Lots of people (including me, sometimes) complain about the Democratic Party’s or Democratic politicians’ messaging skills. Well, Joe Biden’s trip to Ukraine is powerful messaging for a domestic and international audience. In The Daily Beast, David Rothkopf gives his take on how it will land with several audiences.
On the most obvious level, the visit was meant to convey support for and respect to Ukraine and communicate the strength of the U.S. commitment to allied leaders who might wonder what our bizarro-world House circus means for support in the long run.
Rothkopf notes the visit also signals what a high priority Ukraine is for the U.S. so that opponents like China understand the risk entailed in ramping up assistance to Putin.
It’s also a message for Putin, Trump and their supporters, which have considerable overlap:
To Vladimir Putin, it was Biden’s way of saying, “I am here in Kyiv and you are not. You not only did not take Kyiv in days as some predicted, but your attack was rebuffed. Your army suffered a humiliating defeat from which it has not recovered…”
NATO, recently adrift and doubted by other U.S. political leaders, was stronger than ever, on the verge of expanding. America’s international leadership, recently in doubt, was once again beyond doubting.
In sending this message, Biden pointedly evoked without mentioning his name yet another American president in a visit to the Eastern edges of Europe: Donald Trump during his 2018 Helsinki meeting with President Vladimir Putin. Biden went to Europe to send Putin a message of American and allied strength. Trump went to grovel before Putin. Biden stood up for American values and our allies. Trump said he trusted Putin more than America’s own intelligence and law enforcement services. Biden embodied America’s strength. Trump illustrated and represented our greatest weakness.
Rothkopf says Trump’s gross, subservient behavior in Helsinki probably “encouraged Putin to undertake his ill-fated, hugely costly, profoundly ill-considered invasion last February.”
I find that more convincing than theories from guys like John Mearsheimer,* who blame the U.S. and E.U. for enticing Ukraine and other former Eastern bloc nations with visions of life in a Western-style democracy, as if those sovereign countries have no agency.
Anyhoo — messaging! It’s good!
*Speaking of Mearsheimer, he was once absolutely pantsed on this topic by the incomparable Isaac Chotiner in The New Yorker. As I said when Mr. Chotiner interviewed Alan Dershowitz about being “cancelled” by Martha’s Vineyard, in the unlikely event I ever see the name “Isaac Chotiner” appear as an incoming call, I will throw the phone into the river, change my name and flee the country.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I often think that the Republicans’ rejection of the first impeachment sent a message to Putin as well, that half the US government didn’t consider Ukraine a country, a government, that we take seriously. When Susan Collins stammered out that the President had learned his lesson, maybe she didn’t get which president, or which lesson, she was really talking about.
I’m sure the Kremlin is taking note of De Santis saying Joe Biden should worry more about our borders and less about Ukraine’s.
Biden is kicking ass and taking no prisoners when it comes to his messaging. I often wonder how differently the Obama administration would have been had Obama unleashed Biden early and often.
Alternate strategy: tape phone to gator, switch on speaker and yell “Interview this, Chotiner!” as you send the gator downstream.
For those who are interested, a bunch of fascinating Black History Month threads:
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Good point. Biden’s Ukraine visit also puts a wedge into a GOP fault line that exists between people like Senators Graham and Romney who are reflexively hawkish toward Russia and Christian nationalist true believers who see figures like Putin and Orbán as role models. The latter includes DeSantis, MTG and assorted other kooks, but it’s not the whole GOP. Yet. Clever to exploit that fissure.
On the approaching sad invasion anniversary, Darth Putin has done a rollup of tankie dismissals of the very thought Russia was about to, well, invade.
Biden showed considerable skill by bringing preinvasion intel forward, rather than the typical practice of keeping it hidden for fear of revealing how we collected it. Heck, even Ukraine was trying to wave it off at the very time Putin was claiming military drills were “purely defensive…not a threat.” (Feb 18, 2022).
LOL Mearsheimer? “enticing Ukraine and other former Eastern bloc nations with visions of life in a Western-style democracy,”
wait, like that’s BAD?
wt everlasting ff?
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I also think Putin knows just how weak-willed and corruptible most Republicans are that they are bad at governing/legislating. In addition, it certainly didn’t help that so many people fell for propaganda during the 2016 election, which probably only encouraged Putin’s behavior. Putin obviously had his own agenda too, but the continued flailing on our side wasn’t good.
