Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

Let there be snark.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

It’s time for the GOP to dust off that post-2012 autopsy, completely ignore it, and light the party on fire again.

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

“More of this”, i said to the dog.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Being the leader of the world means to be the leader of peace.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

Everybody saw this coming.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

You are here: Home / z-Retired Categories / Site Maintenance / Dear WaterGirl / Dear WaterGirl: When is the Best Time for Pie?

Dear WaterGirl: When is the Best Time for Pie?

by | 310 Comments

This post is in: 

Dear Watergirl,

Is it wrong to use the Pie Filter?  Does it make me a bad person?

Dear Of Course It’s Not Wrong,

Why would you even think that?   Of course it’s not wrong to use the pie filter.  There’s only so much time in a day. There’s nothing wrong with using the pie filter for commenters whose comments you don’t want to read, unless that feels wrong to you, or it goes against your principles.

Even if it goes against your principles to pie commenters that you simply don’t care for, or whose comments aren’t of interest to you, there’s absolutely no reason to feel bad about pie-ing some whose primary goal is trolling or what I call “shit-stirring”.  Use the pie filter for them!

Dear WaterGirl,

I tried the pie filter, just for a minute, so I could see the pie images and the quotes.  Now I’m hooked, and I’m tempted to use the pie filter just for fun.

Dear Oh My Goodness, Please Don’t Worry about That!

I mean, seriously, have you seen CatCake?  Who could resist CatCake?  Or the dessert-related quotes… I spent a lot of time looking for the quotes and those images!  Just think of using the pie filter as a kindness, so I know they are appreciated.

If that’s not enough to help you feel good about it, think about John.  He paid good money for the pie filter programming.  With updates!  You now have a choice of images, quotes, or nothing, plus it’s super easy to pie, and to un-pie, and to change the settings.  And if you’re up for a really bold move, you can use the pie filter just because it’s a day ending in ‘Y’!

Dear WaterGirl,

I know i shouldn’t engage with trolls, and I tell myself I won’t make that mistake the next time; I will just ignore them!  But then I do it anyway.  I get pulled in, thinking that I can change their mind, or that it’s important to refute what they say, so it doesn’t just hang there like the lie they just said is true.  I’m doing a service for all of us, and that’s a good thing, right?

Dear I’m Really Sorry to Have to be the One to Tell You,

We all understand the instinct, but engaging isn’t helpful.  It just encourages them, and derails the threads.  The pie filter can help!  You can pie the shit-stirrers and trolls, and reduce the temptation to engage with them.  Plus, it will save you money on meds, because it will help keep your blood pressure down!  Then you can treat yourself to some real live dessert, just for being so good!

Dear WaterGirl,

Some of the regular commenters don’t seem to be posting anymore.  It makes me sad and I feel so frustrated, isn’t there anything I can do?

Dear That Bothers Me Too,

I wish I had a better answer, but the only thing I know how to do is to make sure that I’m not personally involved in turning what would otherwise be a good thread into a steaming pile of you-know-what, or scorched earth.  At Balloon Juice, we are not the enemy. Well, except for the people who are here to stir shit and sow discord.  As far as I’m concerned, we owe nothing to those people; they are not actually part of the BJ community.

What I know is that we have to preserve our collective sanity for the Big Fight of 2020: Saving Our Democracy.  Like it or not, that’s the fight we are in,.  One part of that fight is making sure we’re not driving good people away with our infighting.  One tiny part of that can be using the pie filter, if that’s what it takes to not get sucked into the vortex of people who are on Balloon Juice – not for the politics and pets and food and garden chats or to share our favorite mysteries – but to do harm.

I don’t know that we have to Be Best.  But I do think we need to Be Smart.

***

Discuss:

What has the pie filter done for you lately?

Why is the pie filter worse than Satan?

Why you love CatCake almost as much as I do.

Dear WaterGirl: Did You Know That...

 

Reader Interactions

310Comments

  5. 5.

    zhena gogolia

    @Baud: 
    You always go right to the heart of the matter.
    I have never used the pie filter, mainly because I don’t understand how it works.

  8. 8.

    West of the Rockies

    I’ve yet to pie anyone in the 10-ish years I’ve been here, but have been tempted.  We had one person who was not a troll but who had a verrry precious writing style that pissed off a lot of people.  Have not seen her/him in months now.

  9. 9.

    West of the Rockies

    @Baud:

    Dude… Brutal.

    Actually though, there was a stretch where Cole kept posting feet selfies that creeped me out a bit.

  11. 11.

    WaterGirl

    @West of the Rockies: I believe you might be referring to Ola Azul?  He has been banned.

    This isn’t 2002 anymore, it’s 2020, and with the deliberate disinformation campaigns swirling all around us, it’s a different game than it when there were individuals who liked to troll Balloon Juice.

    So the pie filter becomes more important, I think.  A way to not have BJ turn into DKOS because we allow people to get us to turn on each other.

  15. 15.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: I was not the banner; it was Cole approved in early December.

    I do know that he came back day after day, with a different email address or a different IP address, which does make it seem that perhaps he was not a regular commenter.

  16. 16.

    divF

    I used the new pie filter on the on the Litany-troll a few threads down. I like it – nice font for the quotes, plus attributions. Not to mention that it eliminates the troll.

    Are you still taking contributions for pie-filter quotes ?

  18. 18.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: No it was not!  I came down with something and it completely fell out of my head!

    If you will forgive my rudeness, I will pick that up again this week.

    Unless this came up in the Pie Filter thread because you are going to pie me in retaliation?  Oh no!

  20. 20.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @WaterGirl:

    A way to not have BJ turn into DKOS because we allow people to get us to turn on each other.

    As a three-digit UserID, I must protest; if you consult the FAQs, you will find that I am right. Have a donut. First? Frist? Fitzmas?

  21. 21.

    WaterGirl

    @divF: I would the suggestions pie filter quotes, absolutely!

