I like the placeholder image better today — the Capitol Building rather than Velveeta Voldemort’s ugly mug!
We’re in for more upsetting video as House managers lay out the case that Trump incited the rioters. But like Hillary Clinton said:
If Senate Republicans fail to convict Donald Trump, it won’t be because the facts were with him or his lawyers mounted a competent defense. It will be because the jury includes his co-conspirators.
— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) February 10, 2021
Yep. Open thread.
JWR
Sceond?
ETA, nope. Just frist. :(
leeleeFL
Funny how Hillary is still correct, ain’t it? Almost like she knew who she was running against? What a tragedy that this Country missed out on a second Clinton Administration. Wonder how many more Americans could have voted in 2020? If only they weren’t DEAD!
!ETA! sceond!
dmsilev
@leeleeFL: Hillary Cassandra Clinton.
MisterForkbeard
From what I’m hearing, they’re showing video today of the insurrectionists that hasn’t been seen before.
Unless it’s got a ton of people saying “Trump needs us to do this!” or talking about how they received direction from Trump, I don’t think it’s going to change any Republican minds. They’ve settled on their new strategy, which is “this is unconstitutional but even if it isn’t the Democrats are just making appeals on emotion and aren’t showing that Trump is responsible for any of this”.
Then they’re going to watch the Defense show videos of when Democrats say things like “We’ve got to fight hard!” to peaceful crowds, and go be outraged on Fox News about the double standard.
JWR
@leeleeFL: Damn! Missed Sceond by that much.
MisterForkbeard
@JWR: Sixth! :)
Another Scott
Thanks BC. I’ve opened the YouTube copy in another tab and am listening.
Cheers,
Scott.
Chyron HR
“Nooooo you can’t just call me a Voldemort, that’s worse than attempting to kill congress and overthrow the US government!” – some republican anal wart, apparently
Jeffro
@leeleeFL: Hillary told us back in 2016 that it’s her or the Apocalypse…spot-on…
Another Scott
Raskin says the House Managers will give a warning before the most graphic violence in the video they’ll be showing later.
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
debbie
It’s about time someone brought up that fire in a theater analogy. That’s how we normal, non-lawyer people know to think about the limit of free speech.
dmsilev
I hate the “shout ‘fire’ in a crowded theater” thing, because it was coined in reference to throwing anti-war protestors in jail.
MisterForkbeard
@germy: It’s nice of them to prove that Neera Tanden is right about them being assholes though, isn’t it?
trollhattan
This is OT but relevant to Those Crazy Trump Years: Shots fired at EPA.
None of my career Agency contacts have ever seen anything like this.
JWR
@MisterForkbeard: Curses!
I really, really wish the camera angles would show the R side of the gallery, just so we’d know who’s not paying attention.
Another Scott
OMG! Not fire in a crowded theatre!! Someone do a wellness check on Popehat, stat!
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
@JWR:
None of them.
And when the video starts, they turn away or bury their faces in their “notes” (blank pages)
debbie
@dmsilev:
It still fits, though.
He’s talking about the AA cop profiled in This American Life. Glad he’s in the official record now.
Just Chuck
It’s not shouting “fire!” in a crowded theater. It’s shouting “set fire to this theater!” and handing out gas cans.
germy
Just Chuck
@trollhattan: Hopefully whoever edited those reports is named and fired as well.
HinTN
Maybe the House Managers should play the fire scene from Inglorious Basterds and see if they get it.
Martin
I’m pleased by this opening argument, that Raskin is focusing on the big lie. That’s key here. Everything flows from that lie.
germy
Imagine being a MAGAT, storming the Capitol to save your president, and then you see yourself being called a criminal, not only by Demoncrats, but by the president’s party. To be accused of being an antifa hoax, etc. Do they understand they’re just cannon fodder?
dmsilev
@germy: So, Water Bottle Rubio is saying that T**** should be criminally prosecuted? Works for me.
debbie
@Martin:
And that it started weeks before January 6.
I like that they are speaking directly to the American people, more so than in the first impeachment trial.
SiubhanDuinne
I continue to be wildly impressed by the D class if 2018, which includes both Raskin and Neguse. As the old guard (Pelosi, Hoyer) retires and dies off in the next several years, I’m comforted that we have such great legislators coming up to take the baton.
cain
@leeleeFL: Congratulations!! FULL OF WIN!
zhena gogolia
@germy:
But the replies to that tweet are all, “It’s unconstitutional! Maxine Waters did the same thing!” When was it that Maxine Waters incited an insurrection?
cain
@JWR:
Better luck next time!
germy
@dmsilev:
My interpretation of Rubio is “Arrest the dangerous thugs who were violent, and who were there by the way for reasons that had nothing to do with Mr. Trump.”
I could be wrong, though. Rubio’s a slippery weasel.
SiubhanDuinne
@JWR:
@MisterForkbeard:
Twenty-eighth!
Martin
@debbie: It started in 2016. Even when Trump won he said 3 million people voted illegally because he demanded that the popular vote be in his favor. He’s been building this house for a LONG time. And it wasn’t hard to build given how dishonest the GOP overall has been about assertions of voter fraud. Trump just ran with it.
dmsilev
@germy: Oh, I’m sure that’s what he meant. It’s not what he wrote though.
Peale
@dmsilev: Or he’s just punting from his duty, the way that the GOP does. “People don’t need stimulus money. We have church charities and bankruptcy court for that.”
eclare
@SiubhanDuinne: Agree, it is good to see.
leeleeFL
@cain: Aw, many????!
Ramiah Ariya
Since this is a open thread, I have a little story about how things are presented to the American public vs reality in countries like India:
My state of Tamil Nadu (TN) in India, can boast of one of the oldest fascist movements in India, the Dravidian movement. This movement gained power in elections in 1967 and since then has entrenched itself influencing education and media.
One of the ideological gurus of this movement was a person known as “Periyar” – who mounted virulent attacks and encouraged violence against the Brahmin caste in TN (his movement explicitly called Hitler a revolutionary hero for his policy on Jews; and compared the existing Brahmin community in TN to bloodsuckers who should be given the same treatment as Jews).
When the Dravidian movement came to power, they white washed Periyar’s actual statements and made him into some kind of benign leader, even comparing him to Gandhi.
One of these attempts at legitimizing this figure was to claim that Periyar was awarded the UNESCO prize as “South East Asia’s Socrates”. This claim made it into wikipedia; it went into books and it went into the textbooks of the state.
A couple of years back, an FB friend of mine contacted UNESCO; and confirmed that this claim was false. They had no idea who Periyar was. This friend had this claim removed from wikipedia.
For this, he received threats online; and his FB account was locked. He now has stopped writing, thanks to these.
This friend of mine is a liberal, but he identifies with the BJP, the party now much maligned in Western media.
In a state like mine, where the ruling ideology, the Dravidian movement, is ethnofascist, it is very hard to rely on Facebook or Twitter’s moderators. These moderators are picked in each country from the broader society – and if that society is controlled by a Nazi ideology, how can we really depend on them?
There is no answer to this question – I have screenshots of FB users threatening and abusing a minority in the state, but repeated complaints to FB are of no avail.
Meanwhile, it appears the Western media is determined to shoehorn their ideological splits into a country such as ours. The Dravidian ethnofascist movement I mentioned above is virulently anti-Hindu due to racial theories. Yet, no mention of this movement and other ethnofascist movements in India ever occurs in the Western media. Instead the attempt is to paint an apocalyptic confrontation between “right-wing Hindu nationalist” vs democratic forces in India.
That is not the full story. It is not even half the story.
Unlike the United States, Indian law prohibits hate speech, speech that causes “divisions based on religion, caste, race, creed”. Yet, speech that commonly violates the Indian law is held up by FB as unworthy of censoring. Misinformation flourishes in social media, both from people protesting recent issues and the government’s supporters. I have myself worked on untangling both sides.
One of the most draconian laws limiting free speech online in India (Section 66A of IT Act) was passed not by the current government, but by its predecessor, the Congress party that sits now in opposition.
Media coverage in the West, of India (and possibly most other developing countries) cannot be depended upon to provide deep context.
Martin
@germy: Imagine being in a courtroom for jury selection and telling the judge that he’s wasting everyone’s time by not using the criminal justice system.
Elizabelle
Trump’s being on trial is the only way I have ever found it palatable to listen to clips of his words, or his being called “president.”
I could go for more Trump on trial. Let’s make it a long series of trials. And conviction.
