Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

We still have time to mess this up!

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

If you’re pissed about Biden’s speech, he was talking about you.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

T R E 4 5 O N

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Let there be snark.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Oath Keepers Verdict

Oath Keepers Verdict

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Stewart Rhodes and Kelly Meggs found GUILTY of seditious conspiracy.

Looks like the others in this particular trial are NOT GUILTY of seditious conspiracy.

Putting this up so the Nancy SMASH post can stay about Nancy SMASH.

Kyle Cheney (Politico)

SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY

Rhodes: Guilty MEGGS: Guilty HARRELSON: Not guilty WATKINS: Not guilty CALDWELL: Not guilty

CONSPIRACY TO OBSTRUCT

RHODES: Not guilty MEGGS: Guilty WATKINS: Guilty HARRELSON CALDWELL: Not guilty

OBSTRUCTION

Rhodes: Guilty Meggs: Guilty Watkins: Guilty Harrelson: Guilty Caldwell: Guilty

All of the defendants but Watkins were also convicted of tampering with evidence. Meggs, Harrelson and Watkins were also convicted of a conspiracy to prevent members of Congress to discharge their duties. The same three defendants were all acquitted of property destruction at the Capitol.”

I am told that the sentencing range is similar for the seditious conspiracy and conspiracy to obstruct.

Anyway, the jury really seemed to differentiate between the counts and the defendants, so this seems like a very solid verdict.

Article on ABC or NBC, whichever one has the Peacock.

WASHINGTON — A federal jury in Washington on Tuesday found Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes and Kelly Meggs, another member of the far-right organization, guilty of seditious conspiracy in connection with the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol, a victory for the government in a case that involved a rarely-used Civil War era statute.

Three other members of the group who were on trial alongside Rhodes and Meggs — Jessica Watkins, Kenneth Harrelson and Thomas Caldwell — were found not guilty on the seditious conspiracy charge. All five defendants were found guilty of obstruction of an official proceeding and aiding and abetting for their actions on Jan. 6.

Watkins was also found guilty on a count of civil disorder and aiding and abetting because, as she admitted on the stand, she helped push against officers inside the Capitol. Caldwell, who was also found guilty of tampering with documents or proceedings and aiding and abetting, was the only one of the five who was not detained while awaiting trial.

The seditious conspiracy case is the most serious to grow out of the Justice Department’s sprawling investigation into the U.S. Capitol attack. The two seditious conspiracy verdicts were wins for the department, which has brought forward the relatively rare charges against a number of Oath Keepers as well as members of the far-right Proud Boys.

The not guilty verdicts for three of the defendants could be seen as a sign that jurors did not think the Justice Department proved that Harrelson, Watkins, and Caldwell had planned ahead of time to storm the Capitol. Some of the most violent rhetoric presented by the government during the nearly two-month trial came from the two defendants who were found guilty of seditious conspiracy: Rhodes and Meggs. In evidence presented by the government, both men showed particular disdain for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and talked about their desire to do her violence.

 

Washington Post gift article.

Reader Interactions

96Comments

  2. 2.

    Barbara

    Verdict is pretty nuanced, but everyone was found guilty of at least one count.  Copied and pasted from Kyle Cheney (Politico):

    Seditious conspiracy

    Rhodes: Guilty MEGGS: Guilty HARRELSON: Not guilty WATKINS: Not guilty CALDWELL: Not guilty

    CONSPIRACY TO OBSTRUCT: RHODES: Not guilty MEGGS: Guilty WATKINS: Guilty HARRELSON CALDWELL: Not guilty

    OBSTRUCTION Rhodes: Guilty Meggs: Guilty Watkins: Guilty Harrelson: Guilty Caldwell: Guilty

    Per Cheney’s article, “All of the defendants but Watkins were also convicted of tampering with evidence. Meggs, Harrelson and Watkins were also convicted of a conspiracy to prevent members of Congress to discharge their duties. The same three defendants were all acquitted of property destruction at the Capitol.”

    I am told that the sentencing range is similar for the seditious conspiracy and conspiracy to obstruct.

