Given a major political opportunity that would involve a little risk, Senate Democrats predictably did fuck-all, but they sure looked cowardly and craven doing it. Have to hand them that.
Statement from Rep. Jamie Herrera Beutler is read into the record and submitted as evidence.
Full #ImpeachmentTrial video here: https://t.co/t7BAmIvz8v pic.twitter.com/kXfQz8QWVK
— CSPAN (@cspan) February 13, 2021
Here’s another open thread.
PJ
Oh well.
guachi
Shows incredible weakness and little faith in their own case.
Cowardice of the first order.
JMG
Coming up next. Manchin and/or Sienema sink the covid relief bill. That’ll be next month’s fiasco.
M31
if the House managers were OK with this then it’s a good call
lol next step is Trump starting his 2024 campaign and revving up the grift machine to 11, hopefully that will take a lot of money that otherwise would go to hideous causes and just disappear it
patrick II
@guachi:
They know their case is strong. It would be stronger with witness testimony. They have once again given in to Republican intransigence.
jacobdean
Who will be the first Dem Senator to blame Raskin? “He made us look weak, it’s all his fault.”
PPCLI
I can’t possibly communicate how angry I am at what the Democrats are apparently planning to do
ETA. Putting a stake in the heart of Trump is a matter of the life of democracy in the US. Remember that the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 was a miserable failure as well. Hitler did jail time for it, as did many of his co-conspirators. And then 10 years later, the Enabling Act and the Nazis have uncontrolled power. Trump clearly has a hold over most of the Republicans. He is not going away without a fight.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PPCLI: why aren’t you angry at the Republicans who flip-flopped on witnesses?
guachi
The House managers A/V presentation was strong. But intentionally avoiding witnesses tells me they don’t believe their case could stand up when questioning actual human beings
Tim C.
Meh, I’m gonna admit I might be wrong, but letting this end in the predictable manner sooner rather than later is fine. Letting both sides call witnesses didn’t seem the slam dunk others are making it out to be. We know how this ends already. Maybe five or six Republicans vote guilty and that’s it. We know that already. Witnesses don’t make any difference. It’s just more fodder for the news cycle. Better to move on to other things. Everyone knows what Trump is and the only people who cared about witnesses are already baked in on one side or another. The less oxygen Trump gets in the cycle at this point, the better.
Also, another minority opinion. McConnel hates Trump more than he hates Democrats. But with 70% of his party in the cult, he used impeachment as a way to keep Trump on a leash from Jan 6th to Jan 20th. Once he was out of the WH, he didn’t need it anymore so easier to let Trump off. Hang the Acquittal votes on the GOP and work at your State level to get the GQP out wherever you can.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
Still shocked the Rob Portman of Preexisting Conditions Exclusions has come out against Trump.
Must be getting a little dicey in Patriots Pride Country. (Has Joey Bishop condemned Jaime Herrera-Beutler yet?)
PPCLI
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I am always angry at Republicans. I expect them to be craven and cowardly, and most of them were here as always.
Just Some Fuckhead
My heart is breaking for you guys who are in charge of enforcing Democratic enthusiasm. You will be cleaning this up for weeks.
Baud
Days like this I’m reminded that Biden is president because he didn’t listen to the Internet.
I need to resume my Normie Education Classes.
debbie
@Tim C.:
We were never going to prevail, so why let it go on? There’s no point in endangering Biden’s agenda.
JMG
I wish I could be as optimistic as some of you, but I can’t be. Every story on this tonight and tomorrow is gonna be “Democrats cave, Trump wins.” That really generates a lot of momentum for the Biden Administration. I wish I could believe the covid relief package, with over 80 percent public approval, will pass. But I no longer do. I think we’re in for a rerun of 2010 in 2022. People punish failure at the polls.
raven
@Tim C.: I’m with you, I tired of hearing about this motherfucker.
Anonymous At Work
@patrick II: Key tell: Lindsay Graham was voting for witnesses. His witness list would be Hunter Biden, Hunter Biden, Hunter Biden, Nancy Pelosi, AOC, Hunter Biden, QAnon Shaman, every Proud Boy, Hunter Biden, etc. Probably only 50 or so witnesses in all. The impeachment trial comes before anything else, and Graham wants to fuck that up.
Also, Merrick Garland doesn’t get a confirmation vote until after the trial is finished. Garland would be the one to push for criminal charges against Trump et alia at the legal advice of Bruce Castor (I mean, really???).
Quinerly
@Tim C.: I agree with you. Was typing something out on tiny keyboard but got distracted and lost it. Glad I refreshed comments. Well said!
Lee Hartmann
This makes absolutely no sense. Get live testimony. Put it on TV. Sure the R’s aren’t going to change their minds but this is for the country to watch.
Also too, they had a major victory by getting R senators to vote in favor.
Mother of god, what a pathetic excuse for a senatorial party.
Quinerly
@Anonymous At Work: ditto.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud:
God, this really will be a doom thread.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Quinerly: Hey, I got a three day ban on Nextdoor inside 24 hours. :)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PPCLI:
How would boldness and firmness have changed the one R vote we needed to get witnesses? or do you have some evidence that Manchin or Synema (or whoever) cancelled out Romney’s or Collins’ (or whoever’s) vote to hear witnesses?
Quinerly
@debbie: ditto. Agree 100%
Just Some Fuckhead
@Lee Hartmann: There wouldn’t have been live testimony. That’s not how this works. Witnesses would have been deposed on Zoom and their written testimony would have been entered into the record just like Herrera Beutler’s affidavit was.
RaflW
FWIW this is a Democrat who did not shrink from a fight. She took on one of the entrenched, deeply funded winger Repub state senators in a Minneapolis suburb this fall (she lost excruciatingly narrowly). She’s also an attorney.
I’m not sure I agree with her, but it’s a credible reason to pass on opening the door to a parade of Trump sycophants offering ‘testimony’ that Fox would run on loop for months or years. YMMV.
Quinerly
@Just Some Fuckhead: I’m pretty proud of you. How does Ms Fuckhead feel about it?
Martin
So, I think we need to appreciate that the folks in the room have a better sense of what they can gain and lose here. Consider how the GOP handle these things – they would do everything they could to muddy the waters including calling Madonna as a witness because that would become the story. Just as Trump does, they would take everyone’s attention off of what happened on 1/6, onto some other narrative they want to advance, so they got the most important bits on the record and denied them the effort to hijack things.
Dems control things, they’ll fight another day, on their terms. It’s disappointing, but it’s because the GOP act in bad faith, not because the Dems are weak.
Quinerly
@RaflW: so true.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Quinerly: She doesn’t give a shit about ones and zeros.
JWR
Wait, is there any chance that McConnell went to Schumer and said “okay, if you’ll drop your call for witnesses, I’ll get you your 17 votes”? Maybe?
debbie
@Lee Hartmann:
What have they not gotten out to the American people?
CaseyL
@RaflW:
Exactly. As I said in the previous thread, enacting Biden’s agenda will do more to generate voter enthusiasm than adding witnesses to a trial where the verdict is a foregone conclusion.
Look: The House Managers have presented more than enough evidence to convince any honest jury. This is not an honest jury.
To put it another way: What evidence do you think would convince GQP Senators to vote to convict? Be specific.
Honestly, I am sick to death of us turning on our own in the blink of an eye.
Just Some Fuckhead
You better watch out for the men in white coats with butterfly nets.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Doom threads are still better than let’s shit on ourselves threads.
House managers put on a great case. Every Dem and a few Republicans will vote to convict. All indications are the non crazification public is with us. But WITNESSES! will be like EMAILS! Something for haters to seize on.
There’s a good chance I’ll no longer be online by the end of the year. My tolerance level is low post Trump.
Brachiator
@guachi:
The Democrats proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The Republicans don’t care.
PJ
@JWR: Ha ha ha! No. There is no chance that McConnell delivered 17 votes to convict – he won’t even vote to convict himself.
Hildebrand
@Tim C.: Yep. Less than 24 hours ago everyone had pretty well resigned themselves to an acquittal, because they knew the Republicans were complicit. Do you really think witnesses were going to change that reality? Really?
Yes, there is additional evidence. It wasn’t going to change opinions outside of the five who said this was even constitutional.
Let the criminal courts do their job – it will be so much more effective than continuing what is happening in the Senate.
I refuse to wring my hands over this – because it was never going to be the silver bullet some thought it could be.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Baud: I’ll miss you nosediving on the fainting couch every time someone expresses an opinion you don’t agree with.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
I agree that enacting Biden’s agenda is the ultimate political answer to Trumpism — but why vote to call witnesses and then immediately not call witnesses? It’s a stupid, unforced error. And, yes, there might have been a “smart” reason for things to end up this way, but if there was a smart reason, then a smart group of Democrats would have been smart and not raised false hope that will make them look weak.
Baud
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I don’t agree with that. You won’t miss me at all.
bbleh
Only reasons I can think of are (1) Dems want to get on with business more than they want to embarrass Republicans, (2) her testimony wouldn’t have changed a single vote (and it would have been attacked as hearsay), and (3) there will be other opportunities for all the dirty laundry to be aired, eg House hearings, a “Reconciliation Commission,” and any number of other possible formulations, all of which can proceed at leisure, including the resolution of what likely will be interminable legal challenges over standing, privilege, etc.
IOW, bank their winnings and leave the rest of the fight for another day.
Not saying I agree, but that’s the best I can come up with.
CarolDuhart2
Remember there can always be hearings after a certain point. Also the Republicans were also going to acquit no matter what was done or said, assuming that witnesses were even going to show up after the violence of the insurrection and possible death threats.
