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Don’t expect peaches from an apple tree.

Hey Washington Post, “Democracy Dies in Darkness” is supposed to be a warning, not a mission statement.

I wonder if trump will be tried as an adult.

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Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

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You are here: Home / Politics / Trump Indictments / WTF?

WTF?

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I have been playing catch-up on work for a client today, so I have missed the news.  (But I did see some awesome rants from the blogfather, looking forward to reading them tomorrow.)

WTF?

Can they seriously fine a member of the house $16 million dollars?  Don’t they have to have a reason?  A real one, I mean, not just payback for impeachment and the Jan 6 committee.

It failed today, and she plans to do it again!

Non-crazy Republicans in the House need to put this to bed.  I see that 20 voted YEA today, so it failed.  120 need to stop this next one in its tracks.  I mean seriously, if I were a Republican in the House (of course I wouldn’t be) it would be humiliating to be part of the House right now.

Back to my first question.  Can they really fine a member $16 million, and is it enforceable?  Or is it just performative?

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

85Comments

  1. 1.

    Chetan Murthy

    I’m not a lawyer, but this sure sounds like a bill of attainder, which is unconstitutional.

    ETA: the act of censuring someone is not a punishment, so that wouldn’t be covered.  But fining them 16 million dollars? Yeah no That’s punishment and Congress is not allowed to pass laws doing that against individuals.  Or at least I think that’s the way it should work….. I’m not a lawyer.

  2. 2.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    So that’s why I was getting all those fundraising messages. I just assumed it was about the Senate campaign.

  3. 3.

    RepubAnon

    Republicans used to make. big point of carrying around pocket copies of the Constitution.  Pity they didn’t have anyone to help them with the big words…

  4. 4.

    Betty Cracker

    I have no answers on what is and is not allowed in the House (fuckifino!), but every time I hear about Rep. Luna(tic)’s bizarre antics, it blows my mind that she reps FL 13th. She’s MTG-level nuts and is not a good fit for that district. Hopefully Dems will choose wisely when selecting an opponent in 2024.

  5. 5.

    WaterGirl

    @Betty Cracker: Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with these people?

    Is there no one in their lives to hold up a mirror and help them see that they have totally lost the fucking plot?

    *yelling, but not yelling at you. :-)

  7. 7.

    lollipopguild

    @WaterGirl:  Alot of them are costume playing 8 year olds who think that they can do anything they want and get away with it. Trump is not only their god he is their role model.

  8. 8.

    smith

    It’s politics as a generational blood feud. If they are injured, they feel  honor-bound to injure back. It’s really the same thing as Clinton being impeached because Nixon was. They searched for years to try to find something they could impeach him for, and finally found a ridiculous nothing-burger.

    Same thing is happening now, with this attempt at a stiletto in Schiff’s back. Same with Gym Jordan flailing around to try to find something to pin on Biden.

    Law and ethics have nothing to do with it, only revenge.

  9. 9.

    JaySinWA

    Here’s the text of the bill as proposed today. Luna has put forward several bills against Shiff, this is the latest one. https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hres489/BILLS-118hres489ih.pdf

    If you skip to the last Whereas you get this

    Whereas if it is determined by an investigation conducted by
    the Committee on Ethics that Representative Schiff lied,
    made misrepresentations, and abused sensitive information, he should be fined in the amount of $16,000,000:

    Now, therefore, be it
    1 Resolved, That—
    2 (1) the House of Representatives censures and
    3 condemns Adam Schiff, Representative of Califor
    4 nia’s 30th Congressional District, for conduct that

    1 misleads the American people in a way that is not
    2 befitting an elected Member of the House of Rep
    3 resentatives;
    4 (2) Representative Adam Schiff will forthwith
    5 present himself in the well of the House of Rep
    6 resentatives for the pronouncement of censure;
    7 (3) Representative Adam Schiff will be cen
    8 sured with the public reading of this resolution by
    9 the Speaker; and
    10 (4) the Committee on Ethics shall conduct an
    11 investigation into Representative Adam Schiff’s lies,
    12 misrepresentations, and abuses of sensitive informa
    13 tion.

