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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Meet the new clowns (same as the old clowns)

Meet the new clowns (same as the old clowns)

by Betty Cracker|  June 19, 202311:09 am| 115 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Politics, Republican Stupidity, Our Failed Media Experiment

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Fash-curious meatheads Joe Rogan and Elon Musk spent the weekend demanding that vaccine expert Peter Hotez, MD appear on Rogan’s dumb but regrettably popular podcast to debate noted anti-vax kook Robert Kennedy Jr. Why?

The Kennedy failson was a recent guest on the podcast, and Hotez retweeted a Vice article that debunks some of the lies RFK the (Much) Lesser spread unopposed on Rogan’s show. Vice also criticized Rogan’s persistent COVID-19 disinformation, including twaddle on the efficacy of ivermectin, i.e., horse paste.

The pushback enraged Rogan, who offered to contribute $100K to a charity if Hotez would do the debate. A Musk pal (and fellow policy failure, i.e., billionaire Bill Ackman) offered to add $150K. Assorted wingnuts with too much disposable income then goosed the amount past $600K, last I heard.

Hotez, who has been on Rogan’s show before, said he’d go on the podcast to “clear the air” but not to debate a crank. Musk then piped up in his signature aggressively authoritative moronic fashion to say that Hotez must therefore “hate charity.”

It’s telling that Rogan and Musk feel entitled to demand Hotez’s time to debate a crazy person. When viewed through the lens of their cathedral-scale egos, the rest of us are circus monkeys who are required to dance on command for their entertainment. And they enforce their demands by siccing their legions of braindead sycophants to intimidate anyone who refuses.

It’s a wonder wealthy, entitled d-bags like Rogan and Musk haven’t gotten anyone murdered. (Yet.) I’m 100% supportive if they want to eschew the benefits of modern medicine themselves; I think the world would be a better (or at least quieter) place if they did go full caveman and let nature take its course.

The problem arises when they use their outsized megaphones to lure impressionable people into making bad decisions — and when they aim flying monkey swarms at people who haven’t volunteered to staff their circus. Hotez has been relentlessly harassed since he politely declined the “debate.” The browbeating inspired at least one fool (and possibly others) to accost him in public.

Rogan is basically the new Rush Limbaugh, and Musk has the potential to be the second-coming of Rupert Murdoch (which seems especially unfair since the original Murdoch still lives). I suspect that Musk is too unfocused and narcissistic to fully capitalize on his opportunity, thank dog.

But like Limbaugh before him, Rogan is selling crank conservatism to a new generation by giving Limbaugh’s vicious canards a fresh coat of ironic detachment. When one clown mercifully exits stage right, a new one tumbles out of the car. And so it goes.

Open thread.

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Reader Interactions

115Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    June 19, 2023 at 11:10 am

    Life Money… um … finds a way.

  2. 2.

    hells littlest angel

    June 19, 2023 at 11:14 am

    Rogan is basically the new Rush Limbaugh, and Musk has the potential to be the second-coming of Rupert Murdoch …

     

    Sadly spot on.

  3. 3.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:18 am

    Great post. A public service.

  4. 4.

    Roger Moore

    June 19, 2023 at 11:19 am

    Musk has the potential to be the second-coming of Rupert Murdoch

    I don’t think Musk has the patience to be the new Murdoch.  Say what you will about Murdoch, he spent decades building his power before he really started to flex it.  Musk wants to do everything yesterday, if not sooner.

  5. 5.

    Shalimar

    June 19, 2023 at 11:19 am

    Rogan’s show wasn’t always horrible pre-Spotify millions and pre-Covid.  His shtick was playing an uninformed idiot and letting his guests talk at great length.  Sometimes the guests were good.  Usually the guests were irrelevant if you didn’t care about their field.  Occasionally the guests were terrible, which are the past episodes everyone remembers from those years.

    Since he started actually speaking his own bro-asshole mind a lot more, his guests have mostly been terrible and the good ones generally no longer go on his podcast.  It’s value now is thus less than nothing.

    Edited: to change “usually bad” to “usually irrelevant”, which is more accurate.

  6. 6.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:21 am

    Did they debate how RFK Jr believes that there is something in the water than turns people trans?

    How about his belief that 5G is a plot by Bill Gates to spy on him?

    Fucking low quality nepotism hires. They will be the death of us.

  7. 7.

    Frankensteinbeck

    June 19, 2023 at 11:23 am

    @Roger Moore:

    Musk wants to do everything yesterday, if not sooner.

    Murdoch is also willing to stay out of the spotlight and build an industry of spreading evil.  Musk’s ego will not allow that.  He must personally run and be the face and loudest voice of his bigotry campaign.  That’s a limited strategy already, even without his reeking incompetence.

  8. 8.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:24 am

    I just want all these people to take a solemn vow that they will refuse any medical advances that come out of covid research and investment.

    That’s my challenge to them.

  9. 9.

    hells littlest angel

    June 19, 2023 at 11:25 am

    @Roger Moore: Christopher Guest’s remake of Succession will be a hoot.

  10. 10.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:26 am

    Also- everyone who was vaccinated was supposed to be dead in two years OR all of us are supposed to be alive, but infertile. Has that happened? I’m glad no one listened to these fucking morons and stopped using birth control relying on their podcasts. LOTTA unplanned pregnancies!

  11. 11.

    Amir Khalid

    June 19, 2023 at 11:27 am

    I liked Joe Rogan better when he was challenging foolish people to eat bugs for money.

  12. 12.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:29 am

    @Shalimar:

    The lineup is 100% Right now. I look. It’s Tulsi Gabbard and Glenn Greenwald and the idiot anti woke ninnies. 100% Right wing.

  13. 13.

    eversor

    June 19, 2023 at 11:30 am

    @hells littlest angel:

    I don’t think that’s entirely correct.

    Rogan is not Rush.  Rush was genuinely evil and pretty smart.  Rogan is just a fucking idiot frat boy.   Rogan’s rise to popularity was not spreading hate and he’s not calling for people to be raped or violence acted out, unlike Rush.  Rogan’s stratospheric rise was talking about MMA and inviting war veterans on while getting stoned out of his mind.   In our post 9/11 world that’s where a ton of young men were, mentally.  At the end of the day he’s just a stupid stoner.

