of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents did not volunteer anyone. That figure is little changed from 56 percent in January.” https://t.co/WJKv2H6gZ3— Michelangelo Signorile (@MSignorile) April 28, 2019

  142. 142.

    satby

    @Baud: isn’t she a Kos poster?

    I share Tweets sometimes, but it’s a bulletin board with links, not a news site, and half the time people share things that feel good to them from people they wouldn’t amplify in real life.
    * Actually, I remember meeting her at Netroots nation, so yeah, she posts at Kos.

  145. 145.

    satby

    @Baud: I bugged out of there years earlier, but I volunteered for the gathering in Chicago in the earliest days of the 2008 election cycle (pretty sure it was Oct.2007). I handed out badges to speaker attendees, so I briefly met and spoke with a lot of writers.
    Edit: think it was called Yearly Kos, not Netroots Nation back then.

  146. 146.

    tobie

    @Kay: I will check out CAP’s education plan. I was surprised this past week to learn that average student debt is $25K and that most borrowers comes from upper middle class families. It’s not what I expected. I think promising free tuition at public universities for families earning less than $150,000 would make it possible for those who can least afford it to go to college. Isn’t that what we’re aiming for? For my money this is still the most solid education plan I’ve seen.

  148. 148.

    Kathleen

    @rikyrah: @O. Felix Culpa: He had no problem voting for shipment of toxic waste to poor immigrant community in Texas. I see him as no better than Trump. He will destroy the country and Dems’ chance to govern for years.

  149. 149.

    satby

    @Kathleen: totally agree. He’d set progressive governance back for at least two terms if not a generation. Just like we’re hoping Trump does for conservative governance. Two sides of the same old narcissistic coin.

  150. 150.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Kathleen: I don’t worry about that prospect, as I see at least an even chance he gets zero EV’s if he’s the nominee. It’ll resemble 1972.

  151. 151.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Kathleen: Wow, in moderation for this?

    I don’t worry about that prospect, as I see at least an even chance he gets zero EV’s if he’s the nominee. It’ll resemble 1972.

  153. 153.

    Gin & Tonic

    @satby: I don’t worry about that prospect, as I see at least an even chance he gets zero EV’s if he’s the nominee. It’ll resemble 1972.

  154. 154.

    Gravenstone

    @rikyrah:

    How does she keep getting called on to discuss anti-Semitism?

    She answers when asked. That those answers range from ignorant to just plain toxic doesn’t matter to the people asking her. Not sure if it’s entirely, or just mostly having to do with who her father was.

  156. 156.

    tobie

    O’Rourke has released his first policy statement on addressing climate change. It’s very comprehensive and I’m not yet able to piece together all the provisions or the financing mechanism(s). What I like is the emphasis on the pervasiveness of carbon in all aspects of modern life from farming and ranching to the production of common building materials (cement, glass) to every big and small appliance we use. I would like to see more emphasis on rail but will read through it again to see if I missed it. There’s a section on funding research that, I assume, would cover the pursuit of new battery technology. O’Rourke gets bonus points for explaining upfront how climate change and unregulated energy production affect communities of color in particular. Any insight on the financing part would be appreciated. I sort of tuned out there.

  157. 157.

    ruemara

    @satby: It’s actually not. It’s them wanting fealty before even the first debate, because they want to tack to the right to pick up the mythological white working class trump voter who can be wooed. They want to be able to piss on identity politics, civil rights gains, Obama, Hillary and the ACA while sidestepping the main base’s issues but still come back and get our notes.

  158. 158.

    germy

    i think biden's overall message – that the one bad republican is trump and that he's an aberration we can just undo like a thanos snap and get back to the good place – is not very good and could actually be long-term harmful.
    its also a powerful and probably majority pov on left
    — Oliver Willis (@owillis) April 28, 2019

  159. 159.

    Brachiator

    @schrodingers_cat:

    BS thinks immigrants import poverty and wants more indefinite detention facilities, but continue to portray my opposition to BS as the D nominee as something silly.

    I vaguely recall coming across a bit of nonsense from the ever deplorable Ann Coulter, saying that she agreed with Sanders’ past position on immigration. This kind of thing doesn’t just make him vulnerable. It makes him unacceptable.

    He was a “new face” last election cycle. This time around, the Democrats have ample opportunity to reveal him for the fraud that he really is.

  160. 160.

