If you are Donald Trump, SHIT, meet FAN.
This should be a fun meeting 😈 https://t.co/QnCCUQW2ex
— Just Jack (@7Veritas4) May 24, 2023
Festivus for the rest of us?
UPDATE: We have picked a name for the meeting. pic.twitter.com/MrmdyJC4Ba
— Just Jack (@7Veritas4) May 24, 2023
The model of 5 stages of grief really does seem to fit, except that Trump will never get to Acceptance.
He will only get to Reality.
The five stages of coming to terms with a Federal Indictment:
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining (👈🏼 they are here)
4. Depression
5. Acceptance— Just Jack (@7Veritas4) May 24, 2023
NEW: Trump’s legal team seeks a meeting with Attorney General Garland amid indications Jack Smith’s documents probe is nearing indictment stage. https://t.co/ijTmWYjYSb
— Kyle Cheney (@kyledcheney) May 24, 2023
Trump legal team seeks meeting with Garland as documents probe nears conclusion. (Politico)
Lawyers for Donald Trump are seeking a meeting with Attorney General Merrick Garland, the latest indication that special counsel Jack Smith is nearing the indictment phase of his probe of Trump’s handling of classified documents.
Attorneys John Rowley and James Trusty wrote to Garland on Tuesday seeking a meeting at the attorney general’s “earliest convenience.” Trump posted the letter to Truth Social late in the evening.
A Justice Department spokesperson declined to comment.
Open thread.
Omnes Omnibus
That letter was an embarrassment for the lawyers involved. It was obviously dictated nearly word for word by their client. No lawyer should ever sign a document like that.
Maxim
Well, this is hilarious. My schaden freudeth over.
eclare
Morning Joe said this was standard procedure. I have no idea.
rikyrah
Good Morning Everyone 😊😊😊
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: That was my reaction, too, and then I reminded myself that these attorneys knew exactly who Trump was when they went to work for him, so I think they have earned the humiliation that I hope they are feeling
Kind of the legal version of that “Trump is totally fit!” physician letter that he dictated?
danielx
@Omnes Omnibus:
It does not seem to me to be a good idea for any attorney to “demand” anything of the Attorney General. Does seem like a good way to end up on Merrick Garland’s personal shit list.
Low Key Swagger
Any chance he won’t take the meeting? Love to see that.
WaterGirl
@eclare:
Not like this, it isn’t.
Another Scott
@danielx: Demand is Cheney’s word. The letter says “request”.
Garland should send a note that he “has received their letter” and leave it at that. It’s obviously performative BS. As others point out, Smith is independent and Garland has nothing to do with what he’s doing. Having a meeting would be totally inappropriate.
IANAL.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ken
I like my version better.
WaterGirl
@danielx: @Another Scott:
Trump: Apparently pretending that Jack Smith doesn’t exist.
No object permanence – if Trump doesn’t acknowledge him, then he doesn’t exist, right?
danielx
@Another Scott:
You are correct, of course. Reads a lot more like a demand, which is in keeping with the behavior of the orange dipshit who ordered his attorneys to send the letter
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Another Scott: That point about Smith’s independence is a good one. The AG isn’t supposed to interfere. That’s why the AG appointed one.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
I guess it’s mandatory now to mention Hunter Biden in every communication TFG’s lawyers make.
I suppose I’m grateful that “butter emails” is no longer a part of the mandatory language.
@Omnes Omnibus:
What’s that famous letter that was an actual official response to some legal correspondence? “Dear ___, you should be aware that some asshole is writing stupid letters on your letterhead.”
WaterGirl
@Ken: Me, too!
mrmoshpotato
My favorite stage is the Lady Justice Caves In Dump’s Fat Orange Fascist Face.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Substitute a few professional sounding words with similar words selected from a childish I’d, then that letter sounds like every MAGA rally.
MattF
Which circle of Hell is the one where demon-clients demand that their lawyers bring up questions about Hunter Biden? In a letter to the Attorney General…
CaseyL
Teri Kanefield blogs and Mastodon-posts extensively on legal matters, and particularly on Trump-related legal matters.
She has frequently noted that meetings between defense and prosecuting attorneys are entirely at the prosecuting attorneys discretion. Defense attorneys do generally ask for pre-trial or pre-sentencing meetings with the prosecuting attorneys – but they come, as she put it, “hat in hand”: very polite, very much in a “please may we?” mode. Not this angry word salad mode.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
The circle of hell we all inhabit.
patrick II
He doesn’t understand the relationship between law and indictments at all. When he was president he wanted numerous political enemies indicted regardless of the law. Now he is being indicted and he sees it as the same thing, but in reverse. Political enemies are after him, but when it is the other way around (in his mind) it is unfair. He is not saying he did not break the law, that is irrelevant, but that YOU ARE INDICTING ME! AND I CAN’T BELIEVE I AM BEING INDICTED! IT’S NOT FAIR.
It is like when Nick Nolte shot psychopath John Gantz in 48 hours. Gantz, who had shot and killed numerous people earlier in the movie, yells out I CAN’T BELIEVE IT, I’VE BEEN SHOT.
It’s the same thing, but with a real-life psychopath.
oatler
“a feco-ventilatory collision” h/t Thomas Pynchon
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@patrick II: Not just unfair. I’ve seen some quotes where he tosses the word “treason” around. As in, it is treason to sue or indict or even investigate His Holy Lard-ass. That is a scary frame of mind that I suspect a scary number of his cult followers share.
I suppose it’s a logical extension of the rhetoric where people say registering Democrat is treason, and preachers preach from the pulpit that being a Democrat means you’re going to hell.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
The political prosecutions Trump wanted didn’t go anywhere. A smarter person might learn from that experience that prosecutions don’t follow from baseless political investigations.
This suggests no person smarter than Trump exists in his fan base
ETA: There’s no shortage of people who wanted to prosecute Clinton or Biden or probably even Obama. They couldn’t even find the most meager justification.
WaterGirl
@patrick II: YES.
Yutsano
@patrick II:
Fixteth. He’s at heart a mob boss.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I’ll make them an offer I won’t admit they refused…
Another Scott
Popehat weighs in.
Cheers,
Scott.
steppy
@Ken: How about Trump’s infinite loop of grief:
schrodingers_cat
@Yutsano: Nailed it. That’s his self image
OT: Got my Derwent Pastel collection and it is gorgeous.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus:
LMAO TRUFACTS! We all know TFG’s “voice” by now. For fuck’s sake.
Why would any professional work for this schmuck?! You’re not going to get paid.
Amir Khalid
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m mystified that any lawyer would think they needed a client like TFG — doesn’t listen, doesn’t pay, and all too ready to drag you into trouble with him.
Maxim
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
I don’t know that one, but I was reminded of Max Reger’s response (perhaps, research suggests, inspired by the Earl of Sandwich): “I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your [letter] before me. Soon it will be behind me.”
(He was responding to a review, not a letter, but same principle.)
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Amir Khalid: Maybe some lawyers are thrill seekers.
Amir Khalid
@Maxim:
Dear oh dear.
twbrandt
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: You’re thinking of the famous Cleveland Stadium letter.
Suzanne
@Amir Khalid: Remember the doctor who said TFG was “the healthiest person to ever be President” or some shit?
Like, have these people never bought a used car?! They’re so gullible.
