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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Bad news for Ron DeSantis is great news for America.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

Today’s gop: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

Fight them, without becoming them!

Republicans would impeach Biden if he bit into a whole Kit Kat rather than breaking the sections apart.

I’m sure you banged some questionable people yourself. We’re allowed to grow past that.

Never forget that he train is barreling down on Trump, even as he dances on the tracks.

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Ron DeSantis, the grand wizard, oops, governor of FL.

… gradually, and then suddenly.

The arc of the moral universe doesn’t bend itself. it’s up to us.

The new republican ‘Pastor’ of the House is an odious authoritarian little creep.

You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

Sadly, media malpractice has become standard practice.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Somebody needs to explain to DeSantis that nobody needs to do anything to make him look bad.

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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Foreign Affairs Open Thread: Which #@%^ Keeps Queuing Up ‘Moldy Oldies’ on the History Channel?!?

Foreign Affairs Open Thread: Which #@%^ Keeps Queuing Up ‘Moldy Oldies’ on the History Channel?!?

by Anne Laurie|  June 20, 20197:42 pm| 191 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Military, Open Threads, Decline and Fall, Looks Like I Picked the Wrong Week to Stop Sniffing Glue

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UPDATE: U.S. military's Central Command calls shoot-down of Navy drone 'unprovoked attack on a U.S. surveillance asset in international airspace,' statement rejects Iranian claims American drone flew over Iranian airspace

— Lucas Tomlinson (@LucasFoxNews) June 20, 2019

Is there a ‘President Eisehower face-palm’ gif out there somewhere?…

Whoa. Significant escalation. MQ-9 Reaper shootdown wasn't nothing, but that's a $15m aircraft–we've got hundreds of 'em. RQ-4 is an $130m+ aircraft–size of a civilian airliner, packed with recon sensors, a much more valuable asset. https://t.co/fzLxB1M61Y

— Rick Berger (@bergerrichard) June 20, 2019

There's no captured pilot. There's no rescue mission required. No grieving family.

It's a f***ing robot. Shooting it down is the geopolitical equivalent of someone keying your car. Let it the f*** go.

— Zeddy (@Zeddary) June 20, 2019

AP: Russian President Vladimir Putin is warning the U.S. against using force on Iran, saying it would have catastrophic consequences.

— Jesse Rodriguez (@JesseRodriguez) June 20, 2019

A rare case where Trump’s narcissism & lack of any coherent ideology, policy agenda, or world view is to our advantage. As dumb as he started out as & as addled as he is now, still a decent chance even he grasps what everyone but zealots grasp: War w Iran would be catastrophic. https://t.co/klng749ZRI

— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) June 20, 2019


Trump said it is documented that the US drone was over international waters. He added it would have made a big difference if the drone was manned.

— Kaitlan Collins (@kaitlancollins) June 20, 2019

The US claims the drone Iran shot down in the Strait of Hormuz was over international waters; Iran says the drone was flying over its territory. Here is one possible explanation for how the same fact pattern could fit both interpretations ?? https://t.co/pRUNKZfh83 pic.twitter.com/C3DXTszSyU

— Colin Kahl (@ColinKahl) June 20, 2019

Strictly in an academic sense, I am kind of impressed by the creativity. On the other hand, I’m also mindful that these sorts of assets are really expensive AND blinding an enemy is something you would also try to do before an attack. So it’s still destabilizing.

— Paul Musgrave (@profmusgrave) June 20, 2019

It’s telling that they’re acknowledging deterrence has broken down. Because I remember a time when they were claiming the opposite. https://t.co/w7VTgO6u19

— Daniel W. Drezner (@dandrezner) June 20, 2019

Lindsay Graham has never seen a war he wasn’t willing to get with. He’s the guy hanging out at bar time waiting to go home with any war who will let him. Tom Cotton is his equally drunk wingman.

— Mustafa Redonkulous (@mredonkulous) June 20, 2019

There. Is. Always. A. Tweet. https://t.co/loRQKIixmh

— Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) June 20, 2019

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Reader Interactions

191Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 7:53 pm

    I hate that both us and them suck.

  2. 2.

    japa21

    June 20, 2019 at 7:55 pm

    Trump is wrong. This was not an accident. It was, IMO, a warning shot to display capabilities. At the same time, US very well knows that Iran views that as over its territory. We, meaning some in the administration, are begging Iran to do something that will cause even Trump to want to do something. Fo0rtunately, I think the leaders of Iran are much smarter than what is currently in charge of our country.

  3. 3.

    A Ghost To Most

    June 20, 2019 at 7:58 pm

    So, who do we believe when both sides are lying?

  4. 4.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 7:58 pm

    He added it would have made a big difference if the drone was manned.

    Maybe we can send Bolton up on the next flight. Win-win.

  5. 5.

    MazeDancer

    June 20, 2019 at 7:59 pm

    Soonergrunt responded to Zeddy

    Don’t entirely agree, but this wasn’t even an RQ-4. It was an old block 10 that had been converted to a testbed for the Navy version of the RQ-4, the MQ-4.
    This was an obsolete semi-functional unit sent to the region last week
    Almost like a target

    .

  6. 6.

    Steve in the ATL

    June 20, 2019 at 8:00 pm

    @japa21:

    Trump is wrong

    Well duh

  7. 7.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 8:04 pm

    He says it could have been somebody who was “loose and stupid.”

    “Like me”

  8. 8.

    Ohio Mom

    June 20, 2019 at 8:09 pm

    The only nice thing anyone can say about Trump is that he hasn’t (yet) gotten us into any military adventures. I always assume that’s behind Atrios’s contention that W remains a worse president than Trump (I don’t think I agree with this assessment but I can see the logic).

  9. 9.

    Jeffro

    June 20, 2019 at 8:11 pm

    Important thing to remember here is that trumpov doesn’t wanna get on Putin’s bad side…I see the US standing down in 3, 2, 1…

  10. 10.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 8:13 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    It’s a stupid debate.

  11. 11.

    japa21

    June 20, 2019 at 8:13 pm

    @MazeDancer: I don’t know if soonergrunt is right or not. But definitely would agree that this was set up to be a target the Iranians couldn’t resist. Which makes me believe, as I said before, that the US knew this was in what Iran considers its air space and therefore a legitimate target.

  12. 12.

    Sab

    June 20, 2019 at 8:14 pm

    So I was driving home from the grocery this afternoon, listening to NPR ( I really should stop doing that) and I heard Mary Louise Kelly (or whateverher name is) solemnly intone ( whilst questionning) that “now that Iran has shot down a US aircraft…”

    Iran possibly shot down a drone. Totally unmanned. Everyone who has ever been at an upscale wedding has wanted to shoot down the photographers drone.

    I screamed at my radio “It’s a drone, you phucking moron!”

    I am done with NPR pledging. I like our local station and their news, but they keep bringing this national dreck to our kids. I will miss them when they are gone, but I will not miss Mary Louise Kelly (or Kelley) or Steve Inskeep who admires Andrew Jackson.

    W done good on destroying our civic institutions.

    So our media wants us to go to war over this? (the drone mary louise was so outraged about.)

  13. 13.

    Ohio Mom

    June 20, 2019 at 8:22 pm

    @Baud: Yeah, they are both awful in their own unique ways.

    But it remains true that I appreciate that the one awful thing Trump hasn’t done yet is a war. I won’t be surprised if he does though.

  14. 14.

    TenguPhule

    June 20, 2019 at 8:23 pm

    Trump does not want conflict. Pompeo, Pence, Esper are “swing votes.”

    This is insider baseball horseshit. Trust no one.

  15. 15.

    Kent

    June 20, 2019 at 8:23 pm

    You KNOW that both the US and Iranians could provide high-resolution tracking data for this drone overlaid on top of a map of international boundary lines. I’m sure the Iranians had it on their radar. And I guarantee that the US military has high resolution milisecond by milisecond tracking data showing the EXACT path of this drone up to the point that it disappeared.