Oh, right, we went from showing off American supermarkets full of goods and money to buy them to thinking that motherfucking Russia is better because they hate the gays? Am I getting that right?
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
We really don’t know how many Republicans are on Putin’s payroll or how much dirt Russia’s hacking of RNC communications has compromised some Republicans.
Given the effort Putin spent to infiltrate the GOP and fund other right-wing parties in Europe, part of his calculation has to be pro-Putin conservatives will swing into power before he runs out of bodies to throw into the meat grinder.
So…ETTD may include the Putin empire? Fingers-crossed.
Speaking of gators, the “I saw a gator at the park!” urban legends are usually urban legends. But not always.
I remember reading this when it was first published last year. It was such a convincing shiv that, every time I’ve seen Mearsheimer’s name invoked as an expert ever since, I’ve immediately written off that person as a dumbass, tankie, Russian stooge, or all of the above. Maybe that’s judgmental and somewhat short-sighted? But I haven’t yet found anything of Mearsheimer that would restore his credibility.
As predicted, MAGA morons are complaining that Biden should be in East Palestine.
Mostly right. They also think Putin is more masculine and that Russian women are more subservient.
Is Chotiner the new version of Mike Wallace (before Wallace got comfy and lost his fastball)?
Biden is managing support for Ukraine very very well. The messaging is strong, the foreign policy is coherent, and it’s a huge relief after the inanity and corruption of TFG.
@trollhattan: Just saw that-yikes! Glad it was caught.
This recording of Prigozhin (?) bemoaning a lack of ammunition is making waves in Russian circles. I’d bet he’s staying away from windows.
@M31: I clicked over to the Mearsheimer article (thanks for the link, Betty!). Man, what an absolute ass. I get the impression that no matter what the topic is, Mearsheimer’s take is grossly, hilariously wrong, yet he’s sure he’s right – just as he’s right about everything else.
Given what absolute fuck-ups the Univ Chicago economists turned out to be, I have to wonder if anyone at that school is right about anything.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trollhattan: damn, he can’t have been there long, right? has it really been that mild a winter in NYC?
@trollhattan: 4 feet long? Pfft. That’s a big lizard by Florida standards.
Have we ever seen Mearsheimer and ChatGPT is a room together?
From a piece by Eliot Cohen in The Atlantic:
People who rule through dominance are extremely susceptible to someone with the courage to defy them. Zelensky has done that first and foremost, but a stream of Western leaders have followed suit, and now Biden, which is an incredibly powerful “fuck you” to Putin.
@trollhattan: Poor little thing looks pitiful in those pictures! I’d invite them to release “Godzilla” off my dock, but the big gators would tear it to pieces.
@trollhattan: Poor critter’s in bad shape after spending X amount of time in a NY winter. Hope he (?) recovers and has a happy life at the zoo.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Walk me through this: Biden could have “messaged” Kent Conrad and Byron Dorgan into becoming Keynsians? Joe Lieberman into supporting a public option? Martha Coakley into being a better candidate? But Obama wouldn’t let him? All counter-factuals being equal, I guess that’s all possible, but I’m skeptical.
Let’s not forget the eight U.S. Senators who celebrated U.S. independence by sniffing the feet of the Russian dictator in hopes of having a shirtless horseback ride. Their pledge of fealty likely went a long way towards convincing Putin our government was craven in the face of his mighty military.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I’m impressed by Biden’s courage and clarity
Mai Naem mobile
Wonder if you need any messaging with Biden and foreign leaders.. Biden just looks like your typical American president. TFG always looked odd, awkward, bullying and a lot of times dumb when he was dealing with foreign leaders. It was always embarrassing.
Anonymous At Work
@Betty Cracker: Absolutely. Putin is giving various persons “windowitis” because they might gain the most from surviving his regime. Once the fear is gone, a lot of people will think about where they will stand once the dust settles (not just surviving Putin but surviving the next few Russian Fuhrers and any popular backlashes). And before you know it, Putin’s bodyguards at night might have a “Conflict of Interest”.
@Mai Naem mobile: Embarrassing to us. The GOP base sees things quite differently.
Just read that O’Keefe was booted from Project Veritas for Reasons. I hope this all falls out equitably with no violent infighting…
Anonymous At Work
@Chief Oshkosh: They were right that a lot of the law lacked a strong basis in economic theory, that the areas most heavily dealing with economics needed a better basis, and that judges needed to understand and apply economic theory more often and more explicitly.