Omnes Omnibus
Exactly like that. I am not bothered by the fact that lawyers will work for horrible people. I am bothered by the fact that these lawyers allowed themselves to be this craven. It’s, as I said, embarrassing.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Suzanne: I’ve long distrusted the superlative. Trump vindicates my distrust.
Raoul Paste
@Maxim: It would be a great response, but can you imagine how many pundits would faint dead away?
Hilbertsubspace
@Ken:
6. Dies in prison
7. Cadaver Synod
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod
bbleh
Garland has convened a meeting of his aides and said whoever comes up with the funniest reply gets an extra day off.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@twbrandt: Yes! Thank you.
I like the coda:
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Bumptious
Captain C
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
This one:
The ’70s were a bit of a different time.
WaterGirl
@twbrandt: Thanks for that!
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Republicans did this to themselves. Garland could’ve been on the Supreme Court. Instead he’s running a department that is rigorously prosecuting wingers at a deliberate, appropriate pace.
cain
@Suzanne: I think this is one of those “if we get this guy off, we’ll be rolling in clients later”
prostratedragon
@WaterGirl: Haven’t heard that word in so long I’d forgotten it. Looking at those two entries, I’m amazed that the revival has tzken so long.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@cain: Dewey, Faqem, and Howe’s firm for lost causes.
smith
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Seems to me the GQP gained more from keeping him off the SC than they are losing from having him as AG. At least as AG he has to follow established law, which we’re finding out is apparently irrelevant to the SC.
OverTwistWillie
He believes he is still President. He’s asserting his divine right to rule derives from
GodTrump.The Donald is good, The Donald is great….
Yutsano
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: The arc of Fuck Around is long, but it always leads to the Find Out.
Roger Moore
@Low Key Swagger:
He shouldn’t. The whole point of having a special counsel for this is to shield the investigation from political meddling, which having the AG talk to Trump’s lawyers most certainly would be. If they want to talk to someone about this, they need to talk to Jack Smith, not Merrick Garland, and that’s exactly what AG Garland should tell them.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@smith: Yeah, you’re probably right. Just apropos of nothing I thought I should compliment the thoroughness, diligence, and efficiency of Garland’s justice department.
WaterGirl
@prostratedragon: I never knew that word. But I do now!
narya
I have to admit that one of the things in this timeline that pleases me the most is TFG running into people, systems, and/or processes that simply do not do what he wants. Since the beginning, I’ve had the sense that, in previous settings, he could be enough of a pain in the ass, and he had enough people around him to make enough money from his leavings, that he could do as he pleased and could always find a lawyer to assist. Frankly, if he hadn’t run for President, he could have continued doing that. But now, it’s one Find Out after another, and his tantrums mean fuckall to the people, systems, and processes he’s trying to bully.
J R in WV
Perhaps a short note to the effect that “Your request has been forwarded to the appropriate special prosecutors involved in Mr Trump’s cases for their attention.”
cckids
I’m lucky my children are grown; I don’t have to hear “but it’s not faaaair“! anymore. Because I think I will forever hear it in DT’s whiny-ass voice, and be unreasonably pissed.
Jackie
@WaterGirl: Lawrence O’Donnell last night said this is what defense lawyers do when indictment charges are imminent. 🤞🏻🤞🏻
smith
@Jackie: I know it’s wishing for unicorns and rainbows, but could we at least hope that espionage is one of the charges?
Jackie
For those of us suffering from insomnia… record and watch when ready to sleep!😂
CNN will host a town hall meeting with Nikki Haley on June 4 at 8 p.m. ET.
Scout211
@Another Scott: IANAL, but that was my take, too. This is a letter for his fans and his MAGA cult of followers. In the late night thread, I commented that this letter is Trump letting his followers know that the DOJ is being mean to him and he is demanding to speak with the boss. Never mind that the boss is “biased” against him and works for Dark Brandon and the “deep state,” who are mean to him, too! They’re all mean to him! Sad!
OverTwistWillie
I doubt he consumes sovereign citizen videos on the ‘tubes, yet he ended up on the same square.
smith
@OverTwistWillie: Narcissism plus stupidity will do it every time.
Jeffro
Hasn’t trumpov been calling Jack Smith a “thug” and referenced Smith’s family multiple times in his panicky rage-tweets? But now he wants Merrick Garland to intervene, somehow?
L to the OL
Ruckus
@danielx:
Does seem like a good way to end up on Merrick Garland’s personal shit list.
Seems just a bit late to wish for that. Although I might tend to call it his personal dumbshit list.
Jeffro
Btw speaking of trumpov and his legal team…it’s a complete shit-show over there
Roger Moore
@OverTwistWillie:
This is because the root cause is solipsism, and there’s plenty of that going around. They should be exempt from the rules because they’re the protagonist of the universe and everyone else is a supporting character. If you start from the same premises and use the same logic, you’ll wind up with the same conclusions.
Jackie
@smith: Absolutely! Along with theft of government property for personal financial gain, and, of course obstruction of justice. I’m sure there’s others…
Jeffro
He will call for that too, eventually, unfortunately.
It’s only a question of whether or not he has enough restraint to say something like “America is now officially lost. MAGA, you know what to do.” or just flat-out says, “kill them all”.
Ruckus
@patrick II:
SFB is physically 76 yrs old, which seems strange as he acts more and more every day like he is 4 yrs old. (And I’m dissing normal 4 yr olds saying that…. Maybe I’m giving him too much credit…)
bbleh
@J R in WV: I’d like at least a little bit about how “gravely inappropriate” taking such a meeting would be, for reasons A,B,C, and while “perhaps in other Administrations” such considerations might not have pertained, Biden has made it clear that they should adhere to high ethical standards.
Soprano2
@Omnes Omnibus: They work for TFG, they cannot be embarrassed any more.
Kristine
@Yutsano: Nominated
Manyakitty
@Amir Khalid: they must be down to all true believers by now.
Jeffro
I think it’s going to be great when, in an effort to avoid jail time, trump half-assedly admits to stealing the documents and still kept them even after they were subpoenaed. Essentially admitting he’s been lying to his cult this whole time.
I RETURNED THEM ALL EVENTUALLY!!! WHY AM I STILL BEING PROSECUTED??!? I GAVE THEM ALL BACK! OK, I GET IT NOW, I WASN’T SUPPOSED TO HAVE THEM! I WAS MIS-ADVISED BY MY SHITTY LAWYERS!!
lolololol
Ruckus
@Yutsano:
Naw. He’s the junior mob member that they keep on for laughs at how stupid he is because he thinks he’s lord high everything and has all the skill, grace and intelligence of a kid who would never be allowed into the little rascals because he’d lower the group IQ and get them into far more trouble.
JoyceH
What’s great about that letter is that it includes the lawyer’s phone numbers and email address and Trump posted it publicly. I’ll bet the lawyer’s staff is tearing their hair out today.
Ramalama
@oatler: “bi-labial fricative” a la George Carlin.
Admittedly yours is more fierce and appropriate.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jackie: A letter seeking a meeting, sure. But this letter? Good god, no.
Jeffro
btw if y’all need a funny today…Ted Lieu is retweeting a clip of Krazy Kandiss Taylor (an actual GOP candidate for GA Gov) trying to explain that the presence of globes everywhere means the round-Earth believers are trying too hard to cover up the fact that the world is actually flat.
Yes, really.
Sean
Looks like Trump will check at least 2 of the boxes here during the course of his campaign. Felon and mentally insane. You’d like to have seen the constitution raise the bar a tad on requirements.
