U.S. service members have officially completed the largest non-combatant evacuation in U.S. military history – evacuating more than 122,000 people from Afghanistan since the end of July. The women and men who completed this mission have ended America's longest war. pic.twitter.com/z4fsStXUYz
— The White House (@WhiteHouse) August 30, 2021
Secretary of State Antony Blinken:
“We made extraordinary efforts to give Americans every opportunity to depart the country … We believe there are still a small number of Americans, under 200 and likely closer to 100, who remain in Afghanistan and want to leave." pic.twitter.com/k2O2KHkbqV
— JM Rieger (@RiegerReport) August 30, 2021
Tomorrow’s speech is scheduled for 1:30 p.m. ET, the White House says. https://t.co/foSxpp3oFQ
— Jennifer Epstein (@jeneps) August 30, 2021
More than 58,000 U.S. soldiers died in Vietnam.
Fewer than 2,500 U.S. soldiers died in Afghanistan.
Maybe everyone calm the f**k down for a spell and reflect. https://t.co/WW9OQSQek5— Daniel W. Drezner (@dandrezner) August 30, 2021
Let’s highlight the most important detail from this poll. https://t.co/YhlrLBEZPb pic.twitter.com/rFSmPC44wq
— Daniel W. Drezner (@dandrezner) August 31, 2021
Baud
If it makes you feel better, we’re still fighting the Civil War.
debbie
The self-inflicted defeat occurred back in December 2001, FFS.
lowtechcyclist
And it would have been more like 2% if the media hadn’t gone apeshit.
OzarkHillbilly
Will somebody please slap the piss out of that fuckwhistle Lindsey Graham?
OzarkHillbilly
And chances are the 100-200 Americans still there would have dawdled to the last minute anyway and still missed the bus.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
No, I’m concerned he might enjoy it.
Kay
NotMax
Blast from the past.
When the vaunted grand opening of major public infrastructure included dive bombings.
OzarkHillbilly
Repeating myself for those who don’t read the Covid threads:
@raven: Yep, still haven’t been able to talk to the NOLA boy but via a friend of a friend of his MiL’s on facebook my eldest son has received word that they are OK. They lost some of their roofing which let water in, causing their bedroom ceiling to collapse but AFAIK no other damage to their home.
Safe to assume they have no power and I wonder about water and sewer. Hopefully we will be able to talk in the next day or 2 and I can assess what help they might need and whether or not I can provide it from up here or if I can get down there.
Montanareddog
@OzarkHillbilly: What’s he said this time?
OzarkHillbilly
@Montanareddog: Lindsey Graham repeats impeachment call for former friend Joe Biden
debbie
@OzarkHillbilly:
Someone else (from Indiana, I think?) is calling for Blinken’s impeachment.
Kay
Good explanation of what happens in an evacuation and why some people wait until the last minute,
SiubhanDuinne
@OzarkHillbilly:
Oh hell. What’s he done now?
ETA: Never mind. Just saw your #11.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
God damn, how do you parody nonsense like that? LOL Yes, CNN, one event that only 10% of the population cares about will define the Biden Administration. CNN hasn’t gone Fox, they’ve gone Onion.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Kay: These days I wouldn’t be surprised if many thought the evacuation was fake news.
JPL
@OzarkHillbilly: I’m so glad to hear that they are okay.
Geminid
According to the Jerusalem Post, Kabul saw a lot of celebratory gun fire when the last U.S. C-17 flew out. And our troops started the fireworks early at the airport, when they “rendered inoperable” a few dozen aircraft and MRAPs. They kept an anti-mortar and rocket system operating until the last few minutes, then destroyed it also.
sixthdoctor
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: The Onion article is far more accurate:
Nation Stunned That 20-Year Catastrophe Could End So Catastrophically
NotMax
FYI (from July).
Betty Cracker
My grandfather retired from the USAF and worked for Bell Helicopter all over the world, including in Iran. He was among the last Americans evacuated from that country during the revolution, and I remember him telling me what a complete shit-show it was. He torched his own car!
