I’m not going to try a hidden thread this time – the backend setup makes it hard to access, and the main thread will inevitably contain spoilers anyway. So, if you haven’t seen episode four and are trying to avoid spoilers, keep on scrolling past this post — with my apologies. Otherwise, see below the fold…
The Hound captured my reaction to this episode perfectly when he spotted Arya while riding away from Winterfell: “For fuck’s sake!” I’m nervous about Arya’s fate. She’s heading to King’s Landing to kill Cersei, I assume (perhaps wrongly). Will she kill Jaime and steal his face to do it? The face-stealing thing has to come back into play at some point, right?
But there’s no way the writers will let Arya end the Knight King and Cersei. My fear is she’ll steal Jaimie’s face to kill Cersei, but be killed in the attempt by the Mountain, who will in turn be killed by the Hound, who will get revenge not only for his own mistreatment by the Mountain but to avenge Arya.
That would wrap up those characters in a tidy bow. Hopefully that scenario is too tidy for the writers, who will find a way to surprise us. Speaking of surprises, the ones in last night’s episode were vile.
Goddamn it, not Missandei! Hasn’t Grey Worm suffered enough? I’ve got to think Missandei’s brave last word wasn’t in vain, though, which signals Cersei, the Mountain or both get roasted by the remaining dragon. Maybe. Someone does, for sure.
Another thing that pissed me off: Ser Brienne shown ugly-crying because her no-good boyfriend went back south. I don’t object to Jaimie’s leaving. I’ve never entirely trusted his transformation. It appears he has accepted his role as Cersei’s fool. Or maybe since Ser Bronn revealed Cersei’s plot on his and Tyrion’s lives, he’s going back to confront her?
Maybe Jaimie plans to kill Euron, if Arya doesn’t kill him (Jaimie) first. Somebody has to kill Euron! I would prefer it be Yara who takes out that smirking shit heel.
It would be cool if Ser Brienne, Yara and Arya survive and form an invincible all-woman pirate group. But the Iron Islanders have given up pirating, and Ser Brienne doesn’t strike me as a plunderer, not even to get over a broken heart.
Arya says she’s not going back to Winterfell. So, if she lives, where will she go?
If you go with the theory that the names of the dire wolves predict their humans’ fates, maybe Arya becomes a warrior queen like the legendary Nymeria, leading refugees to safety out of King’s Landing during the roasting. Maybe she connects with Nymeria the dire wolf again? I don’t know, but it seems unlikely we’ve heard the last of Arya’s dire wolf or the Nymeria legend.
Speaking of dire wolves, oh why did Jon Snow not even give poor Ghost an ear-scritch before lighting out for King’s Landing? And what was up with Jon’s and Tormund’s conversation about Jon belonging in the REAL north? It didn’t sound like small talk. It almost sounded as if that’s where he’ll ultimately land, reunited with Ghost. Will he give up the Iron Throne to be the new Mance Rayder? Seems like a demotion.
And what’s up with Sansa? I don’t blame her for being suspicious of Dany, but was she smart to blab about Jon’s true identity to Tyrion? And WTF is up with Varys? And Ser Bronn of the Blackwater/Highgarden?
Also, the Starbucks cup — funny mistake, or a sign that “Game of Thrones” was actually a bored barista’s daydream all along? What if the final scene of the last episode dissolves to…Dany as a barista in a green apron taking an order from an unpleasant and condescending high-powered executive, Cersei? Good God, I’ll throw a fucking brick through my screen if that happens!
Anyhoo, clearly I don’t have a fucking clue what’s coming next. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
Keith P.
Well, for starters, one of Ghost’s ears had already been torn off in battle.
clay
I can answer this one — because it would be expensive. They try not to have the direwolves actually interacting with a person in their shots; they are mostly composited in. It’s clear the showrunners decided that the dragons were a better use of their FX budget.
Ken
As much as I hate to admit it, Arya’s heroism against the Whitewalker King virtually guarantees her demise. The only question is when, and at whose hands. I suspect she will not kill someone in a face-changing guise — that’s too predictable — but be killed BY someone while she’s in a face-changing guise.
lee
The thing with Jamie and Brienne. Some are calling it a ‘White Fang’. He was purposely hurting her to distance her from his coming actions.
I have no idea if his next actions are going to KL to kill Cersie or marry her.
Hawes
Sansa told Tyrion because she knew it would set things in motion. She’s the only “operator” on par with Cersei in that regards. Also…can someone talk to Bran about stuff? I mean…”Hey, Bran, is there any reason to worry about sailing to Dragonstone with Euron’s fleet still around?” I know they thought they could burn the ships if they saw them, but….(And also, the Scorpions face front…fly around behind them, Dany…)
Betty Cracker
@Keith P.: Just the one, so that’s no excuse.
@clay: Okay, that makes more sense.
lurker dean
i hadn’t thought of mountain killing arya and then the hound killing the mountain. that makes a lot of sense.
i know bronn is a mercenary, but his history with both tyrion and jaime made that scene a little off to me.
VeniceRiley
I join black twitter in being beyond angry that Missandei died in chains.
I’m also getting angry at how they’re ruining Danerys. Personality transplant!
I’m starting to see the season as shoddy and slapdash. The creators had a disguised in beards cameo in that starbucks cup scene; so maybe everyone was distracted by that? Why would they not insist everyone with coffee pour it into flagons or whatever, I do not know.
