Last August, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis stood in front of his favorite prop, a line of scowling law enforcement officers, and overturned the will of the voters in Hillsborough County, Florida (Tampa and environs) by suspending their twice-elected state attorney, Andrew Warren.
It was a political stunt to punish Warren, who had run afoul of the governor’s “anti-woke” agenda by joining other state attorneys in signing a letter opposing the politicized prosecution of reproductive and transgender healthcare providers. DeSantis appointed a Republican hack, Susan Lopez, to replace Warren.
Warren sued. Today, U.S. District Judge Robert Hinkle ruled that DeSantis violated Warren’s First Amendment rights and Florida’s constitution when he suspended Warren. But, since it’s a state matter, the judge says he lacks the standing to remedy the situation by ordering DeSantis to restore Warren to his elected position. From the Tampa Bay Times:
U.S. District Judge Robert L. Hinkle found that DeSantis suspended Warren based on the allegation that the state attorney had blanket policies not to prosecute certain kinds of cases.
”The allegation was false,” Hinkle wrote in a ruling issued Friday morning. “Mr. Warren’s well-established policy, followed in every case by every prosecutor in the office, was to exercise prosecutorial discretion at every stage of every case. Any reasonable investigation would have confirmed this.”…
In his ruling Friday, the judge identified several factors he concluded were the governor’s motivation for the suspension. They included Warren’s pursuit of criminal justice reforms, his signing of the abortion pledge, his affiliation with the Democratic Party and reputed connection with liberal billionaire George Soros, and the political benefit the suspension would bring the governor…
The judge cited the 11th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in concluding that he could not grant Warren’s request for reinstatement. The amendment prohibits federal courts from hearing certain lawsuits against states.
But the judge did suggest one remedy:
“If the facts matter, the governor can simply rescind the suspension,” Hinkle wrote. “If he does not do so, it will be doubly clear that the alleged non-prosecution policies were not the real motivation for the suspension.”
This is Florida, so the facts don’t matter. I’m not sure where Warren goes from here, but he’s expected to make a statement later today, so perhaps we’ll find out. The DeSantis sycophant appointed to replace Warren declined to comment, saying she is focused on “the work,” which is kissing the governor’s ass.
Nothing from the governor so far either, but when he or someone who speaks on his behalf shows up, the remarks will consist of a noun, a verb and WOKE. I rate the chances that DeSantis will do the right thing and restore the state attorney Hillsborough voters elected at approximately 0%.
Open thread.
Dangerman
They are that high
ETA: Can’t remove Santos (the voters have spoken!) but …
Wag
Judge smacks down DeSantis,
sort of…as much as he is legally permitted to.Fixed
The removal of this prosecutor was a travesty, and its too bad that there are no federal remedies available.
sdhays
It’s rather scary that the governor can summarily remove a duly elected state prosecutor on a whim with no check on that power. It makes those elections completely irrelevant.
Joe Falco
@sdhays:
Just as the GOP intends.
delphinium
Betty-I’m not familiar with state law there. Is there any recourse at all for the voters in that county? Seems like a huge conflict of interest/abuse of power that the governor can suspend the attorney on dubious reasons and then slide his toady into that role instead of calling for a new election.
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
@sdhays: “forget it, Jake, it’s DeSantosland”
waspuppet
@Dangerman: While we’re at it, sheriffs all over the country have “blanket policies” not to enforce gun laws, but somehow I think Republicans are OK with that.
Burnspbesq
Warren needs to run again, and win back the job. That’s the ultimate middle finger to DeSantis.
SpaceUnit
Well there’s the Florida State Supreme Court, but I’m guessing those justices are a bunch of right-wing wackos since they’re all appointed by the governor.
New Deal democrat
If the Federal judge found facts resulting in a ruling of law that DeSantis violated the Florida Constitution, then the findings of fact are probably binding on any Florida State Court, and the finding of law may also be binding on any Florida Court unless its Supreme Court declares the Florida law to the contrary.
In other words, Warren may be able to take this into a Florida State Court and very quickly get an order of reinstatement from that Court.
Paul in KY
I would be gobsmacked if he did. If he does, and that would flabbergast me, think it would mean that him/wife have digested some of the criticisms of his assholeishness and have decided they better dial it back to 10 from 11.
Would bet serious money that it will not happen, though.
cain
@waspuppet:
I don’t know about that – I’m sure if you have the right skin color that is true.