Before today, I had never listened to more than 30 seconds of Trump in his political guise. Throughout his whole administration of misrule. Just as long as it took to close the web page, or hit the remote
PS: You still cannot make me watch Trump. Just listening. Have seen enough of his orange puss for eternity.
germy
@Martin:
Trump was crying fraud during the Republican primary. He accused Cruz of stealing votes from him.
Peale
@Martin: And note how the number of voters has just climbed and climbed. First they start by round up 72.1 million to 73 million, then that number got rounded to the nearest 5 at 75 million. Which got rounded up to the nearest 10, so its 80 million. And then by January 6, it was his sacred landslide win – so they’ve probably rounded that up to 100 million. Never mentioning that Biden got a lot more votes. His number just stays the same.
dmsilev
Relatedly,
In wake of Trump calls to state officials, Georgia prosecutors open criminal investigation into efforts to subvert election results
germy
JWR
@SiubhanDuinne: Twenty-eighth!
C’mon down and take your prize!
trollhattan
@germy:
“Something, something…Antifa!”
–Li’l Marco
Elizabelle
Trump’s rhetoric just makes me sick for the Americans who believed the “stop the steal” shit.
What morons. What ugly, ugly morons.
catclub
@dmsilev: exactly my thoughts
J R in WV
I wonder if RWNJ Senators would still get to vote to acquit DJT if they were in the local jail, after being indicted for insurrection and arrested?
That would be one way to work it. Or just encourage them to stay home when voting was planned!
“I never voted to convict Trump, you can’t criticize me for that!!!!” From 20 of them…
Leto
@Elizabelle: I’m honestly hoping that the lawsuits coming out of NY, that they happen soon. Maybe stagger them out just a bit, but go ahead and serve them up. Might as well start what the rest of his life will be. Unending legal troubles for the rest of his shitty life.
catclub
@dmsilev:
Throw in Lindsey graham? I am ok with that.
BruceFromOhio
@Ramiah Ariya:
I am sorry that you and your friend must endure these challenges. And you are quite correct, deep context in media stories has become regrettably rare. Your experience again underscores the harm caused by unregulated hate speech on social media platforms.
Almost Retired
The House Manager’s presentation has just been excellent so far. But I have to admit feeling a little triggered by the clips of the former Orange Circus-Peanut-in-Chief. I haven’t heard from or seen him, or thought much about him since January 20. In fact, lately I’ve been forgetting to take my blood pressure medication. But if I must be subjected to him again, this is the best possible context!
Elizabelle
@Leto: I hope so, Leto. I hope so. Justice demands it.
Chief Oshkosh
It’s all that water.
BruceFromOhio
@Elizabelle:
Spent 8 years of the Bush administration doing that with W. Perfected it with 4 years of the dumpster fire. It was totally worth the effort, my blood pressure and scraps of sanity were both protected.
dmsilev
@Almost Retired: They’re doing a great job. If the Senate GOP had any integrity or honesty, it would be a slam-dunk case. Big ‘if’ though.
Topclimber
@SiubhanDuinne: I call massive fraud. I was 28th by a mile.
Why do you sheeple trust this aquafemme person to be fair?
Baud
Buttigieg is in quarantine.
trollhattan
@Baud:
Surprised all administration folks haven’t been vaccinated already, or at least the entire cabinet.
zhena gogolia
@Baud:
Is he sick?
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Someone in his security detail tested positive.
JWR
@zhena gogolia: He was in close proximity to an infected person. Maybe a staffer.
eta what Baud said.
debbie
I’m amusing myself while listening by imagining Trump’s head exploding all over his tacky furniture. These presentations have got to be killing him.
MisterForkbeard
@germy: … is Rubio trying to say that the attack was really bad but we shouldn’t impeach Trump for it because we have a criminal justice system that might decide that they’d win a case against Trump in court?
Or is he just completely ignoring everything to talk about how Republicans are focused on the REAL problem, those people who mysteriously and for no reason tried to overthrow the government on Jan 6th?
Leto
Just a preview for when the other side gets up to spew bullshit:
Martin
@Almost Retired: It’s critical that we not forget about Trump. This will repeat if we don’t vote in every election like he’s on the ballot. Right now the GOP is pushing HARD toward more Trump. They have learned the wrong lesson, and we need to crush them in every election until they learn the right lesson.
There’s a reason we keep talking about Hitler. It’s critical we not forget about Hitler. It’s critical we not forget about Trump.
Martin
@Leto: I think “Nebraska, you’re going to hear, is quite a judicial-thinking place” needs to be in the subhead rotation.
Almost Retired
Methinks the wrong Castro brother ran for President.
The Thin Black Duke
@Leto: “When you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.”
germy
@MisterForkbeard:
Damfino.
Major Major Major Major
Open thread?
Andrew Yang continues to have a commanding lead in NYC mayoral polls. Yes, he has the highest name recognition, but not by a factor of two… interesting race so far. Lots of candidates, most at the last debate did not distinguish themselves.
Almost Retired
@Martin: Oh, I totally agree. But I’ve enjoyed the break.
germy
@Almost Retired:
He’s young. As is Neguse.
Who knows what the future holds? Maybe one of them will be president someday.
I remember when I first saw Obama in ’04.
dmsilev
Laying out the timeline, showing that January 6th was not some aberration but instead the culmination of a long campaign to overthrow the election, is really powerful.
SiubhanDuinne
@Chief Oshkosh:
LOL
Major Major Major Major
Oh, and like the President, I’m not really paying attention to the “trial” :)
NotMax
@Leto
Oh Mister
GallagherCastor, oh MisterSheenSchoen…SiubhanDuinne
@Almost Retired:
i like them both, and I don’t think the D primary results would have been a scrap different.
zhena gogolia
zhena gogolia
@Major Major Major Major:
You should be.
different-church-lady
@MisterForkbeard:
An asteroid directly to the cranium is not going to change Republican minds at this point. They’re sociopaths. This is much more about revealing the true danger and horror to the public than about getting a conviction.
SiubhanDuinne
And here’s Swalwell!
Is it promiscuous of me to be crushing on every one of the House impeachment managers??
different-church-lady
@germy: In both instances they’re allergic to the truth.
germy
Betty Cracker
@Major Major Major Major: Hmmm. Not sure what to think about that, especially since I don’t know anything about the other candidates. Yang seems like an okay guy, but I thought it was kind of nuts for him to run for president because it’s such a huge job that would seem to require some government experience. Maybe NYC mayor is too big also. He should try Tampa first! ;-)
different-church-lady
@germy:
Right, so prison for Trump it is then!
MisterForkbeard
@zhena gogolia: Yep. For all that I think the Republicans are going be corrupt here, it’s more than worth going over the seriousness of the attack and how Trump pushed it relentlessly until it backfired… and then pushed it a little more.
catclub
@Leto:
I think having terrible legal arguments and still expecting and getting all the GOP votes is a dominance performance. Like sending spokesman out to lie.. just because they will.
MisterForkbeard
@Betty Cracker: Maybe South Bend? :)
different-church-lady
@germy: It’s really impossible to determine who all those people carrying Trump flags were supporting.
debbie
@Major Major Major Major:
DeBlasio must not be running?
leeleeFL
@BruceFromOhio: I was in the same place! Barely heard his voice for the last 4 years…. it’s still irking the crap out of me, but the context is important here, so I am steeling my resolve. These managers are amazing! I am do flippin’ proud of the…..bet Nancy Smash is qvelling! These are her children!
Major Major Major Major
@zhena gogolia: why?
leeleeFL
@Leto: TV show right there!
I have loved Beschloss forever, but this new fury is delicious!
Old School
@debbie:
He can’t. He’s term limited.
germy
@different-church-lady:
I’m not a mind reader!
Martin
I think people are underestimating how much ammunition this gives Democrats in the next election. Public opinion continued to shift against Nixon as the temperature dropped. They’re behaving as though we’re going to see this in 2022 the way we see it now, and it’s virtually guaranteed that we won’t. This is tremendously valuable no matter what the vote turns out to be.
leeleeFL
@Almost Retired: Joaquin has always been impressive.
zhena gogolia
NotMax
@debbie
Can’t. Term limits.
Major Major Major Major
@debbie: He’s term limited because he’s not named Bloomberg.
zhena gogolia
@Major Major Major Major:
Because you’re a citizen of this country.
JWR
Why are both Swalwell and Neguse talking primarily to Senators to their right, (or from the TV viewer, to the left side of the screen), and only occasionally to their left. Aren’t the Rs to the speakers left?
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
Jeez, I wish there were some way for the Senate to penalise members who fail to be attentive (or at least to present a tolerable façade of attentiveness). I mean, that’s just fucking rude.