I’m predicting Sansa will ultimately be the one sitting on the Iron Throne.
kindness
I think Jamie is going play a part in Cersi’s downfall. What was it the prophet told Cersi when she was still a girl? “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
So I guess we need to figure out who the valongar is.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
Things I liked: Arya turning down Gendry and hitting the road (again) with the Hound – seriously did Gendry actually think Arya would want to be a “highborn lady” ?!?
I also though the meeting between the Lannister brothers and Bronn was kind of fun, a Lannister always pays his debts, oh Really.
I hated that they killed Missandei and the entire Ship borne ballista (Umm waves/ship movement wtf) battle was ridiculous. I also hated that they had Ser Brienne crying and begging Jamie to stay,
Droppy
Who will end up on the Iron Throne? My guesses are: 1)no one – everything destroyed; 2) Tyrion with Sansa by his side?) after a bunch of death and manipulation; 3) Arya’s boyfriend, but no Arya.
Mike in NC
Summary of Episode 4: everybody cried about the dead, then everybody celebrated surviving and got drunk, and then most everybody got laid. The end.
Eural Joiner
This really feels like all of these arcs and developments needed more time to breath – the season should not have been so short, it really hurts the natural pacing of the conflicts that are being developed.
Also, stupid writing – that ship ambush was laughable and why you don’t fly your dragon behind the unturnable ships to lay waste and end the threat? Because plot. Cercei has her worst enemies before her, pretty much defenseless – especially Tyrion – and she does nothing? Because plot.
Such a great show that is soooo frustrating at the same time :(
p.a.
Sorry, off topic. RIP RHE…
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/us/rachel-held-evans.html
tobie
Sometimes I think Sansa will take the Iron Throne but then I’m reminded that Melisandre said the Lord of Light told her the next occupant would be a Baratheon, so I’m now wondering if Arya didn’t get pregnant during her one roll in the hay and is carrying a Starck-Baratheon baby who will ascend to the throne while still nursing.
Is the Starbuck’s coffee cup for real? Wow…can’t believe I didn’t notice.
CaseyL
The showrunners are carrying on Martin’s tradition of killing and/or degrading characters people like. It’s an adolescent pov that “grimdark” is more meaningful or real. And I’m pretty sick of it.
TenguPhule
The next hidden in plain sight advertisement will be a Big Mac.
Or a Coke bottle.
Brachiator
Despite looking Death in the face, people return to their petty views of reality. Sansa seems to want to protect the North and see it separate from the other realms above everything else. Tyrion was exactly the person to talk to. On the other hand, Jon Snow still knows nothing. He is too stubbornly like Ned Stark, stuck on honor and foolishly expecting others to be honorable as well.
This last season feels rushed. I almost wish there was another, or more episodes to this one. But I do appreciate how the actions of Sansa, Tryrion, Varys, and Bronn are consistent with their characters.
Oh, God! I almost want that final scene.
@Eural Joiner:
I don’t know. I got the impression that the Scorpions could be rotated. The stupid writing was in having both Tryion and Varys holed up in Winterfell, and nobody doing any scouting of the defenses at King’s Landing. They know that Cersei is treacherous and imaginative, but instead of gathering intelligence, they keep going at her directly.
TenguPhule
@CaseyL:
There’s a reason his books are nicknamed “Rape and Murder Everyone Likable” the series.
Mike in NC
I recall how HBO ruined the last season of “Boardwalk Empire” by jumping ahead 5-10 years or so and trying to wrap things up in a big hurry.
WhatsMyNym
Doesn’t really look like a Starbucks cup. Outline of logo is wrong, and do they use brown paper cups anywhere?
JR
It was quite a trick when Euron got his hands on M61 Vulcans…
lee
@Eural Joiner: I’m not sure why they decided to only have 6 episodes for this last bit. It certainly does seem to make things seem a bit rushed.
She also didn’t see the ships from her vantage point high above everyone. Is it lazy writing or they just don’t give a shit anymore as they have their money?
Betty Cracker
@tobie: The cup is real. I didn’t notice it in real time either and wondered if it was a Twitter fake, but I went back and checked, and the cup is there.
Walker
Arya is dead. No question there.
The thing about this season. Apparently Martin did tell them his planned end of the series. But at the time it was probably no more than an outline. That is why this season feels like Cliff Notes. They are probably wary of adding to much beyond the outline.
JR
@VeniceRiley: Dany as a tyrant is just about the only thing the show runners haven’t fucked up.
To paraphrase Robespierre, you can’t liberate people at the barrel of a gun.
lee
@Mike in NC: Well I guess they are at least consistent…right?
TenguPhule
@WhatsMyNym: The safety cover really is a dead giveaway that it doesn’t belong there.
lee
@Walker: I think the popular consensus is that Arya is the only one we know makes it out alive.
Martin’s wife told him she would divorce him if he killed her off. Now the show could deviate from the book, but I’m pretty sure she makes it out alive in the books.
CaseyL
@TenguPhule: I remember how that attitude ruined Wild Cards and Fevre Dream for me. I just won’t tolerate nihilism for its own sake in my entertainments anymore, since I am no longer an adolescent.
catclub
but don’t they sting with their tails?