    The fact that we aren’t seeing this suggests that someone is not telling the whole truth.

  16. 16.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    June 20, 2019 at 8:24 pm

    He added it would have made a big difference if the drone was manned.

    how is it we don’t hear the usual suspects moan and groan about drooooooonze anymore? How is they stopped caring once Dump entered office?

    On a bigger point: the usual suspects used to argue drone use makes it easier to go to war because it eliminated the risk of losing pilots. But Dump has stumbled on to a reality: using drones makes it harder to go to war because no one cares if you lose a flying computer.

  17. 17.

    Gravenstone

    June 20, 2019 at 8:24 pm

    @japa21: Well, when punching holes in tankers isn’t sufficient to get their casus belli, they have to turn it up a notch.

  18. 18.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 8:25 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Agreed. My one wish after the election was always that we get through without dropping a nuclear bomb on anyone.

  19. 19.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 8:27 pm

    @Kent:

    Hell, my cell phone takes a better video than the one we saw of the Iranian boat next to the tanker.

  20. 20.

    MazeDancer

    June 20, 2019 at 8:27 pm

    @japa21:

    So, Iran and Bolton both knew it was a target. Guess Iran had to swat it.

    Please may Trump know that going to war with Iran is not a popular move.

  21. 21.

    TenguPhule

    June 20, 2019 at 8:27 pm

    @A Ghost To Most:

    So, who do we believe when both sides are lying?

    Why would Iran lie?

  22. 22.

    Kent

    June 20, 2019 at 8:27 pm

    @Kent: OK, update to my own post. I see that the Pentagon has now released flight data, assuming it is legit: https://www.ajc.com/news/national/drone-shot-down-revolutionary-guard-according-iran-state-news-agency/1cRzpIWG2NJbSkZGSwF7EK/

  23. 23.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    June 20, 2019 at 8:28 pm

    @Kent: If you look at Colin Kahl’s tweet, both Iran and the US could be telling the truth based on differing definitions of what constitutes Iranian waters.

  24. 24.

    TenguPhule

    June 20, 2019 at 8:29 pm

    @Baud:

    My one wish after the election was always that we get through without dropping a nuclear bomb on anyone.

    Did you see the Pentagon’s exciting new ideas about using nuclear weapons on the battlefield yesterday?

  25. 25.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 8:31 pm

    @TenguPhule:

    Iranians have domestic politics too.

    @TenguPhule:

    No. Sounds dumb.

  26. 26.

    SiubhanDuinne

    June 20, 2019 at 8:32 pm

    @Baud:

    I hate that both us and them suck.

    My inner Grammar Nazi showed up to say “It should be:‘both we and they suck.’ “

    I looked my Grammar Nazi right in the eye and said “Fuck off and die in a fire. It’s perfect just as is.”

  27. 27.

    Kent

    June 20, 2019 at 8:34 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Yes. Althought Iran’s claims are not recognized internationally.

    This might very well be a case of the US asserting the right of passage through disputed territory like the Navy does around the islands built by China in the south China sea. In other words, both sides knowing exactly what the other way doing.

  28. 28.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 8:35 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    No appeasement when it comes to Nazis.

  29. 29.

    Martin

    June 20, 2019 at 8:36 pm

    This is my concern about military drones. Because they are unmanned, the marginal cost of using them is extremely low, which means we’ll use them in situations we wouldn’t have used a manned aircraft. We’ll use them to attack targets we previously would have demurred on, we’ll use them to instigate actions we previously wouldn’t have risked.

    $300 million? Eh. The primary mission of the DOD is to hand money to their contractors. And since we’re retiring various models of RQ-4, it may not have had any value anyway.

  30. 30.

    Wakeshift

    June 20, 2019 at 8:38 pm

    As always, thank you for this.
    Among the many (well, several…) reasons I come to Balloon Juice is so I never have to go on twitter.
    The curated selections are coherent, informative, and interesting.

    As to the topic, this probably an inappropriate metaphor but it seems a bit like Bolton’s (or whoever) strategy here is
    “Wear a really skimpy outfit, so the IRGC (or whoever) will take advantage and then defend the assault by saying she (he?) was clearly asking for it”

  31. 31.

    japa21

    June 20, 2019 at 8:38 pm

    @MazeDancer: Yep, Iran had to swat it. They really had no choice.

  32. 32.

    rikyrah

    June 20, 2019 at 8:38 pm

    Media Alert

    AFI Tribute to Denzel Washington is on TNT tonight, beginning at 10 p.m. EST.

  33. 33.

    Jeffro

    June 20, 2019 at 8:40 pm

    Stop parsing this whole thing…”the US was 100 yards over the line”…”depends upon whose definition of international waters we’re using”…its crap.

    Big picture? We got out of the JCPOA ’cause trumpov wants to undo everything Obama ever did no matter how sensible, his advisers are war-mad loons, and even our allies can’t take our government’s word on what happened (either with the tankers or the drone).

    Any other reality and 99% of the US would be ready to kick an uninformed, reactionary, alienating, shitty manager to the curb. So let’s not get too caught up in the specifics of the drone or the use of drones or whether or not we should cut Iran a break of some kind to avoid war.

    The big picture is, the Orange Moron led/tweeted/hired us to this point, and we shouldn’t have to accept it a day longer.

  34. 34.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 8:41 pm

    @Martin:

    The drone debate will always be tainted by being hijacked by awful people.

  35. 35.

    Steve in the ATL

    June 20, 2019 at 8:41 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:I have a similar dispute with my wife about the exact borders of her side of the bed versus mine. Of course, there is 100 pounds of golden retriever who ignores both our claims.

  36. 36.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    June 20, 2019 at 8:43 pm

    @Steve in the ATL: The obvious solution is for you to sleep on the couch.

  37. 37.

    Jeffro

    June 20, 2019 at 8:43 pm

    “Did Iran lie?”

    “Did we?”

    “Was the drone in international waters?”

    “What about Iran’s internal politics?”

    “You have to wonder who provoked who…”

    Who cares? The important thing is that we wouldn’t be at this point if it weren’t for trumpov’s hard-on to undo everything Obama ever did, if he didn’t suck so bad at hiring, if he wasn’t such a moron, and if he and his advisers weren’t so bad at the basics of international diplomacy AND national defense.

  38. 38.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 8:46 pm

    I’d feel a lot better if I was sure he understands that drones are always unmanned.

    Trump said it is documented that the US drone was over international waters. He added it would have made a big difference if the drone was manned.

    — Kaitlan Collins (@kaitlancollins) June 20, 2019

  39. 39.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 8:48 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Heh.

  40. 40.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 8:48 pm

    OT, in case any might have concluded my occasional gripe about THE HEAT was just the belt onions talking.

    On Monday, another record high temperature was set at Kahului Airport — 94 degrees. The old record was 93 degrees set in 1953, according to the National Weather Service.

    Since May 16, Maui has seen 18 record-setting or -tying high temperature days. The highest so far was 96 degrees on May 26 at the Kahului Airport, where the National Weather Service temperature sensors are located.

    Weather service meteorologist Melissa Dye said sensors at Kahului Airport were inspected last week because of the number of records. There were no abnormalities but the sensors were replaced anyway. Source

    On the plus side, at least it’s not Kuwait, from which there’s been report of reaching 63°C (145°F).

  41. 41.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 8:49 pm

    @TenguPhule: It also isn’t the Supreme Court.

  42. 42.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 8:51 pm

    @Kent: The Iranian civilian government that runs in the foreground, as the opaque theocracy runs in the background, is fervently trying to get their information out. Not that it doesn’t need to be verified, it does, but it lifts a bit of the veil.