UncleEbeneezer
DeSantis will also be in court soon (where he will likely lose) for his immigration stunt.
Mike in NC
Looks like DeSantis believes he can run for president in 2024 on his “don’t say gay” culture war nonsense. Don’t think it will gain a whole lot of traction.
Betty Cracker
@UncleEbeneezer: Local dailies have done a great job of tallying up the court costs Florida taxpayers are on the hook for thanks to DeSantis’s blatantly unconstitutional stunts. Tens of millions of dollars are being funneled to right-wing law firms where DeSantis’s cronies are partners to defend these indefensible laws and actions. You’d think the so-called fiscally conservative Republicans would balk at that, but they’re just in it for the hate boners.
cain
@Mike in NC: I think this whole anti-trans stuff also is going to turn horrific enough that a lot of people are going to get disgusted. Plus, it just underscores the tyranny of govt – some of those laws seem very anti-1st amendment.
Laws against pronouns? Cripes.
Of course, with this SCOTUS who knows…
Cameron
@UncleEbeneezer: I can think of few things more satisfying at the moment than him getting popped for human trafficking.
Matt McIrvin
@Mike in NC: He’s thinking, it got Bush reelected in 2004, and trans people today are the gay people of 2004.
Bush was still running on some 9/11 fumes though.
The Moar You Know
Since the judge cannot restore him to his duly elected position, and DeSantis won’t, and the Florida Supreme Court has no interest in doing anything, looks to me like DeSantis won big time here; he not only gets rid of this guy, he can fire people from elected positions anytime he wants, and gets a “bad boy” from the judge and that’s it.
This is frankly a horrific decision.
Cameron
@Betty Cracker: Have you seen any of the stuff about his military service? Guy was a JAG in….Guantanamo (I think later in Fallujah, too). I’m sure he was there to make sure prisoners weren’t mistreated.
West of the Rockies
@Betty Cracker:
Hate Boners…
That’s what I signed up for, Ms. Cracker! Fabulous word-smithing right there.
gene108
I thought federal courts could overrule state courts or state laws on most matters.
I don’t understand why this case is different.
MisterDancer
As opposed to the one where the Federal judge does put him back, and then the corrupt SCOTUS re-removes him, throwing more power to DeSantis along the way with some truly horrific decision?
There was an effort to remediate this. Between voter suppression and shitty media and decades of propaganda, it wasn’t taken.
Betty Cracker
@The Moar You Know: I’m not a lawyer, but according to people who are, the judge didn’t have the power to reinstate Mr. Warren. But yeah, technically, it’s a “win” for DeSantis, and it sucks. Since we haven’t had a Democrat elected as governor in this century, the state courts are stocked with right wing hacks, so maybe there is no recourse.
This is an example of how corrupt actions can compromise a democracy to the point where the rule of law means nothing. From what I’ve read, Orbán in Hungary accomplished something similar — he used elected office to co-opt agencies and systems to the point where now democracy is a sham.
There’s a lesson for other democracies in both places. It requires voter apathy/fuckery to gain a toe-hold, but once that happens, a “soft” autocrat can smother democracy.
MisterDancer
If that were true, Congress wouldn’t have had to use Highway dollars as a lever to get states to implement 55 MPH as the speed limit.
I’m no lawyer, but there have always been limits on how much the Federal government can intercede in state matters. In this case, just, again, as a layperson, I can’t see where any of the usual situations that allow for Federal intervention, like a firing for racial or gender discrimination, is in place in this situation.
Moreover — the current SCOTUS has made horrifically clear they think a state gov’t can basically act politically in tipping the scales, and all they have to do is ignore all the many signs of the racial bias at the heart of the actions. If the current SCOTUS majority won’t intervene for the Voting Rights Act — a whole-assed law of the land — why the heck does anyone here think they’d even deign to sniff at stopping this case?
I’m very glad we got this ruling. But the law has limits, and overcoming those limits is frankly what the shitheads on the other side do on the regular, and get away with too often because they planned to bend the court system to support it, as well as spending millions on lawyers who figure out how to give a middle finger to the rules. We have not.
eclare
@MisterDancer: Feds also used highway dollars to force states to raise the drinking age to 21. IIRC, Louisiana was the last holdout. I turned eighteen while this was playing out, so I had a vested interest.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: That is also what Benjamin Netanyahu is trying to do in Israel. He’s stacking important ministries with ruthless loyalists, and his 64-56 Knesset majority plans to shove through legislation that will allow the Knesset to overrule Supreme Court decisions.
