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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Highlights Of Today’s Hearing And Evening Open Thread

Highlights Of Today’s Hearing And Evening Open Thread

by Cheryl Rofer|  November 21, 20195:44 pm| 128 Comments

This post is in: Impeachment Hearings, Impeachment Inquiry, Open Threads

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Here’s Adam Schiff’s closing statement, in parts, and a few other tweets of interest. They’re rough, but worth listening to.

SCHIFF skewers Republicans "hearsay" defense: "If that were true, you could never present any evidence in court unless the jury was also in the ward room [as eyewitnesses]! That's absurd." pic.twitter.com/Qwof35KZU2

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) November 21, 2019

SCHIFF closes #ImpeachmentHearings: "There is nothing more dangerous than an unethical POTUS who believes they are above the law… I would just say to people watching here, at home, & around the world, in the words of my great colleague — we are better than that! *gavel bang*" pic.twitter.com/3MXlvxHCs1

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) November 21, 2019

On crowdstrike:

Goldman: There's no basis for these allegations

Hill: Correct

Goldman: And Sr. advisors told Trump it was false

Hill: That's correct.

Goldman: So Trump disregarded that advice and listened to Giuliani

Hill: That appears to be the case, yes. pic.twitter.com/SBp5C6Kd11

— Lis Power (@LisPower1) November 21, 2019

At first glance, this moment in Fiona Hill's testimony seems like she's immunizing Trump.

She's actually damning him. pic.twitter.com/9hYAql7v4b

— Vox (@voxdotcom) November 21, 2019

'This is the new Protocols of the Elders of Zion': Dr. Fiona Hill says conspiracy theories involving George Soros and being targeted at her are anti-Semitic pic.twitter.com/xAXopafnme

— Reuters (@Reuters) November 21, 2019

Long thread by a historian on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

As a historian who writes about antisemitism—including the Protocols—in America in the 20th century… this is absolutely the case. https://t.co/mgD3TELja7

— David Walsh (@DavidAstinWalsh) November 21, 2019
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Reader Interactions

128Comments

  1. 1.

    debbie

    November 21, 2019 at 5:48 pm

    I listened on headphones at work. It was very difficult not to jump up and cheer during Fiona Hill’s testimony. It sounded like Schiff broke his gavel when he closed the hearing. A good day all around

     

    ETA: One of the real highlights was Schiff’s insistence that Trump’s misdeeds are far, far worse than anything Nixon did. Hot damn!

  2. 2.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2019 at 5:53 pm

    I linked this in the last thread, but I’m putting it here too. It’s a FTFNYT link, but the excerpt in the picture says a boy lit one of her pigtails on fire while they were taking a test at school when she was 11 years old. Didn’t faze her a bit.

    Fiona Hill, at 11: “She put the fire out with her hands, and finished the test.”https://t.co/6cqMVf1Wqm pic.twitter.com/gqSh4WZ0N6— Kate Bennett (@KateBennett_DC) November 21, 2019

    What a great role model for girls dealing with bullying. I did see in another tweet that she did regret that it meant having to get an unflattering bowl cut, unfortunately. America is lucky Brits are snobby about people like her just based on how she talks.

  3. 3.

    West of the Rockies

    November 21, 2019 at 5:53 pm

    For me, the sad, startling truth is that about one of every three Americans we meet support this president.  They support lying, thievery, cheating, racism, bigotry, homophobia…

     

    One in three.  I would have guessed it was 1 in 10 prior to 2016.  Then again, I am a cis straight white male in California.

     

    One in three.

  4. 4.

    Yarrow

    November 21, 2019 at 5:55 pm

    @debbie:

     One of the real highlights was Schiff’s insistence that Trump’s misdeeds are far, far worse than anything Nixon did. Hot damn!

    This has been obvious for ages. So nice to hear someone of his stature say it.

  5. 5.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 21, 2019 at 5:56 pm

    @Mary G: She is extremely well-respected in the Eastern Europe-nerd community.

  6. 6.

    jimmiraybob

    November 21, 2019 at 5:58 pm

    Hill:  A Trump flunky once challenged me.  I ate his liver with some fava beans.  And a nice Chianti

  7. 7.

    Princess

    November 21, 2019 at 5:59 pm

    I low-key have a crush on Adam Schiff. I am not alone.

  8. 8.

    Yarrow

    November 21, 2019 at 6:00 pm

    @Mary G:  Someone asked her about it in the hearing and she talked about how he mother gave her an unflattering bowl haircut, which she had for the school photos and she thought she looked like Richard III.

  9. 9.

    debbie

    November 21, 2019 at 6:03 pm

    @Yarrow:

     

    She wasn’t wrong. I hadn’t seen her until seeing the tweets just now. But what woman doesn’t have a nightmare story involving her hair and her mother?

  10. 10.

    Yarrow

    November 21, 2019 at 6:03 pm

    I’ve heard different things but I’ll ask here again in case someone has heard a definitive answer. Are there more open hearings? I wouldn’t expect any next week because of Thanksgiving but maybe after that?

     

    Adam suggested in a previous thread that Mark Sandy from OMB would maybe testify since he did closed session last Saturday. Also I think they’re waiting on the MdGahn verdict, which will likely impact how many others do or don’t testify. But some news outlets have made it sound like this is it and it’s off to figure out Articles of Impeachment. Seems way too soon for that to me. I mean, of course they could do it, but I think there’s plenty more that needs to come out.

  11. 11.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2019 at 6:04 pm

    I follow a number of historians on twitter. Many of them are sounding the alarm about the fact that universities are dropping tenured positions in history.