Hoodie
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Another fucking expat Brit pontificating about American politics. This is pretty typical for this asshat.
OzarkHillbilly
@JPL: I’m breathing a little easier.
NotMax
@Enhanced Voting Techniques
American deceptionalism.
//
WereBear
@Baud: True. The Confederacy is still with us, and must be crushed for the final time.
At least, to a remnant.
rikyrah
Good Morning Everyone ???
Kay
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
I think they’re deliberately muddling it up because they’re advocates- they want to get certain Afghans out so are portraying it as unfair or incompetent denials when really they started this thing with 34,500 visas available under the Afghan allies act so that was always the highest number leaving that way.
Anything past that 34.5 they’re using some other method, parole or some emergency intervention by someone powerful (member of Congress, etc). The 34.5 does not include immediate family members, so add them (estimate) and you’re at 70-75.
But they all knew it was 34, 500. That’s the number Congress authorized. Biden’s actual charge was get 34,500 Afghan’s out and their immediate family members. The rest is advocacy.
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
WereBear
@OzarkHillbilly: I’m so glad the storm was not as strong as predicted.
raven
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: The headline on the front page is worse.
America’s messy retreat raises questions about Biden’s leadership
raven
@WereBear: Are you kidding?
Soprano2
Do people think Americans somehow register with the American embassy every time they go to a foreign country? I’ve travelled overseas several times, and we never did anything like that. It’s hard to know how many Americans there are in any country. I think under the circumstances the evacuation went extremely well, with minimal loss of life. I would challenge the people who are so critical to say what they think could have been done better. I’m sure there’s something, because there’s always something that could have been better.
Is it just me, or did politicians not used to call for the impeachment of those in the opposite party every time they were unhappy with something they did? It seems to me this started when George W. was president. Am I misremembering? It does seem that Republicans really, really, really want Kamala Harris to become president, because she’s a lot easier for them to attack. I looked at some of my mother’s political mail. One mailer was about all the “racists” in the Biden administration. Of course, all but one of them were women, and most were women of color. One was Rachel Levine, of course. The one man was Anthony Blinken. I’ve also noticed that conservatives are working hard to promote their few non-white candidates. I saw quite a bit of mail about black Republicans.
raven
@Soprano2: Your first mistake:
“Do people think”
Baud
@raven:
No one knows how to plan a smooth war anymore.
cmorenc
CNN has gone all-in on Biden-Bashing today with FOX-like lead story headlines: “America’s messy retreat raises questions about Biden’s Leadership”…”The coming weeks are likely to offer an even more unflattering account of Biden’s failures than the one that happened in real time”.
sherparick1
@sixthdoctor: Actually, compared to other catastrophes, the end was only soured by one suicide bombing attack. Now Pakistan, having put the Taliban back in power after 20 years, is suddenly like the dog that caught the car.
Soprano2
@raven: ROFLMAO Yeah, that was my first mistake…
sherparick1
@cmorenc: Just editorializing the shit out this are they not.
narya
@raven: Oh FFS. The main reason I avoid so much of the news is exactly this. Last night Chris Hayes pointed out just how impressive this evacuation has been (he’s been pretty steady on that, actually). It’s not a cause for whooping and dancing, and service members and other people have died, but it has gone so much better than I hoped or imagined. Basically, it was another trap set by TFG that ended up letting us see what fking COMPETENCE looks like, but the media mostly hates that narrative. Competence is booorrrring. It’s not boring to ME, I must add.
SiubhanDuinne
@OzarkHillbilly:
Relieved to hear that your kids are safe, and hope you’re able to talk to both sons soon. It must be an indescribable relief.
NotMax
@raven
Nosher worship.
//
Immanentize
@OzarkHillbilly:
I’m joining you. Besides the house damage, it sounds like he got through with life and limb and loved ones? Im thinking N.O. and your youngest are a mix that might be best separated. If only to save you the sleepless nights.
