In spite of everything, nothing much has changed in the national polling. The Post:
After two political conventions, the continuing spread of the novel coronavirus, economic dislocation, more racial upheaval and a coming battle over a Supreme Court vacancy, the race for the White House remains stable, with former vice president Joe Biden holding a steady advantage over President Trump, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll.
Biden and vice-presidential nominee Sen. Kamala D. Harris (Calif.) lead Trump and Vice President Pence by 53 percent to 43 percent among registered voters, statistically unchanged from the 12-point margin in a poll taken in August just before Democrats and Republicans held their conventions. Biden and Harris also have a 10-point advantage among likely voters, 54 percent to 44 percent…
A sizable gender gap continues to fuel Biden’s lead, with women making the difference in the current state of the race. Trump has a lead of 55 percent to 42 percent among male likely voters, but Biden has an even larger 65 percent to 34 percent advantage among female likely voters. Trump’s lead among men is about the same as his margin over Hillary Clinton in 2016, but Biden’s lead among women is more than twice as large as Clinton’s was then.
The likely voter polls are a little tighter, as are the battleground states. For me, it’s both crazy-making and comforting that the race is so stable. I’m horrified that somewhere around 40% of our fellow citizens are evil and dumb enough to still back Trump (I used to think approximately 13% better of us), but Trump is still losing, so we’ve got that going for us.
Do you think the Barrett hearings will change anything? Looks like Senate Dems are sticking to a strategy of objecting to the process — everyone who isn’t a cultist knows this is a hypocritical screw job — and emphasizing what’s on the line, i.e., healthcare, civil rights, women’s reproductive freedom, the environment, etc. Amy Klobuchar telegraphed that strategy eloquently this week.
The debate is Tuesday, and I am sick with anxiety about it, but as others have pointed out, debates don’t usually matter. Biden isn’t worried. Newsweek:
Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden on Saturday said he isn’t worried about the first debate against his Republican opponent Donald Trump because “people know the president is a liar.”
Speaking on MSNBC, Biden laid out his strategy and revealed he’ll be taking the fight to Trump on the debate stage. “I’m prepared to go out and make my case as to why I think he’s failed and why I think the answers I have to proceed will help the American people, the American economy and make us safer internationally,” the former vice president said…
Biden hopes that he’ll walk away from the debate having contrasted his experience and political knowledge with Trump’s alleged lack of.
“He doesn’t know how to debate the facts, because he’s not that smart,” Biden said. “He doesn’t know that many facts. He doesn’t know much about foreign policy. He doesn’t know much about domestic policy. He doesn’t know much about the details.”
I like the tone — it’s appropriately dismissive. Pundits are conflicted about how Biden should approach the debate. Steve Schmidt says Biden will be the first American who’s had the chance to confront Trump face-to-face about the extent to which he’s destroyed this country and that Biden should do that. That’s emotionally satisfying, but is it the right move? Beats me.
Others say the task is to win over undecided fence-sitters (who must surely be the dumbest goddamned people in the country), so Biden should focus on presenting his own positive vision. Maybe, but if so, he should use simple, declarative sentences and one-syllable words.
My guess is it’ll be a combination of the two. If I were in Biden’s shoes, I’d maybe start off by saying that I expect Trump to tell a lot of lies because he always does, note that fact-checking every lie would make the entire debate consist of Trump’s lies and me/Chris Wallace fact checking Trump’s lies, and say that I might have to call out particularly egregious lies but that mostly I hoped to talk about how to move forward.
But I’m not a politician (for good reason!), and I have no idea how that would play. Since Trump is a gross bully, he will go after Biden’s family. Unable to feel unconditional love or any other non-transactional emotion himself, Trump probably senses a weak spot there and will try to exploit it. I believe and hope there’s a good chance that blows up in Trump’s ugly orange face. We’ll see. Open thread!
Snarki, child of Loki
Betting pool!
How many minutes before Trump storms off the stage, leaving the debate?
I’m in for 12 minutes.
MattF
Trump has already challenged Biden to take a drug test. Which means… Trump won’t be sedated…
Starfish
Clinton’s answers were better than Trump’s answers in the debates. He stalked her around the stage. The debates did not matter.
There is a lot of “What if Biden fails?” without any consideration for “Trump has said Joe is sleepy and incoherent. What if Trump is sleepy and incoherent?” Why is the media concern-trolling Biden so hard when a debate is a very bad platform for Trump because:
1) Trump cannot handle anyone else getting any attention
2) Trump does not have any coherent ideas.
3) Trump is trying to run as an outsider when he is the sitting office holder and may have to answer for his own policies if the debate moderators do not sit there and try to plant giant smooches on him the whole time.
Immanentize
@MattF: No, it means the opposite — Trump will be loaded to the gills with uppers and levelers. He is counting on no drug test….
MattF
@Immanentize: He says he’ll take one too.
Ken
@Snarki, child of Loki: So you think he’s even going to show up?
ThresherK
Can I reserve the right to hit over the head with a baseball bat the next media professional who complains about Biden’s “I got better things to do than be your future book access right now”?
germy
That seems to be the strategy:
President Trump is gearing up to launch blistering personal attacks on Joe Biden and his family in the first presidential debate on Tuesday, while Biden is bracing for an onslaught and worried allies are warning the Democratic nominee not to lose his temper and lash out, according to people with knowledge of the strategies in both camps.
germy
I’ll need uppers and levelers just to watch the thing.
West of the Cascades
It seems like a good strategy in this election is to try to get many of the 100,000,000 eligible voters who didn’t bother to vote in 2016 to vote this time (and overwhelmingly for Biden). But I have no idea how to do that! It seems like Biden appealing to (1) how his vision/policies will help those non-voters and (2) how four more years of trump will hurt them is in order, and just repeatedly calling out trump as a liar isn’t sufficient, no matter how satisfying.
Edmund Dantes
Biden could pull a Rabbit from the rap battles in the movie 8 Mile.
Where Rabbit knows the one guy has a bunch of memorized insults and rhymes to attack Rabbit. So Rabbit when he goes first spends his entire time rapping spitting them all out by saying you are going to say this, this, this, etc but I already did that for you. I did it for you. Do you have anything original to say?
paraphrasing a bit.
Immanentize
@germy: I plan on ‘reading’ the debate, not watching. I can’t let myself become so very upset every day anymore.
Baud
I love this. Someone quoted Biden yesterday comparing Trump to Nazi propaganda operations.
I’m sure whatever approach Biden takes, the Internet and the Village tell us how it was wrong.
germy
So Susan Page will be moderating the Harris/Pence debate, despite her conflict of interest.
MomSense
He’s going to have trump so hoppin mad and hopped up on adderall for the debate. Trump will be huffing and puffing and sugar booger rockets will be flying.
donnah
I wish Joe would just call him “Don”, but Joe still respects the Office of the president even if Trump has damaged it so badly.
Baud
@germy:
If anyone in our “camp” portrayed Biden that way, they should be fired and shunned.
ThresherK
@germy:
What kind of bubble-dweller calls something, in advance, from the incoherent Trump a “blistering attack”, and where can I get someone to likewise knob-slobber for me before my next job interview?
Betty Cracker
I don’t know if credibility matters anymore, but if it’s a factor at all, Trump’s serial, profligate lying may have hampered his ability to change anyone’s mind about Biden. I do think that might explain the stability of the race.
sdhays
I think it’s pretty clear how to handle this – Biden has already been talking this up and what makes it kryptonite is that Dump is physically incapable of refuting it: Everything Dump says or does is about him – Biden is all about YOU!
The secondary theme should be Dump’s manifest inadequacy, to the point of making Dump feel so humiliated that he at least fumes about blowing off the other two debates afterward. “Weak”, “failure”, “miserable failure”, “incompetent”, “lazy”, “useless”, and other words in that vein should be the basic vocabulary.
Dump isn’t some kind of great debater. He has a very limited toolbox of things he is able to do and say, and he’s extremely predictable. He won the Republican primary debates because the Republican party is mentally broken and the other jokers who thought they could be President were pathetic losers who were too afraid to go after him, or were so far behind that they could attack him without risking much of anything (like the old Lindsey Graham). He lost the 2016 debates, but misogyny and Jim Comey’s ass-head negated any benefit to Clinton.
Biden will be fine.
scott (the other one)
While that is indeed depressing as hell, I believe much of that can be laid at the feet of right wing media, which is constantly inundating so much of our country with poisonous hallucinogens. We have got to figure out how to deal with it, because we’re never going to be able to really make serious, sustained progress if we don’t address that.
germy
Gayle King criticized Nancy Pelosi for referring to Trump’s associates as his henchmen.
“Minions” would have worked as well. Also “partners in crime.”
oatler.
I’d like to see Trump try that “looming” shit on Biden like he did with HRC.
Steeplejack (phone)
As a Y chromosome holder, I am even more horrified that Trump still has a (big) lead among male voters.
Baud
@germy: This times call for language policing.
@oatler.: The virus should prevent any looming.
Anonymous At Work
First line of the debate, dead first line once microphones are active, “Donald, feel free to call me Joe.”
satby
Those fence sitters aren’t dumb Betty, they’re determinedly refusing to read or hear anything outside their bubble and reluctant to admit they just don’t give a shit about anyone other than themselves. I had at least three people on a friend’s FB page say they didn’t know much about her BUT arguing that the Handmaiden nominated wouldn’t vote to overturn Roe, and several insisting that no smart lawyer lady would be submissive to her husband or belong to a cultish group. This in spite of other people putting rebuttal links in the thread, which they refused to read because they didn’t need “opinions”. And then they’re angry when people consider them stupid.
Baud
@Steeplejack (phone):
Decent white guys are really going to have to make some tough social decisions at some point probably pretty soon.
Immanentize
@germy: but “minions” are now cute little pixar beings. Henchmen is better. Makes old people recall Nixon (or the Penguin in Batman).
evap
I’ve been cheered up by electoral-vote.com, particularly a piece comparing electoral votes graphs (based on polling) from 2016 and now. Biden is doing better than Clinton, particularly in the graph where statistically tied states are excluded. From the piece:
As long as Biden’s “safe states” don’t start dropping like Clinton’s did, I think we can relax a little.
Baud
@satby:
I’m no expert, but my impression is that a lot of these undecided voters like people trying to persuade them. It makes then feel important, and powerful when they can make people angry at them.
MattF
@Betty Cracker: I think there are just very few people on the margin.
germy
Peale
@germy: Yeah. That worked out well for Cruz when Trump attacked his wife’s mental illness.
p.a.
Won’t watch; my tv was a gift so bad form if I break it, but will check liveblogs, and will be curious how much Wallace tilts the proceedings against Joe and how much he props up dumbdonnie.
Immanentize
I really wish there was some way to accurately measure how many Trump Truck Parade participants actually end up voting.
sdhays
@germy: “That’s an interesting point, Gayle. Maybe you would like to define ‘henchmen’ for me and explain to me why you think that doesn’t fit people like Bill Barr. Because what’s really important is whether or not anybody’s feelings are hurt.”
Chris Johnson
I’ve been following the Catholicism debate on Twitter with some interest.
The thing is, Pope Francis is not shy about being progressive in specific ways that are, by a reasonable interpretation, ‘Christlike’. For instance, he’s called for the first (working) COVID vaccines to go to the poor. That is not how it’ll go, but it fits.
I’m not going to go sign up to be Catholic, or gloss over stuff that they have to answer for, but I do wonder how this unfolds in an almost completely Catholic US Supreme Court. I also wonder in what ways Trump can fuck himself over trying to manipulate everyone and everything. I’m picturing him telling Barrett that she can BE the Pope. To him, there’s nothing sacrilegious about this. I mean, to any atheist that’s about as reasonable as how it already is, but he is just the guy to alienate even people who are strongly motivated to align with him. If that wasn’t Trump, he’d be winning at this stage. There is no limit to the things he’ll fuck up.
I think if you look at the track record you could make a really good argument that Trump’s the Antichrist, and I wonder what real Catholics make of that. I guess I would have to amend that to ‘Catholics who are down with Pope Francis’.
My own spiritual beliefs are a hell of a lot less specific but I do think stuff happens with a particular sort of harmoniousness, and it may be a larger pattern (in spiritual terms) that Pope Francis is heading the church right now. I wonder what the rest of the church is thinking, whether they are observing what’s happening across the world and taking sides. I wonder if they’re siding with what Christ would plausibly think about all this, or whether they’re siding with what an Antichrist would be doing right now with all this.
Above my pay grade! Yet I have to wonder. I feel like there’s a human tendency to go, ‘Oh, those Republicans/Catholics/Evangelicals etc., since they want this thing, they are plainly insane monsters who would just as happily chew the hand off the end of your arm. Thugs! They’re all thugs!’. There’s this tendency to run into mental roadblocks and just generalize into this sockpuppet evilness figure.
And when you do that you are left totally confused when a thing like Lincoln Project, or Pope Francis, comes up… or you actively obstruct it because you don’t trust it not to be a really complicated Dr. Evil plot that is cynical from word zero.
Barrett spoke in 2019 about how guns should be accessible to all citizens but VOTES should be restricted to ‘virtuous citizens’. That’s immediately a most anti-American sentiment. But she’s a Catholic. What if Pope Francis convinced her that Trumpists weren’t virtuous? What if she decided that evangelicals weren’t virtuous? Alternately, what if she decided that women weren’t virtuous? All this could go a lot of different directions.
Especially if Trump, in his capacity as fuck-anything-up boy, decides he’s going to ensure he controls the court by naming Barrett the new Pope, because he is completely transactional and also demented and insane, and to him that ensures her loyalty and also means she can issue direct orders to the other Justices, game over.
I’m pretty confident Catholics wouldn’t go for that. I’m also pretty sure a pack of Russian bots pretending to be Catholics would be enthralled.
SUCH weird fuckin’ times we live in…
germy
@p.a.:
From what I’ve seen in the past, all debate moderators, no matter how centrist or “liberal” they’re perceived to be, frame every question in Republican talking points. “You say you want Universal Healthcare. How will you pay for it?” “You say you want to [fix this or that thing the republicans wrecked]. Will you pledge tonight not to raise taxes to do this?” etc.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud:
one of the worst things about political reporting is that “allies” and “some Dems” are so easy to find, especially if given anonymity. It could be anyone from a second-tier staffer to a third-tier campaign to an ex-MoC nobody knows, like that non-entity Warren chewed up and spit out.
geg6
It’s been pretty funny around here. There is apparently a lawn sign war. You might have caught me mention seeing more Biden signs locally than Trump and this is surprising because this is a very Trumpy place. Well, the Trumpers must have noticed the same thing because more Trump signs have been popping up. Sadly, the Biden supporters noticed the uptick and have been getting more and more and more Biden (and Lamb and state Dem candidates) signs and they definitely outnumber the increase of Trump signs. Also, yesterday there was a Ridin’ With Biden event at the local community college, where supporters decorated their cars and rode through the campus and other supporters stood outside along the sidewalks waving signs and flags and such, everyone with a mask. There were about 100 cars. The Trumpers decided to barge in with their decorated cars. It was sad. Only about 10 cars. They were loud and obnoxious and unmasked. All the spectators were booing and giving them the finger. It was loads of fun.
These kinds of things make me cautiously hopeful.
Baud
@geg6:
I love that. Thanks for sharing.
Splitting Image
If the Biden who’s been speaking out the past few weeks is the Biden who shows up at the “debate”, he’ll do fine. His opponent is a man who thinks that passing a cognitive test makes him smart.