    #Iran DepFM Araghchi has said that Iran is not after a war & conflict in Pereian Gulf, while warning against any unwise act of #American forces in the region, and saying that Iran will act decisively & with no hesitation, in defending itself.

    — Abas Aslani (@AbasAslani) June 20, 2019

    Swiss ambassador to Tehran was also asked to go to Iranian Foreign Ministry tomorrow on Friday morning to have more details on the incident. The ambassador said that he would transfer the points to the US administration.#Iran

    — Abas Aslani (@AbasAslani) June 20, 2019

  43. 43.

    Wakeshift

    June 20, 2019 at 8:51 pm

    @Jeffro:

    This is exactly right.
    Until we amputate the malignant Republican cancer and stitch our bleeding, infected democracy back together, these individual scratches and bruises are meaningless.

    Triage rules in effect:
    Are we red tag, or black?

  44. 44.

    TenguPhule

    June 20, 2019 at 8:52 pm

    @Baud:

    No. Sounds dumb.

    Someone at the Defense Department apparently watched Doctor Strangelove and thought “I can certainly do a better job of this.”

  45. 45.

    TenguPhule

    June 20, 2019 at 8:53 pm

    @Wakeshift:

    Are we red tag, or black?

    Black.

  46. 46.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 8:53 pm

    @MazeDancer: @japa21: Here’s the video Iran has released so far: ETA: the drone footage at the beginning of the second video is stock video, not the footage of what was actually shot down.

    Iran releases alleged video of shooting down of US UAV. pic.twitter.com/DokjGC8dB1

    — F. Jeffery (@Natsecjeff) June 20, 2019

    A second alleged video of Iran shooting down US UAV has appeared. pic.twitter.com/BcbtnwFu7k

    — F. Jeffery (@Natsecjeff) June 20, 2019

  47. 47.

    Gvg

    June 20, 2019 at 8:54 pm

    I have been surprised Trump hasn’t lead us into a war yet. He seems to love the talk and the uniforms. I wonder if he dimly realizes War is a lot of work and people will really yell at him every time they think he makes a mistake, which will be all the time. He wants a parade, he loves to talk but we aren’t in a war yet.
    If he did start one, he and his goons would be so incompetent that even his base would turn on him.
    Maybe somebody is actually telling him war doesn’t poll well right now.

  48. 48.

    TenguPhule

    June 20, 2019 at 8:55 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I’d feel a lot better if I was sure he understands that drones are always unmanned.

    I’d feel a lot better if I was sure the Defense Department wouldn’t be stupid enough to try manning them because Trump thinks it sounds cool.

  49. 49.

    Jeffro

    June 20, 2019 at 8:56 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Iranians: “These guys run their shit all OVER our airspace daily and twice on Sundays! The drone got hit by a frickin’ goose! You gotta be kidding me, we thought we had more wiggle room than this!”

    Bolton: “Typical!” (pushes red button)

    Again, big picture, what does it say when the Iranians can go to the international community and even have a prayer of success with, “You’ve gotta talk to these Americans, they’re NUTS!”?

    I suspect this nuance will be lost on GOP voters, particularly if even one hinky email of Liz’s or Kamala’s can be produced just before the election

  50. 50.

    TenguPhule

    June 20, 2019 at 8:56 pm

    @NotMax: To be fair, all that concrete makes the heat worse then usual.

  51. 51.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 8:57 pm

    @MazeDancer: Can you post the link to Sooner’s tweet? I can’t see it/find it on his timeline.

  52. 52.

    TenguPhule

    June 20, 2019 at 8:58 pm

    @Gvg:

    If he did start one, he and his goons would be so incompetent that even his base would turn on him.

    Sorry, no. They will blame President Obama. And then Hillary Clinton.

  53. 53.

    TenguPhule

    June 20, 2019 at 8:58 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    The obvious solution is for you to sleep on the couch.

    I thought that would have already been effect once the marriage was in effect. //s

  54. 54.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 9:00 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    alleged video
    Sheesh. It is either a video or it isn’t.

    Sloppy and innately inaccurate construction when what’s intended is “A video allegedly showing,” F. Jeffery.

  55. 55.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 9:01 pm

    Format fix.
    @Adam L. Silverman

    alleged video

    Sheesh. It is either a video or it isn’t.

    Sloppy and innately inaccurate construction when what’s intended is “A video allegedly showing,” F. Jeffery.

  56. 56.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:01 pm

    @Kent: Here’s what the Pentagon is putting out:

    More from the Pentagon on the $130 million drone Iran shot down last night:

    DOD: "Attached is the ISR flight path and grid plot for the RQ-4A shot down by Iran in the Strait of Hormuz."

    Apparent takeaway: The aircraft *was not* in Iranian airspace/territory when shot down. pic.twitter.com/bvIz6UNGWp

    — Ben Watson (@natsecwatson) June 20, 2019

    And here’s what Iran’s foreign minister is putting out:

    At 00:14 US drone took off from UAE in stealth mode & violated Iranian airspace. It was targeted at 04:05 at the coordinates (25°59'43"N 57°02'25"E) near Kouh-e Mobarak.

    We've retrieved sections of the US military drone in OUR territorial waters where it was shot down. pic.twitter.com/pJ34Tysmsg

    — Javad Zarif (@JZarif) June 20, 2019

    And at the end of this video put out by the Iranians, there is animation showing where the Iranians claim the drone was when they took it down:

    Iran releases alleged video of shooting down of US UAV. pic.twitter.com/DokjGC8dB1

    — F. Jeffery (@Natsecjeff) June 20, 2019

  57. 57.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 9:04 pm

    A blast from the past:

    The government of Iran announced that the aircraft was brought down by its cyber warfare unit stationed near Kashmar[4][5][6][7] and “brought down with minimum damage”[8] They said the aircraft was detected in Iranian airspace 225 kilometers (140 mi) from the border with Afghanistan.[9]

    The government of the United States initially claimed that its forces in Afghanistan had lost control of a UAV on 4 December 2011 and that there was a possibility that this is the vehicle that crashed near Kashmar. According to unnamed U.S. officials, a U.S. UAV operated by the Central Intelligence Agency was flying on the Afghan side of the Afghanistan–Iran border when its operators lost control of the vehicle.[10][11] There have been reports that “foreign officials and American experts who have been briefed on the effort” state that the crashed UAV was taking part in routine surveillance of Iranian nuclear facilities inside Iranian airspace.[12

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–U.S._RQ-170_incident

    Back in the day,……

    Iran: we captured a US stealth drone 140 miles, ( 220 km) inside Iran.

    US: No they didn’t, wasn’t ours.

    Iran: photo’s,

    US: Okay, it’s our’s but it wasn’t inside Iran.

    Iran: photo of drone at airbase, map dot of airbase.

    US: It got lost on it’s own. it was shot down over Afghanistan.

    Iran: release of decrypted drone footage showing it coming in for a landing at their airbase.

    US:………………………………………….

  58. 58.

    A Ghost To Most

    June 20, 2019 at 9:04 pm

    @NotMax: It was a gorgeous, dry, breezy 81 here today at the base of the Rockies. Different strokes.

  59. 59.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:05 pm

    @Kent: Kouh-e Mobarak, which is where Iran’s Foreign Minister claims the drone was near when they brought it down, has a number of Iranian military bases.

  60. 60.

    Roger Moore

    June 20, 2019 at 9:06 pm

    @Martin:

    Because they are unmanned, the marginal cost of using them is extremely low

    I don’t think that necessarily follows, for two reasons:

    1) Our current generation of drones are remotely operated. Just because the pilot is not on the drone doesn’t mean there isn’t a pilot; it just means he’s on the ground rather than in the air. This is likely to remain true for the foreseeable future.

    2) The pilot is only a small part of the cost of flying. Things like maintenance and fuel are very expensive, and munitions (for armed drones) are far more expensive still.