    Musk is evil.  The catch is Rupert isn’t stupid.  Musk is stupid.  Extremely stupid.  Musk, like Theil, is focused on making the super rich even richer and that lives now don’t matter compared to the billions of spare faring human minds in some sort of twisted metaverse that can only ever come about if we get full libertarianism now.

    They are both morons who’s great melding of the minds came from Musk going on this show and them getting stoned out of their minds.

    They are also the “very online” type.  This isn’t really a right wing thing.  It’s just a thing.  With a logic of “everything is funny, and the funniest thing is people who don’t realize everything is funny” and crosses with shit posting and the concept of “the least serious people are the people who think they are serious”.  It’s very common on the left as well.

    This is a new thing.  It’s not a rehash of the old.

  14. 14.

    RSA

    June 19, 2023 at 11:30 am

    Musk then piped up in his signature aggressively authoritative moronic fashion to say that Hotez must therefore “hate charity.

    I will donate half of my net worth to charity if you donate half of your net worth to charity, Elon…  What’s that?  Do you hate charity?

  15. 15.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:34 am

    @Amir Khalid:

    It’s amusing what snowflakes they all are. The physician’s big offense was retweeting an article critical of Rogan? That’s what inspired him to sic his ridiculous followers on the guy?

    Big tough guy Rogan (well, little guy, really) can’t handle an article that doesn’t kiss his ass?

  16. 16.

    waspuppet

    June 19, 2023 at 11:34 am

    So when does Elon debate me on a forum of my choosing?

    Seriously, if everyone should be prepared to debate anyone at any time, when’s my shot?

    Oh right. Only they get to decide such things. That’s REAL freedom.

  17. 17.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:36 am

    @eversor:

    It’s an awful, cynical culture that demeans everyone else’s work. Apparently the only work worthy of respect is entertainment. That sucks.

  18. 18.

    randy khan

    June 19, 2023 at 11:37 am

    First, good for Hotez.  There’s no reason to further amplify RFK, Jr.’s dangerous insanity.  And a mere $600K is nowhere near the cost of the damage that would be done by according him the credibility that “debating” an actual expert would give him.  That anti-vaccination stuff actually kills people.

  19. 19.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:37 am

    @eversor:

    No wonder young white men are depressed and failing to launch. These fucking clownish losers are their role models? Reality tv show dopes? Like Trump?

  20. 20.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 11:38 am

    “Don’t miss tomorrow’s show, when Albert Einstein debates Zippy the Pinhead.”

  21. 21.

    Betty Cracker

    June 19, 2023 at 11:39 am

    @eversor: Rogan absolutely is a right-winger now, regardless of his origin story. Musk too. Look at what they do, not what they say.

  22. 22.

    JaneE

    June 19, 2023 at 11:39 am

    Debating assholes is a waste of time.  Sometimes it feels good just to get your own rant off, but that is not productive, just cathartic.

    She should tell them if they cared about charity, it would not come with strings.

  23. 23.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    June 19, 2023 at 11:39 am

    @randy khan: Hotez should say that once RFK publishes a peer-reviewed article, he’d consider debating him.

  24. 24.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:40 am

    @randy khan:

    Plus they picked him because he’s good natured and kind and they’re disgusting, cynical  bullies who contribute nothng worthwhile. No way should he go. The intent is to bully him and make him out to be a fool.

  25. 25.

    Doug R

    June 19, 2023 at 11:41 am

    It’s a wonder wealthy, entitled d-bags like Rogan and Musk haven’t gotten anyone murdered. (Yet.)

    Considering the 1,300,000 Americans dead from COVID, their partial culpability adds up to definitely more than zero.

  26. 26.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 11:42 am

    Rogan is basically the new Rush Limbaugh

    Much more the new Drudge than the new Limbaugh.

  27. 27.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 11:43 am

    I literally cannot imagine being privileged and self centered enough not to be grateful for vaccines.

    Because the work of an idiot realty tv show star and famous-family failure is so much more important and worthwhile than medical research. Can’t imagine the ego that takes.

  28. 28.

    Anyway

    June 19, 2023 at 11:45 am

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Hotez should say that once RFK publishes a peer-reviewed article, he’d consider debating him.

    Deep state! I knew it…

  29. 29.

    oklahomo

    June 19, 2023 at 11:46 am

    @NotMax: I would vote for Zippy before RFK Jr.

  30. 30.

    Suzanne

    June 19, 2023 at 11:47 am

    @Betty Cracker: I’m not sure Rogan is a right-winger, but I sure think he’s the right wing’s useful idiot.

  31. 31.

    oatler

    June 19, 2023 at 11:47 am

    OT but ha,ha, and ha

    https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/lawsuit-alleges-nc-house-speaker-had-affair-sex-with-people-seeking-political-favor/3WHFJ74SXBFDNOIIISFHSFJLB4/

  32. 32.

    kindness

    June 19, 2023 at 11:47 am

    Hotez in his posts documented all the areas that RFK Jr either misrepresented medical studies or completely lied about medical events, yet Joe Rogan thinks that ‘debate’ would settle things.

    Rogan never read what Hotez wrote obviously.

  33. 33.

    Shalimar

    June 19, 2023 at 11:48 am

    @Kay: Hotez has been on Rogan’s show before and is willing to go on it again for the kind of coddled interview he had then.  So Rogan at least knows exactly what Hotez is like.  And he’s choosing to offer this “debate” with Kennedy instead so they can all bully Hotez together.

  34. 34.

    NorthLeft

    June 19, 2023 at 11:49 am

    As others have pointed out, there is no such thing as a “debate” with insane serial liars. Kennedy will make up shit and Hotez will spend all his time just calling out the lies. Fucking pointless.

  35. 35.

    Suzanne

    June 19, 2023 at 11:50 am

    @Kay:

    No wonder young white men are depressed and failing to launch. These fucking clownish losersare their role models? Reality tv show dopes? Like Trump?