If coronavirus didn’t change any opinions, I don’t think that either the “debate” or the Barrett hearings will change anything. Trump’s vote is locked in, and the anti-Trump vote is locked in. There aren’t that many undecideds. As you say, they are the stupidest people in the entire world. The danger is that this gives them a natural affinity for Trump, but late deciders also tend to break for whoever they think will win. As long as Biden stays ahead, they will break for him.
Another Scott
Great post.
Drum has pointed us to The Economist estimates for a while. They have had Biden ahead since April 1, and the EC numbers have been almost dead flat since around June 10.
https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president
But look at the 95% confidence intervals. 420+ EV is not out of the question.
Let’s make it so.
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
Nate throws up his hands. “At this point, you don’t need no fancy algorithms.”
Chief Oshkosh
@donnah: Joe should always refer to Donny in the third person, and not as “the president,” but as “my opponent.” Never, ever call him Mr. President or use the word “president” when talking about Donny.
It will drive Donny crazy.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It’s almost a parody. The only thing worse is when they use an anonymous Republican person to print a quote criticizing Dems.
I wish someone would come up with a cheat sheet to help make people aware of common media tricks.
satby
@Baud: I wouldn’t disagree. And sorry @Steeplejack (phone): but the most vociferously obnoxious one arguing with me was a white guy, insisting that she was “too pretty and smart” to belong to that group, she wouldn’t overturn Roe, etc… using LOL and laughing emojis on every dismissive reply to the upset women on the thread.
You white guys of conscience need to start pushing back on the assholes hard. Because they, like trump, only care what other men think of them. The opinions and experiences of women and minorities don’t matter.
trollhattan
@Starfish:
Bingo. Trump agrees to them because 1. he believes he will wipe the stage with Sleepy Joe and 2. Ratings, ratings, ratings. Trump loves nothing more than to revel in the “fact” that millyuns watch his every move in reverence and he’ll demand the overnights post haste. And also, be up early to watch Fox and Friends sing hosannas of his masterful performance and then to take his call, so they can praise him in real time.
He is sad they’re not being held in a ginormous arena packed with his adoring minions.
germy
bjacques
@Edmund Dantes: That sounds like it was pinched that from “Cyrano de Bergerac”, where Cyrano verbally strips a fop who thinks he’s being witty by making an obvious remark about the nose.
Mike in NC
I ordered a lawn sign that I saw online last night: “Flush the Turd on November Third“
Baud
Here’s where I think the debates matter. If Biden can appear dominant over Trump, it’ll will help discourage Republican turnout and donations by marginal amount, which could help us pick up an extra Senate seat or two. But it’s a tall order given Trump’s ability to bluster and media spin.
Baud
@Mike in NC: Nice!
trollhattan
@Chief Oshkosh:
I don’t think he cared much for Hillary calling him “Donald” to his face. Too bad she didn’t adopt Jon Stewart’s “Clownstick McFuckface.”
scott (the other one)
Barrett is one of those believers who is so devout that she is far more Catholic than the pope. Sadly, I’m not kidding: the right wing of the American Catholic Church have simply become evangelicals who believe in transubstantiation, down to the until this pope absolutely unimaginably radical position of often doubting the Pontiff.
satby
@Chris Johnson: please save your multi paragraph wild speculations for something you have a clue about. Which does not include the Roman Catholic faith.
p.a.
@geg6: Don’t forget, after the election the signs themselves make decent boot trays and snow shovel trays (especially the metal-lipped shovels which can rust their resting spots), and the metal H supports are nice light garden plant supports.
geg6
@Chris Johnson:
Most mainstream Catholics are not down with Trump and never were. Most are, in fact, pro-choice in practice, if not saying so publicly. Barrett is not a normal Catholic. She is part of a splinter group of “charismatic” Catholics. She definitely does not support the current pope. She is the Opus Dei dream girl.
Brachiator
I’m not sure that the debates matter much, unless someone stumbles badly. I think it’s down to get out the vote efforts. And here I hope there has been some effort to get younger voters and Hispanic voters to get out and vote.
Trump will lie and try to belittle Biden. Probably try to attack Biden’s son. I hope that Biden’s counters are sharp and clearly stated.
The VP debate may draw some attention. There are conservatives, and some men of all ideologies, who don’t want a woman or a black woman candidate. Harris cannot win these people over, but she can still expose Pence’s inadequacies. Voters will be evaluating her as Biden’s successor.
trollhattan
@germy:
I’ve stopped following the aggregators since trusting Sam Wang election eve numbers in ’16. Monday night I slept really well. Tuesday night I did not sleep.
Ken
His opponent is a man who thinks being asked to take a cognitive test is a good thing.
patrick II
The crazification factor of 27% was observed in 2005 in the contest of Obama vs Keyes for Senator from Illinois, two black guys, so race excluded as a factor. The 27% of the people who voted for Keyes had no reason to other than they were crazy partisan or just crazy. In the current race, Republicans, and especially Trump, have more clearly become the party of racists so you can add in the slow-witted people who hadn’t figured that out before Trump and twenty years of Limbaugh and FOX explaining it to them and you get 40%.
Starfish
@germy: How will Biden ever defend against attacks on his family for financial improprieties when the entire Trump clan has been profiting off of their positions?
There was that time that Ivanka Trump received five trademarks in China while serving in her father’s administration. There was that time Kushner’s sister was selling citizenship to wealthy Chinese people while Kushner was working in the administration. There is the Trump campaign funneling money to Lara Trump. What ever happened to all the funds that went to the inauguration? Where are Trump’s tax returns?
oldgold
The American people know who Trump is. They know who Biden was.
In this debate Trump will change very few, if any, opinions concerning who he is.
This debate offers Biden the opportunity to show he is not senile. I think he will and by so doing take a giant step towards becoming 46.
p.a.
@scott (the other one): My family winger catlicks write the pope off: “*sniff* he’s a Jesuit.”??
Jim, Foolish Literalist
twitter is in middling a-flutter of Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson’s endorsement of Biden, even your dime-a-dozen Villagers.
I don’t remember Ralph Stanley’s endorsement of Obama, but a dozen years on, I think it’s pretty cool. I don’t see too many pictures these days. The Rock is part of the Fast and Furious thing, no?
Juju
I find the use of the word allegedly in regards to Trump’s lack of experience an interesting choice. That man is more than a textbook example of inexperience. I think there are over 200,000 people who would agree that Trump is grossly inexperienced in his job, if they could.
Biden is a very seasoned debater. I’m not worried. He has a good team and he and they know what they are doing. At this point, just sounding knowledgeable, open minded and competent will be a refreshing difference between the two candidates.
@Starfish: The debates did matter for Clinton. She really pulled ahead and after them, and would have won the electoral college if not for Comey’s letter. She had more votes.
@germy: I don’t understand the strategy of going after Biden and Biden’s family. Trump and his whole family have a well known history of swindling and grifting and apparently drug abuse, if you look at Donald jr’s bleary eyed videos. I don’t see how that works for them. Biden has the reputation of being an upstanding, empathetic citizen. Trump does not.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s good. I think T.R. is a republican, and his endorsement might reach a lot of “nonpolitical” people.
Kirk Spencer
@satby:
The frustration is that a lot of us have – and you see how much good it’s doing, and how well it’s been noticed.
Oh, I’ll keep pushing, but just want to note the assumption that because you see no change means my peers and I are not doing anything is … well, it’s actually very human. But frustrating nonetheless.
Soprano2
I think it could actually make Biden more sympathetic if Trump attacks his family and he lashes out a bit over it. As long as he doesn’t completely lose his cool this is something almost everyone would understand and even applaud him for. I’m sure they’re rehearsing it. In fact, Trump is so predictable that it must not be that hard to prepare for him.
If you saw what my FB friends who like Trump post, you’d understand his support. They see him as their hero, the only thing standing between them and rule by the crazy liberal (brown) hordes. They really do believe this in spite of the 8 years of the Obama presidency, when none of these things happened. I told one of them that I see a weak scared loser when I look at Trump.
PPCLI
“debates don’t usually matter.”
In general that seems to be true. But in this case there is one thing that may carry some weight. Trump and his worshipers have been relentless in pushing the lie that Biden is senile, that he’s out of touch, that he can’t put two sentences together, etc.
Biden just needs to come out with a decent, coherent, solid performance to show that that stuff is utterly groundless. He doesn’t need to hit a home run. And if he does put in a compelling performance with several direct hits on the target-rich environment that is Donald Trump, that could be a finishing blow.
That’s the cost of mismanaging the expectations game. Just like announcing that the Tulsa rally attendance so huge that there would be a second stage.
Starfish
@Juju: I was pointing out the same thing to @germy in my comment in a more long-winded way.
My feeling that the debates don’t matter was colored by that time when people asked the candidates who their favorite philosopher was, and George W. Bush said Jesus and everyone treated that like it was a good answer.
WaterGirl
@sdhays: If there is a god, that will be what Nancy actually said, not just what we wish she would say.
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
Biden should point out that every single Republican who defends the SC nomination in an election year has betrayed the public trust. There’s your credibility factor right there. All of the ones up for the election should be tossed out of office.
debbie
@germy:
Oprah will be having more than a few words with her, no doubt.
SFAW
@bjacques:
If only he would strike home when he ends the refrain.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Juju:
Like with Barrett, trump is convinced he can win the EC if he turns out his hate-filled, resentful base in the Rust Belt and Florida. There isn’t a thought given to winning the popular vote. And the failure of the Lumpenmittel to even get curious about, much less enraged by, the constant trump family grift is something that still baffles and appalls me even after four years.
debbie
@evap:
No. No relaxing until after the vote count is over.
Kay
True. I know there were other factors but I think one of the reasons Trump’s Biden attacks haven’t stuck like his Hillary attacks is because lying constantly actually does matter and people no longer believe him. The resiliency of public support for protesters is fucking amazing given the wholesale assault by both the Trump Administration and the various corrupt law enforcement agencies who work for them.
I confess I get a smidge of bitter pleasure watching the scolding moralists of the religious Right trip along obediently behind Donald Trump. The sludge and filth is rising so fast it’s oozing into their shoes, but they follow heads held high, still confident they’re morally superior to the rest of us. Don’t look down, moralists. You’re wading thru the most corrupt administration in US history. The shit is sticking to your shoes.
debbie
@germy:
Whenever Trump starts with his absurdities, Joe should just look straight at him and say, “Projecting again, sir?”
Kirk Spencer
@Peale: It’s not just Cruz. I’m minded of how Dukakis responded to the rape question.
For me, I think a demonstration of controlled but visible anger at the remark is a winner because, well, both Cruz and Dukakis made the mistake of thinking what voters wanted to see was a professional who could completely bury personal feelings while on the job and instead what a lot of voters wanted was to see a human in the role. Admittedly, the risk is showing so much that nobody wants the candidate NEAR the button or anything else. But humans, not professional politicians, are what we appear to like whatever we may profess.
p.a.
Among the absolutely reasonable and necessary anger, fear, and anxiety the fascistification of the US brings, we need moments of mental levity to make it through these days: think of what you would see and hear if you were a fly on the wall witnessing his deplorable enablers trying to prep donnie dumbass for the debate!
Kirk Spencer
@debbie: Amen. No hares, no risk of an Aesop ending.
patrick II
@germy:
The refs can make a difference in a close fight, but I’m not expecting that. To tilt this much in favor of Pence would take reputation killing interference, which I don’t see her doing. She likes to pretend to be a member of the both-sides media.
trollhattan
@geg6:
What’s the tally, seven kids? I bet even the Mormons are trying to recruit her, given that fecundity. “Is there nothing she cannot do? I mean besides drive and vote and open a checking account.”
Baud
@Kay:
I think a lot of it is that they think, with good reason, that people won’t remember or care about their attitude after Trump is gone.
dirge
@scott (the other one): right wing media… got to figure out how to deal with it
Fox News, all the wingnut welfare agitprop shops, the whole thing, is clearly an undeclared multi-billion dollar in-kind contribution to the Republican Party. Also probably a foreign influence operation and money laundering scheme. Give the FEC real teeth and subpoena power, along with other appropriate agencies, and set them loose. It’ll all unravel pretty quickly once prosecutors get their hands on internal communications, and the mid level players are looking at jail time, just like the NRA.
There go two miscreants
@p.a.: Swords into plowshares!
Juju
@Chief Oshkosh: I still have a hard time calling Trump President. The only time I’ve been able to do it is when he blames Biden for all the ills of society as if he, Donald J. Trump is not the sitting president.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I still worry about it because the Trump support here is so loud and visible and belligerent. I know it’s anecdotal and I know “signs don’t vote” but there is no bigger myth than the shy Trump voter.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Juju: Eric Trump was literally just ordered by a judge to show up to testify in a financial fraud case against the Trump organization by October 7. If I were Biden I’d point that out and talk about how Beau was deployed to Iraq and fought for his county…while Trump’s sons were ripping people off using a pen.
SFAW
@Ken:
And who characterized it as being not unlike a Mensa “qualifying” test.
H.E.Wolf
http://PostcardsToVoters.org
They’ve expanded their Rapid Response Team, which does orientation for new writers, so anyone joining will be able to help do some targeted, effective GOTV right away.
Miss Bianca
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I do remember Ralph Stanley’s endorsement of Obama, but had to be reminded of it.
I feel like I’ve aged about a century since 2008, so that might be a contributing factor to my “Can’t Remember Shit Syndrome”.
Baud
@Miss Bianca: Yeah, what a slog it’s been. And no rest in sight.
SFAW
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:
Well, the pen IS mightier than the sword, so Beau wasn’t as brave as the Junior Bone Spurs group
Ken
@debbie: If we’re sharing fantasies, I’m imagining the NY AG serving a warrant on Trump during the debate.
sdhays
By his own accounts, he barely passed the cognitive tests and the doctors were “shocked”.
the mugster
IMHO, at his first turn, Biden should totally ignore Wallace and say, “Donald, I want to start by asking you all the questions that made you walk out of your own White House “briefings” when they were asked by journalists. For starters…”
Won’t that be fun?
Kay
@Baud:
Well, it is infuriating and it brings me right back to when I was eight years old and they were lording it over me even though I knew them and I knew a lot of them were sleazy and untrustworthy.
I mean, honestly. Can there be SOME connection between what they say and what they do? Really? You’re going to play the fucking moral card while slavishly following this crook? I prefer Michael Cohen. At least he never pretended to be anything other than a crook. I literally trust him more.
SFAW
@patrick II:
When has any Rethug shill suffered any consequences for his/her perfidy?
Steeplejack (phone)
@Baud:
?
Geminid
J.D. McGuire had a good article last week in Bearing Drift, titled “Joe Biden is the Pro-Life Candidate.” McGuire’s analysis included comparison of abortion rates under Democratic and republican presidents, among other arguments. My friend in Atlanta, who is personally opposed generally to abortion but believes the state should have no say in the matter, described the article as “very persuasive.” He said he would share it with his wife. She is a deeply committed Catholic, and is fairly liberal on most issues beside this particular one. Bearing Drift is published by self-described conservatives who put out some good writing on Virginia and national politics. They despise trump.
debbie
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:
Only after Trump brings up Hunter. Then all bets are off.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Immanentize: I can’t watch it. Just hearing Trump’s voice from the TV in the next room makes my blood pressure shoot up.
H.E.Wolf
My work here is done. :)
https://balloon-juice.com/2020/09/22/tuesday-morning-open-thread-ready-for-the-scrum/#comment-7867366
I’m so glad to have others boosting the signal as well! Thank you!
