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You are here: Home / Open Threads / WTF?

WTF?

by WaterGirl|  March 19, 202311:55 am| 109 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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Is noon on the east cost and 9 am on the west coast too early to talk about war and politics on a Sunday?

WTF?  How is this even possible?

Russia never went through the procedure of joining the UN, and yet it is about to chair its Security Council, even as it fights a war of aggression and commits atrocities. This should be stopped.https://t.co/lWVfvZ4Hxt

— Timothy Snyder (@TimothyDSnyder) March 18, 2023

I know this was floated as a possible solution last year, and it went nowhere.  Is there any reason to think it could go somewhere this time?  It seems like only one thing has changed since a year ago – with the full savagery of the genocidal war on full display for a year, perhaps the political will to stand up to Putin might be stronger?

The Danger of Russia Becoming President of the U.N. Security Council  (Time)

The potential damage of a gavel-wielding Putin is hard to overstate. Even beyond its symbolic value; the Presidency of the U.N. Security Council carries very real institutional power within the U.N., chairing all discussions, applying the rules, controlling the docket, schedule, and credentialing for all debates, and managing all draft resolutions. And Russia has proven adept in the past at abusing the vast procedural power of the Security Council Presidency.

In fact, the last time Russia held the rotating Security Council Presidency was, not coincidentally, February 2022. Back then, Russia sought to exploit the Security Council to confuse and mislead the world of its real intentions, and Russia’s devious machinations were aimed at impeding international support for Ukraine both leading up to and immediately following the start of the invasion on February 24.

The U.N. is an imperfect institution and it would have been challenging for the U.N. to effectively respond to the early warning signs of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine of due to periodic bureaucratic paralysis. However, Russia’s holding of the Security Council Presidency seriously exacerbated these challenges and rendered the U.N. largely impotent when the world most needed it, and even as the international community rallied around Ukraine.

For example, in the weeks leading up to the invasion, Russia abused its Presidency to anoint pro-Russian stooges as “Ukrainian civil society activists” at Security Council meetings, ostensibly speaking on behalf of Ukrainian civil society, and legitimized by bearing the ostensible institutional imprimatur of the UN. Their disinformation about the “evil Ukrainian regime” and their own “peaceful intentions” were supposed to confuse other countries and erode the efforts of the Ukrainian delegation to build international support for last-ditch peace efforts within the insular halls of the U.N.

In the weeks before the invasion, Russia manipulated the rules of the U.N. to force unprecedented institutional condemnation of economic sanctions, which escaped notice in the west but which was happily spread far and wide by the Kremlin, especially to third world countries. Russia was apparently thinking two steps ahead – when the invasion broke out in late February, Russian propagandists were quick to build on these discussions as a cudgel to erode the legitimacy of the western coalition in the eyes of developing nations.

Similarly, Russia used the Security Council as a venue to advertise an alphabet soup of their puppet international organizations, including the military block it leads, CSTO—providing these Putin puppets a veneer of international legitimacy right as the invasion started.

These startling examples do not even include countless other, smaller ways in which Russia leveraged obscure procedural rules to make life for the Ukrainian delegation difficult both within the U.N. and in the broader diplomatic arena.

Just as Russia’s abuse of the Presidency last February effectively immobilized the Security Council at the moment of maximum peril, we are now at a similar juncture, and if the first round was any indication, the consequences of unleashing Putin for a second go at the gavel are genuinely horrific. With warning signs that global support for Ukraine may be under increasing strain, it does not take much imagination to conceive how Russia will once again misuse the powers of the Presidency to sow disinformation and drive wedges between U.N. member states.

Fortunately, the members of the UN have a way out of this predicament—if they are courageous enough to enforce their own U.N. Charter.

As others have pointed out, the legal basis of Russia’s membership in the Security Council is dubious to begin with, as Russian membership was never subject to a confirmation vote, nor was Russia an original founding member of the U.N.

Rather, Russia merely seized a seat at the table for itself. Once the USSR dissolved, thirteen of the fifteen former socialist republics, from Armenia to Azerbaijan to Uzbekistan, had to apply to membership with no nation grandfathered in, excepting Ukraine and Belarus which had been among the original members along with the USSR since 1945. Yet, somehow, like an uninvited dinner guest, Russia showed up and began gobbling up other diners’ meals, even though Russia’s wish to be recognized as the continuator state to the USSR was never formally discussed or voted upon.

Russia’s lack of legal standing aligns with the fact that it simply does not have the political, diplomatic, or economic power needed to be a permanent member of the Security Council. Their aspirations are woefully misaligned with their actual capabilities. Despite its swagger as an a neighborhood bully in eastern Europe, Russia is a failing economy running unfunded massive deficits and not remotely an economic superpower. As we’ve documented, over 1,000 major multinationals have pulled out of Russia crippling over one third of its economy. Russia brings no finished goods to the global marketplace while its raw materials are commodities from fuel and food to metals all affordably available elsewhere.

It is therefore little surprise that in reality, Russia is little more than a freeloader at the U.N.—at the expense of far smaller nations. Russia squeezed its way onto the Security Council despite contributing much less than any Security Council permanent member, less than 2% of the U.N. budget, which is less than half of the financial contributions of Italy and comparable to the budgetary contribution of much smaller states such as the Netherlands. For comparison, the U.S. provides 22% of the U.N.’s budget.

We therefore lay out an urgent three-step process to block Putin from taking over the Security Council by invoking the U.N.’s own charter and to bring Russia’s standing into better alignment with its actual capabilities.

Now that Russia has been designated an aggressor state by the U.N., leading international law scholars have noted that this technically disqualifies Russia from presiding over any U.N. body, much less the U.N. Security Council. The U.N. should thus invoke its charter and prohibit Russia from assuming the Presidency of the Security Council.

Russia should be removed from the Security Council and General Assembly, given its unlawful presence; if Russia is interested, it may apply for a non-voting observatory status in the General Assembly as a provisional step.

Russia should then have to formally apply for membership, to be discussed and voted upon both in the General Assembly and in the Security Council, like every other new member of the U.N.

