Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Innocent people do not delay justice.

Also, are you sure you want people to rate your comments?

Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!

Disagreements are healthy; personal attacks are not.

Conservatism: there are people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

the 10% who apparently lack object permanence

Consistently wrong since 2002

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

“In this country American means white. everybody else has to hyphenate.”

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

These are not very smart people, and things got out of hand.

The revolution will be supervised.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

A norm that restrains only one side really is not a norm – it is a trap.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

A tremendous foreign policy asset… to all of our adversaries.

Today’s gop: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

Optimism opens the door to great things.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / ‘Pervasive and Destabilizing Lies’

‘Pervasive and Destabilizing Lies’

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I think there was a West Wing episode where one of the White House aides noticed a federal judge was issuing opinions in iambic pentameter. He (the judge) probably figured nobody would notice.

I’m reading the latest Trump indictment, and while it’s not in iambic pentameter, it has poetry.

The document accuses Trump of grounding the three criminal conspiracies for which he’s charged on mistrust created by the “pervasive and destabilizing lies” Trump told about election fraud. When I read those words, I recalled the dumb “stop the steal” rallies on the courthouse lawn in my nowhere little town.

The best poetry evokes images and puts you in the moment. I salute the use of those on-point adjectives.

My guess is Trump is unimpressed with the wordsmithing because he hasn’t read the indictment. Flunkies probably had to create a deck with no more than three bullets per page and one graphic on each.

Maybe Trump is interested in numerology, as many crackpots are? If so, perhaps the fact that it’s a 45-page indictment will catch his piggy little eye. Or, as someone in comments noted,* that he now faces a total of 45 federal counts.

Open thread.

*I haven’t double-checked, so maybe that’s wrong. But it’s a poetic touch if true. 

Reader Interactions

394Comments

  2. 2.

    raven

    “Sometimes American politics feels like a spirited book club where no one’s read the book. ” He actually said it in 2019 as well as last night.

  4. 4.

    Old School

    I don’t think the indictment is much of a scandal.  I haven’t seen anyone add a “-gate” suffix to it yet.

  5. 5.

    narya

    The other thing that amused me last night was that someone on MSNBC dubbed it a “shouting” indictment, rather than a speaking indictment.

  7. 7.

    Hildebrand

    One of the Pod Save America guys mockingly noted that Smith is a ‘scab/strike breaker’ because his writing is so good.  And it is, he tells the story so clearly, so effectively, it’s like the January 6 commission all over again – these folks just know what they are doing, and they are among some of the best communicators we have seen in government for some time.

  8. 8.

    Gvg

    I don’t care about 45 indictments because i don’t think we are done yet. He hasn’t been charged with everything yet. I am not sure he has even quit committing more crimes.

  10. 10.

    Old Man Shadow

    I truly hope Smith and company prove me wrong and the system can hold this rogue domestic terrorist accountable for his crimes against the nation and our ideals.

    And I hope they prove me wrong and Trump does go to prison along with his conspirators.

    And I hope they are smart enough to realize that if he is sent to prison, that prison will become a target for deranged supporters hoping to help him escape and that there might be sympathizers within the law enforcement people running that prison.

  13. 13.

    ...now I try to be amused

    Maybe Trump is interested in numerology, as many crackpots are? If so, perhaps the fact that it’s a 45-page indictment will catch his piggy little eye. Or, as someone in comments noted,* that he now faces a total of 45 federal counts.

    In an earlier time someone close to Trump would have left a [*ahem*] on his desk by now.

  15. 15.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @patrick II: not a doubt in my mind that Walt Nauta and other witnesses are the object of on-going witness tampering, by trump, his kids, his lawyers….. I don’t know how much of that can or will be recorded

  17. 17.

    Old School

    The indictment means the former president now faces 78 felony charges in total, spread across three cases, with Trump facing another criminal investigation into his efforts to reverse the election outcome in Georgia.

  19. 19.

    Immanentize

    Personally, trochaic octameter best suits my writing style.

    Trump! A man who understood naught.
    Lost a prize with violence sought,
    Ran his mouth ’til charges Jack brought.
    Jail and prison? Crimin’ Trump caught.