    David Walsh in the Protocols thread linked above links to another thread about the dangers of this:

    This data is terrifying. If this trend keeps up there will be no reason for smart people to get PhD's in history, and writing history will be left up to political hacks and trust fund kids who think it's a cool hobby to write history. pic.twitter.com/g05pm8TJKg— Seth Cotlar (@SethCotlar) November 20, 2019

    Trust me, you do not want to live in a future where the only people who write history books are Fox News hosts like Brian Kilmeade and Bill O'Reilly. https://t.co/l8pu2nBwJf— Seth Cotlar (@SethCotlar) November 20, 2019

    He recommends a good hate listen in a Federalist podcast, which I don’t have the stomach for, but anything conservatives and particularly those fascists are against, I’m for.

  12. 12.

    MattF

    November 21, 2019 at 6:06 pm

    The deep state conspiracy appears to consist of everyone in government who is intelligent, patriotic, and knowledgeable.

  13. 13.

    tokyokie

    November 21, 2019 at 6:06 pm

    Not only is the linking of Soros to every harebrained conspiracy theory anti-Semitic, so is Trump’s nickname for the committee chairman, “Schifty Schiff.” I’m just surprised Trump hasn’t called him “Shylock Schiff” on Twitter.

  14. 14.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 21, 2019 at 6:08 pm

    @Mary G: I’m not sure we can trust someone who uses “data” as a singular noun.

  15. 15.

    trollhattan

    November 21, 2019 at 6:08 pm

    She is so damn direct, concise and unflappable, plus an evidently limitless well of knowledge. They were no not prepared to break or or catch her in some asinine trap.

    One of the most peculiar English accents I’ve encountered. Proximity to Scotland must have something to do with that. Fascinating person who’s suddenly a public figure, I expect to her consternation.

  16. 16.

    tokyokie

    November 21, 2019 at 6:09 pm

    @MattF:

     

    The deep state conspiracy appears to consist of everyone in government who is intelligent, patriotic, and knowledgeable.

    That’s what makes the plot so nefarious!

  17. 17.

    Baud

    November 21, 2019 at 6:09 pm

    @MattF: So it IS partisan!

  18. 18.

    Baud

    November 21, 2019 at 6:11 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

     

    Dammit, Gin. He’s a historian, not a linguist.

  19. 19.

    jimmiraybob

    November 21, 2019 at 6:12 pm

    @MattF:

    “The deep state conspiracy appears to consist of everyone in government who is intelligent, patriotic, and knowledgeable.”

    This has serious implications for the shallow state.

  20. 20.

    Yarrow

    November 21, 2019 at 6:12 pm

    @trollhattan:  It’s a northeast English accent. Sort of a Geordie accent but not quite. Sightly softer.

  21. 21.

    Sloane Ranger

    November 21, 2019 at 6:16 pm

    @Mary G:

     
    America is lucky Brits are snobby about people like her just based on how she talks.
     

    Actually, speaking as a Brit, her accent is usually considered as demonstrating good, down to earth common sense.

    I asked in what appears to be a dead thread whether she addressed the smears against Lt. Col. Vindman, especially the idea he leaked. Can anyone tell me what, if anything, she said?

  22. 22.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2019 at 6:16 pm

    @debbie:But what woman doesn’t have a nightmare story involving her hair and her mother?

    Sadly true. Mine involves teen me getting a Pat Nixon hair helmet and swearing it wouldn’t ever cut it again.

    She didn’t believe me, but I let it get down to my knees :)

  23. 23.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2019 at 6:19 pm

    @Yarrow: Schiff is playing things close to the vest, but if I had to guess, I’d say there is an argument going on between Democrats between those who think people will lose interest or understanding if they go past this one Ukraine offense, and those who want to go after obstruction more generally. I’m in favor of taking as long as it takes, like Charley.

     

    There is absolutely no reason to short-circuit the inquiry now.— Charles P. Pierce (@CharlesPPierce) November 21, 2019

    Why quit when you’re winning?

    I don’t think they’ll decide before the holiday. Let Republicans take Maalox with their turkey and football wondering what else Schiff can pull out of the hat.

  24. 24.

    debbie

    November 21, 2019 at 6:19 pm

    @WereBear:

     

    Mine was being sent for a haircut in ninth grade. I was too busy reading a magazine to realize, at my mother’s phoned orders, she was cutting my waist-length hair up to my chin. I had a cow and a half.

  25. 25.

    Mr. Mack

    November 21, 2019 at 6:19 pm

    Re-posted from downstairs thread:  Question for you legal beagles…Any chance Rudy gets charged?  If so, he can’t claim attorney/client privilege since he would likely be charged with a felony, amirite?

  26. 26.

    satby

    November 21, 2019 at 6:21 pm

    Let’s see if this works:

    I am sorry I wasn’t able to watch the debate, here’s what I can glean from the comments I see. We had 10 people on stage. 9 of them would be 100 times more preferable than 45. And there was also Tulsi.— Pam Keith (@PamKeithFL)

  27. 27.

    zhena gogolia

    November 21, 2019 at 6:22 pm

    @Sloane Ranger:

     

    She basically debunked that. It’s a complex explanation, but basically she thought he wouldn’t do well in the politicized environment that Ukraine policy was becoming. She said nothing about him being a “leaker.” She spoke very highly of him.

  28. 28.

    WereBear

    November 21, 2019 at 6:22 pm

    @debbie: I would have too!

  29. 29.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 21, 2019 at 6:22 pm

    Holy cow, I don’t want to fat-shame, but looking at some clips, there’s a guy sitting behind Wenstrup who looks like his neck blends seamlessly into his chest. Dude, really?

  30. 30.

    Baud

    November 21, 2019 at 6:23 pm

    @Mr. Mack: Attorney client privilege doesn’t shield you from criminal prosecution.