Jager
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone:
Dany has enough experience flying and fighting with her dragons, she should have made a pass on the ships from the rear and burned the damn sails off them.
donnah
I felt like I could catch my breath at the beginning of this episode, so my sofa pillow got a break from strangling. But killing the second dragon was horrific and I’m never forgiving them for killing dragons. Gdammit, they are sacred and spectacular!
My favorite scene of all the series was when Dany walked naked from the flaming hut, destroying all of her tormenters and proving her strength and courage. I don’t want her to be destroyed. I will be out of town for next week’s key episode and I am going to have to avoid spoilers until I get home. Aaarrgghh!
Eural Joiner
@Brachiator:
Rotated so they could be fired into their own rigging?
Not that big a deal (this is after all a fiction/fantasy show) but too many instances of this (like in the last episode) pull you out of the moment and you end up mocking scenes that should have been dramatic and impactful.
WhatsMyNym
@TenguPhule:
If you expand the pic, the brown is even all over the cup – no safety cover unless it’s full height. Since the lid is white the color of the cup is is not white, a light brownish color. Too much of the lighter color in the center of the logo to be Starbucks. It just doesn’t match a Starbucks logo.
ETA: and what are the odds the logo would face the camera?
Betty Cracker
@kindness: Maybe you’re right and Jaimie is intent on taking down Cersei, or at least trying to. When Ser Brienne told him about Euron’s ambush, you could see the wheels turning, as if he hadn’t planned to go running back to Cersei until he heard that. I guess that could go either way, but it seems weird that the news would make him more motivated to return to his evil(er) twin.
germy
NotMax
@WhatsMyNym
7-11.
@lee
So the final scene of the last episode will be her waking up in bed with Bob Newhart.
:)
Amir Khalid
Maybe someone will take a sip from the Starbucks cup and then exclaim, “What is this strange drink? Have you poisoned me?”
Sab
@clay: Is is just me, or is Ghost always lit from a different direction than eveyone else in a scene? Makes him stand out and look ghostly, but it’s still kind of weird.
jl
Modern coffee shops have all modeled their disposable coffee cups on those historically used for Dornish wine, or whatever the hell that shit is supposed to be. Everyone knows this.
Eural Joiner
@lee:
Yep. On a show with this many resources and great talent to consult there really is no excuse for it – except everyone is just wanting to knock out the product and keep moving on and cash in on the next big thing (at least writer/show runner wise)
TenguPhule
@Amir Khalid:
And the response will be: “No, its supposed to taste like burned mud.”
Brachiator
@clay:
Yep. Very clear explanation. It would be very interesting to see a reboot of Game of Thrones 10 to 20 years from now, when effects might become much less expensive. You could also digitally create younger versions of characters for flashbacks, have more battle scenes, etc.
clay
@lee: Budget, I think. This season and the last were supposed to be one 10 episode season, but the show runners wanted more space. HBO said okay, you can have 2 more seasons, but they’ll be shorter.
At this point, I’d imagine the entire cast and crew just wants it over with so they can go home.
Betty Cracker
@donnah: I’m going to be out of town too, but I’ll watch it on my damned phone if I have to! :)
RAVEN
Grateful Dead — Dire Wolf
patroclus
Personally, I still can’t believe that Rickon didn’t zigzag. I mean, like, WTF?!!
A Clegane Bowl will certainly happen. Varys is going to die horribly – it’s been foreshadowed multiple times. Jon and Dany are Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York and will reign jointly. Sansa will live with it – her suspicions right now are just a late plot twist. Cersei will die and I’m predicting Jamie being the Valonqar. Tyrion will be Hand; Samwell Archmaester. If I were there, I’d be talking to Bran every single second I could – why don’t they do that??!!!
Brachiator
@Eural Joiner:
They had them shooting into Dany’s navy as well as the dragons. Maybe they had side and rear mounted weapons as well. But again, it’s a fantasy show with dragons and fantasy weapons. Again, I had more of a problem with the lack of intelligence gathering than with the ambush and battle.
@JR:
The rulers all have been tyrants. Dany just tried to be more enlightened.
Whatever happened to that guy?
lee
@patroclus: My predictions:
I think Dany goes ‘mad king’ and Jon kills her to prevent the death of many thousands in KL.
Cersei is killed by Jamie
Hound & Arya kill Mountain.
NotMax
@Brachiator
Opened a head shop.
;)
Brachiator
@CaseyL:
What else are you going to do with them?
Mary G
It made no sense whatsoever that Cersei had a pathetic little troop of Unsullied in front of her behind Dany and Tyrion and just doesn’t let that hand fall and let the massive numbers of archers and scorpions wipe them all out.
I hated Brienne hooking up with Jamie. His whiplashing between good guy and bad guy is ridiculous. I want her to go north, find Tormund and make a lot of giant babies.
oldgold
Best line of the night:
Tormund: “Which one of you cowards sh*t in my pants?”
VeniceRiley
@Betty Cracker:
yeah, I thought the reason they mentioned Jaime was staying behind in Winterfell was because he, obviously, would not want to be involved with the violent overthrow of his own sister. But once the Bronn scene played out it was full on F me? F HER! and he’s going to kill her dead. (Though I would love it if Arya did it wearing his face. I agree they won’t have her do that, since she got to kill the whole series’ big bad.)
