I’m fine with Mayor Pete trying to carve out a centrist lane, but Jesus Christ are we going to do this again?
Asked at a town hall here how important the deficit is to him, Buttigieg said it’s “important” and vowed to focus on limiting the debt even though it’s “not fashionable in progressive circles.”
“I think the time has come for my party to get a lot more comfortable owning this issue, because I see what’s happening under this president — a $1 trillion deficit — and his allies in Congress do not care. So we have to do something about it,” Buttigieg, the former mayor of South Bend, Indiana, said in a packed middle school gym, drawing cheers.
Don’t worry, Pete, the media and the Republicans will do their best to have Democrats “own” the deficit that Bush’s war and Trump’s tax cuts have saddled us with. You don’t need to do it for them. But wait, there’s more:
“It’s not fashionable in progressive circles to talk too much about the debt, largely because of the irritation to the way it’s been used as an excuse against investment. But if we’re spending more and more on debt service now, it makes it harder to invest in infrastructure and health and safety net that we need right now,” he said. “And also this expansion, which I think of as, by the way, just the 13th inning of the Obama economic expansion. It isn’t going to go on forever.”
But are we spending more on debt service? Probably in absolute terms, but it’s cheap money. Twenty-year T-Bills are a smidgen under 2%. Why not borrow some more low cost debt to get our social agenda through? That’s every bit as legitimate a position as being a deficit hawk as soon as Democrats have power, so we’re hogtied and can’t do shit. We get no credit for our fiscal austerity, just as Republicans get no blame for deficit spending, which should be a lesson to politicians like Pete who pretend that we might. In other words, some things are “unfashionable” because they are dumb.
While we’re talking about 1988 beltway tropes:
It’s fine to extol the virtues of country living – it ain’t all sweat, piss, jizz and blood. But, as someone who grew up in the “heartland” and spent a couple of months there last year, let me tell you that today’s small town values mainly consist of a bunch of old MAGA hats voting down every bond issue because they don’t want to pay for schools that educated their children. Now that their grown-up kids are Democrats living in a blue dot or a urban center, these old Fox Newsers only care about cutting their taxes, which even Pete isn’t promising. Plus, the fight in 2020 is going to be Democrats getting out our base in urban centers of swing states. That’s why having Iowa and New Hampshire go first just has to end.
(I stole the title for this post from Steve M.)
schrodingers_cat
M^2’s posts are informative they tell us who the BS cult has identified as the Enemy of the People. Congrats Pete B on your Iowa win and give them hell tomorrow.
Cheryl Rofer
If we used the trope of “that’s where the money is,” we would advocate higher taxes on wealthy people.
Oh wait. I think one of the candidates is doing that.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Cheryl Rofer: Probably the same candidate who said something like “Who runs for President to talk about what we can’t do?”
teacher ryan
I,for one,appreciate the subtle Zevon reference.
kindness
Pete is a nice story but I’m not taking someone from the level of Mayor of a small city to President. No.
satby
Like red meat for lions, isn’t it? If course, all the Democratic candidates advocate repealing that Trump tax giveaway, and for higher taxes on corporations that don’t pay any now. Both of those reduce the deficit automatically. And reshuffling budgets for more social programs and less military boondoggle and WALL is possible with added revenue while still reducing the deficit.
The last two Democratic presidents reduced the deficit. But the collective freak out over this does demonstrate our degraded, dumbed down political discourse, so that’s something.
satby
@schrodingers_cat: agreed. Also ironic that they automatically assume that deficit reduction would mean social program cuts, when none of them have even looked at the guy’s issue page to see the social programs and additional spending on them he’s proposed.
Most of our political commentary is just awash in supposition, innuendo, and bad faith.
schrodingers_cat
@satby: Anyway who can deny BS a win or an overwhelming win in NH is good in my books.
Dorothy A. Winsor
From HuffPo:
schrodingers_cat
Both EW and KH campaigns decision to go all in for M4A doomed them. Why go for the pale imitation when you can have the original finger waving shouty Marxist from NYC.
ETA: DSA is rebranding because even the Vt Jesus knows that call himself a Communist would never get him elected.