The best way is 1) Politically. The trial has nailed Republicans to the anchor of Trump. Try moving forward with an agenda that would attract independents and wavering Democrats. Get people money, and vaccines, and there will be some breathing room for a lot of other stuff.
2) Legally. None of this gets Trump off the hook. And as the various members of the mob get indicted and go to court, there is going to be a constant reminder of how toxic Trump is.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
If only Bernie Dumbledore were alive to cast the “Look out the window, Mitch” spell…
Just Some Fuckhead
@Baud: It’s like you can see right through me.
CaseyL
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: What end goal did you have in mind? What would witnesses have added that was not already in the record?
And: Would any of it have changed a single GQP Senator’s vote?
Delk
Apparently the sky is falling. Go outside at your own risk.
Quinerly
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m sorry I stopped by this thread. It is totally ridiculous for the Senate to stop everything for what could turn into weeks for witnesses that won’t change the vote. We all knew the outcome. If somehow Trump had admitted everything flat out, we still wouldn’t have gotten 17 Republican votes. It is what it is.
We just need to move forward with a successful Biden agenda and destroying the Republican Party.
Cameron
I dunno. I’m usually one of the first to hop aboard the purity train and scream “Betrayal!” Something’s off here, though – the Democrats had pretty obviously thoroughly gamed the impeachment out (certainly far better than the Republicans). Maybe this was a contingency that hadn’t been considered; I just find that hard to believe. It’s possible the Dem Senators got together and said, “Hey, screw it – this is so over,” and packed it in. It just seems off to me, and at odds with what we’ve seen.
Elizabelle
Oh shut up, you fuckers. I speak to the jackals denigrating the Democrats, who did not make the reality they face.
Fuck you. You jackasses can be as manipulated as any of Sean Hannity’s legions.
Martin is kinder a few comments above, but I doubt very much the Democratic managers made the decisions they did because they are surrender monkeys.
You want to call Jamie Raskin a coward? Someone who can’t do his duty? Want to say that to any of the managers, who put on the best case they could, before a chamber full of Republicans who would be stepping up their game to be called kangaroos?
They didn’t elect those cowardly corrupt Republicans. Their lives were under threat on January 6th, — Republicans too — and they can’t get the majority their colleagues across the aisle to care about that.
Direct your derision there.
Quinerly
@CarolDuhart2: ?
Just Some Fuckhead
Pat Leahy seems to be deteriorating rapidly. Maybe Democrats were worried he wouldn’t make it out of the trial alive if it went longer.
Almost Retired
Well how about that! Van der Slug just popped up with an angry objection as though this were…..oh, I don’t know…..a personal injury trial? I’m flashing back to being a seven year old watching the Wizard of Oz and having to leave the room every time the Wicked Witch was on screen. Van der Sluice makes me want to turn my head and cover my ears. I hope the House Managers have a bucket of water nearby.
Baud
And FWIW, any witnesses would have required at least one Republican to agree. A tie is a loss. Harris doesn’t get to vote.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Baud: Why do I loathe you, Baud? I can’t even remember why.
Served
The Senate is going on vacation next week, so the case that capitulating here helps them get to their agenda is not great!
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@CaseyL:
Watching McCarthy squirm and be contradicted when he tries to lie, and having that phone conversation beaten into the public mind would be a starter.
Also, for those of you arguing that Republicans would call a zillion witnesses, the Senate votes on who they’re going to call, so the R’s would have been hard-pressed to make it into a goat rodeo, as much as they would want to do so.
PJ
Pelosi is strong proof that we should not have age limits on holding office, but every time I hear Leahy speak, or try to speak, I am strongly in favor of age limits. He just seems bewildered at all times.
CaseyL
@Served:
What witnesses would have changed a single GQP vote?
I’m genuinely interested to hear an answer to that question.
Baud
@Just Some Fuckhead:
There’s something about me. An ineffable je ne sais quoi.
wvng
@debbie: Yes. Republicans were going to use this to screw with Biden’s agenda even more than they will already try to do. Given that the end result is baked in, and it is baked in, then there was no purpose to continuing.
debbie
@Baud:
Who will rally us on to victory in 2022? ?
Brachiator
@Martin:
The country loses because of the Republican refusal to take Trump down. There will inevitably be another attempt at autocracy. That’s my doom and gloom prediction.
However, the Democrats and all who support them will be ready for the fight ahead.
And that is hopeful.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
I don’t know. How ’bout you call Mitt and ask him, then let us know what he says.
Omnes Omnibus
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: False hope of what? A conviction? What Republicans were going to change their minds? Hope of a further spectacle for the obsessively online? Meh.
Served
@CaseyL: Then I guess we shouldn’t have even impeached at all! This is a weak tea argument. You have witnesses to get it all out in the open, and present a thorough case.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@Baud:
Well, 4 R’s and Graham (Q Party) voted to have witnesses, so what’s your point? Collins, Romney, Sasse and Murkowski wanted witnesses a couple of hours ago.
Unless it’s just your need to reflexively craft an excuse for every unforced Democratic error. I mean, I get that, I’ve seen plenty of it in the comments around here.
CaseyL
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
I would love to see McCarthy squirm as much as anyone, but I just don’t understand what that would have accomplished other than the pleasure of the thing itself.
Mary G
@Tim C.: I am also not as hysterical as some people are. No less a person than the defendant himself has claimed, accurately, that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and be acquitted. Same here no matter how many witnesses and what they say. We’re six weeks into the term and this will all be forgotten in two. Voters will like checks from a Covid bill way more than a lot more of this. I refuse to lose faith in a party that took back the WH, Senate, and House.
Baud
@debbie: mistermix, natch.
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
So you believe they wanted to push forward but the Dems didn’t? Interesting perspective.
zhena gogolia
I’ll listen to this guy.
Betty
I am counting on a 911 style commission to delve into the truth and be able to make criminal referrals. Nancy is working on it. Filibuster needs to go.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Baud: I thought it might be some forgotten tiff but you’re probably right.
wvng
@Just Some Fuckhead: frankly, I think there is a legitimate concern that they need to get Biden’s major stuff done as quickly as they possibly can, because Leahy does seem to be weakening. We all remember what happened when Byrd and Kennedy died.
Just Some Fuckhead
That is literally Baud’s entire job description.
JPL
trump will rise again from the ashes. The democrats had a small chance to bury him, and chose not to. He’ll come back stronger.
Brachiator
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
Having witnesses might have been good, especially for people who need to see pageantry and visuals, but the Democrats more than made their case.
david
@Delk: It’s 32 degrees, with zero degree lows and 18″ of snow coming in the next 48 hours. In the deep South. Ain’t no one going outside.
Quinerly
@wvng: you said it out loud. I have been thinking it since he went to the hospital a couple of weeks ago.
NotMax
@Quinerly
Yeah, fail to perceive over what hackles have been raised. It’s a double nothingburger with a side of nothing sauce.
Nit-twitters all but calling for Schumer’s scalp are simply nutzoid.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@Elizabelle:
I specifically said that Senate Democrats caved. Not a word was said about Raskin, who is doing a bang-up job, and also moved to call witnesses. Sorry, but this was an unforced error.
Also, a general comment, this is an inside baseball political blog. Big picture, this isn’t a big deal, but I have no issue calling Senate Dems out on this one.
MazeDancer
My anger knows no bounds.
Chuck Schumer destroyed the House Manager’s reputation. Deflated the Biden-Harris momentum.
Fight, you idiot.
Make Merrick Garland Acting AG and then expose the hang up on COVId relief as all McConnell.
Keep the base fired up. Not kicked in the teeth.
So furious.
Elizabelle
@JPL: I like you a lot, but you are going straight into the pie filter. Nobody needs to hear that shit.
If you were snarking, I apologize for not seeing the humor.
Baud
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Not true. I’m also responsible for rigging primaries.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@JPL:
Right. It was “the democrats” who re-elected Susan Collins, Tom Tillis, Joni Ernst, Steve Daines….
Cameron
@JPL: Obi-Wan A-Lago?
patrick II
Trump followers believe the big lie, and feel justified in their anger because they have been told by Trump that the election was stolen. It is the motivating factor — or at least excuse — for what happened on Jan 6.
Would it have done any good to have addressed the big lie itself during the impeachment process? To have a video explaining the voting process, the tens of thousands of Americans, Democrat and Republican, who take part, to review and debunk the rancid myths spread by the Republicans, such as thousands of dead people voting in Georgia, and a review of court cases that actually determined those mythis to be lies?
That lie seems to me to be a boil that needs to be lanced, particularly since at least some Republicans (Cruz, Hawley and others) will continue to spread the lie and delegitimize the Biden presidency among Republicans and the feeble minded.
I think we missed an opportunity to take that on head first as part of Trump’s attack on Democracy.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@Brachiator:
My thought is that this trial is one time that Fox viewers are going to be exposed to a little truth and it would be helpful if they saw at least one Republican testifying that Trump knew about the danger and did nothing. Reading it into the record isn’t the same as her saying it.
JWR
@Just Some Fuckhead:
They’re coming to take me away, hoo hoo hee hee haw haw…
;)
bbleh
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: McCarthy would have to have been subpoenaed, and he would have fought the subpoena all the way to the SC. His testimony would have been fresh and relevant, not to mention a joy to watch, but the way the courts move, it might not have been until June, at which point it would have lost a lot of its relevance to the public.
JPL
@MazeDancer: That’s how I feel.