Sheesh.
trollhattan
Letter seems a literal Trump Tweet cut-and-paste. I like the “law firm” logo, very slick, unlike the prose.
MTG has a thought: “Big name brands sexually targeting children makes me want to buy all generic brand clothing now.”
twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1661346704501743617?cxt=HHwWgoC9qdGBpY4uAAAA
The next time that woman makes sense, will coincidentally be the first. WTAF? “Sexually targeting?”
trollhattan
But enough about her porn career.
bbleh
@Yutsano: @Kristine: seconded.
p.a.
5. Absconding
I assume SA as Putin has no further use for him.
BlueGuitarist
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Meet Marty Stuart & the Fabulous Superlatives
(Above average band name!)
Here they are with Roger McGuinn, playing Dylan’s “You Ain’t Goin’ Nowhere,” with some intro chat about The Byrds, Sweetheart of the Rodeo album and lyric flub; Marty is playing Clarence White’s guitar, sounding like a pedal steel:
youtu.be/0VwmyItsU-4
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
My impression is that all of Trump’s lawyers have figured out about the not paying part and demand large retainers. It also sounds like he’s worried enough about the criminal cases and has been successful enough using them to raise money that he’s actually paying those retainers.
Ruckus
@Yutsano:
“The arc of Fuck Around is long, but it always leads to the Find Out.”
This deserves a quote.
Warblewarble
Seeking ignominy ? The quickest route is through a CNN townhall.
Jackie
@Omnes Omnibus: If it was written any other way, it would be considered a FAKE letter NOT written by TFG 😉
Skepticat
@Ken: Your version is perfect and much to be preferred. From your pixels to karma’s ears.
Ruckus
@smith:
Narcissism plus stupidity will do it every time.
And SFB has both in a massive overabundance.
Tony Jay
Garland’s office should just have a very junior staffer respond with a short note consisting of the relevant clauses and addendums in the rule book that make official meetings between the AG and legal representatives of someone under investigation by an independent prosecutor a very firm no-no.
Delivered via a brick through the window of Mar El Gulago.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
It may be politically incorrect to criticize a Republican in this way for holding to ideas that are mainstream in the party, but MTG needs a psych evaluation.
trollhattan
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: You’re not wrong, because in my best Hank Hill voice: “The gal ain’t right in the head.”
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@trollhattan: I think the “problem” comes with the implication that the whole damn party needs a psych evaluation. Maybe a self harm watch too.
Ruckus
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
but MTG needs a psych evaluation.
Not really, I mean is there any doubt what it would say?
Or are you just trying to get it written down publicly?
Matt McIrvin
@trollhattan: This has been the conservative line about trans people, and about gay people before them, all along: that they’re pedophiles and that teaching children tolerance for LGBT people is the same thing as a child molester grooming victims, because they want to fuck those children. It is Anita Bryant’s old line about “recruitment” all over again.
They use it because it works, for a while. Most people have an instinctive loathing for child molesters and an immediate drive to do whatever it takes to stop them. The emotions can override the need to fact-check.
That it also functions as a distraction from real child molesters who may not fit into Republicans’ political stereotypes about the bad guys is, perhaps, a bonus.
Chris T.
@Roger Moore:
Is it just me, or is it getting all solipsistic around here?
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Ruckus: I’m trying to get her help
WaterGirl
@Jackie: Yeah, no. :-)
Yes, there is often a meeting toward the end where the attorneys get one more chance to make the case about why the DOJ is totally wrong about their client, but they don’t write a whiny letter to the Attorney General saying “it’s not fair”.
Did you see Casey at #19? More like that.
Steeplejack
I think the odds are good that Trump’s lawyers are getting paid now. His legal problems are so vast and involved—not like wearing down some contractor in small-claims court—and everyone is now very aware of his chiseler tendencies. I’m guessing he’s now on the “We get $n up front and when that’s gone all work stops until we get the next payment” plan.
Plus he’s making bank every day on donations from the rubes. It’s almost like he’s not spending his own money, although I’m sure it pains him mightily.
The lawyers also get huge publicity, MAGA cred and the ego surge of being in the big spotlight of history. At least that’s all they see until they have to actually deal with their client on a daily basis. Welcome to hell.
Matt McIrvin
@Sean: I can see the logic. If being convicted of a felony made you ineligible to be President, there would be too great a temptation for sitting Presidents to arrest and prosecute their opponents just to have a shot at disqualifying them.
smith
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Empty Greene is a performing monkey who dances to whatever tune the organ grinder plays. It has little or nothing to do with her mental state.
That said, isn’t it amazing that a party so obsessed with identifying sexual predators is completely in thrall to a known sexual predator? I know it’s not an original thought, but I continue to be flabbergasted that Goobers don’t simply explode from the pressures of their cognitive dissonance.
WaterGirl
@Ruckus: Trump is just now learning that consequences can actually apply to him – HIM!!! – and not just the little people.
So in that sense, 4 seems about right. To Trump, I’m sure what’s happening to him seems impossible.
sdhays
My god. The fucking Constitution has provisions for a President being unable to perform their duties. Legals scholars are useless if all they can come up with is “welp, being President is important, so get out of jail free, I guess. Uh hurp!”
Ruckus
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
I worked as a mental health counselor for 4 yrs. I’m pretty sure that it’s going to require far more than a normal level of help to fix what’s broken in that head. And every successful case has always required the subject to, at the very least, be in a position in their head to ask for help. Believe me she is nowhere near that.
WaterGirl
@JoyceH: LOL, literally. I had not caught that!
edit: It shows M and T. I assume that T is telephone. What is M?
Old School
@trollhattan:
In case you aren’t up on your latest Republican outrage, they are upset with Target for selling pride merchandise in small adult sizes (or as they view it, “for kids”.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Jackie: It’s not supposed to be from him. That is the whole point of having a lawyer.
SFBayAreaGal
@WaterGirl: I believe M is for mobile
Roger Moore
@Matt McIrvin:
I think all the stuff about LGBTQ people is of a piece. Conservatives seem to believe that everyone is naturally cis het, but that they can be taught to be otherwise. All the stuff about recruiting, grooming, etc. comes from that single root belief. If it were true, the beliefs that follow from it- that we need to suppress all non-hetero, non-cis people- might actually make sense from a societal standpoint, even if they would be incredibly cruel to existing LGBTQ people. Since that belief is false, though, their strategy is both doomed to failure and incredibly cruel and harmful.
Juju
@WaterGirl: The best I could come up with is the M stands for mobile phone.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Kids have nothing to show pride for. Get a job.
Seriously though, allowing children to support their queer family or entertain or express their own queer thoughts isn’t sexualizing them in any way. No more than similar straight apparel or media. Perhaps less so than straight media, in fact.
Jay
@trollhattan:
Target Pride clothing attacks,…….
wonkette.com/target-lgbtq-pride-terrorists
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I couldn’t have gotten more straight and anti-gay messaging in my life than as I did as a child in the 80s and 90s. Yet here I am, queer as a 3 dollar bill.
karen marie
@Jackie: Except the letter is to the wrong person.
Roger Moore
@Matt McIrvin:
That makes sense superficially, but I think it’s ultimately wrong. If the government is so far in the hands of unscrupulous people that they could successfully convict their political opponents on trumped up charges, they could also fix the election. Of course you could also argue that if the electorate is so far gone that they’ll elect someone currently serving time for a legitimate crime that democracy is on its last legs anyway.