Rick Taylor
I used to be a deficit scold. But then I watched as George W Bush took the savings of the Clinton years as justification to push tax cuts for the rich and I learned. I don’t understand why any Democrats are still falling for this. Fool me once, shame on you.
Sab
As long as he stays away from “entitlement reform” I am okay with this discussion. Democratic presidents have been fiscally responsible since forever. I think this him going after Bernie.
schrodingers_cat
@Rick Taylor: As long as deficits are reduced by taxation I am good.
rp
Lord knows I am not a Pete fan, but if he’s raising this to as a way to knock Trump (“I see what’s happening under this president — a $1 trillion deficit — and his allies in Congress do not care”) and the ridiculous tax cut, it’s a smart move politically.
rikyrah
Morning Everyone ???
satby
From Cole about this ridiculous nontroversy:
John [email protected] 16h
I, too, am for deficit reduction. By reducing corporate welfare and the military spending and by repealing the last decade and a half of tax cuts and ramping up enforcement of tax cheats. Do that and we can reduce the deficit and spend a lot on people and infrastructure
PJ
@teacher ryan: Play that dead band’s song
Cheryl Rofer
If Pete is going to advocate for lowering the deficit, he needs to connect that with raising taxes. That would be innovative.
Trump just released a budget that wildly increases the spending for nuclear weapons while cutting social benefit spending. This is the direction a blank-check argument for lowering the deficit will always go. The Republicans have built this expectation in. And increased taxes and defense spending on deficits.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@rp: That would be fine. Make Trump own the deficit and say we’ll clean it up with higher taxes on billionaires or whatever. Don’t lead with us “owning” it. I don’t want us to own Trump’s deficit. It’s the oldest Republican trick in the book.
BTW, this isn’t aimed at you but a general comment: Elizabeth Warren is still running for President, and she’s currently in 3rd in the polls, and won 3rd in Iowa, and was promptly erased by the media. So when Pete says “progressives”, he’s targeting her, too
Edited to add: And the reason Pete doesn’t attack Sanders directly, but instead obliquely gestures towards vagueness, etc., is because if he hit Sanders for not having plans, that would leave an opening for Warren, the plans person. Pete is no dummy. He wants to tar Sanders and Warren with the same brush.
satby
@rp: it is. Attacking Republican talking points isn’t the same as using them. Can’t fight what you don’t acknowledge, and like it or not people misunderstand the deficit and worry about when that bill comes due, and are easy victims of Republican demagogues on it.
rp
@rp: That said, I wish he would speak more plainly. Just say “the media loves to portray the GOP as the responsible deficit hawks, but Trump and McConnell have increased it to insane levels. The last two Dem presidents reduced the deficit significantly.”
rp
@download my app in the app store mistermix: Agreed. See my comment above.
satby
@Cheryl Rofer: He does. In detail.
the Conster
@schrodingers_cat:
Correct. Warren and Harris should have called out the old fraud for his endless BS around M4All, and anyone who still is being conned by the finger wagging vaporware marketer needs to apologize to everyone here for being a gullible dope.
There is NO SUCH THING as Democratic Socialism, anywhere in the world. Just because Sanders figured out that calling oneself a socialist is the electoral kiss of death outside of a tiny all white state that couldn’t make his signature policy work without bankrupting the state, doesn’t mean that slapping “democratic” in front of “socialism” make’s it a thing. IT ISN’T A THING.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@satby: Come on, dude, I get it: you like Pete. There are reasons to like him. But, he likes to appropriate Republican talking points. He said, plainly, that Dems need to “own” the deficit. That’s because he’s pushing a narrative that’s he’s more responsible, he has clear plans, etc. He doesn’t need to use that Republican talking point to make his case. It’s just unnecessary.
Same point as @rp said above. Say it clearly, don’t dance around with a bunch of beltway-approved nonsense.
different-church-lady
@satby: Christ, I’m ready to vote for Cole at this point.
Kay
It’s a shot at Sanders and Warren. He used to say “my party” (2019) and he has now changed that to “progressives”.
I’m okay with it in terms of the race. He’s attacking his opponents. They all are. I only find it annoying when he denies he attacks. Of course he does.