ETA: Thanks also for quoting the excellent write-up on 2016 electoral votes vs 2020’s. That’s one of my favorite posts of theirs.
TS (the original)
@evap:
Also compare Biden to Obama 2008 – Biden is ahead there as well. In particular
Strong Dem Biden – 206ev Strong Dem Obama – 175ev
Strong GOP Trump – 78ev Strong GOP McCain – 149ev
The map is way more red in 2008 than now. Cheers me up to check them out.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@sdhays: also, doctors have seen fit to give him one on at least two separate occasions, according to his own accounts, one during the still unexplained trip to Walter Reed, and once by Dr Ronnie “Feelgood” Jackson at the White House. Jackson’s WH tenure and the Walter Reed trip were I believe more than a year apart.
SFAW
@Ken:
Complete with Ty-Rap cuffs, one would hope.
PPCLI
@Splitting Image:
Yes, I do hope that at some point in the first debate, Biden just says some variation on “Person, woman, man, camera, TV. I wanted to say that because my opponent believes that it is really really hard to do it. Which tells you something about him.”
Ken
But that’s a good thing, isn’t it? Considering how much of the Trump campaign “strategy” relies on claiming shy voters are why he’s behind by ten points.
(It doesn’t address why Biden is over 50%, which would require not just shy voters but ones who claim they’re voting Biden, but who expects logic?)
ArchTeryx
@Baud: Some of us white guys made that decision a long time ago. My break from the Republican party came during Rush Limbaugh’s early years and I never, ever looked back.
SFAW
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I can’t watch it. Just hearing Trump’s voice from the TV in the next room makes my blood pressure shoot up.
I’m with you, kid. When I see or hear him, my BP ends up in New Hampshire. These days, it’s even been getting close to Canadia.
Obdurodon
If Trump goes after Biden’s family then it would be sorely tempting to turn it around and address Trump’s own family – the three marriages, the affairs, Mary Trump, the utter failures of Don Jr. and Eric and what they say about Trump as a parent – but in terms of persuading voters (more on that in a moment) I think that would be a mistake. Better would be to go the “Rabbit” preemption route, point out early that Trump’s going to project all over the place. “He’s going to go after my family precisely because he feels bad about the state of his own” and leave it at that. (NB: I know Trump is incapable of actual feelings other than anger, but phrasing it that way avoids eliciting sympathy for the rest of the family. Saying “his family is a mess” would come across as nasty.)
Now, about those undecided voters. As others have said, most of them can’t be very bright. As Baud said specifically, they also love the attention they get from people to persuade them, and might also feed off people being angry/frustrated with them. Those traits suggest that they’re more than likely Trump voters, because like calls to like. I don’t think we should expect too good a result from them.
sdhays
@germy: Umm… 46% to 47% in Georgia is “statistically tied”, not “trailing”.
bemused
A friend and husband moved to small town less than 2 years ago and are learning about the makeup of their neighbors from the few who are trump nuts with trump lawn signs and know who to avoid. Neighbor across the street with very large trump sign has been trying to find out if they are trump sympatico and recently almost invited them to come over for pizza and watch the debates. My friend nimbly distracted the neighbor from pressing the invitation. Watching debate with trumpers at the trumpers home is the last thing on earth they would want to experience.
Jay Noble
As early as possible, like before even one question from Chris Wallace, I would like Biden to turn to Trumps and ask “Mr. Trump, do you here and now committ to a peaceful transition of power if you lose the election?” If his answer is anything less than a simple “Yes”, Joe needs to answer “well then there is not much point in this debate now is there?” and just walk off the stage.
Alternately I’d settle for Trump trying that stalking thing and Joe just leveling him. Trump is the kind of bully who never gives up no matter how much you ignore them. Other than some Putin thugs no one has stood up to him physically in ages.
Chief Oshkosh
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
How would we know? I don’t recall anyone in the press asking voters if they care about the grifting. I’ve seen no polling data, either.
SFAW
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’d trust Dr. Ronnie James, D.O.* more than I would Jackson.
*Noted commenter at LGM.
Kay
This is perfect, too:
The scolding moralists on both the Left and the Right have found common ground in sleazy, two bit crook Donald Trump. They should follow him. Follow him all the way back to Mar a Largo and leave the rest of us out of it. We’re hoping to get some kind of rational health care system, which, I notice, both the scolding moralists on the Left and the Right already have because they have secure, cushy jobs as Thought Leaders.
zhena gogolia
@germy:
I lost all respect for Chris Rock for an interview I just read with him in the NYT, in which he was blaming “both sides.” I exclaimed to my husband, and he said, “tax cuts.” Probably the same issue here.
NotMax
@Immanentize
The Venture Bros. kind of wrung all the juice out of henchmen.
:)
Starfish
@Geminid: This is very important to voters in The South. My mom went off on someone who said she supported Trump because of the abortion issue and said “He has cheated on his wives how many times, and you think that man has not paid for any abortions?!”
PPCLI
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:
I certainly hope that Biden’s people have focus-grouped the most devastating, concise one-liner referring to the Trump Foundation stealing money from donations to their “children’s cancer” fundraiser.
zhena gogolia
@geg6:
My Biden sign is still up, almost 24 hours later. Longer than my Kerry-Edwards sign lasted. So “we’ll see what happens.” (quoting JL Cauvin as Drumpf)
H.E.Wolf
[standing ovation]
Joe Biden has panache!
schrodingers_cat
@Steeplejack (phone): Its mainly because of white men. Although in every demographic the Orange One does have the support of more men compared to women
zhena gogolia
@Starfish:
Yeah. A blistering attack on nepotism coming from Trump. I’m shaking in my boots.
planetjanet
@germy: A little anger in response to cruel attacks on his family will just show he is a human being. To stay calm and not fight for what is right will turn away people even more.
schrodingers_cat
The Orange Clown won’t bully or intimidate Biden, as Biden is not a woman.
Kay
@Jay Noble:
The Wallace topics already have a Right wing skew- election security, law n order. I don’t even mind that much but what we’re getting is one debate run by Right wingers and the rest run by center Right conventional media. It’s not actually balanced. If it were balanced there would be a liberal to balance Wallace. As usual, it’s skewed further Right than the country. Political media are more conventional than voters are- not more ideologically conservative, but more rigidly conventional. I think it’s because of the pipeline they come up in.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: I skimmed over that interview, and Rock seems to think that there’s something Democrats can do that they’re not, so they’re equally to blame. Puts him in line with a whole lot of the Do Something Tweeters who cover politics for a living and still think the Platinum Coin is out there somewhere. Including people I’m usually a fan of like Jamelle Bouie and Brian Beutler
ETA: and yeah, in Rock’s case, I’m sure tax cuts don’t hurt.
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Here, maybe this will help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJmHEvgLaLs
Obdurodon
@Jay Noble: Absolutely a question someone should ask at some point.
Also, regarding signs: a neighbor has a Trump sign that says “no more bullsh*t”. As tempting is to ask him exactly what BS he intends to stop and how, I don’t see any good coming of that. Instead, I sent a letter informing him that his sign was inappropriate in a neighborhood full of kids, that I and some friends would each donate $100 to Democrat candidates for each day it stayed up. We’re already over $1000 with matches. Time to send him an update, let him know how well he’s doing as a fundraiser.
zhena gogolia
@p.a.:
Sorry, my vomit bag isn’t at hand right now.
Starfish
@zhena gogolia: CREW just put out a report on Trump’s 3400 conflicts of interest.
Kay
I don’t agree with the conventional wisdom that says that Biden can’t get mad when Trump attacks his family. I think that’s silly. It’s normal to get mad when someone attacks your family and if it’s authentic he should express it. Voters won’t punish him for that- they’ll understand it completely. The reason he connects with people is not because he follows some formula of “strong leader”- it’s because they sense that it’s authentic. Trump is authentically nasty and mean spirited and that’s permitted- an authentic response is also permitted.
debbie
@Starfish:
It’s a fact he has paid for abortions, but evangelicals will tell you that it only matters what he thinks now. Why their heads don’t explode at this blasphemy is beyond me.
patrick II
@SFAW:
Well besides that, if she tries to help Pence too obviously it will help Kamala. Most of the still undecided voters like to think of themselves as fair.
I don’t see happening to Kamala what happened to Hillary with Matt Lauer. Kamala is a different person and we have all learned.
zhena gogolia
@Kay:
Biden is really good when he’s mad.
JMG
@Kay: Their income bracket contributes to this as well. Six (national print) and seven (broadcast network powerhouses) figure incomes tend to breed a preference for the status quo.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: it is uncanny how he gets trumps ad hoc defensive rambling
@Obdurodon: if you’ve ever seen the John Candy movie Only The Lonely, where his racist mother (Maureen O’Hara) defends herself by saying “I tell it like it is”, trump tells white people they’re the real victims of racism, that’s their truth, the only one that matters. He tells it like (they’ve always believed) it is.
topclimber
Remember, jackals, you read it here first (or second or tenth or wherever it is on the thread).
Wednesday morning’s Village buzz:
“Tuesday’s debate featured the usual both sides do it tactics, but the pivotal moment was when President Trump moved to shake Biden’s hand. By refusing to do so, Biden conceded the all important dominance trait to the President.
“Knowledgeable sources say Biden is unlikely to recover from this first debate impression. His explanation that he did not want to shake hands during a pandemic will just reinforce that the GOP candidate is bold and the Democratic one timid.”
bemused
@zhena gogolia:
I saw a photo of large Biden lawn sign with a poster attached to it warning, if their Biden sign is stolen or damaged they will promptly send donation to Planned Parenthood.
Immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: speaking of which — how did the stress test go? Or does that topic also raise your BP? (understandably)
Ken
Sounds like part of the Trump campaign’s “The last four years under President Biden have been a failure” theme, along with protests, increases in the crime rate, and the botched pandemic response.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@JMG: remember in ’08, Charlie Gibson bloviating at a small college in NH that the Democrats’ proposed tax increase on incomes over $250K would target a pair of married professors at that college? He didn’t get why the audience started laughing at him. Probably still doesn’t.
TS (the original)
@oldgold:
Biden is not senile. He shows this every day of his life. He does not need a debate for this purpose.
L85NJGT
@Miss Bianca:
He also picked up Junior Johnson of early days NASCAR fame.
Danielx
@Miss Bianca:
Have a tshirt with C.R.A.F.T. on the front, signifying membership in the Can’t Remember A Fucking Thing Club.
Ken
@zhena gogolia: Sorry, my vomit bag isn’t at hand right now.
Off-topic, but today Cracked had an article on weird collectors’ markets, and barf bags were on the list.
MattF
@topclimber: According to Twitter, bothsides have agreed not to shake hands.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Jill Biden for the win
lowtechcyclist
Yeah, that poll brought two questions to mind:
Decent single white guys (decent => non-Trumper, of course) should certainly have an easier time finding dates than pro-Trump guys do.
I figure the vast majority of incels are pro-Trump, and that does a lot to explain their inability to get laid.
Miss Bianca
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: OMG, I am so stealing “Do Something Tweeters”.
Emma from FL
@Kay:
Yes. Oh yes. I take great pleasure in knowing that my answer to any damn “super-moral” asshole I encounter will be, now and forever, “if you voted for Donald Trump you have either the morals of an alligator or the judgment of a flea. So sit down and shut up.”
lowtechcyclist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Dr. Biden is one sharp woman. Joe did good when he found her.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Immanentize: The test was easier than I expected. They did indeed inject radioactive material and then left the needle thingy in so they could inject more later. That’s what they meant by wearing an IV. I didn’t have to drag an IV pole around on the treadmill. They scanned my heart both on and off the treadmill. I should get the results next week. If there’s a new blockage, they should be able to tell me.
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
I don’t think you can say to people “don’t be like you are”. Family is absolutely central to this person. He’ll defend them. It won’t bother voters a bit. I would be surprised and a little disappointed if he didn’t defend. I know that’s not who he is.
Miss Bianca
@Danielx: Heh
L85NJGT
@debbie:
would this extend to the golden domer if it turned out she had a D&C, or does the pass just apply to men?
There go two miscreants
@Kay: pious Catholics
I was raised with that stuff. As I recall the Jesus depicted in the gospels had plenty to say, in the most unequivocal manner, about how the poor, the stranger, and the refugee were to be treated. I don’t remember that he encouraged his followers to arm themselves either — I think his only discussion of weaponry involved telling Peter to put his sword away. So I have zero patience with the claptrap put out by folks like Bruenig. Their piety is bogus.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nice. Lots of good stuff in this thread.
Betty Cracker
@patrick II: I know the origins of the Crazification Factor, but the 27% result in the Illinois race wouldn’t have gained national currency as the stupidity quotient if 27% hadn’t also been GWB’s outgoing approval rating after he wrecked the economy and lied us into a bloody, pointless war. So, I reserve the right to feel alarmed and disgusted that Americans have raised it by 13 points in the ensuing 12 years. If we keep going at this rate, we’ll be majority-stupid by 2030 or so! :)
@Splitting Image:
That’s an excellent point. IIRC, that’s the usual pattern with late deciders, though it didn’t happen with Clinton, whom almost everyone thought was going to win. But she is a woman, and Trump was “transgressive” as an insurgent candidate in a way that is uniquely thrilling for dumb people. Maybe not so much now that he has a 4-year record of catastrophic fuckups and lying. Also, there are fewer undecideds now, and the race isn’t as close, at least at present.
topclimber
@Chief Oshkosh: “Sir” should be as honorific as Joe goes.
TS (the original)
@H.E.Wolf:
I rarely seem to be around at the same time as you (this may be the day) – so thank you for reminding me of ElectoralVote.com I started watching it in 2008 and it seems to have become better than ever. Keep up the mentions, definitely worth it.
MomSense
@zhena gogolia:
Biden has also been very smart in preparing everyone for Trump’s attacks. Biden has framed the issue that trump can only do personal attacks because he’s just not that smart and doesn’t have the grasp of facts to do anything else. It’s going to be Joe against the bully. Basically it’s Marty McFly jr vs Biff Tannen.
topclimber
@MattF: Oh, I did get it wrong. But I got it first! Sign me up for the village.
Obdurodon
Semi-serious question: if Trump literally tried to attack Biden on stage, what would be Biden’s best response? My first reaction would be say he should deck the cretin, and I have no doubt he could, but that would be problematic with voters on both sides. Second thought is to take the hit, but Trump’s base would probably *love* that. Plays right into the “Trump is strong, Biden is weak” narrative. I think the best choice would be to duck or (even better) throw, but not hit back. Unfortunately, I don’t think Biden has quite *that* level of training/ability/discipline.
Lapassionara
There are two memorable debate lines, and iirc, both were spoken by Ronald Reagan.
1. “There you go again.” I don’t even remember what Carter said that prompted Reagan to say this, but it was effective.
2. “Are you better off today than you were four years ago?” This was during the “address the audience” portion of the debate. For most people, the answer was likely no, given the rate of inflation. What people did not realize was that Reagan’s policies would lead to a wide gap between the wealthy and everyone else.
Betty Cracker
@Kirk Spencer:
Another great point! And that’s one thing I don’t worry about with Biden. He’s a heart-on-the-sleeve guy.
lowtechcyclist
@Kay:
I’m just disappointed that, due to the constrained nature of life under Covid-19, I haven’t had the chance to engage certain evangelicals I’d have normally run into from time to time. I’m practically salivating at the thought of telling them how little life clearly means to them, given their support for Trump as hundreds of thousands die. Whatever their reasons for being anti-abortion, reverence for life has nothing to do with it. They’ve proven it this year.