They were just 100% wrong about the economic theory being used. People are not machines with set preferences and Deep Blue like calculating capacity and “perfect information” about everything (literally “perfect”). Once those assumptions stop being 100%, their theories no longer work.
But… but… who will star in their awesome Dance Slap videos now?
This is musical protest’s loss.
Deutsche Welle English, has an 18-minute story analyzing Ukraine War disinformation campaigns over the past year.
@Baud: That’s true in most cases, like when Trump rudely shoved a fellow national leader aside at a summit or waddled past the Queen. But his servile performance in Helsinki seemed to embarrass even some of the hardcore Trumpers.
@oatler: Is that like getting kicked out of Big Time Wrestling for fighting?
@oldgold: PSA – You can delete everything including and after the “?” in those gigantically long URLs from Twitter and elsewhere. (It’s breadcrumbs telling Twitter where you got the link.)
Completely concur re Chotiner.
We’re he ever to come calling, I would consider exciting opportunities in the anchorite field.
Speaking of messaging, my friend Debbie used to live in Alaska so I told her that Rep. Mary Peltola’s campaign slogan was “Fish Family Freedom.”
“Perfect,” Debbie said.
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I am also impressed by his energy. His schedule must be exhausting, yet he has time to connect with everyone.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yes. It’s been an absurdly warm winter along the D.C. to NYC corridor.
Highs were in the 50’s and 60’s last week around Philadelphia. Outside of a cold spell around Christmas and one or two days of subfreezing temps in January, the winter has been just an extension of fall weather.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The article said it was lethargic and in poor shape, probably due to the temps. Poor thing was probably dumped as an exotic pet gone bad.
I’m not a gator lover, but I’m an animal abuse hater.
I was talking about messaging with a friend a couple of days ago and we came to the conclusion that the GOP now consistently engages in promoting what, in a sports context, is called “playing not to lose.” In that context, that is usually a formula for losing.
This has been a seminal change in Republican messaging since Reagan. You see this across the board now with the GOP, e.g., being afraid to cross Putin, being afraid of simple changes in tax policy to deal with debt, being afraid of some poor folks crossing the border when we have a labor shortage, etc. More generally, being pessimistic about the ability of all of us to do anything together. This is an evolution having its seeds in Reaganite anti government rhetoric but, for all his faults, Reagan didn’t do a lot of talking America down. That started more recently, mostly after the colossal screwups of the second Bush admin and, perhaps more importantly, demographic changes that threaten imagined Caucasian superiority.
Biden has been playing this pretty adeptly. He constantly refers about the ability of the US to achieve anything if we work together, implying that the GOP is rooting for failure. Using American ingenuity and manufacturing might to help Ukraine preserve its democracy is a piece of this. Ukraine funding is a drop in the bucket as far as forwarding democracy and containing Russian imperialism and gives a showcase for proving the superiority of western weaponry and tactics.
The GOP messaging on this is mystifying given their past, but maybe this is a reversion to the mean that existed pre-WWII, when many republicans opposed aid to the allies in Europe. The Reagan era GOP may have actually been an aberration in GOP messaging but, after all, Reagan was originally a Roosevelt Dem.
Yup, Putin knows just how much money he has funneled into GOP pockets.
@Tom Levenson: You’d be fine, honestly. Chotiner also does friendly interviews, where he’s talking with someone who is a genuine expert and isn’t a self-important fool. He’s very good at giving people the space they need to show their true selves, for better or for worse.
Of course they are, even though the mayor doesn’t want bigwig visits.
And the most ridiculous part of the argument is that Biden has visited 13 different American cities (not counting trips to Delaware, etc.) since the beginning of 2023 – that’s almost 2 a week.
@Mai Naem mobile:
I saw some video of Biden walking with Zelensky in Kyiv. If you hadn’t know who was who, you’d have thought that he was showing Zelensky around – he just looks like he’s in charge.
America, fuck yeah!
@eclare: He knows how to take care of himself.
E.g. 2015 short of him doing 30# bicep curls while on the phone
Anonymous At Work
Digby reporting on National Review complimenting the size of Biden’s huevos. Not linking to NatRev, though.
Hi Colorado. This fellow helps offset Boebert, so good work there.
I admit I’m still sometimes a little amazed at the willful blindness of the anti-Ukraine Putin apologists in the Republican Party. They’re evidently able to overlook the continuing stream of Russian atrocities and keep mouthing noises about Strength and Controlling Spending. They can’t even fall back on racism or religious bigotry, since Ukraine is very White and very Christian. There’s something a little creepy about it, like the evident sociopathy of Santos et al.