TriassicSands
I demand a meeting with AG Garland. My 3rd grade teacher treated me very unfairly — far worse than WATB Trump has been treated. It’s time to set the record straight and compensate me for decades of suffering.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@karen marie: Trump wants to speak to the manager.
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
Sean
@Matt McIrvin:
This is the prevailing argument, and I don’t disagree. I just wish we could foreclose on the possibility of actual felons as president, but I guess that’s just the job of voters.
@Roger Moore:
I guess 2024 will be a test of that point.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Roger Moore: High school was a long time ago. What was Eugene Debs’s crime?
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
He has lived, at least in that addled thing he thinks is a brain (you can see the circular issues here – blindingly obvious) in a cocoon of money and almost prestige his entire life. His ability to deny reality, especially his reality, is the cornerstone of most of his issues. And all of it is catching up to him because he thinks he was the best president ever. The bigger the issue, the more he lies to himself about what is real and what he wants. It’s a circular fucking himself squad. In the olden days this normally came at the trial, just before the hanging. Now it comes 2-4 yrs after the announcements in the newspapers.
Redshift
@smith:
They’re not obsessed with identifying sexual predators, they’re obsessed with accusing their enemies of being child molesters as a way to short-circuit having to come up with a serious argument.
RaflW
@Omnes Omnibus: How much would a “Best Lawyer” like John P Rowley III need to charge to sign such a degrading slip of chaff? And did he collect it in advance?
Gravenstone
@Low Key Swagger: No reason for Garland to take the meeting. He made the decision to hand the investigation off to Smith in part to insulate him and his office from this sort of bullshit.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
…and, for quite a few, cover up their sexual predation.
Roger Moore
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Sure, the Conservative belief is completely contrary to evidence, but that has never been enough to get them to change their minds. They believe what they want to believe. I’m just saying that their belief system is at least superficially consistent as it applies to LGBTQ people, not that it’s supported by the evidence.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Roger Moore: What good is evidence when you have the Truth*?
*a trademark of the Republican party not to be confused with actual fact)?
Redshift
@Sean: i hear you, but, not having a felony be disqualifying keeps us from the situation of too many countries where the ruling government trumps up charges to stop the opposition. Considering segregationists came up with felony disenfranchisement as a way to suppress the Black vote, I wouldn’t put that in the “it can’t happen here” category.
The Lodger
@Chris T.: If solipsism was real, it actually would be just you.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@The Lodger: But if it is just you, then aren’t all these other people just an aspect of you and, therefore, still deserving of acknowledgment and respect?
Roger Moore
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Sedition by opposing the draft.
RaflW
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: At this point, I find it hilariously sad that Hunter is brought up in things like this lawfirm letterhead correspondence.
Because try as they might (and it’s been a mighty effort), Fox, Newsmax and the GOP have just not made Hunter stick. It may rile the already-committed, but it sways no one on the fence. But it sure looks desperate and weak!
TriassicSands
The U.S. is on crutches headed for a wheelchair. The debt ceiling debacle and the 2024 election should tell us if there is any hope.
Clearly, the Republican side of the electorate is that far gone. Whether there are enough voters left to save this country is an open question. I’m not confident.
Steeplejack
@Chris T.:
Good one.
Jay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
it started with the so called “tuck swimsuits”. Basically, they have an extra layer of fabric, for privacy and sanitary reasons in “those areas”, that the vast array of wingnut’s believe is a pocket for hiding genitalia and gender as part of a vast Corporate Clothing Conspiracy to turn kids into trans and Communists.
That it’s a “pocket” is simply to not have a line of stitching seams in an annoying place and saving $0.05 cents per garment in some Bangladeshi garment sweatshop.
piratedan
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: defied subpeonas when it came to the Pullman Strike I believe (back when defying a court order landed you in jail)
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Roger Moore: See? If that man were elected president, I would argue he should be allowed to serve.
Chris T.
@The Lodger: Um, that’s the joke…
Jay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
protesting US involvement in WWI under the Aliens and Sedition Act that was later ruled Unconstitutional.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Chris T.: I thought Trump was the joke.
Steve in the ATL
@smith:
Great—another thread about Omnes….
JaySinWA
@Redshift: I could see states like Florida, Texas, or other states attempting to disqualify presidential candidates with trumped up charges and dubious convictions. Felony promotion of Woke arglebargle comes to mind
ETA or providing assistance to women seeking abortions out of state.
Skepticat
And much as I though they were very weird and difficult in many ways, I’d go back in a heartbeat.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Skepticat: Fuck the 70s. They led to the 80s. And those put us on a trajectory that may yet end human civilization.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: Dude, they are all about me. Get with the program.
Renie
Whenever trump writes how no president has been treated as horribly as he has, I always wonder if he ever heard of JFK.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: nice callback on the solipsism!
Matt McIrvin
@Roger Moore: I believe that even if sexual orientation and gender identity were 100% voluntary choices, there would still be a freedom and privacy interest in tolerating wide variation. But I acknowledge that is a radical view.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Renie: Shit, the Clintons were treated worse than he was.
trollhattan
So here’s a thing that happened, Australia edition.
JaySinWA
I am hearing that sung to the tune of “Daydream Believer”. Flat earthers aren’t Monkeying around.
Suzanne
@Jay:
And every women’s/girls’ swimsuit sold in the last 500 years has had them, BTW. It’s so you don’t have freaking spandex on your twat.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
This, all of it. And should be nothing radical about it.
oatler
Interesting to hear “nationalist conservatism” being adopted into the fascist thesaurus.
WaterGirl
@SFBayAreaGal: @Juju: That makes sense.
Oh my god, their cell phone is now all over the internet. That makes me happy.
Matt McIrvin
@Jay: So, they want to be personally able to do genital checks through strangers’ swimsuits at the pool, got it.
God, these freaks.
Scout211
@Jeffro:
I read that story a few days ago and it sure smelled like CYA to me. Not that good ole’ Boris doesn’t deserve to be thrown under the bus, but blaming Boris does let Parlatore off the hook, sort of.
Matt McIrvin
@The Lodger:
You’re mistaken–it would just be ME.
lowtechcyclist
@Yutsano:
Henry Kissinger is not only still a free man, but is somehow highly regarded by many important people. So not always.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@lowtechcyclist: Important to whom?
jonas
This was my reaction when I saw it, too. The whole point of appointing a SC was to take the AG out of the loop, as it were. His lawyers have to know this, but also want to keep their PAB client from flinging gobs of ketchup at them, I guess. Trump, of course, still operates under the assumption that Garland is a corrupt lackey like Barr taking marching orders directly from the president.
God, what a pathetic clown.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay: No, it was the Sedition Act of 1918 which is a different law from the Alien and Sedition Acts.
Ruckus
@RaflW:
When you have nothing actually real to complain about and make someone look bad you use whatever you think might work. This doesn’t work, except with people who don’t know any better, IOW the rethuglican base, and it wouldn’t with them if they didn’t keep repeating it over and over, causing it to magically become MBT. (Must Be True!)
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: I thought so.
rikyrah
Yes, the GOP wants to cause a recession 😡😡
tiktok.com/t/ZTRE4wGoN/?t=1
Roger Moore
@Skepticat:
Spoken like a cis het White person.
Tony G
That time I was ticketed for speeding on Route 17 in New Jersey, I DEMANDED a face-to-face meeting with the governor. For some reason, the cop declined to adhere to my demand.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
OK now I’m laughing….