    It’s flattering to be told that your problems are the fault of others.

  36. 36.

    Another Scott

    June 19, 2023 at 11:51 am

    PZ Myers (from 2011):

    Why I will not debate William Lane Craig

    Several people have written in response to my previous post suggesting that I debate William Lane Craig. It’s not going to happen. Here’s why.

    1. He hasn’t asked me. I’m a small fish, not even on his radar, so the whole question is pointless.

    2. I may be a small fish, but still, a debate with a professional prevaricator and con artist doesn’t look great on my CV — the same point Dawkins has made.

    3. Let’s be honest, debating is a skill, Craig is well-practiced in it, and I’m not. Craig would probably ‘win’, and that’s the great lie right there: debate is a terrible way to resolve a truth claim, and a great way to flaunt some rarefied rhetorical talent. He could clobber me six ways from Sunday, and what it would show is that I’m a lousy debater, and he’s good at it; but his fans would all say it’s evidence that he’s right.

    4. I much prefer the written argument, because he can’t run away from his own words. One of his skills in the oral debate is the slippery elide; if someone is hammering him on one point, he’ll just skip over it to a new point. I’d rather get his words down in writing, where I can pin him down, stick a knife in the bastard, and twist it for a good long while. Longer and with more detail and rigor than is possible in a verbal tussle.

    So sorry, no debate in the offing (and #1 is really the most relevant issue, anyway).

    Sensible people debating the monsters, especially on their turf, gives them more of the visibility they crave. Plus, as PZ and others point out, debate is about persuasion and appeals to the lizard brain. It’s not about the truth.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  37. 37.

    Steeplejack

    June 19, 2023 at 11:52 am

    Must-see picture.

    Debate me, boats.
    pic.twitter.com/kXLS21b2VL

    — Stone Cold Jane Austen (@AbbyHiggs) June 18, 2023

  38. 38.

    Frankensteinbeck

    June 19, 2023 at 11:53 am

    @eversor:

    Musk, like Theil, is focused on making the super rich even richer

    Gotta correct this part.  Sure, Musk likes making the super rich even richer, but his main interest is culture war trolling, making it socially acceptable to spout the ugliest bigotries, and especially making trans people unable to live their lives because of constant harassment and abuse.

  39. 39.

    Kent

    June 19, 2023 at 11:56 am

    @randy khan:First, good for Hotez.  There’s no reason to further amplify RFK, Jr.’s dangerous insanity.  And a mere $600K is nowhere near the cost of the damage that would be done by according him the credibility that “debating” an actual expert would give him.  That anti-vaccination stuff actually kills people.

    Exactly.  And it isn’t his obligation to make others donate to charity.  If there is a charity worth donating to, Rogan and Musk can make the donations anyway.

    Kennedy is just a low-quality nepotism hire as someone wrote upstream who seems to have gotten brain damaged over time. Were it not for his name he’d be the annoying drunk at the end of the bar talking to himself while thinking that people are actually listening.

  40. 40.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 11:58 am

    @oklahomo

    Truer words were never spake.
    ;)

  41. 41.

    James E Powell

    June 19, 2023 at 11:58 am

    @Doug R:

    Considering the 1,300,000 Americans dead from COVID, their partial culpability adds up to definitely more than zero.

    Pretty sure that right-wingers believe that nobody actually died from COVID, only with COVID.  It was nothing more than cold or flu. Hospitals all over the world were falsifying their cause of death findings in order to . . . I actually don’t know what the hell they claim here . . . something something Fauci, liberals, etc.

    And if anyone did die of COVID, they were old & fat so they deserved it and we want our local sports bar to open back up!

  42. 42.

    The Thin Black Duke

    June 19, 2023 at 11:59 am

    @Kay: “For in the end, [Huxley] was trying to tell us what afflicted the people in ‘Brave New World’ was not that they were laughing instead of thinking, but that they did not know what they were laughing about and why they had stopped thinking.”

    –Neal Postman

  43. 43.

    Steeplejack

    June 19, 2023 at 12:01 pm

    Rogan and Kennedy are getting dragged up and down Twitter. Love to see it. Molly Jong-Fast has started a (fake) campaign to get Rogan to debate her, and it has been picked up by Rick Wilson, Marc Elias and a lot of other people. #joeroganwontdebatemolly

    Hi @joerogan, why won’t you debate me? What are you afraid of? Are you worried about me puncturing your fear factor narrative?

    — Molly Jong-fast (@MollyJongFast) June 18, 2023

  44. 44.

    artem1s

    June 19, 2023 at 12:03 pm

    @eversor:

    Musk, like Theil, is focused on making the super rich even richer

    Rupert, unlike Elmo and TFG also knows how to make money. Yes, he has capitalized on the ignorant and insane believing whatever he prints in his atrocious rags and TV shows. But for the most part he makes more money on his atrocious ventures than he loses.  He doesn’t buy high and then mismanage his operations to the point where he has to sell off at a loss or declare bankruptcy.

  45. 45.

    Suzanne

    June 19, 2023 at 12:03 pm

    @Kent: Hotez should just ask them why they hate charity so much.

  46. 46.

    randy khan

    June 19, 2023 at 12:10 pm

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

     

    Hotez should say that once RFK publishes a peer-reviewed article, he’d consider debating him.

    But nobody will accept his articles because they would topple the Established Order!

  47. 47.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 12:13 pm

    @artem1s

    Headlines we’ll never see.

    “Billionaire declares ‘I’ve made enough, it’s someone else’s turn.'”

  48. 48.

    eversor

    June 19, 2023 at 12:15 pm

    @Kay:

    That internet culture has always been around since the dawn of the internet.  It’s the OG online culture for social spaces since at least the 80s.

    As for young men failing to launch it’s not just young white men and that needs to be recognized cause it’s a huge issue.  If you look at all the issues percolating around (less sex/dating/relationships, dropping incomes, epidemic of lonelyness, deaths of despair) it crosses racial lines.  It’s a really toxic stew out there.  Through human history a bunch of angry and lonely young men doesn’t end well.