So they can take all their whines about the unborn baybees and shove them up their asses. AFAIAC, I’m far more pro-life than they are, and I’m adamantly pro-choice.
Dorothy A. Winsor
zhena gogolia
@Ken:
For the longest time I saved the one that was issued when you went to see Mark of the Devil, but it finally kind of fell apart.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MomSense: Andy Taylor vs Lonesome Rhoades
Kay
@Emma from FL:
I’m sick of it. I’m sick of their aggrieved victimhood and how they use that like a weapon to shut down any debate about their work. These are ALL hugely privileged and powerful people. No one has “kept them down” because they’re scolding moralists. Insisting I accept that they’re some kind of victim while they frantically grab more and more power by any means necessary is just unbearable behavior from them. Personally. They behave badly. The Trump Administration is fucking stacked with hugely powerful far Right Catholics. Am I missing something? Why are these sanctimonious martyrs running the whole federal government if they’re so discriminated against?
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Love that! Thank you, Jill!
zhena gogolia
@Kay:
Dukakis fell into the trap with that totally unfair question about his wife.
Haroldo
@Betty Cracker:
It looks as though the 40% factor exists outside of the US, too:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54316316
TS (the original)
@Obdurodon:
One of the best parts of Biden’s debate against Palin was when he reminded her she wasn’t the only one with a family & then he discussed his own family – about which Palin knew nothing.
I’m sure most Democrats know the Biden family stories but equally sure Trump & many republicans do not. If trump attacks the Biden family I’m sure Joe will be ready with a response that educates trump about families in general and the Biden family in particular.
L85NJGT
@germy:
The correct nomenclature is “known associates”.
zhena gogolia
@Obdurodon: Trump can barely walk. He’s not going to physically attack Biden.
His physical deterioration since he loomed over Clinton is devastating.
Immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: that’s good. I am serious in my interest and concern. You’ve been working hard and you deserve good news. ?
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@schrodingers_cat: As a white man I think we should be banned from voting for a century to make up for the time we denied black people and women the vote. This country would be in such better shape if straight white men couldn’t vote.
Kay
@lowtechcyclist:
I have felt this rage at being judged by them since I first encountered them at 6 years old. I had their number before I entered 1st grade and yet here I am, still being scolded by people who follow an absolutely flexible ethical system that allows them to do just about anything to gain power.
I want them to stop judging us. They’re not good enough to do it.
sdhays
@Kay: I’m so old I remember when Dukakis was lambasted for keeping his cool when asked a deeply offensive hypothetical question involving his wife being raped.
ETA: I see @zhena gogolia already got there.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Immanentize: You are very kind. :-)
danielx
@lowtechcyclist:
According to women of my acquaintance, this is answered by one word: testosterone.
Which does beg the question about why so many OLD guys are so motherfucking dumb. I should know, I’m officially an old now and I still make dumb mistakes. Though not as many, praise FSM, and I’m more aware of how much I don’t know.
Gvg
@scott (the other one): media yeah some, but I think certain churches are more to blame. Con man types and authoritarian. They have been hyping pro life propaganda for decades and trying to keep people in church and exclude outside influences because they are losing influence. Teaching them to block their own eyes and ears, stay isolated, only talk to like minded people.
Kathleen
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I read that The Rock used to be a Republican but now considers himself to be Independent.
MomSense
@Betty Cracker:
I still say that half the country is stupid and/or incurious. Then there is the 27 percent who are crazy. The Venn diagram is a pretty accurate picture of reliable R voters and the swing voters.
Baud
@Kay: They’re not going to stop. All we can do is try to deny them political power.
Immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: If that is true, I think leakers and honest folks in DOJ refusing to play sunk that effort. The worry was always a “partial report.”. That idea was floated and pretty roundly shot down.
Amir Khalid
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Not too surprising, actually. You’d have to be crazy to support Trump, and The Rock ain’t crazy.
Marcopolo
Guys, this election is over. The Rock has made it official & endorsed Biden/Harris:
I perused a few of the comments. As you can imagine, there are a number of more conservative fans of the Rock who are, shall we say, not too happy.
Also, apologies if anyone else way upthread already posted this. I started at the end and worked my way up about a 100 comments before posting.
And good morning everyone, ~950,000 votes cast as of this am. We are currently running at about 100x the number of votes cast in 2016. Probably not sustainable :) but nice to see atm
Edited to add–since I can see the comment just before this one–that I missed Jim, Foolish Literalist’s comment at 67. It appears I should have looked at another 10-20 comments prior to posting.
sdhays
I really hope that when Donnie go off on some tear about people being mean to him (which you know will happen) that Biden turns to him and just asks him to please stop whining. “JFC, man, you were born to riches and elected to the most powerful office in the world. I know you’re not capable of this, but stop feeling sorry for yourself and please stop whining!”
Jinchi
When did that become conventional wisdom?
Biden’s whole campaign is framed around his relationship with his family. On empathy for loss, solidarity with soldiers in harms way, the need for people in critical condition to have access to healthcare. He is justifiably protective of them. It’s a pretty sharp contrast to the current president, who likely couldn’t name his five children if asked on his next dementia test. “Ivanka, Don Junior, Person, Camera, TV.”
SFAW
@There go two miscreants:
If my memory is correct, Breunig is an asshole, and has been for awhile.
sdhays
@Betty Cracker: More would have broken for Clinton without Comey showing his ass.
Jay Noble
@There go two miscreants: They only time I recall Jesus getting physical/violent is when he tossed the money changers out of the temple.
Ivan X
@Mike in NC: My neighbor across the street has that one.
Medicine Man
Walking out and punching Trump in the dick might be a winning strategy. Gets the point right across.
SFAW
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Not to worry, Barr will make it happen.
Immanentize
@Jay Noble: Blue eyed blond men back then in the Middle East were well known to be strict pacifists. Which made his hair band outburst all the more notable.
Emma from FL
@Kay: As a near-Catholic with a more than passing acquaintance with the history of the conservative movements I can say that, barring new evidence, it’s because they’re not really religious at all. Religion is the club they use to get what they want, and what they want is the social structure described in the Old Testament with them at the top. Christ ain’t got nothing to do with it.
Geminid
@Amir Khalid: Duane “The Rock” Johnson made a very successful transition from pro wrassler to action movie star. He has a large fan base, which probably overlaps with Joe Rogan’s followers. I don’t think a lot of those guys vote, though. But I liked seeing him come out for Biden.
Ella in New Mexico
@Steeplejack (phone):
The men in my family feel the same way. But then I tell them, in every era of big social change, someone has to be the trailblazing minority.
Look at RBG’s story. She went from a time when she was forced, with her female peers to attend a dinner with the dean to plead their cases on why he should allow a woman to take a man’s seat in Harvard Law School to now, when 52% of the new entrants nationwide are women.
I see it in the younger age groups already: our next generations will be better on whole than the rest of us.
Just keep being who you are.
TS (the original)
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
There are some strange comments on that twitter thread. These have to be the 40% (mainly men) who are voting for trump
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
So Trump’s acting appointees are all serving unlawfully according to a federal judge. Seems like the Dems could start asking why the rush to confirm a judge when Secretary of DHS etc. are still awaiting Senate confirmation for months and years?
Immanentize
@SFAW: I think they badly mishandled the Penn. ballot issue in a way that has really pissed off state election officials in a must-win State for Trump.
debbie
@Emma from FL:
They think embracing religion wipes out their many past crimes and sins. //
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: I wonder if that’s what pushed Ridge into making his endorsement (which, TBH, I thought he had already done) and if it will make any difference
Ruckus
@MattF:
Why won’t he be sedated?
He doesn’t look at the world or especially himself like anyone else does.
His world revolves around his perfection.
Now you and I, and everyone else with half a brain knows that his perfection is freaking zero but that’s not what he thinks and sees. For him anything he puts in his mouth is OK, great even, anything anyone else puts in their mouths is fair game for dissing, because he’s perfection and no one else is. And this applies to any comparison you can think of. Reality to him is unlike anyone else’s reality and always will be for him, for he is perfection. And we know that none of this is real, but he only knows that all of it is. Narcissism is a delusional process.
Emma from FL
@debbie: That is what they say. I don’t believe a word of it. Any Christian that quotes the Old Testament more than the teachings of Jesus or that tries to twist the teachings of Jesus to match the morality of the Old Testament is not really a Christian at all. No matter what they say.
Another Scott
@Baud: “Undecided voter Whitey McWhiterson [chairman of the local QAnon Chapter of White Men for Trump] said that he doesn’t agree with all of the insults that are thown up by both campaigns, and thinks we all should come together and support traditional American values and reject Socialism. He will be attending the local Trump rally to help make up his mind…”
Grr…
Cheers,
Scott.
patrick II
Whatever Biden’s strategy, I hope the moderator doesn’t let Trump talk all over the top of Biden as he did in the primaries and against Clinton four years ago. Interrupting other’s reasonable answers is a go-to strategy for him.
H.E.Wolf
I think it’s great that all of a sudden (probably not really sudden, but so it seems to me), a bunch of us are boosting that signal. I’m a recent arrival to the Electoral Vote blog readership, so I have the enthusiasm of the new convert. :)
I’m usually late – very late – to the BJ threads, so mostly I read the upbeat ones and enjoy the multitude of interesting, knowledgeable, and positive voices in this community.
OK, back to spinning my two plates of the day: GOTV postcards and data entry. I can assure anyone who’s thinking of volunteering in some way: you will have lots of company!
My reason for predicting a blue wave in 2020: men are starting to catch up to the vast numbers of women volunteers, who were responsible for the blue wave of 2018 (and the mini-waves, at the state level, of 2017 and 2019).
Kay
I don’t know why we’re having confirmation hearings now that any analysis of the judge’s work is off limits as an attack on her adopted children.
What kind of “scholar” accepts this, btw? She’s going along with the idea that no one permitted to ask her questions? She plans on benefiting from this political campaign designed to shut down any inquiry into her work? This is all fine and dandy with her honor?
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It won’t hurt. Ridge still has fans in the State. Sadly, too, does Rendell. They are old. But they do vote.
When these guys like Barr go for the quick headline to own the libs, the forget that there are people who work hard every day, are honest, and take pride in their work. They crap on those people every time they pull one of these ten second stunts.
mrmoshpotato
Will there be an audience of assclowns to cheer and jeer this time around?
Or will it be treated seriously?
frosty
Wow. Amy Klobuchar. Wow.
WaterGirl
@Dorothy A. Winsor: They won’t put out the report before Nov 3, perhaps because of the woman who recently resigned, and because legal people like Preet and Lawfar are talking about how wrong that would be, and are saying that Durham has always been ethical, and saying they will see if that’s still the case based on this report. But I’ll bet good money that Barr will find a way to leak it.
sdhays
@Kay: I actually hope they don’t have hearings at all. The more of a farce they make it, the easier it will be to correct next year.
MattF
@Ruckus: If they are both tested (fairly) then Trump would want to be clean for the test. I’d suggest a hair sample to get long-term drug use, but Trump’s hair probably isn’t human.
A Good Woman
Regarding undecideds —
Calling them dumb is an overly broad statement that ignores real nuances among them.
I have seen a handful of articles about focus groups made up of undecideds. The undecideds pretty much covered the political spectrum, but if they had one thing in common it was the expectation that their vote be ‘earned.’ They wanted to know what they would get from the candidate in terms of fulfilling their interests. It wasn’t just the Berniecrats. Conservative women who voted for the Orange Menace were wavering and considering Biden, but wanted assurances that their issues would be addressed, that there was a seat at the table for them. Same for Black undecideds in Philadelphia.
I don’t think these are dumb people. I think they are self interested to the point of excluding all other considerations. The ones taking a ‘purity pony’ approach are the poster child for this.
I saw an analysis of the 2016 Black vote in Philadelphia, Milwaukee and Detroit. A huge segment of voters who didn’t vote, and whose votes might have changed the outcome. I don’t think they are dumb. I wonder if it is actually cynicism in that case.
Young progressives are not excited about Biden and also wanting their votes to be ‘earned’. Yet many are voting for him because they know that any hope of future progress is foreclosed if Cheeto is re-elected. They would rather have delayed gratification than ride a purity pony off the cliff. I understand their dismay but am heartened by their pragmatism.
Chief Oshkosh
@topclimber:
No, Trump loves being called “sir.” Fuck ‘im. Biden should just call him “hey you.”
scott (the other one)
@Ruckus:
Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part but when you see him in a crowd of world leaders, there’s something in the haughty expression that indicates to me he’s got tremendous self-doubt and overcompensates with his buffoonish alpha male behavior. I think deep down in the long dark teatime of his soul, he’s actually got a half-decent idea of just how weak and stupid and unloved he is.
Ruckus
@p.a.:
dumbdonnie
I like the description. More useful in more situations than my shitforbrains.
Immanentize
@Kay: I wasn’t that anti-Bartlett (although opposed to her views!!) until I heard her TV interview explaining how Merritt Garland just should not be considered during an election year. Especially as it would change the character of the Court.
Is that the quality of her judicial philosophy? Is she a sophist simply for right wing power? She seems un-judicially tempered. I think that could be a ripe and politically helpful line of questioning.
MomSense
@Emma from FL:
It’s always proof texting. They’ll quote Leviticus to condemn homosexuality but eat shrimp cocktail and ham for Sunday dinner.
WaterGirl
@Marcopolo: You added a lot of detail that I am interested in. Much appreciated.
Marcopolo
@Kay: I have occasionally read E Bruenig’s pieces. She hails from the Catholic Worker tradition/faction of Catholicism. So while she critiques Dems from a left perspective (she embodies what socialism in the US is) she condemns R’s. Strikes me that she generally believes & practices what she preaches. I don’t agree with a lot of what she puts out cause she’s a purity pony & that shit doesn’t fly with me but the folks I have known in real life like her have been committed to making the world a better place for the poor & downtrodden. They just do not do well with reality-based political calculations. Though having folks banging on the Ds from the left is necessary.
A Ghost to Most
@satby:
I’ve spent the last 40 years doing that. Fat lot of good It’s gotten me. I don’t need to start anything.
zhena gogolia
@Immanentize:
She’s scum.
scott (the other one)
@patrick II: Biden is a white man, and therefore has the right and in fact duty to stand up for himself without being arrogant or uppity.
Sadly, while I’m being sarcastic, it’s also how an awful lot of the country will see it.
mrmoshpotato
@Chief Oshkosh: “My opponent, the Soviet shitpile, says…”
Kay
I think they should coronate the new justice and get it over with. The rest of the country can get on with dealing with the upcoming spike in rampant, unchecked infectious disease. Dealing with it alone, in our individual residences, as best we can, now that our government has decided to take 3 weeks to debate the nature of Catholicism and whether, in fact, the huge numbers of powerful Catholics in government have been “silenced”.
Move it along. This “debate” is completely irrelevant to the vast majority of the country. Maybe they could hold it on their own time instead of ours.
Emma from FL
@MomSense: My answer to the Leviticus thing is always “well, then, you have a problem with homosexuality but not with lesbianism.” It just… does things with their head, if they are serious. If not, well, see social structure comment above.
Yes, I am an “irredeemable sinner”, why do you ask?
Immanentize
@scott (the other one): I remember the stupid question -+ can you say one nice thing about your opponent in one of the 2016 debates. Trump was totally disarmed by Hillary’s kind words about his family. I’m sure Biden gas thought of that moment
Mallard Filmore
@zhena gogolia:
“Security! Could you please help Trump hobble over here so he can punch me?”
scott (the other one)
@Chief Oshkosh: He should just gesture over with his thumb and call him “THIS one.”
patrick II
@Another Scott:
If he doesn’t wear a mask we’ll know for sure he wasn’t undecided.