There will be very large demonstrations over this by the opposition tomorrow, and probably every Saturday from here on. The new police minister, the disgusting Itamar Ben-Gvir, is looking at ways to curtail if not suppress them. Ben-Gvir makes Netanyahu look like Mr. Rodgers.
UncleEbeneezer
cain
@Betty Cracker:
Of course, if by some luck we do get governorship – we can do the same thing. Force the Florida Supreme Court to say that this is legal and within the powers of the governor to remove elected officials at will and replace with his own party members.
I want the Florida SCOTUS to say it in writing that it’s ok. Make them own that decision.
At some point, we are going to get power – nothing stays the same and we’ll just do our own clean up.
cain
@eclare: I remember that! That happened when I was 16. :P
Martin
Drove up to the Bay Area to see my son. California after the rains always looks completely different – everything is green seemingly overnight. Fields that were scrub and tumbleweeds had sheep (so many baby sheep!) and cows grazing. No idea where they come from – the barns must be on the other side of the hills. The Salinas valley was right around freezing, icy fog hanging over the valley. Evidence of storm damage all over, but nothing that devastating. Caltrans was out in force – working on clearing bridges, landslides (one big one, *lots* of tiny ones). Some power crews out fixing lines. Two power lines we saw weren’t down, but had multiple poles not exactly pointing as up as you’d want them to be. A lot of broken and downed trees in piles to be hauled away. Ruts in hillsides from the rain pretty widespread. Evidence of road flooding, but generally all cleaned up.
We drive up pretty early, so usually the farm workers are out in force. Not today though. Hardly any were out. A few hillside farms were tilling. Seems like quite a few farmers didn’t plant into the storms so they had some erosion on bare fields. Most of the farms we passed had standing water in the furrows, and a few still had significant standing water, but there wasn’t really evidence of significant crop damage. Nobody is going out there to weed that field – you’d just destroy it. One group of workers was out there harvesting greens and it must have been fucking miserable. They were in at least 4″ of water and it was 33 degrees out. Think of them if you eat a salad in the next week. But lots of tractors still sitting in 2′ of water because you park the tractors in the places where runoff doesn’t allow crops to grow. There was a very distinctive transition point from the clean, utterly useless socal pickup trucks to the valley farm pickup trucks so caked in mud you can’t tell what color they are from the bottom ⅔ of the vehicle.
But virtually all of the roads are open. A few big slides will take some time to clear. Lots of widespread impact, but the areas that were really devastated are pretty small and by all indications the county and state is doing a good job with recovery.
Forecast is 2 weeks or so of clear weather and then possibly a return to weather, but colder, so probably not nearly as intense and probably bring more snow to lower elevations. The atmospheric rivers tend to be very warm, so snow elevations tend to be pretty high.
CarolPW
The county voters should recall Lopez, and keep recalling DeSantis appointees until the next election.
Martin
@gene108:
On matters that are of federal interest. How a state organizes itself falls under state sovereignty and is not of federal interest, so they get no say *unless* it crosses a federal line – is a civil rights violation, etc. It’s why ‘wire fraud’ and ‘interstate transport’ is such a big hook in crimes – those are the things that allow the feds to take an interest, otherwise it’s just a state crime and they have no say in the matter. One reason why a lot of conservatives dislike legislation like hate crimes, or equal rights act, etc. is that it makes things like this a LOT easier to federalize. Do that enough, and why even bother having state sovereignty be a thing.
trollhattan
What do you reckon happens if you appoint a petroleum industry engineer to oversee state drilling permits? If you guessed “moar permits!” go to the head of the class.
I cannot wait to see how the forthcoming “Lemme get at moar dat ahl” Proposition will be titled, and the six-month ad bombardment. {scary music} Nancy Pelosi and the Sacramento Democrats do not want you to drive to the store. Stop the Democrat road grab on behalf of Big Bicycle. Vote yes on Proposition 666. Release our state’s precious oil.”
cain
I just wanted to post this lovely cat pic of a Steve-like cat with a stunning background:
https://toot.community/@angst_ridden/109723368235665278
This could have been you Steve!
trollhattan
@Martin: Love Salinas Valley in winter–so green. Guessing a lot of fields are too muddy to bring equipment on ATM. I notice the usual seasonal Watsonville strawberries and Delta asparagus aren’t in stores lately.