    Anyway, the jury really seemed to differentiate between the counts and the defendants, so this seems like a very solid verdict.

  5. 5.

    Marmot

    Stewart Rhodes and Kelly Meggs found GUILTY of seditious conspiracy.

    Yes. Effing yes.

    Listening to Maddox’s Ultra, I’m freaking amazed prosecutors weren’t able to get a conviction of those Christian Front fascists.

    I mean, even today you’d probably get more jail time for dealing weed in some states, so we’re not in a just utopia quite yet.

  6. 6.

    MisterDancer

    I’m not one for hating on our foes, even the ones who’d see my Black ass shot in the street if they could get away with it. Not turning any of my cheeks, just not eager to carry the weight of hate too far in my heart or mind.

    So I’ll just say that they got a lot more Justice, than they planned to deliver to any of their targets. And I expect their connections will help topple a lot more toxic MFers, including some “lawmakers” right now.

    Related, and something I’m chewing thru:  A Peek Inside the FBI’s Unprecedented January 6 Geofence Dragnet

  8. 8.

    WaterGirl

    I hope some of our attorneys weigh in on this, but it seems to me that GUILTY of seditious conspiracy  would be necessary (but not sufficient) if the DOJ wants to pursue people further up the food chain.

  9. 9.

    UncleEbeneezer

    I still think 1/6 charges for Trump will be tough (based on everything I’ve heard from legal experts) but Rhodes/OK’s have direct ties to Stone, Jones, Flynn, and Ronnie Jackson.  This could get very interesting.

  10. 10.

    Layer8Problem

    Looks like all of my calling them “Oaf Keepers” to my partner has paid dividends.

    And this was supposed to be a tough charge to prosecute, so thanks to the prosecutors for the hard work it took to make it stick.

  11. 11.

    Barbara

    @UncleEbeneezer: He testified that it wasn’t part of any mission for his fellow OKs to breach the Capitol.  While people thought that was equivalent to throwing them under the bus, in reality, it was probably an effort to show that there was no conspiracy among them in the first place.

    I probably would have found anyone who was part of the effort to bring and park weapons at the Comfort Inn in Arlington  guilty of seditious conspiracy.  Clearly, there was advance planning, but the issue was the purpose of that planning, and Rhodes and Meggs made the loudest and clearest statements of intent.

  14. 14.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Alison Rose:

    Also, Kelly Meggs sounds like the name Megyn Kelly would use on a dating app if she was trying to lay low.

    LOL!  Fuck her too!  I still can’t believe CBS paid her 60 million to spew her bullshit on their network, and then went “Oh shit!” and paid out her contract for her to fuck off.

    ETA: Oops, it was NBC that paid her 69 million, and then discovered she was toxic trash.

  17. 17.

    MisterDancer

    @UncleEbeneezer: Marcy’s gone Protected on her Tweets, and she’s not reposted this to her new Mastodon account (@[email protected]). So I’m challenged to reply to what she might mean, in that regard — and, of course, I Am Not A Lawyer.

    But I will say I posted it as much because it shows how much work Law Enforcement had to do to leverage geofencing and turn it into actionable information in these cases — and yes, that differs, in my evaluation, from a lot of the local/state usage that I think is highly problematic.

    I’ve talked before, here, in comments on how the FBI is likely way overworked in tracking down Jan6 asshattery, and that this impacts strongly how fast we see any sort of Justice. My link was in that spirit, as much as any.

  20. 20.

    mrmoshpotato

    @WaterGirl:

    I hope some of our attorneys weigh in on this

    Balloon Juice has attorneys?!  I’m as surprised as Svengoolie is about his own store.

  21. 21.

    feebog

    The right wing take on Twitter is that no way these poor defendants could get a fair trial in Washington D.C.  In other words too many black people in the jury pool.  As observed in comments above, fuck ‘‘em all.  I can only hope they all receive long sentences in federal prison.

  26. 26.

    geg6

    Oath Keepers, my ass.  Oath Betrayers.  Country Betrayers.  Constitution Betrayers.  May they rot in prison.

  33. 33.