  31. 31.

    debbie

    November 21, 2019 at 6:24 pm

    @Sloane Ranger:

     

    Here and here.

    She may be a coal miner’s daughter, but she was far, far more intelligent than any of her detractors.

  32. 32.

    Elizabelle

    November 21, 2019 at 6:25 pm

    @Sloane Ranger:   I am looking for a transcript for you now re Hill statements re Vindman.  She did have a lot to say on that matter …

     

    ====

    WRT wrapping up the hearings:  Sounds like it’s possible the Supreme Court could announce in December or so that they will let lower court rulings stand re release of Trump’s tax returns.  In the event they decide that way, wouldn’t we see another round of investigations?

     

    And there is the Parnas connection. I don’t see where Schiff & Committee necessarily need to stop here.  Is that the case??

  33. 33.

    Dave Empey

    November 21, 2019 at 6:26 pm

    @debbie: I hope you made your mother regret it.

  34. 34.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2019 at 6:26 pm

    @Sloane Ranger: She was scathing. She brought up the Protocols as an example of the nonsense directed at allegations of dual loyalty against him. She also hit back at Morrison’s claim that Vindman’s judgment was bad. She felt as a military officer he should not have been dragged into what was becoming a political fight and implied Morrison distorted what she said about it.

  35. 35.

    trollhattan

    November 21, 2019 at 6:27 pm

    @Mr. Mack:

    I’d settle for disbarment but I like charges even better. He’s up to his neck in Roger Stonelike misdeeds.

  36. 36.

    debbie

    November 21, 2019 at 6:33 pm

    @Elizabelle:

     

    There’s so much to be investigated that the hearings could drag on for far too long. I’m wondering if they can’t just add all the other issues (emoluments, etc.) to the articles of impeachment.

  37. 37.

    RandomMonster

    November 21, 2019 at 6:34 pm

    @Are there more open hearings?

    I came here hoping to find the answer to this as well. I work from home and I’ve enjoyed listening to the hearings. I’d like more weeks of this!

  38. 38.

    debbie

    November 21, 2019 at 6:34 pm

    @Dave Empey:

     

    Not like I wanted to.

  39. 39.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 21, 2019 at 6:36 pm

    @Mary G: Remember, once Schiff and the Intelligence Committee is finished, they will refer the matter to the Judiciary Committee which may also hold hearings.  Remember we also have Christmas break in late December(though the Speaker may keep the House in session though part of that to pass another CR).

  40. 40.

    Sloane Ranger

    November 21, 2019 at 6:42 pm

    Thanks to everyone who responded about  Lt Col. Vindman. I am glad she defended him. He seemed a decent, honest guy.

  41. 41.

    Yarrow

    November 21, 2019 at 6:49 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:  He’s kind of amazing. It’s like his jowl is a scarf.

    I want to know who the guy is who sits behind Schiff every day. He reminds me of an actor but I can’t figure out who.

  42. 42.

    tobie

    November 21, 2019 at 6:49 pm

    @Princess: I totally have a crush on Adam Schiff. He is brilliant and, much to my delight, has shown himself to be a powerful orator. I didn’t know that going into these hearings. I had no doubt that he would ask incisive questions and produce summaries on the cuff that would be remarkably clear and well-phrased. But I didn’t anticipate he would close every hearing with reflections that would increase in pace and volume as he approached the final word. While he’s got a different manner than Obama, there’s something similar in the way the two crescendo in their speeches. I’ve come to the conclusion that if we have a brokered convention because of too many candidates dividing delegates and Bernie refusing to step down, Adam Schiff should be put forward as an alternative nominee in the final round. The impeachment proceedings in the House will be over by then, so the timing would work. And I like him better than all the candidates. This is a pipe dream…but what the hell.

  43. 43.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2019 at 6:58 pm

    @tobie: I said that the other day. If the voters really can’t decide on a candidate after the convention’s first votes, Schiff would win it in a walk. Not sure he wants to be president or that it would be the best use of his talents, but he would shred Twitler in the general. Too bad he’s too old to nominate to the Supremes.//

  44. 44.

    Sebastian

    November 21, 2019 at 6:59 pm

    @Yarrow:

     

    No, this is not over. Ukraine is the lynchpin of everything Russia. There is a direct line from this to changing the RNC platform.

  45. 45.

    debbie

    November 21, 2019 at 7:00 pm

    @tobie:

     

    Compare him to Devin Nunes, who came off like a petulant, frustrated bully.

  46. 46.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2019 at 7:02 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

     

    @Yarrow:

     

    Speaking solely for myself as a fat person, this is fat shaming and it makes me feel bad. Would you talk about a scar, birthmark, deformed limb like this? I don’t think so.

  47. 47.

    Martin

    November 21, 2019 at 7:06 pm

    Boy, this doesn’t sound like a strategy of the GOP Senate protecting Trump:

    Republican lawmakers on Capitol Hill are working with the White House to prepare for the likely Senate impeachment trial of President Donald Trump, coalescing around the idea that allowing Democrats to lay out their evidence may be the best course of action to protect the President.
    …

    One GOP lawmaker told CNN that right now conversations are happening to temper the expectations of the President as to what is possible. The case being made is that a full trial provides the President with the ability to clear his name and, the lawmaker notes, cutting off the process early could make it look like he has something to hide.

    This looks to me like a strategy of giving Trump a lot of rope by which to hang him by. If Trump isn’t giving the Senate much to work with in protecting him and is probably convinced he’s smart enough to roll in and  convince everyone he’s innocent. The Senate is watching their colleagues in the House make an ass of themselves and would probably prefer to avoid the same fate.