I realise that rudeness is precisely what he intended.
Major Major Major Major
@Betty Cracker:
Yeah, I mean it’s definitely a smaller job than being president, heh. He definitely seems to be a perfectly fine human, and his median opinion… could be worse…
Like a lot of big cities, “the establishment” actually is a problem here, which I saw reflected in the other leading candidates at the first debate. Would need to hear everybody’s housing and education and transit policies, which I’m sure I will. He had a good debate though, hands-down the best answers on vaccination and police.
I have a theory that if you agree with Andrew Yang there’s a decent chance you don’t know what you’re talking about, though… but surely that doesn’t apply to me ;)
hueyplong
It’s great that Trump is out.
It’s great that he has no social media platform.
It’s great that he’s being impeached and the facts of the matter are being carefully rubbed into the GOPers’ hideous faces.
One more milestone that will promote happiness will be when there is no longer perceived to be a need to inform us that Trump is “livid” or “furious” about some revealed fact or some flunky’s insufficiently soul-destroying effort to protect him. His intense displeasure at anything smacking of reality has ceased to be an item of interest.
Almost Retired
Maybe I’m just caught up in the moment, but the organization and presentation of the House Manager’s case has been magnificent. It sort of makes me want to un-almost-retire and go back to trying cases.
Major Major Major Major
@zhena gogolia: and? I’m sure if there’s any actual news it’ll come my way.
Roger Moore
@MisterForkbeard:
I think he’s equivocating. He wants to vaguely imply that we should be doing something different without actually coming right out and advocating anything specific he could be held accountable for in the future. It seems to be his standard operating procedure.
ETA: I think this is also why he likes Biblical quotes. They let him imply something without coming right out and saying it, so he can always deny that’s what he meant if it becomes convenient.
Martin
@JWR: It’s difficult to not speak to the people who are paying attention to you and to instead focus on the people that are not.
dmsilev
@Martin: I think that’s right. There’s going to be more and more information coming out over the next several months as investigations proceed and people start going to trial and so forth. Republicans rubber-stamping an acquittal is going to look worse and worse, and the fig-leaf “our weird reading of the Constitution says that the trial can’t be legit, so that’s what our vote to acquit really means” explanation is not going to hold up well.
So far, four term-ends-in2022 R Senators have announced that they’re stepping down instead. Seems like a lot so early in the term.
NotMax
@zhena gogolia
Yup. Not often so many people are privileged to have front row center seats to history.
Especially without the intrusion of talking heads.
Martin
@dmsilev: I think this is why Rubio is laying the groundwork for ‘I voted to acquit because it was unconstitutional, but the DOJ should absolutely have gone after him’. He’s trying to thread the needle of a vote he knows he can’t come out looking good on by deflecting responsibility to someone else, as the GOP so routinely does.
JWR
@Martin: Ah. That would explain it.
Adding, damn this “data-mice” crap.
PAM Dirac
@SiubhanDuinne: Raskin first won his congressional seat in 2016. He defeated Kathleen Matthews (wife of Chris Matthews, the former Hardball host) among others in the D primary. i’m happy to say I voted for him 3 times now and hope to vote for him for a long time.
hueyplong
@Roger Moore: Rubio is like the embodiment in human form of a smaller and more contemptible version of the lead character from that 50s sci-fi movie “The Blob.” He’s whatever shapeless mass he needs to be to go through the movie theater projection window, dodge a question, or otherwise live unencumbered by accountability of any kind.
debbie
@Major Major Major Major:
Hence my confusion. Thanks, all.
zhena gogolia
I guess Swalwell has to let the senators off the hook, but I wish he wouldn’t.
Peale
@Martin: Lindsay Graham managed to do enough shenanigans that Judiciary before he lost the gavel that won’t be able to get to Gardner’s confirmation vote for a few months. Their people are still at the FBI, making sure that they round up the minions but don’t touch the funders. That’s all the GOP wants. Delay an investigation long enough into the funding and organization or the riot so that when it inevitably points at them, they can cry that its old news.
Raven
Phizer #2
dmsilev
@Martin: That’s going to be a very thin reed to lean on. It’s fundamentally a weasel-attempt, and it’d be easy to portray it that way.
Miss Bianca
@germy: What’s the point of this tweet, I wonder? Is Rubio trying to hunt with hounds and run with the hares here? “Uh, yeah, well, that Capitol thing was bad, you hear, but *I* don’t have to do anything about it! That’s what we have the DOJ for!”
hilts
@SiubhanDuinne:
Agree with you, but Katie Porter is fantastic as well and I can’t understand why the hell Pelosi snubbed her twice when selecting impeachment managers.
M31
wow, the defense has 16 hours of time to respond to the case being made by the House impeachment managers
what the fuck are they going to say?
“no, he didn’t do any of that stuff you just played tapes of him doing”
Winston
Interesting how the prosecution is going out of its way to not say how the republican senators and reps were complicent in all this. Well maybe that is yet to come. I thought both Castro and Swalwell did outstanding jobs presenting their part of the case,
divF
@NotMax:
And after Al Shean, the Marx borthers…I can easily imagine them as Trump’s legal team. “I’m defending this man’s honor, which is more than he ever did”.
As I know all too well, the problem with being an old guy with a long memory is that most people have no idea what you’re talking about.
different-church-lady
@MisterForkbeard: Rubio is bullshitting. There’s no sense to be made from it.
NotMax
Admit to chuckling a mite yesterday at one of the speakers verbally slipping up by referring to the rally “on the Ellipsis.”
Benw
@Peale: @dmsilev: it’s a two-fer! Claim you voted to acquit because the DOJ should’ve done something; then when the DOJ starts investigating, scream “you can’t investigate because we already acquitted”!
zhena gogolia
@hilts:
I can.
hilts
@PAM Dirac:
Wow, that’s reason enough for him to receive a Congressional Medal of Honor and a Presidential Medal of Freedom!
Barbara
The managers are doing a really good job. MSNBC is certainly impressed! The fact that I had not focused on was that Trump’s campaign spent $50 million between the election and January 5 to promote “stop the steal” activities.
Elizabelle
Swalwell was making a great case that Trump was inciting against the RINOs.
Said it again and again. He’s trying to hit the non-whack Republicans where they live. “They’re coming for you, too.”
The incident of the election official whose home was swarmed.
These are scary, scary people. We still have to try to neutralize them, politically. Outvote them. Try to de-Foxify, de-Limbaughify, de-Trumpify the ones that might be reachable.
Martin
@hilts: Probably some punishment of success. I don’t think I’d ever even heard of Neguse before, and this raises his profile considerably. Katie did a pretty damn good job of that on her own.
Roger Moore
@M31:
They are going to muddy the waters. The goal is not to disprove the case against him but to give Republican senators some kind of politically acceptable excuse for voting to acquit. So they’ll present a bunch of separate, mutually contradictory reasons why either Trump isn’t at fault or can’t be impeached even if he was.
Betty Cracker
@hueyplong: Yep. I hope to Christ the FL Dems can come up with two stellar candidates for 2022, one to take out DeSantis, and one to take out Rubio. If I could only choose one to go down in a flaming heap, it would be DeSantis. But both are utterly contemptible in different ways.
hilts
@zhena gogolia:
Have you seen Katie Porter question witnesses in Congressional hearings? She’s brilliant and would have been an outstanding member of either impeachment team.
Martin
@M31: Oh, there’s so much maritime poetry out there. You can easily read 16 hours of it.
And shantys are really in right now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@hilts: is there going to be any questioning in this procedure?
NotMax
@divF
After the third or fourth decade of that one becomes quite accustomed to it.
Works both ways. Some of the young’uns references might as well be written in hieroglyphics.
:)
zhena gogolia
@hilts:
I’ve seen her. I don’t think she has the right demeanor.
Val Demings is more what you want. She was great in the first impeachment.
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
No.
dmsilev
@M31: It’s going to be a real-life Chewbacca Defense.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy:
Performative dickitude? that doesn’t sound like the Josh Hawley we know
dmsilev
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Maybe. After the presentations from the House and from T****’s clown show are finished, either side can request that the Senate hear witnesses; if the Senate votes yes on that, there will be witness testimony and presumably some form of cross-examination.
Fair Economist
@Major Major Major Major:
(cites Andrew Yang leading the NYC Mayor field at 28%)
How does NYC handle a non-majority win? Runoff, victory, IRV,?