    Sorry for the ugly formatting. The “should” would make it non mandatory and the reliance on the now gutted ethics committee probably makes it toothless

    ETA I am surprised that the R’s mustered 20 votes to table it. Given that, it is probably going nowhere if she goes ahead and reintroduces it next week as promised. Just a time waster performance vote.

  10. 10.

    AJ of the Mustard Search and Rescue Team

    Is there a process for proposing new tags?

    If so, I offer “Cole on a roll” up as a candidate.

    He was on fireeeeee

  11. 11.

    BeautifulPlumage

    From a War Translated tweet today – could almost have been said by a republican:

    “We are at war with our own stupidity and lack of care, mixed up with positive reports.”

  13. 13.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @smith:

    It’s politics as a generational blood feud. If they are injured, they feel  honor-bound to injure back. It’s really the same thing as Clinton being impeached because Nixon was

    I’m an old man with a long memory, especially for grudges, and seems to me at least as recently as the Kavanaugh hearings they were still talking about Bork, which made even me have to stop and say, “Huh? Oh yeah. Jesus. Really?”

    I think Kavanaugh will be their new judicial martyr, even though he made it.

  20. 20.

    smith

    @BlueGuitarist: Of course Santos would, with his sterling reputation for honesty and truth.

    Here’s a question: If Schiff’s fake lies are worth $16 mil, what are Santos’ genuine ones worth?

  23. 23.

    Ken

    @Chetan Murthy: @JaySinWA: It’s a bill? So in addition to the flaws you both noted, it would have to be passed in the Senate and signed by Biden? So really the only two things Rep. Luna might accomplish with this are wasting everyone’s time, and irritating her colleagues.

  24. 24.

    smith

    @Ken: Really, I think the best value we will get out of this Congress is wasting time. Heaven forbid the R’s in the house would actually pass any of their agenda.

  25. 25.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Princess:

    The making of Anna Paulina Luna

    Luna’s sharp turn to the right, her account of an isolated and impoverished childhood, and her embrace of her Hispanic heritage have surprised some friends and family who knew her before her ascent to the U.S. House this year.

  26. 26.

    Ken

    @WaterGirl: is that even possible?

    I think it involves Cantor’s proof that there are different kinds of infinities, some of which are larger than others.

  27. 27.

    bbleh

    @lollipopguild: I do think it’s all performance, and I think a few of them are actually dumb enough to think “it’s working, I’m winning!” but I think most of them know perfectly well it’s kayfabe and they think little enough of their supporters (probably justifiably — they know them well) that they know it’ll help with getting re-elected.  And that suggests that it’s their supporters who are the angry 8-year-olds, cheering for the kid in front who’s razzing the teacher.

    Used to be that the best way to buy off your supporters was to bring home the bacon.  Now it’s to smear yourself with tomato sauce, curse at Democrats, and set off smoke bombs.

  29. 29.

    Scout211

    Dale Ho was finally confirmed today 50-49. 

    Senate Democrats on Wednesday confirmed Dale Ho to become a district judge for the Southern District of New York, bringing his lengthy nomination journey to a close.

     

    Senators voted 50-49 to put Ho over the top. Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) was the lone Democrat to oppose Ho, who serves as director of the American Civil Liberties Union’s Voting Rights Project and has 15 years of civil rights experience.

  31. 31.

    Citizen Alan

    Where can I find a list of who voted which way. I want to see which way the dumbasses from Mississippi voted.

  38. 38.

    smith

    @bbleh: I’m guessing their supporters are the people who believe reality TV is real, so this kind of stirring up conflict just for funsies seems real to them. A lot of them were only drawn to politics and voting via TFG, and don’t know that being a Congressperson (or a president) is an actual job that you should expect to result in actual accomplishments.

  40. 40.

    Mike S

    These people are dangerously insane. An argument can be made that if they come to your door in Florida you should be able to “stand your ground” and ‘protect your castle” from them.

  43. 43.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Ken: Math pedantry alert: Cantor’s diagonalization proof “just” showed that the reals are uncountable.

  44. 44.