Cheryl Rofer
@satby: Eh, not in this quote. And I haven’t seen it elsewhere. He’s got to say it in the same breath and emphasize it so it gets into the news
ETA: The “owning the debt” is a step too far. It’s Trump’s debt. It’s the Republican Party’s debt. It’s the billionaires’ debt. Let them pay it back. That’s another formulation he could use to get the point across.
natem
Two lightweights leading the charge for the Dems, one a “progressive” whose whole campaign is built on bumper sticker slogans to people who don’t vote, and the other a 37-year old whose only previous political chops was mayor of a town smaller than the enrollment at some community colleges. This is all fine.
rp
@Kay: Exactly. to my earlier point about speaking plainly, that applies to his primary opponents as well. If he wants to challenge Warren and Sanders on specific issues, just come right out and say so. “Senator Warren and I have different views on how to approach the deficit, blah, blah, blah.” The zen koans are really irritating.
Kay
I wish they’d ALL go after Trump’s budget. Ripe for the picking. It slashes Medicare and Medicaid.
Pelosi led with it- it would be helpful if our candidates would all say it. Maybe they all will in congressional races.
OzarkHillbilly
Thankyou.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: Agreed. I don’t understand why they don’t take their cues from NP. Criticize Rs at every opportunity.
satby
@download my app in the app store mistermix: and I believe Kay has ably replied to this. It’s a primary, he’s differentiating. I’m not worried about Warren, she can handle herself. You guys may interpret it as aimed at both, but it’s Sanders he’s gunning for here as they’re competing for top spot in NH. And deservedly IMO, because the Sanders stans are a primary source for Buttigieg smears and disinfo.
Kay
@rp:
I don’t know, but if I were a Democrat in office who has been battling on these issues for years it would piss me right the hell off that he’s scolding.
What bugs me about it is pretending it’s “new”. It’s not fucking new. It’s 1990’s Democratic boilerplate. As a Democrat I’m fine with it but please don’t pretend you invented Bill Clinton’s entire campaign.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
The Medicare/Medicaid thing is just beautiful because then political media can’t scold them for not doing “kitchen table issues”
They’ll have to pretend they give a shit about healthcare.
syphonblue
ffs he even blames the debt on Obama in his quote right there. This isn’t him pivoting to say we need to cut military and tax cuts, it’s him taking the standard Republican attack of the Democrats not caring about the debt and trying to tie it to the Democratic party instead of the one that’s consistently raised it every time they’ve been in power.
rp
@Kay: Not just “new,” but from someone who’s a “DC outsider” from the “heartland’ and brings a “fresh” perspective to the debate.
(obnoxious overuse of quote marks intentional of course)
Baud
@syphonblue:
Where?
MattF
It’s very disappointing that Mayor Pete is reanimating the debt/entitlement zombie into the Dem debate. Krugman has been on this one since forever, here’s a sample.
Kay
@rp:
It drives me crazy. It’s probably proof I’m old but business circles are FULL of this shit. Someone told them they were “innovative” so they recycle, like, STANDARD business things as if they invented them.
“Quality.…hmmm. Why didn’t I think of that?”
rp
@Kay: A few years ago, my boss made a big announcement at the beginning of the fiscal year about the fact that this year was going to be all about…drumroll…increasing revenue. The year of revenue growth! I turned to my friend and…well, do I even need to finish this story?
Betty Cracker
Quote from one of the Pod Save America guys:
That’s it. That’s the message.
satby
@natem: you forgot the billionaire who’s coming up fast. We need smarter voters. Of the three though, the regular Democrat is Buttigieg, and he’s the one who will select progressive, not ideological, advisors and who would have and welcome party support for legislation. I vote for the Democrat (still team Warren).
Xavier
The entire deficit argument is a complete red herring. The United States has had a national debt since 1835 and people have been warning that the deficit sky is falling and our children and grandchildren etc. etc. since early 1836, and the sky continues to not fall and children and grandchildren continue to not be impoverished and hyperinflation continues not to hyperinflate. It’s way past time to stop arguing that it will. Just stop it.
This has nothing to do with interest rates being low, it has to do with the inherent powers of a government that creates its own money out of thin air.
PIGL
@Rick Taylor: Well I suppose some people suspect that he’s not fooled at all he simply trying to fool The electorate. Maybe he is the McKinsey candidate. The other parts of his resume our preposterously slender.