And if President Biden had stopped by East Palestine, the whole GQP Noise Machine would be cranked up to 11 shouting “TOO LATE, JOE!” and “BIDEN’S KATRINA!!”
Eff those people.
Keep showing the world who’s in charge, Uncle Joe!
Nickel bet he calls DeSantis’ stupid ‘borders’ line “pretty weak sauce” in the next 48 hours…
@HumboldtBlue: Ooh, “earn money and steal weapons for sale to terrorists around the world” sounds like sticking the landing on a really difficult gymnastics move.
We make; we sell; we steal (the same ones we sell? Nice work.); we give to “terrorists” (the definition of which is considerably elastic).
Good work, NATO military-industrial complex and all-around baddies.
Very insightful analysis, I think, thanks for sharing!
@Anonymous At Work: I know that the old freshwater/salt water distinctions are very blurred now, but certainly DeLong and Krugman have stated in various formats that the answer to the question: ‘What were the freshwater boys right about?’ turned out to be: Not much.
@Anonymous At Work:
I just watched that DeSantis clip, the man has taken the number one spot for punchable faces.
See, now, this…is the mark of a scarily good interviewer.
Internet trolls can bitch all they want. Biden strong-armed DeWine into getting FEMA out there. Also, there are a lot of first, second and third generation Eastern Europeans and union workers living in that part of OH and W PA. Biden’s trip to Ukraine will suit them just fine. Dumbasses holding weird rallies and passing out paper towels – not so much.
@trollhattan: OK, I don’t always agree with Jason Crow’s approach to Democratin’ (tho’ he’s won an election and I haven’t, so there’s that), but this tweet gets an unequivocal “Right on!” from me.
Anonymous At Work
@HumboldtBlue: He’s even more punchable and less likeable in person, I am told. And remember, Fox is as friendly as it’ll get. He is a double-Ivy Leaguer, so he’s smart enough to try to stay within the bubble, but that will only take you so far.
The UN General Assembly laughed at TFG during his speech. No seriously, diplomats who are used to hearing crazy claims laughed out loud at the nonsense he tried to peddle. That’s how much the world respected him.
Then there was Macron, Trudeau, Boris, and someone else talking about TFG behind his back at a major meeting, gossiping like school children.
@randy khan: On one of the Ohio train derailment Twitter threads, someone pointed out Trump’s deregulation efforts that included the rollback of train braking and safety provisions in 2017. Of course the response from the typical numpty was “Biden should have fixed this!” rather than lay the blame on Trump or republicans.
So rooting for injuries would be wrong? Asking for a friend.
@Anonymous At Work:
He surrounds himself with a bubble in Florida, one that his clumsy, creepy, sweaty-palmed ass can survive in. My sense is he melts in the glare of the national media, he’s got all the charisma of cancer.
Presidential visits require a certain level of coordination between local and federal law enforcement, as well as other local departments to handle any security concerns.
A Presidential visit to a town is a lot more involved than just an ordinary person passing through town. I bet local government resources are stretched pretty thin in East Palestine right now.
A lot of Republicans making this criticism know this, but don’t care about the truth.
I wonder when the gun lobby will sue the TSA about its authority to keep guns off planes, because they want people to be able to carry guns everywhere.
The current SCOTUS will rule in favor of the gun lobby, if the gun lobby can come with whatever crackpot legal theory they need to, in order to file a lawsuit.
@HumboldtBlue: He has announced he won’t be speaking at CPAC, which I always though of as necessary punishment for Republican hopefuls, so wonder what’s up with that?
@gene108: “Don’t think of it as a gun, think of it as a cabin depressurization tool for times you really need that.”
He doesn’t want that CPAC stink on him and no videos of him appearing that would just be used by opponents. I wonder what his internal polling is telling him about his chances in the GOP primary.
And then there is this extraordinary development with Vietnam carmaker Vinfast. To think, the year I was born was the year Johnson doubled down on the Vietnam War and started sending more and more troops, now we have a Vietnamese carmaker in the States.
@trollhattan: It’s their emotional support binkie.
@Anonymous At Work: Not really an Ivy Leaguer, he got his “Harvard” degree from Harvard Extension, as I recall.