    TS

    @smith:

     I think the best value we will get out of this Congress is wasting time

    I would hope the next best value are the ads for democrats in the next congressional election

  46. 46.

    JaySinWA

    @Citizen Alan:Where can I find a list of who voted which way. I want to see which way the dumbasses from Mississippi voted.

    Here’s the roll call, you can filter by state.

    https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023269?Page=2

    Here’s Mississippi: (Vote to table – Yes means no to censor)

    Ezell
    Republican
    Mississippi
    NAY

    Guest
    Republican
    Mississippi
    NAY

    Kelly (MS)
    Republican
    Mississippi
    NAY

    Thompson (MS)
    Democratic
    Mississippi
    YEA

     

  47. 47.

    Old School

    At least one of the 20 Republicans who voted against it said they’d vote for a censure, but not one that added “and be fined $16 million.”

  48. 48.

    Sister Golden Bear

    Re-upping for the late-night crowd… There’s a trans refugee crisis within the U.S., but the mainstream media keeps focusing on drag queen story hours, and lies about “groomers.”

    The scale of this issue remained under wraps until a recent Data For Progress survey brought to light the unsettling reality: hundreds of thousands of transgender people have already left their home states, and more than a million are considering a similar course of action in the coming months. These transgender individuals, frequently accompanied by their families, often sacrifice their jobs and relinquish their stability to reach the sanctuary of states willing to facilitate their care and protect them under the law. Should this trend persist, we may witness the largest domestic migration crisis since the Dust Bowl upheaval of the 1940s.

    The numbers are stark. The poll from Data For Progress shows that 8% of all transgender people have already moved out of their community or state as a result of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. An additional 43% of transgender people are likewise considering moving. Transgender people are between 0.5-1% of the population of the United States, meaning that 130-260,000 transgender people have already fled their home states. An additional million transgender people are considering leaving due to the anti-trans legislation that targets them

  52. 52.

    smith

    @Sister Golden Bear: If I were in that situation I think I’d flee, too. If they were coming from another country, with those kinds of threats, they’d probably qualify for political asylum.

  53. 53.

    RaflW

    Yes, @smith is correct. And because of the ‘safe’ nature of so many of these seats, the Republicans who engage in this absolute shite almost never lose their jobs over it.

    I hope we can rally to help Boebert get fired in ’24. It was so close this last time.

  56. 56.

    RaflW

    @JaySinWA: Reminds me of when a desperate and unethical Realtor sued my parents. The initial ‘bodily injury’ suit was for like $15K (1980s money). When my dad’s insurance company said “OK, let’s start discovery, we’re ready to go” which was not at all the quick settlement they expected, the plaintiffs suddenly amended the complaint to a couple hundred thousand.

    Make it eye popping, even if it’s bullshit at any amount. It of course didn’t impress our insurance lawyer.

  59. 59.

    Kent

    I think theoretically they could fine a member $16 million dollars if they FIRST passed a statute that established X-behavior as a crime and then set the penalty for that crime at $16 million fine.  But that would mean passage by both the House and Senate and being signed into law by the president.

    Then anyone who does x-behavior could be tried and if convicted, fined $16 million including Schiff if the DOJ chose to pursue the case.  But only for new crimes going forward, not for past behavior.

    Of course there is no such statute and there never will be.  So yes, the whole thing is performative bullshit.

  61. 61.

    RaflW

    @smith: They’re not passing anything. House Appropriations Committee members were supposed to vote on a slate of allocations today, but ended the markup after a long unproductive exchange. Steny Hoyer “accused R’s of going back on the debt-limit deal.”

    Bloomberg reporter Jack Fitzpatrick then asked Chairwoman Kay Granger (R – TX 12th) [14 terms in office!] how tomorrow will go. “You’ll have to ask them. They’re the ones that blew it up.”

    So, yeah, things are running as terribly as we expected. McCarthy has no control of his caucus, and the Debt Limit ‘Deal’ is likely in tatters.

    So all they have is wildly performative stunts like trying to censure Schiff and maybe even impeach Biden (hah, really).