  61. 61.

    Another Scott

    June 20, 2019 at 9:07 pm

    The image in this tweet supposedly gives the flight path and Iran’s claimed airspace boundary.

    https://twitter.com/JZarif/status/1141772824086028288

    (Zarif is the Iranian foreign minister)

    (via alJazeera’s web site)

    [eta:] I see Adam has already posted this at #56.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  62. 62.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:08 pm

    @Baud:

    The drone debate will always be tainted by being hijacked by awful people.

    I say we make a targeting list and have the drones take them out.//

  63. 63.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 9:09 pm

    @Roger Moore

    Cannot speak to this case but aren’t the majority of the military drones remotely operated from Nevada? Or is that just Army drones?

  64. 64.

    Aleta

    June 20, 2019 at 9:10 pm

    Seems like Biden was idiotically attempting trying to fit Eastland into an idiotic context for this story that was coming out.
    WaPo: Letters emerge related to past work with segregationist senator
    A young Sen. Joe Biden tried to work on antibusing legislation in the 1970s with then-Sen. James O. Eastland, who called blacks “an inferior race.”

    Joe Biden’s letters to segregationist Sen. James O. Eastland

  65. 65.

    Mike in NC

    June 20, 2019 at 9:11 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: He still thinks we’re selling a fleet of F-52s to the Saudis.

  66. 66.

    Steve in the ATL

    June 20, 2019 at 9:14 pm

    @NotMax: “alleged” is clearly modifying the phrase “video of shooting down of US UAV”, not simply the word “video”

  67. 67.

    John Revolta

    June 20, 2019 at 9:17 pm

    If only there was some kind of, I dunno, international body where countries could go and sort out such things as border disputes! Although I guess that would involve getting the various countries to admit that they’re not the boss of the whole goddamn planet. Oh, well.

  68. 68.

    SiubhanDuinne

    June 20, 2019 at 9:19 pm

    @Steve in the ATL:

    Golden retriever takes its half of the bed in the middle? I’ve had more than a few cats like that.

  69. 69.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 9:19 pm

    Speaking of TV, Outback Truckers is quite good. Good situational drama just from the job itself. No bullshit drama like people talking shit behind each others’ backs or flipping tables and calling each other whores.

  70. 70.

    Mike in NC

    June 20, 2019 at 9:19 pm

    @John Revolta: Remember that Bolton hated his time at the UN. Wanted parts of the building leveled.

  71. 71.

    Raven

    June 20, 2019 at 9:19 pm

    @NotMax:

    n 2012, the USAF trained more UAV pilots than ordinary jet fighter pilots for the first time.[22] Unlike other UAVs, the Predator was armed with Hellfire missiles so that it can terminate the target that it locates.[23] This was done after Predators sighted Osama Bin Laden multiple times but could not do anything about it other than send back images. In addition, the Predator is capable of orchestrating attacks by pointing lasers at the targets.[24] This is important, as it puts a robot in a position to set off an attack. Their overall success is apparent because from June 2005 to June 2006 alone, Predators carried out 2,073 missions and participated in 242 separate raids.[25]

    In contrast to the Predator, which is remotely piloted via satellites, the Global Hawk operates virtually autonomously.[26] The user merely hits the button for ‘take off’ and for ‘land’, while the UAV gets directions via GPS and reports back with a live feed. Global Hawks have the capability to fly from San Francisco and map out the entire state of Maine before having to return.[26] In addition, some UAVs have become so small that they can be launched from one’s hand and maneuvered through the street.[26] These UAVs, known as Ravens, are especially useful in urban areas, such as Iraq, in order to discover insurgents and potential ambushes the next block up.[27] UAVs are especially useful because they can fly for days at a time. Insurgents in the open for more than a few minutes at a time fear UAVs locating them.[23]

    In the U.S., thousands of civilian UAV operators work for contractors, piloting and maintaining UAVs.[28] Up to four UAVs and about 400 to 500 pilot and ground support personnel are required for a single 24-hour-coverage combat air patrol (CAP).[29] A 2011 study by the Air Force School of Aerospace Medicine indicated that nearly 50% of spy UAV operators suffer from high stress.[28] The president of a civilian UAV operators’ union, the Association of Unmanned Operation (AUO), cited long working hours and decreasing wages as U.S. involvement in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was reduced and as a result of the U.S. government’s budget sequestration.[28]

    Given the increasing military use of cyber attacks against Microsoft software, the United States Armed Forces have moved towards Linux ground control software.[30][31]

  72. 72.

    Martin

    June 20, 2019 at 9:19 pm

    @Mike in NC: Steam powered F-52s. Beautiful, powerful steam.

  73. 73.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:19 pm

    @Jeffro: As someone around here may have mentioned once or twice: we are off the looking glass and through the map.

  74. 74.

    Kent

    June 20, 2019 at 9:20 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Feverishly TRYING to get information out? This is 2019. They can post anything they want to on any of 100 different web sites or twitter and people will start linking to it.

  75. 75.

    SiubhanDuinne

    June 20, 2019 at 9:21 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I’d feel a lot better if I was sure he understands that drones are always unmanned.

    Thanks. That bothered me too.

    But then pretty much everyfuckingthing that come out of his mouth, or his thumbs, bothers me.

  76. 76.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 9:22 pm

    @Steve in the ATL

    Nope. If it were clear, would never have brought it up.

    “Alleged video of Dolt 45’s Moscow golden shower adventure” would be a proper usage, as there is no proof of existence of a video.

  77. 77.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:23 pm

    @NotMax: You are correct, Nevada it is.

  78. 78.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:24 pm

    @Mike in NC: I thought that was Ford F250s.

  79. 79.

    Martin

    June 20, 2019 at 9:25 pm

    @Roger Moore: I think you misunderstand. The cost isn’t the salary of the pilot. The cost is the death of the pilot, in realpolitik terms. Iran is more enabled to shoot down a drone, and we are more enabled to set up that drone to be shot down if both parties know that video of a US body being fished out of the ocean isn’t part of the calculation.

    The pilot of that drone still got to go home to his wife and kids in Las Vegas today.

  80. 80.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:26 pm

    @Kent: Yes, but… In this case it is getting their official information about where they claim the drone was when it was shot down to the US. Since we don’t have diplomatic relations with Iran, this has to be run through the Swiss who act as the intermediary.

  81. 81.

    Kent

    June 20, 2019 at 9:27 pm

    I’m willing to believe anything by any of these actors. We are definitely off the looking glass and through the map as Adam puts it.

    But good god, was that Iranian map of the incident hand-drawn on a napkin with sharpie? My 13 year old makes better maps than that when she does a school project.

  82. 82.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 9:28 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    As someone around here may have mentioned once or twice: we are off the looking glass and through the map.

    I want to know where this massive stockpile of looking glasses and maps came from. We’re going through a metric shitton of maps lately.

  83. 83.

    MazeDancer

    June 20, 2019 at 9:28 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Hope this link works to get to Soonergrunt tweet: https://twitter.com/soonergrunt/status/1141725514685485056?s=21

    If not, click on Zeddy tweet to go to Twitter. Soonergrunt will be first response.

  84. 84.

    Steve in the ATL

    June 20, 2019 at 9:29 pm

    @NotMax: just because it’s not clear to you doesn’t mean it’s not clear.

    Zing!

  85. 85.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 9:31 pm

    @Steve in the ATL

    Allegedly.

    :)

  86. 86.

    Martin

    June 20, 2019 at 9:31 pm

    Just learned that the pee tape made an appearance in the Hope Hicks testimony.

  87. 87.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 9:31 pm

    @Kent:

    was that Iranian map of the incident hand-drawn on a napkin with sharpie?

    It was drawn up by the GOP like the tax scam bill.