  20. 20.

    p.a.

    The best thing abt tRump’s continuous criming is his continuous real-time admissions and brags abt his criming.  If there are degrees of Dunning-Kruger they should name the worst after tRump.

  23. 23.

    Brachiator

    I’m reading the latest Trump indictment, and while it’s not in iambic pentameter, it has poetry

    We need Trump limericks.

    There once was a grifter named Trump
    Who on this great country did dump
    But he soon was indicted
    And all were excited
    To see Trump get kicked in his rump

  26. 26.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    So in “All The President’s Men II”, who plays what part?

  28. 28.

    dww44

    @Alison Rose: Based on comments in some of last night’s threads, I believe that Chris Hayes has moved to the head of the line as being the most disliked MSNBC host among the commentariat here.

  33. 33.

    Anyway

    @dww44: Based on comments in some of last night’s threads, I believe that Chris Hayes has moved to the head of the line as being the most disliked MSNBC host among the commentariat here.

    I haven’t watched Hayes much (and skipped TV yesterday) – my most disliked MSNBC host is Alex Wagner. I checked her out a few times after she took over the 9pm slot and could only bear to watch a few minutes. Style, content, choice of topics — everything is awful.

  36. 36.

    Immanentize

    @dww44: The “Garland must do something now” crowd lost their audience when something was done. But they have decided to double down with that stupid hot take and are now playing the back up  long game of criticizing Dems:

    “Trump would have lost if Garland and Biden had indicted Trump sooner!!”

  38. 38.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @dww44: I don’t dislike Hayes, but I take all of his takes with a large Tara Reade shaped grain of salt. He’s book-smart, but inside of him, and not that deep down, is a Brown sophomore wearing a “Not A Dime’s Worth of Difference” T-shirt

  39. 39.

    Alison Rose

    @dww44: Which is a bit of a shame to me because, while yes he can be petulant sometimes, he often offers very strong commentary against the GOP and their bullshit. Plus he wrote one of my favorite articles ever, so I give him a bit of leeway.

  43. 43.

    Brachiator

    @dww44:

    Based on comments in some of last night’s threads, I believe that Chris Hayes has moved to the head of the line as being the most disliked MSNBC host among the commentariat here.

    Has he changed his views or something. I don’t watch many news shows or pay attention to hosts, but I have seen him mostly go after Trump and the GOP on the few episodes I’ve seen.

  44. 44.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    Rudy Giuliani in Vile New Audio Transcripts: ‘Jewish Men Have Small Cocks

    “Jewish men have small cocks because they can’t use them after they get married,” Giuliani said, according to the transcript. “Whereas the Italian use them all their lives so they get bigger.”

    Giuliani railed against how Jewish people “want to go through that freaking Passover all the time” and how they should “get over the Passover” because it was 3,000 years ago. “OK, the Red Sea parted,” the transcript reads. “Big deal. Not the first time that happened.”

    Giuliani doesn’t elaborate on other instances when the Red Sea was parted.

    The transcripts also feature Giuliani discussing which celebrities are Republican. Giuliani is trying to think of someone in particular and Dunphy volunteers that Matt Damon is “very liberal.”

    “Matt Damon is a fag,” Giuliani replies. “Matt Damon is also 5’2″, eyes are blue. Coochi-coochie-coochie-coo.”
    …
    Then there are the lewd comments directed toward Dunphy. “Come here, big tits,” Giuliani says on one occasion, according to the transcript. “Come here, big tits. Your tits belong to me. Give them to me [indiscernable]. I want to claim my tits. I want to claim my tits. I want to claim my tits. These are my tits.”
    …
    Ted Goodman, a spokesman for Giuliani, said in a statement to Rolling Stone that the relationship with Dunphy was “consensual” and questioned Dunphy’s motivations in filing the lawsuit. “It’s disappointing to see some so-called ‘journalists’ stoop so low with these smears and attacks against a man who has dedicated his life to serving others,” he added. “Mayor Giuliani cleaned up the streets of New York City, took down the Mafia and comforted the nation following September 11th.”