The covid numbers are going up again, but I wonder if it’s too soon to blame that on Trump’s near maskless rallies. They should call his rally tour “Deathrace 2020”.
Death Panel Truck
@Snarki, child of Loki: I wouldn’t be surprised if he invents a “world crisis” on the afternoon of the debate. McEnany will say “The President is too busy protecting the American people to take time out to defeat the Democratic nominee in tonight’s debate.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: I agree, the only upside at this point for Dems is to force Gardner, Collins and Tillis to cast a vote and own it
MoCA Ace
Hey ! :(
germy
“Sir, we got the results from your hair sample, and you’re drug free. But curiously enough, you’re also 85% yak.”
Obdurodon
@zhena gogolia: I do think it’s unlikely, but let’s not forget that his mental deterioration has been even greater than the physical. He has trouble distinguishing truth from reality. There actually was a time when he was pretty able physically, and I’m not sure he has ever fully internalized that that’s no longer the case. He also has *massive* problems with both anger and impulse control. If someone gets him sufficiently angry, it’s at least *possible* that he’ll forget his military-school days were half a century ago and go for it.
germy
I keep wondering when the caravans will show up.
germy
@Obdurodon: And the reason he was put in military school in the first place was because he lacked impulse control. He physically attacked a teacher.
Immanentize
@Kay: I agree. Healthcare. Worked in 18, is working in ’20.
patrick II
@H.E.Wolf:
JPL
@Obdurodon: Biden should just step out of the way and let the guys in white jackets drag trump’s butt off the stage.
Marcopolo
@zhena gogolia: This comment from Josh Marshall pretty much sums it up for me:
I honestly cannot put myself in the head of a person who aspires to be on the SC. But becoming a SC justice seems like the acme of a legal career. And many human beings, general ones who I have no respect for, do amazingly awful shit to get to those heights. Look at “good ole I love beer Brett” for the most recent example.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@germy: You’d think they’d be here by now. It’s been, what? Two years?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: yup, that’s why they’re trying to claim they’ve been for it all along
I keep waiting for the ad of trump saying in ’16, ‘we’re gonna replace it with something terrific, it’ll cost a lot less and take care of everybody, it’ll be easy believe me’, and then all the “in two weeks…” since then, but Biden has a good ad team and I’m sure they’ve tested everything.
That one ad with the pictures of little boy with cancer and his sister just about does me in
Kay
@Marcopolo:
This shit is banal. She’s telling me the US government and religious in the US aren’t Christ-like? No shit. That never, ever occurred to me, not now and not the 10,000 other times I’ve heard it.
I no longer require these lectures. I am FULL UP with them. I had reached my limit by middle school. After that, every single one was an imposition and not about me, but instead about the person who wanted to lecture me. I get it! She has higher standards! She doesn’t have to tell me anymore.
Kathleen
@debbie: The Network For Catholic Social Justice had this to say:
https://networklobby.org/news/catholic-lobby-rejects-the-nomination-of-amy-coney-barrett/
Marcopolo
@Immanentize: Agreed. Can you imagine anything that would do more to heighten the issue than being in the middle of a pandemic with ~200K dead, ~7M infected (with a new pre-existing condition that did not exist before 2020) and the Republican party being hell bent on abolishing a gov’t program that provides health care for ~30M and pre-existing condition protections for all Americans?
If you suggested this as a storyline for some TV show you might get laughed out of the writer’s room at the implausibility of it all.
mrmoshpotato
Excellent point and liberal use of “suck.”
Kay
I hope Elizabeth Warren looks at the economic decisions of our new rubberstamped justice. It would be a shame if that escaped scrutiny based on the religious ban of looking at her work.
Dollars to donuts she’s as big a friend of plutocrats as Justice Roberts, or the Koch’s wouldn’t be spending 10 million dollars to bully Manchin into voting for her. The Koch’s don’t give a shit about abortion. They want a judge who will find regulations unconstitutional and consistently side with the litigant with the most money and it looks like they’ve found one. Another one.
Ruckus
@scott (the other one):
That is one of the conundrums of a lot of mental issues. What he believes and what he knows may be two entirely different things. And that won’t affect how he acts, his diseases shape what he believes and acts, not what he knows. I’d bet you are right, deep in his brain he knows. But everything gets distorted by the disease and his degree of that between what is stored in his brain and what the outside world sees. Effectively he doesn’t know, can’t ever admit it. The reports of his temper at people not believing what he says is that reality happening. He’s just been doing the show for so long it is his life, and look, he’s president, he must be right? That stalking he did of Clinton in the debates, that was intimidation. That should have been immediately stopped by the presenters but they were intimidated as well, that anyone could act like that. For him it’s typical and he thinks it shows power/position and it did. She should have corrected him like he was a small misbehaving child, because that’s exactly how he was acting. But people who think women have no right to any position/power, they ate it up. And voted for him. He showed “strength,” she showed deference to that, in his world. No one should wonder why women over men prefer Biden over trump. That one act shows in great clarity how some men view women, and the voter numbers by sex right now show that same thing. That it can change and that those views can change is a good thing, but we should never ever forget that it is a real world problem and laws are not enough to change that. Perceptions have to change. Laws don’t do that, at least not well.
WaterGirl
@Kathleen: I ? Sr. Simone!
Marcopolo
@Kay: Honestly Kay, I do not think you are anywhere near the target audience for her piece. You live in a fact-based reality with historical context. However, there are way way too many Americans are not like you (or the folks on BJ) who believe the lie of American exceptionalism & moral superiority. Or that “religious” (particularly those of specific sects) people are more special than heathens.
I mean I generally try to live a good moral life but whether I make good moral life choices does not depend on my believing in some mystical sky god. And if believing in that mystical god is the only reason you don’t go around killing folks that’s a problem. As we can see when these “faith practicing” people have no compunctions doing immoral things to people who hold different beliefs.
germy
Rattling Jared’s skeletons:
JPL
@Immanentize: I read that Democrat Senators should not participate with interviews or questioning of the candidate. Because there is a treasure trove of opinions, and statements, I think they should. ACA is but one area that she will decide.
Baud
@Kathleen:
Obviously, supporting her nomination is anti-Catholic.
Another Scott
@Lapassionara: As I recall:
Cheers,
Scott.
Marcopolo
@Kay: She’s an avowed critic of the “Administrative State.” That’s pretty much all you need to know. She doesn’t believe the gov’t should go around telling anyone to do anything. The most recent appalling thing I learned was:
This is similar to the “virtuous citizen” arguments made for keeping the franchise & other rights off limits for POC after the Civil War. She literally wants us to go back 150 years legally speaking. It makes me wonder if she’s written anything about women having the right to vote.
Sloane Ranger
@Obdurodon: In that hypothetical, I think Biden’s best move is to hit back but only the once. Shows strength and self control. Extra marks for helping Trump stand up again and loudly asking if he’s taken his medication.
dww44
@germy: My view on Gayle King is rooted in the recognition that her employer is bending over backwards across its news programming to preserve its perception among conservatives that it is objective and neutral. So even their hosts of color must also occasionally bow to that mandate.
Another example of how truth and honesty must often take a backseat to the monetary neeed not to offend the right.
PJ
@Marcopolo: Bruenig has tweeted that her family hates Democrats, she hates Democrats, and she despises Biden. She is not a “Catholic Worker” Catholic, she is a fundamentalist who converted to Catholicism for the rituals. Aside from advocating for “Medicare for All” and free college, her beliefs line up with a bog-standard right-winger from Texas.
Mike in NC
Not many people watch Showtime (we have a temporary subscription) but they’re running a two-part miniseries based on James Comey’s book. The title is “The Comey Rule” and Irish character actor Brendan Gleeson was cast to play Trump. They really went overboard on the makeup and hair, making him look about as grotesque as possible (but still not as horrible as the real deal). There will be many angry tweets as soon as Fat Bastard sees the result.
Miss Bianca
@A Good Woman:
Just wanted to chime in and say that I appreciated your remarks about undecideds and this “my vote must be earned” mentality. I mean, to a certain extent, we ALL want to feel some assurance that our *particular* concerns are going to be addressed by Candidate X, but perhaps what makes the difference between, say, a committed voter for Biden/Harris vs. a wavering one is a sense of commitment to the notion of the *general* welfare of the nation being better off under Biden than Trump, regardless of whether you’ve been explicitly addressed and exhaustedly reassured on your particular issue(s).
Also, that I’m stealing this phrase.
PPCLI
Democratic Senators, please.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PJ: interesting, I’ve never made it all the way through a column of hers, I mostly know she’s married to the original toxic Bernie Bro– I believe he doxxed Joan Walsh and called her a “hag” in ’16?– and they seem to be some sort of mascot couple for the Vox/Journo-list set
Just Chuck
@Immanentize:
Illumination actually, not Pixar </nitpick>
lowtechcyclist
@Kay:
They damn sure aren’t good enough. I think of them as Assholes for Christ. They apparently found some Scripture that says God wants them to be assholes to others on his account. Gotta admit, in the fifty years since my kick-ass born-again experience, I’ve never come across that verse.
They bother me for other reasons, like presenting Christianity as something hateful, but because of the aforementioned experience, I don’t feel judged by them because I know they’re frauds. In addition to the obvious stuff like their having little if any compassion for those different from them, when Jesus told us to love our enemies, the clincher for is the whole performative persecution complex.
‘Excuse the fuck out of me,’ I want to tell them, ‘but have you read the book of Acts?’ Of course they have, but they don’t seem to have gotten the message. The Apostles are in fact persecuted, but the Holy Spirit is in them, and it doesn’t matter to them.
Well, that’s how it is, and I know that, and they apparently don’t. So if they ever knew the Lord, they’ve done a good job of forgetting him. So on whatever other grounds I find them disturbing, I don’t feel judged by them. They aren’t qualified.
Kay
@Marcopolo:
I’m just sorry shes not as much of a hot head as Kavanaugh. I for one was looking forward to another “person of faith” telling us to fuck off and stop questioning his authority. Instead we get the long suffering religious discrimination she has allegedly suffered, although somehow she managed to overcome it long enough to get a lifetime appointment to the federal bench and a position at a prestigious university. These people are the loudest fucking “silenced” people on the face of the planet.
She got the seat. It was fluky and sleazy but she got it. Can’t she just be happy about it? She won. They’re now going to rub it in our faces and insist we validate the power grab?
Miss Bianca
@germy: LOL!!
Uncle Cosmo
@Immanentize: “Co-conspirators” would sound even more Schadenfreudelicious to me, but it might not resonate to someone much younger. (I was managing a local political campaign when Trixie Dixie Marine-One’d his wuthless arse off the White House lawn.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Obdurodon: Trump will not literally attack Biden. He is a coward. We also aren’t talking about a former athlete go to seed here. He has never done anything more physical than play golf since he was a teenager. FWIW I would bet Biden is a veteran of a few fistfights whilst growing up.
Immanentize
@Another Scott: I like Marley’s line. “With all due respect, I think it is time for people to ask what their country can do for them”
Immanentize
@Uncle Cosmo: not a crook!
Immanentize
@Just Chuck: I knew I was probably wrong but, you know, lazy.
Redshift
I never watch debates, they’re one of the few things that makes me feel anxious, and since they don’t affect the race, I don’t feel like I’m missing anything if I just catch (or even better, read) the highlights later.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Anybody wanna guess how the great Bible-Haver and Religion-Protecter is spending what my 86 YO, trump-hating, almost-daily-even-with-Covid-Mass-attending aunt calls The Lord’s Day? Here’s a hint, not that anyone really needs one.
Immanentize
@Marcopolo: I hate to tell you this, but she is correct about the vote. All the constitutional amendments. Etc. Do not create any individual right to vote — rather they create rules that govern if you are allowed the opportunity to vote. This is a big issue for some voting rights lefties like me. A constitutional amendment creating a citizen’s right to vote in certain elections would flip the burdens on proving voter suppression.
And let’s be clear — the 14 amendment specifically allows voting exclusions for those convicted of crimes.
Baud
@Immanentize: I actually didn’t like that line. Maybe ok in Mass when you’re running against a Kennedy, but it’s inconsistent with Biden’s message that we need to all step up to save our democracy.
jonas
@Starfish: Biden has one job in the debate — be totally perfect, not too aggressive, make a connection with undecided voters, be informed, but not know-it-all, show empathy, but also decisiveness, and don’t flub anything or appear to hesitate for a moment. One gaffe, and it’s game over!!!
Trump, of course, can feel free to be utterly insane, lie, fling shit and generally behave like complete ignoramus and everyone will shrug.
Sorry, I don’t make the rules, the MSM does.
Kay
@Redshift:
Biden has the thing you see with experienced lawyers, where he knows a lot so he doesn’t have to work so hard. The only way you get it is by experience but what it means is they don’t have to expend a lot of energy anticipating questions and deflecting- a lot of Trump’s appearance of “energy” is actually the frantic energy of a bullshitter- it’s REALLY hard work to pretend to know something and trick people.
90% of Trump’s day is spent covering up things he doesn’t know. It makes me tired just watching it.
Chief Oshkosh
@scott (the other one): Perfect. :)
Immanentize
@Baud: yes. It was aimed at the heart of young Joe. But there has to be a way to both call people to service and for them to also demand more from their government.
Ohio Mom
A word of advice:
Cherry-picking phrases from the “Old Testament” and using them in their most literal sense, instead of interpreting them within the context in which they were written, is irksome to we Jews.
We have a long, established tradition of critically interpreting scripture, to the point of having created, over millennia, thousands and thousands of pages of text examining how we should understand what is in the Torah, and how we should use that understanding to conduct our lives.
When non-Jews pull phrases out of the Torah to attempt to one-up other non-Jews, it often comes off as anti-Semitic. Usually, you are using our words to belittle them. You are not trying to understand them.
At the very least, you are stooping to the level of the people you are arguing with. It’s a bad look.
Finally, it is especially insulting to hear insinuations that the Christian bible and theology is somehow more moral and righteous than the Torah and Jewish belief.
Thank you.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Kay: being authentic whatever that means, and getting mad are ok. Cuz Bidens a dude. Women aren’t allowed to get mad. Makes us shrill. And hysterical. Sigh… Just venting.
debbie
@frosty:
You didn’t even have to hear her words. Her hands said it all.
brantl
@satby: pretty rude, dude…..
Fair Economist
@Immanentize:
*However* – the Constitution does *not* include every right people are supposed to have. That was a critical part of the debate over the Bill of Rights. Whether or not somebody thinks there’s a right to vote is a critical aspect to whether they should sit on the court, and ACB is on the wrong side.
mrmoshpotato
@Kay: But but, that blackout-drunk, college rapist’s life is ruined!
Don’t you remember that?!
debbie
@Kathleen:
Nice!
Immanentize
@Ohio Mom: I’ll spot you the pentateuch, but the rest of the Old Testament was a creation/curated selection of the Catholic Church. So, “anti-semitic” sounds a bit odd.
Philbert
@germy: Hmmm the drug test may get his DNA.
debbie
@Marcopolo:
I’m wondering if she, like Michelle Bachman before her, is getting any government assistance to help her and her family out.
Lapassionara
@Philbert: He’s not going to really take a drug test. He will cheat somehow. He is on all sorts of substances, so he cannot really take the test.
trnc
I wish he would, too. As far as the office: “We had republicans President Bush, President Bush, President Reagan and others before them. They respected the office. Donald doesn’t.”