Anonymous At Work
@trollhattan: What red meat can he bring to CPAC when Fox is already promoting him as the second-coming of Reagan? He can only lose in that performance. Worse, he could be forced to compete against Trump, which he can’t do.
First reaction this AM was that it was in part a domestic-politics Gift of Rope to the latter, the members of Team Russia. For that to work well, there needs to be vigorous and sustained pushback against people in the US on Team Russia badmouthing the trip, including on social media.
@Anonymous At Work:
I’d imagine Trump will use the opportunity to call DeSantis a chicken.
There is only one way Putin is leaving the presidency, and I don’t think the Russians have it in them to get rid of him. He is the Joe Stalin of the 21st century — ruthless and existing in a culture of strong men that give reserve to anyone opposing him. I have read his doctor could have treated Stalin better in the end, but no one raised a hand against him before that. Putin has learned from Stalin and the culture seems regrettably unchanged. Anyone who might have opposed Putin is probably dead by now or will be soon, and the rest are too fearful and captured in a culture that sets little useful precedence.
I hope to be proved wrong.
@Westyny: I think it’s culture war capo Christopher Rufo who pretends to have a Harvard degree but really doesn’t. DeSantis is a Harvard Law graduate (undergrad from Yale).
@M31: What irritates me to no end in people like Mearsheimer is that their view is extremely paternalistic. As if Ukrainians, and other people in East European Countries, don’t have a say in what sort of country they want to live in.
Had Putin built a more democratic Russia, instead of transforming his country into a Mafia authoritarian state, Ukrainians would have probably been interested in forging significant partnerships with Russia. Russians were their cousins, many Ukrainians have family in Russia, and lots of Ukrainians speak Russian, Zelinsky included.
It’s about democracy. Always has been.
Mearsheimer wants to blame someone ? He should blame Russia, who chose Darkness, and has alienated everyone who values democracy and freedom.
Anonymous At Work
@Westyny: Yale undergrad, got in legit. Harvard Law, got in legit and completed when commissioned his second year (of three). Double-Ivy in a way that doesn’t invite doubt since he did service as a JAG.
The weak spot is his off-year coaching HS softball and being a creep.
in the unlikely event I ever see the name “Isaac Chotiner” appear as an incoming call, I will throw the phone into the river, change my name and flee the country.
Naw. Take the call and tell this shit for brains that he’s extremely lucky that he gets to live in a country that allows him to be so fucking insane and not be imprisoned in an asylum.
@LadySuzy: Absolutely right.
It’s a bright, Dark Brandon day. IOW Good presidentin’ on President’s Day.
Where is my mail, Dark Brandon? Where?!?
@HumboldtBlue: Love it!
Speaking of messages, I’m enjoying this one:
James O’Keefe is out at Project Veritas after internal power struggle
I’ve no doubt he’ll end up with a berth of some sort on the wingnut welfare gravy train, but seeing the little asshole getting pantsed by his own organization is a delight.
@danielx: The Eddie Haskell of conservative activists. Can you imagine opening the ol checkbook and asking the twerp, “So, how much do you want?”
@HumboldtBlue: Ha ha ha! Damn I love that-stay as cool as ever Joe.
Starting to question the leadership model being used by those Wagner folks.
He had what it took to finally oust Mike Coffman. That was a decade long slog that Colorado Dems just could not do previously.
@Miss Bianca: they stand for nothing, have no vision and only want to grift and target vulnerable groups- the faster the GoP collapses the better
@HumboldtBlue: Cancer may be more popular; there are cures available for some of them. None for DeSatan, as far as i can tell.
@Anonymous At Work: He was JAG at Gitmo supposedly to make sure the “enhanced interrogation” of the prisoners was “lawful”, which means whatever they want it to mean in that place.
In other words, he was there to ensure the torture methods used were whatever they thought they could get away with. Or suppress any evidence of the ones they couldn’t.
Remember “No puppet, no puppet, you’re the puppet”?
Joy in FL
@BR: Wow, thank you for these links about Black History. I’m following mekka okereke now, and I bookmarked all the links because I only had time to read the first three of them right now. Thank you.
Here’s DeSantis a few weeks ago on Starlink and why Ukraine should show more love for Musk
As the Federal Govt provides 20% of Florida’s budget maybe he should apply his own dictum to his dealings with Biden
Anonymous At Work
@GibberJack: It’s redacted and he was a Second LT. I won’t say that shit didn’t happen or that he didn’t witness shit happening. The issue with war crimes and crimes against humanity rest of Shrub, Cheney, etc. And more than a few in CIA and other places, who destroyed/spoiled evidence. This isn’t a good line to question without substance because he could have read from a card describing the rights given to them at their not-a-trial-but-tribunal-under-made-up-standards, and read it accurately but he probably wasn’t responsible for deciding who had what rights.