Served
If they weren’t going to call witnesses, they shouldn’t have advanced the motion without a plan to get something out of it. They walked right into a big L and it’s going to suck media attention away from the entire case and “Dems cave” is going to be the big takeaway. They did it to themselves and witnesses could have just been another hypothetical.
Brachiator
@JPL:
The Democrats did all that they could do. They dug the grave. The Republicans refused to push Trump in and to throw dirt on his rotting political corpse.
If Trump makes a comeback, it is all on the Republicans.
ramzes
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
It’s totally an own goal. The conversation after the vote today should and would have been – Democrats put on a strong case but Republicans are pathetic weaklings too scared of Trump. But now everyone will be focusing on pathetic weaklings Democrats. Why did they do this? It’s incomprehensible. If you’re not going to follow through, don’t bring the motion to call a witness in the first place.
Just Some Fuckhead
I just don’t think witnesses are the slam dunk everyone thinks they are and they weren’t even going to happen until Herrera Beutler’s late-breaking story and that testimony was read and put into the record. IOW, I’m taking a third way approach here to the one side of “democrats failed us” and the other side of “democrats can never fail, they can only be failed by Republicans.”
JPL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Small chance.. Witnesses can be compelling enough to change some minds. I admit that it was doubtful.
opiejeanne
@Just Some Fuckhead: YOU LEAVE OUR BAUDIE ALONE!
Baud
I’m impressed with people’s dedication to the belief that it’s possible to make the media and Republicans view us favorably.
RaflW
@PJ: Given that Elaine Chao resigned over the Jan 6th insurrection and Trump’s connection to it, I agree that McConnell voting no does convict himself — of cowardice and knowingly abetting sedition.
bbleh
@JPL: Naw. He’s about to be taken down by half a dozen criminal lawsuits and half a billion dollars in debt coming due. Also, he’s old. At best he’s got a Fox gig, and being considerably dimmer than, say, Rush, it won’t have the punch or the staying power.
CaseyL
FFS, people. Eyes on the prize. The prize is the legislative agenda.
Remember, if the Senate acquits – which it will – T* is not barred from running again. If he runs again, he’ll either go 3rd Party (which will split the GQP vote and render it electorally null) or hamstring any of GQP candidate who tried to run (Cotton, Cruz, Haley). Not to mention diverting $$ that would go to an actual campaign into his own pockets.
Honestly, it’s win/win.
If the Senate convicts: great!
If the Senate acquits: the GQP signs its own death warrant. Great!
Just Some Fuckhead
@opiejeanne: I’m trying to talk him into staying.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MazeDancer:
what the fuck does this even mean?
I actually wonder why this, or another more subtle Acting appt, hasn’t happened, but I don’t think Schumer has much to do with that decision.
Seems like Ron Johnson and Marco Rubio aren’t overly concerned with the Dems’ base. Go figure.
patrick II
West of the Rockies
This is about two things: swaying voters in future elections and posterity. Repubs were never going to vote for impeachment. Any mythical -on-the-fence viewers would probably somehow remain undecided even after witness testimony. The rest of the world has already decided. The case managers did their job effectively.
Trump supporters are broken, damaged people who value power and prestige and money over everything else. Progress can go with them, through them, or over them. I think it will go over them. Republicans are dinosaurs a day after the asteroid struck. It won’t be instant vanquishment, but they are ruined.
JPL
@Brachiator: The republicans would have been better without trump, but they just haven’t realized it yet.
Mary G
@Elizabelle:❤❤❤
RaflW
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: And Fox would have clipped that one R’s testimony with surgical precision to not say what we would all know it said. And then run dozens of hours of circus testimony by whoever the heck the T defense team would have called.
Net to Fox viewers: Bias firmly confirmed.
Zzyzx
@PPCLI: in 10 years, Trump will be 84. I’m only so worried about him engineering a coup at that age.
This wasn’t about getting rid of Trump. It was about making a few senators squirm for a few days.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Also, too, the “base” isn’t who people think it is.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@JPL: my main complaint with your post was that “the democrats” did this. 50 = 50.
opiejeanne
@Baud: You are our lovely Baud. It must be jealousy.
debbie
@bbleh:
Plenty of his followers will be serving prison terms, also.
xephyr
The move was bound to elicit the usual frustrated responses, and I understand that – but dragging this out, no matter how compelling witnesses might have been, will change no Republican minds. As for the court of public opinion, I think that’s pretty well set – as is the historical record.
CaseyL
Some folks on Twitter who were melting down have calmed down enough to take a more rational view.
First reactions are scarcely ever accurate ones.
Shalimar
@PPCLI: Hitler was 34 in 1923. Trump is 74. The future of our democracy does not look good at the moment, but Trump most likely will not be the evil asshole who is still around in 10 years to destroy us.
patrick II
@Anonymous At Work:
In a court trial the judge would rule on the relevance and admissibility of witness testimony. I guess that can’t happen here?
Quinerly
Soooo… All of you attacking the Dems…You are saying stop everything else. No Covid relief, no Merrick Garland… Standstill on everything else and impeachment 24/7 with Trump in the spotlight that he craves. I guess you are saying two weeks of witnesses would have won over Ernst, Blackburn, and some senator guy from ND who we don’t even know? I really want to see the list of Republican Senators who you think witnesses would have persuaded. Is there some surprise evidence… a Perry Mason moment… that would have brought them over? Something more than Trump would have been fine with Pence being lynched?
Just Some Fuckhead
Also, I think House managers could have initially done better on the post-putsch side. I’m shocked that Herrera Beutler’s story was public knowledge since January 12th and Democrats just found out about it last night along with rest of us.
russell
@Tim C.: pretty much my POV, FWIW.
the Senate is going to acquit. today, tomorrow, a month from now. no witnesses, 100 witnesses, will make no difference.
let’s get this done and get on with (D) governance.
Martin
@JPL: I don’t think so. They were never getting 67, no matter what witnesses got called. Unfortunately.
What they can do now is use this information on the record to advance other hearings and help the case down in Georgia.
I mean, the bigger goal here is larger than preventing Trump from running for office, is breaking the back of this fascist movement, which is larger than (but was enabled and advanced) by Trump. That’s about using the next 2 years to make the fascists unelectable in more moderate districts and strengthen their majorities in 2022, the continuing that effort into 2024. Ideally by then, Trump will be unelectable.
Baud
@patrick II:
It happens by Senate vote. Need 51 without Kamala.
Mary G
@Baud: Please stay. Just pie all the surrender monkeys and skip MM’s posts.
Almost Retired
Maybe I’m missing something here, but getting that powerful affidavit into evidence without objections – a document which is damning on so many levels – in exchange for preventing a parade of spurious witnesses from the defense side seems like a pretty savvy deal under the circumstances (not to mention the ability to return to the Biden agenda). But, again, I may be missing something.
NotMax
@patrick II
Won’t have the time, what with pimping the next 487 Benghazi hearings.
//
RaflW
@patrick II: Sarah has a firm grasp on future history, I see.
Yes, the mid-terms are going to be a battle. But the GOP ‘brand’ is not going to get better between now and then. Fight the political races that matter, get Stacy Abrams and other powerful folks doing similar work to spread the GA-type mobilization to every corner of the country.
Geminid
@Just Some Fuckhead: This Democrat has no problem with what the House managers and Democratic Senate Caucus just did. On this matter, I think you and the front pager are full of shit. And as far as “enforcing enthusiasm” goes, the Democrats I know are not as high maintenance as you seem to be.
Hildebrand
@MazeDancer: Stop it. Only the perpetually aggrieved will be affected by this. The rest of us knew the witness bit was never going to move votes or change minds. This isn’t about fighting, caving, or anything else. It’s about knowing the best path forward.
So, let’s get Garland confirmed, move forward with Biden’s agenda, and let the criminal trials bloom.
Leto
@Shalimar: from your mouth to the KFC bucket.
Martin
@Just Some Fuckhead: Yeah, my daughter asked why they put him in charge, and I said it was a function of his title, not a choice, and that he’s why Bernie Sanders is the junior Senator from Vermont.
O. Felix Culpa
Ah, the 101st Keyboard Commandos are at it again. There can’t possibly be any other reason for this decision than Dems R Doing it Rong™. Gotta love everyone who knows better but has never managed legislation or a floor vote before. Carry on with the requisite shrieking.
Elizabelle
This makes me have more respect for the defense attorneys who take death penalty appeal cases. That they fight on, in the face of often very little chance to prevail.
Voting can make a big, big difference. Virginia is outlawing the death penalty.
I would guess we will lose the federal death penalty in our lifetime, if we are lucky enough to live a few more decades.
Trump and Barr’s rush to execute the five prisoners in the post-election period — again, unprecedented — knowing that Biden is against the federal death penalty and would show mercy.
I had the most sympathy for the first man executed. He was 18 at the time of the murder, was not the triggerman, he was African American. He seemed to have truly repented and deserved mercy.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Geminid: I think my position is a little more nuanced than the one you think you are replying to. Keep reading. And also, go fuck yourself.
Omnes Omnibus
What could be accomplished has been accomplished.
Ivan X
@JMG: Holy Christ listen to you
Shalimar
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: That is the feeling that I stated yesterday too. This is a rare chance to inject reality into their cult by having Republicans testify to what they heard and saw Trump do that day. I understand the desperate need for legislation right now, but still feel it’s a big mistake long-term to pass on making McCarthy, Pence, Tuberville, Meadows and others testify.
Leto
@RaflW: part of the issue with 2022 is the upcoming Census re-districting in which R’s can potentially gerrymander themselves 6 seats in the House without us being able to do a thing to stop it. Not trying to despair here, but being clear eyed about what’s potentially coming down the pike.