Benw
@OzarkHillbilly: the best news I’ve heard about a ceiling collapse. Hope they stay OK
Kay
And Congress returned repeatedly to the Afghan Allies Act. They amended it over and over. They broadened the whole category in 2014. They added 8000 visas in June of this year. So for there to be this shock and outrage at this point is just more ass-covering. If they were operating under the assumption that Biden wouldn’t actually go thru with it it looks like they guessed wrong.
Immanentize
@Kay:
There you have it. Old devout Irish Catholic gent could not be cowed or rolled.
germy
Now we can focus on the war at home.
Benw
@Baud: everyone knows how to plan a smooth war…
NotMax
@Immanentize
They can try but I somehow believe the attempt to paint him as a Muslim actually born in Ireland will not have legs.
//
The Moar You Know
Not over yet. The AUMF needs to be formally revoked, I think, or the next GOP dipshit (and a few Dems I can think of) that attains the presidency can start this all over again.
ryk
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Might as well go full Q about it. How could we botch the evacuation from Afghanistan when we were never even in Afghanistan? It’s all fake news
Peale
@Kay: I’m going to guess that there’s a nearly 100% overlap between the Afghanistan shriekers and those who wanted Trump to tear up the Iran deal. They expected Biden to do the same. They probably went ape over the withdrawal from Iraq, too. They probably don’t see themselves as imperialists. They just assume that the natural order of things is that we occupy countries indefinitely out of our paternal love for other people.
germy
Betty
Looking forward to the media hysteria calming down very soon. Until the next “catastrophe” of course.
BC in Illinois
Here is the morning “Message from Ann” from Rep. Ann Wagner (R – wherever the wind blows):
This woman (R – safe Republican vote) is a reliable weathervane for where the GOP winds are blowing.
germy
The war at home:
Ken
Hmm. Reibungsloskrieg, maybe?
NotMax
@Baud
Schmutzkrieg?
;)
Jeffro
@germy: it’s a great point because it’s 110% true
germy
MTG is complaining about refugees from Afghanistan. She says they’ll bring crime.
Jeffro
Jamelle Bouie has a (poorly-titled, but still) great column up in the Times noting that Abbott, DeSantis, Noem, Paul, Cruz, and other GQP leaders are basically pro-Covid in order to try and kneecap President Biden (by sabotaging pandemic recovery, never mind the cost to their own constituents)
Bouie should follow up with a column reminding voters that these same “leaders” could, in another and far better timeline, be in a race to see who could protect the highest percentage of their constituents. Their states could be issuing N95s to all students and teachers, for example; or insisting on vaccine AND mask mandates, etc. But they are doing the opposite, and at this point you have to feel like they’re doing it because Joe, that’s why.
germy
@Jeffro:
Even Bannon admitted his strategy was “flood the zone with bullshit” because he knew the beltway press couldn’t keep up.
Soprano2
@cmorenc: It’s crazy, like they’re comparing it to a mythical perfect evacuation rather than to real-life evacuations.
Baud
@Soprano2:
They’re purity trolling war.
Geminid
@germy: Greene’s opponent dropped out when his divorce left him without a home and he moved to Indiana to stay with relatives. He then tried to restart his campaign but his staff said no, they were moving on. It was a lost cause anyway; since the GA 14th District was created in 2011, no Democrat has come within 30% in a congressional race.
NotMax
@Baud
Those being evacuated received neither a swag bag nor a copy of the home game.
Gross incompetence!
Woodrow/asim
We’ve all grown up with that, implicitly, yes. Richard Engle(sp) is one ripe example of someone who has just fallen, badly, for that model. I’ve got people screaming in my twitter timeline (I follow Tweets from this region + Middle East/North Africa, and have for years) about how we have a “moral duty” to airlift anyone who wants to leave.