The weak spot in his pre-political career was his bullying and possible grooming during his off-year in Georgia among high school students. Drunk on beer, drunk on power.
Funny and true.
@delphinium: I read that, too. TFG did that shortly after taking office, to curry favor with the railroad honchos, who were bellyaching about “unneeded” safety rules put in place by Obama.😡
@ian: As I pointed out: “he’s won an election and I haven’t.”
@Steeplejack: So true!
@dmsilev: Outside of everyone on BJ saying so (as in, I say so, no need for details!), I don’t see how the linked article pantsed anyone. Maybe just those people who think using the term absolves them of proving their argument.
I found that Mearshimer made his case despite mostly irrelevant and gotcha attempts by the interviewer. He believes that Putin and most Russian leaders find NATO expansion into Ukraine about as acceptable as we would if China decided to put Cuba under its protection.
Does that mean we stand by while Russia invades? Of course not, but short of an outright Ukrainian victory that pushes Russia back to its borders, there is a non-zero chance Russia keeps a foothold there for many years. They seem to think that is important.
Props to today’s Ukrainians for fighting for their independence. They are paying a much higher cost in terms of social and infrastructure damage that we ever did in our war for the same. And probably suffering more bloodshed per capita. It is a heroic and inspiring tale.
More debatable is whether the US could have taken steps to help avoid this disaster. Mearshimer makes a plausible and good faith argument for yes. Going forward, those who dismiss realist arguments may see some merit to them if a defeated and bankrupt Russia–surely unable to pay reparations–collapses and provides the biggest, most nuked up example of a failed state yet.
Energy replenished after gator aid.
@HumboldtBlue: A priority – even in Ukraine!!!
And now for something completely different!
@Tom Levenson: “All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well.”
@trollhattan: Poor little thing. I hope they find a safe warm place for him. There’s one in the creek a few 100 ft from here about that size, it looks a lot healthier
Nicolle Wallace is discussing the Biden trip, revealed the White House let the Kremlin no beforehand the trip was going to happen.
@HumboldtBlue: I love everything about that picture 😍
Dems don’t have a messaging problem. People know what we stand for. Our issues do great when they are presented as ballot measures (like abortion rights in OK and KS).
I am reminded of a post Reconstruction era editorial cartoon that showed a white man being swept down a river while a black man, holding a tree on the shore, told him to grab his hand & be saved. He refused, saying he’d die before he took the hand of a n****.
They like the “free stuff.” They know which party promotes them. They just don’t want to vote for the party with the black people in it.
@dmsilev: Chotiner is like alcohol. He doesn’t bring anything out of a person that wasn’t always in there, just lowers the barriers that ordinarily present the true self from coming to the front.
@HumboldtBlue: That was a trip down memory lane! So many faces long gone…
@kalakal: Does DeSantis not know the US pays for those Skylinks?
Asked and answered, I suppose.
Thank you for saying this. Messaging has always been a frustrating discussion, as it assumes an equal playing field for Conservatives and Progressives in our media.
This is, so laughably, not the case. And it’s been that way for a long while. It’s just that the rot has gotten in front of a lot more eyeballs, over the last few decades.
I’m in a discussion with someone and could use some help. I’m looking for some polling data on how much American liberals vs conservatives have a positive opinion of the United States. I’ve been looking for an hour, and search engines keep pointing me to everything else except for what I’m looking for: how much other countries view the US, how Americans view the political parties, etc.
Are there any polls out there showing how the different ideologies/political parties view the US, positively or negatively?
Liz puts Marge in her place😁:
David 🌈☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
Dump will probably compare him to a … [checks notes] … a “feline”
Gin & Tonic
@Arclite: Just make up the numbers you want. If the data are that hard to find, your interlocutor won’t have them either.
Gin & Tonic
@topclimber: What Mearsheimer and other “realists” consistently ignore is that Ukraine has agency. It is not a colony or a protectorate, it is an independent nation entitled, as all nations, to determine its own domestic and foreign policy.