PJ
@JPL: Republicans knew what they were doing when they nominated Trump. He was a known quantity – there were no surprises (and if there were, they could have easily stopped him in Congress, but they never did.) He got them their tax cuts, and he got them a lot of deregulation and sale of public assets, and he got them three Supreme Court justices and a bunch of federal judges. That’s a big win for them.
That they are going to be losers nationally (if their voter suppression efforts fail) for a very long time, if not forever, has been baked in since the 90’s. This was a course they set themselves on when Reagan opened his 1980 campaign with a speech in Philadelphia, MS. There was a long period where they could have tried to ditch the racism and bigotry, but they deliberately put all their chips on it in their opposition to Obama, and they have just escalated it every since.
JPL
@Martin: I hope that the democrats are able to pass a strong voting rights act, in order to prevent more gerrymandering.
I am not Jon Snow
I agree with the others who are saying it was better to end this sooner rather than later, given that nothing, absolutely nothing, was going to change enough minds in the GOP to get the 17 votes you’d need to convict. You could have 100 witnesses saying Trump personally ordered a hit on Republican senators and was sitting in a secret underground bunker laughing hysterically as he watched his minions overrun the Capitol. It wouldn’t change one mind.
All it would do is drag this thing out, delay confirmation of Biden nominees, and hinder getting COVID-19 relief to the people who really need it. And that, I assume, is why the Dems decided to fold. There would have been inevitable fights over which witnesses to call, possible court challenges that would drag out if people refused to cooperate, and lots and lots of procedural tricks to grind the Senate to a complete halt.
Case in point: a good friend of mine, a died in the wool Dem who isn’t following this trial at all because she says it’s a hopeless lost cause, wants to know why it’s taking so long to get people vaccinated, or why those relief checks Biden promised haven’t gone out yet. And she’s on Team Biden. Imagine what your average, minimally informed independent voter is making of all this. I’d also imagine that Manchin and Sinema may have had a hand in tanking any effort to call witnesses. The last thing they want is to have to explain to angry voters back home why the promised COVID relief is taking so long to reach them. You could argue that’s very bad for the future of democracy in this country and you’d probably be correct, but as a friend is fond of saying, the future doesn’t vote.
geg6
Yeah, no. As much as I would love to see a cowardly cretin like McCarthy squirming under questioning, I don’t see the point of dragging this out due to the the reality that this was always going to come to its foregone conclusion. We just have to crush these people, continuously, for many election cycles. That’s the fight. Deliver on Biden’s plans and that suddenly becomes the foregone conclusion.
JohnC
@Almost Retired: I say amen to that, and I’m an atheist. I think you nailed it.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Martin: We need term limits and a mandatory retirement age. I think 6 congressional terms and 2 senate terms is a good benchmark, along with social security retirement age.
JPL
@raven: How are you feeling?
Raoul Paste
@Baud: I feel like I’m at the Algonquin roundtable
And I’m not slamming you . Your wit makes me smile
( The voice recognition initially typed that as “ your weight makes me smile “—- dodged a bullet there )
Just Some Fuckhead
@Shalimar: Then why wasn’t all that agreed to initially? Why didn’t the House subpoena any of those people?
Kent
McCarthy is a slick experienced politician. He wouldn’t have squirmed. Most likely he would have just said “yes, that is an accurate representation of the phone call” and then refuse conjecture as to what was on Trump’s mind. “Yes, Trump said that…so what?”
pat
@debbie:
That’s my take too. Witnesses are not going to change anyone’s mind, just take away more time from Biden’s agenda.
They did get the statement in the record about the phone call.
Quinerly
@Shalimar: have Senate hearings. Call them. Have a 1/6 Commission and call them. Don’t drag this out weeks when we know how it will end and a good portion of the country looks at it as time waster when it was only a few days.
guachi
Trump was never going to be convicted. Nothing in the trial was about convicting Trump. So the argument that witnesses shouldn’t be called because it wouldn’t change any votes is a foolish and stupid argument. No one making that argument is arguing in good faith.
The trial was for history and the American people. That’s why witnesses would be useful
Mary G
Here’s some good news, I hope, since the WSJ is so rude with the paywall.
These two defense clowns wouldn’t help there.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Did you see what happened with House subpoenas in the last impeachment?
Leto
@Just Some Fuckhead: 1) run better candidates to unseat people you don’t like. If you think someone’s too old to hold that seat, primary them and run on that specific issue. “You’re too fucking old to hold that seat.” It’s a good message, the bumper sticker length everyone wants and 2) good luck ever getting the Constitutional amendment passed needed for that.
Mary G
@Just Some Fuckhead: No.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Right. And how would Senate subpoenas have fared better?
JohnC
Isn’t it true that, under Senate impeachment trial rules, EVERY SINGLE PROPOSED WITNESS would have to be approved by majority vote, with ties = failure (no Vice President tie-breaking here)? And if that is true, then isn’t all the “why didn’t they call XXX and make them squirm!” hollering pointless? The earlier “vote to call witnesses” was not a vote to “call witnesses” it was a vote to debate a possible witness procedure. I think everybody in this thread (and all over political social media!) needs to calm down. And as CaseyL noted earlier in this thread, that seems to be happening.
NotMax
@Just Some Fuckhead
So Pelosi would have been termed out – in 1999.
Omnes Omnibus
@guachi: Witnesses would have been “useful,” so not having them is “cowardice of the first order?” That seems consistent.
Feathers
I admit I don’t know the House Managers thinking, which I do trust. My dismay is over the way all the court cases went in the election challenges. There was all sorts of lies and inflammatory bullshit in the court of public opinion. Anytime an election challenger had to make a statement under oath, they sang a completely different tune. To me, just getting these gibbons under oath so that everyone could see the pattern would have been worth the trouble. But as Adam has said, they may not want to test what happens with uncooperative witnesses or their ability to keep things on track.
Hildebrand
@Baud: ‘You can’t go, all the plants will die!’
O. Felix Culpa
@Baud: I hear ya. I’m heading back out to run three more ward elections today (21 total this week), ya know, actually organizing. Not sexy and often annoying, but this scutwork has a bigger chance of making a difference in the real world than…some other activities one could mention.
Kent
I think they know it. They just can’t figure out how to get from here to there without setting their own careers on fire.
Xentik
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: This is more than a little naive. Fox isn’t going to air anything that would be damaging at the level you’re imagining. Furthermore you’re presuming that the republicans who voted for witnesses are acting in good faith.
Note, there is *no* tie-breaker in this situation:
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46185
Bolding mine. The Vice President is not presiding over this, Sen. Leahy is, so Harris cannot vote, and Leahy does not gain an extra vote as the Presiding Officer. This means that if the Republicans refuse to break ranks, they can deny any witnesses the Democrats ask for. More than likely, what would have happened would be that the Republicans would’ve granted the Democrats the least useful witnesses on their list, and then put up Hunter Biden and Pelosi, and then screamed at the media that the Democrats were turning the trial into a partisan circus by not allowing the Republicans their witnesses as well. The media, of course, would’ve been all over this like stink on a skunk, asking why the Democrats won’t let the Rs call their totally reasonable and relevant witnesses, Hunter Biden and Nancy Pelosi.
In the end, Operation Goat Rodeo would likely have been a fantastic success for the R’s.
guachi
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes. Should I pick different words to make you happier? Should I haul out my thesaurus because I couldn’t think of better words while typing on my phone? I’m sorry my English skill is leaving you disappointed.
janesays
People are acting as if the choice to not call witnesses is the Democrats blowing the opportunity to make a slam dunk case for Trump’s conviction.
Only one problem with that… the Democrats have already made a slam dunk case for Trump’s conviction. And he’s not going to be convicted. And even if we had witnesses, he still wouldn’t be convicted. This thing was rigged from the get-go, and the choice to call or not call witnesses wasn’t going to change a damn thing.
It seems most in this thread acknowledge that Trump would still not have been convicted even with witnesses, but I guess there’s some feeling that it would have moved the greater public opinion in some way.
How so?
Anybody who is paying attention to this stuff is already pretty dead set in their opinion on whether or not Trump should be convicted for this. The ones who don’t have a strong opinion one way or another aren’t watching any of this, and aren’t going to start watching this just because witnesses get called. It’s not going to move the needle. People have made up their minds.
We know he’s guilty as fuck, we know he’s a danger to the Republic, and we know there is no excuse for him being allowed to run for office ever again. Knowing all of that doesn’t change the fact that he is going to be acquitted. And knowing all that doesn’t change the fact that the people who support him will continue to support him, the people who oppose him will continue to oppose him, and the people who don’t care will continue to not care.
It’s time to move on. The Democrats did not fail us. The system has failed us. Impeachment is a toothless tool, and will be for the rest of our lives. I’m glad we impeached him. Both times. I think each case was righteous. We’ve won the moral battle. We were always going to lose the tactical one, because the game was rigged against us from the get-go.
patrick II
@Baud:
I know Kamala can’t preside, can she still vote to break ties?. I have read that Biden’s White House had been arranging transportation for Kamala to come over to vote if necessary.
Even the VP can’t preside seems on shaky ground, since it was meant to protect conflict of interest in someone who might make themselves president — not at issue here.
Elizabelle
@Mary G: Reading it and will pull out some excerpts for you shortly.
Have not forgotten Ken and the WaPost story on Lindsey “Pilot Fish” Graham and Georgia, either.
Ice storm (mildish, so far) in progress and internet has been a tad spotty this afternoon.