    Steeplejack

    @MisterDancer:

    She’s disabled that function due to massive RW reporting efforts to get her banned. Twitter is just banning now on number of reports because the humans responsible for overseeing it have either been fired or quit.

    — Bill McCarty (@billyboy14) November 29, 2022

  36. 36.

    cain

    So House is voting to stop the rail strike. I think siding with railroad companies (who are assholes in every sense) is bullshit. We’re talking about sick leave here not even vacation. Who the hell doesn’t give sick leave? I know there are a lot of downtime for these folks between one gig and another – but sick leave especially during an endemic needs to be given.

    I’m trying to understand the underlying mechanics of why sick leave is a bridge too far for these people?

  42. 42.

    sab

    @apocalipstick: Any knowledgeable lawyers. I am a failed/recovered lawyer. Went to law school. Passed a bar with flying colors.. Practiced briefly ( four years) . Hated it so moved on to something else I liked and was good at. I admire lawyers, I stopped at law because I wasn’t good at what they do.

    In my day (late seventies) Yale was pass/ fail, so grades didn’t matter. How long was that in effect? Not good for a prestigious school.

  43. 43.

    Geminid

    @Omnes Omnibus: So was Bill. They might have overlapped with Clarence Thomas.

    But, “every group has its good and bad people.” I first heard this about convicts, from a friend who’d spent three years in the Virginia state penal system. This was a view I had not taken before but I’ve remembered ever since.

  44. 44.

    Barbara

    @feebog: ​If that were true they all would have been convicted on all charges. Jury definitely weighed evidence for each count and each individual.

  45. 45.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Not a “decidedly mixed result” for DOJ. After analyzing the case on each count separately against each def, the jury convicted ALL defs of extremely serious charges that carry substantial penalties. These verdicts are a huge victory for DOJ and for justice in the United States.

  49. 49.

    sab

    @sab: If grades don’ t matter you HAVE to make law review. That seems nuts. Or you have to sleep with Amy Chao’s spouse. Also nuts.

  51. 51.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @cain:

    A rail strike would be catastrophe for the economy and everyone. It’s possible the administration could work something out between the rail companies and the union again, possibly?

  52. 52.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Mike in NC:

    Here’s hoping Elmer and company enjoy the Big House. 

    Oh no.  No.  No.  No.  These traitorous shitstains are not being imprisoned at Michigan Stadium.

  55. 55.

    Barbara

    @WaterGirl: No, not necessarily.  You cannot rule out the existence of other or even overlapping conspiracies, or other evidence that does not include these particular defendants.  If the government plans to rely on the same kind of evidence then a finding of not guilty might call the prosecution’s theory of the case in question.

    I can’t remember which, but one or more of the defendants kept trying to make use of the FBI’s failure to charge them or someone else as evidence of something.  I know that sounds pretty vague, but a lot of the defense case was like that — we didn’t do that or the other, which doesn’t actually count as evidence of not doing this thing they were actually accused of.
    Anyway, a prior verdict one way or the other as to another defendant isn’t evidence that can be used in subsequent proceedings, though I am sure the next round of lawyers for the upcoming trials will do their best.​

  61. 61.

    Kay

    Info on what’s happening to pregnant women in Texas is finally coming out:

    Usually, articles in medical journals are about science; they bring data to their readers, who can use them to provide evidence-based care to their patients. But sometimes, evidence is an expression of grief or even rage. A recent journal article, “Maternal Morbidity and Fetal Outcomes Among Pregnant Women at 22 Weeks’ Gestation or Less with Complications in 2 Texas Hospitals After Legislation on Abortion,” contains such evidence. To understand this article, you need to know that any number of complications can threaten a pregnancy, such as rupture of the bag of water around the baby, preterm labor, or heavy bleeding. When those complications arise before 22 weeks of gestation— before the age of viability when a fetus can live outside of a uterus—the standard of medical care is to offer a patient termination of pregnancy as an option. Women who continue pregnancy in these situations take on significant risks to their own health, and because of the early gestation, the chance for a healthy baby is very, very low.