Gin & Tonic
@Steeplejack: Ukrzaliznytsia > Amtrak.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jackie: reminds me of Nikki Haley’s post of this morning (I’m guessing deleted since everyone is screen-shooting it), as she observed President’s Day by reminding us that as President, George Washington “oversaw the creation of our Constitution“.
about 48 hours after she proposed a competency test for politicians over 75
@MisterDancer: @Glory b: Agreed Ds don’t have a messaging problem. The United States has a racism problem. The majority of the largest demographic (aka white people) votes R since they view life as a zero sum game. One thing besides low taxes for the rich that the R party delivers on is bigotry.
Mear whatever is a YouTube troll just like Jordan Petersen. Whenever I encounter his videos on YouTube I mark them as spam.
@Gin & Tonic: Exactly. They look at the world as if it’s a game of Risk. A few nations are players, the rest are there purely to be used by the select few
Asma Khan on Chef’s Table on Netflix, extraordinary woman.
Gin & Tonic
@LadySuzy: What evidence do you have for your assertion that Ukrainians would have been interested in closer partnership?
@Arclite: I’m not sure I’ve even seen anyone trying to do a partisan poll breakdown of, basically, “do you love or hate America?” I’d say the polling companies would consider it an insulting question to ask but they normally don’t seem to have a lot of inhibitions about that.
DeSantis making friends and influencing people in Illinois.
I bet those polls fluctuate wildly based on who was president when they were taken.
@JustRuss: So OKeefe will have to rely on h8s OnlyFans page.
Didn’t know he had an OnlyFans page?
Isn’t the US one of the player nations? Why don’t we get to do what we want when it comes to helping Ukraine?
What if there were a strong Central American Treaty Organization that Mexico finally wanted to join. Do we invade and occupy the Baja and later send troops towards Mexico City?
might be interesting. who loves america more liberals or conservatives
Conservatives, in general, see America in more or less black-and-white terms
Despite increasing polarization, people across the political spectrum appear to be largely united on what it means to be patriotic, according to new findings from the McCourtney Institute for Democracy’s Mood of the Nation Poll.
Also too, Cuba was allied with the Soviets and after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, we gave up. We didn’t escalate to genocide.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Manyakitty: I repeat the prayer to myself when I’m worrying in the night. Julian of Norwich, I think
J R in WV
As if a “real man” wants a “subservient” woman ~!!~
Wife was a labor organizer and elected Sec-Treasurer of her national union local. When Reagan was elected and moving into the Federal government, a RWNJ stooge implanted in the Labor Dept called Wife to threaten her. She was furious and remained a union officer until she took retirement.
Plus Putin doesn’t appear masculine to me at all, he looks like a phony trying to look masculine… and failing.
@danielx: I wonder if Matt Schlapp has a subscription to Jane’s OKeefe’s Only Fans?
James E Powell
Exactly. Right track/wrong track also doesn’t account for what the respondents’ idea of what the track is. For eight years, for a very large portion of the nation, the color of the president’s skin meant “wrong track.”
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Exactly. 🙏
@BretH: Your point is accurate. The difference between US<->MX, and RU<->UA relations, is that in the former case, we get along pretty well. That, not MX’s proximity to the US, is what brings MX into our “sphere of influence” (just as with CA). If (per @Gin & Tonic: ) the US treated MX the way RU treats *all* of its neighbors (the way US treats Cuba, *ugh*) then yeah, they’d be 100% within their rights to want to have nothing to do with us, and it’d be aggression for us to insist otherwise.
None of what I write above is original: it’s been well-argued by well-respected IR folks. Mearsheimer is an asshat.
@BR: Thank you for those excellent and timely links. Good lessons on how to frame the narrative and tone. Following Mekka Okereke now…it takes talent to expound complex issues well in tweet format.
I don’t want to know if O’Keefe has an OnlyFans page, much less that people would actually pay to view it. The mere thought is nauseating.
Considering the long casualty lists for their last N frontal assaults, I’d wager “them Vogner orcs” preferred model is bleedership…with the grunts and not the high muckamucks doing the bleeding.
@Dan B: James OKeefe, not Jane. GD Autocorrect.
@Brachiator: What I often hear is some form of the formula that conservatives love America but hate most of the people in it.
The difference from liberals is that conservatives simply define the people and things they hate as un-American. Liberals tend to jump on each other when they try to do this: “how dare you say racism is un-American, that’s denying a sordid history of centuries of racism that is as American as apple pie.” Etc.
@danielx: You pass the test. You are SANE!