Betty Cracker
@lee: Maybe. I still hold out hope for Dany. The show seems to be giving her the villain edit so far this season, but maybe it’s just to throw us off the scent.
I really liked that conversation between Tyrion and Varys in the hold of the ship before the Greyjoy fleet attack. It was hard not to get flashbacks to world politics when they spoke of the importance of good rule to millions of people who “don’t care about who sits on the Iron Throne.”
A not-so-subtle reminder that who rules is important whether you care or not!
James E Powell
One of the worst episodes of the entire series. I could go on for quite a while, but these three stick out.
1) If the writers felt like they had to kill Rhaegal to bring the opposing forces into parity, why not have him die dramatically in the Battle of Winterfell? The whole Dragonstone episode was ridiculous. The fleet lying in wait with scorpions that are more accurate than modern navy guns wasn’t even the worst part of it.
2) At the big council of war, Varys states that Cersei is losing allies. Two minutes later, Daenerys says the longer they wait the stronger Cersei gets. Which is it?
3) Every single person has agreed on several occasions that it is useless to talk to Cersei. So the big plan is to talk to Cersei.
sherparick
Someday we will get the story of how the CGI budget for special effects (particularly Dire Wolves and Dragons and Battles) ate up the budget and forced the Show Runners to do in 13 episodes when there should have 20 to explore the character arc changes and avoid the time compression jumps we have gotten in Seasons 7 & 8.
One scene I sure would have wanted to see, and which I expect was drop on the cutting room floor, was the meeting in the godswood between Arya, Sansa, and Bran where she tells them that she is leaving to go South to take care of some unfinished business in King’s Landing and that it was unlikely she would return and they discuss Jon/Aegon, brother/cousin, and the Dragon Queen they don’t particularly like or trust despite her sacrifices in the War with the Night King.
Martin steals a lot from Shakespeare and so do the Showrunners. Cersei is very much Richard III and we know how he ends. Danerys and the Showrunners may surprise us with how the story arc is tending and end up Elizabeth I type figure, who could alternate between temperate and tyrannical and had a very uneasy relationship with the North of England and Scotland during her reign. If you seen or read Shakespeare, deaths of favorite characters in his tragedies are common. See Cordelia’s death in King Lear or Desdemona’s death in Othello or MacDuff’s wife and children in MacBeth. Actions now have consequences for story telling effect. Jon betrays Dany by telling Sansa and Arya that he is really a Targaryen. Sansa betrays Jon by telling Tyrion, Tyrion betrays Dany by telling Varys (who according to the back story frustrated Rhaegar’s attempts to call a great council and get his father removed as King before the Baretheon rebellion). Missandei’s death resulting from Euron’s second ambush (Varys seem to keep Dany poorly informed about Euron’s wear abouts and Qyburn development of dragin killing scorpions – it seems pretty clear that he has decided to cut Dany down to size for the sake of the realm).
Brachiator
@NotMax: OT: You are probably aware of this latest on the recent Firefox problem:
sherparick
@James E Powell: Yes, but we are talking about shows with dragons. Again, I wonder how much of this is budget driven (why let Snow survive the Long Night only to send him out of the story into the North? A sudden budget notice that the CGI for the Dire wolf is cut?). The council of War and Dany’s decisions are kind of nuts and inconsistent. I guess it is to suggest that Dany, after losing a Dragon and much of her Army feels that time is no longer on her side and that she has gone a bit nuts?
I do think this episode will grow on people with time.
Brachiator
The GOT Starbucks error has, of course, inspired a meme.
Betty Cracker
@sherparick: Good points. Personally, I don’t see Jon’s telling Sansa and Arya his true identity as a betrayal; unlike Sansa, Jon didn’t swear he wouldn’t spill the beans. Dany gave him an ultimatum, and he chose to do what he told Dany upfront he HAD to do. It kind of makes sense to me that Sansa told Tyrion, though that definitely was breaking a vow.
As for Arya telling her siblings she was heading south, would she have, though? Maybe, but it also seems in character for her to slink off without a word to take care of business on her own. I agree that Varys seems determined to undermine Dany, but I don’t think he’s complicit in the ambush or weapons intelligence failure. Interesting theory, though. The little birds and all…
prostratedragon
@Brachiator: More possibly bad news from that article:
What, pray tell, is that supposed to be about?
Btw, if you want the current version, 66.04 does come without this weekend’s add-on problem. The opensuse rpm I got had a strange default where sites not using Mozilla’s choice for https on their servers were completely inaccessible (lots of widely-visited sites), or for some like Ballon Juice that were only partly affected, visible only in unformatted monospace. The fix is to go to about:config and change network.http.spdy.enabled.http2 from true to false.
sherparick1
@Mike in NC: Yep. GoT may have been a huge money maker for HBO but they still put them on a budget. Season 6, the last season with 10 episodes, had a budget of $100 million dollars. This season,six episodes, had a budget to $90 million. So $15 million per episode versus $10 million. We get more CGI effects, but less character and plot development.
Peter
Dany doesn’t deserve to rule for the sole reason that she has squandered two thirds of the only air force on that planet by flying too low and doing no reconnaissance. Among several other tactical tragedies. Yeesh.