  88. 88.

    germy

    June 20, 2019 at 9:32 pm

    Surely trump won’t rush into war with Iran if Vlad says it’s a bad idea?

    Must be incredibly frustrating for Bolton.

  89. 89.

    Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]

    June 20, 2019 at 9:34 pm

    My personal, completely non-researched feelings on what went down in this incident falls into two not entirely separable scenarios: intentional, and stupid. The intentional is the classic bully “but I’m not touching you” scenario. Fly JUUST over the line to see if Iran will let it slide, and if they do, fly further over the line. Or, if the Iranians shoot it down, we have the current posturing of the US. Or the Iranians decided to pick off a drone JUUST on the other side of the line to point out that fuckery can go in both directions.

    The stupid scenario is that either the low level Iranian Anti-air officer or the US drone flyer fucked up (in reading the radar plot or plotting the course), and is getting yelled at, a lot, behind closed doors right now, and has been getting yelled at since the incident happened.

    How much of one or another? No idea. I’m reminded of the top gun quote “This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we will be lucky to live through it”. I do know that our administration is looking for the “short victorious war” that will fix their political problems. Personally, if I was president, anyone who said that to me would be immediately sacked.

  90. 90.

    J R in WV

    June 20, 2019 at 9:35 pm

    War by Twit — how appropriate for Trump’s administration and military!

    No one left who knows what war really is, how hard we should work to avoid it. I never saw warfare while I served on the gulf coast, except in training.

    Horror.

    Do Not Do This!!!

  91. 91.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 9:35 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I’d feel a lot better if I was sure he understands that drones are always unmanned.

    SPOILER!: He doesn’t understand.

  92. 92.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:35 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: Classified.

  93. 93.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 9:37 pm

    DUCKS! There are ducks on the field at Wrigley.

  94. 94.

    germy

    June 20, 2019 at 9:38 pm

    Maybe he’ll start a war to distract us from Felix the Cat Sater’s testimony.

  95. 95.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 9:39 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Well played, sir. Well played.

  96. 96.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 9:40 pm

    @germy: Don’t you be knocking Felix the Cat’s good name.

  97. 97.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    June 20, 2019 at 9:40 pm

    @Kent:

    But good god, was that Iranian map of the incident hand-drawn on a napkin with sharpie?

    It’s the result of Trump’s sanctions.

  98. 98.

    germy

    June 20, 2019 at 9:42 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: I was a big Felix fan in my childhood. Sater has promised to answer all questions. I hope a war with Iran isn’t in trump’s bag of tricks.

  99. 99.

    germy

    June 20, 2019 at 9:43 pm

    But good god, was that Iranian map of the incident hand-drawn on a napkin with sharpie?

    Supply-side economics was birthed in the same manner.

  100. 100.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:44 pm

    @MazeDancer: Thanks, here’s the relevant info he was referring to:
    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28613/everything-we-know-about-irans-claim-that-it-shot-down-a-u-s-rq-4-global-hawk-drone

    UPDATE: 1:37am PDT—

    Our friend @Aircraftspots has done some awesome work tracking potentially the aircraft in question that would have arrived just five days ago in the Middle East.

    JUN 15: US Navy MQ-4C 166510 TRITON2 departed NAS Pax River at approx 0340Z for Al Dhafra Airbase, Qatar. pic.twitter.com/6Xu21joejg

    — Aircraft Spots (@AircraftSpots) June 20, 2019

    There is a discrepancy with the serial number and identity of this aircraft. It does not belong to an MQ-4C, it belongs to a BAMS-D demonstrator that we mentioned in the article above. And flying it from NAS Pax River makes perfect sense as that is where they live. The only operational MQ-4C squadron is located at NAS Point Mugu on the other side of the country.

    So, it looks like DoD officials are likely confused and what was probably lost was a BAMS-D. These airframes were recycled from early Block 10 RQ-4A Global Hawks that the USAF no longer wanted and used for experimental testing and proof of concept work during development for what would become the MQ-4C Triton.

    You can see the exact aircraft in question here, also it is featured in the text above when we talk about BAMS-D.

    Update: 4:28am PDT—

    We have official confirmation, as we exclusively stated, it was a BAMS-D.

    Finally, CENTCOM clarifies, saying the drone was a Global Hawk used by the US Navy, and saying the downing was an "unprovoked attack on a US surveillance asset in international airspace." pic.twitter.com/5ud3luq0vo

    — Joanne Stocker جوآن (@joanne_stocker) June 20, 2019

    UPDATE: 5:22am PDT—

    Keep in mind, BAMS-D, like the Global Hawk and the MQ-4C to a degree, has a zero penetration mission. It doesn’t fly into contested airspace. It is literally a sitting duck. The only reason it would do so would be if it was off the leash or there was a major navigational malfunction. It is far more likely Iran just shot it out of international airspace as the Pentagon states.

  101. 101.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 9:44 pm

    @mrmoshpotato

    Military storehouse crammed with now surplus AAA Trip Tiks.

    ;)

  102. 102.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 9:45 pm

    @germy: I meant it light-heartedly. Didn’t come across. Sorry bout that.

  103. 103.

    Mike in DC

    June 20, 2019 at 9:45 pm

    @Aleta: He’s f**ked. One week before the debates? He’s in the same one with Sen. Harris? Super-f**ked. Even Cacti has got to be face-palming over this one.

  104. 104.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 9:46 pm

    @NotMax: And the looking glasses, matey?

  105. 105.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 9:47 pm

    @John Revolta:

    There is, since the overthrow of the Shah, Iran has used it to resolve border disputes with it’s neighbors.

    The US however, is not a neighbor to Iran, nore does it have any boders with Iran. The US also refuses to recognize the Iranian Borders, the ADSZ, or the EEZ, that most of Iran’s neighbors do.

  106. 106.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:47 pm

    @Martin: For something that never happened and couldn’t be real, they were certainly far more concerned with tracking it down and snagging it then you’d otherwise expect.

  107. 107.

    J R in WV

    June 20, 2019 at 9:47 pm

    And here’s a question, how far was this event from Iranian dirt? Another… How far was this from USA dirt? I’m guessing 20 miles from Iran, 20,000 miles from DC. Guam is closer, US military, maybe 4,000 (guessing, Google maps and MapQuest can’t do milages across the water like this) to the scene of this event.

    Here’s a great reply to the DoD post about the location of the shoot down:

    @natsecwatson
    4h4 hours ago

    More from the Pentagon on the $130 million drone Iran shot down last night:

    DOD: “Attached is the ISR flight path and grid plot for the RQ-4A shot down by Iran in the Strait of Hormuz.”

    Apparent takeaway: The aircraft *was not* in Iranian airspace/territory when shot down.
    ==================================================================
    Replying to @natsecwatson

    You mean like the intelligence corroborating the existence of WMD in Iraq
    0 replies 0 retweets 1 like

    Pretty good and on point~!!~

  108. 108.

    germy

    June 20, 2019 at 9:47 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: No offense taken.

  109. 109.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    June 20, 2019 at 9:48 pm

    @NotMax: It’s your job to explain to the kids that those were.

  110. 110.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:49 pm

    @mrmoshpotato: What did TaMara know and when did she know it?

  111. 111.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 9:49 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Global Hawks that the USAF no longer wanted

    So operationally deemed expendable? That adds another wrinkle.

  112. 112.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:51 pm

    @germy: It’s going to be behind closed doors. No one will read the transcript. No need to distract from anything.

  113. 113.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 9:51 pm

    @mrmoshpotato

    The other warehouse, where the View-Masters are kept, silly.

    ;)

  114. 114.

    MomSense

    June 20, 2019 at 9:52 pm

    I don’t care about the stupid drone. The US is going to keep sending drones, planes, ships, jet skis, paddle boards, kayaks, para gliders, paper airplanes and anything else they can think of closer and closer and closer to Iran hoping they will take more “unprovoked” actions.