     

    I think Trump is being cut loose if this is their strategy.

  48. 48.

    jharp

    November 21, 2019 at 7:07 pm

    “I would just say to people watching here, at home, & around the world, in the words of my great colleague — we are better than that!“

     

    Some of us are but as a whole?

     

    I’m not so sure.

  49. 49.

    MomSense

    November 21, 2019 at 7:13 pm

    @Princess:

     

    I love his voice, but I think he should always wear sunglasses.

  50. 50.

    Timurid

    November 21, 2019 at 7:15 pm

    When a boy rat and a girl rat love each other very, very much…

  51. 51.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2019 at 7:16 pm

    @Sloane Ranger: I responded in the dead thread, but @zhena gogolia: said it more succinctly. Hill defended Lt. Col. Vindman without reserve. Her only concern about him (in the context of handing over her job to Morrison, I believe, and thereby providing a skills assessment of her various staffers including the Lt. Col.) was that Vindman’s military training might not be the best skill set to handle the highly politicized situation that the Ukraine had become. Or, what Gogol’s Wife said.

  52. 52.

    cmorenc

    November 21, 2019 at 7:17 pm

    @Mary G:

    What a great role model for girls dealing with bullying. I did see in another tweet that she did regret that it meant having to get an unflattering bowl cut, unfortunately. America is lucky Brits are snobby about people like her just based on how she talks.

    When my two now-adult daughters were young, my wife foisted short versions of “Dorothy Hamill” haircuts on each of them (kinda bowl-like) – which as soon as they each respectively got to be around 9-10 yo with enough self-awareness and independence, firmly told my wife they thought the ‘do made them look like dorks, and flatly refused to ever let her cut their hair short like that again.

  53. 53.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 21, 2019 at 7:19 pm

    @Mary G: I apologize for offending. To me, it wasn’t that he’s fat, it was the whole appearance. People commented on the fact that Morrison was 7 feet tall. If somebody had a birthmark shaped like Jabba the Hutt on their forehead, people might also comment on that.

     

    I’ll try to do better.

  54. 54.

    FelonyGovt

    November 21, 2019 at 7:20 pm

    @debbie: At about 11 years old, I thought I was getting the cute haircut I wanted, but my mother secretly told the stylist to cut it very short! I have worn my hair long ever since (even now, and I’m 65).

  55. 55.

    MJS

    November 21, 2019 at 7:23 pm

    @debbie: Which likely puzzled every single Republican, who were thinking, “Richard the 3rd what?”

  56. 56.

    tobie

    November 21, 2019 at 7:25 pm

    @Mary G: Supreme Court Justice Schiff has a nice ring to it! He’s actually got plenty of career options from Speaker of the House, when Pelosi retires, to Senator, when Dianne Feinstein steps down. I don’t worry about his career, but I do worry about the country and think he would be a good candidate for Pres, especially now when the rule of law is on the line. My sense is that Schiff commands respect. You see that in the way caucus members look at him.  The BernieBros might complain he’s not progressive enough but I suspect most people are comfortable with him. Whatever happens we’re lucky to have him as Chair of the House Intelligence Committee right now.

     

    Someone said to me recently that Schiff’s become too much of a flash point for Republicans and the only thing I could think was that try as they may they’ve not been able to dent his reputation. The GOP will throw everything at whoever is the Dem nominee so I don’t don’t consider their response to any potential nominee disqualifying. It’s going to be ugly come summer.

  57. 57.

    Yarrow

    November 21, 2019 at 7:29 pm

    @Mary G:  I apologize for my comment being hurtful. It was not my intent. He has a very distinctive appearance and that was the intent of my comment. I think people do comment on distinctive things about others’ appearances, for better or worse. I know I’m on the receiving end of such comments on a regular basis. In any case, I apologize for my comment leading you to feel bad about myself. I also appreciate you speaking up.

  58. 58.

    J R in WV

    November 21, 2019 at 7:30 pm

    OK, back home. First, Ortho surgeon after looking at the MRI and the X-Rays his office took, strongly and positively recommended arthroscopic work to clean up some torn cartilage, as opposed to the total replacement I was expecting… YAY!!!

     

    Then I visited my cousin who is staying in a residence inn near the doctor’s office after his house caught fire. Good visit, I’ve been scanning many old family photos, which were not burned up nor drenched because they’re at my house, being scanned. We enjoyed chatting and looking at old family photos.  His dog woke him up at 1:30 am because THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!! and both of them are not in a burn ward, doing well. Double YAY!!!

     

    Then I stopped for famous prize-winning BBQ ribs and came home, only to discover that neighbor who shares our well had repaired the fault which caused the lack of water when I tried to make coffee this morning. It was some kind of GFI fault. The circuit to the outlet in the little well house to keep things thawed  all winter was down, she intends to repair that also, as she is the best electrician on the farm… Triple YAY!!!

     

    Before all this, fridge was grinding, replaced last week. Mattress died, replaced Wednesday. On a roll. Not sleeping on a hammock, or worrying that the freezer would be thawed in the morning, or no water, or no Knee. Or no Cousin~!!~ His insurance appears to be totally professional and covering things completely, which is not always a sure thing.

     

    Plus Dr. Fiona Hill appears to have done a typical professional job in her testimony, I was able to follow in comments until I went to cousin’s to visit.

     

    Will drink another great bottle of French champers in honor of all the great news.

  59. 59.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2019 at 7:32 pm

    Rebecca Traister is livetweeting Elizabeth Warren’s speech in Atlanta:

    “There will be no more hidden figures, @AyannaPressley says of Warren, noting “she is not just a great teacher; she is a student of the people.” Foregrounding a speech that’s going to be about the 1881 strike of black washerwomen that brought the economy of Atlanta to a halt.— Rebecca Traister (@rtraister) November 21, 2019

    Some protesters promoting charters?