Martin
@Just Some Fuckhead: I think just removing incumbency advantages due to fundraising would achieve the right result. Though an age limit of 40 would be nice.
jonas
This isn’t complicated. There was a vote to call witnesses, but then other Republicans, starting with Lindsay Graham, made it clear that they would respond by subpoenaing hundreds of Democrats and browbeat them about everything from Hunter Biden to Dominion to the Satanic sex ring they run in the Capitol basement. I think when it became clear the whole thing would descend into a 12-ring circus, they said fuck it, it’s not going to make a lick of difference anyway so lets just depose Herrera and be done with it. If a majority of Senate Republicans want to go down in history as traitorous, corrupt assclowns, that’s on them.
Hoppie
@Martin: There will be lots of investigating, with witnesses and publicity. Agree we do not know what’s behind the scenes today (yet).
janesays
@guachi: Whose opinion is getting changed at this point, witnesses or not? I’m not talking about the senators, I’m talking about the Americans public.
Anybody who is undecided about whether or not Trump should be convicted isn’t watching this, and isn’t going to start watching this just because witnesses get called.
opiejeanne
@Just Some Fuckhead: It’s a quote from a movie, that apparently no one remembers except me, and my memory is faulty because I would swear it was one of the Tilly sisters who is married to a dentist or a vet in a very small town, meets a psychopath and falls for him, helps him kill her husband. I can’t remember the name of the movie, and can’t find it online
When they are finally arrested she repeatedly yells, “Don’t you hurt my Rudy! Leave my Rudy alone!”
p.a.
So now the Biden Admin/Dem legislative agenda is full speed ahead… given Manchin, Sinema, Tester… cooperation. So far the noises coming from them are positive, right?
Just Some Fuckhead
Don’t forget about Ben Ghazi.
James E Powell
@Baud:
This cannot be stressed enough.
Quinerly
CNN reporting that Gen. Keith Kellogg, the national security adviser to VP Pence, was in the Oval office w/ Trump as the Capitol riot unfolded,
Kellogg was in touch w/ the VP’s staff, who were relaying information about an endangered Pence to the WH.
“Kellogg was Pence’s national security adviser, so of course they knew exactly what the circumstance was,” a former Pence staffer told CNN.
The development challenges the argument made by Trump’s lawyer van der Veen who said on Friday that “at no point” was Trump aware that Pence was imperiled.
Xentik
@patrick II: See the link I posted above.
To summarize: The VP can only vote when presiding over the trial, and only in the case of a tie vote. Sen. Leahy is presiding, not Harris, so there cannot be a tie-breaker, as Leahy only gets his normal vote as a senator.
@Just Some Fuckhead: The republicans have never met a dead horse they wouldn’t happily beat on.
Shalimar
Ok, I’m done with the internet for a week or two. I would prefer witnesses too, but it isn’t the end of the world. All the people on twitter and other sites saying they will never vote for Democrats again over this are just incredibly depressingly stupid.
JMG
I still believe this was a big mistake. BUT, one year from now, who’ll remember? So I’m not as angry as I was even 30 minutes ago, due to therapeutic ice chopping in the driveway. I kind of agree with emptywheel’s guess that some Dem Senators, she says Manchin and King but it could be others, agreed to vote for witnesses so as not to repudiate the House managers, but then forced this deal on the caucus. With a no-vote majority, Schumer’s got to be ready to eat a lot of manure to keep his caucus together.
I will add, however, that if this starts a trend of knuckling under by Senate Democrats, the party will lose both houses of Congress in 2022 and will deserve it. But if it’s a one-hit wonder, it’ll probably pass. Sometimes a nation with attention deficit disorder can work for you.
opiejeanne
@CaseyL: Thank goodness. I thought they were all going to go live in a cave with a bowl and a spoon as their only possessions.
PJ
@Just Some Fuckhead: As I noted above, Leahy is a good case for a mandatory retirement age, but I am opposed to term limits and a retirement age for the many reasons that are usually raised (Biden and Pelosi are two good examples of people who I am very glad are in office now).
The ultimate problem, as is often with democracy, is with the voters – they are the ones who elect people who are over the hill. I am not a big fan of Tom Carper, but he won his election against Bill Roth, who was then 79, and very popular in DE, by never mentioning Roth’s age, but just stating that it was “time for a change.” Voters got the message then, but too often they do not.
Just Some Fuckhead
@opiejeanne: I’m sorry for missing it! Not much of a movie guy. I just assumed you were one of the people in Baud’s weird little cult.
patrick II
@Xentik:
Thanks. I was just thinking I should read a book on constitutional law before taking part in some of these discussions.
Omnes Omnibus
@guachi:
Yes. Yes, you should. Please endeavor to do better from now on.
different-church-lady
I dunno if the witness scenario was going to play out the way we think.
WE think having the Q-types spout nonsense in front of congress just makes their craziness more evident. But it could just as easily break towards putting fuel back in the tank of the reality distortion machine.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Leto: I’m aware of all the arguments against term limits. I have made them many times.
different-church-lady
I prefer to think the handles people use here are ironic and not literal. Please don’t disillusion me.
Just Some Fuckhead
I hope Van Der Veen gets a top job in the coming Trump junta. He really earned it.
johnnybuck
@Served: perhaps from a segment of people who refer to themselves as “Democrats.” As for the rest? People know what they know.
Zelma
Gotta say that getting this over is the best thing. Witnesses would not have changed a single vote and this is sucking up all the air in the room. More stuff is going to come out about 1/6 and Trump’s behavior and role. It will be.a drip, drip, drip. But in the meantime, maybe attention can be fixed on Biden’s actually doing the work of governing.
I’m not sure the media can get over it’s fixation on Trump but that would be a good thing.
LurkerNoLonger
This post proves Mister Mix is nothing but a troll with front page credentials. If only there was a way to pie front pagers on the front page.
Matt
“We’ll get ’em next time”
No we fucking won’t. I’ve been hearing this from Dems about GOP criminals for thirty years. We just saw them instigate a literal armed mob that very nearly decapitated the entire civilian government. The next time, it will work.
Just Some Fuckhead
@different-church-lady: That’s the second time in two days you’ve used the word tank. Are you still tanked?
different-church-lady
@LurkerNoLonger: I think he just over-reacts at times, not trolls.
Fair Economist
McConnell was going to use the trial as an excuse to drag out enacting Biden’s agenda and confirming the cabinet. The evidence was already compelling – the remaining Republican Senators are just disloyal to the country and all the witnesses in the world aren’t going to change any votes. We’ve gotten a week of the country and media talking about the insurrection, so there’s plenty of air on the topic. Time to move the conversation back to Democrats helping the country.
Just Some Fuckhead
Have you thought about scrolling by? That’s like a filter you control with your mouse.
different-church-lady
@Just Some Fuckhead:
No, I’m just old today.
SiubhanDuinne
@janesays:
Thank you. That was eloquent, and spot on IMO.
Josie
@Elizabelle: Agree completely.
lofgren
@PJ: Saying that Pelosi is an argument against age limits implies that nobody under 65 can do what Pelosi does. She is not irreplaceable. She is good at her job, but there are other people who can be good at jobs. Besideswhich she has made no effort to train or foster a successor. Maybe if she knew she was going to have to retire she’d have actually tried to create some kind of legacy.
feebog
Didn’t read every single comment, but throwing my 2 cents in anyway. The House Managers are a very competent and experienced group of lawyers. They can count to 100. Undoubtedly, they have done a headcount and know they will be short of 67 votes for conviction. Getting Herrera-Butler to give live testimony (it would have been a deposition, not in front of the Senate) may have been better theatre, but a stipulation has the same weight as live testimony. Plus, it’s hearsay, not direct evidence. Anyone who wants to dispute my take, have at it, you can start by identifying 17 Republican Senators that you think would vote for conviction.
Just Some Fuckhead
@different-church-lady: I’m sorry. FWIW, you don’t seem old.
Anonymous At Work
@Baud: And 50 Democrats + Mitt Romney = “Democrats are hiding things, elect Republicans to ‘drain the swamp’ of protecting Hunter Biden”, etc. No winners in this fight.
For dropping the demand, Democrats got the potential testimony read into the record as if it were true (and not hearsay), giving a bit more fuel for the infighting among Republicans. And Democrats get to move onto nominations and stimulus that much sooner. The stimulus is the big win for Democrats.
pajaro
I don’t post here that often, but I did in a previous thread today. One can imagine (I certainly have) a different kind of trial, with witnesses including some of the police victims, with office assistants in the White House relating Trump and his family high-fiving, with accounts from Georgia, etc. But that was simply not the kind of trial that the impeachment managers planned. There was absolutely no plan, prior to last night, to put on witnesses. A trial of that sort would have taken weeks, if not months. In addition to the fact that it would have stopped or at least slowed down the emergency legislation that is required, it’s anyones guess how effective our accountability moment would have been had everyone waited until the summer to have had it. Seriously, those of you who are complaining, show me a bit of evidence that a trial with subpoenas, the accompanying court challenges, depositions and witness testimony was planned.
The request for witnesses occurred because of last night’s statement by the Republican Congresswoman. Had there been witnesses, they would almost certainly occurred as part of an agreement that would have limited the number. Any witnesses called would been limited in number; any called would, according to the rules, have been deposed before there was any testimony entered, and, like the Clinton impeachment, it is likely that the trial testimony would have consisted of deposition excerpts.
I don’t think this is some big climb-down. The negotiation accomplished what the managers (not necessarily we) were after following last night–to get the Congresswoman’s account into the record.
I also think it’s a real mistake to look at this as Senate perfidy–again, there was never a plan from the outset by the House managers to have witnesses–if there had been, we would know who they were likely to be.