Chip Daniels
When people extoll the virtues of “small town America” what sort of people are they talking about?
Small towns like some in Alabama which have a majority black population? Small towns where a third is Mexican immigrants working at the local slaughterhouse? Naww.
“Rural” is code for “White” the way “Urban” is code for “Black”.
I don’t believe there is a “rural” culture in America that is distinguishable from “urban” except as proxy for race.
People who live in small towns listen to the same music, watch the same tv, work at the same sort of jobs. Their marriages aren’t any stronger or weaker, their family relationships aren’t any less complicated.
satby
@Baud: no, he doesn’t. He specifically points out (as Kay quoted) that Republicans run the debt up and Democrats shrink it. It’s right there in Kay’s copy of the quote.
This is why I’m always defending the guy, because people deliberately misconstrue what he says.
Baud
@satby:
Right. I didn’t see any basis for that assertion.
jonas
I think Mayor Pete is smart enough to know that this isn’t a real Democratic or progressive talking point, but he does know perfectly well that the media Eat. This. Shit. Up. Almost as much as “reaching across the aisle” to “get things done.” So you throw the journos a bone like this once in a while in exchange for their covering you as a pragmatic, just-folks kind of guy. Seems to be working pretty well, I’d say. Whether anyone in a state that *isn’t* 98.5% old white guys will give a crap is another thing….
PIGL
@natem: Yes this is a problem but it still largely based on The results from the carcass of one marginal stayed with a 37-year-old would be expected to do well.
syphonblue
@Baud: “And also this expansion, which I think of as, by the way, just the 13th inning of the Obama economic expansion. It isn’t going to go on forever.”
Obama cut the deficit by 2/3rds.
The Democratic party does not need to “own” the deficit. That’s a Republican talking point and Pete should not be repeating it. The Republicans are the only people who need to own it, as they are the ones who keep increasing it through destructive and unnecessary tax cuts.
You want to talk about the deficit? Talk about Republicans, and then talk about how your plan is to reduce military aid, gut corporate welfare, and eliminate the tax cuts for rich people and corporations. Don’t say the Democrats need to “own” it.
O. Felix Culpa
@satby: I think Mayor Pete’s comments like this on the debt are problematic because they feed the mythos (which the MSM loves) that Dems are bad on the economy. I understand that he’s trying to differentiate himself from other primary candidates, but I wish he’d play less to age-old negative tropes about Democrats.
ETA: The quote is “I think the time has come for my party to get a lot more comfortable owning this issue” and then he pivots to “because I see what’s happening under this president — a $1 trillion deficit — and his allies in Congress do not care. So we have to do something about it.”
That’s sort of good, except most people only hear the first part of the comment. Actually, it’s the GOP that owns this debt and if he thinks it’s important, he should lead with that.
The Dark Avenger
@schrodingers_cat: You expect too much from Mr. Consultant. He calls a Republican tune, and the radical centrists like you are glad to dance to it.
schrodingers_cat
WTF is a radical centrist? What makes you think I am dancing to Pete B’s tune. I disagree with his remarks. I am happy that he won Iowa because he is not BS.
Baud
@syphonblue:
How do you interpret Pete crediting Obama for the expansion as blaming Obama for the deficit?
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: The cult has found us.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@syphonblue: permanent tax cuts for the rich and for corporations combined with getting us into multiple endless wars. But the Dems some how needs to “own” deficit reduction??? And every time a Dem wins the White House (or House, or Senate) they become responsible for the mess the Republicans get us into, so any programs Dems try to get passed to help people get stomped on for being “tax and spend”…
The script writes itself by now.
catclub
I remain surprised at the predictIt betting website.
It lists Sanders as most likely to get the nom, based on the value of his contract (43%) but guess who is next at 23% — Mike Bloomberg! I just do not see that.
You can Buy Buttigieg, Biden, Warren and Klobuchar
for about the same as Sanders. I am considering doing that.
catclub
They should read Faulkner on Flem Snopes.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
This year is 1992, not 1988. And Pete’s shit (yes, I’m aware that it is shit) wins elections.