    Technically speaking, it is now the dessert filter because I went with dessert images and dessert quotes, rather than limiting to pie.

  22. 22.

    sdhays

    Thank you, Watergirl, but I have to admit that when I first saw the title fo this post, my immediate thought was “Seriously? When is it NOT the best time for pie?” And then I realized that the post was not actually about pie and pie recipes. And I was sad. :-(

  25. 25.

    West of the Rockies

    @sab:

    I don’t recall the person’s name.  Here’s a vague impression of what I’m talking about:  “Lossa people proly haves the itchies o’er soshulism but my thinkies are pert generous.”

  27. 27.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @WaterGirl: common phrases from D-Kos back in the day. I can’t remember the last time I looked at it, haven’t commented in probably over a decade now.

    @West of the Rockies: if I had a drink, i would do a spit-take right now

  31. 31.

    MobiusKlein

    What happens if I Pie myself?

     

    Answer: pie under my name.

    Also, I can still edit my comment!

  32. 32.

    WaterGirl

    Any questions about the pie filter?  Anyone using it?  Anyone have other ideas about how not to let threads turn into a shit show?

  34. 34.

    MazeDancer

    You can self-pie. Or go r an ancient thread and pie and un-pie everyone.

    That way you’re not actually pieing anyone, you just want to see all of WaterGirl’s hard work

  43. 43.

    Immanentize

    Ola Azul has been back in some morning threads.  More on point, less fake.

    I vote to let him be with us.

  44. 44.

    Barbara

    @West of the Rockies: I only pie those I feel are personally insulting, mostly so I can cool off and not engage in ways that make me more upset.  I love the toggle feature as well, so I can read responses or see if someone has toned it down.  I am not sure whether I have said or not, but I love the new site. Well done!

  48. 48.

    A Ghost To Most

    Poltroon pie, where the jackals hide. I haven’t seen the brave guy around lately. Figures.

  49. 49.

    oldgold

    Ola Azul was a well needed breath of  fresh air.  Banned? Ridiculous.

    His writing style was different. So what? At least he usually had something interesting to add to the conversation.

  52. 52.

    West of the Rockies

    @raven:

    I never advocated for a ban, but I do recall a number of people getting irked by that person’s comments.  I just started scanning over them; the writing took too much effort to bother with.  YMMV.

  54. 54.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @West of the Rockies: yeah, I tend to just scroll by people who annoy me, but with the approaching election, old friends and new seem to be coming in to stir shit, I think I may just start using the filter

  56. 56.

    Barbara

    @Immanentize: I just skate right over his, ummm, idiosyncratic style, which probably takes more effort than by the book English.  Flannery O’Connor’s editor had to break the news to her that Southern twang dialogue was okay, but Southern twang narration was not, in the novella known as Wise Blood, “where the lame don’t walk, the blind don’t see and things that are dead stay that way.”

  58. 58.

    raven

    @West of the Rockies: Well, fuck anyone who “advocated” it. The whole point of this vaunted pie filter is to take care of shit like that.  I see getting banned from FDL as a badge of honor and maybe he see’s this the same way.

  59. 59.

    Immanentize

    @oldgold: His writing style was, well, variable. Sometimes there was authentic frontier gibberish.  Other times he wrote masters level arguments.  Certainly his authenticity is suspect….

    But he never added a “fuck you” to any comment like a certain FB does every time. So, let the guy try?

    I can’t convince anyone he wasn’t annoying. But he was never harmful.

  60. 60.

    West of the Rockies

    @dexwood:

    I have been WotR for a long time, but since Art Bell retired, unretired, re-retired, re-unretired, and died, maybe I should change monikers.

  63. 63.

    WaterGirl

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, we are getting a lot more, it seems, and it will only get worse.

    After some pretty awful threads this past week, I thought it might be good to mention the pie filter and see if people have any questions or concerns about it.

  72. 72.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud:  thanks.  Got strep at christmas while at my niece’s house, then home, finished my antibiotics for the strep, still felt puny, 2 days later I caught a virus, have been fighting that.  then I got laryngitis!

    I never get sick, so this is very unusual for me.  Lots of people are more sick than I am, and at least I don’t have the flu!

  81. 81.

    Barbara

    @West of the Rockies: FireDog Lake.  Home of the diehard PUMA Jane Hamsher.  I am so grateful my mother never found her.  She was okay on so many things, but lost her mind when it came to Obama.

  87. 87.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: If they get a time out, and they provided a working email for Balloon Juice, they can be contacted by email.

    Also, some people try again periodically to see if they can get in.

  90. 90.

    WaterGirl

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Nope, no way to know if you’ve been pied.  Even if someone never answers anything to write on BJ, there’s no way to know whether they are skipping over you, have pied you, or just don’t care enough to respond.

  92. 92.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: Do not be conjuring up the 502/503/524 errors!  It has now been 6 days, but who’s counting?

    I believe we’ve got that fixed, but I am not gonna call it FIXED until we get to 14 days.  And I’m only whispering this comment, so I hope just saying that out loud doesn’t make everything turn to shit.

  97. 97.

    Mike J

    I wonder if WP still eats comments that mention the nym of banned people, like it used to do if you tried typing Uncle Clarence Thomas.

  98. 98.

    WaterGirl

    @Mike J: I don’t have that set up with a URL.  The quickest way to see them would be to go to an old thread and pie a bunch of people.

    I didn’t feel right about using any of Cleek’s phrases, so we went with all new.

  99. 99.

    Immanentize

    @dexwood: My friend! my grandparents and their family — farmers including dairy — ate pie every meal but supper, I thought.

    Chicken, mincemeat, turkey, apple mince, etc. PIE!

  102. 102.

    oldgold

    For a number of years FDL was excellent.

    Eventually, Calamity Jane destroyed the blog she had created.

  104. 104.

    sab

    @Immanentize: I deleted my comment above and now wish I hadn’t.

    I found him initially annoying. He was hard to follow and hard to scroll past because his comments were so long. I pied him for a while, but since you interacted with him so much I decided to unpie him.