Ultimately, the President of the U.N. Security Council is supposed to safeguard global peace and harmony. Putin cannot be allowed to claim this mantle as long as he continues his invasion of Ukraine, and the member states of the U.N.—in particular, the U.S., the U.K., and France, three of the five permanent members of the Security Council, should be ready to stand up to the convening of the Security Council under the illegitimate leadership of warlord Putin. These actions must be immediate—with only two weeks left before Putin takes over the U.N.

>This about article was written by Jeffrey Sonnenfeld and Sergiy Kyslytsya.

Sonnenfeld is the Senior Associate Dean and Lester Crown Professor in Management Practice at Yale School of Management, and President of the Yale Chief Executive Leadership Institute.

Amb. Sergiy Kyslytsya is the Permanent Representative of Ukraine to the United Nations, a position he has held since 2020 when he was appointed by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, after serving as Ukraine’s Deputy Foreign Minister from 2014-2020.

What they are suggesting makes total sense to me.  But logic, without knowing all the rules or all the issues, does not always prevail.  I hope this is actually possible, both procedurally and in terms of political will.
.

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    109Comments

    1. 1.

      2liberal

      March 19, 2023 at 12:00 pm

      But logic, without knowing all the rules or all the issues, does not always prevail.

       

      The logic is “they have nukes.”

      Reply
    2. 2.

      kindness

      March 19, 2023 at 12:07 pm

      The UN would be a better body if no nation had veto powers.  Just sayin’.

      Reply
    3. 3.

      Raoul Paste

      March 19, 2023 at 12:08 pm

      Well this is grim

      Reply
    4. 4.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 12:12 pm

      @kindness: ​
        The UN wouldn’t be if some nations did not nave veto powers.

      Reply
    5. 5.

      Gin & Tonic

      March 19, 2023 at 12:19 pm

      I hope this is actually possible, both procedurally and in terms of political will.

      It isn’t.

      Reply
    6. 6.

      West of the Rockies

      March 19, 2023 at 12:19 pm

      OT, but has anyone read the smug essay by Thomas Chatterton Williams attempting (disingenuously) to define Wokeness at The Atlantic?  Ugh.

      Also.  Too.  Russia shouldn’t sit on so much as the damn Paddycakes Council.

      Reply
    7. 7.

      WaterGirl

      March 19, 2023 at 12:23 pm

      @Gin & Tonic: Say more?

      Reply
    8. 8.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 12:24 pm

      What good the UN can do is not really at the GA or Security Council level*, but at level of the agencies who do actual good work in the ground.

      *Peacekeeping forces in areas where no Security Council members’ oxen are being gored are an exception.

      Reply
    9. 9.

      Another Scott

      March 19, 2023 at 12:24 pm

      I’m no expert, but I don’t expect this to go anywhere.  China wants russia as a counter-party to the EU NATO and the USA.  It wants stability (with a slowly rising China).  It doesn’t want the RF to fail.

      While it’s true that russia didn’t go through the steps, it was because it was obvious to everyone that russia was the succeeding party (and would have won the necessary votes to keep the seats if they had gone through the steps).  The nukes didn’t go away when the USSR did.

      The UN has done lots of good in the last nearly 80 years.  It probably needs to be replaced by something else – I don’t think it is fixable with the existing Security Council structure.  Something without single-country vetoes, but something that somehow prevents mob rule and punching down.

      We’ll see!

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    10. 10.

      Gin & Tonic

      March 19, 2023 at 12:25 pm

      @WaterGirl: No more to say. This is wishful thinking, like me thinking I’ll wake up tomorrow and find a new Ferrari in my driveway.

      Reply
    11. 11.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 12:26 pm

      @WaterGirl: Not G&T but, for one thing, Russia would simply veto any changes that limited its role.

      Reply
    12. 12.

      Chief Oshkosh

      March 19, 2023 at 12:28 pm

      I’ve always thought that a world with the UN is better than a world without it, but this has me re-thinking the entire enterprise. One of my concerns is that simply having anything like the current UN prevents the world from having a better world organization. Is the UN a net negative at this point?

      Reply
    13. 13.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 12:29 pm

      @Gin & Tonic: So you think there is a chance waking up and finding a vintage Ferrari?  Poor naive boy.

      Reply
    14. 14.

      Baud

      March 19, 2023 at 12:30 pm

      @West of the Rockies:

      the smug essay by Thomas Chatterton Williams

       
      Hard to believe someone named Thomas Chatterton Williams would write a smug essay.

      Reply
    15. 15.

      Anonymous At Work

      March 19, 2023 at 12:30 pm

      Plausible mechanistically, but dubious that a room full of diplomats would decide to strip a member state, one that claims a seat on the Security Council, of membership.  “It could happen to me” would be the refrain from nations that might want to stand up, someday and for various reasons, to either the US or China.
      The UN, by design, cannot change the status quo, only enforce it through ponderous efforts.  Glacier-like speed but glacier-like resilience to change went hand-in-hand.  Killing a glacier took the entire world acting in concert for over 50+ years to gradually raise the temperature enough.

      Now, should it happen?  Absolutely.  What happens after that is the problem that everyone would think about and vote based upon, though.  Most likely, Syria or Iran raises the question of Israel to get the US to back off, Taiwan and China go at it, etc.

      Reply
    16. 16.

      zhena gogolia

      March 19, 2023 at 12:30 pm

      2liberal said it at #1.

      Reply
    17. 17.

      JML

      March 19, 2023 at 12:40 pm

      There’s a lot of ivory tower BS in this and a lot less realpolitik than you need. I can’t blame Kyslytsya for taking this kind of a shot, but he’s obviously a seriously biased actor when it comes to determining whether or not Russia can get booted this way and has ulterior motives regarding the impact on the UN as a whole.

      Technicalities only work in international law when everyone is on board with them as the solution to a problem. That’s not the case here.

      I have zero interest in supporting Russia, but while this potentially helps fix some issues with them on the Security Council, it also adds an additional level of chaos and pulls out even more influence levers and constrains on Russia. Beyond that, Another Scott has it nailed: China wouldn’t back this in a million years.