    This isn’t isolated to the right either it’s all over the place.  The right is just much better at speaking to it.  The basic notion is “shit’s fucked, it won’t get better just worse, so either go down laughing and hurling eggs at it or burn it all down” and that mindset is spreading all over.

  49. 49.

    Hungry Joe

    June 19, 2023 at 12:15 pm

    Years ago, when I barely knew who Rogan was, I listened to his podcast because he was interviewing Nick Bostrom. Bostrom’s “Are we living in a simulation?” conjecture was fairly new, and he’s a fascinating guy anyway. But Rogan just … could … not … get it. Bostrom was explaining how it’s possible to argue that we’re in a simulation because many, maybe even infinite simulated worlds could be generated by an advanced civilization, while actual life — which generated that advanced simulation — seems to be pretty rare. Rogan kept interrupting him, insisting, “But what if WE are that first, advanced civilization — then we’re not in a simulation, right?” Bostrom would say, Yes, that’s correct, but under the simulation scenario the odds of that are infinitesimal. “But what if we ARE?” Rogan kept saying. Over and over. Couldn’t get past it. Bostrom, apparently a patient man, got a little frustrated but remained calm. I did not.

  50. 50.

    Baud

    June 19, 2023 at 12:16 pm

    @Another Scott:

    Let’s be honest, debating is a skill, Craig is well-practiced in it, and I’m not.

     
    Not enough people understand that.

  51. 51.

    Another Scott

    June 19, 2023 at 12:17 pm

    ICYMI, Kay makes a great point downstairs…:

    Kay

    JUNE 19, 2023 AT 9:06 AM

    My daughter wants someone to ask RFK Jr about the HPV vaccine- it’s the primary way to reduce cervical cancer. It will save millions of womens lives – fewer lives in anti vaxx GOP states because fewer people get it.

    Ask RFK Jr and Elon Musk and Joe Rogan and the rest of the anti -vaxx millionaires and billionaires about the cancer vaccine.

    This vaccine can prevent most cases of cervical cancer if the vaccine is given before girls or women are exposed to the virus. This vaccine can also prevent vaginal and vulvar cancer. In addition, the vaccine can prevent genital warts, anal cancers, and mouth, throat, head and neck cancers in women and men.

    In theory, vaccinating boys against the types of HPV associated with cervical cancer might also help protect girls from the virus by possibly decreasing transmission.

    Of course, there are 12-sigma stories in the RWNJ press about people dying after the vaccine, so it really isn’t productive to try to debate them about it. It’s not about the truth.

    But the point is, womens’ and girls’ health is elided from the RWNJ arguments about this stuff.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  52. 52.

    Jay

    June 19, 2023 at 12:19 pm

    Last place I worked, one of the truck drivers, (we had our own delivery systems) always spouted CT bullshit. He was seriously “antivax”,

    I tried reasoning with him one time, that did not work.

    The last time he came in and was spouting the latest Covid CT bullshit, I asked, “can I see what’s in your wallet?”, (it’s an ad campaign here for a Credit Card company),

    He handed over is wallet and I just pulled out and threw his vax cards on the table, (here up until recently, if you got vaxxed for covid, you got a card, a back up or replacement for the app, for situations where you had to be vaxxed to enter or work).

    Yup, fully vaxxed, all 3 (at the time).

    Sociopath.

    Never talked to me again.

  53. 53.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 12:21 pm

    @Another Scott

    “Ah don’t cotton to mah boys being involved in any trans mission.”
    – Bubba McBubbaface
    //

  54. 54.

    eversor

    June 19, 2023 at 12:23 pm

    @artem1s:

    Rupert has a coherent ideology.  Musk just blurts out what ever will create the biggest shit show.

  55. 55.

    Baud

    June 19, 2023 at 12:25 pm

    I’d pay to watch a chimpanzee debate RFK, Jr.

  56. 56.

    Mai Naem mobile

    June 19, 2023 at 12:26 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: i believe one of Elmo’s kids is trans or non binary and it bothers the crap out of him. It might be the same one who doesn’t want to use Musk as his last name. You can imagine how that goes down with a narcissist like Elmo.

  57. 57.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 12:29 pm

    @Buad

    “Not about to debate a known … Cheetah*.”
    ;)

    *said with exaggerated Boston accent

  58. 58.

    West of the Rockies

    June 19, 2023 at 12:30 pm

    So, related to Muskrat, are the wheels “falling of Twitter” yet?  We’ve heard that as an apparatus or platform, it’s broken and crumbling…

    Yet it’s still running.

    Anyone here able to hazard a guess or assessment?  Is Twitter beginning to turn to ash like Voldemort outside Hogwarts?  Oh, if only that happened to Musk and Rogan and Carlson…

  59. 59.

    Delk

    June 19, 2023 at 12:31 pm

    Oooohhhh… $600,000.00! What does that convert to in billionaire money? Six cents? Musk made over 600 grand while I was typing this. Who exactly hates charity?

  60. 60.

    Steeplejack

    June 19, 2023 at 12:31 pm

    @EugeneShats: “I challenge @Kasparov63 to debate me on chess . . . and if he refuses, despite my offer of $100, that’s because he is afraid and knows I’m a better player.”

    @Kasparov63:

    Lol. It’s an apt comparison. Whether Ukraine or vaccines, demands to debate the undebatable are similar to the abuse of polls questioning known facts. The goal is to create doubt and fabricate legitimacy for positions that cannot earn it.

    Propagandists and hucksters learned long ago that a bald lie like “vaccines don’t work” is less effective than “do vaccines work?” The latter gives appearance of an unknown, of open-mindedness. It’s manipulation, an attempt to destroy truth.

    Speaking from personal experience, note that soft methods like propaganda are replaced by hard methods like censorship & violence as soon as it is deemed feasible. People with no regard for the truth rarely have any regard for the other pillars of a free society.

  61. 61.

    AM in NC

    June 19, 2023 at 12:33 pm

    You can basically print money if you are an angry, loud-mouthed, middle aged, white guy who is willing to go on the air and tell aggrieved  middle aged white guys that they are the most put-upon people in the history of the universe, and that everything in America and across the globe would be 1000% perfect if it weren’t for all the advantages being given to the wimminz and blahs, amirite?