Also, I think that all this stuff about weak Democrats, etc. should be freaking banished. These members of Congress are actual people, who are now in a workplace with lunatics who would just as soon see them dead, in at least some cases. Do you think for a millisecond that they don’t know who they are dealing with? Do you think the Senators are unaware? And yes, Jamie Raskin is a hero. It doesn’t mean he’s always right, but man, do he and the other managers deserve our respect.
In terms of the devastating effect, please get a grip. How many people do you think are actually watching this right now?
Omnes Omnibus
Evidence?
different-church-lady
@Just Some Fuckhead: It seems things are seldom what they seem.
opiejeanne
@Just Some Fuckhead: Oh, but I am one of the people in Baud’s weird large cult.
scribbler
Dead thread probably, but wow. This place can go to hell in a handbasket in a hurry.
MisterForkbeard
I’m in the camp of “Would have preferred witnesses but it doesn’t matter much”.
NONE of the witnesses would have cooperated with the Democrats. If they called McCarthy to talk about the phone call, he would have just lied. And the entire conference would have cooperated with him, except for 3-4 representatives. It would have looked very bad on TV. And that’s the easiest, slam-dunk case.
Now contrast this with Republicans calling 50 or so witnesses on spurious grounds and doing the false equivalence thing. They’d also call several friendly witnesses to lie and say Trump was totally against the rioting, etc. They only need ONE democratic witness to screw up on the stand and say something that might look bad when you edit it on put it on Fox News, and they’ve gotten what they want out of it. And in the meantime, they’re gumming up the Senate.
Republicans were never going to vote to acquit – they’re just evil, mendacious liars in a cult. Democrats’ job here was to show the country how much they’re lying and in the tank for Trump and give them chance after chance to do the right thing, without losing any points or looking bad. They did that. This “we’ll call witnesses but maybe we won’t” thing is stupid and overblown.
Just Some Fuckhead
@different-church-lady: No way, everything is always exactly what it is.
Just Some Fuckhead
@opiejeanne: Did your eyes glow when you said that?
SiubhanDuinne
Well, damn. Jamie Raskin has me crying again. I think he’s done that every day this week.
Omnes Omnibus
@MisterForkbeard: Nitpick: Surely you meant convict rather than acquit in the first sentence of your last paragraph.
West of the Rockies
@opiejeanne:
Step away from the baud-flavored Kool Aid!
opiejeanne
@West of the Rockies: Shan’t!
Omnes Omnibus
::shutters::
JohnC
@Shalimar: The temper tantrums we are seeing on Twitter about the witnesses thing depress the hell out of me as well. I hope you don’t stay away very long – but you need to heal.
Just Some Fuckhead
Oh man, that gave me a pang of nostalgia for Corner Stone.
opiejeanne
@Just Some Fuckhead: ??
why would you even ask?
JohnC
@LurkerNoLonger: Mistermix seems to lose his temper and sometimes even lose the plot more often than the other front-pagers, but he’s smart and coming from the right place. He’s full of rage, as are the rest of us. We’re all human.
JohnC
@janesays: Thank you for this.
Martin
@MisterForkbeard: I think the chain of command that could have answered questions about how the national guard rollout occurred would have testified. And the secret service.
But those things will still happen, and Republicans will have to forever defend their vote just as we demanded of Democrats that voted for the Iraq War.
opiejeanne
@Just Some Fuckhead: What happened to Corner Stone?
Just Some Fuckhead
@MisterForkbeard: Can the respective chambers subpoena each others members? I’ve never heard that answered.
Just Some Fuckhead
I dunno. My theory is Baud and Omnes caught him and ate him.
Omnes Omnibus
@Just Some Fuckhead: Some of us are trying to keep the light shining.
zhena gogolia
@Martin:
Yes.
Omnes Omnibus
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Not true. Baud doesn’t share.
janesays
@Matt: And calling witnesses this time would prevent that… how?
zhena gogolia
@Almost Retired:
Hey, get with the program! //
wmd
I’d like to see Pence deposed:
“Mr Pence, please tell me your thoughts about why people were shouting to hang you from the scaffold they set up outside the Capitol. What did you say to your family while you were barricaded in a secure area waiting for rescue? Did you receive any communications about when help would arrive to secure your safety from the President while you were in peril?”
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
❤️?????????????❤️
dnfree
@Just Some Fuckhead: What is the point of loathing anyone here?
WaterGirl
@pajaro: Thanks for this! You should comment more. :-)
Omnes Omnibus
@dnfree: One presumes it is entertainment.
Just Some Fuckhead
@dnfree: Why does there have to be a point to it?
Geminid
@lofgren: That “Nancy Pelosi has made no effort to foster and train a successor” is one of those ideas that is repeated so often that many people believe it is actually true. It’s not. There are several younger Democratic Representatives with the talent and work ethic to take Speaker Pelosi’s place. Brooklyn Congressman Hakeem Jeffries is the most obvious. Jeffries already serves as Democratic Caucus Chairman, and was reelected last November without opposition. And there is no particular way Speaker Pelosi can “train” a future Speaker except by example, and she provides an excellent model.
zhena gogolia
@LurkerNoLonger:
I’m beginning to agree with you.
Bill Arnold
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
Graham’s goal (or a main goal) appears to be delaying the confirmation of Merrick Garland , and hoping that the Rs will get lucky with a D Senator’s death or disability before then. Perhaps it is driven by personal fear.
dnfree
@wvng: excellent point. I too remember Ted Kennedy’s death, followed by the Democrats putting up a lackluster candidate and losing the seat. Move now.
James E Powell
@Omnes Omnibus:
Exactly. I do get the desire to continue throwing stuff at Trump & his enablers. But everyone screaming about witnesses has to answer: Which senators would change their votes? Which member of the public would change her opinion or understanding of what occurred?
I fully expect the Republicans to shout that there was insufficient evidence. They would do that even if there was a station wagon full of nuns.
The press/media is going to slam the Dems but that’s because they are in love with spectacle over good government. They are addicted to Trump & the constant drama of the Trump era.
If Democrats are going to win the midterms, then Biden & the two slim-majority houses need to get to work to pass relief, get covid under control, and get the economy stable again. That’s all that will matter in November 2022.
The Thin Black Duke
Hey guys. I’m late to the thread, but I’m not going to pile on and trash Democrats, sorry.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: Ah, thank you.
You remind me I need to check in on the Met Opera page at wine o’clock to catch the Ach… opera you and Tim … recommended. Did figure out how to include the subtitles in English.
I can see why the Met was holding a costumes sale a while back. There were a lot of non-singing people in last night’s opera. Tons of people sashaying around the stage. And Pavarotti.
Made me resolve to see an opera or two, in person, once we’re clear of Covid danger. I hear Barcelona’s opera tickets can be affordable. Regret I did not attend last trip.
“Democrat leaders.” Wince. It’s van der Vile. Chasing an ambulance. For free, apparently. LOL.
Elizabelle
@The Thin Black Duke: That’s what I like about you! Among many other excellent qualities.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: troll implies, to me, some level of insincerity in the shit-stirring. I think Mix is a very sincere emo-Bernie Bro. As I recall, he got his tie-dye down out of the attic over metadata (remember when that was why Obama was worse than Bush?) and never took it back up.
Martin
Well, this closing is something. I just realized that it’s Democrats that hate America. Why introduce the two CA police that were shot, when they were shot by Trump supporters?
I’m not sure I’d give Raskin this much ammunition when he has 28 minutes in reserve.
Another Scott
True? Maybe? Dunno.
True? Maybe? Seems unlikely, but maybe that was the deal.
Cheers,
Scott
Martin
“Professor, how do we know when we’re overreaching in a closing argument?”
“Here, I have some video for you from 2021”
different-church-lady
@James E Powell:
The applicable analogy might be “declaring” in cricket: you’re well ahead, but you’re worried the match will end without a result before time, so you give up your opportunity to score even more, banking on the idea it’s unrealistic the other team can make up the difference.
The big difference here is the Dems know there’s no way for them to win on conviction — instead they want to lock in the political gains, and witnesses might give the GOP an opportunity to undo them.
I don’t know if this is the right strategy, I’m just thinking out loud.
PJ
@Elizabelle:
The “Democrat leader” thing kills me. His whole defense is just whataboutism.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Martin: I totally missed the blacks attacking the Capitol and the WH back in June. I guess the liberal media covered it up.
Kathleen
@Mary G: I agree.
@Baud: FWIW, you’re one of the main reasons I read BJ. I always appreciate your reasoned grasp of reality and push backs against the “How The Democrats Disappointed Me Today” club.
different-church-lady
@Another Scott:
Scorpion gonna sting frog.
Bill Arnold
@JPL:
Nah, he’ll be punched down (Novel, that. He no longer has control over the State punching machines. :-) His brain will continue to deteriorate. His general health will either deteriorate or remain stable, depending on in part stress levels, which can be manipulated by the ruthless. He will be even more tightly enclosed in the right-wing meme cesspool, the only windows to the world being televisions showing far right RW propaganda and RW golf buddies; this will cause him to make a lot of huge political mistakes. He will grift “reelection” money from his supporters, which won’t get spent on helping Republicans in 2022 (or 2024) (and might even be used to harm them, either deliberately or due to miscalculation). Etc.
lashonharangue
I am not going to stress about this since conviction was never going to happen. Pass some legislation that regular people care about and get the nominations through. Don’t forget there are hundreds of defendants that the DOJ can offer deals to in exchange for testimony regarding connections to the WH and other Rs. This will be playing out over the next 2 years. Plenty of time to switch into campaign mode for 2022.
zhena gogolia
PJ
@Bill Arnold: Don’t forget the “defense fund” money, too. Trump may make more money grifting as a defendant than he did as President or a candidate.
different-church-lady
@JPL:
There’s just no way the wooden stake was going to penetrate that layer of GOP senators.
waratah
Cruz wrote this closing?