  47. 47.

    patrick II

    @Old School:

    -gate is a suffix meant to attach criminal intent to an otherwise innocent word   — Watergate.

    Insurrectiongate would be redundant.

  49. 49.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    Rudy’s spokesman really shouldn’t have taken “noun-verb-9/11” literally.

  51. 51.

    HumboldtBlue

    Of all the galling things about this ever-galling asshole is the privilege on display. Trump SHOULD be in custody for the Natsec documents he kept and flashed around like trophies, but he’s not, anyone else would be, and it’s because the privilege of having been president and wealth.

  52. 52.

    different-church-lady

    @satby: This is why I’m glad Twitter is dead — who knew he did valuable long-form content when all anyone would link is his Tweets?

  53. 53.

    narya

    @dww44: I’m the outlier who likes him. I appreciated what he did during the pandemic (especially with Drs. Hotez and Fauci), and I like a lot of what he does. While he definitely was (wrongly) critical of Garland last night, I was genuinely surprised by it–I watch him every night, and I had not picked that up. (That is, he doesn’t beat that drum relentlessly.) I also appreciate his podcasts; they’re deep dives, and many have been quite interesting. I can take Maddow in weekly doses, O’Donnell occasionally, but Wagner and Ruhle not at all. I watch so little political TV, though.

  54. 54.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Alison Rose: Each one is more appalling than the last except that each one also is more appalling than the one that follows.

    ETA:  Come on, Passover was so much earlier.  You guys have had time to get over it.  Also, I have personal issues with a policy of killing first born Gentiles.

  57. 57.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    That feels like one of those “singularity at the beginning/end of all the multiverse” statements.

  60. 60.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    OT

    I can’t believe he’s still trying to fight on this hill, except that I can. I am a little surprised that Fox News is helping him keep digging, but maybe Harris Faulkner thinks if he gets the nomination it’ll be her ticket to a prime time slot, at long last

    Aaron Rupar@atrupar

    DeSantis on Fox News defends Florida’s new slavery curriculum: “People acquired skills in spite of slavery, not because of it, and then they used those when they achieved their freedom.”

  63. 63.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @trollhattan:

    This is one of those moments when I really regret the retirement of so many older Jewish lawyers from the legal profession here. They had some really inventive Yiddish phrases that they could apply and inform with. The younger Jewish men and women here have pretty well ditched most of that expressive culture.

  65. 65.

    Alison Rose

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Next time he says anything like this (somewhere other than Fox where they won’t challenge him), a reporter should ask “So do you wish you’d been a slave? If you could time travel, would you want to go back to the early 19th century as a Black man and be enslaved? You know, since you would have learned so many wonderful skills and all.”

  66. 66.

    different-church-lady

    @Brachiator:

    I’m more interested in Giuliani’s efforts to undermine the government than in his vile remarks

    So is Jack Smith.

  69. 69.

    rikyrah

    @judgeluttig (@judgeluttig) posted at 8:40 AM on Wed, Aug 02, 2023:
    I was traveling yesterday, but I gave CNN @jamiegangel a statement on the indictment of the former president for his efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election and for the January 6 attack on the United States Capitol.

    Among other things, I said:

    @judgeluttig (@judgeluttig) posted at 8:40 AM on Wed, Aug 02, 2023:
    This is an historic, tragic, and regrettable day for America.

     

    @judgeluttig (@judgeluttig) posted at 8:40 AM on Wed, Aug 02, 2023:
    This day is all the more tragic and regrettable because the former president has cynically chosen to inflict this embarrassing spectacle on the Nation — and a spectacle it will be.

    @judgeluttig (@judgeluttig) posted at 8:40 AM on Wed, Aug 02, 2023:
    January 6 and the effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election, together with the first criminal trials of an American president, will now become singularly infamous events in American history.

     

    @judgeluttig (@judgeluttig) posted at 8:40 AM on Wed, Aug 02, 2023:
    For the first time in history, an American president will be on criminal trial in multiple venues — federal and state — during a presidential campaign in which he will be the presumptive nominee of the Republican Party for the Presidency of the United States of America.