      Reply
    18. 18.

      Anonymous At Work

      March 19, 2023 at 12:41 pm

      @Another Scott: Single-country vetoes will be the sticking point for places like the US, China, and India to join any successor to the UN.  Israel, South China Sea expansion, and Kashmir would be the primary reasons.  They aren’t great reasons in the overall scheme of world events, mind you, but represent big, immediate concerns that would keep three of the largest and most influential nations away.

      Reply
    19. 19.

      Scout211

      March 19, 2023 at 12:42 pm

      I confess I don’t understand all of this at the UN, but I have a question.  When the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq during the Bush II administration, did the UN Security Council try to remove the US from the monthly rotation of President?

      Reply
    20. 20.

      WaterGirl

      March 19, 2023 at 12:44 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: Catch-22.

      Reply
    21. 21.

      UncleEbeneezer

      March 19, 2023 at 12:46 pm

      With a week of surgery recovery and a trip to Seattle, both coming soon, I’m looking for a good book to read.  Two main contenders are Tulip From My Heart (which would be perfect for our trip to Skagit Valley), and Mothers of Conservatism: Women and the Post-War Right, which would continue my learning about the organizing of white women in the 50’s and goes into more detail about the Pasadena Affair (which I’m still trying to learn more about).  Both look great and are available at Octavia’s Bookshelf, the new BIPOC & Women-centered bookstore that recently opened in Pasadena as a tribute to Octavia Butler, that I’m dying to check out and support, but DAMN both are $35+!!  Both are niche books so I’m not surprised they are a little more pricey than mainstream/best-sellers, but I’m surprised they are THAT expensive.  Would love to buy both but not at those prices :(

      Anyways, if anyone has read them, let me know what you thought.

      Reply
    22. 22.

      RaflW

      March 19, 2023 at 12:48 pm

      Can’t find it right now, but at least one Republican in the House tweeted yesterday that he’s working on a way to kick RU out of the Security Council (not sure what leverage he has?).

      In googling this morning to see if I can relocate the tweet, I came across this (not linking – its Fox) from Feb of ’22. I post this excerpt to keep an eye on how far into looney land Marsha Blackburn goes. Just one year ago she knew Russia was committing war crimes. But as the GOP worm turns to opposing war as leverage against Biden, she’s gonna forget all this.

      Several high-profile Republicans are introducing a joint resolution calling on President Biden to pressure the United Nations to strip Russia of its permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, which gives Moscow a veto over the council’s resolutions.

      The Republican effort, which Tennessee Sen. Marsha Blackburn and New York Rep. Claudia Tenney are spearheading, comes after Russia vetoed a UN Security Council resolution condemning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

      “The Russian government is actively killing innocent Ukrainian civilians, committing war crimes, and invading sovereign territory unprovoked. At the same time, Moscow is driving decisions in the United Nations through its role as a Permanent Member of the Security Council. Russia must be exiled from the international community,” Blackburn said in a statement.

      Reply
    23. 23.

      FelonyGovt

      March 19, 2023 at 12:51 pm

      As a kid growing up in NYC, I really admired the UN and what it stood for, even in the midst of the Cold War. I’m beginning to think it’s an outdated institution that should be replaced by regional and strategic alliances like the European Union and NATO (which of course have their own issues…)

      Reply
    24. 24.

      Scout211

      March 19, 2023 at 12:52 pm

      @Scout211: Answered my own question. No, they approved the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. Link

      And also approved the invasion of Iraq.  Link

      Reply
    25. 25.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 12:53 pm

      @Scout211: Not really, but there is a difference between what the US and coalition forces did and what Russia is doing.  The action in Afghanistan was directly related to 9/11.  It was tacitly okayed by UN Security Resolution 1386.  The Iraq invasion was more problematic, but was still seen as a response, albeit a wrong-headed one, to an attack on the US.  OTOH, Russia is conducting an unprovoked invasion of another country with the intention of wiping out its existence and absorbing it.

      Reply
    26. 26.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 12:59 pm

      @WaterGirl: That’s some catch.

      Reply
    27. 27.

      mvr

      March 19, 2023 at 1:03 pm

      @UncleEbeneezer: ABE books (abebooks.com) has the second book for $25, and Biblio.com has Tulalip for $4. (Alibris has it for $8).

      Reply
    28. 28.

      Scout211

      March 19, 2023 at 1:04 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: Thank you for your explanation. I did just read the UN resolutions and in retrospect, the Bush administration sold both invasions as important steps in the war against global terrorism. Very different than Russia’s attempt to justify invading Ukraine.

      The speeches are coming back to me now*.  With all those made-up facts.  I was aware of all of this at the time, but I confess the Bush years and his wars are not pleasant to recall. I hope we don’t forget, though. 

      ETA*Colin Powell’s, especially.

      Reply
    29. 29.

      Baud

      March 19, 2023 at 1:05 pm

      @Scout211:

      Yeah, the Iraq invasion was bullshit, but no one thought Saddam was a good guy or that Iraq was a democracy.

      Reply
    30. 30.

      UncleEbeneezer

      March 19, 2023 at 1:12 pm

      @mvr: Oh thanks!  When I googled all I was seeing was the bigger sellers.

      Reply
    31. 31.

      Dangerman

      March 19, 2023 at 1:15 pm

      @Gin & Tonic: That’s my nightmare, actually. I’d wake up to a new Ferrari but couldn’t drive it without lopping off part of some appendages. On the flip side, I could possibly some willing single woman to drive it. Hmmm, this dream is quickly evolving.

      As for Russia and Security Council, well, it’s fucked, but it is what it is. Personally, if I were President, if they want to splash one of ours, I’d splash one of theirs (manned, if necessary). No, no one wants WWIII, but we are sure as shit headed that direction without dome “behavior modification”.

      Reply
    32. 32.

      Dangerman

      March 19, 2023 at 1:15 pm

      Duplicate Deleted

      Reply
    33. 33.