Post-Vietnam, and esp. the Reagan era, set up the American Myth that we never really lose. We’ve absorbed it so brutally that — as we’re seeing now — it’s part of the national narrative, part of how people on many sides of the fence think about the US.
I guess it was time to rip off that band-aid, to see the American (and UK!) press as what they are — a group eager for wars, and rumors of wars, both for personal and money-making reasons. It was depressing to read an NYTimes article that was supposed to be about alternatives for Biden, and actually find it full of criticisms, and really thin on actual alternatives.
But the article doesn’t need that. The people promoting this view, know that the American reader barely remembers how ugly pulling out of Iraq was — much less remembers the Soviet situation in Afghanistan. If they don’t talk about the treaty, and how it handcuffed American choices, then the audience won’t have context to critique these articles.
And the audience won’t consider the ~15 minutes of airtime Afghanistan got for years, before this pullout.
All that doesn’t matter, because all this media? Is just to re-enforce that America should be #1, and no President should ever allow us to feel bad, for even one minute.
…I can’t imagine how Jimmy Carter is feeling, right now.
WereBear
@raven: I don’t understand. It was supposed to be a Cat 4. This time, the levees held, etc.
montanareddog
@NotMax: Heh! Nosher Powell. Shame he didn’t knock Shane McGowan’s teeth out when he blatted him.
I was once taken to an evening card at the Wimbledon greyhound racing track and we went to the pub afterwards which turned out to be Nosher’s. He was propping up the bar on his own, pint in hand, flat cap on his head. This was some 40 years ago and I can still see him in my mind’s eye. A big, charismatic fellow.
NotMax
@Woodrow/asim
If it weren’t for Saint Ronnie we’d all be speaking Grenadan.
Matt McIrvin
@Jeffro: It worked during the post-2008 recession. During most economic recoveries, government spending goes up to take up slack in the economy. That time around, after the initial federal stimulus, Republican legislators and state governments actually slashed government spending on all levels, and it slowed down the recovery and politically hurt Democrats since by that point Obama was President.
But the reason it worked so well was probably that a substantial fraction, maybe a majority, of the US population had a backwards idea of the causal links–there was a very popular prior belief that when the economy is bad it’s because the government wasted your tax money. The idea that measures to prevent COVID actually cause COVID… well, some right-wing loons seem to believe something like that but it’s nowhere near a majority belief.
Jeffro
@germy: it’s a huge disadvantage for Democrats to have principles, morals, a sense of shame, policies that help people, etc. IF no other institution (coughTheMediacough) is going to call out Republicans’ lack of the same at every turn.
Here you go, media, here’s a free story-starter for every bit of news that comes down the pike from now until, well, eternity: “Republicans launched another round of bad-faith attacks and lies about _____ today…” Just to get those reports off on the right foot.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Kay: The whole “Goal posts are to always to be just out of reach and never achieved” is one of the latest bits bullshit out of the ruling class and a big part of people quitting their jobs right and left. There is a good chance that none of them are even conscious they are moving just changing the numbers.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@raven: Go read the NYT Pitchbot on Twitter. There is no difference between that headline what Doug and company are posting.
Matt McIrvin
@cmorenc: There is some kind of story here, about CNN deciding to go hard right (even by median big-mainstream-media standards), and I’d like to know what it is.
Matt McIrvin
@WereBear: It was a Cat 4. The wind damage was as great as predicted. But the big killer in hurricanes is flooding, and New Orleans benefited from the new flood control systems put in place after Katrina. Some surrounding towns were not so lucky.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Jeffro: I am beginning to suspect it’s less the media is pro-Republican and more the Media is Pro-bullshit, and since the Republicans are nothing but bullshit and gaslighting these days the Republicans are more effective with the media than the Democrats are.
germy
@Geminid:
He didn’t receive threats?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@ryk: hehehe I am going to try that on someone lol
germy
@WereBear:
You’re right. It was bad, but not as bad as some feared.