    I really grew to like his comments.

  105. 105.

    Baud

    @oldgold:

    I was a DKOS person, which was a comfort during the Bush years, but went to pot when Obama took office. I left after the 2010 election. Never looked back.

  107. 107.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: If you are referring to Ola Azul, I think he does care.  He posted a comment asking that someone get in touch with him to explain why he can’t post.  I passed his email address on to Cole.

  110. 110.

    Barbara

    @surfk9: In spite of myself, I gravitate to dkos for election related information.  I just don’t read comments any longer.  Comments are not necessarily an asset.

  111. 111.

    surfk9

    @WaterGirl:

    I started reading KOS in the early 2000’s. I actually still read the front page stuff. The comments, no way.

    BTW- can you take me out of moderation, I promise I won’t bite!

  112. 112.

    Immanentize

    @oldgold: give Jane a break.  She was a cancer patient, trying to just get through life.  It did make her kinda crazy, but guess what?  That happens.  Life seems clearer even if it is clearly wrong.  And she loves/d  her pups.

    She provided a good place to rage for a good while. Then, she didn’t.

  117. 117.

    West of the Rockies

    @raven:

    Your Paradise friend land on his feet?  My junior high US History teacher lost his home and ended up moving across the street from me.  Hadn’t seen him in 43 years, so that was a nice reconnect (despite the unfortunate circumstances).

  125. 125.

    raven

    @West of the Rockies: Yea, they are rebuilding now. They were fully insured so made out better than many. They were provided with a Mercedes RV and did a good bit of touring while things got sorted.

  126. 126.

    HalfAssedHomesteader

    I love the Dear Watergirl format! It would be fun to see it used for political topics if you’re inclined.

  127. 127.

    Immanentize

    @sab: That is very kind and sweet.  That is sorta how I operate.  I never pie anyone, but I scroll past often.  But I try not to dismiss the intersting who are not mean.

  129. 129.

    WaterGirl

    @surfk9: Oh!  You get a 5-minute edit window on each comment, and if you edit the comment, the 5-minute edit window starts again.

  134. 134.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: I am so glad to hear that. These are the folks that were driving separately, then left one car so they could meet their (likely) end together, with the fires?

    That has kind of haunted me. I am so glad to know they are well.

  144. 144.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: No, you never mentioned that.  I have it open in a new window to read it later when I’m not trying to do two things at once.  thanks.

  145. 145.

    Kattails

    @WaterGirl: I have no idea whatsoever how to use it, although I threatened to do so in a thread a few minutes ago.  I don’t understand what it does. I probably wouldn’t use it unless it was someone who was just endlessly hijacking a thread for their own platform, which is what was happening. But so many comments referred back to what this idiot was saying, you’d lose half the thread(?)

    How to keep things from turning into a shit show w/o the filter–perhaps put up a flag somehow, if several people see the thread going off the rails, a front-pager could block it? Don’t know how that would work easily and cheaply. Maybe a crossed-swords icon, or skull and crossbones, (pirate attack).☠️ Or I see little Draculas, sucking the blood out of the thread ?‍♂️ Ooh there are skin tone color offerings but I’ll stick with white for this one. ?give the boot; ⛑ help needed;?crashing “boar”.

  149. 149.

    2liberal

    I like the new pie filter, spoken as  someone who often mentioned this feature during the planning of the new website.

  152. 152.

    raven

    @WaterGirl: You’re kidding, right? People spent hours arguing with the dude all afternoon today. I assume it was the whole reason for this post.

  154. 154.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @WaterGirl:

    What did Ola Azul get banned for? His dialect was blackboard-scratchingly awful, but I don’t remember anything ban-worthy.

  155. 155.

    WaterGirl

    @Kattails: Here’s the short answer about what the pie filter does.

    If I had you pied,, for instance, instead of seeing what you wrote at #145, I would see an image of a pie, or a piece of cake, or cupcake, cheesecake, etc.  If I chose the other setting, I would see a quotation about something dessert-related.

    There would also be a button that says “Toggle”. If I click that, I could actually see what you had written.  Then Toggle again would hide your comment and I would see the image.

    It also “PIES” replies to people who are pied, so if Raven replied to you when I had you pied, I would also see pie images for Raven, but I could use the Toggle button if I wanted, in order to see what he had written.

  157. 157.

    Immanentize

    @Baud: There was another picture poster.  A guy.  Also disparu.  I loved those posts.  I was at Mile High when Obama gave his acceptance speech.  Most moving moment if my life.

    So far.

  159. 159.

    WaterGirl

    @Kattails: Here’s what you do to pie someone:

    You click on the cherry tart that has the word “Filter” right under it. It’s just below the original post and just above the circle that shows the number of comments.

    Click on that, and you are in the pie filter.  It defaults to show images rather than the quotes (or nothing, which is the third option).

    There are 3 tabs – one lets you add people to the pie filter, one lets you choose between images and quotes, etc, and one lets you un-pie someone you already have pied.

    That should get you started – please let me know i you have any questions.

  160. 160.

    Barbara

    @Steeplejack (phone): I recall that he pushed back hard at requests for less intentionally ungrammatical writing.  I just skipped it.  Writing is for communicating with others.  Intentionally making it difficult is a kind of solipsism.

  161. 161.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: No one every complains about you raven.  A person has to be pretty disruptive, intentionally, for banning to even be discussed, let alone approved.

  164. 164.

    Kattails

    @Immanentize: The thing you can, but not always do, get out of it is a lot of interesting information in the push-backs, if you don’t mind wearing waders to get through things sometimes.

  165. 165.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: It was, but I tuned out as soon as it turned into a shit show.  I just have no tolerance for that.

    And yes, that was part of what prompted the post.  The other part is that when I left John know that people are distressed about commenter X, john says “Tell them to use the damn pie filter; I paid for the developers to program it!”