    The people who suffer most because of limitations in good obstetric care in these states are, of course, the patients. The paper was written by doctors who are no longer allowed to provide the care they trained for years to provide. And in that setting, they wrote this paper to document the suffering and danger they see, which they could have offered choices to help prevent. This is a medical publication of data about that compromised medical care. It is a paper full of evidence. It is also a paper full of the rage and grief of being forced to offer substandard medical care to patients who are suffering. It won’t be the last

    Just shocking to me that this isn’t front page news, every day. They are torturing these women due to these laws.
    Women have to get out of these states if they are pregnant. They are getting substandard medical care.

  63. 63.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    A rail strike would be catastrophe for the economy and everyone.

    Labor tactics 101: You threaten to strike (and strike if needed) when you have the maximum leverage, not when you’ve got a weak hand.

    Considerably the abusive conditions railroad workers work under, I’m on their side.

  65. 65.

    cain

    @Sister Golden Bear:

    Considerably the abusive conditions railroad workers work under, I’m on their side.

    As am I. I’m sure there has been conversations between Democrats and the railroad union. It’s an easy perception win because everyone has sick leave – saying you don’t get sick leave? I don’t think anybody wouldn’t be sympathetic with that.

  66. 66.

    trollhattan

    @Kay: Right? It’s an ongoing outrage.

    After kids in cages, I have no faith in the capacity for “average folk” to become enraged at anything.

  67. 67.

    cain

    @Kay: I would also add – they’ll likely need to close their pregnancy/birth wards at this rate. That should provoke a good reaction from the GOP. Imagine not being able to have a birth in the state because of legal issues.

  68. 68.

    cain

    @trollhattan: I disagree – those kids in cages are still distant and far away. This will intrude on their reality because it will be people they know and care about – young women or even older women who had the temerity to get pregnant.

    It will break marriages, create hardships and it’ll all be there front and center on Facebook.

  69. 69.

    Argiope

    @cain: ​
      I think that it may take some time before everyone knows someone personally who has been affected. Most pregnancies are healthy; these situations are, per capita, unusual. And I think it’s the Leopards Eating People’s Faces situation–denial reigns supreme until it’s one’s own face (or one’s sister/wife/daughter’s) that is getting eaten. I also think there’s a lot of denial going on among the RWNJ population where they think these stories are fake or overblown. My stepmom couldn’t wrap her head around doctors’ hands being tied by these laws. I’m in this area of healthcare, to be clear, and she still couldn’t do it even when I clearly stated these kinds of stories and consequences are real.

  72. 72.

    TS

    @Steeplejack:

    Twitter is just banning now on number of reports

    Someone should explain that to the Washington Post

    High-profile Republican members of Congress gained tens of thousands of Twitter followers in the first few weeks of Elon Musk’s reign over the social media network, while their Democratic counterparts experienced a decline, according to an analysis by The Washington Post.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/11/27/musk-followers-bernie-cruz/

    the pattern suggests that tens of thousands of liberals may be leaving the site while conservatives are joining or becoming more active, shifting the demographics of the site under Musk’s ownership.

  73. 73.

    Ruckus

    @cain:

    I don’t know how much sick leave they already have but I’d bet it is, in the overall scope of US employment, a nice chunk. They are unionized and it is a decent paying, physical job.

  74. 74.

    NutmegAgain

    @Gin & Tonic: Well, you know what they say about Yale men… Just like the fence around the green, they’re nice to look at, and easy to see through.

    OK, so Elmer Fudd, er, Rhodes is anything but nice to look at, or even through. He wears his evil nasty on the outside as well as the inside.

  75. 75.

    Jeffro

    Can’t have convictions for seditious conspiracy without…a seditious conspiracy!  =)

    KEEP PUSHING, DOJ!

  76. 76.

    Jeffro

    @geg6:Oath Betrayers.  Country Betrayers.  Constitution Betrayers.  May they rot in prison.

    Seconded!

    Any healthy democracy, going forward, is going to need to make sharp examples out of those who would overthrow it.  We’ve been far too good to people who abuse democracy’s freedom’s for far too long.

    Into the clink with you, Oafs!  We’ll catch up with you in 2050 or thereabouts…

  78. 78.