@jonas:
Pretty much this. I want to win. We’re still playing with a media that’s stuck in the early 90’s, so maybe we need a candidate who’s running like it’s 1992.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@satby:
Thank you for your service. We’re gonna be nominating one of these folks for President in a few months.
daveNYC
Talk about the debt and deficit has always been concern trolling spending on the social safety net and entitlements. I would be surprised if this time ends up being any different.
syphonblue
@Baud: Hmm….I was taking him to mean the Obama expansion of the deficit, but re-reading it now, you may be right and he’s talking about simply the economy.
Either way, he should not be talking about the deficit. Especially if he’s talking about the economic expansion, because once the economy shrinks and hits a recession again, the absolute last thing we need is another deficit hawk. That’s when we’re going to need to go into expansion overdrive and prop up the economy ourselves.
Kent
I keep cutting young Pete a bit of slack with the 1990s DLC stuff because I sort of assume they are just platitudes he uses with rural folk. But it is getting harder and harder. It’s one thing to talk about “heartland values” It’s another thing entirely to buy into GOP framing. The fucking director of OMB was on NPR this morning saying almost the same exact thing as young Pete about the deficit and how we need to tighten our belts.
It’s the oldest game in the book. Don’t fall for it. Vote Klobuchar if you want the centrist lane. She doesn’t play this game.
The Dark Avenger
@schrodingers_cat: You don’t agree with him, but are happy he won in Iowa. Thanks for living up to your monicker.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@The Dark Avenger:
Here we are trying to win the electoral college and Senate races in Red/Purple states, and in you come, maligning anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders as a “radical centrist”. What does that even mean?
Not helpful. We have a broad coalition. There really aren’t as many socialist-leaning voters in the US as you think there are, so maybe stop attacking your potential allies? Or maybe you think punishing us with 4 more years of neo-fascism will teach us our lesson this time.
Another Scott
Drum seems to think that it’s mostly all over. He has an interesting graph. ex-Mayor Pete’s stealing votes from Uncle Joe.
I mostly agree with his characterization that the guys doing best are the guys who are vaguest about what they would actually do and how. I was listening to a rebroadcast of Pete’s event on Saturday. The soaring rhetoric was great, until you thought about what he was actually saying. E.g. (roughly) “these children who are going to be around in 2100 will look back as ask what did we do about Climate Change!”… “it’s long past time that we said No the Second Amendment does not prevent us from doing something about gun violence at schools!” … “Yes, I don’t have decades of experience in Washington, but we need to bring New Ideas to Washington!” …
:-/
I can see the appeal, and soaring rhetoric is inspiring. But it helps – a lot – when you have an actual record of having made tough choices and the ability to make trade-offs to move society forward. ..
Bernie is Bernie.
So, the two of them might be fighting over 1/2 of the voters. What about the other half? Where are they going to go? I’m still liking Warren’s chances over-all. She knows how to give the soaring rhetoric, and she also knows how to bring out the knives and get things done.
We’ll see.
Cheers,
Scott.
Jager
I have an Aunt, 6 years younger than I am. She is a retired school teacher married to a rich farmer. Lizzie constantly preaches the virtues of small-town life. We got into it one night while I was visiting my family. She went on and on about how they help their neighbors during snowstorms. I told her, “Jesus, in my neighborhood in Boston’s Back Bay, we all pitch in to get cars out of the snow, I shovel my old neighbor’s steps and walk. We pick up groceries for each other and more.” She doesn’t buy it. She is blind to the fact that we are all pretty much the same, no matter where we live. Of course, she voted for trump.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@The Dark Avenger: It’s probably because she wants to beat Trump, and doesn’t trust Bernie to do the job. I don’t trust Bernie either.
WaterGirl
@O. Felix Culpa: I generally agree with you, but are we to the point that we are criticizing our own candidates based on the order of words and phrases in a sentence?
When we currently have a president who can’t even put a sentence together half the time, it seems not to our benefit to be tearing at our candidates for things like that.
WaterGirl
@The Dark Avenger: Can’t tell if you are being clever/funny or critical.
MisterForkbeard
You can chalk me up as someone who prefers Buttigieg to Bernie but doesn’t want to vote for either… and who thinks this is overblown.