  115. 115.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 9:53 pm

    @NotMax: And, apparently, being run from NAS Pax, not an Air Force Base in Nevada.

  116. 116.

    guachi

    June 20, 2019 at 9:54 pm

    Things I won’t miss in the Navy – having my work schedule jacked around by incidents like this.

  117. 117.

    germy

    June 20, 2019 at 9:57 pm

    Asked what he'll do differently now versus his 2017 Senate bid, Roy Moore says: "I would like to make more personal contact with people."— Sahil Kapur (@sahilkapur) June 20, 2019

  118. 118.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 9:57 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    As Alice might say, suspiciouser and suspiciouser.

  119. 119.

    rikyrah

    June 20, 2019 at 9:58 pm

    @mrmoshpotato:
    ducks???

  120. 120.

    germy

    June 20, 2019 at 9:59 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: The Hope Hicks transcript is the sound of one hand clapping.

    They should have interviewed Harpo Marx. Or Gary Cooper.

  121. 121.

    PeakVT

    June 20, 2019 at 9:59 pm

    So, so glad we’re being distracted by this warmongering from unimportant things, like kids in concentration camps.

  122. 122.

    Brachiator

    June 20, 2019 at 9:59 pm

    @MomSense:

    I don’t care about the stupid drone. The US is going to keep sending drones, planes, ships, jet skis, paddle boards, kayaks, para gliders, paper airplanes and anything else they can think of closer and closer and closer to Iran hoping they will take more “unprovoked” actions.

    This would make a better cartoon than international incident.

  123. 123.

    MomSense

    June 20, 2019 at 10:01 pm

    I haven’t forgotten Tom Cotton and 46 other GOP Senators wrote that letter threatening that even if the US did enter into a deal a future president could rescind it. The Republicans will never stop screwing with Iran. And they are so arrogant. Look at how disastrous the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have been and now we think we can take on Iran? It’s insanity.

  124. 124.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 10:01 pm

    Overheard in the Pentagon: “I picked the wrong week to accept becoming Acting Secretary.” //

  125. 125.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 10:02 pm

    @NotMax: LOL I should’ve known that.

  126. 126.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 20, 2019 at 10:05 pm

    @rikyrah: Yes. On the field.

  127. 127.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 10:07 pm

    @MomSense:

    “Look at how disastrous the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have been are, and Yemen, Syria, Lybia, Mali, Nigeria, Yemen, Somalia, etc,

    None of those wars are over, nor has US involvement ended.

  128. 128.

    MomSense

    June 20, 2019 at 10:11 pm

    @Brachiator:

    The stupid map they produced looked like something from Bugs Bunny. And now we all have to take their idiocy seriously because they just might start a fucking war over a drone that they flew right to the line. My sister used to torture me with that game on long car trips. She’d poke my leg and then I’d tell her to stop and then she’d keep doing it and finally my mom would tell her to stop. Then she would put her hand on the seat next to my leg as close as it could possibly be without touching it just to annoy me so bad that I wanted to hit her. And she knew she was aggravating me. She meant to. Guess what we aged out of the single digits and found much better ways to get in trouble. Bolton and Pompousahole need to grow up and just let it go. Shouldn’t they be dreaming up new conflicts for emerging shipping lanes in the Arctic?

  129. 129.

    Peale

    June 20, 2019 at 10:12 pm

    @Aleta: yeah. I wish it were a story with a happy ending. Like maybe he befriended Eastland and got him to sign some progressive legislation, or through the years, Biden had softened the heart of a racist. Instead, they came together to pass legislation that Eastland wanted to pass.

  130. 130.

    Gin & Tonic

    June 20, 2019 at 10:13 pm

    @germy: With John Cage as accompanist.

  131. 131.

    MomSense

    June 20, 2019 at 10:13 pm

    @Jay:

    Trump can make Lybia, Nambia and Normay the new axis of evil!

    Sorry, couldn’t resist.

  132. 132.

    Searcher

    June 20, 2019 at 10:16 pm

    @Baud: Although there’d be a certain dinner party factoid benefit if the two Presidents whose names started TRUM were the only two to ever drop an A-bomb on another country.

  133. 133.

    TS (the original)

    June 20, 2019 at 10:17 pm

    @A Ghost To Most: Not Trump and his war mongering buddies

  134. 134.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 10:18 pm

    @MomSense:

    Shouldn’t they be dreaming up new conflicts for emerging shipping lanes in the Arctic?

    Funny thing is, any new shipping lanes in the Arctic, are going to be in Russian waters.

  135. 135.

    MomSense

    June 20, 2019 at 10:19 pm

    This administration can’t even fill all the missing cabinet secretary positions and they’re going to successfully fight a war against Iran?

  136. 136.

    TS (the original)

    June 20, 2019 at 10:19 pm

    @Kent:

    assuming it is legit

    Big assumption from this administration

  137. 137.

    Bill Arnold

    June 20, 2019 at 10:19 pm

    @Jeffro:

    Important thing to remember here is that trumpov doesn’t wanna get on Putin’s bad side…I see the US standing down in 3, 2, 1…
    Reply

    What exactly does Putin want? Russia has a lot to gain from a dramatic spike in oil prices. Putin has been known to lie.

  138. 138.

    Baud

    June 20, 2019 at 10:20 pm

    @MomSense:

    Who said anything about successful?

  139. 139.

    Leto

    June 20, 2019 at 10:20 pm

    @NotMax:

    On the plus side, at least it’s not Kuwait, from which there’s been report of reaching 63°C (145°F).

    I’ve spent more time in that type of heat, in that region, than I want to think about. People complain about dry heat or humid heat… all I’m going to say is that when you think your brain is on fire, it doesn’t matter. I had a picture, which I think I’ve lost in the many moves, where I was standing outside the workout tent, pointing at the outside thermometer whose needle had moved past 140F by about 8 degrees. Good memories.

  140. 140.

    Mike in DC

    June 20, 2019 at 10:21 pm

    @Peale: They came together to pass anti-busing legislation. If Biden had just let sleeping dogs lie and when asked about stuff like this said something about personal growth, he’d probably survive unscathed. He brought this up unbidden. WaPo followed up on the actual working relationship with Eastland and, of course, linked it back to Biden’s dabbling/pandering to white backlash politics in the 70s. Symone Sanders is probably hyperventilating into a paper bag right now.

  141. 141.

    J R in WV

    June 20, 2019 at 10:21 pm

    I have reviewed Senator Joe Biden’s letters to Senator Eastman, (R-Bigotry). Mostly just asking boss Senator for appointments to Joe’s preferred committees, and thanks for the appointments he got.

    Then shit got real, asking Sen. R Bigot for his help passing the no Federal Funds for Forced Busing Bill, one of the letters signed by both Sen. Biden AND Strom Thurmond. Another racist bastard currently being spit turned by two of Satan’s best roaster sjupervisors!

    Fuck this racist bastard is my final decision.

    Black kids should all be trapped in falling down old school buildings with text books discarded by the white schools? Nope. Fuck no. They should be in school with the Mayor’s kid, and Joe Biden’s kid. That’s equality for you…

  142. 142.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 10:21 pm

    On January 12, 2016, two United States Navy riverine command boats were seized by Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) Navy after they entered Iranian territorial waters near Iran’s Farsi Island in the Persian Gulf. Initially, the U.S. military claimed the sailors inadvertently entered Iranian waters owing to mechanical failure, but it was later reported that they entered Iranian waters because of navigational errors.[3] The U.S. secretary of state, John Kerry, called the Iranian foreign minister Mohammad Javad Zarif within five minutes. His call was followed by multiple other phone calls between the two ministers. The sailors had a brief verbal exchange with the Iranian military and were released, unharmed, 15 hours later.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_U.S.–Iran_naval_incident

  143. 143.

    laura

    June 20, 2019 at 10:22 pm

    Hey, remember that time we shot down and Irananian passenger plane killing all on board and suffered few, if any consequences and it didn’t lead to war?
    Yeah, neither do most Americans, and Bolton and Pompeo aren’t asked about it by our media betters.
    Well I remember. I’m still ashamed.