J R in WV
I have flown many times with my weapons in my checked luggage, ever since I was stalked by a mountain lion at my cousin’s home in Arizona. The airlines NEVER lose luggage with checked firearms inside… Never~!!~
It’s worth the hassle just for insuring that your luggage will be there at your destination. Not on the carousel, either, in an agent’s office…
Attributed to Porfirio Diaz, dictator of Mexico from most of 1876-1911.
Descriptive vs normative
@ian: This is quite fair, and I’ll reinterpret (perhaps incorrectly):
It used to be, the US and most countries signed-up for Mearsheimer’s definition of “spheres of influence”. We used gunboat diplomacy a shit-ton. Within my adult life, FFS. All over Central America (again, FFS). But that doesn’t mean it was right. It was wrong, 100% wrong.
@MisterDancer: I agree wholeheartedly with both you and @Glory b
J R in WV
Of course Cuba was protected and supported by the Soviet Union until its fall… not China so much, but the former Russian Communist state.
Also, Russians were upset by Ukraine’s movement towards membership in the European Community… not NATO so much until the 2014 seizure of Crimea.
I will never forget how astonished Russian troops were by indoor toilets in Ukraine!!
Running hot water?
Can not be !!!
Some of that Taliban is bored with working a 9to5?
Nation running means doing the mundane😒😒
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Or they have a narrow view of what IS American.
Yes, you are getting the farish right side correct. However what they are is just far more open than a lot of those on the right, they want a government that is limited to dealing with their every whim and completely throwing away the concept our government was founded on. (Of course an unreasonable percentage of the founders wanted a government just like the far right wants today.) The far right wants a world where they are in charge, where the monied class rules because of course if one has money they must know all the important stuff. Like how to steal it from everyone else, how to keep it from everyone else, and how to be pompous and arrogant about all of it. How to be human? They don’t got that. How to belong to a democracy? They don’t got that. How not to be pompous, arrogant, racist, sexist and hate everyone not like them? They don’t got that either.
@Baud: ‘cos we’re nice.
The answer to this is “doing what, exactly?”
@Matt McIrvin: Another complicating factor is that the views of progressives and conservatives as to what specifically comprises “America” is almost precisely perpendicular.
Gin & Tonic
Paul Gosar tweets “Ukraine is not our friend, and Russia is not our enemy.” Just in case you were wondering who he works for.
I guess be careful what you wish for…
@J R in WV:
The mountain lion followed you to the airport?
Now I’m picturing a bunch of Taliban fighters listening to Dolly Parton on their iTunes.
Mountain Lions on a Plane was a surprisingly disappointing sequel.
The sniffed just a bit higher and farther behind than his feet. Those noses were firmly planted where the sun don’t shine.
@Mai Naem mobile:
TFG always looked odd, awkward, bullying and a lot of times dumb
TFG always looked odd, awkward, bullying and at all times dumb
@Arclite: You are asking a question that is too big. What does it mean to view the US positively?
As a single data point, I find signaling patriotism via flag waving downright silly. I might look like I feel less positive than someone who has a flagpole in front of their house.
But I always vote and otherwise participate in the election process (contribute, help campaign, etc.) and I admire the ideals we put forth, for example, equal treatment of all. Even as I recognize we fall short of those ideals every damn day.
Why don’t you just look for examples that support your thesis, like compare and contrast Trump’s inaugural speech vs. Biden’s.
Maybe check your reading comprehension. Chotiner is one of the good guys. His interview subjects are the (self-exposed) villains.
@HumboldtBlue: I bet Elmhur$t didn’t expect that.
@Burnspbesq: Tossing hand towels.
@Betty Cracker: ah, you’re right. Sigh. Harvard has a lot to answer for.
@Dan B: Didn’t want to know he has an OnlyFans page.
It tested better as Pumas on a Plane, but the suits didn’t get it. And Cougars on a Plane was already out as a straight-to-video porn movie.
I don’t think the future former Mrs. Greene understands how what she has to say diminishes in all respects as she has to say something every single day.
@Chief Oshkosh: There’s a wonderful tshirt you see on campus occasionally that says on the front Well, That’s All Well And Good in Practice, and on the back But How Does It Work In Theory?
I have 3 UChicago alums in my family, none of them economists thankfully, but that does pretty much sum up the place.
@gene108: It’ll be either 77 or 79 in DC on Thursday. In February. It’s nuts.
Misheard that’s the place to find carrion luggage?
Missing Lynx Goes to Rio.