  175. 175.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud:

    Hillary Clinton: The most exonerated politician ever

    By

    Jennifer Rubin
    I swear of all the never-trumpers, I think Rubin and Nicolle Wallace are neck and neck for never going back. They both seem to be pro-choice and concerned about climate change, but, as ever, what the fuck do I know.

  176. 176.

    WaterGirl

    @Kattails: I have actually been thinking that when I see someone continually shit-stirring, that I might post one of the pie filter images in a reply to that person.

    I thought that might clue people in that maybe engaging with that person perhaps isn’t the best use of their time, aka they are contributing to the stinking up of what would otherwise be a perfectly good thread.

    Question for everyone: would that help?

  178. 178.

    Felanius Kootea

    @Felanius Kootea: Oh my God I pied myself and it was awesome!  I also pied Litany just to test the pie filter and it had cool pie images for all the responses to him/her but I felt guilty and unpied him/her so now I only have myself in the pie filter.

  183. 183.

    Immanentize

    @WaterGirl: I think (hope) that sometimes when posts go off the rails in the comments, there aopears a new post that gives the fired up a new opportunity to be productive. To comment about things other than other commenters. But today, the MM thread was just like penance.

  184. 184.

    WaterGirl

    @Kattails: It would mostly be self-preservation, because if i’m participating in a thread it’s no fun when they turn to shit.  I’m not suggesting that i would try to monitor all threads all the time.

  187. 187.

    WaterGirl

    @Immanentize: I was thinking about quietly putting up an Open Thread (if no one else has) as soon as a thread starts to go bad with people engaging when it’s totally unproductive.  Figuring that then the people who aren’t enjoying the shit show have a place to bail to.

  189. 189.

    WaterGirl

    @Felanius Kootea: Were you by any chance raised catholic?  I don’t know why you would feel guilty when it’s the other guy who is actively trying to derail other conversation and you are just say “I’ll take a pass on that” by using the pie filter.

  190. 190.

    Immanentize

    @opiejeanne: I commented about this days ago.  I have a colleague who emails.  Long emails in sadness more than anger.  But every one of his missives includes a completely unnecessary F.U. an opportunity to.explain how an individual — or everyone else — is an ass. That is what I was referring to.

  196. 196.

    Barbara

    @Steeplejack (phone): Only when the style seems to be intended to serve like bricks placed in such a way along a path so you are either likely to trip and hurt yourself or take three times as long to get anywhere.

  197. 197.

    Immanentize

    @raven: Ha ha !!  That is cracking me up.

    I know you well enough, I hope, that you would just say, “Fuck You!”

    Which would make me smile.

  205. 205.

    Immanentize

    @WaterGirl: Me too.  But it hides some gems.  I have no idea why he does it.  It seems he is in Michigan now?  Maybe?  But it was really unnecessary unless he was hiding his actual ID.

  207. 207.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: It did not.  I agree with Imm.

    It’s an affectation at best, and a fabrication at worst. But you connect with him, and that’s great, very happy to help facilitate that.

    As my dad used to say, it takes all kinds.

  209. 209.

    Immanentize

    @WaterGirl: Actually, like Thin Black Duke tries to say — you can choose to step back! — that might be ideal.

    But sometimes one hasta mix it up.  If only to feel getting knocked down

  211. 211.

    Amir Khalid

    @Barbara:

    ola azul’s (all lower case) hard pushback on critics of his Huckleberry Finn affectation could and often did cross the line into verbal abuse.

  213. 213.

    Cheryl Rofer

    I am a bit amused because one of our trolls has managed to turn this thread largely to himself, even in his absence.
    The threads Ola Azul participated in all too often turned to shitshows between the people to whom his patois was like fingernails on a chalkboard and those who felt he was saying something in between all the nonsense. He cultivated friends to make sure there would be two factions. Typical troll behavior.
    As Watergirl noted upthread, he’s tried to get back in by jiggering his IP and other information. Typical troll behavior.
    It’s clear that the patois was fake; he often slipped out of it. When I see one element of fakery, I have to ask what else is fake.

  217. 217.

    WaterGirl

    @Felanius Kootea: Just reread my reply to you and I don’t think it came off quite as intended.  My “catholic” comment was because I was raised catholic, so it’s easy for me to feel guilty.  And the second part wasn’t intended as criticism or judgment, in case it came off that way.

    I truly don’t understand feeling guilty about that, so I was trying to ask why but it didn’t come off that way on my second read.

  219. 219.

    Immanentize

    @raven: Sitka too not long ago.

    Somehow he always makes me think of Pressig’s second novel, Lila. Sad but meaningful.

  221. 221.

    raven

    @Cheryl Rofer: Listen, I really respect your work here and I rarely comment because they are well out of my lane. I’ve been “participating” here for more than a decade and I don’t know what gives you the right to decide on who is, and who isn’t, a troll. I’m going to bed so don’t bother with a reply but I think this is bullshit.

  223. 223.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @raven: If it walks like a troll and quacks like a troll, it’s a troll in my book. In other words, I don’t care why a person does what they do. The result is what is important.

    And this is why it’s a good idea not to discuss who’s been banned.

  224. 224.

    Immanentize

    @WaterGirl: maybe it was the man, himself, MM.  Is it possible Litany is a MM sock puppet!? I considered that for a bit, but there wasn’t enough self righteous FU in Litany’s comments.

  225. 225.

    Procopius

    @WaterGirl: I have questions about using it. I think I’ve asked before for a tutorial. Maybe you’ve already done one. What is it? What is it supposed to be used for? Does it only ban comments from showing up on my browser? Can it ban textual phrases? Is it like a kill filter used to be on Usenet? OK, I see in this post that it’s somehow supposed to hide trolls, but I really need a clearer explanation.

  226. 226.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: I didn’t recognize any of the places he listed in the email,  I guessed it might be florida but I really had no idea so didn’t want to say.

  227. 227.

    Immanentize

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    And this is why it’s a good idea not to discuss who’s been banned.