Martin
I can’t tell if this guy doesn’t know that he’s not trying a criminal case, or if he thinks this is a sufficient diversion and is just running with it.
Suzanne
I’m pissed.
I know that nothing prevents an acquittal. But history matters. Smearing the GOP’s reputation matters. All that we can do at this point is humiliate these people who enabled this and we just gave that away.
Just Some Fuckhead
@waratah: Sounds more like a Rush Limbaugh rant with some suspect legal stuff thrown in by Rudy Guiliani.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I do think Biden wants it over quick, but I don’t think that’s the only explanation. At least as large a factor is that however many small steps they may have taken over the years, Romney, Collins, Murkowski et al are Republicans first, and Americans after.
Adding to that: I suspect that Murkowski– besides her desire to scratch every last sell-able natural resource out of the Alaskan soil– sees that trump has changed the party enough that she can’t do in 2022 what she did in 2010, even with the new rules up there.
There was an interview with Collins in the Portland paper–now behind a paywall so I won’t bother searching– in which she was asked, essentially, why she was still a Republican. Her response (from memory) was to say, do you know who’s chair of the Appropriations Committee if the Republicans hold the Senate?” and pointed to herself. Susan Collins is a time-serving mediocrity who is (in her own mind if more than in reality) one of the most important people in the country. She’s gonna risk that over a brief show of principle?
Romney: Much as I suspect he might like to get the kind of plaudits his father did and does, times have changed. Much as he might like to get the kind of praise and affection John McCain did and does, he doesn’t know how to hate.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
Akhnaten, by Philip Glass. It’s about the pharaoh (aka Amenhotep IV) who ruled Egypt in the 14th century BCE, and who attempted to bring monotheism to his people.
I happen to love Glass’ music, and this production is visually stunning.
But you’ll want to check in soon. The feed ends at 6:30 pm EST.
James E Powell
@different-church-lady:
I afraid I don’t know from cricket, though I’d love a good explainer. Back in the 70s, some cricket teams (sides?) from Australia came to Cleveland Municipal Stadium to demonstrate. They had a guy explain the game while it was being played. But with the combination of the accent and the public address slapback, I could not understand anything the guy said.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Martin: I’m waiting for him to start describing the horrible injuries his client suffered in the car wreck.
Suzanne
“Amonimous”?!
Kathleen
@opiejeanne: So am I.
Elizabelle
@Mary G: Excerpting and summarizing the Wall Street Journal article today. TLDR: both NYC and NYS are taking a good hard look at his real estate valuation and the applications he submitted when he refinanced his Manhattan properties, as well as an estate in Westchester County. He could be too busy in court to run again in 2024.
No one has any tax returns yet — Manhattan DA Cyrus Vance’s subpoena is in limbo while Trump appeals to the US Supreme Court — again! — on different grounds. No indication yet on whether the USSC will hear the second Trump appeal.
The Manhattan properties under review are:
And the WSJ buried one tidbit but good, paragraphs down. Maybe it’s important, maybe it’s not. Trump refinanced his Manhattan properties through Ladder Capital Corporation, a real estate investment trust which makes loans and repackages them to investors. Lo and behold,
Shades of Justice Kennedy’s son who worked for Deutsche Bank, or maybe not. Back to the WSJ:
Anyway, NYC and NYS are turning up the heat on Trump’s real estate financing, which may involve fraud, and that’s all good. And, the Trump Tower loan — $100 million — comes due next year. 2022. Drumbeat.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Romney’s a bit of a cipher. Utah is a red state that’s not real keen on Trump. If Romney was the senator from Alabama, would he be operating differently? He’s always been a massive political opportunist.
He’s a wealthy classist. Is he disgusted on some level by the short-fingered vulgarian?
He’s a deeply religious man. Does his religion drive his behavior vis a viv Trump?
Who knows.
West of the Rockies
@Kathleen:
Quite so. Baud is very funny, but when he is serious, listen up because he brings insight and linear perspective.
Just Some Fuckhead
Look at all the love you’re getting here, Baud. You’re welcome.
Kathleen
@The Thin Black Duke: Thank you! Always been a fan.
Martin
Man, this closing could have been co-written by Hannity and Trump.
Geminid
@Geminid: Some of those propagating the trope that Speaker Pelosi has not fostered a successor know very well about Hakeem Jeffries’ potential. They just don’t want him as Speaker, think he is not “progressive” enough. But that is no excuse for misleading the less informed, and speaks to the bad faith which which they make this criticism of Speaker Pelosi.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: It’s Philip Glass! Even better. Love him.
I figured out, last night, that as long as you start the video replay before it disappears at 7:30 pm, you are golden.
FWIW, Amazon Prime does that too. A video might be leaving at 3:00 pm Pacific, but if you’re watching it and keep it up on your screen, you can watch it as long as you like.
Kathleen
@West of the Rockies: Absolutely true. I always appreciate his insight.
RaflW
@Elizabelle: “No one has any tax returns yet.”
Of all the ridiculousness of the GOP/MAGA howls about “deep state”, the fact that Trump’s tax returns have never leaked (except the scraps that the NYT got, probably thru a disgruntled tax preparation staffer from many years ago), I think we can surely say that the IRS is deep-less.
Elizabelle
I’m on the Baud fan train too. Although I often feel I am in the caboose. Or on some other set of tracks … oh well. Such is life.
Elizabelle
@RaflW: I would have lost a bet, because I thought those puppies would have surfaced long before now.
And der Trump continues to run out the clock, delay, delay, delay.
Josie
@lofgren:
How do you know that she has trained no one? Are you in congress or are you a staffer? Do you expect people to go around with “Trainee” pinned on their front? I have seen any number of excellent choices among the people she has chosen as impeachment managers, and I’m pretty sure she has trained a couple. She is known for taking the long view.
RaflW
@Elizabelle: It’s difficult enough to get the rich to file quasi-accurate tax returns. If they thought they’d be subject to leaks, we’d see them offshoring and cooking more books, I suspect.
Even as it is, the Trump era shift away from auditing high income people is just disgusting.
Another Scott
@Just Some Fuckhead: Nope and nope.
The problem isn’t that people are in office too long, or that they are too old. The problem is the seniority system. Leadership should be determined by votes from peers, not years in office. If Leahy is 100 years old and can convince his peers that he can do the job – great. If he’s 100 years old and needs staff to whisper in his ears what to say and do as a backbencher, then that’s up to his voters whether that’s what they want. But he shouldn’t get an important leadership or chairmanship just because he’s been in office for 60 years.
I think Billin makes the point that if politicians rotate out in arbitrary timelines, then the lobbyists have much more power. He’s right.
Virginia has a 1 term limit for Governor. It means the polls play musical chairs. AG to LG to Gov, or Gov to Senator, or similar. It doesn’t help governance.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@opiejeanne: I thought it was a variation on Leave Britney Alone!.
Cheers,
Scott.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
holy shit, they’re voting alread
ETA: came in in the middle, Romney and Sasse voted guilty
Toomey too,
57-43 is the final vote
James E Powell
Seven Republicans vote guilty. The house managers did as well as anyone could have.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Sasse, Toomey, Romney, Murkowski, Collins, Burr and Cassidy voted to convict
ETA: pretty surprised at those last two. I would’ve bet Cassidy was for acquittal, Burr wasn’t on my radar at all.
Shalimar
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Burr has reason to personally hate Trump. He was head of Senate Intelligence, investigating Russian aid of Trump in 2016, when he had to step down under threat of Justice Department investigation for insider trading. Which magically disappeared once he gave up his chair.
Kent
Burr is retiring just like Toomey. And he’s old so probably done with all this shit. Not aiming for some K-street gig.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Another Scott: Yes, I’ve made those arguments myself. RE: Virginia, there’s no case there because I’m not suggesting we limit Congress to one term. As a Virginian, I think the one term limit is ridiculous. But if it changed, it would change to two terms like most states. Two terms is term limits.
Barbara
@guachi: No. That’s not it at all. This isn’t Perry Mason. Depositions are low drama drawn out affairs. It’s like mining for gold in an avalanche. I believe this is a good decision.
opiejeanne
@Another Scott: That works too. Why didn’t I think of that instead of the hilarious lines at the end of an obscure, extremely violent movie that had us rooting for the cops?
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I figured Romney, Murkowski and maaaaybe Collins would vote to convict, but I am really surprised at the other four. Good for them.
opiejeanne
@Betty Cracker: I’m not terribly disappointed that they decided to call it today. The seven R votes point to the cowardice/insanity of the rest of the Senators.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: I had Colllins over Murkowski, given their respective election calendars, and Murkowski’s praise of trump’s lawyers, but yeah, credit where due. This time.
Juju
As a North Carolinian, good job Senator Burr. I tried to call bot of my senators but got busy signals. For once I’m not ashamed of both of my senators.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Betty:
Bring back Gary Hart.
James E Powell
Mitch Fucking McConnell is laying out the case because he knows that Trump is now a millstone around Republicans’ necks. He doesn’t need the Trump horde to get re-elected, I know, but he sounds like he is personally angry.