Elizabelle
@Peale: Actually, sounds like the full Senate will vote on Merrick Garland at some point in March. Would be nice to be earlier but “months” is a tad draconian. From yesterday: [And I never tire of seeing “President Joe Biden.”]
M31
@Martin: “On the one hand, one may ask ‘what shall I do with a drunken sailor? and on the other, ‘what shall I do with a tweet-mad president? — here, let me do that in song . . . ” (16 hours later) “I rest my case”
that’d be more useful than what we will actually hear, I’m sure
Fair Economist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yeah, his dickitude is from the heart, not performative.
Major Major Major Major
@Fair Economist: IRV, first year for it.
Betty Cracker
CNN says Trump’s lawyers are desperately searching for video to use in their defense since their in-person arguments yesterday were so widely panned. Hahaha! Good luck with that. Maybe they can show Reps. Green, Tlaib and Waters on loop. It’s a good thing the jury is rigged or those guys would be toast.
hueyplong
@Betty Cracker: It’s logical for a resident (you) to want the governor out as a first priority while non-Floridians would rather see the Senator go.
Especially in a 50-50 Senate.
cmorenc
@MisterForkbeard:
…which, if you check out Faux News’ website, is exactly what the RW media is doing – as well as burying the 13-minute video of the Trump mob’s capitol well off the front page, toward the back end of a lengthy article. They are also laying out as much distracting chaff as possible – their current lead article on the trial headlines with claiming one of the D presenters’ ties with an alleged Chinese spy on his staff. It’s doubtful many folks who only get their info via the RW media bubble are even seeing the 13 minute video from yesterday through all the RW media efforts to minimize and distract coverage thereof.
citizen dave
@Winston: Have not been watching, but was moved by Hilliary’s tweet about the jury containing some/many co-conspirators. I was moved to retweet that one to my two R senators and R rep. And that is so true. Yesterday I was googling trying to find a list of when the R senators acknowledged Biden’s win. There were a few hits around the end of Nov/start of Dec., but no one kept up with it after that, it seems.
And this is what will always stick with me, especially when one of my senators was planning to be 1 of the 10 objecting on Jan 6 (he changed his mind during the insurrection). They were going to the wire and IF events happened to have gone T****’s way, they would have GLADLY followed along and overturned the election. I will never forget this.
Winston
@hueyplong: If DeSantis goes down, so will Rubio.
Fair Economist
@Betty Cracker:
What’s the problem? NYC has elected Bloomberg and Guiliani as mayors without prior elected experience and that worked out..
I’ll come in again.
Martin
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: No, and that’s really where Katie shines – lots of Jamie Dimon vs (absurdly smart and accomplished) mom vibes where everyone can’t help but cheer for mom.
Look, she’s my rep, and I’m not upset she’s not up there. She squeaked out a win in 2018, and won in 2020 by 7 points. Yeah, she’s great, but she doesn’t need the exposure – she’s done a fantastic job raising her profile, her seat is relatively safe now, and I think it’s pretty clear that we have no shortage of talent in the House. I may change my mind if one of the upcoming House managers bombs, but so far this has been exceptional. I can’t imagine Katie would have been notably better than what we’ve already seen. As capable, sure. Sometimes I find Swalwell to overemphasize just a tiny bit, but that’s seriously the biggest criticism I can muster and I really had to work to muster even that.
This is a presentation by people exceptionally confident in their case.
PaulWartenberg
All I want is everyone involved in the Capitol Insurrection of 1/6 to get caught, arrested, dragged off to jail, and that includes the SOB who instigated the whole damn mess (fck you, donald trump!).
Captain C
@MisterForkbeard:
I think he’s trying to say “Please, Ivanka, don’t primary me!”
Lapassionara
@germy: I think there should be a motion to exclude Hawley, Cruz, et al, from the vote, given their participation in the events of Jan. 6.
dmsilev
@Betty Cracker: Always a good idea to completely change your strategy at the last minute.
Edit: Maybe they can play that “I am not a cat” video on loop. It’s about a minute long, so 16 hours would be about 1000 repetitions.
BruceFromOhio
@Winston:
My prayers to Gaia bring a fever to my brow.
But let’s be real, we’re talking about FL here.
Fair Economist
@Major Major Major Major:
Probably much to Yang’s advantage, given his high name recognition and (so far) avoidance of making enemies. He’s going to be in a lot of backup choice lists.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
In other news: Looks like Foghorn Kennedy, Lindsey Graham and Rob Portman all very sincerely echoed Bernie Sanders’ outrage that Neera Tanden is a big meanie
Did Kennedy voters who are old enough to get that watch the Curtain-Ackroyd era SNL?
Martin
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What pisses me off so much about that is that all of us serve on juries at one time or another, and I would never think of being so flippant with that responsibility. I hope every juror in Missouri brings a book to jury duty, and puts their feet up during trial until he is forced to resign.
PaulWartenberg
@hueyplong:
It would be pretty to think that a number of voters will flip from Red to Blue in the 2022 midterms, but Gods help us the conservative hold on Florida since 2014 has gotten tighter. The Republicans are sabotaging every election norms and are refusing to let non-violent ex-felons regain their power to vote (knowing full well that it could flip the state solid Democrats by about 300,000 votes).
A lot depends on getting voter registration turned up, stopping any severe gerrymandering for 2022, and the quality of candidates for both the Governor and Senate seats (I for one hope Gwen Graham is up for a candidate for either ticket).
Ksmiami
@PaulWartenberg: their savagery is only outpaced by their stupidity…
Betty Cracker
@Winston: It would be great if both crash and burn in 2022, but I can imagine a scenario in which DeSantis loses but Rubio is reelected. DeSantis screwed the pooch on the pandemic and may get blamed for that, and he’s more closely associated with Trump. It’ll probably be close no matter what.
Captain C
@Betty Cracker: Based on what I know about Yang, if he actually gets elected as mayor he’ll be a combination of a less-competent Bloomberg (with regard to attempting to destroy the city’s infrastructure and siding with developers on everything) and di Blasio (regarding his ability to annoy everyone so he can’t get anything done combined with his apparent lack of love for NYC). I’m really hoping he gets crushed in the primary.
Betty Cracker
@PaulWartenberg: From following Graham on Twitter, I get the feeling she’s eyeing the governorship.
Captain C
@Major Major Major Major: Bloomberg was term-limited until he persuaded the City Council to allow him an extra one, against the will of almost the entire city. This pretty much cost Christine Quinn her shot at mayor (and di Blasio, based on a good debate performance, was able to pick up most of the anyone-but-Quinn vote).
realbtl
@Raven: Way to go, I’m due for 2nd on the 23rd.
citizen dave
@Betty Cracker: Someone should slip them a tip that to show T’s business acumen and character, play his commercials for T Airline, T steaks, T water, T University, etc.
Cameron
@Betty Cracker: Agree! Dunno if you were joking, but I mentioned to my SO when I first heard he was running that he should get some experience on Gulf Coast FL. Would be an interesting breath of fresh air.
Captain C
@M31:
Some variant of the Chewbacca Defense, but sounding like they came up with it on a meth binge.
germy
Major Major Major Major
@Captain C:
Ah yes, the moral struggle of our times, preventing the upzoning of SoHo and Greenwich Village to protect Matthew Broderick, slow-walking bus and bike lanes, ending the open streets program because “muh free street parking!”, and making subway construction as expensive as possible, to the extent the mayor can. Plenty of candidates for you if that’s your cause. I don’t think Yang is one of them.
SFBayAreaGal
@Raven: Congratulations.
germy
M31
wow this impeachment case is an amazing indictment of the Republican party
what an incredible hive of cowardly pieces of shit
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Leto: One of the few silver linings in the T “presidency” has been the welcome radicalization of Michael Beschloss’s Twitter feed. He used to be this boring historian wheeled out by MSNBC and he has become awesome.
Mike in NC
Finally starting in on Mary Trump’s book. She very quickly establishes that The Donald’s parents were monsters. Not that anybody would find that surprising.
thruppence
@Betty Cracker: Lindsey? Heather?
Elizabelle
@germy: At least Hawley’s not playing online Solitaire or on a dating website.
That we know.
Roger Moore
@M31:
The existence of cold Nor’westers on the banks of Newfoundland is fake news!
catclub
@JWR:
 
it is those data-mice that keep this whole website running. Cute little rodents.
gene108
@Ramiah Ariya:
THIS ????
I get so sick of people comparing Modi to Erdogan or Putin, who subverted a democratic system to essentially become dictators.
This is not a comment on Modi or the BJP’s politics or policies.