Scout211
Has this been posted yet?
Amanda Gorman is ‘gutted’ by school district’s decision to restrict her poem after a parent complained it contained ‘hate messages’
Manyakitty
@lowtechcyclist: and the fact that he still walks the earth is an abomination.
JoyceH
@jonas:
I think the meeting was requested with Garland because Smith scares them.
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: Why not murder, now that she has died?
Ruckus
@Matt McIrvin:
You didn’t know that before now?
Roger Moore
@Matt McIrvin:
I agree with you, but I think it would be a serious issue. As I said, even if LGBTQ status were voluntary, suppressing LGBTQ people in the interests of having a sexually consistent culture would be needlessly cruel. Suppressing all media that discusses alternative ideas of gender and sexuality would be an abridgement of free speech and freedom of the press.
It’s all moot anyway. You can suppress it all you want, but some people will be born gay or trans. All you’ll accomplish is making those people bewildered and alienated rather than having a chance of being comfortable being who they are.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: You are spelling DEPRESSION wrong. :-)
Ruckus
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Well HENRY obviously.
M31
OH MY GOD A TALKING MUFFIN
lowtechcyclist
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Well, one of them is Hillary Clinton, and she still seems to be important to a number of people.
M31
the Donald Trump story
Roger Moore
@Suzanne:
So do tight men’s suits.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Roger Moore: No talking about tight men. Someone in Florida may read it and then you’ve committed a crime.
Matt McIrvin
@Ruckus: Even with repeated evidence, the extent to which these people want to be the official junk inspectors can still shock.
cain
@Scout211: Kind of like the old testament. Banning that book should be our prime goal.
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
All you’ll accomplish is making those people bewildered and alienated rather than having a chance of being comfortable being who they are.
Isn’t that the entire point?
Conservatives want conformity. They want the world to be simple. They want it to be restricted to get conformity and simplicity. And they want anyone not on board to suffer and at the very least to be uncomfortable. We make conformity a non entity and their simplicity more complex. They think atomitrons will follow better and actually like them, allow them to screw over anyone different to achieve their goals of bland, and controlled taxpayers they can screw over.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
When your coalition is held together by an agreement among the holders of all the worst ideas to support each other’s terrible ideas, you have to provide for all the little subgroups of awful.
These junk inspectors give the pervert wing of the coalition a policy win and a whole new class of employment they’d be eligible for.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Automatons (Automata?)
Jay
Siri on my phone kept calling me Shirley,
and I couldn’t figure it out, had some coffee,
then I realized I had left the phone on Airplane mode.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Jay: Shirley you can’t be serious.
Gravenstone
Just jump straight to the sack cloth, ya useless waste of skin.
cain
@Suzanne: I suppose this freakout was caused by some straight white old males – amirite?
I’m probably not surprised by that – it’s the women who support that charge know that it’s been around forever, is who will puzzle me.
Ruckus
@Matt McIrvin:
Well I’d bet that if you never get to see a partners junk (or even have a partner) because you are something, something about it and think that it will attack you in your sleep, you might dream about seeing other people’s junk. I did mention that I was a mental health counselor once upon a time……
Matt McIrvin
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: It’s that weird combination of puritanism and prurience, the way they can be simultaneously outraged by someone making a freaking M&M ad less horny and by someone enjoying themselves in a way that doesn’t personally turn them on. And the common thread is just “the whole world has to cater to MY kinks and NOT yours”.
Ruckus
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
There is a difference…..
cain
@Gravenstone: I hope they all go on a ‘cancel’ – when the big name brands realize that these idiots canceling them doesn’t hit their pocket books means that they can safely ignore them.
The only thing need to worry about is GOP politicians who decide to leverage that shit and start putting laws.
Suzanne
@cain:
Prolly? I never cease to be amazed when I encounter men who apparently have zero idea how women’s/uterus havers’ bodies work.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Matt McIrvin: When your kink is kink shaming…
Maxim
@Raoul Paste: That would be a bonus.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Ruckus: I didn’t think atomitrons was a thing. Google only turns up music and Studebakers.
Jay
@Matt McIrvin:
I don’t think they are being honest about their kinks.
Trust me, I was a Dom for 20 years. (Not a professional, I had a day job).
Step one was a meet and greet, (interrogation) to find out what their kinks really were.
Did you know that people lie on the internet?
Roger Moore
@cain:
MTG doesn’t care about facts. What really matters is that this is a chance to rile up the base, and she’ll never miss that opportunity.
Jay
@Suzanne:
I’m not surprised. Took me into my thirties to figure it out, and studying lot’s of “Where’s Waldo?” books.
cain
@Suzanne: As my wife says – men are completely clueless of the daily lives of women and what they put up with – not just from society, but from their own bodies.
cain
@Jay: I think Santos told me. But he could be lying.
Jeffro
If it’s any indication about their kinks, the entire RWNJ noise machine is still fretting – LOUDLY – about Dylan what’s her name and Bud Light today.
I think they must find her pretty attractive, if that’s the case.
Jay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
found wind powered sculptures, under atomitrons on google.
Jeffro
You could have just stopped there.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I have no clue about any of that, but I know enough to trust women’s and medical professionals’ overall judgment.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Jay: I’ve seen those, they’re pretty impressive. Never knew that’s what they were called. Thanks for that.
Jay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
in the BDSM world, that’s a particular kind of Submissive.
They are tricky to handle though, as it’s a fine line between “feeding their kink”, and doing damage.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
Even “human” isn’t explicitly specified, though it might be covered under “natural born”. Somebody would have to challenge DeSantis in the Supreme Court to litigate that issue.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Jay: Man, I thought I heard of all the kinks. I thought I had them all. I need to reassess my collection.
Baud
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
I see the makings of a hilarious movie that the whole family can enjoy.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
ETA: Deleted
SiubhanDuinne
RIP, Tina Turner. Died at 83.
Old School
RIP Tina Turner.
Alison Rose
RIP to a literal legend!
Suzanne
@Matt McIrvin:
Simone de Beauvoir identified the fucked-up duality of men who desire women and yet hate them.
RaflW
@Scout211: That district was just waiting for a request like that. Because any administrators who wanted to refuse, or at least delay while maybe tipping off the other side, would have written back and said “I’m so sorry, but there is no poem with that title written by Ms. Oprah Winfrey. Have a blessed day!”
Ken
@Jackie: I’m kind of hoping that at least one investigation has some unexpected results. Like, if the charge sheet that comes out of the Trump Organization investigation has the expected fraud charges, but also, oh, “human trafficking”.
Jay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
There are always new kinks. Funny, many of them are formed in early innocent sexual experiences, (pre adolescent) so there are always new ones forming. Ran into a “Transformer” once.
The weird thing about being a “good Dom”, is you get awareness and understanding of the kinks, and feed them properly, but rarely have any of your own, other than being a Dom.
M31
I was reminded of the story of Sally Ride and the 6-day space trip and NASA asked her if 100 tampons would be enough
rikyrah
@SiubhanDuinne:
NOOOOOOOOO :(
Dorothy A. Winsor
@M31: Oh god. I hope so!
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
And, just like that, everything in life was explained…
RaflW
@Alison Rose: Ahh, shit.
I was watching a Lizzo concert on my seatback TV last night on a flight home, and thought about seeing the incomparable Ms. Tina Turner on her Private Dancer tour in the mid 80s.