    Did Pompeo stop in for a comment? Esper? Maybe Graham. Or Rep. Collins? Someone should check if BJ has been hacked!!!!!

    Putin is everywhere…. Woooooo.

  228. 228.

    WaterGirl

    @Immanentize: I can never remember whether it was DougJ or mistermix that liked to do the trolling/sock puppet thing.  That is SO not my thing that I don’t even recall which one it was, and that was years ago.  I have no idea if whoever it was is still into that.

  229. 229.

    WaterGirl

    @Cheryl Rofer: Well, there was talk on one email chain about everyone being told who was banned, so people would know.  But yeah, I did come to regret having mentioned that earlier. :-)

  230. 230.

    WaterGirl

    @Procopius:

    Here’s the short answer about what the pie filter does.

    If I had you pied,, for instance, instead of seeing what you wrote at #145, I would see an image of a pie, or a piece of cake, or cupcake, cheesecake, etc.  If I chose the other setting, I would see a quotation about something dessert-related.

    There would also be a button that says “Toggle”. If I click that, I could actually see what you had written.  Then Toggle again would hide your comment and I would see the image.

    It also “PIES” replies to people who are pied, so if Raven replied to you when I had you pied, I would also see pie images for Raven, but I could use the Toggle button if I wanted, in order to see what he had written.

  231. 231.

    WaterGirl

    @Procopius:

    Here’s what you do to pie someone:

    You click on the cherry tart that has the word “Filter” right under it. It’s just below the original post and just above the circle that shows the number of comments.

    Click on that, and you are in the pie filter.  It defaults to show images rather than the quotes (or nothing, which is the third option).

    There are 3 tabs – one lets you add people to the pie filter, one lets you choose between images and quotes, etc, and one lets you un-pie someone you already have pied.

    That should get you started – please let me know i you have any questions.

  232. 232.

    WaterGirl

    @Procopius: If you add someone to the pie filter, then you don’t see their comments, but anyone who hasn’t pied that person still sees them.

    Let me know if you have any questions once you read the two quick replies I just posted above.

  234. 234.

    WaterGirl

    @Immanentize: Actually, I had liked his line so much that I wrote it down earlier:

    Remember folks, you don’t have to go to every argument you’re invited to, especially when the other guy has already made up his mind.

  238. 238.

    Amir Khalid

    Life is too short to be wasted dealing with arseholery, so I don’t disapprove of pieing, nor did I feel guilty the one time I (briefly) did it in earnest. But when I test-pied a few innocent people, I found the result disruptive to the thread. The quality and wit of the pie text, as good as it was, didn’t quite make up for that. So ah don’t pie fo’ks no more, ah jes’ scroll past’em.

  239. 239.

    different-church-lady

    @WaterGirl: I’ve discovered the best way to infuriate someone hellbent on having an argument is to refuse to have one.

    I’ve ended many an on-line battle with Deiter’s “I am bored with you now.”

  241. 241.

    frosty

    @WaterGirl:

    Question for everyone: would that help?

    Yes, an indication from you or a FPer that a commenter is wasting our time could be helpful. I usually don’t figure it out until around comment 200, at which point I’ve wasted a half hour.

    Or, maybe, just never read any comments on a post about primary candidates. Those are the ones that get hijacked the most.

    ETA just read Raven’s reply and he’s right, you don’t need to take on being a hall monitor.

    /emily litella/ Never mind!

  242. 242.

    tomtofa

    He was/is actually pretty good at maintaining a consistent voice; agree that it’s an irritating one. I was surprised when he dropped it in a number of comments, and wish he’d continue to communicate in that more normal way. He has some good insights and analysis.

    He seems to move around a lot, and as raven notes, is an ocean fisherman. Could this contribute to the varying IPs? Doesn’t explain the multiple emails, of course.

  244. 244.

    Splitting Image

    @WaterGirl:

    I can never remember whether it was DougJ or mistermix that liked to do the trolling/sock puppet thing. That is SO not my thing that I don’t even recall which one it was, and that was years ago. I have no idea if whoever it was is still into that.

    That was DougJ. I think he mostly gave it up when he was made a front-pager, although for a long time afterward, I always wondered if he was keeping his hand in when a new troll appeared.

  245. 245.

    Another Scott

    @Amir Khalid: I remember.

    And it’s clear in that thread that our friend is perfectly capable of writing understandable English when he wants to.

    FWIW.

    My $0.02 on the topic is that banning here should be left to Cole alone – it’s his name on the place. And banning should be the result of more than throwing around insults a few times or posting unpopular comments. And the poster should have a direct warning – like “stop derailing threads with this type of behavior” or “enough of the personal attacks” before what seems to be trolling is banned. (I’m not talking about the clearly bannable things that Cole listed in his dos-and-don’ts recently.)

    Some posters here get away with saying nasty over-the-top hurtful insults, and not in a friendly way, at the drop of a hat. And some won’t let others even try to turn over a new leaf, but bring up previous slights/attacks at every new opportunity. Others get pounced upon for posting something that might or might not be concern-trolling and the like. Yeah, we cut “family” slack, but it doesn’t lessen the pain or unfairness, it seems to me.

    The pie filter is great. If we can’t scroll on by without being baited, then we need to use it.

    Mutual admiration societies are boring.

    I’m just giving my perspective – I’m not demanding changes. It’s Cole’s house and I’m just one of the horde here.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  246. 246.

    WaterGirl

    @different-church-lady: Well, awesome is kind of broad, so I don’t even begin to know how to answer.  I am fairly patient by nature, so if it’s that that you are referring to, it was just luck of the draw, I guess!

  247. 247.

    WaterGirl

    @frosty:   I like the idea of quoting the Thin Black Duke from earlier today:

    Remember folks, you don’t have to go to every argument you’re invited to, especially when the other guy has already made up his mind.

  250. 250.