The point is India’s democracy is not under threat by the BJP. There have been bi-elections across the country, where the BJP has lost seats.
Edit: 189th!!!!! ?????
AnotherBruce
@Leto: Somewhere, I read that the inauguration battle cost 519 Million dollars. Much of that for the national guards. Put it on his tab. He is going to be sued to death.
germy
dmsilev
@AnotherBruce: The Post tried to total up the cost of T****’s attempt to overturn the election. They got to $519 million so far, most of which was for National Guard and other security measures, both in Washington and in various state capitols.
germy
Bill Arnold
@Martin:
Trump incited a cop-killing mob, that also beat a bunch of cops causing permanent injury in some. (Plus a couple of suicides that might be related.)
The incitement was both at the day-of rally, and in the months prior with the deliberate mass spreading of disinformation about (in reality non-existent) mass voting by Democrats.
Winston
@citizen dave: Ted Lieu may now be setting this up. He is starting to attack republicans for being dicks. Who better?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mike in NC: in fairness, it sounds like Maryann had considerable physical and psychological health problems, including some pretty severe post-partum depression.
Though Fred had enough monster in him for two, that’s for sure.
NotMax
@Fair Economist
Can still remember one of the post-debate reviews during the 1969 NYC mayoral contest.
“John Lindsay stood on his record as mayor. John Marchi stood on his record as state senator. Mario Procaccino stood on a phone book.”
Two of the three pictured.
;)
Sebastian
@Martin:
IRC It began with the Iowa caucus where he accused Cruz of fraud.
germy
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy:
I wonder how many hours a day he spends watching Fox, OANN et al, or if he has interns do it and write up summaries with bold-faced names and terms that will trigger their audience
Dorothy A. Winsor
@germy: Interesting. My R neighbors all think Swalwell slept with a Chinese spy and spilled secrets to her
jackmac
In the long view, history will hardly be kind to Trump or his sycophantic Senate defenders. But judgement may come more quickly as the public absorbs and reacts to the damning videos and evidence presented in this week’s impeachment trial. Many cowardly GOP senators may stick with Trump this week, failing to factor in the damage to their own public support and potentially putting their respective reelections in peril. At least one can hope that’s the case!
Ken
@Major Major Major Major: Aw, I was hoping for Thunderdome.
Winston
@Betty Cracker: I have faith in the goodness of people, which is forever dashed in Florida. I miss living in California.
WaterGirl
@JWR: Can you send me a screen capture of what you are referring to?
trollhattan
@Mike in NC:
Have been curious whether mum Trump made them eat haggis for brekkie.
germy
Steve in the ATL
@dmsilev: got to get back to the bargaining table*, but wanted to point out that the Fulton County DA is a Democrat. You won’t likely see this type of action from the Georgia AG, who is a republican.
Props to JPL and the other Fulton County Juicers…such as me!
*ETA: where the union has asked for a cost of living wage increase and a reduction in mandatory overtime. I rejected those and countered with an offer of tire rims and anthrax!
j/k…or am I?
schrodingers_cat
I am bookmarking @Ramiah Ariya‘s comment. I will fisk it later, right now I have stuff to do.
Judging from their anti-Periyar screed my guess is that they are a Tamil Brahmin.
Fellow BJers, Google is your friend, read about Periyar yourself and come to your own conclusions
You can start with the Wikipedia article
or read his collected works and judge for yourself
In southern India Brahmins made up between 3 to 5 % of the entire population but controlled most if not all social institutions. Periyar and his self respect movement challenged Brahmin hegemony and was a huge political success. Tambrams like Drive By commenter have not forgiven this.
Tip to BJers: Caste plays the same role race plays in this country
zhena gogolia
@Mike in NC:
It’s a good book.
JWR
@catclub:
Yeah, but they’re rats, see? Dirty little rats! /Jimmy Cagney voice
James e Powell
I wish Stacey Plaskett had shown Marco Rubio’s remarks in support of the Texas Trumpsters attacking the Biden/Harris bus.
Martin
Guessing Rubio isn’t enjoying this line of evidence.
debbie
@Elizabelle:
About goddamn time.
Steve in the ATL
@Dorothy A. Winsor: the real story is probably that he ate Chinese food and spilled soy sauce
LuciaMia
Like Homer Simpson’s eyeball glasses.
Roger Moore
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I looked it up. Swalwell was apparently one of many politicians cultivated by a Chinese woman who was suspected of being a spy and is known to have slept with other American politicians. He broke off any contact with her as soon as our intelligence people told him there was a concern, and there’s no indication he either gave her any information or slept with her. But the incident was leaked when he was involved in the first Trump impeachment, and now it’s taken as a fact that she used her wiles to get secrets from him. Given how many Republicans were eager to sleep with Maria Butina, it’s standard projection to assume the Democrats have no more self-control.
JWR
Ted Lieu used the words “bullshit” and “pussy” on live national TV.
Fox News: DEMS ARE POTTY MOUTHS!
NotMax
@Steve in the ATL
USAMSG!USAMSG!USAMSG!//
Gin & Tonic
@Steve in the ATL:
Smart money is on “no.”
leeleeFL
@zhena gogolia: Care to elaborate?
germy
hilts
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
No there is not, but Porter is great at summarizing and explaining information and she’s a very persuasive speaker.
zhena gogolia
@leeleeFL:
I’m not as big a fan of her as many people here. I don’t think her style would work very well in this context.
different-church-lady
@germy:
“One of these must not have an extradition treaty…”
MCA1
@Martin: [Screaming Colin Meloy] “Dammit! I was off by a decade.”
JWR
Plaskett going to the illegal march to the Capitol. Good! (If a president announces a march, does that make it legal, much as he can unclassify information at the drop of a hat?)
Winston
Why couldn’t the Virgin Islands become a state?
Wyatt Salamanca
@NotMax:
When you have 25 minutes to spare, this is an entertaining British documentary on the 1969 NY mayoral election
youtube.com/watch?v=ab_V-51h6wE
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Agreed.
Miki
@zhena gogolia: Agreed. She’s sharp, prepared, and relentless, too much so at times, imo.
Need to add that it drives me nuts when people describe her as a “mom,” as if that’s her primary job. Yale undergrad, Harvard law, and a law professor but yeah – “mom.”
SoupCatcher
@Roger Moore:
So Republicans are accusing Swalwell of closeted heterosexuality?I guess that’s progress.I feel like the only response is laughing Arizonan (#GreenShirtGuy).
eta. Strikethrough. My apologies. I mixed up Eric Swalwell with someone else.
NotMax
@Martin
Obligatory.
:)
Geoduck
@hueyplong: That’s unfair to The Blob, as it was in no way trying to dodge responsibility, it was all attack consume devour.
And I have to say I’ve gotten really tired of people who say “this won’t change any GOP minds!!” like it’s a hot take that’s never occurred to anyone before.
Winston
Here we go to the stand down orders.
different-church-lady
@germy:
A lower middle class person could easily run up a bill like that if they disregarded paying taxes over a dozen or so years.
Winston
Clapping for Stacey Plaskell. You go girl.
MCA1
Couple thoughts at this point:
Elizabelle
(1) The Impeachment Managers are speaking over the GOP Congressweasels’ heads to Americans watching.
(2) I look forward to hearings on how the Capitol was so poorly prepared for January 6th. Who did and did not do what at the Pentagon and in leadership positions?
(3) The managers make an excellent case to their GOP colleagues: Trump was inciting the mouthbreathers within the GOP base. Do you think they are going to support you? Really? They can be turned against you, too.
To Senators: Perhaps you should think of exorcising them; perhaps it might even be the only way you maintain your own seat in 2022. Unlike House members, you get a whole state as constituents. There are plenty of non-mouthbreathers who are watching this at home. This is horrifying. The electorate as a whole operates much differently than the rabid Fox/Q base. Think about this. A vote to acquit might not be as safe as you anticipate.
Elizabelle
I wonder if we might see some GOP senators vote to convict, and make their decisions on running for re-election in 2022, or retiring, based on the aftermath.
More and more is going to come out. And Joe Biden is a reminder of sane and humane governance.
Ken
I assume you mean “too much” only for “relentless”.
Who was it who complained that Hillary Clinton was “too prepared”, I think after one of the 2016 debates?
NotMax
@Winston
A group of islands out in the ocean becoming a state? That’s crazy talk.
:)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: I lie Katie Porter just fine, and I’m sure she would have done fine as a manager, but she seems to attract the kind of culty vibe that has gotten us into trouble before. I’ve seen no indication that she herself buys into it.