I have decided that the best possible ending for the series is this: everyone dies. All of them, except Tyrion. The last five minutes of the last episode are devoted to one long shot of him trying and failing to climb up onto the Iron Throne. Finally, he turns to look straight into the camera and says “Mother FUCKER.” Roll credits.
NotMax
@Brachiator
Yeah, am not the only unhappy camper about that. Although can understand their giving priority to the Quantum versions.
JimV
I didn’t see any rear-mounted spear-shooters. I expect they didn’t have them for the same reason that Dany didn’t fly behind the ships and make the front shooters shoot through the masts: the writers didn’t think of it.
For me, the books were pretty good until they petered out. I haven’t wanted to follow the series (after a few tries) until it got past the books, but everything good I’ve seen in it came from the books, and everything pretty bad was the series writer’s ideas. It is much the same with movies. The best ones are made from good books (e.g., “Gorky’s Park”, “Presumed Innocent”, “Silence of the Lambs”). Otherwise, five minutes after they’re over I start seeing all the logical or practical flaws. (Don’t get me started on “The Usual Suspects”.)
What about Hodor’s death scene? Yup, would have been in the books. GRRM’s idea from the beginning.
For me the killing of main characters (Ned Stark, the Red Wedding) works. That is, I hate it when it happens, but it engages (and enrages) the heck out of me, and I have to keep reading. Got to. Again, I mean the ones GRRM plotted which can’t be seen coming a mile away.
Partly, I think, it is because books have trial-readers and editors and have been researched, and partly because if script-writers could write great novels they would (and wouldn’t be script-writers). Not that I could even be a script-writer. Probably.
R-Jud
It was always going to be hard to stick the landing on a story this size. Benioff and Weiss are better at editing/ cutting than they are at inventing new ideas, so the fact that they’ve basically had a list of bullet points to go by, rather than whole books full of characters’ inner monologues, means the plotting was inevitably going to suffer.
If Davos dies, though, I riot.
Nicole
I am so tired of Euron’s magic fleet of conveniently invisible warships.
Not happy with Missandei’s end, though props for her final word being instructions to Dany to burn it all. And I assume the writers were trying to do a parallel with Ned Stark’s execution- pointless cruelty by the monarch that sets off a lot of death and destruction. Nevertheless, do NOT like her being fridged in order for Dany’s arc to continue. Not cool, writers.
I will, however, defend Brienne’s ugly cry. Whatever else Ser Brienne is, she is, and always has been, a romantic. She fell in love with Renley (and ugly cried over his death), because he was kind to her when she needed someone to be kind to her. She knew he wasn’t interested in women, but she loved him anyway. Total chivalric love for her. She loved Jaime because, for all of the nasty things he’s says to her, he acts like a knight to her (spoke up to stop her being raped, came back to rescue her from the bear, and I think she was the first person to whom he told the whole story of killing Aerys II). And she’s been in love with Jaime for years- Cersei called her out on it at Joffrey’s wedding. She’s brave and she’s tough, but she has a romantic’s heart. Like all good knights should. And to finally, after years, get what she longed for, but then see that person return to a toxic situation- well, any of us who have had addicts in our family are familiar with that feeling of despair. My big complaint is that they really needed a few episodes of them together for his betrayal (if that’s what he’s doing) to have had enough weight for the audience.
I wanted Jon to give Ghost to Sansa, because I always felt for her losing Lady because of something over which she had no control.
Tenar Arha
@kindness: @patroclus:
And since this is the case, & Cersei has been both driven & utterly wrong about the prophesy every step of her life, it seems likely that her younger twin Jamie is going to be the one that kills her.
But it’s an arguable fake out on top of that. Because who the “little brother” is isn’t clear either. Remember High Valyrian is apparently gender neutral, which means that really the prophecy says “little sibling.” And there’s two other bonfide “little siblings” traveling to King’s Landing now.
Ellenr
I see Brienne crying because someone she loves appears to have made a disastrous decision. Sansa only cares about the North. John Snow is dead, so he can’t be king of anything. HBO is now owned by Disney. Nothing good can come of this.
Adam
My biggest fear is that Daenerys will win the throne but lose the last dragon in the process, and will contemplate whether it was all worth it, and the last 15 minutes of the show will just be her sitting on the throne in all black, with a bunch of piercings, listening to Simple Plan and Dashboard Confessional.
Fair Economist
There is a frequent problem in fiction these days where the ending gets very rushed. I’ve seen assorted claims that you want to “up the pace” and introduce new problems at the end to get the excitement up but I think fiction writers take it too far. Naturally it’s particularly problematic on TV series and movies where there is often a time limit but I see it in books too.
NotMax
Ellenr
AT&T, not da mouse.
VeniceRiley
I love Ceresi as a character, and I hope she gets a great death scene. And, perhaps kills her killer? One can only hope for something epic along the lines of what Dame Diana Rigg got, which was the best death of the entire show.
bob7094
@Tenar Arha:
If she dies in childbirth, will that not be being killed by her little brother?
Tenar Arha
@bob7094: Possible. Except the prophesy said choking?
So ?♀️ ETA who knows?
scuffletuffle
@Peter: I LOVE this ending!!!
janesays
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone: Technically, Arya already is a “highborn lady” by virtue of being the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell. But it’s an honorific she’s never wanted, even as a young child talking to Ned.