    Barbara

    @Another Scott: Mostly agree.  The equivalent of rolling one’s eyes as Uncle Tony goes off again about his latest obsession is a very useful discipline.  Nonetheless, the point of the blog is to enable a discussion and bad faith tactics can really derail things for everyone.

  251. 251.

    Jay

    @raven:

    Azul wasn’t just a Commercial Fisherman in the Pacific.

    He converted a ferrocement ketch sailboat into a West Coast troller, ( the most sustainable type of commercial fishing), “commuted” under sail power to openings, fished inside, fished outside and even did the offshore runs for skipjack tuna at times, and pretty much lived onboard from summer to winter.

  252. 252.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: Everybody gets to have their opinion, it’s what we do here.  But it’s John who ultimately makes the call on whether someone is banned or not.

  256. 256.

    Immanentize

    @frosty: The Immp told me he now says, “I’m sorry, I’m afraid I don’t speak English.”. It is such a brilliant response.

  257. 257.

    Immanentize

    @WaterGirl: Wait for second sign. Shit stirring happens….  But when it happens again, hard, like Litany today.  Then the Thin Black Duke is needed.  I wish we could just have an icon or avitar to signal the quote.

    ETA,  but only if another post is up?

  259. 259.

    TS (the original)

    @WaterGirl:  Thank you – I didn’t know how to use it either & thought I might pie someone I wanted to read. Now you have explained how to use it – so simple – I begin to wonder about losing my ability to try something.

  260. 260.

    satby

    @Cheryl Rofer: yes, and thank you. I thought he was just a ass, not a real troll, but the ever changing IPs in an attempt to circumvent getting time outs makes me wonder too. That takes more IT skill than our aw shucks jes a common man o’ da peeple blue water fella might be expected to have.

  263. 263.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Immanentize: I agree that some signal would be good, and I love the counters to argument that are being quoted.

    The problem with a signal is that there’s not always a front pager around to do it. Some of the commenters will say something, but that can lead to arguments too.

    The best we can do is for everyone to be alert to problem commenting and ignore it, hence the pie filter. But yes, it’s easy to get embroiled in real time.

  264. 264.

    StringOnAStick

    @Immanentize: I agree.  I’ve had some good conversations with ola azul; he’s led an interesting and adventurous life and had the tragedy of losing his wife too young (I think about your loss a lot and the moving things you’ve written).

    I’m from the West and a town that was small enough to have a really hick accent that I had to consciously get rid of, and being around it can let it sneak back in.  I’ve also spent time with drillers and rig hands that had damned near their own language; the same is true for some of the people I rock climbed with, so having some vernacular writing doesn’t bother me.  We commonly use current slang here, so what’s a difference in degree?  I’ve only seen Ola Azul get angry when he’s been aggressively attacked for his writing style and it’s always seemed like something the attacker could solve with the one filter rather than going scorched earth on him.  Just my opinion.

  265. 265.

    Felanius Kootea

    @WaterGirl: Nope. Raised Anglican (Episcopalian in US-speak). We don’t do guilt. My husband is Catholic though but I don’t think anything has rubbed off on me ;-).

    I started reading Balloon Juice when John was a Bush-voting Republican to get a sane perspective on views different from mine as a pretty liberal Nigerian immigrant. I decided never to use the pie filter because I came here to challenge myself. Then Terri Schiavo happened, John became a stark raving … Dem and I had nowhere to go for sane conservative perspectives.

    I’m trying hard to understand my adopted country and embrace it warts and all; I try not to use the pie filter here ever because this is my favorite blog.

  267. 267.

    satby

    @StringOnAStick: if it had been an authentic style he might not have triggered anyone, but it was inconsistent and he dropped it pretty quickly when he got the pushback he apparently was seeking. I did pie him, so I missed the last few dustups, but consider that it’s possible that his biography might have been as embellished as his writing.

  268. 268.

    Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray

    @StringOnAStick: I found the shtick really annoying too, and after commenting about it once or twice and seeing that would have no effect, I began to just skip over his comments. Easy enough to do, not sure why others find it difficult. I’m not a fan of either the pie filter or banning – hell, I engaged repeatedly with BiP, as he had an obsession with a subject area I have a particular interest in; and I can’t say I was happy with his banning.

  269. 269.

    Aleta

    @Cheryl Rofer:   I believe that your IP address changes when you move your hotspot or log in at other locations .   Is that incorrect?   At least on older routers, for those of us who connect through the phone line,  it didn’t stay the same if you disconnected for awhile, for ex. turning it off  when leaving town for awhile.  From my understanding, a changing IP address isn’t unusual for fishermen who are moving on and offshore between home and boat, etc.  I do understand that you had other reasons too.

     

    My other 2 cents is that I believe reasons for banning someone should be out in the open, so that we understand they are not subjective or in error.

  270. 270.

    StringOnAStick

    @debbie: ola Azul used different email addresses and IP’s I think because he lives in a few places or travels a lot.  I think he fishes in AK for a living but mentioned going to the Midwest for an extended period.  Maybe that’s why.

  271. 271.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Aleta: John has posted reasons for banning, and he is the final authority.

    This thread is a good example of why we should not discuss who’s been banned and why. It just causes more conflict, which is the goal of the trolls, so they win.

    ETA: The comment policy can be found at the bottom of the site, or here.

  272. 272.

    Jay

    @Aleta:

    some service providers provide a fixed IP to physical addresses. Others assign an IP when you “log in”.

    Azul mostly posted from his boat using a mobile digital service, coffee shops on the harbour fronts, free wifi at Supply stores like West Marine, Home Depot, and friends homes when travelling. He pretty much lived on his boat.

  277. 277.

    Aleta

    @Jay: That was my impression  too.

    To me OA was fooling with a writing style, for whatever reason— to me it didn’t matter why and I mostly didn’t bother reading all of it.  It wasn’t hard to skip. He was even-tempered and ignored all the criticism for quite a while.   Eventually (months iirc) he sometimes got attacked as soon as he started to comment, and sometimes, not always, got upset and attacked back.  To me that kind of derailing isn’t the work of a single ‘troll.’  (Sometimes it seems more like the work of late nights and drinks and a bad day.)