Betty Cracker
@different-church-lady: True, and small business owners and self-employed folks (like realtors) have to proactively pay their taxes rather than relying on employer withholding, and those folks seem to be overrepresented in WingnutLand.
divF
@NotMax: I first heard that song on Oscar Brand’s “Brand X” album (1976).
Origuy
@Winston: Population of the US Virgin Islands is 106,000. It would be small for a congressional district, but combining it with Puerto Rico for Senators and presidential elections might work. They could still have their own governors.
germy
NotMax
@Wyatt Salamanca
It was inherently contradictory that Marchi, whose pet cause was the secession of Staten Island from NYC, was so set on running for mayor.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker:
My ex-BIL was not a wing nut– just opposite, extremely on-line, well-akshully liberal– he was (is) a realtor, deeply invested in being able to tell people he was self-employed. I think that runs deep in the kind of ex-urban male who gravitated to trump.
He always had to have a car more expensive than he could afford– never buy a top line Toyota when you can spend more on a basic Lexus!, then the most green-friendly. I’d bet fifty bucks he’s got a Tesla now.
gene108
@Winston:
Population?
It has a population of around 106,000 people.
MCA1
@Elizabelle: Here, I’ll hold this football, would you like to come kick it? ;^)
I wish this were the case, but I think all we’ll get out of the impeachment trial is some great material for ads the next couple of cycles. Whether it’s used effectively enough to impact a few Senate races, and whether the voting public in swing race locations is appalled enough by what they see this week (including Republican complicity/lack of guts) remains to be seen, I guess.
BruceFromOhio
@Elizabelle:
Portman (Q-OH) announced he is not running in ’22. I believe he would argue vehemently in favor of, perhaps even demanding being doused with gasoline and set ablaze before he would vote to convict.
Personally, I speculate he was just savvy enough to see what was coming, and was determined not to be bothered with or by it. 2 years of a duck with crutches, yay, us.
germy
Miki
@Ken: Yes – too relentless.
Ken
@gene108: I think in the 19th century, the law said a territory needed 30,000 people to become a state. I wonder if that’s still in effect? It sounds like the sort of thing they wouldn’t waste time changing since there’s been no need.
Immanentize
@NotMax: But Marchi had a lot of constituents for his position — those secessionists on Staten Island and everyone in the other Burroughs who wanted to get rid of those assholes.
Brachiator
@germy:
Immanentize
@gene108: I’ve always liked the idea of the new state being “Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands.” St. John is at least 80% federal land and funded anyhoo.
Elizabelle
@MCA1: I am always hopeful. Would like to see all the cynical (including pundits) have to eat their predictions.
Martin
@Miki: To be clear, that’s her branding. And it’s good. She’s not a politician, or a lawyer, or an academic, she’s just a mom. In a suburban, historically red district, it works VERY well.
And when she’s dressing down a CEO or the head of the CDC, that’s what she always retreats to. She knows she has all of the other tools on her side, but the ‘mom’ impression gets them to lower their guard. Look at the videos when the CEO breaks, they’re kind of laughing. She’s not an enemy. In that moment they understand why she’s fighting so hard and they respect that.
So, the mom label is one she uses to her advantage. Hillary never really did, nor Pelosi, even though everyone knows they are moms. It’s smart. We like moms. We respect moms. We want more moms in Congress. Sure, two Ivy’s, law professor, we want that too. But moms are her demographic, and man does it work well here. The first canvassing meeting I went to, there was only one other guy there. There were 30-40 people there, some young women, a few regulars I knew, and a shitload of more-or-less stay-at-home moms that had never volunteered for a campaign before – my wife’s social circle.
Immanentize
Recess for a bit. Nicole Wallace came up with the count — Trump said “fight” 20 times in his speech to the insurrectionists.
Martin
@gene108: Probably. Jefferson set a standard of 20K people minimum. I don’t think there’s a formal minimum, but I’d gather that you need to have a population of at least 50% of a congressional district (~350K).
DC has about the same population as Wyoming.
BruceFromOhio
@Martin:
If Dems have a ghost of a chance to hang on to these tiny majorities in 2022, this is one of several demographics that has to be engaged and sustained. Without them, I’m uncertain the Biden agenda can prevail.
A Ghost to Most
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
To be fair, everybody has a Tesla these days, at least in Denver.
Patricia Kayden
lee
I’m not sure the GOP is thinking their plan all the way through with their acquitting T*
If in 4 years Biden loses to Trump (shudder). There is no downside to Biden attempting a coup.
If it works, he’s President.
If it fails, he walks away.
Martin
@Ken: It was a guideline. When Jefferson claimed the land between the colonies and the Mississippi he set 20K as a minimum for those lands to organize for statehood. At most, it applied only to that territory. I think Congress can set whatever standard they want.
I would have to think a congressional district (711,000) or some major fraction thereof would be the standard. I can’t imagine Congress would be interested in diluting their own political power by granting representation to a small population (assuming we keep the 435 count, which there are lots of good arguments should have increased as the more recent states were added).
Ken
@Patricia Kayden: @lee: See, that’s why I’m hoping (but in no way expecting) that as the Senate prepares to vote, heavily-armed troops enter the chamber and take up positions with full coverage of the floor. After a few minutes of tense silence, the House managers close by asking, “Is this acceptable?” and the troops leave.
The Moar You Know
@Dorothy A. Winsor: He most assuredly did the first. I don’t know about the second. Not enough to get him charged, at any rate.
NotMax
@Immanentize
Nothing says parts of a state must be geographically nearby. Now that they’ve gotten rid of “and Providence Plantations” RI could pick up some square mileage and become the state of Rhode and Virgin Islands.
:)
piratedan
@MCA1: I’m thinking that the Congressional Impeachment Managers understand that their real audience are the 4th estate and the peeps. I suspect they understand that their Republican peers are likely a lost cause.
Humanities Prof
@Ken: I believe that the threshold was actually set at 60,000–the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 was the relevant law here, IIRC.
This point came up in Ohio’s statehood campaign. A lot of Ohioans couldn’t stand Arthur St. Clair, the Governor of the Northwest territory (long story short–he was an elitist asshole). So there was a real drive to push Ohio to the population threshold that would let it apply for statehood. The 1800 federal census put the Ohio Territory’s population at ~45,000, which was below the needed threshold. Two years later, the population hit 60,000 (the number that was roughly equal to the population of the least-populous state, which I believe was Rhode Island). Ohio’s constitutional convention convened in 1802, and it was formally admitted as a state in 1803.
Just taught that point in my Ohio History class this term, so the number is fresh in my mind.
BC in Illinois
Am I correct, that — unlike a criminal trial — that the impeachment prosecution does not have to share with the defense the materials and evidence that they will present in the trial?
Martin
@lee: They know the Dems would never even consider it. It would destroy the Dem coalition. The GOP doesn’t have a coalition. That’s why this works for them – there’s nobody in the party to alienate. That’s why the GOP is holding firm in their support for Trump.
The political lines are white christian nationalists vs everyone else. Everyone in DC knows this.
germy
@The Moar You Know:
From what I understand, the first Chinese spy they sent, they fired for gross incompetence, after she tried unsuccessfully to hook up with Sen. Graham.
/
catclub
@A Ghost to Most:
But nobody goes there any more because it is too crowded (with tesla’s?).
Martin
@BC in Illinois: Correct. It’s also why you’re seeing hearsay evidence (reporting on what the WH must have known) etc. There are lots of procedural rules and basically no evidentiary ones.
And that’s kind of by design. Impeachment isn’t about criminal statutes, it’s about political wrongdoing. Trump still has the criminal statues to worry about. And this presentation is making it harder and harder for the DOJ to not pursue chargers.
catclub
@BC in Illinois:
I would say, correct. It seems like there is no Code of Procedure for Impeachment trials, so it all depends on the rules agreed at the start. Each time.
The Moar You Know
@germy: I’m a bad person for laughing at that as hard as I did.
Immanentize
@NotMax: I like that idea! The federal appellate court for P.R. is already the first circuit. Why? Because federal judges up here wanted a warm place to visit (and “work”) in the winter. So we already are connected.
Immanentize
@BC in Illinois: That is true with really limited exceptions in every criminal trial in this country, doncha know.
Martin
@piratedan: I disagree. This entire case so far has been about praising Republicans that stood up to Trump and contrasting that to Trumps actions. Has there even been a mention of Dem governors or SOSs, etc? This is the biggest get out of jail free card that Republican senators are ever going to get, and the Dems are blatantly waving it in their face, so much so that not taking it will make things even more painful down the road.