      RaflW

      March 19, 2023 at 1:15 pm

      @West of the Rockies: posted without further comment

      @DougJBalloon Jan 28
      If Black American’s hadn’t complained about police violence so much, I wouldn’t have had to move to a chateau in France to escape.

      by Thomas Chatterton Williams

      Reply
    34. 34.

      Scout211

      March 19, 2023 at 1:17 pm

      And re: the Iraq war:

       The senate will mark the 20th year anniversaryof the U.S. invasion of Iraq this week by voting to repeal the outdated authorization of military force that greenlighted the war, a bipartisan effort to formally conclude a badly misguided conflict America is still paying for today.


      Nineteen Senate Republicans voted with Democrats to advanc its repeal on Thursday, a largely symbolic move that advocates say is designed to reassert Congress’s authority to declare war. Yet it leaves untouched the broad 2001 authorization for use of military force (AUMF) that every presidential administration since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks has used to wage war across the globe.

       

      Reply
    35. 35.

      Baud

      March 19, 2023 at 1:19 pm

      @Scout211:

      It’s something.

      Reply
    36. 36.

      FelonyGovt

      March 19, 2023 at 1:20 pm

      @Scout211: This is a very poignant piece by an Iraqi-American woman who writes for the LA Times, hoping that people won’t forget the 20th anniversary of the Iraq War, its impact on Iraqis, and lessons to be (hopefully) learned (not holding my breath though).

      Reply
    37. 37.

      Another Scott

      March 19, 2023 at 1:25 pm

      @Dangerman:

      I’m reminded of the Su-24 shootdown by Turkey in 2015:

      A Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter jet shot down a Russian Sukhoi Su-24M attack aircraft near the Syria–Turkey border on 24 November 2015.[1][2] According to Turkey, the aircraft was fired upon while in Turkish airspace because it violated the border up to a depth of 2.19 kilometres (1.36 miles) for about 17 seconds after being warned to change its heading ten times over a period of five minutes before entering the airspace.[3][4] The Russia Defence Ministry denied that the aircraft ever left Syrian airspace, claiming that their satellite data showed that the Sukhoi was about 1,000 metres (1,100 yd) inside Syrian airspace when it was shot down.[5]

      The U.S. State Department said that the U.S. independently confirmed that the aircraft’s flight path violated Turkish territory, and that the Turks gave multiple warnings to the pilot, to which they received no response and released audio recordings of the warnings they had broadcast.[6][7] Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan pointed out that Turkey had the right to defend its airspace.[8]

      One’s own airspace is a bit different, of course, but VVP didn’t start WWIII over Turkey shooting down one of his planes.

      I suspect, though, that like the 2001 Hainan Island incident with China and the US Navy EP-3E there won’t be any escalation in the near term. Everyone knows that this stuff is the cost of doing business…

      My $0.02.

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    38. 38.

      cain

      March 19, 2023 at 1:26 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: ​
       
      It’s also against brown people.

      Reply
    39. 39.

      mvr

      March 19, 2023 at 1:29 pm

      @UncleEbeneezer: ​
       I can send you specific links but they were long to put in a blog-response, so I figured just naming the sites would let you find them.

      Reply
    40. 40.

      WaterGirl

      March 19, 2023 at 1:34 pm

      I don’t recall which body was able to stop us from closing Guantanamo Bay.  Could we do that now, with the Senate?

      Reply
    41. 41.

      Sure Lurkalot

      March 19, 2023 at 1:34 pm

      @RaflW: And apparently Mr. Chatterton would like to work until he drops so we are sure to be exposed to his drivel forevs:

      I never understood the French desire to retire as soon as possible and then have a decade or 2 or 3 to do what you really want on a pension. I always thought work was foundational to sense of self and I’d do it til the end. Now I just hope AI won’t take that future away.

      In his defense, he did admit that not everyone has cush writing jobs and maybe some manual laborers might not feel the same way. Many pointed out to him that there are a myriad of activities that are foundational to a sense of self other than paid work.

      Reply
    42. 42.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 1:38 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot: No one is trying to stop him from working for as long as he wants and as long someone is willing to pay him (it is the second part that I find astonishing).

      Reply
    43. 43.

      Matt McIrvin

      March 19, 2023 at 1:41 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot: Conflating “work” with “whatever people will pay you to do on an open market” is typical of the genre.

      A lot of what my parents get up to as retirees is basically pro bono work of various types.

      Reply
    44. 44.

      patrick II

      March 19, 2023 at 1:42 pm

      @Scout211:

      The U.S. of 22 years ago was in a position of power and leadership that we will never be in again.  We could have set an example of leading a world by rule of law, as we say we are trying to do now.  Instead, we created a world where “we are an empire now and we create our own reality”. Bush couldn’t get many of our traditional allies to support his Iraq war — Rumsfeld called them old Europe, old in the sense that they did not go along with America’s idea of itself as the only empire and maker of reality.  So people learned that we could make our own reality to create war and Iran and North Korea started their nuclear programs, and Putin had an easy lesson reinforced for him — there is no law, only the reality you are fearless and powerful enough to create.

      So, remember as Biden fights the good fight and tries to re-establish a world where laws mean at least a little — don’t steal kids for a start — we have lately had two of our own presidents and their associates, who don’t believe in law all, only power, and the Iraq war was both a proof of and an example for those countries watching of how one can or must act in a lawless world.

      We have created our own reality alright — one of skepticism and unintended consequences.

      Reply
    45. 45.

      StringOnAStick

      March 19, 2023 at 1:43 pm

      We retired just over 2 years ago our lives are wonderful, incredibly fulfilling, tons of fun, etc.  If this mope wants to pass on that, his choice but I don’t want him in charge of my choices.  I think he’ll find he’s riding a minority opinion there.

      Reply
    46. 46.

      StringOnAStick

      March 19, 2023 at 1:45 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: The guy must be a Calvinist.

      Reply
    47. 47.

      Kirk

      March 19, 2023 at 1:45 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot:

      I never understood the French desire to retire as soon as possible and then have a decade or 2 or 3 to do what you really want on a pension. I always thought work was foundational to sense of self and I’d do it til the end. Now I just hope AI won’t take that future away.