Woodrow/asim
CNN’s bones as a profit center were built on American War, from 1st Iraq war on. So, it’s not hard-right, so much as an editorial/business function to try to grab some more eyeballs from the thing that seems to always make them money. It’s as myopic as that, esp. given the shallowness of the criticisms being flung at the Biden Administration.
That, plus: it’s clear many reporters, for reasons I’ll spare too much additional speculation into, have a deep emotional reaction to the sense that America and its allies lost a war, and are leaving people to a hostile regime.
I think those are the core reasons, moreso than any “raw” political re-alignment of the news media in America.
Kay
There are other factors, ventilation, etc. so it’s hard to isolate masks but even if masks reduce transmission by 10-20-30 instead of 70% why wouldn’t they at least try?
It’s just bad faith all the way down with schools. They were screeching when the schools were closed and now they’re screeching when schools do any covid mitigation. They will accept nothing other than exactly what they want.
SiubhanDuinne
@Geminid:@germy:
There was a reason for the divorce:
Matt McIrvin
@Woodrow/asim: To some extent I’m seeing a kind of reversion to the pre-Trump media/politics world. There are stories that can be fit into templates familiar to old reporters: “Democrats are feckless weaklings”/”Republicans are tough daddies”, etc.
The remarkable thing to me is how seamlessly the people who were recently going on about “Donald the Dove, Hillary the Hawk” have readjusted.
p.a.
Well on the bright side (boy I feel uncomfortable brightsiding), the small uptick in crime got no OMGOMG traction in the poll. Assuming crime was included…
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@OzarkHillbilly: exactly. I feel for those Americans still there, but at least some chose to stay. I can not remember her name but Chris Cupmo was interviewing a woman during his “Americans Left Behind!!!” piece in the last few days and the woman said she was choosing to stay.
Kay
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Oh, they’re “conscious” all right. I’m an advocate. I do it for a living. They’re not giving you specific numbers because the specific numbers get in the way of their narrative, which is “Joe Biden abandoned Afghan allies”. It’s why you can’t pin them down on categories either. “Allies” are a specific category in the visa section of the law. It’s not just “people who helped us”. It’s a category with a number.
Kay
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
I’m pro refugee and pro immigration. If they think the “allies” category for Afghans should have been broader and bigger they can push for that to their heart’s content. A little late to be pushing for it, but whatever. But they know what it is. They know it’s not a moving target.
germy
@SiubhanDuinne:
Yes, and I’ll wager that if a Republican opponent of a Democratic candidate dropped out of a race because of death threats, it would be the lead story on every network. For weeks.
catclub
They are also doing this so that Trump’s disaster year of covid does not look as bad compared to 2021. Killing their own constituents to own the libs.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@OzarkHillbilly: is this kinkshaming or kinkelevating?
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: in 2024, el jefe will run for the gqp nomination touting himself as the one who will end the continued american forever war in afghanistan… & ohio dinergoers will agree, telling sulzberger advertiser writers it’s time to bring home their neighbors’s sons & daughters in kandahar
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@WereBear: i won’t be happy til every southern partisan is dragged out like jefferson davis
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@sherparick1: expect sulzberger advertiser stories like “how what imran khan learned from cricket will help pakistan address the taliban”
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@NotMax: joe biden is the bastardlovechild of leo varadkar & phil lynott
(yes, i know neither is muslin)
Mike in NC
Local rag features weekly op-ed by a far-right piece of shit named Jay Ambrose. He wanted to stay in Afghanistan forever to defeat the Taliban blah blah blah. I wrote to his AOL account to tell him to go fuck himself.
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@BC in Illinois: national-conservatism has found its wagner in josh hawley’s alleged homestate
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@germy: must we relive the tamale wars?
Ramalama
@OzarkHillbilly: We call on his other neighbors to fulfill their duties. Not the gas grill neighbors, but the ones over there using charcoal. The ones with the hedges.