Miss Bianca
@Lapassionara: There’s not going to be a drug test. It’s more of Trump’s ridiculous Insult Theater. Addressing the ‘issue’ in any terms other than that is, itself, an insult and distraction. Witness reaction to Warren’s DNA test.
I’m starting to become persuaded by the notion that we turn Trump into the very monster we fear by the very act of fearing him, or acting like there’s any possibility of anyone, anywhere, taking his weak shit seriously.
Another Scott
@Fair Economist: Yup.
And Scalia’s opinion in Heller said that localities can have reasonable restrictions on firearms, which her (excerpted) comments do not seem to acknowledge. Not to mention, Heller was a ridiculously stupid and dangerous decision – one cannot simply wave away the clear words “A well-regulated”.
Grr…
“Well, my not-in-the-Constitution interpretation that expands things I like, trump (heh) your plainly-in-the-Constitution text and decades of previous rulings that I don’t like. So there!”
GrrRrrr…
Cheers,
Scott.
(“Who recognizes that there are reasonable arguments for things that lead to unreasonable policies, and that lawyers are paid to argue about anything.”)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trnc: if I were to bet on one thing about the debate, it’s that Biden will have at least one short riff about how he respects the office, no matter who’s in it
satby
@Obdurodon: Oh don’t be silly, they both have Secret Service protection. Not going to happen.
Omnes Omnibus
@Immanentize: @Fair Economist: Oh fuck. Now we get into the debate about whether enumerating certain rights in the Bill of Rights would cause people to argue that only the enumerated rights matter. Ah, the poor neglected 9th Amendment.
debbie
@Miss Bianca:
“Vice President Biden, do you want to respond to the President calling you a sleepy-eyed pill popper?”
“When he begins his inevitable waddle down Stupid Street, I decline to follow.”
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Omnes Omnibus:
You can’t get more clear than that imo
Redshift
@A Good Woman: Stacy Abrams talks about how a lot of the nonvoters are people who’ve lost faith in politics. Not the purity types who have lost faith over a particular issue, but people who haven’t seen voting improve things for them. One of the ways to reach them is to organize around a local issue, and if they see success there, they can begin to believe (and get on board with our side.) Unfortunately, a presidential campaign is not a good vehicle for that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Goku (Amerikan Baka): You aren’t a Constitutional lawyer.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Omnes Omnibus:
Meaning what, out of curiosity? It’s written in plain language
Another Scott
@Immanentize: “Marley”??1**
Hey, Scrooge, let’s work for the public good!
Yeah, it kinda works!!
** – I assume Autocorrect fixed “Markey” for you. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
JPL
@PPCLI: whoops..
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Omnes Omnibus:
Also, I just want to say I wasn’t trying to start an argument. I thought I was supporting what you were saying. I hope I didn’t come across as hostile or anything
Omnes Omnibus
@Goku (Amerikan Baka): What rights are they talking about? How do you know? The traditional rights of an Englishman at the time of the Revolution might be a good starting point. But then that wouldn’t include the right to vote – except for a very few. The right to privacy wouldn’t be in there either. So, what are these rights (every one agrees that we have them; the 9th Amendment says so); no one can ever agree.
Redshift
@Omnes Omnibus: That is true, but I think it’s also true that having the right to vote enshrined in the Constitution would provide a basis for striking down a lot of ludicrous voter suppression practices, permanently. Which is not to say that we shouldn’t restore the Voting Rights Act. I think pursuing an amendment is a worthwhile project, even though it’s hard, because in this case most people probably don’t know that the right to vote isn’t there, and we force opponents to argue against people having the right to vote.
JPL
@Lapassionara: Biden should bring Sanjay Gupta to the debate and afterwards let trump know, Dr. Gupta will perform drug tests on them.
zhena gogolia
@Kay:
It’s so maddening. I can’t even pay attention to it.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ahem. Corn Pop.
Omnes Omnibus
@Redshift: A Voting Rights Amendment would take care of a lot of this. And continually passing a Voting Right Act as the Supreme Court knocks it down might clarify things in people’s minds.
Immanentize
@Fair Economist: But the legal positivists won the argument regarding the nature of the constitution and individual rights, no?
Juju
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m not an attorney, and I remember discussions about the third amendment being couched in military versus civilian, but wouldn’t the third amendment have a bit to do with the right to privacy?
Patricia Kayden
Leto
@NotMax: another fucking travesty of 2020 is when Adult Swim canceled The Venture Bros. AS’s new president is a fucking idiot.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
On the one hand, I don’t dare to dream, on the other hand, this makes it sound like his own polls have him shitting bricks.
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
The whole Right wing is like this now “love us! respect us! we DEMAND”
Jesus. So needy. I feel like it’s part of some fucked up abuser dynamic and I don’t want any part of it. Just back off with the abuse and then the demands to be loved that follow. I don’t want a “relationship” with these public employees. Yuck.
Immanentize
@Miss Bianca: If there were a drug test, they could grab his DNA for the E. Jean Carroll Case? ironic!
Kathleen
@WaterGirl: While I despise the institutional Catholic Church I admire and the support both the lay people and clergy who are doing God’s work.
Sab
@Ohio Mom: As a Christian with a Jewish ex-husband, I have to say well put and thank you.
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m a 10th Amendment guy, myself. :-)
piratedan
at the point right now where I hope that the next Congress comes into session (with a Dem in the WH and control of the Senate) and pass a bill making null and void all policies and executive orders that were done during the 45 Presidency. All appointments and nominations are now null and void and are now rescinded.
Point out the reasoning is that he was elected illegally with outside help and influence, charges to be brought within the next 30 days and a review of all judicial appointments also is being performed because of the financial compromise of certain GOP senators (feel free to list them and roll them out)
Let the MSM howl and wail.. and fuck ’em, becuse when the counter-intelligence op is complete, they’ll be in the next group.
they want bread and circuses, fine, enjoy the view up close and personal…
unlikely, hell yes, but there’s no way that I want to sit back and have these fucktards get away with fait accompli
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus: To add, how can we have an air force? Or the marines? Or space force? Textualists please tell me this?
Immanentize
@Another Scott: Bob Marley, Man!
Immanentize
@Redshift: This is my view of the amendment. It also will act as an overton window on statutory voting rights.
Juju
@Immanentize: I think the answer to that is because.
Kathleen
@Baud: From their perspective. But most of the Church hierarchy will disagree I’m sure. Too many Catholics want to undo Vatican II and party like it’s 1949.
Immanentize
@Kathleen: I think maybe 1933 would be a better date?
Miss Bianca
@Immanentize: Man, could you imagine if Biden put that angle on it out there? That’s the last we’d ever hear about drug tests.
Baud
@Immanentize:
Which amendment repealed prohibition? That’s my fav.
raven
@Immanentize: mon
Immanentize
@Baud: 21st! There is a pub on Beacon Hill called “The 21st Amendment” Cheers!
Immanentize
@raven: irie
Immanentize
So can we all now agree that with Cam Newton, Belichick is again proving he is the GOAT?
Omnes Omnibus
@Immanentize: No.
Chris Johnson
@brantl: Don’t worry about it, it’s Balloon Juice. And honestly I don’t know shit about Catholicism, so I thought I might shut the hell up :)
I still think Trump’s gonna try to appoint Barrett the new Pope. It’s the perfect batshittery, for him. I mean, if that was actually something you could do and if everyone was like Trump, that would be an unbeatable move…
evodevo
@oatler.: He won’t be physically able to this time…with that suspected stroke he had, it’s all he can do to walk to the podium and then hang onto it for dear life for the remainder of the appearance…
James E Powell
@satby:
If that would work, I wouldn’t have two Trump loving brothers and all those facebook friends from high school wouldn’t have been posting photos of Hillary with blood on her hands.
White guys who call out hateful, ignorant bigot white guys have as much impact as anyone else.
Ruckus
@Kay:
Yes, yes they are.
I believe they know they are shit but don’t care, because they think everyone is shit, and that their “devotion” to religion, specifically a religion that allows hate, says that the only race that matters is the one jesus was caucasian, is the best race. Of course there is a lot of proof that this is bullshit so they want everyone they step on, steal from, hate, screw over, to admit that they are the chosen ones. They think everyone is the same, they just happen to be better at those things that matter, which is everything in the book they worship which are all the bad parts, that they are supposed to not do. Remember that thing we call common sense? It’s called common sense because everyone is supposed to have some, not because everyone does.
Kathleen
@Immanentize: I picked 1949 because that’s the year I was born. I’m going with my memories of the 50’s and 60’s before Vatican II. My stomach was gripped in fear of sinning for the first 20 years of my life. But I’m curious about significance of 1933.
VeniceRiley
@debbie:
My fantasy Biden: “It’s pathetic, disgusting and gross how much he likes to call people names, don’t you agree?”
I call a “MALARKEY” withing the first 15 minutes.
Geminid
@Immanentize: “the rest of the old testament” may have been curated by the Catholic church. After all, they curated everything. But it was not a creation of the Catholic church.
Butter Emails
@geg6:
The problem is it isn’t mainstream Catholics that sell their souls to the Federalist society, lie their asses off and get crammed into the federal courts by Republicans.
Kay
I’m taking the online training for “legal professionals” for the Biden campaign. I was very involved in Obama’s, which was very good. It was good because the lead lawyer was a litigator from Toledo and he’s a demanding perfectionist which I knew going in. He started with “we are going to meet Saturdays at 8 AM” and the woman next to me mouthed “what?!” at me :)
This is online so no insanely early weekend meetings with control freaks. I don’t know that I’ll do any good out here in the boonies. Maybe they’ll send me somewhere exciting.
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
Well, that’s because it’s true. However – there is that possibility and that reality, people do take his shit seriously. They support him exactly because of his shit, weak or not. The reason he does most of the crap he does is to gain support and admiration. He doesn’t care how he does that, only that it’s successful. And it is, to all the wrong people, people who think and believe the same things he does.
Fair Economist
@Immanentize: When you have an amendment as explicit as the Ninth, the legal positivist position can never truly win. The Ninth doesn’t get cited much, sure, but it was cited in some concurrences to Griswold, which is probably one of the rulings ACB is gunning for.
Omnes Omnibus
@Juju: There are many bits and pieces in the Constitution from which one may infer a right to privacy. That is what Douglas did in the Griswold decision. There is, however, no explicit statement of such a right.
Immanentize
@Kathleen: nazis
Omnes Omnibus
@Fair Economist: The whole attack on Roe is one phase of a war on Griswold.
Kropacetic
All I know is that my Trump-loving family and friends are just dying to see Biden on stage with Trump. I won’t even pretend to entertain the notion that their insulting predictions about Biden’s performance will bear out.
So, will they just see what they want to see or will it serve as an adequate clue-by-four when Biden doesn’t spend the debate drooling on himself?
Immanentize
@Fair Economist: Penumbra!!!!
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Immanentize:
@Fair Economist:
I’d also like to add that if recent history is any indication, nothing is ever truly completely settled or won. That cuts both ways.
At the same time, I really wonder how ACB thinks she would get away with undoing something so fundamental to modern American society as Griswold, which is 60 year old precedent, without major backlash
It would give Dems the justification and cover to pack the Surpeme Court. Hell, her writings and interviews in the past where she thinks only “virtuous citizens” (whatever the fuck that means) should be allowed to vote is justification enough
Kropacetic
I’m sorry, the framers said “2+2.” They never said “4.”
Omnes Omnibus
You already know the answer to this.
Butter Emails
@Kropacetic:
It’s a cult. 95% will probably see what they want to see or else rationalize what they see to meet their expectations. Maybe 5% will have the scales lifted from their eyes if we are lucky.
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus: The frontal attack on Griswold will come with an attack on mail order Plan B.
JaySinWA
@Ruckus: We have to take seriously that T means what he says in refusing to accept election results. We also have to push back on anyone who supports that statement. We need to disable the enablers.
Kropacetic
@Omnes Omnibus: Hope springs eternal from a well of delusion.
Omnes Omnibus
@Immanentize: That is definitely possible.
James E Powell
@Goku (Amerikan Baka):
Religious fanatics – and she is a fanatic – do not care about backlash or the misery they inflict on others. It is all God’s Will.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
a good idea, Biden has a good digital team, they can flood twitter, which will flood reporters
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s good. Really good.
JPL
@Fair Economist: or others
How does Griswold work with the ninth amendment. The right to privacy shouldn’t be an unfair burden to others. I can understand the ACA because of the financial burden, but without a mandate, wouldn’t that excuse be mute.
Immanentize
@James E Powell: Calvinists all — God is good to them and punishes their enemies, do if any punishing is gonna happen — yay God! Except when they get punished — homosexuals!
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I refuse to watch (don’t want to shoot my TV), but will say this – if any moderator asks “what is the nicest thing each of you can say about the other”, I want Joe to go off on him for asking such grievous bullshit at a serious time.
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
It’s a common complaint of mine but it applies especially to abortion. There hasn’t been enough demands on the Right to get specific. Walk us thru the ban. How does it work? How does it work with miscarriages and physician intervention there? How does it work with pharma abortion, which are now 40 some percent of abortions?
I sit there and listen to Democrats get grilled on every facet of a health care plan yet the Right just bellows “ban it!” on abortion and that’s enough. The miscarriage issue is a real question. It’s a problem for them. They’re going to be doing “intent” analysis of women showing up in emergency rooms bleeding. Most of the high profile cases in other countries where women died were not abortion at all- they were a refusal to intervene in a miscarriage or a high risk delivery because of a ban on abortion. This WILL happen.
JPL
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: That would work.
Uncle Cosmo
At least since 1930, when Brüning became the last significant Reichskanzler of the Weimar Republic. (You could look it up. :^p)
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
If LBJ lost Cronkite……..
If Dump lost The Rock……?
JPL
@Kay: A friend’s DIL had a miscarriage at nineteen weeks which would have been investigated as a crime had it occurred a week later. A miscarriage that late is distressing by itself, never mind the state coming by to interview your.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
A problem with that is that you’re making an argument from adverse consequences. That doesn’t matter to the pro-forced birth true believers. To them, abortion is evil and that’s that.
There’s a related critique of anarcho-capitalists, often dubbed “But who will pick the cotton?”
I suppose it might make a difference with non-true believers by convincing them how crazy “Pro-Lifers” are
raven
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch: fuck lbj
Kropacetic
I said that to a date of mine and he took that as a cue to spend our date playing video cassettes of old LBJ speeches.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@James E Powell:
Maybe, but I’m sure she’ll care when she and her fellow fascists are reduced to a minority on the Court
Kay
Elissa Slotkin is really talented. There’s a split screen and the Republican is so chastened he’s nodding along sympathetically with her as she explains her mother’s preexisting condition. She also tells him to grow up, but in a very polite way. He seems to agree – he could probably be more mature.
She’s Michigan, in a Trumpy district.
Omnes Omnibus
@Goku (Amerikan Baka): No, she is making a perfectly sensible legal argument. If you want to ban a behavior, you need to be able to define that behavior with precision.
Nelle
@Kay: And it is sticking to their soles. And souls.
Ivan X
@Ohio Mom: Yay. Thanks. Easy fast to you, if you are.
piratedan
isn’t it awesome that Trump gets to demand everything/anything of anyone and never has to put up anything himself… people have been proving themselves to this self-aggrandizing asshat for decades and all that we get back is bupkis…
never has to show his taxes
never has divest himself of his businesses
never has to explain himself
never has to answer for his nepotism
never has to answer for having the most campaign workers convicted of crimes
never has to answer for non-compliance for government forms and requirements…
yet now, Joe Biden has to answer charges of pill-popping from the guy who has uttered the most provable lies in the history of our country and the media will sit there straight-faced and suggest that Biden has to do just that and a refusal to do so is somehow incriminating or damning?