Buttigieg is right that Democrats actually do lower the deficit. We’re responsible financial managers – the right isn’t. Own this. Buttigieg’s also on record wanting to remove the Trump tax cuts and expand social spending. He should follow his own advice and link these more publicly, but the sentiment is totally correct.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I just do not get what people see in this guy. He’s like a more focused but less passionate version of Beto O’Rourke, whose hoopla also I never quite got. Buttigieg would make a good House candidate, and adequate candidate for a Senate seat or a statehouse, but President…? What am I missing?
MisterForkbeard
@schrodingers_cat: The sad thing, a radical centrist is a thing! Someone who is more committed to bipartisanship than to making sense. It’s… David Brooks! And a good chunk of the media.
People like TDA use this epithet like they’ve used “neo-lib” in the past. This is a thing that exists. They attack their allies with it and have no idea what they’re actually saying.
schrodingers_cat
@The Dark Avenger: You are welcome. I don’t see being blinded by ideology as a positive trait.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: Pete B is not my candidate of choice but he is a Dem and if he is the last Dem standing against BS I will vote for him on Super Tuesday against the Leap Year Democrat.
schrodingers_cat
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:
I don’t care for bipartisanship the way it is currently defined. I am a partisan Democrat and will vote accordingly.
trollhattan
@Kent:
Yup.
How a Democrat attacks the debt and deficit: “Do you see what the Republican party has done with the debt? The budget deficit? They have created a crisis that they will again leave to us to fix, just like they the last time they got into the office, took a SURPLUS away and gave us the Great Recession.The Republican magic trick of tax cuts combined with spending increases only has one outcome, and we’re now in historic levels of debt and deficit, holding our breaths for the next collapse. Don’t let them do it.”
Not “hippies don’t care about money.”
Cermet
@Xavier: Money from “thin air”? You really need to study up on exactly how the money used for the gov is created. For starters, the vast amount of that money used for “debt” spending is obtained by borrowing and hence, interest rates are critical.
satby
@WaterGirl: seriously. Warren and Pete (Amy too I guess) are in it to prevail and then pivot to the general without a lot of pandering that can come back to bite them in a general election. Bernie’s beasts are trying for a divided convention and a bare plurality to win a nomination most of us don’t want him to get. And if we don’t coalesce around Bernie we deserve another 4 years of Trump.
These are not good people.
delk
@schrodingers_cat: I guess if I had to choose between being a boring, run of the mill centrist or being a radical centrist, I’d have to go with radical.
schrodingers_cat
@delk: May be I should change my nym to Radical Centrist Hectoring Bully.
ETA: I have also been called a CIA agent and Susan Sarandon on this blog. Fun times!
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Have you watched him and listened to him? Here are some links I saved early on. They will tell you who he is, if you haven’t seen him for yourself.
schrodingers_cat
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You are missing nothing. That’s my opinion of Boring Buttigieg too. But if he beats BS from Vt, that makes me happy.
tomtofa
Every time I try to make peace with the idea of Pete he says something like this. “Own the debt”. Yeah, one can dig deeper and discover the nuances of his positions, but who does that?
opiejeanne
@Cermet: Trump has been printing money like mad, to prop up the economy. No, I don’t think he thought of that himself, or even understands it.
MisterForkbeard
@tomtofa: That’s where I’m going with it. The intent here is not problematic. The phrasing is. “Own the debt management” is better. “Democrats fix debt problems” is another.
We need a stronger way to describe how Republicans ruin the debt and Democrats make it better. We’re responsible financial managers – they aren’t.
chopper
my god, why would someone say something that i think is so blatantly stupid and impolitic?!
oh, wait.
evodevo
Yes. This…. ” a bunch of old MAGA hats voting down every bond issue because they don’t want to pay for schools that educated their children. ”
I live in a teeny tiny town in Ky, and it is run by and for MAGAts…
janesays
Ezra Klein has kind of a depressing story up, pointing out the tremendous institutional obstacles that any Democrat will face in getting even a fraction of their agenda passed.
https://www.vox.com/2020/2/10/21128617/sanders-biden-buttigieg-2020-democratic-primary-warren
SPOILER ALERT: he’s mostly talking about the filibuster, which it really feels like isn’t going anywhere given Schumer’s comments about it, and the fact that something like 2/3 of Democratic senators don’t want to get rid of it. Warren and Buttigieg are the only two candidates who have openly advocated for its elimination (whereas Sanders and Biden have both pretty explicitly indicated they opposed its elimination), but the president’s views only carry so much weight. They can use the bully pulpit to try to exert some pressure, but in the end, it’s going to be up to Chuck and the majority of his caucus, who don’t seem like they’re on board
The gist of the article is that all of the candidates are talking about bold policy visions to varying degrees, but none of them has really addressed how they plan to get those policy visions implemented legislatively other than saying some vague words about putting pressure on senators.