Immanentize
@catclub: Also, the Senate can make any evidence or process decision during the trial by simple majority vote.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@The Moar You Know: I laughed too. We’ll sit in the naughty corner together
catclub
OT:
I am in favor. I think playing it is stupid.
Martin
@NotMax: Hey, then we could use Chinese territorial water rules and just claim the entire Atlantic and Caribbean.
BC in Illinois
@Immanentize:
Ah . . . so My Cousin VInnie is not an infallible guide to court procedure?
danielx
@germy:
Bad Germy! Bad!
Immanentize
@Martin: I agree and I think this is a good longer term strategy — if Republicans are given every opportunity to say they were noble but Trump was not, and they do not take that opportunity and run with it; as more evidence and information comes out (and it will) they will look increasingly more craven. This might not disrupt their voters, but it will lock in ours.
I think the House managers should overtly use the: “you know more information about January 6 is coming soon and for quite some time” argument in their closing.
Ken
@Martin: Didn’t we try that in the 19th century, and got our butts kicked by the British navy?
Mary G
I’m impressed with Stacey Plaskett, the delegate from the Virgin Islands, who is speaking now. Never heard of her before.
Martin
@catclub: They should play the Radiohead song instead. It’s much better.
Immanentize
@catclub: playing it is a rather recent phenom. I believe it really started with hockey where both us and canadian anthems were played to honor the huge number of players from the north. Then spread to other sports. Then was financed and made part of the Bush post-9/11 propaganda machine.
Roger Moore
@Betty Cracker:
There are a lot of other ways for small business owners to get themselves in tax trouble. The rules for business deductions can be tricky even for people who are doing their best to follow them, and I doubt these wingnuts were trying that hard. My impression is it’s very easy to fool yourself into thinking you’ve pulled one over on the IRS, only to discover too late that they have already seen whatever tax scheme you’ve come up with literally thousands of times.
Raven
Remember the dorks here whining that the cops “just let them in”?
germy
@Mary G:
And now she’s playing police communications.
Rioters were throwing explosives.
Martin
@Ken: Manifest Destiny was an idea ahead of its time. Let’s see how tough Portugal is now when we take the Azores.
zhena gogolia
This is so powerful.
Unfortunately I have a Zoom meeting in 10 minutes.
Cameron
@Betty Cracker: Agree. But state legislature’s gotta get changed, and that’s a lot of work.
Immanentize
@BC in Illinois: It’s not the worst! Criminal cases are not called “trial by ambush” for nothing! The only thing the constitution requires the prosecution to turn over is “exculpatory” evidence. This includes evidence the state has of the defendants possible innocence, impeachment evidence regarding state witnesses, and evidence that would lower the sentence if the defendant is convicted. Different States require more production, but many don’t even regularly comply with the constitutional minimum.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
I agree with you. I’m only listening; I can’t imagine how much the visuals are adding.
Immanentize
Ha ha ha. I just overheard my son in a zoom class say, “the author is supposedly a christian person, but so many of his views so obviously conflict with biblical ethics.”
J R in WV
@Martin:
I served on several juries not so long ago, and if I had acted like that in the jury box, the judge would have had severe words for me, and probably a contempt citation or two as well.
A shame the presiding “judge” here can’t throw “Josh” into the slammer for a couple of weeks! At least past the end of the voting on the Insurrection charges…
West of the Rockies
@germy:
OMG! That cat video in the Tweet below is hysterical! Judge has a Zoom conference with attorneys and one lawyer has a filter activated to make him appear like a cat. Hilarity ensues. Any chance that was Omnes?
Fair Economist
@gene108:
Erdogan used to lose elections too. Actually still does on a local level, or to an extent that doesn’t threaten his parliamentary majority. The question is how far Modi is willing to go; given his enthusiastic participation in secticide I think he’ll go at least as far as Erdogan has if he can.
Martin
@Roger Moore: Big businesses as well.
My dad worked for a big insurance company as a tax analyst and fund manager. After some changes to tax policies ages ago, his company started cheating the IRS against my dad’s warnings that their reading of the law was wrong.
He started looking for another job and got a really hard push from another insurance company that was working really hard to recruit him because they thought he had come up with the tax cheating plan – apparently the executives shared what they were doing. He told them to fuck off.
BTW, he documented the entire situation and turned it over to the IRS and retired.
Ken
See, now you’re getting into my other fantasy for the vote, which is based on the scene in Elizabeth where Walsingham (Geoffrey Rush) imprisons some of the Queen’s opponents before a crucial vote in Parliament.
debbie
They need to throw the fat bastard into prison RIGHT NOW.
Haroldo
@catclub:
Carla Bley’s Spangled Banner Minor works quite nicely, though.
Roger Moore
@Immanentize:
AFAIK, the earliest playing of patriotic songs at sportsball contests goes back to WWI. They sang The Star Spangled Banner during the 7th inning stretch of game 1 of the 1918 World Series, and it was so popular they kept doing it. During the Series it was moved from the stretch to during the pre-game activities, and it’s been a regular feature of big games ever since. I’m not sure when it became a standard feature at every game, but it has been for a very long time.
Josie
@Immanentize:
Somebody raised that boy right.
dmsilev
I can understand the strategy of playing up Mike Pence’s “patriotism”, but it still kind of rankles. One moment where he did the bare minimum that his job required is a really low bar to clear.
Leto
@West of the Rockies:
Geminid
@SiubhanDuinne: The Democratic House class of 2018 is indeed a very talented bunch. A few have gotten a lot of attention in national media, others, like Lauren Underwood (IL), Chrissy Houlahan (PA), and Veronica Escobar (TX) not so much, but I think these bring as much to the table as the stars. There are many more, including Sharice Davids (KS), Sean Casten (IL), and Jahana Hayes (CT).
Roger Moore
@Martin:
These days that can be a lucrative decision. People who blow the whistle on companies cheating the government are entitled to a share of the money the government recovers as a result of their whistle blowing.
M31
Officer Goodman! seriously, what a mensch, can’t wait for Biden to give him a Medal of Freedom.
Seriously, what if they’d killed Pence? right in front of his wife and kids?
Amazing how close it came
Leto
@dmsilev: it might be a play to the spineless assholes by saying, “They’re going after Pence; what makes you think they won’t do the same to you, and/or your family?” Ofc I might be reading more into it than is there.
Another Scott
UW Panel Study of MAGA Movement – early results.
Click on the menu bar for a few early graphs.
E.g. MAGA views on race.
You’ll be shocked, shocked, I know.
:-/
(via LOLGOP)
Cheers,
Scott.
Raven
I can’t believe you purists are going to let her get away with calling Pence a patriot
eta, oh sorry, it was done
Steeplejack (phone)
@thruppence:
Gwen Graham, as noted in the comment Betty Cracker was replying to.
Mary G
Before going to meet the mob, Officer Goodman tells Mitt Rommey to turn around, possibly saving his life.
Ken
@Leto: Yeah, but the spineless assholes know that they’d be painting targets on themselves by voting to convict Trump. And I’m not using that metaphorically.
Humanities Prof
@Roger Moore: The Chicago Tribune used to run politics/sports editorials by a columnist named Mike Royko. He had a bit of a gift for lampooning traditions, and in one of his columns (written, I think, after the first-ever night game played at Wrigley Field) had a line that’s always stuck in my head. It was something along the lines of not understanding why the national anthem is always played before baseball games, saying it was silly because “My dad owned a bar, and he never required his patrons to stand up and sing before getting loaded.”
germy
The security footage is chilling.
debbie
Fucking, FUCKING monsters.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Geminid:
arguably more, if you consider the ones who flipped, and then held, seats that had been Republican. Lauren Underwood’s seat used to belong to the Republican Speaker of the House (yeah, that one, but still…).
I think Chrissy Houlahan’s CD is in part in Montgomery County? NPR had a stat on that county this weekend that I can’t exactly remember, but the upshot is it’s gone from solid red to (pretty) solid blue in the last twenty years. The story was about Madeline Dean, who’s also from Montgomery County
Aziz, light!
Most Americans will not view any of these proceedings or the shocking videos being shown; they will see a brief and oversimplified recap on their nightly news. The next election is many Friedman units away and the voters have the attention spans of gnats. I’ll be surprised if this trial has any legs at all, especially after twitler is acquitted. “Exonerated” will be the media wording.
germy
The dude with his feet on Pelosi’s desk had a stun gun in his hand.