      I’m saddened that he doesn’t see “do what you really want” as work. A number of us have brass ring “work”, things that time and effort and passion, that are set aside because we have to keep a roof overhead and food on the table, and maybe a little set aside for when we have to see the doctor about the little cough that won’t go away.

      Reply
    48. 48.

      UncleEbeneezer

      March 19, 2023 at 1:45 pm

      @mvr: No need.  Already ordered both books from Allibris ;)

      Reply
    49. 49.

      sdhays

      March 19, 2023 at 1:46 pm

      @Gin & Tonic: “Hello, towing company? Some fucker parked his goddamn Ferrari in my fucking driveway. Can you please send someone around to tow that fucking monument to obscene wealth away so that I can go to the store? Thanks.”

      Reply
    50. 50.

      StringOnAStick

      March 19, 2023 at 1:47 pm

      @patrick II: Wise assessment there.

      Reply
    51. 51.

      Baud

      March 19, 2023 at 1:52 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot:

      I have a feeling I’d be more interested in what an AI has to say.

      Reply
    52. 52.

      Geminid

      March 19, 2023 at 1:52 pm

      @WaterGirl: I’ve been doing more research on your new Representative, Nikki Budzinski, and I continue to be impressed. She is one of the few freshman Democrats who had never held public office before (unless you count service as a Senator in the University of Illinois student government). However, Budzinski is a very experienced political operative, using “operative” in a good sense.

      Besides her other work, as a senior member of  Governor Pritzger’s staff Nikki Budzinski was instrumental in steering the $15 minimum wage through the Illinois legislature. Former Governor Jim Edgar (R) says he was very impressed by Budzinski’s skill in this matter.

      And she has a French Bulldog named Lulu.

      Reply
    53. 53.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 1:55 pm

      @Geminid: ​And she has a French Bulldog named Lulu.

      Bury the lede much?

      Reply
    54. 54.

      Roberto el oso

      March 19, 2023 at 1:58 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot: I suspect that Mr Chatterton’s typical ‘work day’ might look rather leisurely to the average French retiree.

      Reply
    55. 55.

      raven

      March 19, 2023 at 1:59 pm

      @patrick II: That happened way before Iraq.

      Reply
    56. 56.

      Dorothy A. Winsor

      March 19, 2023 at 1:59 pm

      @Kirk: Freud said that what people need to be happy is love and work, and I think he was right about that. But “work” doesn’t necessarily mean labor done for pay. It means some project or task that absorbs you and give you purpose. It can be raising your kids, gardening, knitting, painting, traveling, writing, bridge, whatever. This guy can’t think of something he wants to do like that, which is sad.

      Reply
    57. 57.

      Geminid

      March 19, 2023 at 2:00 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: I have to tread lightly here. Ms. Watergirl had a lot of separation anxiety when she lost her longtime Congressman, Rodney “F…” Davis.

      Reply
    58. 58.

      RaflW

      March 19, 2023 at 2:00 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot:  “I’m a clueless person who has been uninterested in the daily lives of people I want to toil longer, but now I grudgingly see it could happen” is just classic.

      I feel like the anti-elitism coursing thru much of American politics isn’t so wrong, as much as grossly misdirected.

      Reply
    59. 59.

      Betty Cracker

      March 19, 2023 at 2:07 pm

      @Sure Lurkalot: He’s right to fear AI. The output from a Chatterbot that collated crap from the internet and presented it in column form would be indistinguishable from his work.

      Reply
    60. 60.

      Another Scott

      March 19, 2023 at 2:16 pm

      @patrick II: Not to nit-pick, but I think you’re minimizing the agency of other countries, here.

      E.g.  1) One of the big histories of VVP that we’ve talked about here recently said that he was pissed off that W didn’t listen to him when he said not to invade Iraq.  So, that somehow “made” VVP do some of the things he did elsewhere.  2) The Shah had a nuclear program in the 1970s and there were – just as today – concerns about him developing a bomb. 3) The DPRK had a nuclear program in the 1980s.

      Yes, Bush was a disaster. TFG was a disaster. We will be paying for their disasters for decades.

      Yes, the US has a leadership role to play, but mainly as a facilitator and serving as a decent example. The days of the US somehow being the world’s kindly grandpa that tells everyone how to act, or somehow easily imposing its will on other countries is (mostly) long gone. For good reasons.

      History has shown us that no inducements and examples and free power plants and free oil and free food and and all the rest were going to deter the Kims from getting their Precious because they feel that’s the only way the regime will survive (via threatening the US and the ROK unless we let him win).

      tl;dr – Other countries have interests that often are not easily affected by our actions.

      My $0.02.

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    61. 61.

      UncleEbeneezer

      March 19, 2023 at 2:17 pm

      Pro-Moscow Twitter accounts tried to steer America’s online conversation about last month’s train derailment in Ohio. The accounts posted misleading claims and anti-U.S. propaganda designed to spread fear about the toxic spill and mock the U.S. response.

      Reply
    62. 62.

      Another Scott

      March 19, 2023 at 2:20 pm

      @Betty Cracker: +1

      My immediate thought on reading the excerpts in this thread was “this has to be a chatbot, right??”.

      I’m happy to say that I have no interest in finding the answer to that question.

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    63. 63.

      Ella in New Mexico

      March 19, 2023 at 2:20 pm

      @Baud:

      Hard to believe someone named Thomas Chatterton Williams would write a smug essay.

      It’s almost like he was genetically engineered and named by his creators to do just that.

      Or that “he’s” just a ChatGPT product for command “write a story written by a stuck up wealthy privileged white guy about wokeness”

      Reply
    64. 64.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 2:24 pm

      @Ella in New Mexico: ​
        FWIW he is biracial. And now lives in Paris with his French wife.

      Reply
    65. 65.

      Another Scott

      March 19, 2023 at 2:24 pm

      @Ella in New Mexico:

      Obligatory, …

      Jacob Rees-Mogg in #traceybreaksthenews and #traceyullmanshow @bbccomedy pic.twitter.com/C7sKOjlLGl— Tracey Ullman Fans (@TraceyFans) September 6, 2019

      (She’s a genius.)