    @judgeluttig (@judgeluttig) posted at 8:40 AM on Wed, Aug 02, 2023:
    Never again will the world be inspired by America’s democracy in the way that it has been inspired since America’s founding almost 250 years ago.

    @judgeluttig (@judgeluttig) posted at 8:40 AM on Wed, Aug 02, 2023:
    These events will forever scar and stain the United States. And they will forever scar and stain the United States in the eyes of the world.
    (https://twitter.com/judgeluttig/status/1686733794332774400?t=ovejqtmWaBV607NnbjJsoA&s=03)

  70. 70.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Brachiator: We are sorry that we took our eyes off the ball to marvel at the awfulness of Rudy’s character.  Thank you for that chastisement.  We will endeavor to be more serious in the future.

  71. 71.

    Geminid

    @dww44: Chis Hayes has been on my shit list since June, 2020

    Edit: I don’t watch the guy, but I wonder if anyone who does ever saw him explain his attempt to promote Tara Reide’s scurrilous lies.

  72. 72.

    MazeDancer

    Chris Hayes has been President of the Bernie Bro Fan Club for quite some time. Part of the attack Hillary group.

    Tiny D on Twitter, today, bloviating about the indictment while including that he hadn’t read the indictment is so wrong.

    As Stephanie Ruhle said last night – you are either running for president or you’re not. And supporting Trump, not trying to bring him down, means you’re not. You could be running for VP. But you ain’t gunning for the top job,

  73. 73.

    HumboldtBlue

    Democ… Republicans in disarray!

    WZZM-TV Channel 13 (the ABC affiliate in Grand Rapids) reports that documents obtained through a Freedom of Information request offer details on a violent conflict that occurred during a recent Michigan GOP meeting in the Doherty Hotel in Clare. And the Republicans involved in that incident have very different versions of what occurred.

  74. 74.

    dww44

    @Immanentize: I’m actually one of those in the camp  of Garland dithered with the little ones far too long.  And was only brought around by the Jan. 6 hearings. In an evening piece at the Washington Post, Jennifer Rubin started off with this:

    Some Americans thought this day would never arrive. Many doubted that Attorney General Merrick Garland possessed the boldness and wherewithal to overcome historically risk-averse career staff at the Justice Department. He certainly did not move swiftly to investigate the effort to concoct phony electoral college slates after the 2020 presidential election.

    Then she noted this:

    Had Trump not declared his candidacy, the Justice Department might still be “working its way up the chain” in its Jan. 6 investigation.

    She also said that the real heroes of all of this were the January 6  committee hearings.    Without those, likely nothing would have happened.  The whole piece is worth a read.

  76. 76.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    minimizing slavery is, of course, not new for DeSantis (link to the dread NYT)

    “Mr. Ron, Mr. DeSantis, was mean to me and hostile toward me,” said Ms. Pompey, who graduated in 2003. “Not aggressively, but passively, because I was Black.”
    She recalled Mr. DeSantis teaching Civil War history in a way that sounded to her like an attempt to justify slavery.

    “Like in history class, he was trying to play devil’s advocate that the South had good reason to fight that war, to kill other people, over owning people — Black people,” she said. “He was trying to say, ‘It’s not OK to own people, but they had property, businesses.’” […]
    Another student who requested anonymity because he feared repercussions for his job said Mr. DeSantis’s takes on the Civil War were the subject of so much talk that students made a satirical video about him at the time for the video yearbook.
    The video, which was reviewed by The Times, includes a short snippet in which a voice purporting to be Mr. DeSantis is heard saying: “The Civil War was not about slavery! It was about two competing economic systems. One was in the North. …” while a student dozes in class. (A student voiced the role of Mr. DeSantis, because students did not have any actual footage of him, according to a student who helped put it together.)

  78. 78.

    H.E.Wolf

    @patrick II: ​
     You’re right: that’s how “-gate” is used now.

    The original Watergate scandal was so named because Nixon’s “plumbers” burgled the National Democratic Party’s headquarters, located in the Watergate Office Building.

    I can remember my grandfather pointing out the famous silhouette of “the Watergate” some years later, as we rode past it in a taxi. :-)

  79. 79.