It’s a weird thing after so very many dry years.
eclare
@cain: Gorgeous…kitty and scenery!
ian
IANAL, so perhaps one of our resident lawyers could chime in. 11th Amendment
What does this have to do with the Warren/DeSantis given they are both from the same state?
Baud
OT: Apparently the justices were interviewed for the Dobbs leak, but they were asked to sign sworn affidavits like the staff (spit!) we’re.
J.
I’m hoping Andrew Warren runs for governor next election — or Congress — and wins.
Old School
@Baud:
To clarify:
lowtechcyclist
@ian:
Thank you, I was wondering the same thing.
Also:
@Martin:
Well, the First Amendment sure as shootin’ is a matter of Federal interest. And if a state can violate someone’s First Amendment rights without any consequence, then the First Amendment is just a pretty piece of paper.
Given that the judge has ruled that a specific action, suspending Warren from his position, violated Warren’s First Amendment rights, ISTM that one restores those rights by reinstating him.
I know, IANAL, but to me this makes zero sense.
ETA: I assume Warren can appeal the part of the judge’s decision that says he can’t order a remedy.
Roger Moore
@trollhattan:
I don’t necessarily expect the oil companies to spend big on their initiative. Yes, they’ll try to get it passed, but they aren’t going to throw bad money after good if it’s polling badly, as I expect it to do. They don’t have to do that to make putting it on the ballot an efficient way of spending their money, since just qualifying the referendum is enough to prevent the law from going into effect until the election. That means they get an extra ~2 years to ask for more drilling permits, even if the referendum goes down in flames.
It’s the same thing with the tobacco companies and their referendum on flavored tobacco. They probably knew they were going to lose, but the profits from an extra 2 years or so of sales was more than enough to pay for putting the referendum on the ballot. I don’t know about the fast food companies’ chances of winning their referendum, but it probably pays for itself on the same basis.
JPL
@Baud: So they called Ginny and said btw did you do the leaking and she said of course not.
lowtechcyclist
@New Deal democrat:
Once again, IANAL, but I’m pretty positive that a state’s constitution and laws are outside of a Federal judge’s jurisdiction, and ruling on whether someone has violated same exceeds the judge’s authority. As others have said, there has to be a specifically Federal angle.
ETA: As I recall, the Supreme Court hung its intervention in the 2000 election on some really specious Fourteenth Amendment justification.
Martin
@Old School: Doesn’t matter. Would have been about as valuable as the sworn affidavits they gave the Senate that they consider Roe to be settled law.
Also, I like beer.
Chief Oshkosh
@Baud:
I think the statement is missing a “not.”
schrodingers_cat
From Twitter
What is it going to take for women voting for Republicans to wake up?
Baud
@Chief Oshkosh:
Yes, thanks.
Bill Arnold
@JPL:
The usual “answer” to such a question is “what a ridiculous question. I am insulted…”.
Van Buren
Update to earlier thread: Fiona is running a temperature and hopefully will be fine after a week of antibiotics. Just gotta convince her to eat.
WaterGirl
@Van Buren: Oh, that’s really good news. Do they what’s going on?
NotMax
Missed out on the morning’s threads so don’t know if anyone has brought this up.
Assholes gonna asshole.
KenK
@Betty Cracker: It’s part of their grift, Betty.
Baud
@NotMax:
The African American part.
Martin
@lowtechcyclist: The judge did find that his first amendment rights were violated, but the judge cannot impose the remedy sought (reinstatement) because that’s outside of federal interest.
Mind you, a federal judge saying his federal rights were violated should carry great weight with the state Supreme Court which could reinstate him.
WaterGirl
@Martin: He should take his case all the way. Since he’s already lost his elected position, the worst that could happen is that the state SC and the US Supreme Court go on record as saying they don’t care if First Amendment rights are violated.
Let them own it.
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: But they probably used another word for it…
Roger Moore
@schrodingers_cat:
For it to happen to someone they know. While they’re formalizing it now, some prosecutors have been going after women who miscarried after “endangering” their “baby” this way for a while. It’s almost always poor BIPOC who are the targets. As long as it’s a matter of prosecutorial discretion, middle class White women can vote for this stuff with some confidence it will never affect them.
eclare
@Van Buren: Yay!