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    66. 66.

      RaflW

      March 19, 2023 at 2:28 pm

      @Dorothy A. Winsor: I retired early. But I serve unpaid on community boards, church and denomination committees and (ugh) my condo association board. I’d go a bit batty if I didn’t have these things to keep me engaged.

      Reply
    67. 67.

      WaterGirl

      March 19, 2023 at 2:30 pm

      @Geminid: You’ll probably want to lead with the French Bulldog in your write-up! :-)

      I’m looking forward to starting up the Holy Shit, We Have a Lot of Great Dems! series

      edit: written before seeing the comment from Omnes!

      Reply
    68. 68.

      Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

      March 19, 2023 at 2:31 pm

      @Another Scott:

      What is the likelihood that Russian nukes actually work, and aren’t simply an amalgamation of jukebox parts strapped to a rocket shell powered by old outdated Estes “light ‘em up and play rocketeer” cartridges?

      Reply
    69. 69.

      Geminid

      March 19, 2023 at 2:31 pm

      It’s easy to down-rate the UN because a lot of its work is preventing problems. The war in Ukraine has strained food supplies worldwide, but this would be much worse were it not for the Black Sea grain deal between the UN, Turkiye, Ukraine and Russia. The agreement protects Ukraine’s grain exports, and was renewed again yesterday.

      In another area, Iran’s accumulation of uranium enriched to 60% U-235 was cause for alarm even before inspectors found evidence some had been enriched to near bomb grade. Last month the UN’s Director-General of the IAEA, Raphael Grossi made an urgent trip to Tehran and persuaded Iranian officials to restore curtailed inspections and monitoring. This did not solve the problem of Iran’s nuclear program, but it could mean we won’t have a second major war to deal with this year.

      Reply
    70. 70.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 2:32 pm

      @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Is that a bet you want to make?

      Reply
    71. 71.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 2:34 pm

      @Geminid: Like I said above, the best work that UN does is done by its specialist agencies.

      Reply
    72. 72.

      brantl

      March 19, 2023 at 2:36 pm

      @Scout211:  Nope, because Darth Cheney was lying his ass off, about how they had attacked on 911, which while true of Al Quaeda in Afghanistan, it was complete horseshit about Iraq.

      Reply
    73. 73.

      West of the Rockies

      March 19, 2023 at 2:37 pm

      @Ella in New Mexico:

      Never mind.  OO already addressed it.

      Reply
    74. 74.

      trollhattan

      March 19, 2023 at 2:38 pm

      @West of the Rockies: Rocking the name “Chatterton” assured you’ll never be taken seriously. Also probably gets your ass kicked when a kid, just because.

      “When I grow up I want to be William F. Buckley” said no kid, ever.

      Fun fact: F is for Frank which obviously, a wannabe blue blood Yankee needs to keep to himself. If a Frederick, he would have demanded everybody use his full middle name when addressing him.

      Reply
    75. 75.

      Baud

      March 19, 2023 at 2:38 pm

      @Geminid:

      Her name was Lulu
      She was a bulldog
      Budzinski was her mom and she won the Democratic nom.

      Reply
    76. 76.

      trollhattan

      March 19, 2023 at 2:39 pm

      @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: If only one in ten works it just means they will launch ten times as many as they need.

      Reply
    77. 77.

      Baud

      March 19, 2023 at 2:40 pm

      @Dorothy A. Winsor:

      Freud said that what people need to be happy is love and work, and I think he was right about that. But “work” doesn’t necessarily mean labor done for pay. It means some project or task that absorbs you and give you purpose

      Like blog commenting.

      Reply
    78. 78.

      trollhattan

      March 19, 2023 at 2:43 pm

      @Another Scott: One Tracey deserves a second. At home with the Murdochs.

      Reply
    79. 79.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 2:43 pm

      @Dorothy A. Winsor: Oddly enough, the Puritans who settled New England would agree.

      Reply
    80. 80.

      lowtechcyclist

      March 19, 2023 at 2:47 pm

      @Matt McIrvin:

      @Sure Lurkalot: Conflating “work” with “whatever people will pay you to do on an open market” is typical of the genre.

      I think that’s a reasonable conflation in most circumstances. For instance, my career for the past quarter-century has been intellectually challenging and stimulating, and overall quite enjoyable on the scale of work.  But I’ll walk away from it without any regrets in December, because on the scale of what I’d do for free, it’s not even there.

      A lot of what my parents get up to as retirees is basically pro bono work of various types.

      So their pro bono work ranks highly enough on the scale of what they’d do for free that they’re doing it.  That’s good.  I already have some activities like that, and I’m sure I will find more in the new year.

      Reply
    81. 81.

      Geminid

      March 19, 2023 at 2:55 pm

      @UncleEbeneezer: That East Palestine propaganda went everywhere. I ran into it one evening when I was checking out the Twitter account of an Iranian military tech commentator. Right in the middle of his discussion of whether Iran’s low-band radar could detect Israel’s stealthy F-35s, he dropped in a retweet of anti-vaccer Scott Peters sounding the alarm about the East Palestine trainwreck: “What’s going on in East Palestine?” etc.

      And that dummy Ro Khanna also retweeted Peters. Khanna caught a lot of shit for it, too. Which was good to see.

      Reply
    82. 82.

      lowtechcyclist

      March 19, 2023 at 2:55 pm

      @Dorothy A. Winsor:

      This guy can’t think of something he wants to do like that, which is sad.

      I think he does, it’s just that in his fairly exceptional case, he’s getting paid well to do it.  We all have avocations, but few of us are in a position to make a living from them.

      He admits that a manual laborer might not want to define himself in terms of his paid labor. His blind spot is that’s true for most of us as well, even if our jobs are much more enjoyable than that.

      Reply
    83. 83.

      James E Powell

      March 19, 2023 at 3:05 pm

      @FelonyGovt:

      Definitely do not hold your breath. No more than a handful of Americans care about the people killed or the damage done in Iraq or anywhere else. My whole life, every attempt to even discuss it ends up with some variation of “Why do you hate Our Brave Troops?”