    It would be laughable in its pathetic-ness if it weren’t such a tragically potent political force.

    Grow the fuck up Joe Rogan. And the rest of you narcissistic attention-sucks too.

  62. 62.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    June 19, 2023 at 12:36 pm

    God bless Dr. Peter Hotez for his valuable work and for the essential information he provided through numerous tv appearances during the worst days of COVID.

    As for RFK Jr, Joe Rogan, and Elon Musk, they’re a confederacy of scumbags.

  63. 63.

    Steeplejack

    June 19, 2023 at 12:37 pm

    @Mai Naem mobile:

    “Can’t win them all!” ♥ –@elonmusk

    Happy Father’s Day! ☺
    https://t.co/a9bHgxpPUo pic.twitter.com/O6Fn8C2Fk6

    — Fort Gayne Crime Erin 👽🌈🖤 (@CriminalUnionFW) June 18, 2023

  64. 64.

    Brachiator

    June 19, 2023 at 12:38 pm

    But like Limbaugh before him, Rogan is selling crank conservatism to a new generation by giving Limbaugh’s vicious canards a fresh coat of ironic detachment. When one clown mercifully exits stage right, a new one tumbles out of the car.

    I have only seen video clips of Rogan. I don’t think I have the patience to watch an entire show. But he’s no Limbaugh. Rogan seems to be peddling ignorant white guy anti-intellectualism with a dash of libertarian froo froo. He is a distant offshoot of the worst of the old Howard Stern radio shows, mixed with the UFO and conspiracy nonsense of Art Bell.

    I don’t know if other countries have this kind of crap, but it seems to be a mainstay of American TV and radio. Someone always comes along to fill the media vacuum.

    ETA. I’m not sure what Musk’s game is. Rupert Murdoch is an old long time media baron who uses his media properties to actively subvert democracy. But Murdoch loves expanding the range and influence of his media empire.

    Musk is not as focused, nor is he anywhere near as competent at building or running a business, let alone a business empire.

  65. 65.

    Another Scott

    June 19, 2023 at 12:39 pm

    @West of the Rockies: Look for Musk to sell a bunch of Tesla stock to make the 3rd interest payment this year (supposedly around $300M end of January, another (unspecified amount) around the end of April) around the end of July or early August.  If that happens, then it will be another sign that Twitter X Corp is  still bleeding cash.

    Twitter still running is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it to survive going forward.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  66. 66.

    eversor

    June 19, 2023 at 12:40 pm

    @AM in NC:

    Except their audience is not “middle aged white guys” at all.  Their audience is young adult and mid teens male and it’s not isolated to white males.

  67. 67.

    Mai Naem mobile

    June 19, 2023 at 12:41 pm

    @eversor: I’ve dealt with a bunch of younger guys like this at work. Here in Arizona I can tell you, the crappy K-12 schooling system doesn’t help. Crappy charter schools with shitty standards and no support staff like school counselors  have taken over. Add lots of first generation immigrant parents who  often don’t understand the system.  Then the cost of post secondary education kicks in and these young adults are supposed to go to college/voc ed training and pay for living expenses at the same time. No wonder so many end up in crappy dead end and/or physically demanding(meaning they’ll be lucky if they get a healthy 20 years on the job) jobs.

  68. 68.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 12:42 pm

    @West of the Rockies

    Analogous in many ways to the decline, disintegration and eventual demise of Packard as a going concern.

    (The automotive company; not speaking of Hewelett-Packard, a whole ‘nother animule.)

  69. 69.

    AM in NC

    June 19, 2023 at 12:42 pm

    @oatler: Couldn’t happen to an assholier asshole.

  70. 70.

    Tony Jay

    June 19, 2023 at 12:49 pm

    If it’s about charity then the faux-jock punks should declare victory and donate the $600,000 dollars. They ‘won’ didn’t they? The bad science-nerd was too scared to go on their stupid show and get shown up by the razor-brained freethinker with the Liberal name, wasn’t he?

    Why won’t they just take the ‘win’ and cap it off by donating the money they say they were willing to donate to charity, to charity?

    They love charity, right? That’s what this is about, right? If Hotez is supposed to be such a terrible coward and it’s bad that he wouldn’t dance to the beat of their drum-machine to get that money for charity, what does it say about those bros that they dangled this money up there and then repocketed it because, suddenly, charity isn’t that worthy anymore?

    They’re not just big mouthed arseholes, are they? That would be terrible.

  71. 71.

    Betty Cracker

    June 19, 2023 at 12:54 pm

    As for whether Rogan and Musk can be accurately described as right-wingers, I think it’s fair to call them that as long as they are peddling propaganda for right-wing authoritarians like Trump and/or DeSantis. Speculating on how they got That Way can be interesting, as much as tracing any villain’s origin story is interesting, but I’m not sure it matters that much for practical purposes.

  72. 72.

    cope

    June 19, 2023 at 12:57 pm

    As per the OT designation, I think we can all be grateful we are not on OceanGate’s submersible Titan which is missing during a dive to the Titanic.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872

  73. 73.

    JaySinWA

    June 19, 2023 at 1:00 pm

    @Roger Moore: I think Jeff Bezos has a better chance of becoming Murdoch than Musk. Not as impetuous and stealthier.

    And the NYTimes Sultzbergers are kind of the proto Murdoch IMHO.

  74. 74.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 1:04 pm

    @cope

    Paws crossed for a positive outcome.

    Recently re-watched a ludicrous film with a good cast, Raise the Titanic.
    ;)

  75. 75.

    Betty Cracker

    June 19, 2023 at 1:04 pm

    @cope: Yikes. I hope they can recover the crew and sub safely, but that’s probably a tall order given the depth. Also, I did not realize the location of the wreck was discovered in 1985! 

  76. 76.

    Brachiator

    June 19, 2023 at 1:05 pm

    @West of the Rockies:

    Anyone here able to hazard a guess or assessment?  Is Twitter beginning to turn to ash like Voldemort outside Hogwarts?