  62. 62.

    smith

    @RaflW:  Trying to Impeach Biden was totally predictable. As soon as the first time TFG was impeached it was a sure thing that the next time there was a GQP House and a Dem president there would be an impeachment attempt every other week. In fact, I wouldn’t be suprised if the GQP made that their standard operating procedure from now on any time we’re in that situation.

  64. 64.

    TriassicSands

    Schiff, an obvious communist, is lucky to get off with being censured and fined. Once the Republicans get the Fourth Reich fully established, his crimes will require a mandatory death sentence, but only after extensive torture.

    Representative Luna, aka Reprehensible Lunatic, is a real piece of work.

    Non-crazy Republicans in the House need to put this to bed. — WaterGirl

    Please remind me who exactly is a “non-crazy” Republican. Today, I consider all Repubicans crazy, since they are actively participating in a party that is entirely crazy.

    On the other hand, they should censure Schiff and fine him a trillion dollars because he’s obviously a communist, where the definition of a communist is a sane, responsible person who opposes fascism, racism, kleptocracy, invertebrates like McCarthy holding office, and criminals like Trump, who makes Al Capone look like an average law-abiding guy.

    I suspect that when Rep. Lunatic decided to run for political office she felt that her last name would be a hindrance so she dropped the “tic” from her name and ran as Luna instead of Lunatic. Today, however, she should reconsider that decision since openly acknowledging you are a lunatic is now a big plus to Republican voters.

    Schiff was an articulate spokesperson for impeaching and convicting Trump, which is now apparently, according to Rep. Lunatic, an unforgivable offense. Let’s face it, even criticizing TFG is tantamount to criticizing god (lowercase “G” intentional). There was a time (and it’s still the case in places) when criticizing god didn’t get a person censured and fined. Nope, it got the person executed. So, Schiff must be relieved that he will get off so easily should Lunatic manage to construct a motion to censure that succeeds.

    I feel like I went to sleep in 2016 and woke up in Wonderland where the Red Queen had been replaced by the Orange Emperor. (Although, I’m sure Trump prefers his title to be Der Fūhrer.

  66. 66.

    Another Scott

    @JaySinWA: IANAL, but I was told once that “Whereas” sections were “dicta”.  It’s throat clearing noises by the writer – not specific enough to be a legal prohibition or guidance for the courts.  Like the Preamble to the Constitution:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    You can’t sue your neighbor, or the DoD, under the Constitution for suppressing the general welfare.

    Now in this case, the $16M is in the Whereas, and that seems pretty specific.  But it also says “if” and “should”, which is stupid and not an actual “must” or “will” or whatever.  (Presumably a serious censure resolution would come after he was actually found to have committed some offense by the Committee or a court, not before.)

    Anyway, as everyone says, it’s performative BS.

    Corrections welcome.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  67. 67.

    TriassicSands

    @Sister Golden Bear:

    I completely understand people relocating to different states. Though the downside to that is that every time a good person leaves a bad state because of persecution and justifiable fear there is then one less good person (plus all the other good people who may have left with them) to vote to someday turn things around. I’m not arguing they shouldn’t leave — they have to do what is best for them personally and their families — but the long-term result could be that the bad states never get turned around.

    I respect people who remain in bad states and cast votes to change things for the better, but in today’s environment for not only the entire LGBTQ+ community, but also all women of child-bearing age, staying in the bad state sounds like a terrible idea that in some cases might not only result in loss of freedom, but even loss of life. We’ve seen the threat to females with difficult pregnancies, but how long will it be before gun-toting nutjobs decide that “god” wants them to start eliminating the “undesirables.” Republican rhetoric gets more extreme and more threatening all the time, and, far too often, extreme rhetoric (January 6) is followed by physical violence.

    It is tragic that good people are having their lives turned upside down by fascist idiots.

  68. 68.

    TriassicSands

    @Another Scott: Presumably a serious censure resolution would come after…

    …the Republican Party ceases to exist.

    It is nearly impossible to imagine anything serious ever coming from the Republican House members in 2023.

    Nope, I tried to imagine it and I couldn’t. I didn’t even get close.