Heidi Mom
@Brachiator: It would have been awesome for Lady Olenna, as she was dying, to fade into an image of her earlier self, and let the young viewers who know her only as a wrinkled old woman see who she was when young, and when, as she once told Sansa, she was “very, very good” at using her sexual wiles to manipulate men
JR
@Brachiator:
If you want an example of irony in action, you could do worse than Robespierre.
JR
@Peter: Was it her or Jon who thought of the genius idea of sending light cavalry charging into an unbreakable line?
chaoticgnome
The prophesy of the Valonqer makes it almost guaranteed that Jamie takes out Cersei. I’m totally down for Arya and Hound teaming up to finish off the mountain.
I’ve lost all patience with the show for scenes like the surprise kill off of dragon number 2. I predicted the Night King was going to kill a dragon to prove he’s a real threat back during the last season and my friends stared at me like I was a wizard. They decided they needed another Worf effect to prove Cersei is someone to take seriously.
I am continually annoyed by the showrunners buffing Cersei. Everyone else is forced to act like morons so that she can keep winning. She has never done anything genuinely clever. She’s always leaned on Deus ex moments like Euron’s or the showrunners handing her opponents the idiot ball. This has become so egregious a lot of people have pointed out how Tyrion’s intelligence is practically an informed ability because he made dumb choices in every step if the initial fight against Cersei.
chaoticgnome
@JR: Scenes like this I de-couple from the actual characters. No one in the actual story can be blamed for this. The boneheaded sacrifice of all those Dothraki was for the purpose of the lights flickering out visual which was strictly a cinematic rather than tactical choice. It was akso a great excuse to show Ghost for 12 seconds and then have him not need to be visible again
Peter
@scuffletuffle: Right? I hope someone from HBO is reading this. I could use a gig.
@JR: Don’t get me started. If I wanted to yell at my television in impotent rage, I’d watch the news.
catclub
@R-Jud:
How do you feel about TED talks?
sherparick
I am not so sure I would have had Brienne cry, but Jamie was making a confession to Brienne after hearing how Cersei had achieved a huge victory over Daenerys by killing Rhaegel and seizing Missandei. Suddenly, he realizes that she might win. So he is going back to kill her and die with her. That he does not deserve happiness and love with Brienne, the “Beauty who has come and taken all Cersei hold dear.”
Dorothy A. Winsor
I saw someone predicting Bran ends up on the Iron Throne, which…no. That would be a bridge and half too far.
James E Powell
For me, the only remaining question of interest is who kills Cersei and how.
Suzanne
Boog (aka Spawn the Youngest) tried to make an early appearance last night, so I finished watching GoT and then headed to the hospital, got a shot of some “slow the fuck down” shit, and then came home. I have told Boog that it’s not time to arrive until after the entire series is over. Then it’ll be time to binge-watch from the beginning.
I have to say that I have been increasingly disliking Daenerys for multiple seasons now, so I don’t really get the critical argument that she being increasingly shady is a new thing that came out of nowhere and doesn’t have narrative continuity. Cersei is terrible, but I find myself rooting for her in some fucked-up fashion because she is always smarter than her enemies. That’s the problem with shows like this: the villains are often more interesting than the heroes. Jon is a total bore.
Fuck it. Arya and Sansa should get the Iron Throne. Sansa feels like the only one with any damn sense.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Suzanne: Arya can be her hand.
Rob Lll
Well, I’m just happy that Ghost made it through. Wishing him a happy retirement up north with lots of scritches behind his one remaining ear and some meaty bones to gnaw on.
LuciaMia
The fact that Jon Snow doesnt want the throne really shouldnt be a main reason why he should have it. This isnt ‘I, Claudius.’ Honestly, he can be a bit dim. But as a reviewer noted, he is a very good speaker/eulogizer. He probably would make a good ambassador for whoever ends up sitting on the Iron Throne.
germy
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@janesays – Yes true, technically Arya is Lady Arya Stark, but the expectations and responsibilities of being the Lady of, in this case Storm’s End are something she NEVER wanted and actively fought even when she lived as a Lord’s daughter. I just thought Gendry thinking she would somehow be into any of that after seeing who she is as an adult, was ridiculous.
Richard Guhl
Is GoT gonna troll us the way St. Elsewhere or Dallas did?
Brachiator
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone:
Gendry could not wrap his head around being elevated, nor did he truly comprehend who Arya was. How many people could? I don’t think he was ridiculous. And Arya’s refusal was kind and thoughtful. She may not be a “lady,” but she is nonetheless a noble, and understands that world.
PJ
@Suzanne: Jon and Dany also suffer from lead character syndrome in the books – everyone else around them is more interesting.
Jon is dour, dependable, determined to do the right thing, honest to a fault, and a little slow on the uptake, just like his role model, Ned Stark. Sansa and Arya saw where that got Ned, and chose very different paths, while Bran had a different path chosen for him. It was the right thing for Jon to let the Wildlings through the Wall, just as it was the right thing for Ned to try to spare Cersei and her children, and it got Jon killed just as much as Ned. Has he learned anything from that? He hasn’t shown that he has yet, but we have two episodes left where Jon will have to make a very hard choice.