    I don’t think that Twitter has ever been profitable. It’s continued existence may have been in doubt even before Musk started interfering with the company.

  77. 77.

    Marc

    June 19, 2023 at 1:09 pm

    @NotMax: The automotive company; not speaking of Hewelett-Packard, a whole ‘nother animule.

    Of course, Hewlett-Packard is now well into its decline, disintegration and eventual demise phase.  I started my sort of career doing contract software development at Digital Equipment Corporation, which a few years later disintegrated and got bought out by Compaq Computer, which in turn disintegrated and got bought out by HP.  After that, I started doing contract software for Sun Microsystems, which eventually disintegrated and got bought out by Oracle.  My final contract software gig ended a year ago at HP.  I think the lesson here is don’t hire me for contract software development, unless you want your company to blow up ;^)

  78. 78.

    Gin & Tonic

    June 19, 2023 at 1:11 pm

    @Jay: Just like RFK Jr’s kids are all vaxxed.

  79. 79.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 1:18 pm

    @Marc

    Will keep that in mind once BJdigicomputronix finds distress-priced office space.

    “Today, Silicon Valley. Tomorrow, Pismo Beach!”
    :)

  80. 80.

    cope

    June 19, 2023 at 1:21 pm

    @NotMax: I read the book when it came out but never saw the movie.

    I sure hope the outcome is good. The article mentions that the submersible carries a sufficient supply of air to stay underwater for four days.

  81. 81.

    Another Scott

    June 19, 2023 at 1:21 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Your tax dollars at work.  ;-)

    Popular Mechanics:

    An oceanographer and Navy officer, Ballard was building an underwater research vessel to realize his lifelong dream of finding the Titanic. Unable to source adequate funding for the project, he approached the Navy for help. Deputy Chief of Naval Operations Ronald Thunman was receptive, but wanted to bargain: The Navy would allow Ballard to hunt for the Titanic if he promised to find the Thresher and the Scorpion, two U.S. nuclear submarines that were sitting on Atlantic ocean floor.

    “They did not want the world to know that, so I had to have a cover story,” Ballard told CNN.

    […]

    The mission was billed purely as a hunt for the Titanic, and media was kept entirely in the dark. The cover didn’t provide much relief on the ocean floor, though: After locating and examining both submarines, Ballard’s team only had 12 days to find the Titanic and record their findings.

    […]

    My understanding (which may be wrong) was that they pretty much knew where the Titanic had to be, it just took tools that could handle the depth to confirm it.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  82. 82.

    Redshift

    June 19, 2023 at 1:22 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Wondering whether they’re “really” right wingers is like the old thing of saying TFG’s lies shouldn’t be called lies because we didn’t know if he really believed what he was saying.

    If you advocate for right wing issues and causes, you’re a right wing asshole. If you don’t actually believe what you’re saying, you’re a lying right wing asshole. That’s the only difference.

  83. 83.

    Sister Golden Bear

    June 19, 2023 at 1:24 pm

    @Mai Naem mobile: His daughter is trans, and disowned him — to the point of changing her last name, because she doesn’t want to be associated with him at all. And needless to say, she gave up any chance of inheriting any part of the fortune that may be left. So it’s pretty safe to assume his transphobic behavior predated that. Also, Musk’s ex is/was dating a trans woman. I don’t remember the exact timing of whether the ex specifically left him for the trans woman.

    So while they aren’t the root of his transphobia, they certainly seem be factors in his escalation of it.

  84. 84.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 1:26 pm

    @cope

    Actually a sort of a fun watch, in a “check your brain at the door” way if only to see the entirety of the ensemble trying to act so earnest without breaking character. Expect many phone calls excoriating their agents ensued.

    Suppose should not the movie is from 1980.

  85. 85.

    AM in NC

    June 19, 2023 at 1:27 pm

    @eversor:   Yeah, and we women are sick of it.  We’ve been shut out of jobs, physically abused, paid less for the same work, regarded as literal property for millennia, and women don’t burn shit down because we don’t get all the fucking toys.

    Sack the fuck up and go to school, grind it out in a boring job, cook, clean and do your share of the work at your house, and be a decent and labor-giving father to your kids if you make the choice to have them.   And stop complaining that you finally have to do what the other half of the population has had to do since for-fucking-ever. And has done it, again, without burning shit to the ground.

    Joe Rogan and Musk and the man babies can suck it.

    /rant

  86. 86.

    Ruckus

    June 19, 2023 at 1:31 pm

    @Kay:

    Can’t imagine the ego that takes.

    Well yeah. Seeing as how an ego that big is unmanageable, worse than useless, and annoying as (whatever really obnoxious swear word you like), and creates a trail of stupid wherever it goes.

  87. 87.

    NotMax

    June 19, 2023 at 1:31 pm

    #84:

    Suppose should not = Suppose should note

  88. 88.

    James E Powell

    June 19, 2023 at 1:54 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Rogan isn’t Limbaugh because he lets his guests do the right-wing propaganda while he plays the role of the “just asking” audience member. He is also speaking to a different generation.

    But he is similar in that his show has become a gathering place for ignorant, resentful white people.

  89. 89.

    James E Powell

    June 19, 2023 at 1:57 pm

    @Marc:

    My older brother’s career went DEC, Sun, Cisco, retirement. All three giants.

  90. 90.

    James E Powell

    June 19, 2023 at 1:58 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    If that’s the case – and I have no reason to doubt you – that fact should be mentioned every time he appears.

  91. 91.

    Almost Retired

    June 19, 2023 at 2:09 pm

    @Baud: Especially if the subject were evolution…

  92. 92.

    Kay

    June 19, 2023 at 2:24 pm

    @eversor:

    Musk just blurts out what ever will create the biggest shit show.

    Ah, I see some are still in the “not really” stage. Not really a bigot, not really anti trans, not really anti vaxx and pro authoritarian leaders. Like political media with Donald Trump. Remember when Donald Trump was “pro choice”?

    How many time do we have to go thru this before we just believe what these people say? He all but endorsed Ron DeSantis. He has an ideology.