JPL
@Van Buren: Great news. If she has an upset stomach, try rice. I would mix a little rice and chicken with lots of extra liquid. This is what instant rice is made for.
Amir Khalid
@schrodingers_cat:
I was wondering when this was going to happen in America. I understand there are already countries that treat miscarriage as a felony.
BellyCat
Do appreciate that Warren endeavored to make a point. Even if his point is lost on the majority of Floriduh.
Did Warren really expect any other outcome? Doubtful…
Jackie
Speaking of DeSantis, this is a great story about what’s been happening re the refugees he dumped at Martha’s Vineyard. It doesn’t sound like a happy ending will be in DeSantis’ future!
Link
Sister Golden Bear
@Mike in NC: Not for lack of trying. As of yesterday there were 162 anti-trans bills so far this year — more than entire number (155) submitted last year. Several legislatures haven’t even started releasing bills yet.
Yesterday, Utah’s state senate passed a ban on gender-affirming care (which specifically had a carve to allow breast implants for cisgender girls), a ban on changing birth certificates for trans people under 18, and a forced-outing bill. The House will consider them next.
An Arizona Senate committee advanced a bill to ban teachers from using the pronouns or names that a student requests unless written parental permission is obtained first. It would also protect staff who have a “religious or moral conviction” against doing so from being forced to comply.
David 🌈☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
Dan Le Batard openly refers to him as DeFascist
Baud
@Sister Golden Bear:
Too on point.
lowtechcyclist
@Martin:
OK, what remedy would fall within the Federal interest?
If the answer is ‘none,’ then please distinguish that from saying a state is free to deprive a citizen of his First Amendment rights without consequence.
In theory. But it’s still a Federal court relying on a state court’s willingness to enforce a right established by the U.S. Constitution.
And if, as many of us expect, this state court is not willing? What does the First Amendment mean in Florida then?
THAT is the Federal interest here. There HAS to be a remedy that puts teeth in the First Amendment, or it becomes meaningless.
Roger Moore
@lowtechcyclist:
Protecting someone from fines or prison time for expressing themselves, and probably giving them monetary compensation if they had been penalized that way. The point isn’t that the Federal government can’t do anything; it’s that it may be outside federal powers to restore someone to office.
lowtechcyclist
@Roger Moore:
OK, what can the Federal government do in this situation? We all agree that the judge found Warren’s First Amendment rights had been violated.
As best as I can tell, you’re saying that what determines whether there’s a remedy for a state’s violating someone’s First Amendment rights depends on whether they do it by imprisoning someone, or causing someone financial loss by fines or other means. But if they do it by some other means, the Federal government is helpless against this incursion on someone’s Constitutional rights.
Or maybe it isn’t, but you’ve yet to explain what it can do in this situation.
Sounds like if a state is clever enough in how they violate someone’s Constitutional rights, there’s no Federal remedy. In which case, certain states will learn to be clever like that.
schrodingers_cat
@Roger Moore: A wanted pregnancy can go wrong and if you are stuck in one of those states that have these draconian laws your privilege may not be enough to save your life.
MisterDancer
Yes! Yes, you now have the baseline of why people like Kay and Sister Golden Bear spend so much time and energy here pointing out how a very similar Unconstitutional situation is happening RIGHT NOW to Women and LBGTQIA+ people.
And hell, those should have stronger legal remedies than this case, which is about a clear gap in how Federal and State law interact. But no, that’s not how any of this works in the real world, and for people like that…well, there’s Plessy. There’s Jim Crow. There’s land theft from Natives, a long long history of just fucking the law when it was convenient.
This is what it means to be marginalized – – to know how you’re being treated is utterly against any reasonable legal view, but the laws and/or justice system denies you those rights. You feel hopeless, weak, disimpowered, like the entire government is a farce at best.
I hate this situation. I also know that yeah, the entire Constitution only works when people who give a fuck about it are in charge across the board. Demanding that this one judge fix a clear gap in how our government works, a gap that really needs a legislative fix, and knowing that such a ruling is doomed – – that’s shit that just makes us feel good.
And not everything has a solution that can make you feel good. Sometimes you just find out the system is fucked, and you figure out how you’ll respond to that.
lowtechcyclist
@schrodingers_cat:
I know it deeply upsets you that white women only vote Democratic by 20 percentage points more than white men do.