    It’s always annoyed me IRL when people try out affectations or pose or display an exaggerated version of who they are, and I have that reaction happen here too, but the internet seems to do that to people.

  278. 278.

    Cheryl Rofer

    I’m headed for bed in a bit, so a few thoughts to round out my night.

    I’m interested in group dynamics and have used some of those concepts and techniques when I was a manager and in groups I’ve been a part of. So it was a natural thing when I became a moderator on a chat board back in the 2000s to try to apply them.

    My experience is that what works in person is different from what works online, and online is harder. I still don’t feel I have the same understanding of what works online that I do for face-to-face groups.

    But I did learn that decisions about disruptive accounts can’t be made democratically. It  becomes too divisive, and it wastes time and energy. For example, when I said OA jiggered his IPs, I wasn’t just talking about having different ones at different times. And that’s all I’m going to say. We are not going to lay out the whole case. It’s done. Let it go.

    The discussions about banning are long and intensive, but they are behind the scenes. It is not something John likes to do. It’s not something anyone on this thread, for example, needs to worry about for themselves. My guidelines are the thing WaterGirl calls shit-stirring and messing around with identities.

    My objective is to protect the community and provide a good place for discussion. I’ll post more about disinformation all through this year, as the opportunity presents itself.

  279. 279.

    BellyCat

    @Another Scott:Mutual admiration societies are boring

    And these “in-groups” can all too often mob a new (or rare) commenter who ventures a perspective that might differ a bit from the prevailing winds.

    Been (mostly) lurking for a decade or so, and love this joint, but I haz a sad when new voices (all too often) get the “Welcome Troll!” treatment. To what end?

    Azul banned? Wow….

    Dork? yes.
    Irritating affect?  hell yes.
    Troll? nah…. unless there is some unknown evidence, as Cheryl alludes to

    I’m with Raven (even though I often skipped Azul’s murky comments), because this feels a bit like censorship.

    G’nite all…

  280. 280.

    Mnemosyne

    @BellyCat:

    Honestly, I tend to trust Cheryl and WaterGirl more than those of us who weren’t in on the decision and didn’t see the evidence. John is so reluctant to ban even disruptive trolls that I have to think that there was something much more that they were worried about.

  282. 282.

    Aleta

    @Cheryl Rofer:  It’s clear that the patois was fake; he often slipped out of it.

     

    I had a different impression. He turned the writing style on and off intentionally; he didn’t slip.  It was obviously not his real voice.

     

    When I see one element of fakery, I have to ask what else is fake.

     

    As long as that criteria for banning is not applied selectively.  IMO his decision to write in a fiction-like style for effect or practice isn’t as close to spreading misinformation or disinformation as occasional other statements here in the past.  I get that it’s hard not to be selective, and that the decisions are hard.  But commenters are treated differently here, by each other, and that’s why John’s past description, out front, of his grounds for banning was important.  I’m asking that where you and Adam have different responses, those grounds  should also be explained out front, ahead of banning someone. That would reduce this kind of discussion.

  283. 283.

    Steeplejack

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    This sounds like some Big Brother bullshit. Ola azul banned in secret, for what? “Intentionally disruptive”? “Shit-stirring and messing around with identities”? Authentic frontier gibberish? And “It’s not something anyone on this thread, for example, needs to worry about for themselves.” What, because the big brains are on it behind the scenes?

    “My objective is to protect the community and provide a good place for discussion.” Why do we need protection, and what are you protecting us from? Disinformation? What disinformation was ola azul spouting? Yes, he could be tedious as shit, and a lot of people were irritated by his affected dialect, but, Christ, that’s what the pie filter is for, or the scroll button. And I don’t remember him posting anything so far beyond the pale that it warranted banning.

    This new dainty sensibility on Ballon Juice is disturbing. It used to be that you had to shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue or call someone a cunt to get banned. Apparently we’ve moved on to tone policing and in camera proceedings.

    Who else don’t we know about? Hmm, I haven’t seen eemom around in a while. ?

  284. 284.

    Steeplejack

    @Aleta:

    I had a different impression. He turned the writing style on and off intentionally; he didn’t slip. It was obviously not his real voice.

    Christ, this. The frontier gibberish was obviously a rhetorical device. When he dropped it to make his point clearer—or for whatever reason—that’s not a sign of some malevolent intent.

  287. 287.

    Procopius

    @WaterGirl: Thanks for the explanation(s). I think I get it. It doesn’t seem like something I would use. I wish something like the old kill filters on Usenet News readers was available. Much more flexibility, but I guess you have to use the technology that’s available, not what was available in The Golden Age.

  288. 288.

    cleek

    Umm… all hail me!

    :)

    It’s possible to write filters for front-pagers – I have one. It takes GreaseMonkey and a little HTML snooping to make it work, though. Not for the faint of tech.

  293. 293.

    raven

    @debbie: What’s this horseshit?

     

    “My objective is to protect the community and provide a good place for discussion. I’ll post more about disinformation all through this year, as the opportunity presents itself.”

     

    Her objective?

  294. 294.

    Amir Khalid

    @cleek:

    It’s possible to write filters for front-pagers – I have one.

    !!

    I’d ask if you planned on sharing; but anger at a front-pager would more likely tempt me to quit Balloon Juice than to pie them.

  295. 295.

    satby

    @raven: it’s been repeated multiple times, but Cheryl didn’t ban the guy, Cole did, and for additional behavior they don’t want to detail here. According to the comment policy, after multiple warnings.

  297. 297.

    BruceFromOhio

    Another classic BJ thread.

    Won’t use the pie filter, though I know it has been/is used on me.

    YELLOW WEASEL, YELLOW WEASEL barely got them a yard, though it was fun to hear the call. It now joins OMAHA, OMAHA in the play-calling lexicon.

    I’m digging the call outs to Think Black Duke and his phrases.