  93. 93.

    Roger Moore

    June 19, 2023 at 2:42 pm

    @artem1s: ​
     

    Rupert, unlike Elmo and TFG also knows how to make money.

    I don’t think that’s fair. Musk and Rogan certainly do know how to make money. Musk may have started with a silver spoon in his mouth, but so did Murdoch. And Musk has most definitely grown his fortune tremendously. Musk may not know how to make money specifically in media, but he understands the basics of making money in general. He’s just decided to set a big pile of his on fire in order to control Twitter.

  94. 94.

    Betty Cracker

    June 19, 2023 at 2:48 pm

    @Kay: Yep. From an 11/26/22 Reuters report via MSNBC:

    Billionaire Elon Musk said on Friday he would support Ron DeSantis in 2024 if the Florida governor, who recently coasted to a second term, were to run for president…

    “My preference for the 2024 presidency is someone sensible and centrist. I had hoped that would the case for the Biden administration, but have been disappointed so far,” Musk said on Twitter.

    “Yes,” he replied in a tweet when asked if he would support DeSantis in 2024.

    Centrist Ron DeSantis! Here’s Rogan in March 2023 (NYP):

    “I would vote for [former President Donald] Trump before I’d vote for Biden. Just ‘cause I think with Biden, like he’s gone,” Rogan said. “Like, you know, he’s gone. You’re gonna be relying on his cabinet. And I knew his cabinet would be this f–king sideshow of diversity — which is exactly what it is.”

    Uncanny how these non-right-wingers’ random musings just happen to line up with the views of random people like Ronna McDaniel or “Moms for Liberty” or Christopher Rufo.

  95. 95.

    Mai Naem mobile

    June 19, 2023 at 3:15 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Elmo will support whoever looks like will win the GOP nomination and I believe if it looks like the Dems will win again he’ll throw his support behind whatever third party is the flavor of the month close to the election.

  96. 96.

    wombat probability cloud

    June 19, 2023 at 3:21 pm

    @NotMax: Might actually be a good discussion. Zippy was pretty zen and I could see a meeting of the minds.

  97. 97.

    Mai Naem mobile

    June 19, 2023 at 3:22 pm

    I’ve seen a few minutes of a couple of Roman’s shows and, honestly, I don’t get the appeal. It sounds like two guys who are on their way to getting stone drunk –  at the point where they’re just spouting off stupid stuff not at the point  where they’re just talking total fantastical garbage. Somebody on YouTube does a parody of Joe Rogan’s show. It’s so good I thought it was Joe Rogan’s show. I honestly wouldn’t recognize Joe Rogan if I met him in an elevator. Nothing that stands out about him.

  98. 98.

    Tony Jay

    June 19, 2023 at 3:34 pm

    My manager and his son are both Rogan fans. The son is okay and in that “I don’t do politics” group that just likes people getting hit in the nuts on Tik Tok. His dad is an ex-military Tory voter who reads the Daily Express and loves spending hours online down conspiracy theory rabbit holes.

    I’m not entirely shocked they both like Rogan’s show.

  99. 99.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    June 19, 2023 at 3:34 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    You’re gonna be relying on his cabinet. And I knew his cabinet would be this f–king sideshow of diversity — which is exactly what it is.”

    yeah, he’s not a fucking racist, not at all. he just can’t imagine competent members of minority groups doing good work.

    FFS.

  100. 100.

    evodevo

    June 19, 2023 at 3:50 pm

    Many geneticists and evolution scientists have made the mistake of debating Creationists/preachers/Dinesh D’oh…it never works, and most of them have learned their lesson.  Evidently Peter Hotez has learned too lol

  101. 101.

    eversor

    June 19, 2023 at 3:53 pm

    @AM in NC:

    I mean I have a good job and I do most of the chores anyways.  But then again I’m an upper middle class urban professional.  I have a happy relationship and I’m good looking.  None of that changes that young men are actually in crisis.

    Many of them due to circumstances out of their control can’t get to school or are in a system that offers shitty schools.  Since they can’t make an income the relationship is out.  Or they are just socially awkward.  Your rant is on the level of a tech bro yelling at the homeless “learn to code” and then hurling a matcha latte at them.

  102. 102.

    Roger Moore

    June 19, 2023 at 3:59 pm

    @Brachiator:

    I don’t think that Twitter has ever been profitable.

    My understanding is that Twitter was just starting to stray into the black at the time Musk bought them.  The probably could have remained a moderately profitable business if they had been left to it, but there was no way they were going to be profitable enough to pay the interest payments Musk saddled them with.  Of course he’s also blown up their advertising revenue without being able to make up for it with subscriptions.

  103. 103.

    Roger Moore

    June 19, 2023 at 4:09 pm

    @AM in NC:

    I think you can take it a couple of ways.  Yes, it’s true that part of the problem is male entitlement.  These guys expect the world to be handed to them on a platter, and they’re mostly upset that it hasn’t been.  At the same time, working class men do have some real grievances.

    There have been two big forces in our society that have the potential to affect someone’s earnings.  One is the shift of everything to the privileged few.  Earnings for college graduates haven’t grown a lot, and those for working class people have completely stagnated or even gotten worse.  At the same time, there’s been an equalizing force, in that women and minorities have been making up ground relative to white men.  Working class men, especially working class white men, have been on the losing side of both trends.

    Obviously, I think they should be more unhappy that more and more is going to the ultra rich, and that’s starving everyone else.  But I can understand the crabs in a pot mentality, where working class men take out their frustrations on the people they see catching up to them rather than the people so far ahead of them they can’t even see them.  It’s not a fair point of view, but it’s a comprehensible one.

  104. 104.

    Anyway

    June 19, 2023 at 4:15 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Obviously, I think they [working class white men] should be more unhappy that more and more is going to the ultra rich, and that’s starving everyone else.  But I can understand the crabs in a pot mentality, where working class men take out their frustrations on the people they see catching up to them rather than the people so far ahead of them they can’t even see them.

    Well said!

  105. 105.