    Brachiator

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    DeSantis on Fox News defends Florida’s new slavery curriculum: “People acquired skills in spite of slavery, not because of it, and then they used those when they achieved their freedom.”

    This is repulsive bullshit on so many levels. It also falsely implies that slavery was only for a short period of time and was quickly followed by emancipation.

    Yes, there were enslaved people who acquired skills. But these skills were ultimately used for the benefit of those who exploited them. And most slaves died and never had any opportunity to use their skills for their own benefit or for the benefit of their families.

    Again, DeSantis defiles history and insults black people.

  81. 81.

    patrick II

    @narya:

    I like Chris Hayes too, and for some of the things he is criticized for here — I don’t mind booksmart.  I have also seen him give some powerful rants with some real depth about the conservative intended dystopia.  But he is just a very bad interviewer of conservatives. His bookishness works against him.  They run all over him.  And he is a critic of Garland (as am I), which doesn’t go over well here, but last night especilly was just the wrong night to be making that point.

  82. 82.

    AM in NC

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:   I will say it again, how about we try letting the world be run by post-menopausal women?*  They have seen everything; most of them have developed the patience of saints out of necessity; they understand the importance of sharing, fairness, and being kind; and It seems like everyone else is just too freaking hormonal to be trusted to make rational decisions when needed.

    Generally ain’t grandma running around obsessed with the size of somebody’s junk and claiming someone’s body parts as their personal amusement park.

    *Only mildly serious

  83. 83.

    Baud

    @dww44:

    Seems speculative. It could be correct, but there’s nothing to hang your hat on. Alternative histories are the new religion.

  84. 84.

    MazeDancer

    Jack Smith is 54?

    Clean living and Ironman Training pays off.

    Looks much younger.

    Tiny D looks much older than his alleged 44. Because evil ages.

  86. 86.

    dww44

    @zhena gogolia:  Is that a genuine thanks to Jennifer Rubin? I honestly am not sure how to take your remark..  What I do know is that when Rubin disavowed Trump and the Republican party she did so without reservations. And that piece is a clear and succinct summation of the events leading up to yesterday’s indictment of Trump.

  89. 89.

    zhena gogolia

    @dww44: I’m not taking Garland criticism from someone who cheerled for the Benghazi investigation. I’ll give her credit when she’s right, but she’s wrong here. As are you.

  91. 91.

    Spanky

    OT for an OT thread: The shooter in Pittsburgh’s Tree of Life Synagogue attack has been sentenced to death.

  92. 92.

    JoyceH

    @patrick II: Personally, I’m glad to see the retirement of -gate. Watergate was the great Ur-scandal of the 20th century and then for decades after, every penny-ante little kerfuffle got the -gate treatment. But honestly, Trump crime spree really leaves Watergate in the dust. I propose that henceforward, the new suffix for political scandals should be -a-Lago.

  93. 93.

    HumboldtBlue

    @raven:

    There is no one here that someone doesn’t like and will be quick to let everyone know it.

    I’ve read that sentence, like, six time, and I’m still not sure what it means but I love it.

  94. 94.

    Brachiator

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    We are sorry that we took our eyes off the ball to marvel at the awfulness of Rudy’s character.  Thank you for that chastisement.  We will endeavor to be more serious in the future.

    Odd. I only noted my own lack of interest. I didn’t chastise anyone else or suggest what anyone else should think about the post.

    But hey, you be you.

  95. 95.

    Alison Rose

    @MazeDancer: When I first learned how old DeSantis was, I refused to believe it and I still do. It’s not that he necessarily looks old, but he sure as shit doesn’t look nigh-45. When I first started seeing him everywhere, I thought he was early to mid 50s. I’m convinced he’s played a con on everyone since he was a preteen. FFS, Zelenskyy is 45! No fucking way those two are the same age.

    (Before the pedants leap on me like a cheetah on a gazelle with a broken leg, I am kidding. I know Ronnie is the age he says he is.)

  96. 96.

    Ishiyama

    @Brachiator:

    This is repulsive bullshit on so many levels. It also falsely implies that slavery was only for a short period of time and was quickly followed by emancipation.