Dany is boring because, as far as we know, her character never wanted anything for herself before the series (and the books) opened. She’s sold like a cow to Khal Drogo in exchange for the Dothraki’s services to Viserys, her brother, who is determined to conquer Westeros. That’s his dream, not Dany’s. It’s only after the attempt on her life does she take that role, first, in her mind, as wife of Drogo and the mother of the Stallion who Will Mount the World, and then for herself finally, after Drogo is burned, she lives, and her dragon eggs hatch. From then on, she is going to Take What Is Hers, and as soon as she has power, she acts like a tyrant. As the audience, we don’t see it that way, because she is killing or torturing bad guys, so we root for her, but her guiding light is her ego: She will be obeyed.
And she is not very good at governing, because that’s not foremost on her mind. She conquers two city states and leaves them to fall into chaos, or back into the hands of their old masters, before she settles in Mereen, which is itself a long pit stop on the way to Westeros. But there her most important principle is that she will be obeyed. For example, when an ex-slave kills an ex-master who (I believe) had been plotting against her, but whom she had spared, she has the ex-slave executed, because he broke the law (i.e., he disobeyed her will), which alienates her from her supporters and leads to rioting.
When she gets to Westeros, she demands that everyone bend the knee, despite the fact that there is no reason beyond force – her armies and her dragons – why anyone should agree for her to rule them; she roasts the Tarlys because they will not acknowledge her rule. So she’s always been a tyrant, and it’s only because we see her in conflict with Sansa now, and soon to be likely with Varys, Tyrion, and ultimately Jon, whom the audience is also rooting for, that people think the “mad queen” behavior is something new.
J R in WV
@Brachiator:
I’ve always stayed as updated and most recent version of everything as I can. Yet nothing I did made any difference, til this afternoon I took a nap for a couple of hours.
When I started up a couple of hours ago, suddenly the two tracking blockers/ ad blockers I have been using lately were back !!! Thank Murphy for that, the ads and bullshit were driving me mad!! Ghostery and uBlock Origin are what I have been using, and they’re back.
Worst tracker is a Facebook widgit I hate the most — I’m not a Facebook user, hate everything about it except for the people who use it and don’t use anything else… Facebook has no business tracking people who haven’t signed up and don’t visit regularly!!!
J R in WV
@prostratedragon:
As a project manager for a couple decades, I can tell everyone that there are programmers out there who will develop a piece for your project, and it takes them a week. Then they spend 3 weeks making it smaller and unintelligible for any other coder who comes along. There is code in many systems that no one alive understands at all.
The use of “obfuscated code” is always a terrible thing for a system that is intended to be active for any length of time. No one can alter such a module, no one can change it to be different after a rules or legal change. And no one can be sure there isn’t a built-in vulnerability to use to penetrate the system sometime in the future. I once fired a guy for not making his code readable by any real person, after the third warning. Plus his bits didn’t adhere to standards the rest of the system used.
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: Well said.
@PJ: Good points, but I am not giving up on Dany just yet. Tyrion said she’ll make the right decision. Of course, he said that about Cersei too. ?
Also, am I the only one who thinks Euron is getting totally played?
Robert Bowsher
@J R in WV:
I think when they’re talking about obfuscated code, they’re talking about a Java/JS/C# obfuscator, used to keep someone from using a decompiler to pull your program apart. The problem is if a hacker runs the obfuscator over malicious code, the obfuscation changes the MD5, which makes it avoid any antivirus scan that’s counting on that signature.
janesays
Fitting conclusion – Cersei dies in childbirth, giving birth to a dwarf. Perfect karma for her treatment of Tyrion.
remima
@Betty Cracker: Oh, I think Cersei is totally playing him. She’ll turn on him the second she’s done using him. I hope it’s in a way he deserves; for me he’s way up there as one of the most detestable and yet boring characters in GOT. Lord this show really plays on my worst impulses.
I hope I didn’t misunderstand you – I thought it was obvious that she’s just using him. But what do I know?
NotMax
@Suzanne
We Tauruses are pretty darn delightful.
:)
@J R in WV
The two main reasons I prefer an older iteration are that I just plain like the GUI better (tabs below the address bar, extra toolbar available for screen bottom, as examples) and there are a handful of add-ons I really like which tweak either performance or design (ability to edit context menu, ease of toggling javascript and/or images, as examples) for which there exist either no or not as encompassing post-Quantum equivalents at all.
VeniceRiley
I’m going to pretend I did not read the eps 4/5/6 spoilers I just saw. The 4 stuff was accurate. And the rest? We riot.
VeniceRiley
With this writing crew, sans GRRM’s characterizations and plotting, I predict the prequel series will suck tiny dragon balls.
Feathers
My whole timeline is aroar over Sansa’s “I’d still be a little bird” line. They are reading it as Sansa saying she was glad to have been raped and abused. Good grief!!! My (correct) reading is that the Hound accused her of causing all the trouble (“if only you’d come with me, none of this would have happened”). Clegane was, and is, respected and recognized as a one man military power. Sansa, shrewdly, sees this as a challenge to her new political power. She points out that while she made a stupid mistake then, she isn’t the sheltered, naive creature she once was, and can be trusted as a political leader in her own right.
If you survive being too stupid to live, and learn from it, things can become interesting.
Spanish Moss
I am so glad to have this thread to discuss! I seem to spend the day after an episode reading everything I can find online to get different observations and perspectives.