He was planning on using it on Pelosi.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@M31:
Mike Pence’s brother Greg holds Mike’s former seat from IN. One of Mike’s brothers was in hiding with Pence and Mother, not sure if that was Greg. Greg later voted with the mob, to overturn the election
Chief Oshkosh
@Immanentize: That’s my recollection. The first time I attend an MLB game after 9/11, the anthem was played and my heart just sunk. More jingoism. More false patriotism. I looked around at all the teens and young adults and thought “fodder for the coming “wars.” I had no idea then how right I would turn out to be.
Patricia Kayden
dmsilev
This is hard to listen to, even knowing how it ended.
Patricia Kayden
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: “Greg later voted with the mob, to overturn the election”
And that just about sums it up. They’re a cult.
Starboard Tack
@Humanities Prof:
I used to read Royko when I could find a newspaper that carried his column. He was a great old time newspaper guy.
Patricia Kayden
@germy: Pelosi or any other legislator he ran into that day. And yet Republicans are trying to downplay the insurrection.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: playing it at sporting events, at least baseball, started in WWII, as I understand. It was the televising of the anthem, especially with NFL games, with the players all lined up like soldiers, and often military personnel on the sidelines, even on the field, and the Blue Angels or whoever roaring overhead, that started (or got way fucking ramped up) after 9/11.
Brachiator
@Patricia Kayden:
Yep. That’s it.
M31
wonder what the text messages of people like Hawley and Cruz were at this time?
M31
so nice of all those traitors to document their crimes for us
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@M31: interesting question…. I’d like to see Nancy Mace’s and Lindsay Graham’s and a few others’ too. Wheres’ that Dragon Tattoo girl with the magic hacking powers when we need her?
Raven
The dude should have shot more than Babbit.
Frank Wilhoit
@Fair Economist: Elections are not the standard for comparison. The standard is violence. How many heads are being broken?
Mary G
Chilling:
Brachiator
@Aziz, light!:
I think people are underestimating how much ammunition this gives Democrats in the next election.
People know what happened. Hopefully, they will remember and punish the Republicans accordingly.
AnotherBruce
@dmsilev: Thanks for setting me straight. I was wondering if the Capitols were part of the equation.
Martin
@Brachiator: Having it in the congressional record helps a great deal. It also means that the news media won’t treat it as a both sides kind of thing – it’s now the official position of Congress. They will speak much more openly and bluntly about it because of this.
Raven
I want information on how the officer was killed. There has to be something.
mrmoshpotato
Look at all of you good, insane citizens watching day two of the shitshow. :)
debbie
@germy:
It was a pretty strong stun gun too, according to NPR.
Jinchi
I stopped expecting anything from Republicans after they shrugged off the murder of 20 first grade kids at Sandy Hook.
Geminid
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes, the ones who flipped seats and held them are especially valuable in my book. Three Virginia women- Jennifer Wexton in Northern Virginia, Abigail Abigail Spanberger in the Richmond suburbs, and Elaine Luria in Tidewater Virginia- flipped seats that had been Republican for decades. Spanberger’s reelection was by a razor thin margin, as was Lauren Underwood’s. Wexton and Luria won by more comfortable margins. Luria is 44 years old, I think. She’ll probably be chairing the Armed Services Commitee 20 years from now.
Ken
The Pence family Thanksgiving is going to be awkward.
Ramalama
@Humanities Prof: There was a Mike Royko iron-on decal that came with the Chicago Tribune (before he switched over to writing for the Sun Times, I think). As an insert. My mother ironed it on my father’s undershirt so that he could wear Royko around with him while at work.
J R in WV
I posted this in an older thread, thought it might be helpful to other jackals, so reposting again here:
You can order this gear after clicking on the Amazon link on Balloon Juice to pitch in a little to the blog :~)
The filter is important, and a snug fit on the mask runs a close second. In cold weather you can tell easily where the fit isn’t tight enough, you can feel cold air leaking until you wriggle it into place. I feel safer with this mask, even in a crowd.
Downside, you do look like you’re visiting from Mars…
stacib
@Ramalama: Flip it around – he was at the Sun-Times first and when Murdoch bought it, he quit and went across the street to the Trib. Royko was an amazing writer. His books are hilarious.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@stacib: he was at The Daily News, went to the Sun Times when the DN folded, then went to the Trib to spite The Alien
My parents’ subscription followed Royko
mrmoshpotato
Rewound to the insurrection footage. Good lord!
Ramalama
@stacib: Weird that I had it backwards. But my parents grudgingly switched papers around that time, and only because Mike Royko did. Weird that I had it backwards because I delivered papers at that time. Which meant I was able to grab a few more Rokyo iron-ons for my dad’s undershirts.
Uncle Cosmo
Leaving the House impeachment managers the straightforward task of connecting all the dot-dot-dots… :^p
Roger Moore
@Humanities Prof:
I remember Mike Royko; his column was syndicated to my hometown paper. My favorite quote of his was a response to the LA freeway shootings in the 1980s. He said it was only natural people in LA would be shot on the freeway. In Chicago, people get shot in bars; in LA, they get shot on the freeways. That’s where the people are.
Uncle Cosmo
Bringing to mine the tl;dr version of The Waste Land:
Roger Moore
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
WWI, not WWII. As I mention above, it was a huge hit when they played it at the 1918 World Series, and it became a staple of pageantry at big games ever after. This was before it was officially the national anthem, too; it wasn’t made the national anthem until 1931. In a real sense, they don’t play “The Star Spangled Banner” at baseball games because it’s the national anthem; “The Star Spangled Banner” is the national anthem because they started playing it at baseball games.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
from Wiki:
1984
Royko was the voice of the old school, Roosevelt-Kennedy white ethnic Democrat, yet gadfly to Daley and his machine. It was earth-shaking when he went to work for Colonel McCormick’s Tribune, New Deal hating voice of the Republicans, the bosses and the North Shore. Like a lot of his cohort, Royko got crankier about taxes, Democrats and just about everything else in his last years. But damn, he could write. I still remember the column he wrote when his wife died. “He had promised her a house on the water….”
evodevo
@different-church-lady:
Yeah…also if they run a small business employing say, 6 guys, and don’t pay in SS for them for 20 years, it adds up lol – like a roofer friend of ours…
Miss Bianca
@germy: “Sure, Jan.”
Geminid
@Roger Moore: The music used for the Star Spangled Banner was written in the 1770s for a London social club. I can imagine a bunch of drunken Engish gentleman belting out the high note we hear in “o’er the land of the FREEEE! and the home…” Personally, I think Russian-born Irving Berlin got a patriotic song right when he wrote God Bless America.
Uncle Cosmo
Your recollection is wrong. As is Imm’s. Something that’s been going on for over a century is not “a recent thing.”
Put it this way, I have firsthand knowledge that the NA has been sung or played before MLB games since the first one I attended, with my dad – 65 years ago.
IOW NOT “a recent thing.”
Roger Moore
@Geminid:
As I see it, there’s one good thing about The Star Spangled Banner: it doesn’t talk about God. All the other big patriotic songs are explicitly religious, talking about how God has (or should) favor us. I like the idea of having a national anthem that is strictly secular. It isn’t overt about it, but it just never brings God into the equation.
Uncle Cosmo
Personally, I disagree. I will take “The Star Spangled Banner” to any other patriotic song except “This Land Is Your Land.” Part of this is circumstances of birth – having grown up within a few miles of Fort McHenry and the scene of the Battle of North Point. But I appreciate TSSB for two other reasons:
(1) It commemorates the successful defense of Baltimore against a British fleet and marine contingent bent on seizing and burning it. As a later verse of Key’s poem puts it, “Thus be it ever, that free men should stand/ Between their loved homes and the war’s desolation.” IMO resistance to agression is a nobler cause than the pursuit of an offensive triumph.
(2) At least in the (first) verse that is customarily sung, TSSB makes no mention of God, unlike “God Bless America” or “America the Beautiful.” I appreciate the opportunity to celebrate my US citizenship without being prodded to pay lip service to (some of) my countrymen’s concept of an
Imaginary FriendSupreme Being that I do not share.Yes, it’s hard to sing, but I can manage it. Sue me.
NotMax
@Roger Moore
Ah, but it does just that. Explicitly, in the fourth verse.
planetjanet
@Raven:
Congrats, Raven!
O. Felix Culpa
@Major Major Major Major: Boy, what a fucking too cool for school attitude. I get it if you’re too busy with work or whatever, but this is history. Delivered straight to your home. And the Dems are doing a magnificent job of trying the case and presenting new information to boot. It behooves every citizen who has the time and access to watch.