  69. 69.

    RaflW

    @JaySinWA: I would love it if they would take (actually, buy) my 4 year old, overly fancy gas stove and install it in some Republican house. But I need an electrical panel upgrade to have the amps for an induction stove.

  72. 72.

    JaySinWA

    @RaflW: I used a table top induction burner for a while, and it worked well, but it couldn’t be used at the same time on the same circuit as our microwave. Fortunately we have two 110V circuits in our kitchen, so it could be rearranged to prevent popping the breaker. It didn’t replace multiple burners used at the same time though, and you still have the oven to deal with.

    Our 220V electric stove wiring is probably okay if we replace our current electric with induction, but it is old 3 wire not grounded 4 wire.

  73. 73.

    smike

    @BlueGuitarist: ​
      That whole article was worth reading for the last bit:

    “I’ll be honest,” wrote MSNBC host Mehdi Hasan, “even I didn’t have ‘grandkid of an actual Nazi’ on my House GOP bingo card for 2023.”

  74. 74.

    Roger Moore

    @Dopey-o:

    Speech & Debate Clause?

    No.  What the Speech & Debate Clause says is that members of Congress can’t be punished by the courts for what they say in Congress.  The only thing that’s left to hold them accountable is their own House, which is exactly what’s happening here.

  76. 76.

    Citizen Alan

    I’ve no idea what the hell happened there. Mods, please delete the extras.

  77. 77.

    Citizen Alan

    @TriassicSands: For what it’s worth, I was hoping to go to a purple state and help turn it blue. But none of those interviews panned out. I do look forward to voting against Tom McClintock in November.

  79. 79.

    Albatrossity

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I’m an old man with a long memory, especially for grudges, and seems to me at least as recently as the Kavanaugh hearings they were still talking about Bork, which made even me have to stop and say, “Huh? Oh yeah. Jesus. Really?”

    Hell, some of them are still fighting the Vietnam War and punching hippies…

  80. 80.

    Another Scott

    @Citizen Alan: @WaterGirl:

    I assume that a backup / database compaction / etc. job still runs at 2 AM ET and that is what causes the weirdness (long delays, duplicates) that happens on trying to post a comment around that time.

    Is that still the case, WaterGirl?  (That’s the story I recall from the pre-disaster times.)

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  81. 81.

    ArchTeryx

    @TriassicSands: Trans folks aren’t numerous enough to seriously affect a state’s demographics as far as I’ve read. It’s just that reason why they are ripe targets for genocide – they are effectively disenfranchised as a group in these states.

    But even if a large enough number of Ds leave a red state to make it redder, that also includes a brain drain and often, a lot of skilled workers.  Immigrant workers as well, because they always go after immigrants.  At which point construction, agriculture, and contracting shuts down dead.  Ask Florida and Georgia about that one.

    Eventually the state collapses under the weight of its own fascism.  The total destruction of the education system in Kansas was a type example.  Eventually enough people held their noses and started voting for Democrats, and that’s when the damage finally began to be reversed

    The hardest core red states – aka some of the Solid South and the empty Great Plains states – are going to stay red for the foreseeable future.  But a lot of others may turn on demographics alone given enough time.  Georgia is going that way.

  82. 82.

    Bill Arnold

    Looked at https://twitter.com/RepLuna twitter feed (the last few weeks, at least). She’s absolutely pickled in right-wing echo chamber pickling liquid. She speaks (well, tweets) in RW code, and says things that are provably not true. She should be called a liar to her face, often.
    I will henceforth assume that she is also a treasonous pedophile, by the curiously accurate Republican-accusations-are-confessions heuristic.

  83. 83.

    JBWoodford

    @smith: For Trump and his ilk, there’s also the apparent assumption that everyone is as dishonest/venal/generally unpleasant as they are, so if Trump et al are going to be punished for being dishonest/venal/generally unpleasant, everyone else should be, too.

  85. 85.

    Dennis Doubleday

    Congress does have the right to fine its own members. This was established in a SC ruling, can’t remember which one. However, this would be a ludicrous fine, even IF it were not a ludicrous charge.

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