  144. 144.

    MomSense

    June 20, 2019 at 10:25 pm

    @Bill Arnold:

    Exactly. This would be a huge assist to Putin. We would be so completely bogged down and ruined by war with Iran and oil and gas prices would skyrocket. Putin would love this. He’s probably celebrating with the best vodka at his Sochi pad.

  145. 145.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 20, 2019 at 10:25 pm

    Sarah Huckabee Sanders and the reporters who cover the White House haven’t always had the smoothest relationship. But that isn’t stopping some of those journalists from organizing a goodbye party for the outgoing White House press secretary next week.
    On Wednesday, two White House correspondents, Politico’s Anita Kumar and DailyMail.com’s Francesca Chambers, invited fellow reporters and some Trump staffers to “farewell drinks” for Sanders at an upscale D.C. restaurant on June 24, according to a copy of the email invitation obtained by HuffPost.

    I’m only surprised it won’t be at the trump hotel, and that no Axios reporter is helping to organize it

    Charles P. Pierce @ CharlesPPierce
    Here I am as an editor:
    Any of you going to a farewell party for that truthless Ozark hack can skip coming in on Monday

  146. 146.

    Leto

    June 20, 2019 at 10:25 pm

    @Jay:

    but it was later reported that they entered Iranian waters because of navigational errors.

    Anyone remember the RQ-170 they GPS spoofed and caused to crash in their territory? Then proudly showed off? I’m sure that’s down the memory hole too.

  147. 147.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 10:29 pm

    @Bill Arnold:

    Iran is a “client”.

    The US pushing for a deranged war on Iran, moves US Allies away from the US and US “Clients” in the Gulf who don’t want to be collateral damage, away from the US.

    US backing down from a deranged war on Iran, causes US “Allies” who have their waron for Iran as long as the US does all the heavy lifting, causes those “Allies” to draw away from the US despite the billions they have spent on Drumph.

    It’s a win-win for Putin when Russia looks like the sane, helpful and “fair” moderate in the region.

  148. 148.

    PsiFighter37

    June 20, 2019 at 10:30 pm

    Maybe shallow, but Donnie looks like a complete idiot when he sits up in the chair, belly hanging out, and putting his hands together in that weird upside-down triangle pose. Where the fuck did he learn his mannerisms from?

    PF37 +2 beers, +1 protein shake

  149. 149.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 10:31 pm

    @Leto:

    Posted it up thread.

  150. 150.

    J R in WV

    June 20, 2019 at 10:32 pm

    @germy:

    Roy Moore says: “I would like to make more personal contact with people.”

    And now I wonder with exactly which parts of his body Mr Moore wants to “make more personal contact with [which parts of which] people.” Hmmm?

  151. 151.

    Leto

    June 20, 2019 at 10:33 pm

    @Jay: Ah, ok. I kind of skipped down because there were quite a few comments…

  152. 152.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 10:37 pm

    @Leto:

    #57

  153. 153.

    VOR

    June 20, 2019 at 10:37 pm

    @Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]: The quote is from “The Hunt for Red October”, not “Top Gun”. Both the US and Soviet fleets are in close proximity in the Atlantic, both on a heightened alert state.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-JA1ffd5Ms

  154. 154.

    Leto

    June 20, 2019 at 10:39 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: All I’ll say regarding this is that 1) there’s two distinct locations for ops: local and remote, and 2) Nevada is not the only remote location. Far from it.

  155. 155.

    MomSense

    June 20, 2019 at 10:39 pm

    @PsiFighter37:

    The kids call that hand pose his “vagina hands”. He’s grotesque and so fucking bizarre and clownish. It’s not a good kind of freak.

  156. 156.

    Bill Arnold

    June 20, 2019 at 10:42 pm

    @PsiFighter37:

    and putting his hands together in that weird upside-down triangle pose.

    Link? Not spotting anything in google images in the last week. Sorry to see that he’s finally figured out how to make something that resembles a proper small fist. The pseudo-fist (with thumbs in the wrong position) was amusing. (I’m a connoisseur of his alien quirks. :-)

  157. 157.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 10:42 pm

    On 11 November 2001, U.S. Special Forces Operational Detachment Alpha 554 (“Tiger 08”) was inserted by helicopter near Herat.[7] As planned, Iranian commandos secretly entered Herat to begin the insurrection on November 12, which successfully gave way to, what Ismail Khan claimed to be, the local uprising against the Taliban leaders. The Northern Alliance, Shi’ite Hazara factions, and a small group of U.S. Special Forces then entered the city.[5] Herati residents also took part in the uprising with sticks, knives, and guns hidden throughout the populace. The city fell as the Taliban fled towards the mountains along the Iranian border, leaving behind several abandoned tanks. Prisoners, including Chechen and Arab volunteers, were taken to undisclosed locations.[8]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_uprising_in_Herat

  158. 158.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 10:43 pm

    @Jay: We have either conventional and/or special operations underway in 160 countries.

  159. 159.

    Uncle Cosmo

    June 20, 2019 at 10:44 pm

    @TenguPhule: Maybe his house Nazi (Miller) inspired him with tales of Hanna Reitsch flying a modified V-1…

  160. 160.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 10:46 pm

    @PsiFighter37
    Stalin?

  161. 161.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 10:46 pm

    @Leto:

    I had a picture, which I think I’ve lost in the many moves, where I was standing outside the workout tent, pointing at the outside thermometer whose needle had moved past 140F by about 8 degrees. Good memories.

    And that was at 11 PM!

  162. 162.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 10:48 pm

    @Leto: I’m aware.

  163. 163.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 10:49 pm

    A year after the incident a British MoD investigation report was released which stated that the area in which the incident took place was not covered by any internationally agreed delineation. US forces had defined an operational boundary, but that had not been communicated to Iran, and Iranian forces crossed this operational boundary an average of 12 times per month. Since the 1975 Algiers Agreement the Shatt al-Arab channel had shifted in favour of Iran, and any Iranian notional boundary was not known to the US coalition.[2] While innocent passage is permitted in each other’s waters, boarding and compliance inspections in another state’s waters would not be lawful.[28]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Iranian_arrest_of_Royal_Navy_personnel

  164. 164.

    Leto

    June 20, 2019 at 10:51 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Haha, actually at 11pm (2300) it was a mere 100F. But man, it felt sooooo gooood! It also really help me understand why the locals all wear the flowing/loose fitting robes.

  165. 165.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 10:52 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Yup, I was just listing an off the top of the head list of “still shooting” ones.

    Forgot a few.

  166. 166.

    Librarian

    June 20, 2019 at 10:53 pm

    @J R in WV: Actually, Eastland was a Democrat.

  167. 167.

    MomSense

    June 20, 2019 at 10:54 pm

    @Bill Arnold:

    The Dana Houle tweet at the top of this post.

  168. 168.

    Bill Arnold

    June 20, 2019 at 10:54 pm

    @MomSense:
    Thanks! Found an image – https://advancelocal-adapter-image-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/image.oregonlive.com/home/olive-media/width2048/img/today/photo/AP_14942637066.jpg
    and TBH I have no clue yet what it means. Might have something to do with his mental model of his genitalia.

  169. 169.

    MomSense

    June 20, 2019 at 10:58 pm

    @Bill Arnold:

    The kids have developed a lingo for these things. Vagina hands, accordion arms, anus mouth, etc.