JaySinWA
There was a lot of supposedly informed speculation that Clarence Thomas was going to retire at the end of the session. That evaporated even before Ginsberg died. I wonder what happened and if he is prepared to hang on until the next R president.
raven
@Kropacetic: “We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10,000 miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves.”
Kay
@Goku (Amerikan Baka):
I think you could reach women. Polling says most women support a right to choose, but in my experience there’s a categorization issue with it. They put it in the “abortion” box and what Roe really did is it took a whole area of interventions in pregnancy and told the state “here you may not go”. None of this ever had to be discussed because Roe was there so there was no discussion of something like miscarriage intervention. It wasn’t needed. It was in the Roe roped off area- just the woman and the physician. That won’t be true anymore. The state is going to be in ALL of it, from conception to delivery. They have to be- the Right set the measure as “life at conception”. At conception.
Abortion is just one piece of what it means. It’s huge. It makes every pregnant women subject to state intervention between her and her provider for the whole pregnancy. It can’t NOT do that. When they take out the Roe line- the fence around that area- the whole thing becomes up for grabs.
I know women will regret it but I also think Right wingers will regret it. It is a REALLY hard legal problem to solve. No one has ever solved it. Instead they settled on a kind of truce.
ThresherK
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Dr. Jill did us proud.
Jake Tapper really can’t help doing this to any Democrat, can he?
Immanentize
@Geminid: maybe, maybe not. But the idea that anyone owns a text’s or a poem’s or a work of art’s meaning is absurd. The creators know this best of all.
Immanentize
@JaySinWA: Thomas can always retire after the election if Biden wins. Plenty of time to install a replacement in the lame duck period
JPL
@Kay: Females will die.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I sometimes think of The Rock as the woke version of Arnold Schwarzenegger. He started in wrestling (very successfully) and then moved very successfully into movies and TV, using his real name, Dwayne Johnson. Along with the very successful Fast and Furious movies, he’s been in the two successful Jumanji movies, as well as a successful TV show Ballers (which is where I first saw John David Washington, Denzel’s kid), playing a former football player turned agent. He is very good in comedies as well as action flicks.
And he is a POC, being half Black and half Samoan.
Brachiator
@Goku (Amerikan Baka):
A variation of this might be said to be the rationale behind some idiots who hate the lockdown and other steps being taken to deal with the pandemic. This might even have been the underlying belief behind a state court decision saying that a governor could not impose pandemic controls.
In a nutcase shell, these people believe that “liberty” is so important that it imposes a duty to die on everyone else.
Of course, I don’t know whether these judges were safely sheltered when they rendered their decision, but they did not seem to need to offer an alternative method of dealing with the virus.
Anarcho-capitalists are, of course, a contradiction. They want to live in a society, but not have rules imposed on them. A society exists because the people who live in it agree on some basic rules, and compromise, accepting some rules that they may not entirely like or agree with.
But if someone thinks that they can invent an anarcho-capitalist paradise out there somewhere, they are welcome to it. It would be a social media hit.
ETA: And of course, there are plain old anarchists, whose beliefs offer a similar dead end. Anarcho-capitalists aren’t all that special.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Immanentize:
I know you’re talking about legal arguments, but I really wish a certain segment of Trekkies of the “Kurtzman and Jar Jar Abrams have DESTROYED Gene’s Vision” would get Death of the Author
Fair Economist
@JPL:
The Ninth Amendment just says there are other rights besides those specifically in the Constitution. Several justices discussed it as a basis for a right to privacy.
Really the Ninth is just an honest statement of the limitations of any document. People have rights, but exactly what is and isn’t a right is a hard question, and there’s never going to be a simple pat list.
I’m a little puzzled that legal positivism is so dominant in interpreting the Constitution. The primary author, Madison, opposed the Ninth on the grounds, basically, that nobody would be so stupid as to believe that kind of doctrine. You’d think the textualists, at least, would pay attention to that. /sarcasmsinceIknowtheyareflaminghypocrites.
Kay
@Goku (Amerikan Baka):
I had a “fall off a cliff” delivery. Everything was fine and then very quickly it was not fine and people were running around panicking. They have to make decisions. What Roe did is it said “this is in the area the state can’t go” so no one had to think about whether I would be “permanently disabled” or any of the other language that supposedly just restricts abortion but as a practical matter HAS to be applied to all pregnancies and all miscarriages and all deliveries. Now they’ll have to think about it and it is a bear of a thing to try to criminalize. It’s a nightmare legal problem. Right wingers like to bitch about Roe as poorly reasoned but you try it. They landed on Roe because no one had anything better. They still don’t have anything better and that’s because it’s really difficult.
They should be asked these questions. They can’t answer them, because no one can.
Patricia Kayden
taumaturgo
@scott (the other one): Humans beings have a neurological propensity to believe bullshit and silicon valley has figured out a way to monetize this weakness. By fanny the flames of fake news, conspiracy theories and disinformation we rush into outrage and fear thus replacing kindness and wisdom. We have broken into separate tribes making the “other” evil, vile, cruel, stupid and unworthy and conversely our tribe can’t never do wrong. Controversy, violent disputes and zero compromising to take on social media is canceling democracy.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@SFAW: Nicely quoted and played!
Uncle Cosmo
@Kathleen: The Vatican signed the Reichskonkordat with the Third Reich on July 20, 1933. After having signed a concordat with Fascist Italy in 1929.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Brachiator:
Oh I agree. Pretty much everybody on the political spectrum, including and especially other anarchists, shits on AnCaps. The ones I’ve interacted with are genuinely terrible, self-righteous people who believe in a ton disinformation/conspiracy theories. They’re not the intellectual heavyweights they imagine themselves to be
Brachiator
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan):
Yeah, there has been an interesting trajectory to his career. I liked him in the Jumanji movies. To be fair, he kind of shoehorned his way into the Fast and Furious series, which previously focused on Vin Diesel, Paul Walker and their crew. The addition of the Rock appears to have caused some tension and ego battles between various parties.
Kinda ignoring his black heritage here. His father is Black Canadian.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@JPL:
ugh, that is a sign of a sick country and a warped theocracy. If you told most people the government did that in Iran, they’d scream “Barbarians!”
Sab
@Kay: Yes. I married into a big Catholic family and all of my nieces were rabidly pro-life in high school. Twenty years later, after marriages and children and some failed pregnancies, they have pretty much toned down their rhetoric. They still don’t like the general idea of abortion, but Ohio law is getting right up to the line of being quite dangerous to women’s life, health and continued fertility.
JPL
@Fair Economist: Thank you.
Kay
@Patricia Kayden:
His life must suck. He told the followers that Biden was senile and that’s not true so to cover that lie he has to tell another one- that Biden takes drugs. All day, every day. Tells a lie, tells another one to cover up the prior. All his energy goes to either lying about something he said he would do and didn’t do or a whole set of lies about people, each one covering up the last.
He lied and said Obama and Clinton would be arrested. To cover up that lie he invented the whole elaborate story about the deep state, and how everyone is corrupt because obviously they aren’t arrested so he had to say smoething. Every day for 50 years. This is what he does.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
I agree we should challenge them. And I do think asking these questions will help people who aren’t true pro-life believers see our side. I just don’t think it will matter much to the Pro-Lifers themselves or the cynical men who want to control women’s bodies. After all, facts don’t matter to fascists. Which wasn’t what you were arguing. I guess I maybe jumped the gun a bit
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
If you give me a week, maybe I’ll think of something…
Ivan X
I have two friends, I’m sorry to say, who are undecided. They are not stupid. What’s undecided, I think, is that they’re basically racists, even if they know that racism is bad. So, deep down, Trump’s their guy. But they also know that Trump is a corrupt scumbag. So they’re really looking for any reason to pull the lever for him, even though they know they shouldn’t.
One was a full on Bernie Bro, who’s convinced that the Clintons were the most corrupt people who ever lived, and lives in Portland, and sees BLM protests as being threatening and dangerous to his way of life in that de facto segregated city (my interpretation; he would say that they are violent and destructive and the media is refusing to report them as such). So he’s waiting for “the debates” and is concerned about “the 400 neocons” who are supporting Biden because if they are able to exert their influence we could end up with another Iraq. Nonsense, of course, but he’s looking for a reason.
The other is an old school multigenerational deep Brooklynite who identifies as a libertarian, loved Reagan for saying that government is the problem, and has racism so deeply embedded into him you couldn’t get it out by fracking. But he voted for Obama and is also a thoroughly decent person to people of all shades, when he’s not consciously choosing to be an asshole for laughs. He is a hard person to make sense of.
I have given serious thought as to whether I need to divest myself of their friendships but have come down on the side of the fact that people like this exist, and they’re not completely unreachable, and nor are they dogmatists, so it is better that I have the opportunity to engage in dialogue with them, and also better that I not retreat to my own echo chamber where I can make myself feel better by never hearing what I don’t want to.
JaySinWA
@Immanentize: I just took a look back at the Thomas retirement rumor mill. It looks like a lot of wishful thinking from both sides. There was even an Alito/Thomas retirement rumor out there. Thomas has been quoted in the past about never retiring. At 72 he could be around for awhile.
evodevo
@p.a.: I imagine Steve Schmidt could give you a hint, seeing as how he had to do the same for Caribou Barbie…lol
Matt McIrvin
@Starfish: The 2016 race was far more up-and-down than 2020, and the debates did move the needle massively in Hillary Clinton’s direction–her polling lead had been hair-thin and it expanded to its ceiling after the debates. But then it had one more nosedive right at the end, after the Comey letter. Had James Comey made a different decision about publicizing the story about Weiner’s laptop, we’d be talking about the debates as the pivotal moment when Hillary won it all.
This time around, the race is far more stable and Biden basically needs to keep it wide as he can, not screw up and run out the clock. It might be better for him if they didn’t happen at all, but on the other hand, Trump acting like a dumbass on camera (which he will) will help keep media attitudes from drifting toward treating him as a normal president again.
Brachiator
@Patricia Kayden:
I love the droll humor in this. Trump leaves a trail of bullshit wherever he goes.
Richard
@Steeplejack (phone): Yes. It is hard to understand.
Immanentize
@Kay: Wait til rich people start leaving their property to frozen embryos. The shit will then rightly hit the fan of what really matters — money.
taumaturgo
@Kay: Roe and abortion is a distraction for the Supreme Court to hand decisions to curtail normal folks powers and to make certain the law and order status quo that by far favors whites is not alter in any meaningful way. As Jeffry St Clair from Counter-punch puts it: “.. Yet when did the institution that rendered Dred Scott (1857), Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), Korematsu (1944), Bowers v. Hardwick, upholding Georgia’s sodomy statute (1986) Bush v. Gore (2000), Exxon Shipping v. Baker, revoking punitive damages for Exxon Valdez wreck (2008) and Citizens United (2010) acquire this glittering aura of legitimacy?
Kay
@Sab:
It’s this weird thing where they talk about it like it’s 1984. Okay, in vitro. Remember- at conception. So does that mean you have to have 8 babies? They never get asked.
If I said “I’m abolishing fee simple in land transfers” I would get a lot of questions because a lot of things are grounded in it. Anti-abortion people get NONE. They just blithely announced 10 years ago that we had “persons” at conception, which is like an earthquake that would affect just about every area of law. People just nodded, “oh sure, that’s fine”.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay:
I think it’s simpler than that. Trump says Biden is senile and takes drugs to cope because Trump is senile and takes drugs to cope.
Brachiator
@Ivan X:
Pump the brakes!
I wonder why he voted for Obama. Did he previously vote Republican or had he voted for other Democratic Party candidates before?
Just curious, and maybe this provides some wedge for persuasion and change of heart.
Immanentize
@Uncle Cosmo: Thank you — I had a student zoom meeting and couldn’t look that up for Kathleen.
JPL
@Ivan X:Reagan for saying that government is the problem,
Yeah wait until the state bans the sale of pregnancy tests without a prescription, because they want to follow women who might be of a reproductive age.
Sebastian
@Baud:
Apologies if someone already said that but this is quite significant. DJT has a big following in professional wrestling where he has been active for many decades. His whole 2016 campaign was textbook pro wrestling with heels, drama, cliffhangers, trash talking, etc.
The Rock endorsing Biden is significant.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
patrick II
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
“Factcheck.com” is (surprisingly) available. Type in the name, Media options pops up and asks if you want to make an offer. If I was a richer guy or a Biden confidant, I would buy it, if not too extortionist.
Brachiator
@taumaturgo:
So, are you saying that women are neither “normal” nor “folks?”
Immanentize
@Ivan X:
You are warned, I am stealing this!
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: There’s going to be a push to get SCOTUS to declare zygotes persons from conception, and if it happens, the ramifications will be both horrifying and science-fiction-bizarre, to an extent that they don’t even seem to realize. It would mean that the most important medical project to take on would be an Apollo-moonshot-level effort to change human biology to prevent embryonic implantation from ever spontaneously failing (which it does much of the time).
JaySinWA
@Brachiator: Why yes, I believe he/she/they is/are saying that.
Immanentize
@JaySinWA: my favorite quote was from Justice Marshall who said, “I was appointed for life, and I intend to fulfill my appointment.” Almost made it; Ruth did.
James E Powell
We’re heading for TBogg Country!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Sebastian:
good points. Is Linda MacMahon still in the cabinet? Head of SBA? (google says she stepped down) IIRC the capital of the trump foundation mostly came from them.
Ivan X
@Immanentize: I’m declaring it copyleft. No licensing fees or anything.
Mary G
QAnons must be unhappy the Deep State seems to have killed off the Hunter Biden bullshit:
Immanentize
@Kay: a fireman gets called to building on fire. To the left is a young child leaning out the window for help! To the right is an in vitro clinic. Which way must the fireman turn?
JPL
@Immanentize: Judges serve for life, but there is an idea floating around, that you can rotate them after a period of time, say twenty years. Have you heard about that?
JaySinWA
@Immanentize: Kind of like a prison sentence, but with regular furloughs
@James E Powell: Ixnay onway BoggTay. You will jinx it. Whoops I see a new thread has already dawned.
Ivan X
@Brachiator: He had previously voted for both parties, with a Republican lean. I think in Obama’s case, he just seemed like, well, something new. (Which McCain was certainly not.) Which was part of Trump’s appeal the first time around for him, too. I wouldn’t be surprised if some outsider with a strong personality were running instead of Biden whether he’d hop onboard for that person more readily.
I also think in the cases of both people they feel a little more casual about their vote, and able to indulge their desire to feel like very special free thinking individualists, because the electoral outcome in NY and OR appears to be a foregone conclusion.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Immanentize:
Hey, did I say something that rubbed you the wrong way? If I did I apologize. I’ve just noticed that well, you haven’t responded to any of my replies. Which I get happens since there are so many comments
Matt McIrvin
@Juju: The primary Republican attack strategy for decades has been to open by accusing your opponent of your own faults and the things you’re blatantly doing. That way, if they point out the truth, it just looks like a weak “I know you are but what am I” rejoinder rather than an obviously correct description.
Think of 2016. Two of the primary accusations against Hillary Clinton was that she was involved in sexual abuse and was stealing money from a fake charitable foundation. Those are both true statements about Donald Trump, not Hillary Clinton, and anyone who could read knew it at the time. But it was effective for him to throw them at Hillary Clinton.
patrick II
@Kay:
I would love to see Joy Reid moderate a debate. It’s never going to happen though.