Xavier
@Cermet: I repeat: people have been predicting that the sky will fall for almost 200 years, and yet the sky continues not to fall. And they continue not to understand why. Public debt does not work the same way as private debt does, and just as our ancestors’ deficits have not impoverished us, our deficits will not impoverish our children or grandchildren.
The Republicans, as commenters have noted, don’t care about deficits until Democrats are in office. Whether they are cynical or just ignorant is immaterial. The point is, Democrats shouldn’t care either.
I agree with jonas at 50: the media eats this up, and that’s one reason why Mayor Pete is pushing it. But make no mistake: he’s being either cynical or ignorant too.
lumpkin
Why “own” a problem caused by the republicans? What a dumbfuck.
O. Felix Culpa
@WaterGirl: Well, I’m not sure my comments constitute tearing Pete apart. I am not happy with a lot of the Republican-lite framing he seems prone to, which is on a different order from dismembering him. :)
I do not like any politician, Democrat or otherwise, who runs against Washington as an “outsider.” That is bullshit framing and inappropriately elevates inexperience and discounts the significant work done by (most) of our senatorial candidates. I do not like any politician using “heartland” as code for real Murkin (including when Amy does it). I do not like it when Dems run on the deficit, except when they lead front and center with the crater created by Trump and the GOP and the corruption underlying it, as Liz Warren does.
I am a loyal Democrat and will vote for whoever becomes our nominee. But reasoned criticism of our primary candidates is appropriate during the primary. That’s how we pick and choose. My criticism of Pete in this instance is more than the order in which he presented the issue. It’s the fact that he implied that the Dems are somehow insufficiently “owning” the debt, when many reputable economists maintain it’s a non-issue and when it falsely plays into the GOP/MSM line of Dems as fiscally irresponsible. We know the opposite to be true and I don’t like Pete suggesting otherwise.
Soprano2
I spent part of the morning on the 1A FB page asking the Bernie supporters what their plan is for when Trump runs a million ads saying that socialist Bernie is going to turn the U.S. into Venezuela. Their response is to tout his appeal to the voting demographic that votes the least (young people) and to claim that people are now mostly accepting of socialism (one of the Pod Save guys did focus groups that shows this is definitely not true among undecided or “swing” voters). When I point out that Sanders has a lot of bad stuff in his past that has never been adequately excavated in a campaign (honeymooning in Moscow when it was the USSR, embracing Fidel Castro, writing grossly about rape, voting against various things Democrats are actually for), they don’t seem to have any answer for how they will deal with it. Some of them do remind me of Trump voters in their blind loyalty to their favored candidate. They honestly seem to believe that none of this is going to cause him any problems, because once Americans get to know him like they do all of them will love him too. And I didn’t even bring up the crap with his wife and that college! This is the biggest reason I worry about a Sanders candidacy – he’s never been adequately challenged in any race, and none of this stuff has come out in a big way. Never mind the stuff Trump’s people will just make up about him. They don’t seem to understand that perceptions in elections matter more than the facts when it comes to low information voters, who are the people we need to get to vote for the Democrat.
Mo MacArbie
@WaterGirl: Damn, look at Catcakes with the nine links ;)
O. Felix Culpa
@WaterGirl: I have watched and listened to Pete. Initially I was very impressed. However, the more I hear, the less I hear, if you will. He speaks fluently and in complete sentences, which is lovely in this brutish incoherent era. Sometimes I really, really like what he says, as in his response in last week’s debate to the (stupid) question about Hunter Biden. His answer was great! But, so much of the time I’m hearing lovely sentences that don’t really say much of anything and don’t in fact put forward anything new, which he claims to be running on. TBH, in the policy world, he strikes me kind of like a Bill Clinton throwback. Intelligent, affable and appealing in certain ways, but not new. I’d like something a little more interesting from someone running as a new generational candidate.