  170. 170.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 10:58 pm

    @Leto: I remember it well. The shift once the temperature got to 105 or 100 and it suddenly felt cool.

    At our FOB, the gym was in a huge air conditioned tent. So you’d get there, go in, and it would be like 68 degrees. You’d work out, finish, grab your stuff, and go back out into 100 plus degree heat.

  171. 171.

    Steve in the ATL

    June 20, 2019 at 11:00 pm

    @MomSense:

    The stupid map they produced looked like something from Bugs Bunny.

    Was it the map where Bugs saws off Florida and it floats away? I love that one!

  172. 172.

    Bill Arnold

    June 20, 2019 at 11:02 pm

    @MomSense:
    Thanks, that one too. As a Tai Chi type hand position, it makes no real sense to me but it feels like genitalia might be involved. (male/female/other/combination?) What a peculiar being he is!

  173. 173.

    Bill Arnold

    June 20, 2019 at 11:10 pm

    @MomSense:
    Here’s a small collection.
    Life Accordion To Trump
    and
    https://me.me/i/trump-called-adam-schiff-pencil-neck-air-anus-mouth-came-6631de65bb364228a7fb5a5306579916

  174. 174.

    Another Scott

    June 20, 2019 at 11:11 pm

    There are noises on Twitter now that FTFNYT has a story that Donnie approved some sort of retaliatory strike against Iran today, but then changed his mind.

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  175. 175.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 20, 2019 at 11:19 pm

    @Another Scott: on MSNBC, they said that planes were in the air, ships were moving into position, and then the stand down order came

    who knows what to believe now

  176. 176.

    Dmbeaster

    June 20, 2019 at 11:22 pm

    @laura: The US Navy gave medals to those responsible for shooting down a civilian airliner in order to maintain the charade that they did the right thing.

  177. 177.

    Leto

    June 20, 2019 at 11:22 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Oh yeah, our tent in Iraq and Afghanistan was like that. Nice and cold, walk outside and immediately be hit by this heat wave. That was something I always, strangely, looked forward to when stepping off the plane. That first initial blast of heat signifying, yup, you’re back.

    Back to the gym: what I love about my Army brethren is their eternal love of the gym. Everything else will be shit, but man that gym is a holy temple and is appointed like one. A+

  178. 178.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 20, 2019 at 11:25 pm

    @Leto: We had an amazing gym. The D-Fac, I learned three years later from one of my students who was a logistician, was defective and was supposed to be decommissioned (which explained why when I ate with the Iraqis I was fine, when I ate in the D-Fac I was sick). So excellent gym, crappy dining facility. Our PX kind of sucked. It always looked like it had just been picked over by a horde of locusts.

  179. 179.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 11:26 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist

    and then the stand down order came

    Someone got through to him that the Dem debate with Biden on stage is next Thursday.

  180. 180.

    NotMax

    June 20, 2019 at 11:28 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    crappy dining facility

    It ain’t called mess for nuthin’.

    ;)

  181. 181.

    Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]

    June 20, 2019 at 11:32 pm

    @VOR: Ah yes, you are correct. I had a bad google search but watched the clip in the Hunt for Red October video. Still, my original point stands.

  182. 182.

    Procopius

    June 20, 2019 at 11:38 pm

    @David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: That’s an excellent question. I’ve been wondering, too. Not one single report of a drone murder that I remember seeing since Januare 20, 2017. And what happened to the “threat matrix?” We did see some reports on Obama’s drone program after the Awlakis, father and son, were killed in Yeman, but no more reports about the President having authority to order anyone, citizen or not, killed anywhere in the world, without due process or outside review. I feel sure they’ve been doing it, but it seems the six billionaires who own the media have decided it’s not newsworthy and must not be reported on. I think it’s exactly the kind of thing Trump would love to do. Has he?

  183. 183.

    laura

    June 20, 2019 at 11:48 pm

    @Dmbeaster: I cannot imagine the burden of grief and PTSD that those soldiers must bear. The cost is too damn high. But hey, here’s a medal to remind you of the hollowness of an Iran policy that strategically forgets the overthrow of a Democratically elected leader who had the affrontery to nationalize the greatest resource and all that followed including the devolution from vibrant modern society to theocratic government and a barely simmering under employed population. Because those folks are still sitting on top of our oil.

  184. 184.

    Jay

    June 20, 2019 at 11:53 pm

    @Procopius:

    While No One Is Looking, Trump Is Escalating America’s Drone War

    In expanding US drone strikes in Yemen, Somalia, and Afghanistan, Trump has “shredded” Obama-era safeguards to minimizing the risk of civilian casualties.

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7xmadd/trump-escalating-americas-drone-war?utm_source=viceadwordsca&utm_medium=cpc

    The New Face of American War Is a Robot

    Artificial intelligence makes it easier for us to think of war in the abstract—and makes it harder to stop fighting.
    By Allegra Harpootlian and Emily Manna APRIL 29, 2019

    https://www.thenation.com/article/tom-dispatch-american-warfare-drones-military-tech-robot/

  185. 185.

    Another Scott

    June 20, 2019 at 11:57 pm

    @Procopius: No link, but Donnie rescinded Obama’s reporting requirements about drone actions. That’s why we don’t hear about it anymore. (That, and the GGs of the world don’t find it interesting any more, for some reason…)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  186. 186.

    Procopius

    June 21, 2019 at 12:04 am

    @Adam L Silverman:

    The only reason it would do so would be if it was off the leash or there was a major navigational malfunction.

    I’m confused as to who the quote is from, but this statement is clearly not accurate. Another possible cause would be an intentional provocation. I don’t know what the phrase “off the leash” means, so maybe there are other possible causes for it to have strayed from the anticipated/programmed flight path.

  187. 187.

    Leto

    June 21, 2019 at 12:05 am

    @Adam L Silverman: Haha, at least you HAD a bx! My Iraq FOB, we had the local guy selling bootleg copies of movies. Our closest bx was a 90 minute chopper ride away. The DFAC there was good.

    Afghanistan… so we were transitioning a NATO base over to a full US run place. North Kabul International Airport. We looked the base up online before we left, saw that it was ranked “worst DFAC” in the AOR. It was run by a Dutch conglomerate called SUPREME. Like KBR for Europe. The second week we were there, went in for lunch one day, and found out why they were ranked that way.

    Get up to the serving line and something was smelling funky. Like, raw sewage funky. Turns out it was the rice. Not sure what they cooked it in, but it smelled like sewage. I didn’t eat rice for the next 7 months. I like rice and I wanted it to stay that way. Just as we were rotating out, KBR was building a new DFAC on site. /shrug

  188. 188.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 21, 2019 at 12:11 am

    @Procopius: That is from the author of the article at War on the Rocks.

  189. 189.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 21, 2019 at 12:12 am

    @Leto: We had a local shop and restaurant too!

    I was at Hammer. We inherited from 3/3 ID. Where were you at?

  190. 190.

    Jay

    June 21, 2019 at 12:21 am

    WASHINGTON — President Trump approved military strikes against Iran in retaliation for downing an American surveillance drone, but pulled back from launching them on Thursday night after a day of escalating tensions.

    As late as 7 p.m., military and diplomatic officials were expecting a strike, after intense discussions and debate at the White House among the president’s top national security officials and congressional leaders, according to multiple senior administration officials involved in or briefed on the deliberations.

    Officials said the president had initially approved attacks on a handful of Iranian targets, like radar and missile batteries.

    Sorry, but it’s the FTFNYT,

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/20/world/middleeast/iran-us-drone.html

  191. 191.

    J R in WV

    June 21, 2019 at 5:35 am

    @Librarian:

    @J R in WV: Actually, Eastland was a Democrat.

    True, dat. Was why Biden kept writing him asking for committee position appointments. Been different so long it was too easy to type all wrong. And Strom, who had a good strong signature back then.

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