  60. 60.

    Mary G

    November 21, 2019 at 7:35 pm

    @Mary G:

    She’s now saying we must look beyond history of enslavement to Jim Crow, red-lining, the crime bill. “Don’t talk about race neutral laws” she says, to huge response. The federal government broke it, now the federal government has to fix it (last part is my paraphrase)— Rebecca Traister (@rtraister) November 22, 2019

  61. 61.

    FelonyGovt

    November 21, 2019 at 7:38 pm

    @J R in WV:  I had arthroscopic surgery to clean up torn cartilage in my knee about 30 years ago. The surgery was more primitive back then but it worked. Glad you don’t need full replacement.

  62. 62.

    zhena gogolia

    November 21, 2019 at 7:39 pm

    @FelonyGovt:

     

    I was subjected to the dreaded “pixie.”  I then wore my hair long for about 20 years. It’s still not exactly short.

  63. 63.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2019 at 7:46 pm

    @zhena gogolia: Funny, I liked the pixie. Still do, after a fashion. My straight fine hair can’t handle anything much longer. I sported long hair in my teens, which to my jaded eyes looks like it might have been a mistake. But I made many of those then…and since.

  64. 64.

    jk

    November 21, 2019 at 7:52 pm

    Attention Jackals!

     

    Deval Patrick is on Hardball right now.

  65. 65.

    debbie

    November 21, 2019 at 7:56 pm

    I was checking out what @dick_nixon had to say about the hearings, and he noted that Gym Jordan never challenged Hill the way he did Holmes. Makes me wonder if little Gymmie is scared of strong women?

  66. 66.

    piratedan

    November 21, 2019 at 8:01 pm

    my guess is there’s no reason to stop now, especially since Schiff has pretty much conclusively shown that by Trump’s own admission, this is one time where he didn’t lie, he really did do the bribery/extortion thingy with taxpayer money for his own political benefit.  We’ve had the added benefit of having it broadcast to millions of Americans that within the GOP, evidence doesn’t matter, proof doesn’t matter, intent doesn’t matter, the only thing that DOES matter, to members of the GOP, is what party affiliation you have if you’re an American and how much money do you have if you’re not.

     

    So my guess is that he’s had subpoenas submitted but rejected (in itself a no-no, but hey, we’ve had loads of incriminating testimony already, not mention the statements of culpability from the key players.  I would suggest that we include conversations with Mr. Nunes associate and work on exposing those ties (hey, why not take a chess piece off the board, even if its removal is dubious, sends a message).  Lets not just expose the crime, how about we explore something key… like motive?

  67. 67.

    HumboldtBlue

    November 21, 2019 at 8:12 pm

    @Yarrow:

     

    County Durham, just south of Newcastle.

  68. 68.

    JCJ

    November 21, 2019 at 8:14 pm

    @Baud:

    Dammit, Gin. He’s a historian, not a linguist.

     

    Well done.  Some of your finest work!

  69. 69.

    Ruviana

    November 21, 2019 at 8:15 pm

    @Mary G: I  thought it was too. I just finished a memoir The Elephant in the Room by Tommy Tomlinson who writes movingly and hilariously about being morbidly obese his entire life. I’m fat and not exactly thrilled about it but this book reminded me that I can’t begin to imagine how that guy or anyone else experiences their weight or body.  I recommend the book.  It also had awesome descriptions of Southern cooking.

     

    ETA: This isn’t to jump on Yarrow or G&T, who, based on what I’ve seen of them here over the years would probably enjoy the book.

  70. 70.

    Jager

    November 21, 2019 at 8:15 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

     

    I think it’s the 400-pound guy, trump used to talk about, the one on a mattress in his mother’s basement.

  71. 71.

    Bobby Thomson

    November 21, 2019 at 8:16 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: He’s not a scientist.

  72. 72.

    PatrickG

    November 21, 2019 at 8:17 pm

    Open thread? OK!

    Today I learned a co-worker supports Tulsi Gabbard for her anti-war/anti-imperialism stances (at least by the US, at least in some contexts). I’m going to frankly admit that it was a LONG DAY and ask if jackals with bookmarks and/or other sources would mind linking a few to arm me in what promises to be a frustrating — but hopefully productive — conversation.

    There’s clearly other topics I can bring up in argument, but I want to go straight to the heart of why this co-worker (who I respect) likes Gabbard. But, again, I’m TIRED and want you all to do my homework for me.

    Thanks in advance, and I will donate to the local Humane Society* in appreciation of your efforts.

     

    * I would have done this anyway, but hey, know your audience.

  73. 73.

    trollhattan

    November 21, 2019 at 8:18 pm

    @J R in WV:

    Give that dog ALL the treats!

  74. 74.

    Bobby Thomson

    November 21, 2019 at 8:19 pm

    @jk: Is Tweety asking him about his recent cancelled HBU visit where exactly zero students showed up?

  75. 75.

    Mnemosyne

    November 21, 2019 at 8:31 pm

    @Sloane Ranger:

     

    Keep in mind that the US military is often VERY paranoid about letting active service members get directly involved in politics, so it’s probably more that she was trying to shield him from the political taint that was emanating from the whole Ukraine thing.

  76. 76.

    O. Felix Culpa

    November 21, 2019 at 8:37 pm

    @Sloane Ranger: Here’s Wonkette’s version of Hill’s testimony on Vindman, which pretty much captures it:

    1:41: CASTOR: You told Tim Morrison that you had “concerns” about Lt. Col. Vindman.