We were in the 19th row on the main floor of Reunion Arena in Dallas. Close enough that we could see a couple of the insanely fast costume changes – the stage would go really dark after a song, maybe 4 assistants would rush Tina and boom, she’d be in a new outfit in like 20 seconds (without any ‘wardrobe malfunctions’ to shock the kiddos) and the lights would go back up to a roar of approval.
She was an incredible powerhouse on that stage that night. Not my usual musical genre*, but I knew I’d not regret seeing such an amazing performer.
*Also, too, Lizzo is enough of a cultural phenomenon, and I do enjoy the song Boys, and picking something to watch on a flight too short for a movie, but too long to just sit there.
Baud
@M31:
At least they asked instead of legislating without knowledge.
Manyakitty
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): deleted back 😉
Jay
@Alison Rose:
She was brutally murdered by the anti-Drag Nazi’s and Ted Cruz, Cher has upped her security detail,
(just speculating),
Man, what a star and a survivor.
RSA
@M31: How funny! I didn’t know the story.
historycollection.jsc.nasa.gov/JSCHistoryPortal/history/oral_histories/RideSK/RideSK_10-22-02.pdf
twbrandt
Tina Turner has died. What a voice.
ETA: Ninja’d by Alison Rose.
Alison Rose
@Jay: Cher will never die. Look at photos of her now and photos from like 50 years ago. No difference. She’s a vampire.
Jay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
they are not all formed in early adolescence, but a bunch of them are. Some are formed later in life, through either freedom, expression or repression. Yeah, it get’s complex. There were times like I felt like an unpaid therapist.
Goreans for example.
Mai Naem mobile
RIP Tina Turner. I remember watching her perform on some awards show when she was probably in her mid 70s. She was just so good.
Uncle Cosmo
@Jay: Now that’s droll.
Uncle Cosmo
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Shirley U. Cantby-Sirius, to you…
Jay
@Alison Rose:
just putting it out there that the anti-Drag Nazi’s and Ted Cruz have brutally murdered and are planning to brutally murder all the classic Drag Queen Icons. Marilyn, Carmen, Bette, Eva, and many more,
It would be irresponsible not to speculate, given that Ted Cruz’s dad was the Zodiac Killer,……..
trollhattan
@Alison Rose: So weird that Keith Richards is similarly deathproof yet looks 110. Do he and Cher have a pact?
Sorry to hear about Tina–force of nature and hellova performer. Managed luckily to see her in concert once.
Tonight in tribute, I’ll revisit her take on “I’ve been loving you too long” from Get Yer Ya-Ya’s Out! How it’s done.
Rebel’s Dad
@WaterGirl: of course he has no object permanence, we’re talking about a man who eats a Big Mac and then wonders who took it.
Rebel’s Dad
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: so New Jersey
Rebel’s Dad
@Mai Naem mobile: NOOOOOO!
I thought you wrote Nina Turner at first, and I’m ashamed of the amount of Schadenfreude I felt.
Ramona Rosario
@Matt McIrvin: Exactly this!
Rebel’s Dad
@M31: that’s both funny and horrifying.
Now I’m imagining a used tampon flying around in zero g and the male astronauts losing their minds.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I take it I should wait til I’m somewhat secluded to research this?
Elizabelle
@Rebel’s Dad: LOL. Nina Turner. That never occurred to me, and would not be unwelcome news.
Jay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
don’t bother, it’s a “culture” taken from the really bad mysoginist Gor si-fi novels.
They are just “weird”.
UncleEbeneezer
My last working cover band, before Covid, used to do Tina’s version of Proud Mary. We did a lot of great tunes to get people up and dancing but NOTHING ever matched that one! RIP Tina :(
MazeDancer
Thought Tina Turner would live forever.
At least, her memory will.
eversor
Never thought I’d see a former president Karen the DOJ but here we are.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Jay: Never heard of the novels either. Research rabbit-hole time.
Manyakitty
@eversor: never thought I’d see a lot of where we are. 😐😬
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Suzanne:
Hey Suzanne
A question I’ve been thinking about recently is that in light of all these new AI chatbots, there’s been a lot of talk online about how even many white collar office jobs requiring expensive college degrees could be automated by AI in the not too distant future.
You’ve said in previous comments that college-educated married couples have lower divorce rates as compared to those with only HS diplomas. I don’t remember if you included those in skilled trades in that latter category. I think yours as well as others wider point also is that there is a sorting between men and women by education
If AI pans out to be good enough to automate much of the work done by software engineers, accountants, marketers, financial analysts etc, then couldn’t it disrupt that above dynamic?
ETA: I think it is an open question whether current chatbots could do this. I think I remember reading current tech based on training with texts might be a dead end
Jay
Is because heaven won’t have them and hell oesn’t want them that Waters, Kissenger et al are still around but we lose wonderful people like Tina?
Captain C
@Redshift:
Also, it’s projection in far too many cases.
Maxim
So sad to hear about Tina Turner. I greatly admired her ability to survive and then thrive, as well as her power as a performer. I’m sorry I never got to see her in person.
Jay
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
don’t bother. They are basically serialized clones of John Carter of Mars, with much more “hero”, misogynistic imagery, alienism, written at a grade 6 level for Grade 8 boys falling a class behind and haven’t found their Dad’s stash of Penthouse’s or Playboy’s yet.
Old School
@Jay:
Presumably, Waters would prefer neither happened.
Also, “accidental” is disputed.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jay:
The kind of stuff Vox Day was trying to push with his Sad Puppies at the Hugos?
Suzanne
@M31: Don’t forget “women’s bodies shuttin’ the whole thing down”, which is really a dignified way to refer to pregnancy resulting from rape.
lol chikinburd
Had until recently been unaware that Tina Turner sang on “Montana” with the Ikettes.
“Raisin’ my lonely / dental floss” — that’s them. Oh, and she was genuinely proud of the work they did in the interlude part (starting around 3:23).
Jay
@Old School:
nope, Water’s is full vatnick,
theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/08/roger-waters-pink-floyd-un-security-council-ukraine-russia
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I’ve at least heard of that. Must mean I’m nearing the bottom of the rabbit hole.
eversor
@Manyakitty:
For those of us here, and there are a lot, who have held all sorts of clearances, dealt with standards, dealt with the legal world, or dealt with anything national security related this is all mindblowingly insane.
It has never, in my life, crossed my mind to take even unclassified documents home. If, in some drunken misshap after a happy hour, I did find something classified in my bag I would not have lawyered up. I would have raced back to the Pentagon and turned it in as fast as I possibly could and begged for mercy.
Those of us in the national security sector take this shit seriously. Even if it’s not classified, it’s not your fucking document. Even if you fucking wrote it.
It’s all headache inducing. WTF is wrong with these people?
Jay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
sorta, kinda, more like He Man Weekly from the 1960’s goes to space in the 1970’s and finds a new populated frontier in conflict all written buy a Space Karen developed AI.* Just dreck, sexualized enough to keep an underdeveloped/unsocialized 8th Grader engaged to page 221.
*they weren’t, back them “by the word” ghostwriters were way cheaper than AI.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jay:
What a smug both-sidesing bastard
Old School
@Jay: I’m not defending Roger Waters about his Russia/Ukraine comments. I agree those are misguided.
I do think complaints that Waters is pro-fascist for performing songs from The Wall are also misguided.
rikyrah
@TriassicSands:
Oh, there are enough voters left to save this country.