    Brachiator

    @germy:

    i think biden’s overall message – that the one bad republican is trump and that he’s an aberration we can just undo like a thanos snap and get back to the good place – is not very good and could actually be long-term harmful.
    its also a powerful and probably majority pov on left

    I don’t care. Every argument for getting rid of Trump is a good one. Or at least a good place to start.

    If you really want to defeat Trump, refuse to support Biden and support Warrren. Supporting Biden is guaranteeing that Trump will win.— Susan of Texas (@SusanofTexas)

    I don’t know who this is, and don’t much care.

  161. 161.

    Kay

    @tobie:

    Warren questions that analysis. She says including graduate school debt will inevitably make it appear as if debt relief helps higher income families more, because they have a greater share of graduate students.

    I question the politics of excluding middle class people and only offering help to “the poor”. I think that’s a recipe for low political support and a vulnerable program. Democrats used to know this- public programs have to be BROADLY beneficial or they don’t survive.

  162. 162.

    japa21

    @Brachiator: Pretty much agree with you. However, I don’t think that is Biden’s message. Just like I don’t think Biden is calling for going back to the “good old days”. I think Biden’s message is that Trump is a symbol of the corruption of the GOP and that it goes beyond just Trump. If it was only Trump, it wouldn’t be as dangerous for the country. But we can’t do anything without first getting Trump out of the way.

    And I think his message is that we have to get back to where our values have meaning again. This isn’t calling for a return back in time. In fact, he has stated that unless we regain those values, progressive change can’t happen and we can’t move forward.

    As to Susan of Texas, she is entitled to her beliefs as irrational as they may be.

  163. 163.

    japa21

    @Kay: The word “welfare” is anathema to many people, not just on the right, and any program that is exclusively for the “poor” is labeled with that term.

  164. 164.

    Matt McIrvin

    @rikyrah: I’ve seen Warren supporters saying that all over the Internet–LGM is filled with them, for instance, and try saying “if candidate X wins I’m staying home” over there.

  165. 165.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Kay: I never quite know what people mean when they complain about “centrists”– sometimes it’s David Brooks or No Labels foolishness, sometimes it’s Obama, sometimes it’s “anyone who doesn’t support Bernie Sanders” or “anyone who believes in voting at all”. It can make discussions very frustrating.

  166. 166.

    Matt McIrvin

    @scuffletuffle: It took me a month to get used to my CPAP. For the first few weeks I’d wake up several times a night with my nose hurting. Eventually learned that it didn’t have to be on super tight (some air leak is acceptable) and that I had to wash it constantly to keep my face from breaking out in painful pimples. Once I could sleep through the night with the mask on, it was great.

  167. 167.

    tobie

    @Kay: I see your point about the stigma attached to programs that are seen as only benefitting the poor. On the other hand the poor invariably end up paying for programs that benefit the rich. Warren’s claim is that her wealth tax will fund her education proposal. If that falls through — or fails to generate the revenue she says — financing will fall to those who pay state and federal taxes (meaning the working poor and middle class).

  168. 168.

    Kay

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I would define centrists as people who avoid big changes, so in health care they would avoid changing from private health care companies and they would avoid anything that impacts providers. I think that’s true for student loans, too. They want to keep the same system, just better managed, which avoids reaching providers (colleges and universities) at all.

    I think there should be centrists in the D Party and I’m glad that there are- I just think they should take a serious look at why they’re less popular than they were. Maybe it’s because their ideas aren’t very good, even as centrist ideas.

  169. 169.

    Kay

    @tobie:

    On the other hand the poor invariably end up paying for programs that benefit the rich.

    But they’ll be benefiting from the programs too.

    We have a successful public preschool here. It’s great. Wildly popular and considered high quality. About half the kids are middle class or upper middle class. If we didn’t have them we wouldn’t have a preschool program, because people wouldn’t vote for it and fund it. So the 50% of our kids who are lower income are “paying for rich people’s preschool” but if they weren’t they wouldn’t get preschool at all and rich people would just go back to paying tuition for preschool. They’re fine either way.

  170. 170.

    Kay

    @tobie:

    What’s the only part of the ACA that Republicans fear? “Preexisting conditions” because middle and upper class and rich people like it. You put them IN FRONT of poor people, like a giant mob/shield and you’re golden :)

    You don’t cut poor people out of the herd! My God, they’ll lose everything.

  171. 171.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @Kay:
    Hi Kay!