      Reply
    84. 84.

      patrick II

      March 19, 2023 at 3:06 pm

      @Another Scott:

      The days of the US somehow being the world’s kindly grandpa that tells everyone how to act, or somehow easily imposing its will on other countries is (mostly) long gone.

      That was always going to happen, and the point was for the short while we were in that position, how were we going to act, as an example of a country that disregards all law when there is opportunity, or one that at least tries to build a world where there is law and attempts to act within those boundaries.

      As for your examples of bad people and things will always happen — yes they will, and the answer to that is to build a world community where we can be trusted when we have the hammer because laws only work where there is trust.
      We are fighting a justifiable war right now because Putin has broken laws, treaties, and, well O.K., killing white people in Europe. And Biden is standing up for law and trust in the U.S.
      As you point out, there will always be bad guys, and the world is complex and we will always be breaking some law somewhere. But the goal should be to act in a trustworty and predictable manner and that can only be done by doing the work ahead of time by creating understanding of order by law. There needs to be some sense of right and wrong or a local culture will not stand, and neither will a world one.

      Bottom line, we haven’t always acted with decency, and we should and hope that it sets an example that builds trust and from that reliable laws and treaties and from that, putting the bad guys on the other side of the law and us on the right side. And that everyone understands who is on what side and why.

      Reply
    85. 85.

      Suzanne

      March 19, 2023 at 3:12 pm

      @Dorothy A. Winsor: Another theory indicates that the three psychological needs innate to humans are autonomy, competence, and relatedness. All of which can be achieved without paid work. Hell, sometimes paid work interferes with those needs.

      Reply
    86. 86.

      Ruckus

      March 19, 2023 at 3:19 pm

      @StringOnAStick:

      This.

      I retired a year and a half ago, at 72 yrs old and I am enjoying doing what I want, when I want, or nothing at all. It is energizing having actual time, even as one gets closer to the clock blowing up – no more time… but having people want to take that away? NO. I put in 60 yrs of work, I and at least most everyone else who has done similar deserves the rest and far less effort required. This concept that one has to be earning their keep till they drop is bullshit.

      Reply
    87. 87.

      Tony G

      March 19, 2023 at 3:19 pm

      @West of the Rockies: I just can’t believe that “Thomas Chatterton Williams” is actually the name of a real human being — and that the man in question doesn’t just refer to himself as “Tom Williams”.  It just sounds like the name of a fictional character representing a snobbish WASP, like “Thurston Howell the Third”.

      Reply
    88. 88.

      cliosfanboy

      March 19, 2023 at 3:20 pm

      1. @Geminid: who is Ro Khanna?
      Reply
    89. 89.

      Tony G

      March 19, 2023 at 3:21 pm

      @Ruckus: The Wrong People being forced to work until they drop dead has been the dream of the “conservative movement” since the 19th century.  (The Right People, of course, can start living a life of leisure in their twenties.)

      Reply
    90. 90.

      WaterGirl

      March 19, 2023 at 3:27 pm

      @Geminid: My Unseat Rodney (Fucking) Davis magnet is still on my car.

      Seeing it is kind of like remembering that Breitbart is still dead. :-)

      Reply
    91. 91.

      Geminid

      March 19, 2023 at 3:35 pm

      @Baud: Now I can’t refrain inflicting- I mean, repeating- my version of that Manilow song. It’s about the retired Army staff sergeant who tricked the Venezuelan migrants into being flown to Martha’s Vinyard:

      Her name was Perla.

      She was a squirrel-a.

      She told so many lies,

      it made me want hurl-a.

      Perla Huerta seems to have disappeared from sight since her name and human trafficking role were uncovered last October. She is the subject of a criminal investigation by the Bexar County Sheriff and a lawsuit by the migrants, so maybe she’ll turn up before too long.

      Or maybe Perla’s using skills she learned in the Special Forces to hide out in the Everglades while she creates a new identity.

      Reply
    92. 92.

      StringOnAStick

      March 19, 2023 at 3:43 pm

      @Ruckus: My 91 yo father would still be working if he could, and his only purpose in life is work; always was, always will be.  No hobbies, no interest in his kids/grandkids that work wasn’t the priority over.  Now he’s facing his mortality and is scared to death, but coming to any kind of an epiphany at this late date about how he let his connections to people be a distant second would be so overwhelmingly sad that I guess its best he not get to that.

      I read Chatter-dude’s quote about the French to my husband, who laughed and said “there’s a guy who has no hobbies or interests in anything”.

      Reply
    93. 93.

      Geminid

      March 19, 2023 at 3:52 pm

      @cliosfanboy: I should have identified Ro Khanna better. He’s a Democratic Representative with a district south of San Francisco, in the “Silicon Valley.” Khanna was something of an insurgent when he beat incumbent Mike Honda in 2016.

      I call Khanna a dummy not because he lacks intelligence but because he often says what I think of as dumb stuff.

      Reply
    94. 94.

      Ruckus

      March 19, 2023 at 4:06 pm

      @Tony G:

      I’m going to say it.

      He sounds like a pompous, arrogant asshole.

      Chatterton? I mean I get it’s a family name, so is my middle name. But I only use my middle name when I have to give my full name. Say at the VA, where they use last name and last 4 of your SS number as your id when you check in, and there is another vet with the same first and last name but different last 4 digits of our SS numbers. Every single time I check in I have to remind them. And yes I’ve told this story before, I am the II, and there was a family in the next town and the father and son had the same first, middle initial and last name as my dad and I and the son was also the II.

      @Tony G:

      One of the reasons I say fuck conservative assholes. They want a world that puts them on a pedestal for being conservative assholes and they think that makes them better humans. It doesn’t, not in any way, shape or form. And it hasn’t for all of my over 7 decades.

      Reply
    95. 95.

      evodevo

      March 19, 2023 at 4:16 pm

      @Another Scott: I LOVE Tracy lol – all her stuff is on the spot…

      Reply
    96. 96.