    HILL: That is not what I said and I am shocked Tim Morrison fucking said that, what a fucking dick, everybody can see that he’s a fucking dick. It was a damn personnel review, just to get him up to speed since he was taking my job. I said I was concerned about the direction of Ukraine policy. Vindman is brilliant and great. My only concern was that he might not be suited for a job that was more political. I did not question his judgement. I did not question his expertise. He is excellent on Ukraine and Russia and all the other issues. You all should eat a bowl of shit.

  77. 77.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2019 at 8:40 pm

    Interesting question.

    George Soros is 89. Do the right wing anti-semites have an heir in mind to blame everything on? Have they done responsible hate planning?— Schooley (@Rschooley) November 22, 2019

  78. 78.

    Mnemosyne

    November 21, 2019 at 8:43 pm

    @Mary G:

     

    I suspect based on no actual knowledge that Schiff is DiFi’s preferred successor to her Senate seat, but she didn’t want to retire and have him run for it with an impeachment looming. Just a vibe, not any actual knowledge.

  79. 79.

    jk

    November 21, 2019 at 8:47 pm

    @Bobby Thomson:

     

    Matthews gave Patrick a pass on that incident.  In spite of the show’s title Hardball, the interview was actually Softball.

  80. 80.

    jc

    November 21, 2019 at 8:48 pm

    @jharp: I love that you can tell Schiff is really pissed off when he says this.

  81. 81.

    tobie

    November 21, 2019 at 8:50 pm

    Question for the legal minds here: if the judge on Monday says the administration cannot prevent Don McGahn from testifying before the House Judiciary Committee, could the Intelligence Committee also go ahead and subpoena John Bolton? I assume the White House tried to stop Fiona Hill from testifying but she ignored their directive. Presumably Bolton could do the same if he wanted to come clean. (Big if there.)

  82. 82.

    Ken

    November 21, 2019 at 8:54 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Also remember the fundamental problem that it’s hard to compile the articles of impeachment when Trump keeps committing crimes.  I suppose eventually he’ll repeat himself, or maybe they can just group them by rings of Dante’s Inferno or some such scheme.

  83. 83.

    Mary Ellen Sandahl

    November 21, 2019 at 8:57 pm

    @Princess:
    No, you’re not.
    In former times, well aware that Barney Frank is gay, I used to refer to him as one of the Real Men in Congress. From the hetero female POV, at least if you’ve been around for a while and have a couple brain cells to rub together, a man’s inherent dignity and integrity of character are sine qua nons for proving him Real.
    Or as Madam Secretary once lovingly observed to her husband, “Mmm, a man with firm moral principles… big turn-on.”

  84. 84.

    zhena gogolia

    November 21, 2019 at 9:00 pm

    Great phone call was made to CSpan today:

     

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1197573672313200640

  85. 85.

    trollhattan

    November 21, 2019 at 9:01 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    DiFi announced she was running again two years and a month ago, so I doubt Schiff played into the calculation (we had yet to take back the House).

    Does not mean he would not be her choice as successor. I could also envision him as Warren’s AG.

  86. 86.

    dimmsdale

    November 21, 2019 at 9:01 pm

    @Yarrow: I agree; this is what I came up with (another Schiff, fer Pete sake): https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0771493/

  87. 87.

    Zinsky

    November 21, 2019 at 9:06 pm

    As I told my adult kids today, in a sane world, Trump would be cleaning out his desk and polishing up his resignation letter right now.

  88. 88.

    jk

    November 21, 2019 at 9:07 pm

    Amy Siskind  @Amy_Siskind

    Maria Yovanovitch’s and Fiona Hill’s unflappable competence and patriotism is like a commercial for having a woman president in 2020.

    h/t https://twitter.com/Amy_Siskind/status/1197599588657639424

  89. 89.

    jk

    November 21, 2019 at 9:10 pm

    @Zinsky:

     

    in a sane world, Trump would be

    In a sane world Trump would be living in the lock down unit of a psych ward.

  90. 90.

    trollhattan

    November 21, 2019 at 9:10 pm

    @jk:

    Unpossible to argue. Funny, how I really, really believed we were headed there three years ago.

    Three. Long. Years.

  91. 91.

    J R in WV

    November 21, 2019 at 9:11 pm

    @trollhattan:

     

    @J R in WV:

    Give that dog ALL the treats!

    Oh, yes! She is beautiful, affectionate, silky, as if she just came from the salon, even though she isn’t just from the salon. Named Indica, even tho my cousin isn’t inclined to that herb… He says “She’s my medicine!”

     

    White and blonde, so sweet…

  92. 92.

    Patricia Kayden

    November 21, 2019 at 9:13 pm

    I was an Ambassador and I had worked for Pres Obama for years, but at no time could I have ever picked up my cellphone, called the White House unannounced and gotten the President on the phone. The “deep state” would never have allowed it and I’m grateful for that.— Rufus Gifford (@rufusgifford) November 21, 2019

  93. 93.

    trollhattan

    November 21, 2019 at 9:14 pm

    @J R in WV:

    We love them unreservedly just the way they are, and then they go and do the Hero Mode thing. How do you repay that? Treats and walkies, walkies and treats. Just like before.

    Circle of life. Or is it tau of dog?

  94. 94.

    trollhattan

    November 21, 2019 at 9:16 pm

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Heh. Deep State, or Deep Fat Fryer? One of these is a useful tool, and one is the invention of tools.

  95. 95.

    hilts

    November 21, 2019 at 9:17 pm

    @Yarrow:

     

    I’ve heard different things but I’ll ask here again in case someone has heard a definitive answer. Are there more open hearings? I wouldn’t expect any next week because of Thanksgiving but maybe after that?