    Also hoping eemom is just busy somewhere, her snappy repertoire is a welcome note.

    @raven: sounds painful. You had me laughing about getting 86’d from FDL, that place was great until it wasn’t. TBogg, TRex, Donita Sparks, Emptywheel, it was a good thing while it lasted.

  298. 298.

    raven

    @BruceFromOhio: Yea, I hope I’m not headed that way again.

     

    T Rex lives up the street and barely survived a heart attack a while back. I feel like I’m having one over this shit.

  299. 299.

    George

    Again, I’m a long-time lurker and an infrequent commenter as mentioned in a thread yesterday.

    My god, some of you people with your whinging about one person getting banned because the people in charge of this blog felt it was necessary, which has been explained multiple times.

    Policies are good.  They avoid degeneration into arbitrary chaos.  Get over yourselves.

  300. 300.

    raven

    @George: He’s a friend of mine and I’m not “whinging” I think it’s horse shit but thanks for your opinion. As for “people in charge of this blog”. Sheeeeeeet.

  301. 301.

    BruceFromOhio

    @raven: It was TRex that got me to this place. When TBogg changed agents, a bunch of us ended up at TRex’ place crying the blues. His counsel was basically ‘cowboy up already, sheesh.’ Somewhere in that thread was a link to here.

     

    I hope he’s doing okay; never met the man, but he seems like one of the good ones. And this thread is classic jackal, there are other things more worthy of myocardial infarction.

  303. 303.

    Kattails

    @raven: I have often appreciated your comments. I would ask you please to consider that although he may be your friend, he may affect others quite differently. How many people, for example, will be divorcing someone not just for incompatibility, but serious behind-the-scenes issues. Their friends will be unsupportive because they did not live those issues, or saw only glimpses of bad behavior that really was a constant away from other eyes.

    I left a job over a year ago. I had huge issues with the manager, all largely invisible to outsiders, but he was very personable. He’s now very ill. I’ve had people coming into my new job hinting that I should take pity, he’s suffering etc. I could save myself a lot of aggravation, make myself look better and knock him down very thoroughly, but not going to. I’m sorry he’s in a bad way. But I did my tour and need to be done with him. This is fair.

    The people who “run this blog” put in countless hours trying to create an interesting, topical, readable place and succeed pretty well, which is why I check in here too often for my own financial good. They have not only a right but an obligation to set policies that maintain those objectives.

  304. 304.

    OzarkHillbilly

    I’ve never used the pie filter. Even the people who annoy me say something worth while from time to time. And if they go way off into foul territory it’s easy enough for me to ignore them.

    That said, I don’t really care that some people use it. To each their own.

    ETA Catcake would be a whole lot better without the hairballs.

  305. 305.

    Chris Johnson

    I’m with Cheryl Rofer wholeheartedly and I’ll tell you why (in general, not specific ways).

    We absolutely know the Russians put trolls in to mess with online communities. Big money is being spent to do this effectively. We know a lot about how to do it effectively.

    Ramping up factionalism is very important to destroying America (further). You absolutely cannot do that in only one direction (for instance, planting people on Twitter and elsewhere as berniebots). You have to also plant anti-berniebots. You seed the ground in all directions (if you are Russia, waging informational war on the US to the death). You don’t just run ‘Litany’, you run anti-Litanies and make ’em fight.

    And you’re not really concerned about people who would use the pie filter (nor is the pie filter any kind of weapon against this). You’re not playing to the people who’ll freak out, they are your unwilling allies. You are playing to the crowd.

    The end goal is for onlookers to go away thinking ‘gosh, there are a lot of people thinking Kamala Harris is a cop’ or ‘gosh, Kamala Harris supporters are really harsh’ or ‘gosh, Joe Biden is sure racist’ or ALL of those things at once.

    Stochastic terrorism through trollery. You don’t have to get specific results, you’re working on general categories of behavior and trying to get general results which are pretty easy to get, and the people getting the most upset are NOT the real target.

    And that’s why I cosign everything Cheryl is saying and trust John’s decisions in this matter. This isn’t a game, though it’s played like one. We’ve already been successfully attacked once. Certain posters only laid off me when I got serious cold feet over the Bernie thing… but they themselves may have been working the other side of the trolling equation, formally.

    I no longer trust my ability to spot Russian trolls… but the blog hosts have resources like IP addresses, much better tools. I trust them more than I trust me, on this subject.

  307. 307.

    J R in WV

    @Felanius Kootea:

    Re: Testing Pie 1; Testing Pie 2

    To me you don’t test the pie filter by posting comments, you test the pie filter by putting people into the pie filter who have already posted a ton of comments, then look at the changes in the thread,

    And then you can toggle their pie on and off…

    And finally, you take the people you put into the pie filter back out to see that their comments return to the thread. You can put anyone into the pie filter, even Watergirl, as long as you remember to take them back out. Even if you forget and leave them in the pie filter list, when you see their comments replaced by little pix of pastry, you can take them out then. No harm done.

    Some people act like putting commenters into the pie filter is akin to the death penalty, or a great social scandal at least, when no one but you yourself can ever know that you have put someone into the pie filter, unless you tell them.

    I sometimes comment about pie to people who have irritated me, which doesn’t mean I have put them into the pie filter, it just means I’m talking around putting them into the pie filter.

  308. 308.

    TomatoQueen

    @Chris Johnson: This seems reasonable and in light of what has been discussed and will continue to occur, an abundance of caution is valid. Speaking as a former IRC op (yes I am old), the damage that can be done behind the scenes vs what can be overcome is an ever-changing equation. Bottom line is it’s John’s blog, John’s rules, and therefore John’s ultimate choice between safety and security.

  310. 310.

    Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray

    @George: An on-line community is either open or it’s not. I’ve been here a while and I thought it was open. I didn’t like the guy in question, so I didn’t read his stuff, but I’m with Steep and raven here, this is straight up horseshit.

Comments are closed.