      Mr. Bemused Senior

      March 19, 2023 at 4:23 pm

      @StringOnAStick:

      I have been very lucky, I enjoy my work, I’m good at it, and it pays well. Some of my happiest memories are working together on projects with Bemused Senior (Mrs.). She was a brilliant designer, better than I am.

      I’m still working, liking the job and the people I work with, but joy is something I’m not feeling much these days. One thing this has taught me is the value and importance of relationships with other people. @StringOnAStick perhaps it’s too late for your father; I send you and him my condolences.

      I don’t feel ready to retire, though I have cut back a bit on the hours I spend at work. What to do next hasn’t occurred to me yet.

      Reply
    97. 97.

      evodevo

      March 19, 2023 at 4:23 pm

      @James E Powell: Yep…my  sister – married to career Army officer –  was all “but, but we built them a couple hospitals!!” as if that made up for killing thousands, destroying their infrastructure, their economy and introducing political chaos.  Sure, Saddam was bad, but destabilizing the ME and allowing ISIS to establish itself wasn’t exactly a solution…Bush didn’t have a clue, and Cheney didn’t care, as long as Halliburton got the oil contracts…

      Reply
    98. 98.

      Ruckus

      March 19, 2023 at 4:25 pm

      @StringOnAStick:

      I take more after my dad. He retired, mainly because I wouldn’t let him work any more because what we did had a definite level of danger to it, you had to understand that and pay attention or it could lose you body parts. And lose them faster than you can imagine. I have a scar on my thumb from almost cutting it off, the only thing that kept it on was running into the bone with a razor knife, with a brand new blade. I cut the artery, 70% of the tendon and the nerve. Very nice doctor sewed it all back up and it works fine. The entire event cutting it took about 3-4 seconds. And yes it was an accident. Required 12-15 stitches and a cast for 6 weeks. Good times. My dad ended up having Alzheimers. He lived for about 15 yrs in homes before he passed. He was just 10 yrs older than I am now when he went.

      I didn’t think I wanted to retire. Until I got there. And then I knew that I didn’t want to work any longer. It is a transition, retirement. Not near as difficult as I thought it might be. I think it took me 2 days to get from worker to retiree.

      Reply
    99. 99.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 4:26 pm

      @Ruckus: In this case, Chatterton isn’t a family name.  He is named after the poet.

      Reply
    100. 100.

      Bill Arnold

      March 19, 2023 at 4:27 pm

      @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:

      What is the likelihood that Russian nukes actually work, and aren’t simply an amalgamation of jukebox parts strapped to a rocket shell powered by old outdated Estes “light ‘em up and play rocketeer” cartridges?

      Close to zero. They occasionally are observed successfully testing long range nuclear-capable rockets. (As are the USA. Both with occasional failures.) And the nuclear weapons are crown jewels in Russian military, with extra resources and procedures. And even just the primary (i.e. a “fizzle” of a thermonuclear detonation) would fuck up a city.

      ETA there might be technical problems with nuclear forces that aren’t recognized by the controlling countries. But simple incompetence/corruption is unlikely.

      Reply
    101. 101.

      prostratedragon

      March 19, 2023 at 4:36 pm

      @Baud: As I half suspected from the name, he is Black, or at least his father is, which as these things usually go …

      Reply
    102. 102.

      Ruckus

      March 19, 2023 at 4:49 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus:

      I’d have more/some respect for him if it was a family name.

      Reply
    103. 103.

      Another Scott

      March 19, 2023 at 5:51 pm

      @Another Scott:

      Relatedly, …

      The Bayraktar TB2 is soon set to be equipped with SUNGUR MANPADS, which would make for an interesting outcome if such an incident is to happen again. https://t.co/szqhGvMZdo

      — Oryx (@oryxspioenkop) March 19, 2023

      Interesting…

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    104. 104.

      J R in WV

      March 19, 2023 at 6:02 pm

      @Gin & Tonic: ​

      LIkE “me thinking I’ll wake up tomorrow and find a new Ferrari in my driveway.”

      Dear Sir:What physical address would you prefer your brand new low miles Ferrari to be delivered to? I have come into a small fortune after shorting several bank stocks, and would like to reward you for your wise counsel over the years.
      Sincerely,VV Potemkin,Founder, USSR. . ;~)​

      Reply
    105. 105.

      Steve in the ATL

      March 19, 2023 at 6:22 pm

      @Baud:

      Acronym Friday

      Limerick Saturday

      Barry Manilow Sunday

       

      trifecta!

      Reply
    106. 106.

      Omnes Omnibus

      March 19, 2023 at 6:24 pm

      @Steve in the ATL: ​
        ::shutter::

      Reply
    107. 107.

      Steve in the ATL

      March 19, 2023 at 6:29 pm

      @Suzanne: competence is required?  No wonder I’m miserable!

      Reply
    108. 108.

      J R in WV

      March 19, 2023 at 6:37 pm

      @lowtechcyclist:

      We all have avocations, but few of us are in a position to make a living from them.

      I have several friend and neighbors who have made a good living from construction work, both large scale (bridges and highways) and small scale (pretty log cabin homes for friends). They would love to do that work forever, as it is worthwhile and rewarding.

      Unfortunately, it also damages your body fairly quickly. Ted’s* shoulder joints are so damaged he can’t lift his empty hands above his armpits. Fred’s* knees are such that he can barely walk up a small grade to his home. Etc.

      Mr. Chatterton will probably never have that kind of issue…

      My shoulders have been replaced, and my surgeon last appointment told me to pick a joint (hips, knees) to replace, my choice. Unfortunately, while I can afford that work, other more serious health issues prohibit having the repairs done.

      One of my strenuous hobbies has been construction, another, collecting mineral specimens, involved shovels, sledge hammers and chisels etc.

      * not their real names…​

      Reply
    109. 109.

      AWOL

      March 19, 2023 at 7:34 pm

      @Tony G: He’s the bastard lovechild of Thomas Sowell and John McWhorter, conceived in a separate-but-equal CPAC toilet.

      Reply

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