    Every news report I’ve seen said that, barring a last minute change of heart from Bolton or some other big fish, today was the final day of open public hearings.  I’m already having withdrawal symptoms.  In spite of the shit show buffoonery that the Republicans engaged in, I found these hearings electrifying and exhilarating

  96. 96.

    Martin

    November 21, 2019 at 9:20 pm

    @tobie: Should be. It’s the same executive privilege argument. The only reason Bolton doesn’t want to testify is that spilling in public undermines his book sales.

     

    But this will get tossed to USSC, so Monday hardly resolves it.

  97. 97.

    sdhays

    November 21, 2019 at 9:21 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: Maybe he’ll continue to orchestrate nefarious plots like strengthening public education from the grave….

  98. 98.

    hilts

    November 21, 2019 at 9:23 pm

    @Yarrow:

     

    Personally, I’d like Rudy Giuliani testify to see how batshit crazy he could be and I’d like Rick Perry testify to see his Ralph Kramden dear caught in the headlights impersonation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK9odsWwfIo

  99. 99.

    Tenar Darell

    November 21, 2019 at 9:28 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: NB it has to be a Jewish person who’s extremely rich, likely American, supporting civil society organizations with big $, so that way Putin or another dictator can sustain a worldwide conspiracy theory around them & their work. (IMHO Zuckerberg really would be an obvious replacement bc he’s young & fits most of that, but he’s such an obvious asset for most authoritarian governments, I can’t see him getting tagged. Well, unless he gets serious about reforming his monstrous creation & gets significantly more charitable with his $).

  100. 100.

    hilts

    November 21, 2019 at 9:39 pm

    @tobie:

    I second all your comments about Adam Schiff.  He’s a total class act who exudes gravitas in all of his public appearances and I love his speaking voice.

  101. 101.

    Jeffro

    November 21, 2019 at 9:41 pm

    @Mary G:

    I’m in favor of taking as long as it takes, like Charley.

     

    Me too.  The odds of Twitler “going to Walter Reed for the next portion of his physical” go up with each week that this continues…and there’s certainly no shortage of crimes to investigate.

  102. 102.

    Jeffro

    November 21, 2019 at 9:45 pm

    @Sebastian: Ukraine is the lynchpin of everything Russia. There is a direct line from this to changing the RNC platform.

     

    It’s funny…that was the very thing that moved me from previously *thinking* he was a Russia-sympathizer to *knowing* he/his campaign were actively working with Russia

  103. 103.

    tobie

    November 21, 2019 at 9:46 pm

    @Martin: Thanks for giving some sense of the timeline. I personally think the House should hold off the vote on impeachment until it has dotted its i’s and crossed its t’s because I don’t think we can begin to anticipate how ugly the trial in the Senate is going to be. Lindsey Graham says he’s going to call up Adam Schiff to testify. And The Post says he’s already sent a letter to State requesting oodles of info on the Bidens:

    Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey O. Graham sent a letter to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo on Thursday requesting documents related to former vice president Joe Biden and his communications with Ukrainian officials, a step seen as a GOP effort to counter the House impeachment investigation of President Trump.

  104. 104.

    Jeffro

    November 21, 2019 at 9:48 pm

    @jk: Let’s not forget Sally Yates, too!

  105. 105.

    Jeffro

    November 21, 2019 at 9:49 pm

    @tobie: Lindsey Graham says he’s going to call up Adam Schiff to testify.

     

    Say what??

     

    Well, then clearly we need to hold off on ending the impeachment inquiry until Lindsey comes and testifies before Adam Schiff(!?)

     

    These guys really are determined to burn it all, ALL, down.  Just think of how guilty they must be, the things they’re still hiding.  Wow.

  106. 106.

    Steeplejack

    November 21, 2019 at 9:55 pm

    @J R in WV:

    You must be living right!

  107. 107.

    hilts

    November 21, 2019 at 10:00 pm

    @Jeffro:

     

    Yes, I totally agree with you about Sally Yates.

     

    Lindsey Graham is a bed wetting lunatic who belongs in a straitjacket.

  108. 108.

    Ruckus

    November 21, 2019 at 10:01 pm

    @debbie:

    That’s a step somewhere for the cow man.

    Bully is not his strong suit. His strong suit is asshole.

  109. 109.

    tobie

    November 21, 2019 at 10:05 pm

    @Jeffro: He said this last week on Hannity’s show as reported in the infamous Hill. And several

    Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said on Wednesday that House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) should be a witness in the Senate’s impeachment trial.
    Graham was asked during an interview with Fox News’s Sean Hannity if senators would try to call Schiff, his staff, the whistleblower or Hunter Biden as part of an impeachment trial.

    Several House members intimated as much today. They don’t care if they destroy all governmental institutions. Holding on to power is everything for these guys. That’s what makes them fascists.

     

    Meanwhile, word’s leaked that IG Horowitz has found that someone altered something in a FISA warrant application in 2016. It must be picayune because the person who made the change, whatever it is, is not a high-ranking official. Still Horowitz always provides some fodder for the right while ignoring big issues like leaks from the New York office of the FBI. I hate this guy. Aaargh…I’m hating lots of figures these days.

  110. 110.

    OGLiberal

    November 21, 2019 at 10:05 pm

    @West of the Rockies: As I noted in a previous thread, the Trumpers I know are convinced that the Clintons, especially Hillary, murdered people.  They have no doubt…it is a fact, in their minds…not just a person, multiple people offed.  These are not uneducated trailer folks (hey, I have a trailer…and in PA).  This is their reality.  Most of the most vocal are white women.  Half are nutty Christians who would throw their son out of the house if he acted like Trump.