    Bill Arnold

    June 19, 2023 at 4:29 pm

    @Mai Naem mobile:

    Elmo will support whoever looks like will win the GOP nomination and I believe if it looks like the Dems will win again he’ll throw his support behind whatever third party is the flavor of the month close to the election.

    Chances are still strong that weeks prior to the 2024 election, Elmo will start gaming the twitter tweet-ranking algorithm to boost Republican-friendly accounts (and tweets) and unboost Democrat-friendly accounts (and tweets). If they do this, he (they) will get caught. Detection of thumb-on-scale cheating using statistical methods is straightforward, and odds are quite good that at least one engineer would be offended and leak details.

  106. 106.

    Bill Arnold

    June 19, 2023 at 4:33 pm

    @evodevo:

    Many geneticists and evolution scientists have made the mistake of debating Creationists/preachers/Dinesh D’oh…it never works,

    I’d consider going on the set with a large gong, which I’d wack hard every time the opponent lied. Would need to arrange to be able to hear the opponent continuing to lie through the near-constant gong noises.

  107. 107.

    Tony G

    June 19, 2023 at 4:37 pm

    @James E Powell: That’s right.  Gary Null — one of the original anti-vaxxers — still claims on his radio show — more than three years after the start of the pandemic — that the vast majority of covid deaths were caused by “other factors” rather than by covid.  The ideology of these monsters depends upon denying the deaths of about 1.3 million Americans.  RFK Junior is, of course, a frequent guess on Null’s show.  These people and their idiot followers live in their own reality.

  108. 108.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    June 19, 2023 at 4:41 pm

    Joe Rogan sucked as a comedian and sucks harder as a right wing talk show shithead. He hit gold selling his stupid lines of thought (such as they are) to conservative knuckle-dragging incels and wifebeaters. Dennis Miller is a better comedian and he sucks donkey balls.

    At least Dennis is too highbrow for his audience so they pretty much ignore him…lol!

  109. 109.

    AM in NC

    June 19, 2023 at 4:56 pm

    @eversor: Yes, I agree with a lot of what you said, despite my rant. I’m just frustrated.

    I HATE the forces (largely controlled by rich old men) that have put the squeeze on working class of all races and genders.

    I just think women and non-whites seem to have a better handle on  who the real malefactors are and whom to fight against. And that’s not an accident.

    With my husband, I am raising two young men, and I know it’s hard out there for a young man, particularly a non-college-educated young men. I want to support them all I can, but at some point when these guys are causing so much harm, you gotta make them be at least somewhat responsible for their behavior. Or at least make them somewhat responsible for being unwilling to learn the facts about who has made their lives harder.

    If they weren’t doing so.much.harm. to others, I would have all the sympathy in the world.  As it is, I fight for their economic futures more than they do and vote to raise MY taxes so they can have a better life.

    It’s their violence against the rest of us I take issue with. Lots of groups ave suffered far worse than young (mostly white) men but they haven’t gone on rampages like so many in this group feel uniquely entitled to do.

  110. 110.

    mrmoshpotato

    June 19, 2023 at 5:21 pm

    Joe Rogan can fuck himself into the Sun.

  111. 111.

    SenyorDave

    June 19, 2023 at 5:28 pm

    Musk and Rogan are both white nationalists.  Rogan couches it with humor, but at the core they both are from the “life was so much better when us white dudes could do whatever the fuck we want with no repercussions”.   That’s what guys like them hate about “cancel culture”.  They are upset that word have consequences.
    What is depressing about Musk is that if anyone other than a white male acted the way he does they would be raked over the coals.  10 kids by multiple partners.  He’s now stridently anti-trans even though he has a trans child (who has made it known that she wants no relationship with Musk).  Yeah, he’s a real admirable guy.

  112. 112.

    scav

    June 19, 2023 at 5:52 pm

    I think it’s also funny that all the nostalgic white male fantasists actually believe they’d be the unfettered have-it-all easy-street kings if only things went back to “what they once were”.  Pish.  a) the past wasn’t as advertised, b) the vast preponderance of  them would be still be drawing the short straw on rights and means and etc, and likely unsatisfied with it — they’d just be slightly ahead of women and “minorities” which they sort of are now, only less officially.  And the big boys would still sneer down their noses at them, if in fact they bothered to look.  If the past was so wonderful, it wouldn’t have been so eager for change.

  113. 113.

    Brachiator

    June 19, 2023 at 6:03 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Obviously, I think they should be more unhappy that more and more is going to the ultra rich, and that’s starving everyone else.  But I can understand the crabs in a pot mentality, where working class men take out their frustrations on the people they see catching up to them rather than the people so far ahead of them they can’t even see them.

    I understand your point, and accept that many economists and historians present it in the same way, but I reject the idea that working class means white men.

    Hell, the number of formerly despised European immigrants who became “white” and were accepted into the working class exceeds the black population.

    And even though black and now Latino people are often pitted against white working class people, there is no simple zero sum game at play here. Black success is part of American success, not anything in opposition.

    The same is true of women, but here I acknowledge that things are more complicated because of the social relationship of men and women, and the previous social expectation that men are “supposed” to take care of women.

     

    ETA. There are a number of countries where there is a controlling elite and a small sliver of a middle class, with the majority of the population consigned to misery and poverty. There are probably a good number of plutocrats who would be happy to see this model become the American norm.

  114. 114.

    RevRick

    June 19, 2023 at 10:22 pm

    Umberto Eco, in his 1995 essay on “Ur-fascism”, says that some of the hallmarks typical of fascism are anti-education, because it prefers action to reflection, and the cult of heroism, which is really a death cult. (The GOP refusal to wear masks and get vaccinated is ample evidence).

  115. 115.

    Hob

    June 19, 2023 at 10:47 pm

    @Hungry Joe: I agree that Rogan is a fool, but the interviewee was not really making a good point there and it wouldn’t have been better if Rogan did “get it.” That’s just a misrepresentation of what “odds” mean. You could just as well say that since there have been or could be a near-infinite number of other real or hypothetical creatures who are not me, it’s suspiciously unlikely for me to be me.

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