Whether they will be voter suppressed is a whole other issue.
Frankensteinbeck
@eversor:
I will say this, and only this, for Trump: Taking even the most severely classified documents home is day-to-day normal for the president and vice president.
Not at all normal is declaring on the way out of the job that a bunch of documents are MINE MINE MINE! and packing them up to keep. When Trump started repeating the claim that they’re his property and demanding them back… that shit’s pathological.
Suzanne
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I am sure that you can Google this, as, like, every publication of note has had stories on this in recent years. I don’t know if researchers have broken out marriages with couples having skilled trades careers separately from either high-school grads or college grads. I would surmise, by inference, that there are plenty of those marriages, and that the more financially advantaged that they are, those couples have lower rates of divorce. That is the overall trend.
As for AI disrupting white-collar work….. sure? I mean, it has been a frequent discussion for years in my own profession and corner of the market, and yet, so far, none of the AI is close to a person. One firm I worked for had an entire Digital Practice department dedicated to creating tools to automate parts of our job, and they came up with some cool things. But everything they created solved the easy problems, never the hard problems. Right now, my opinion is that AI is like self-driving cars….. the basic parts are easy to automate, but the moment real-life scenarios enter the chat, it falters. And so the skilled, trained judgment of humans remains critical.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jay:
Ugh, they sound awful lol
JML
RIP, Tina Turner. You really rose above.
What a brilliant performer. I wish I had seen her live onstage; even from just watching video of her the experience was remarkable. The documentary of her life from a few years ago is very well done and a lovely capstone to an absolutely iconic career. I highly recommend the watch.
Odie Hugh Manatee
I was watching Sky News the other day (because I like British comedy) and one of TFG’s attorneys was on explaining how the judge in whatever case was violating the First Amendment rights of the Great Orange Orifice. He went on to explain to the reporter about how they might be familiar with that Amendment and others that we came up with after a little tiff between our nations some years ago.
The guy had ears that a radar dish would admire. That’s all I could look at…lol!
OT: Some Aussie “humour”… from a conversation about the government considering requiring EVs to make specific sounds so people can hear them coming:
“Adding the dulcet tones of Elon Musk talking about cryptocurrency should be enough to keep pedestrians away.”
lol!
Frankensteinbeck
@Suzanne:
EeeeeeeYUP.
I do think it will make some useful tools that will enable humans to make things that were too difficult before. Voice transformation software won’t replace actors, and might cause copyright clusterfucks, but it’s one of the things AI does well that can have huge creative uses.
different-church-lady
The five stages of Trump dealing with anything:
1-ranting
2-ranting
3-ranting
4-ranting
5-ranting
Jay
@Old School:
Water’s is limited in the Pink Floyd songs he can perform, because the rest of Pink Floyd sued his ass off for being a vile vatnick and Nazi fluffer and won.
Comparing Anne Frank and 20,000,000+ other victims,……. really, when his favorite nation, Moscovia is currently conducting a genocide he won’t condemn? Really?
Somebody with a remaining brain, a heart, who wasn’t heavily engaged in sucking Putin’s ass and every “Globalist” conspiracy on the world wide web, (looking at you, Space Karen), could have come up with a shit load of imagery more relevant to the world today than just weak assed trying to restage scenes from The Wall, or The Triumph of the Will, more so in Germany.
He’s a vatnick.
different-church-lady
@Jay: The fascist imagery of The Wall originally signified the mental collapse of the protagonist. It was not to be taken as support for Nazism. Rather, it was to be taken as an extreme and horrific failure.
It’s tough to say where Waters is with all this today, but it’s possible this Tweeter doesn’t understand the point.
Old School
@Jay:
From your own link above:
Steeplejack
@SiubhanDuinne:
NYT obituary (🎁 link).
Roger Moore
@eversor:
There really is a difference between the President and an ordinary worker who deals with classified information. The President is basically surrounded by classified information all the time. Bear in mind that the White House is his home during the presidency, so he isn’t bringing classified material home; other people are bringing it to him in his home. He is literally on the job 24/7/365.
That’s not to say that what Trump did is anything less than criminal. He went way beyond accidentally taking some classified material with him when he left office. Biden and Pence did that, and they promptly returned the stuff they had taken as soon as they realized. Trump appears to have taken classified material deliberately, then done everything he could think of to keep it when contacted about it by the authorities.
different-church-lady
@Old School: I haven’t read the entire thread, so I’m not I’m fully aware of the specifics of the debate. But I can say that considering Waters’ recent muddled comments, assertions, and posturing, I don’t blame people for thinking he’s slipped into a non-ironic embrace of fascists.
Ruckus
@Suzanne:
Humans can think more than one line at a time, more than one concept.
Computers think in order. Even an extremely well written program, run on an insanely fast computer using AI does not think like a brain can. And yes not all brains operate at the same level and or speed and yes for some tasks AI does work. But just like brains sometimes fail because of information overload or missing information, AI has blind spots because the concepts are limited in what they can process. And yes AI can learn concepts and limits and for somethings and can work very well. Within limits. But until it can work AS a brain can it will never replace a proper operating brain for some tasks. The thing that makes some think it can is that not every brain works to THE optimum proper level at all times. Which is why we still have accidents and stupidity, because while brains CAN work in some situations far better than AI, not ALL brains are working at an optimum level at all times and some never do. Think Shit For Brains in this concept.
Ruckus
@different-church-lady:
Did you intend to leave out the descriptive word, insane in all 5 stages?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Suzanne:
@Frankensteinbeck:
Thanks for your answers and I do you’re correct. I will say, I’m surprised by how quickly AI imitation of voices and such has advanced in a few short years
Tony Jay
@different-church-lady:
Given that the tweeter in question goes out of their way to whitewash the latest straight-up murder of a journalist by Israeli Security Forces as ‘an accident’, I’d say the point they’re trying to make is perfectly understandable, and reprehensible.
different-church-lady
@Ruckus: Naw, I just didn’t get enough sleep.
different-church-lady
@Matt McIrvin: “Boot stomping on human face, forever!” is a kind of kink.
Another Scott
@Ruckus: Not to be “‘that guy”, but… ;-)
Lots of digital computers have lots of parallelism in them now (multi-threading, multi-core, etc.).
But even before that, there were analog computers which could solve differential equations in ways that didn’t involve sequential “if – then – else” logic.
(My EE grad school had an analog computer in the computer room, back in the back behind the flatbed CalComp plotter, etc., etc.)
Cheers,
Scott.
Sister Golden Bear
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
That would require clients (in the broad sense of the word) to be able to know exactly what they want, and be able to articulate it to said software engineers, etc.
We’re safe.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I mean, this was fun at first but I have other interests too.
different-church-lady
@Sister Golden Bear: What they want is to be wealthy and to go home early. If an AI makes that happen the AI will be good enough for them.
different-church-lady
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Tourist.
Suzanne
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Also, I want to note something about my profession (architecture) that I assume is true of many others: what y’all think I do — draw a lot and come up with cool ideas — is really like 5% of my job. What I actually spend a lot of time doing is help people make decisions, usually about spending large sums of money. So I draw options, you can have X or Y or Z, each have tradeoffs. And I help them figure out the built form of those decisions, those processes, and their many competing constraints, and that costs a lot of money, too. And then when the project costs too much, as it invariably does, I help them consider ways to get most of what they want/need, but spend less money. All of that requires judgment and cognitive empathy, it doesn’t really require production.