  111. 111.

    laura

    November 21, 2019 at 10:05 pm

    @J R in WV: JRinWV, the totality of good news  – and the feeling younger when the 16 tons of woe and uncertainty are lifted suddenly and all on a day like today- well I hope you enjoy that champagne with your not deads and can revisit the shared past with photos. I feel better just reading it so thank you for putting this bit of joyfulness and sense of optimism.

  112. 112.

    tobie

    November 21, 2019 at 10:07 pm

    @Jeffro: I replied but the comment got eaten. A week ago in the Hill, Graham said that he’s call Schiff to testify. Several of Republican House members echoed the idea today. I hate them all.

    Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said on Wednesday that House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) should be a witness in the Senate’s impeachment trial.
    Graham was asked during an interview with Fox News’s Sean Hannity if senators would try to call Schiff, his staff, the whistleblower or Hunter Biden as part of an impeachment trial.

  113. 113.

    Jay

    November 21, 2019 at 10:08 pm

    OANN is a US-based Kremlin mouthpiece that frequently publishes Russian propaganda.It's reprehensible but very on-brand that two OANN employees are trying to use anti-immigrant bigotry to attack the Ukraine/Russia experts who debunked the GOP's pro-Russia conspiracy theories. pic.twitter.com/g3V6uMADNn— Caroline Orr (@RVAwonk) November 21, 2019

  114. 114.

    Ruckus

    November 21, 2019 at 10:09 pm

    @Jeffro:

    They are cornered rats on a sinking ship and they are very well aware of it.

  115. 115.

    Wag

    November 21, 2019 at 10:15 pm

    @trollhattan:

     

    if this accent is peculiar to you, then you owe it to yourself to travel through the northeast of England. A land of warm hearted people who aren’t afraid to speak their minds.  Plus the scenery is beautiful and the beer is properly warm.

  116. 116.

    Jeffro

    November 21, 2019 at 10:16 pm

    @tobie: You know…now that I think about it, Schiff would probably eat them alive.  I withdraw my objection, Republicans, please proceed!

     

    Not that there’s a ton of room for movement in the Fox-hardened base, but the GOP is surely continuing to drive independents to our side and is driving Dem turnout through the roof with this insanity.  The past three elections (2017, 2018, 2019) have shown this to be the case, and they just keep doubling/tripling/quadmillioning down. I hate to see it, but maybe it’s the only way – just let them destroy themselves.

  117. 117.

    trollhattan

    November 21, 2019 at 10:19 pm

    @Wag:

    and the beer is properly warm.

    Lucas fridges? ;-)
    Sounds like heaven, truth be told. I hope to hike north England and Scotland someday. Smitten by the topography and have no doubt the people are lovely and engaging.

  118. 118.

    tobie

    November 21, 2019 at 10:24 pm

    @Jeffro: Yeah, seeing Graham go all lick-spittle and screaming and baring his teeth while Schiff would sit there calm, cool, and collected and reveal the ridiculousness of there questions would be something. Still, I don’t want to have to witness this. A Valium salt-lick would not be sufficient to calm my nerves.

  119. 119.

    TS (the original)

    November 21, 2019 at 10:26 pm

    @tobie: Bolton wants to keep the secrets until his book is published

  120. 120.

    James E Powell

    November 21, 2019 at 10:29 pm

    @jharp:

    Some of us are but as a whole?

    I’m not so sure.

    I’m sure. As a whole, this nation is not all that good.

  121. 121.

    Jess

    November 21, 2019 at 10:40 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Cool that you apologized, but poking at things that people can’t do much to change is not cool. Although I have to admit, that I have a hard time refraining from sniggering at some people’s fashion choices…

  122. 122.

    Jay

    November 21, 2019 at 10:40 pm

    For those interested,

    Adam’s Bibi post lead me down a rabbit hole of Russian mobsters, finally ending with Thieves in Law and the Bitches War.

    Not what I expected when looking up “zek”.

    https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=miami1514232547893516&disposition=inline

  123. 123.

    Wag

    November 21, 2019 at 10:41 pm

    @trollhattan:

     

    Plus you can see firsthand how a wall across a country holds up over a couple of millennia   Hadrian built one to keep out the Scots.
    https://www.britainexpress.com/History/Hadrian%27s_Wall.htm

  124. 124.

    Jay

    November 21, 2019 at 10:54 pm

    Today Trump started sending asylum seekers to Guatemala. This is a larger part of white nationalist strategy to make it virtually impossible for people to seek asylum in this country. Trump's racist immigration policies go beyond separating kids, or ending DACA. pic.twitter.com/Yt7G1aO38Z— José Alonso Muñoz (@munozjose) November 20, 2019

  125. 125.

    TomatoQueen

    November 21, 2019 at 11:30 pm

    @trollhattan: She’s a Northern lass, originally from Bishop Auckland, 25 miles south of Newcastle, and that’s a fairly typical accent from that area. Don’t call it Scottish. Northern lasses are ‘ard as nails.

  126. 126.

    AM in NC

    November 21, 2019 at 11:56 pm

    @Yarrow: Robert Downey Jr.

  127. 127.

    Origuy

    November 22, 2019 at 1:22 am

    @Wag: I was in the area a few years ago. The wall is considerably shorter than it was originally. Many buildings in the region are made from the stones, including Lanercost Priory.

    One of the walking tours of Britain follows the wall, so you can stop at various sites, including active archaeological digs.

    I was also in Durham and York, both lovely cities worth visiting. Maybe I should dig out some of my pictures for On The Road.

  128. 128.

    WaterGirl

    November 22, 2019 at 4:18 pm

    @tobie: Your comment went into spam because you had more than the allowed number of links.  If you post a tweet with a bunch links, that goes toward the total count.

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