In the Jon/Sansa/Arya discussion in the wood, I think that Arya was suspiciously quick to say that Jon did the right thing to bend the knee to Dany. I wonder if Arya is leaving Winterfell to “take care of” Dany, to spare Jon the pain of making a tough choice. She is especially close to Jon, and I think she is sympathetic to the fact that he loves Dany. I find it hard to believe that Arya doesn’t see the threat and she generally prefers to handle things in the background. I like that she met up with the Hound and I look forward to seeing what comes next for them.
Feathers
@VeniceRiley: I love the world building in Game of Thrones. So glad I saw the huge coffee table book, The World of Ice & Fire: The Untold History of Westeros and the Game of Thrones, at the library. I couldn’t get into it at all. Ended up skimming through, trying to force down the stuff that interested me most, with the result that I felt I knew less than when I began. Ugh. The pictures were pretty, though.
Same with all Martin’s short fiction set in the GOT world. Sigh.
I think a large part of the problem with the TV show is that where Martin’s books end before Dany reaches Westeros. In the books, the Targaryans are magical, mad, and somehow otherworldly. They are not of Westeros, to the point of incestuously interbreeding to remain as Valyrian as possible. This worked onscreen when Dany was in Essos, but she has remained resolutely human upon her arrival in Westeros. Even though she has dragons, she does not seem to be the “Dragon Queen.” Some of this is Clarke’s warmth, which has served her well so far in her story. But Dany should be stranger and more powerful than Melisandre, which she certainly is not.
Also, in legend, Bran the Builder built not only The Wall, but Winterfell. Like the Wall, Winterfell was said to have magic spells interlaced in its construction. To quote Checkov, if you are going to set your story in a castle with long lost magic, there had better be some fucking magical defenses showing up when the forces of darkness show up with their army.
L85NJGT
@sherparick1:
So… seven hours produced over eighteen months, and going big with the cgi content.That was going to generate quality control issues no matter how much money they threw at it.
Kristine
@Betty Cracker:
The discussions of Dany’s mental state didn’t come as a surprise to me. Throughout the series, we heard about the insanity that ran through the Targaryen line, and that Targaryen rulers were either mad or kind/great. It’s rushed in that they’re jamming is she/isn’t she in the last three eps of the series, but the overall concept isn’t new.
L85NJGT
Going big with cgi while producing seven hours in eighteen months was bound to generate quality issues.
Kristine
@Suzanne:
Yup, I”m on Team Sansa. She knows Cersei even better than the men who should know her–Tyrion, seriously?–and she’s shown herself to be manipulative and ruthless when necessary. In my head-fic, Jon takes the Iron Throne, names her Warden of the North. They have a falling-out, Sansa marches on King’s Landing with the armies of the North, Knights of the Vale, etc, wins, and takes the throne.
Omnes Omnibus
A few observations: Jon is good at inspiring people and bringing unlikely allies; he is not a good general. Dany is good at conquering, but she appears to be a poor ruler. I still like Tyrion, but he was more interesting before he became serious. He has in his times a hand shown an interest in trying to govern well. Sansa has learned a mega shit ton through her horrific experiences. She also appears to grasp the nuts and bolts of ruling. Arya is a serious bad ass. As we near the end, I find that my two favorite characters are the Stark women. I’ve always liked Arya and, with the exceptions of Arya and Tyrion, I don’t think that the other high-born characters recognize Sansa’s real stature as a player in the GoT. Also, if I am going to be shallow and I am, I think she has become better-looking than Dany (smart is sexy).
James E Powell
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone:
There is nothing more ridiculous than a man in love.
Feathers
@James E Powell: Also, Gendry has no knowledge of what high born (or any?) women are actually like. So expecting him to understand a highly complex woman like Arya is unfair to Gendry. The way he has treated Arya throughout the show is evidence that he would be a good husband to a sensible woman. My current ship on Arya/Gendry is Arya finding a sensible, womanly widow who has survived this and sending her to Gendry with the message “Marry this one.”
Emerald
This is a long dead thread but I want to throw in my two cents just to get it recorded.
I think that the ending will be the end of dragons and perhaps of magic in Westeros. The last dragon dies while winning the final battle, but so do Dany and Jon. As the dragons go, so do the Targareons. Frankly I’m not a fan of either of them, so perhaps this is wishful thinking.
I agree that Jamie has gone back to kill Cersi. He has repented. We saw that when he apologized to Bran, and when he confessed his sins as he was leaving Ser Brienne. Jamie will of course die too. Sansa winds up on the Iron Throne, but she’ll move the capitol city to the north. She’s the only one who’s demonstrated good leadership. Her first concern was getting everyone fed before the battle. She’s the only one who thinks of the people. Ever.
Ser Brienne and Arya be part of her administration. The women win. The series has been telegraphing that for years. But I do think Tyrion sticks around as hand.
Fair Economist
My one prediction is that Arya goes Lyanna Mormont on the Mountain at halftime in Clegane Bowl.
Brachiator
A quick thought in this dead thread
@Kristine:
I like how Sansa has grown. She knows Cersei, but she does not know how to defeat her.
Theron Ware
At this point I’m not sure George R R Martin is interested in finishing the “A Song Of Ice & Fire” series. It was a great journey as far as it went though.