What normies call “blueprints” are mostly drawn by junior-level staff being told what to do by mid-level and senior-level staff. If we automated away the drawing part (which is already pretty automated), we wouldn’t be developing mid-level and senior-level staff.
Suzanne
@Sister Golden Bear:
BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAAAA.
Maxim
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): A friend of mine was able to log into his Schwab account using an AI clone of his voice. My understanding is that phones don’t have very good fidelity, so using a voice over a phone to access sensitive information is a bad idea even without AI in the picture.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: Most people do not really understand what most professionals really spend their time doing.
Roger Moore
@Sister Golden Bear:
What’s most likely to happen in practice is that the AI will automate drudge work, leaving humans to do more high-level thinking that the computers can’t do yet. It isn’t AI, but some of that has already happened in a lot of fields. In computer programming, for example, higher level languages let programmers focus on the core problem the customer wants solved rather than low level memory management. Think about how much slower it would be to solve accounting problems if everything had to be done in Assembly rather than high-level languages.
In practice, people’s demands increase almost as rapidly as programmers productivity, so the amount of work per project stays much closer to the same than you’d naively expect. We’re effectively taking our productivity gains in the form of higher quality (or at least more features) rather than cheaper products. I think something like this will be true across a lot of professional services. It’s certainly true in my field; increased productivity pushes people to ask for bigger projects rather than doing the same kinds of things faster and cheaper.
Captain C
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Sounds like “I condemn this rape, but let’s face it, she had it coming.” He could have stopped with the first half and been fine.
Captain C
@Old School: The omission of the line after, which was the equivalent of “but her skirt was short, so she deserved it” seems rather significant in your quoting of Waters.
Rebel’s Dad
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): he has a point, if the Russians had never invaded Crimea or aided the rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk then none of this would’ve ever happened.
Suzanne
@Roger Moore:
100% true in my field. There is research indicating that architecture is no more productive than it was 50 years ago. But if you look at drawing sets from 50 years ago, they built entire buildings with 40 pages of drawings. Today, that building would take 300 pages of drawings. What’s the extra 260 sheets? Much higher level of precision and detail (now we draw and dimensionally locate every power outlet), integration of more and more sophisticated building systems and computing, and we make more decisions about cost items earlier in the project, so we draw it. Also, the regulatory powers that be now want to see photofinish-level renderings and fully calculated site plans before they’ll even decide if you can build your project on land that you own.
Frankensteinbeck
@Roger Moore:
To echo your statements, I think the best comparison is CGI. I’m old enough, interested enough in animation, and surrounded by artists enough to remember the predictions – nay, panics – that the development of 3D computerized art was going to make human animators obsolete. There are if anything more animators than ever, and the development of all these computer tools has instead allowed animators to produce more and better art rather than cutting down to much fewer artists producing the same art. There were similar, but more nebulous, fears among non-animation artists when tablet/stylus style digital art tools became readily available, but with a similar result. The same people produce more and better.
Rebel’s Dad
@Jay: “Space Karen” just made me guffaw on the train to work and now people are looking at me (I’m pretending it’s not because I’m voguing to Deborah Cox on my headphones).
Lyrebird
@Steve in the ATL:
@Omnes Omnibus:
Serious question: if someone, in a political cartoon, made fictitious characters say things that actual real life homophobic state legislators said, and if the not very good cartoonist made the faces vaguely similar to the faces of the homophobic state legislators, is that legally bad? Asking for a friend ha ha.
I know fiction writers put disclaimers sometimes, saying they’re not intending to portray any real person. But in this case there is an intent to portray real people, if they really are people given how much they hate other people’s children…
evodevo
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Hmmm…does “natural born” cover C-section deliveries?
Suzanne
@Frankensteinbeck:
And if anything, there’s now a value premium on well-done handmade things. There’s an authenticity to them that is very appealing.
I realized this a few years ago when I was doing some campus recruiting. Every firm, including mine, had these super-cool digital displays. (A few years back, it was seen as a positive differentiator for firms trying to hire to have the latest-and-greatest design tools to attract staff.) None of the students gave even a fraction of a shit about it. They assume that they’ll have it, and many of the candidates wanted to show their hand-drawn work instead. Ever since, I have really noticed that clients loooooove to see us draw by hand.
Jay
@different-church-lady:
I am of Wall age. Saw it in the theatre, always watched it when it was a Much Music special, ( our MTV until we got MTV),
One could do the same songs, dressed in a Gucci suit, with an unobtanium briefcase or man purse, while video images tailored to the songs could show the contrast between rich and poor, the precariate, natural disasters vs. gluttony, etc If you feel you need “marching” images, well there’s a crapload that have more resonance and revulsion than what he used.
Charlottsville anyone?
Being a card carrying leftie, if saddled with a limited songbook for being an asshole, (which I wouldn’t because I am not an asshole most of the time, and have learned how to give a real apology and correct my actions), that’s what I would have done.
different-church-lady
@Roger Moore:
Oh. Then we are doomed.
Roger Moore
@Frankensteinbeck:
Yep. Look at what Photoshop (and clones) have done for photo editing. It used to be done in the darkroom, and there was a limit to what even the cleverest darkroom artist could do. Instead of accepting the same kinds of things just way faster and easier, we do way more. Some of that is actually really problematic, e.g. editing glamor photos to make the models meet unattainable physical standards.
Manyakitty
@eversor: let me assure you that some of us relative normies/civilians/what have you agreed with every word of your comment. Unimaginable.
different-church-lady
@Jay: Yeah, there’s a lot of things he could have done. He did that. It might have been the wrong thing to do, but that doesn’t change the fact that at the time it was self-comdemnation.
Waters has been an asshole his entire life, which is something I did not realize in my youth. But I still don’t think his message condemning evil should be contorted just because someone doesn’t comprehend irony in art. Attack him for his confused bullshit of today.
Omnes Omnibus
@Lyrebird:
Hope this helps.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
I understand. I’ve owned computers since 1978 and was programing them before that. I owned a machine tool 34 yrs ago that cut metal with electricity and ran 24 hrs a day doing things that machine tools had never done before and it was all programed with programs I wrote. And I made the tools for the machine on another machine that also had no handles – all movement was numerical and programed.
I know that a lot of computers do things today that they couldn’t do not all that long ago because programing has changed from the first time I did it, using punch cards. But it takes humans to tell them what to do and how to do it. Now I’m sure a computer can program other computers but every single step has to be told to them. There are just a lot of steps today that didn’t exist not all that long ago and they can be very complex steps. Human computers can still make decisions about some things that would be likely impossible with a computer. I don’t think this will always be this way. We as a species learn a lot every day and have learned a lot more in my lifetime than most prior lifetimes. Because learning depends on the learning that went on before.
Roger Moore
@Ruckus:
AI is actually making a lot of progress in computer programming. For example, you can ask ChatGPT to write you a program in your favorite language that will calculate the date of Easter every year until 3000, and it will write it for you. It absolutely isn’t perfect- if you ask it for something more complicated than that it will often produce something that looks vaguely reasonable but produces garbage output- but it’s a lot more capable than anyone would have believed even 5 years ago.
Kosh III
@Sean: In 1920 Eugene Debs got almost 900,000 votes for President, at that time he was in prison for opposing WWI.
Kosh III
The AG should agree to a meeting–at 4:55pm Jan 19, 2025.
Kayla Rudbek
@Roger Moore: like a cis het White man…