WaterGirl
@Matt McIrvin: @WereBear:
Even so, I have to agree with WereBear that it wasn’t as bad as it could have been, as it was expected to be. That doesn’t mean that WereBear is saying that everything is peachy, or that it wasn’t a horrible storm.
But bodies aren’t floating in the streets, and people aren’t on their roofs, waiting and hoping for rescue. That is something to feel relieved about.
Geminid
@SiubhanDuinne: I’ll take my statement back, then. Thank you for the correction.
WaterGirl
@catclub:
Not quite. I fixed that for you.
Betty Cracker
I read an article this morning in WaPo (I think) about Biden’s private visit with the families of the servicemembers killed in Afghanistan. The father of Lance Corporal Schmitz (see comment by @BC in Illinois: at #54) was featured prominently, and IIRC, he used the word “botched” to describe the withdrawal more than once.
Chicken and egg question: did GOP Rep. Wagner (also referred to at #54) get it from the elder Schmitz, or did she get it from him? My guess is the latter; he probably doesn’t know her from Adam’s housecat, as my grandma used to say.
But as ugly and divisive as our national politics have always been during my lifetime, I don’t recall a widespread phenomenon where elected officials attempted to directly stir up resentment and hatred toward presidents from the opposite party at a time of grief. Individual people, yes. A common response from elected officials at every level, no.
Lots of family members quoted in the WaPo piece were critical of Biden, which is certainly understandable — they’ve lost a family member, and they’re angry. Some are even unhinged, which I can also understand. One family member at the “dignified transfer” ceremony allegedly screamed “You’ll burn in hell!” at Biden. That person didn’t meet with him privately.
Several who did meet with POTUS and FLOTUS complained about Biden talking about his late son. That’s also understandable IMO — they’re focused on their lost loved one, and rather than seeing references to the younger Biden as an attempt to connect over shared losses, they saw it as taking the focus off their loved one. I get it, even if I believe they’re taking it the wrong way.
But as I read the article, it occurred to me that our unbridgeable political divides, which now make fistfights at schoolboard meetings commonplace, has infected every civic ritual. All of them.
germy
This is a good documentary. (Sidney Powell walks out of her interview twice because she doesn’t like the questions):
Geminid
@germy: Well, it would be kind of a “Man bites Dog” story.
OzarkHillbilly
@WereBear: It was a Cat 4 hurricane, but the storm surge was less and the levees had all been upgraded to the tune of $1 billion (the number I heard this am)
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
People are commiting suicide to own the libs. Civic rituals aren’t really a safe space.
Kathleen
@germy: I’m wondering if some of the Mainslime Media’s collective tantrum is a ploy to divert attention from the hearings. Not all of course. They need to bring down the uppity old white guy who had the temerity to choose Black woman for running mate. In my 60 years of following politics I’ve not seen on national level such nasty, vicious and personal attacks based on lies as I have the last 2 weeks. These people are evil. Just evil. And I’m talking about the press. They want a fascist in chief so badly.
Kathleen
@Betty: They won’t stop until they think they’ve brought him down.
Kathleen
Kathleen
@Woodrow/asim: I don’t think any of these reporters have the emotional intelligence or moral center to be concerned about anyone left there.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Kay: I was thinking “conscious” in terms of a reflex reaction at this point. I had the odd experience of deal with two retired Blob members while GMing some on line role playing game, of all things, and both of them had weasel their way into the game admin before me, had created dozens of unfixable problems and then started with the screaming like Blob is with Afghanistan when I had to fix the damage they did by brute force. They just couldn’t stop it to the point that every human interaction was like this.
catclub
@OzarkHillbilly:
$1B? ha!
MontyTheClipArtMongoose
@Betty Cracker: at least biden had a son who served
though if he didn’t, they would be bitchingabouthim being out touch
Villago Delenda Est
Meanwhile, 90 sacks of MAGAt shit retired flag officers are demanding that the SECDEF and Chairman of the JCS resign over this “debacle.”
They can all fuck off.