ETA: On the other hand, Bill Clinton won twice, despite being impeached, so maybe Pete is onto something with his approach.
Just One More Canuck
@schrodingers_cat: if you combined forces with Subaru Diane, Mob Enforcer, you’d be unstoppable
Paul W.
@Xavier: This! For fucks sake, Democrats are not going to win any votes spending one minute talking about the deficit. We need to talk about what programs we need, full stop. There are a large number of “expensive” items, such as bringing insurance/healthcare off of personal balance sheets and into a federally managed program, that we need to do or they will break this country. The deficit is going to grow regardless in the meantime, but we only have a few years where we have the political votes AND time to get this shit done.
WaterGirl
@O. Felix Culpa:
In my defense, I did say “tearing at” our candidates. I didn’t say you were actually taking off a limb. :-)
I guess I am making a different choice than some people are. I could talk all day about the reasons why I don’t want Amy K. And it’s not just because I have trouble spelling her name. There are things I think Elizabeth Warren have done wrong, same for Biden, same for Pete.
I just don’t think it’s constructive to be picking at the Democratic candidates who are actually democrats. If one of my friends asks me for my opinion, I’ll of course say what I like and don’t like about each.
But here it feels like piling on, and I think it just encourages everyone else to say what THEY don’t like. Most people here already know who they would choose, but we don’t even know who will be left by the time we get to vote.
So it feels like we are contributing to the overall negativity that surrounds us. I feel like we’re taking our eyes off the prize when we spend our time here spinning about what we don’t like about our candidates.
Just my opinion.
WaterGirl
@Mo MacArbie: Guilty!
I looked at the list I had put together and thought “I wonder if that’s more than 7”. Then I realized it didn’t matter, because if you’re logged in, WP doesn’t moderate your comments. :-)
WaterGirl
@O. Felix Culpa: When I listed to the interviews and town halls that I linked to up thread, I heard lots and lots of specifics.
Buttigieg is not my top choice – most of my favorites have already dropped out – but I think he is smart enough to know that it’s not the best and most detailed plans that are gonna win the election.
I think it’s beyond stupid that we go along with the debate monitors who push for fights between candidates. They should all reply to those kinds of questions with “yeah, there are differences between what we each think are the most ideal plans, but those differences don’t matter.”
“We’ll get the best plan we can get through with enough votes, and by the way we’ll need to have majorities in both houses and will need to get rid of the filibuster because the republicans have proven over the last 12 years that they won’t even vote for things that a resounding majority of Americans want.”
I think Democrats overall are playing everyone’s game but their own.
J R in WV
@The Dark Avenger:
You are deliberately distorting what S_Cat said, in a specific and meaningful manner. Welcome to the pastry list, fool. I’m not giving liars any second chances!
J R in WV
@schrodingers_cat:
Oohh I like “Leap Year Democrat” for Sanders — the perfect description. I guess everyone here knows Senator Sanders has already registered his campaign for reelection to the Senate from Vermont – as an Independent!
But I think it always good to remind everyone that Bernie Sanders is NOT a Democrat, has never been a Democrat and will Never Be A Democrat… with or without Socialist connected some how.
If your cat gives birth in your kitchen oven, you can call them biscuits, but they will still be kittens.
You can paint a toad red, but that won’t make it an apple.
Bernie can call himself a Democrat all election season long, that won’t make it so.
WaterGirl
@J R in WV:
I love this.
O. Felix Culpa
@WaterGirl: Dead thread, but I’m a volunteer leader in the Democratic party putting in 40-60 hours a week. That’s my positive contribution. I try to be fair and honest in my assessment of our candidates. I think Pete has significant potential, but is presently unqualified to be President. I don’t line up with certain things he says. I think we have better, stronger candidates. And I will vote for him if he’s our nominee.
WaterGirl
@O. Felix Culpa: Wow! That’s an amazing contribution!
Our Democratic party organization here is filled will fossils who insist on doing everything the way it’s always been done, and gets in turf fights with other democrats.
So I don’t participate in the party organization. :-(