JPL
@Immanentize: Here I was thinking about miscarriages, and ectopic pregnancies. Time to think outside the box. If one had to carry all the embryo, they’d all die. So much for the pro-life party.
Captain C
@oatler.: “You’re walking around back there like Lurch, Donnie! What the hell is wrong with you?”
Immanentize
@JPL: yes, but it is unconstitutional. I do not know how anyone could get around the explicit life time appointment clause. Remember, there is only one Court in the constitution — the Supreme Court. All others are Congressional creations. Congress could create a pre-Supreme Court with rotating panels of fed appellate judges, which would be a great idea given how few cases the Supreme Court actually takes each year. Kind of like the relationship between courts of appeals panels (3 judges) versus en banc review (all the appellate judges in the circuit). I kinda like that idea.
Brachiator
@JPL:
It’s moot. Moot. Moot.
I think this may be a case where people hear the word “moot,” but don’t often see it written.
Anyway, Fair Economist had a good take on the privacy issue.
Madison also did not want people to believe that a right did not exist if it were not specifically laid out in the Constitution. But this is what a lot of people, including some so-called legal scholars, have come to believe.
There are also some who believe that “state rights” are somehow greater than the rights of the people.
Steeplejack (phone)
Nice fresh open thread upstairs!
JPL
@Immanentize: lol The reason that I laughed out loud was it was an opinion from…… let’s just say a legal scholar.
Brachiator
@Ivan X:
This makes sense. But the interesting thing is that he was able to get outside his racism. I wonder if there might be something that could make him go for Biden.
I’ve known die-hard racists who could never voted for a nonwhite person. Their stupid bigotry is too deeply ingrained to permit any exception. These are the people who would rather die than be treated by a black doctor, for example.
evodevo
@There go two miscreants: there is ONE rather confusing passage where Jesus tells the disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword (Luke 22:36), but it’s interpretation is rather obscure, and has caused no end of dithering on the part of theologians for hundreds of years…
Just Chuck
@Kay:
You appear to be making the mistake that they care about such little things such as consistency, logic, rationality, truth, or even the meaning of language itself. When faced with arguments on those grounds, they will simply screech louder.
And it works. I wish I knew how to mount rational defenses of rationality itself.
beckya57
@ThresherK: Me first!
Just Chuck
@evodevo: Gosh it’s almost as if that book were just a random assortment of tales written by folks putting words in some character’s mouth.
Brachiator
@Steeplejack (phone):
And I was just warming up to this one.
Thanks for the heads-up!
JPL
@Brachiator: Amy doesn’t seem like a state rights type of person as it pertains to Roe and regulations. Nothing in her background suggests she is going to vote that way.
I’d love for Kay to be able to question her, just to watch her squirm.
beckya57
I’m going to be a major downer here, and say that none of this matters. Trump has held onto his 40-45%, and they’re advantageously distributed in the Electoral College. Votes on Election Day will probably favor him because more Republicans will vote in person. He will declare himself the winner, and then he and Barr will weaponize the court system, including the new 6-3 SCOTUS, to declare all the votes not counted by Election Day as tainted and thus should not be counted. This will probably be successful. The end.
SFAW
@Uncle Cosmo:
Yeah, I transposed the u and e, but there’s only one “n” in her name.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@beckya57:
Not according to state level polling in several battleground states Trump needs to win. And I don’t think the Supreme Court is going to invalidate the votes of Republicans who vote by mail/early in person. There are more races besides just President
janesays
This obviously won’t happen, but there is a tiny part of me that just wishes Biden would physically beat the ever living shit out of Donald Trump on the stage the first time Trump utters the word, “Hunter”.
I know it’s wrong of me to want that, but nobody in this country deserves that kind of response more than Donald Trump.
Miss Bianca
@Ivan X: Well, the other consideration is plainly and simply, whether you *like* that person enough to put up with all the other crap. I have one Libertarian friend who means the world to me, despite the fact that we don’t agree politically. I just think he’s an awesome dude anyway. But that’s certainly not true for all the right-winger/libertarians I know – and damn, I seem to know a lot of them.
SFAW
@Mary G:
Barr has been pretty “resourceful” in doing the Traitor-in-Chief’s bidding, both explicit and “well, I think that’s what he wants” types, so I’m planning on waiting until 1/20.21 before saying that.
For values of “resourceful” == lying, illegal behavior, treason, etc.
J R in WV
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Every time I am forced to hear Lindsey’s voice begging for help, I am forced to help – Mr Harrison. Over and over, we donate to Mr Harrison. Fuq you, Lindsey!
SFAW
@janesays:
Only a tiny part? You’re a much more charitable person than I
Not sure I follow. How is it “wrong”? It’s what any rational American wants.
SFAW
@Just Chuck:
Almost like a print version of “Attack of the Killer Tomatoes”?
Richard
@zhena gogolia: We actually saw one of our neighbors take a Biden/Harris sign from a yard and throw it into the ditch. We were like “did you see that!” We went back and picked it up. There are a lot of poorly educated, frightened people in this part of the western United States. Where we live it could actually be dangerous to have a political sign in your yard.
Miss Bianca
@Richard:
Tell me about it.
Brachiator
@beckya57:
But you are still going to vote for Biden, right?
Michael
Every once in a while I feel the need to post something like this:
THIS COMMENT SYSTEM TOTALLY SUCKS.
No up or down votes. Replies don’t attach to the original comment. When you read a reply and click on the link to the original comment you go back to the original comment and lose the reply somewhere down below. To post a comment you have to go down to the end of the thread maybe hundreds of comments down. And anything else you can think of.
The original posts are great. The comments are constructive and interesting and lacking in name calling etc. However:
THIS COMMENT SYSTEM TOTALLY SUCKS.
Immanentize
@Brachiator: you don’t really think she is coming back, do you?
Kay
@Immanentize:
There’s a potential person inside another person, the state, and a doctor. Sort out all those rights and duties- good luck. I’m amazed they did as well as they did with Roe. Of course they turned to medicine. They were desperate for some kind of rational lifeline – they would have been drowning forever. No one ever comes up with a replacement but everyone confidently announces it’s a bad decision. Of course it’s bad- it’s an impossible question and it’s only gotten more complicated as the decades passed and they’ve only addressed 1/10 of the issues around it- they haven’t even been asked anything difficult yet.
James E Powell
@Richard:
There are people like that all over this great land. I live in a red blotch in the blue state of California. Trump signs the size of garage doors. White pickup trucks with half the tailgate covered with right-wing hatred & paranoia bumper stickers.
And people like Amy Coney Barrett, Ted Cruz, etc., show that education alone is not the answer.
WaterGirl
@J R in WV:
Did you see the :: sad :: commercial about that from the Lincoln Project? Utter mockery.
WaterGirl
@Michael: duly noted.
James E Powell
@WaterGirl:
I like the Lincoln Project ads. They are usually timely, on point, and entertaining. But I get the impression that they aren’t moving the needle at all. This may be true of all ads in our post-post-modern world. We only pay attention to that which confirms or reinforces what we already believe.
J R in WV
@raven:
Fuck Tricky Dick Nixon!!! also too.
Fair Economist
@Ivan X: Thanks for make the effort to reach your friends. For similar reasons I’m polite and friendly to my mother’s friends and my step family even thought often I want to scream at most of them.
patrick II
@Starfish:
The NYTimes might have them. Maggie Haberman on twitter says he only paid $750 in taxes the year he was elected president.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@WaterGirl: Open thread upstairs? Why do you hate Tbogg Units?
Captain C
WaterGirl
@James E Powell:
Is there a reason to think that, or is that your gut feeling?
I think a lot of them are simply aimed directly at Trump, and this one has to be humiliating for L. Graham.
Immanentize
@Captain C: not too much for me!
WaterGirl
@?BillinGlendaleCA: A phone/tablet user texted me and asked for a new thread. It gets tough on phones and tablets when the threads get too long.
I will note this in my “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” BJ notebook. :-)
(virtual notebook that doesn’t actually exist)
Fair Economist
@Immanentize:
In the abstract that’s appealing (you might say) but would the resulting intermediate courts be all that useful? To what extent would the precedents they attempt to set stand given that roughly half the appellate judges are “burn-it-down” reactionaries and the next case will get a new random draw? Before the Republicans packed the courts with nutcases stare decisis would have carried us through, but not anymore.
Fair Economist
@patrick II:
I assume she’s holding the details of his crimes back for a book? To be published *after* the election in her case, of course.
PJ
@Kay: Abortion is a complicated issue, at least on the edges, and resolution by court decisions is not a good way to go about it. But, on the liberal end, few legislators want to deal with this hot potato, and on the conservative end, they’re only willing to legislate an outright ban on everything, including morning after pills (and, of course, being pro-life ends at birth, and they don’t want to provide any assistance to struggling mothers or families.)
Richard
@Ohio Mom: Thank you.
Captain C
@PPCLI: “Here’s the difference between our sons, Donnie: mine served his country and died of cancer. Yours served himself by ripping off a children’s cancer charity.”
PJ
@WaterGirl: Apparently some of them are only broadcast in the DC area on certain Fox programs, and they do work in getting their target audience upset.
Immanentize
@Fair Economist: they would be super helpful in non-constitutional law circuit split cases. The Supreme Court does not just sit as the arbiter of constitutional law issues, it also sits as the top of the appellate system for what I like to tell my students is “the state of ‘Federal.’. So a lot of their cases are about federal statutes (civil or criminal), pretty run of the mill statutory interpretation questions (like the application of the vacancies Act), etc. If the panel messed up, SCOTUS could correct.
Chris Johnson
@Kropacetic: Kinky!
Brachiator
@Fair Economist:
The NYTimes might have them. Maggie Haberman on twitter says he only paid $750 in taxes the year he was elected president.
Haberman working for the NY Times and hoarding material for a book is an ongoing conflict of interest that is just ridiculous.
Fair Economist
@Immanentize: Fair points, and it would be a good solid way to de-pack the appellate courts without being overtly political (e.g. add three judges or whatever to each court, and then have the members rotate to the new Assistant Supremes, leaving the same number on the existing courts as before, but now with a substantial fraction of wingnuts replaced).
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Fair Economist: My plan would be that these would be panels of the Court itself much like the appeals courts operate.
?BillinGlendaleCA
I guess no one wants comment 500.
Chris Johnson
@?BillinGlendaleCA: LOL! Congrats, Bill :
Happy TBogg, everyone!
Geminid
Now, let’s break the Overton Window!
PJ
@?BillinGlendaleCA: If it’s just panels of the Supreme Court, how would this be different from the way the Court acts now, except that it would place an extra burden on whichever members are adjudicating that federal non-constitutional questions? Unless you are planning to greatly expand the S. Ct., this doesn’t seem like much of a solution. The “federal non-constitutional question” court seems like a better idea, though that should also get either a) an expanded appellate bench with members from each circuit who rotate in for a particular period, or b) a dedicated bench of judges.
Kathleen
@Immanentize: Yup. Thought about that after I posted my question to you. Catholic Church has so much to answer for.
J R in WV
@Brachiator:
I would agree that those people should do as they believe is best for them.
Omnes Omnibus
@beckya57: I’m going to say that the current state of play doesn’t support your conclusion.
Kathleen
@Uncle Cosmo: Thank you! I realized that after I asked the question (geezer posting). The Church has so much to answer for.
Richard
@Michael: I have to agree. Probably they have their reasons.
It does slow me down a little bit but that might be a good thing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Michael: Email Cole. Make sure you keep the all caps.
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
I don’t even have to hear him, thankfully, I just give some money to Mr. Harrison. The fact that Mr. Harrison is out raising him in money by a substantial amount is just icing. Good icing. And the more he whines means to me that he’s in a real bind. Which is a great place for him to be. I think the word for Lindsey is a sycophant if I understand my dictionary correctly, another phrase would be kiss ass.
Kathleen
@Immanentize: Thank you, also for responding to my question.
There go two miscreants
@evodevo: Thank you for the correction — I should have checked online but was lazy! I’ll have to look that one up — no recollection of it from my misspent youth.
Ruckus
@Michael:
Says you. The blog owner and the vast majority of the posters, when asked said not nested comments. When you reply to the comment with the button at the end of a comment, that’s what puts the original comment owners name in your comment, thereby referencing the original comment. You want up or down votes go to twitter. You can love or reply to any comment. Oh wait you can do that here as well, you just have to actually type something. Is that too much effort?
Just a thought, maybe the comment system here is fine, it’s just one commenter doesn’t like to have to actually be a part of the discussion…..
Brachiator
@Michael:
What would be the point? Do you want prizes as well?
Brachiator
@Immanentize:
No, but I wanted to respond in a way that didn’t react to the doom speculation.
Geminid
@Michael: There is a box at the top left hand corner of the page that will drop you right to the comment space. Cleverly disguised by the word, “COMMENT.” I know some people like the idea, but personally, I think upvotes and downvotes are for kids. Of all ages.
Omnes Omnibus
@Geminid: But without that how can we determine commenter stats? How can we tell whose comment is worthy of being taken seriously?
Richard
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Why not? Go check on our friend, the “what’s that bug guy” and see if he is ok. He hasn’t said anything since August. What’s That Bug? He lives near you. I think that neighborhood is called Mt Washington or something like that.
WaterGirl
@J R in WV:
Second time today you have made me laugh out loud.
The Lodger
@Starfish: I don’t think $140,000 is “let’s hook up” money. It’s more like, “any problems show up, don’t call us, you can fix them yourself” money. DT may have paid for a lot of abortions, whether or not they were ever going to happen. Expensive method of birth control, but there you go.
CapnMubbers
@Richard:
OT: I’ve been looking for you in the comments—thank you for bringing Gold Butte to my notice. I will happily do a little hiking there once this unseasonable heat relents.
Mary Ellen Sandahl
@NotMax:
How about “goons”?
Mary Ellen Sandahl
@zhena gogolia:
Yes. Besides the gender difference, the intertubes inform that Hillary is 5’5″ and Joe is 6′.
Captain C
@Immanentize: This could make for good dystopian sci fi. For example, an executor keeping embryos frozen to keep control of (and taking management fees from) the associated assets in trust
Matt McIrvin
@James E Powell: We don’t have the counterfactual. The race is remarkably stable–there’s been some barely perceptible tightening but Biden’s lead is basically holding. For all we know without all these ads it would be evaporating. The mean US politics currently gravitates to is a strict partisan split with an EC advantage for the Republicans; anything that helps hold that off is welcome.
Matt McIrvin
@Michael: The commentariat here generally hate threaded comments and will never accept them.
And I personally think upvotes/downvotes are kind of socially corrosive, especially visible downvotes.
Sebastian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
She still is!
Chris T.
@Obdurodon: I just saw one of those signs while driving through a rural area near here. They make no sense: Trump is nothing but bullshit.
Heywood J.
It would be wonderful if Biden opened by looking across at Trump, face to face, and said, Call me Sleepy Joe to my face, motherfucker. Go ahead. Here I am. You got somethin’ to say? Say it, shithead. I’ll flip you like a cheese omelet. I’ll smack you until my hands look like I’ve been eatin’ Cheetos for a week. I’ll slap that wig belly-up. It’s basically what I would say to him if I ever had the misfortune to meet him, but I got nothin’ to lose.
Since of course Biden won’t go that route, I guess we’ll have to settle for him ticking off Trump’s many “accomplishments.” That should do.