    Have you heard the new Ohio Sec of State is going to start doing automatic voter registration?

  173. 173.

    tobie

    @Kay: Of course they would benefit. I’m not disagreeing just asking what it would cost. Warren posits her wealth tax will pay for it. I can’t judge her figures but articles like this give me pause. There are other forms of taxation I wish Democrats would talk about. Something is deeply wrong with the corporate tax code when Amazon, Netflix, Google, and Exxon manage to pay no federal tax. Who is the go-to person in the House for this? It used to be Capuano but I don’t know who has taken his place in this area of expertise.

  174. 174.

    germy

    @tobie: How do the rich benefit from free public college?

    The rich aren’t going to send their darlings to public colleges. They’ll send them to Harvard, Yale, Brown…

    It’s the poor and working class/lower middle who’ll benefit from debt-free community and state college.

  175. 175.

    Kay

    @tobie:

    Maybe it’s wholly political. If she says corporate taxes will pay for it she’s energizing huge, wealthy, organized entities with thousands of lobbyists who will kill it. If she goes after individual extremely wealthy people it’s easier, because there aren’t that many of them and they’re fragmented.

  176. 176.

    Kay

    @tobie:

    I would actually be fine with student loan relief plus two years at a college or trade school. I’d just make “public school” K-14, instead of K-12. We’re going to end there anyway, with some patched together contraption that will be insanely complicated. Let’s just get it over with. K-12 isn’t enough, like K-8 wasn’t enough when we made public high schools. We’ve done this before. People screamed then, too, and now look at us- 89% high school graduates.

  177. 177.

    Kay

    @tobie:

    The ACT test is free now for all public school students in Ohio. That benefits upper middle class, but it benefits lower class much, much more because most of them didn’t even take it. Our district actually has a free prep class now, too, which I KNOW pisses off the richer parents- there goes our edge! :)

    It’ll be interesting to see what happens.

  178. 178.

    tobie

    @germy: You have plenty of upper middle class and wealthy students at state schools. The UC system has in fact gotten frightfully expense because of cuts in federal and state aid. Some schools with large endowments by contrast now offer free tuition for low income students. At Stanford the cut-off in family income for free tuition is $125,000; at Harvard, it’s $150,000. Harvard also covers room and board for students from families that earn less that $65K. We live in strange times when it’s cheaper for someone to go to Stanford than to UC Berkeley. Public institutions should be there to serve the public.

  179. 179.

    tobie

    @Kay: That’s an interesting point. Warren did recently address corporate taxes. She proposed a surtax of 7% on corporate profits over $100 million, which to me makes sense given that few if any companies that size pay any tax, so 7% seems reasonable. I was grateful she added that to her policy agenda. Corporate taxes have become something of a litmus test for me.

  180. 180.

    Brachiator

    @tobie:

    Something is deeply wrong with the corporate tax code when Amazon, Netflix, Google, and Exxon manage to pay no federal tax. Who is the go-to person in the House for this? It used to be Capuano but I don’t know who has taken his place in this area of expertise.

    Good points. I am not dissing Warren, but her tax proposals are just soundbites that get some attention, although I think she and all the Democrats should resist the “how are you going to pay for it” nonsense.

    The Republicans fiddled with the whole damn, tax code. Individual, Corporation, Estate and Trust. The changes primarily benefit the wealthy, but also give primacy to business owners over people who work for wages. Legal immigrants with non-resident children get the shaft as Trump tries to create formal second class existence for bona fide refugees and working undocumented people.

    The entire freaking nightmare must be revisited.

    And of course, the Republicans totally froze the Democrats out of having anything to do with tax reform. Even in past years, when the public rhetoric was that all Democrats or Republicans were scum, the parties got together to deal with some areas where they agreed. Currently, there are errors and issues that need fixing (or taxpayers will be hurt) but unless the Democrats win a majority in both houses or some real bipartisanship takes place, these problems will only magnify.

    One final quick note/example:

    Warren did recently address corporate taxes. She proposed a surtax of 7% on corporate profits over $100 million, which to me makes sense given that few if any companies that size pay any tax, so 7% seems reasonable.

    The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act reduced the top corporate income tax rate from 35 percent to 21 percent and eliminated the graduated corporate rate schedule. The new law also repealed the corporate alternative minimum tax.

    So, the attack is to point out that Trump made it easier for corporations to pay no tax at all. Bring back the goddam corporate alternative minimum tax. Fuck the details early on.

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