Chyron HR
@wmd:
No , you wouldn’t, because he’d just say, “Donald Trump is a great man. Antifa attacked the capitol. May I be excused now?”
gwangung
@Josie:
I think the relevant question to ask is…what behavior constitutes grooming a successor? And would they be reported in the press or on social media? And would any non-politician recognize them for what they are?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gwangung: word was that Crowley wanted the job, she liked him, and he had a lot of support. The fact that he didn’t see AOC coming, and couldn’t fend her off when he did, does not say great things about his potential. Pelosi, like Clinton, seems to have a pretty good sense for the national electoral map, to say nothing of her own district
Juju
@James E Powell: I was just going to ask if McConnell was actually saying anything of importance, because all I hear is something that sounds like an old hound dog howling and no actual words. My brain has been a bit scrambled with stress and a lack of sleep, so it just may be me.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: Burr typically votes with his caucus. One other exception to that pattern was during the 2010 lame duck session, when he was one of six Republican Senators to vote to repeal Don’t Ask Don’t Tell and allow openly gay people to serve in the military. Burr was the only Southerner; the other Republicans were from New England or the Midwest. That was not a politically expedient vote, but North Carolina has a lot of service members stationed there, and perhaps Burr was persuaded by first hand accounts of the injustice of the then-current situation.
Captain C
@James E Powell: It’s too bad he doesn’t have, say, a Senate seat which would have given him the opportunity to vote guilty
cain
I’m afraid that’s not going to work – remember these people live in a right wing bubble – Fox News can choose not to cover the democratic testimony and only the Republican one and then augment that. This is a _cult_ – it won’t matter. They get their source of news from a few places and no other.
Unless it is personal, they aren’t going to get it. They have to personally be in a court and be convicted. I’m much more interested in seeing the DOJ pursue everyone. We also need to find ways to squelch the right wing noise machine – if we can hammer the AM radio station we can force them to move to cable.
We really need to get folks who understand how to break up cults and get their input to help policy and it can’t be national it has to be state by state. We need to wage this from a state by state perspective.
James E Powell
@Captain C:
He is not going to surrender his minority leader position
ETA – Dana Bash is making your argument on CNN.
janesays
Here’s something that should make everyone smile…. just imagine how much Trump is completely losing his shit right now over his inability to go on a rage-tweeting binge screaming in all caps: “TOTALLY ACQUITTED!!!!”
James E Powell
@Juju:
He made the case that Trump was guilty, but hung his hat on the jurisdiction issue. It is not huge news, but it is significant that the Republican senate leader agrees, factually & legally, that Trump committed offenses for which he would have been convicted & removed, but for the jurisdiction.
ETA – Everybody on CNN is tearing him a new one with “Why the fuck didn’t you say this before?”
Just Some Fuckhead
@James E Powell: The jurisdiction issue was only an issue because McConnell wouldn’t hold a Senate trial before Trump left office. And to be fair, the House’s failure to move on impeachment quicker gave McConnell better cover to punt.
James E Powell
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I’m not arguing anything, I’m just reporting what he said.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Another Scott: Do you think we should remove the two term limit on the presidency?
Juju
@James E Powell: thanks for the summary.
lowtechcyclist
Hours later, I’m still feeling totally kicked in the gut by this.
No, it wasn’t about getting back to Covid relief – both houses of Congress are on recess for the next week.
No, the GOP couldn’t have forced hundreds of witnesses on them.
And no, this wasn’t about trying to actually convict Trump. That was never the goal of this. The goal was always to ruin the GOP’s reputation with anyone still reachable.
Two things: numero uno, the actual testimony would have made Trump look a lot worse than a stipulation will, and would have made the Pubbies look far more craven for voting to acquit; and numero two-o, this would have kept the McCarthy-Trump conversation in the news for at least another day – and that would have been a very good thing if you want to make the Republicans really look like shit, and destroy what’s left of their reputation among those who aren’t totally Foxified.
But it’s important to hammer this shit home with the general public. Just a few hours as the top story won’t make much difference at all.
Just Some Fuckhead
@lowtechcyclist: If that’s your concern then McConnell just moved the needle on that more than the impeachment did with his “lock Trump up” speech.
Hoppie
@dnfree: Worse than that. A new election in Vermont would need to be held within six months; until then, Vermont would be represented by a temporary appointment by the Republican governor.
So say buh-bye to a 50-50 Senate.
Brachiator
@lowtechcyclist:
Ah, no. The goal is to convict Trump, or to at least show why he should be convicted.
This goal has been accomplished.
Witnesses might have been nice. But we are far beyond that.
I don’t give a shit about Trump’s reputation, and I don’t give a fuck about who might be reachable for some future election.
I do care that the Republicans have given a wink and a nod to overthrowing the government.
I do care that for a good chunk of the population, the United States means a country that it for the benefit of a bunch of stupid white people with guns.
Miss Bianca
@CaseyL:
Same here. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and opine that maayybe the House impeachment managers know a little better than I do what’s going to work best at this point.
Geminid
@cain: A few of these right wing cult members will drift away on their own. If Democrats are able to provide good governance, some more will wake up and smell the coffee. But we’re just not going to deprogram that many of the 74 million who voted for trump. Probably the best we can do is to beat them decisively at the polls, and keep doing that. Try to keep our 81 million engaged, and increase them.
Of course the really bad right-wingers will require proactive measures, such as purging them from law enforcement, aggressively prosecuting hate crimes, placing good undercover agents among militias, training bomb-sniffing dogs, etc.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
Bernie woulda won witnesses
Lyrebird
James E Powell
@Lyrebird:
Not on the internet!
James E Powell
@James E Powell:
Watching the house managers’ press conference. I remain amazed the extent to which the Beltway press takes whatever the Republicans are putting out and hammers Democrats with it as if it were the only thing that matters.
different-church-lady
IMPEACH
HIM
AGAIN
TOMORROW
.
cain
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It will be an interesting political calculation on their part. I wonder they hope to create a schism in the party and be able to leaders of that along with Cheney.
The 7 GOP should be praised for adhering to their oath and protecting the Constitution – unlike these other cowards.
Just Some Fuckhead
It’s been really awesome watching Neil Katyal who used to describe himself as an “extremist centrist” turn into a raging hippie.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Miss Bianca: Or maybe people can just express their own wrongheaded opinions without suffering the tyranny of the majority? What the hell is wrong with you people? It’s entirely reasonable to hold the opinion that witnesses were necessary (I don’t agree) and be disappointed witnesses weren’t called. It’s entirely reasonable to look for someone to blame for that. You people do that all day for your various positions. What is your obsession with forcing hegemony of thought? Do you feel like your own positions are jeopardized because other people have a different position?
cain
@Geminid:
I’m not so sure. Some may have peeled away with the insurrection, but a lot of them are in a bubble – their friends, church, and community all listening to the same news. I think we need to start rattling the cages. If we do not, we have a national security problem – because these people will politicize everything even a threat to the nation.
janesays
Is losing the House and Senate in 2022 a big priority for us?
dww44
@JPL:
I disagree with your assessment. We shall see what the courts proceed to do. Trump is not off scott free yet.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
So the GOP chickened out as predicted and it’s all the Dems fault? Nothing ever changes.
StringOnAStick
@cain: Sending a bunch of the insurrectionists to jail will certainly rattle a cage or two.
Geminid
@cain: I understand the aspiration. I have yet to hear someone propose realistic program to achieve it. But we can win elections without converting any of these folks, and to the extent they are security threats they can be treated as such, I think.
But I tend to see this as a declining group numerically, and generationally. And I am used living in Republican areas. My Virginia county supervisors even declared it to be a “2nd Amendment Sanctuary,” not that it has made a discernable difference. So as long as the Democrats elsewhere in Virginia outvote the Republicans I’m good. I might feel differently, though, if I were not white, male, and straight.
J R in WV
@Just Some Fuckhead:
So amazed!! Good for you, better for Nextdoor…
Just Some Fuckhead
@J R in WV: Did you decide pieing me didn’t give you the satisfaction of acting like a spurned little bitch? Are you pacing around your double-wide trying to come up with awesome slams?
Geminid
@Just Some Fuckhead: Well, I kept reading the thread, just like you suggested. And I still think you are full of shit.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Geminid: Which argument specifically?
WaterGirl
We are surely all horrified that most of the Republicans in the senate are exactly who we thought they were – cowards who just spit on the constitution and took a dump on their oath to do impartial justice. Is that what all this bickering is about? Are we letting our frustration come out sideways?
Just Some Fuckhead
@WaterGirl: Well, no. I think Geminid is pissed I blew his cover.
Just Some Fuckhead
@WaterGirl: A hit dog squeals.
Geminid
@WaterGirl: My last comment concerned #335 of this thread. I don’t like to get into personal attacks, but I really did not like what was said.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Geminid: You literally started in this thread with a personal attack on me. See #128.
Geminid
@Just Some Fuckhead I said you and the front pager were full of shit, and that the Democrats I know are not as high maintenance as you seem to be. Do you think this is equivalent to yours at #335.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Geminid:
Geminid
@Just Some Fuckhead: Last night you were crying about the pushback you got for complaining about a painful covid shot. You asked, “Are you people broken?”
But when you want to go after someone, you don’t hestitate to go, and go nasty. You love to dish it out, but you can’t take it. You are dishonest in argument, and hypocritical to boot. I don’t need to pie you to ignore you.
And don’t bother trying to insult me because you can’t.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Geminid: JR didn’t attack me because I asked if people were broken. And neither did you. So don’t pretend this is about that.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Geminid: Also, where have I attacked you. This is all on you.
The Lodger
@Shalimar: And who took over for Burr at Intelligence? Lil Marco.