    Seefleur

    @Ruckus: My brother is an engineer – he has NO sick leave. And he’s on-call for ridiculous amounts of time. If he doesn’t answer, he has only two strikes and then he’s fired. And he’s a union rep.

  79. 79.

    jonas

    So what’s the over/under on the next GOP presidential nominee — Trump, DeSantis, or whoever — making pardoning these creeps a campaign platform? You know that’s where this is all headed.

  83. 83.

    Seefleur

    He drives me crazy because he refuses to vote. As a Marine, (he was discharged many years ago) he has no faith in his vote counting. I want to kick his ass, but as a Marine, I don’t dare… sigh. What to do with a recalcitrant asshole brother??

  84. 84.

    Bill Arnold

    For Kay, who suggested exactly this a while back:
    The NYC Media Might Have Cost Democrats the House (Eric Levitz, 2022/11/29)

    Nevertheless, the intensity of voters’ concerns about public safety cannot be explained by objective conditions alone. In a February poll from Quinnipiac University, 50 percent of New Yorkers said that crime was a “very serious” problem. In 1999, when Quinnipiac first asked that question, New York’s homicide rate was 50 percent higher than it is today, and incidents of burglary, aggravated assault, and car theft were all much more prevalent — yet only 35 percent of respondents deemed violent crime a major concern at that time.

  88. 88.

    cain

    @Argiope: I’m not so sure about that – youre thinking of just pregnancies but there are a lot of other situations where you can land in trouble besides just a miscarriage. Also I think any complications leads to going to a lawyer – that’s going to delay things too.

    I think the scope is larger than one thinks it is.

  90. 90.

    cain

    @Ruckus: ​

    I was under the impression that they have no sick leave and this was all about getting sick leave.
    https://news.yahoo.com/sick-leave-policies-more-attention-224603979.html

    It seems that railroad folks don’t get any sick leave – they do have a lot of idle time between gigs as I understand it. One of the Balloon-Juice people is a retired engineer who occasionally posts here and I think he was the one who told us about how the shifts work.

    ETA #90! I’m on fire and before that #88 – the year daddy bush became a grown up!

  91. 91.

    cain

    @Seefleur: Just show how the black community si winning it for everyone. They believe their vote counts and so do teh Gen Zs and their influence is already coming to fruition.

  92. 92.

    LiminalOwl

    @cain:  “Who the hell doesn’t give sick leave?”

    The TSA, for one. (At least, that was true some years ago, when a family member was employed there; it’s possible this has changed.)  Well, officially they had sick leave, but my family member was repeatedly refused due to “operational necessity.”  When he became ill enough (though without a diagnosis yet) that he really couldn’t work some days, he took it anyway—and received significant penalties.

    And then the cancer was diagnosed, and he went on long-term disability. And told me he felt lucky compared to the co-worker who had similarly been refused sick leave, and who eventually dropped dead, actually at work if I remember correctly.

    (This has, I think, changed, but at that time the TSA was legally [!] prohibited from unionizing, under the PATRIOT Act, which created the agency.)

  93. 93.

    LiminalOwl

    @Kay: omfg. Thank you for sharing that.

    And how many women of reproductive age can’t afford to move out of Texas? Or are trapped by family reasons (spouse’s employment, caring for aging parents, etc.)?

  94. 94.

    Kay

    @Bill Arnold:

    Well, we had a comparison we could use – cities in Michigan and Pennsylvania and Minnesota where there was a larger increase in crime but NO NY media-induced crime panic among voters.

    Only in the NY media market did the crime panic take hold with voters.

    Whether people are “anxious” or not is the wrong measure. People can truly be anxious based on bad information. If tv news tells me my tires have been recalled for blowouts and they have not been recalled but I believe they have I am truly anxious, but the tires are still safe.

  96. 96.

    Chris T.

    @Delk: Well let’s see:

    Ail, Bail, C … Kale, Dale, E…, Fail, Gail, Hail, I…, Kale (had that already), L…, Mail, Nail, O…, Pail, Quail, Rail, Sail, Tail, U…, Vale (or Vail), Wail, Y…, Zale(‘s?). That must be the lot there. Not sure what you were going for.

    //s (or //j ?)

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