    Yes, there were enslaved people who acquired skills. But these skills were ultimately used for the benefit of those who exploited them. And most slaves died and never had any opportunity to use their skills for their own benefit or for the benefit of their families.

    Again, DeSantis defiles history and insults black people.

    Slaving destroyed African societies that had sophisticated technologies, from smelting to fabric production. Some people need to read Walter Rodney’s study, How Europe Underdeveloped Africa.

  99. 99.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @AM in NC:

    Make it “post-menopausal black women”, and I’m in.  There’s a depth of character and empathy there that doesn’t seem to be as evident with far too many of their caucasian counterparts.

  100. 100.

    zhena gogolia

    Reading the indictment now. I think it was Alison Rose who said they should follow Randy Rainbow’s lead and call him “Donald Jessica Trump” all the way through. Then it would be perfect.

  101. 101.

    dww44

    @Baud: Honestly, the piece is not alternative history.  It is the opinion of Ms. Rubin, whose explanations are entirely rational and believable.

    I have seen plenty of opinions shared elsewhere that pretty much come down on the side that Garland waited a bit too long and his hand was forced by the Jan. 6 committee.  In his very mild mannered way, on the LOD show last evening, Lawrence Tribe said much the same thing about Garland’s waiting too long, while being very complementary about the speed and thoroughness of SC Smith.

  102. 102.

    Baud

    @dww44:

    Had Trump not declared his candidacy, the Justice Department might still be “working its way up the chain” in its Jan. 6 investigation

     
    How is this not alternative history? All alternative history is opinion.

    I don’t care if people think Garland could have acted sooner. I care that they can’t let it go. That’s why it’s a religion. The world is moving on, but people want to cling to their old opinion-based grievances.

  103. 103.

    Immanentize

    @dww44: Sorry, that is an opinion and your feelings about what has happened, but they seem unencumbered, I fear, by any understanding of criminal law, criminal procedure or what it takes to investigate a serious, complicated conspiracy.

    People who want/ed fast indictments and resolution just want Trump’s idea of corrupted justice, but on our side. As has been said, Justice is a process, not a personally favored outcome.

  104. 104.

    Spanky

    WaPo also wants us to know this:

    Nose picking linked to higher risk of covid, study shows

    I’m doomed.

  106. 106.

    BellyCat

    Probably raised by another jackal, but the iambic pentameter judge was Eakins. This guy involved in a string of racist and misogynistic emails, and he resigned (amid an ethics inquiry) from the Pennsylvania Supreme Court in 2016. Linky

  107. 107.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Baud: Garland could have acted later.  Or acted differently.  Or not acted at all.  I find the idea that very little was happening prior to the appointment of Smith to be frustrating.  A metric shit ton of the ground work was done before that.  That ground work allowed Smith to act quickly.  But some people are wedded to the Garland is feckless theory.

  108. 108.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, Ron, you fucking asshole. What about the millions and millions of people who never “achieved their freedom” and died in slavery?

    I think Ron, his wife, and his kids should be put in chains and set out in a Florida farm field for one – just one day – then lets ask him what skills he learned.

  110. 110.

    smith

    @Ishiyama: The unspoken assumption, of course, is that Black people who were enslaved were simple savages who would be unable to do anything much if it weren’t for the benevolent intereventions of their enslavers. It’s not just a racist argument, but a stupid one, as well, since anyone who attains adulthood has gained skills adaptive to their environment regardless of whether they are held in bondage or not.

  113. 113.

    dww44

    @zhena gogolia:  What proof do you have that Rubin and I are wrong?  You are entitled to believe what you believe, but her opinions, as are mine, are entirely valid ones to hold.  Until the official account of this time are written for the history books or until witnesses stand up to settle the issue one way or the other, believing that Garland, an institutionalist through and through, waited too long to authorize a Special Counsel Investigation of Trump is entirely supportable.

  115. 115.

    karen marie

    @dww44: They’re all useless. I don’t understand why any of them are admired. No matter how pretty the words, it’s all speculation all the time. My life isn’t long enough to waste time listening to cable “news” shows.

  119. 119.

    PST

    @dww44: I actually like the show Chris Hayes puts on better than most of the others. Yes, I disagree with some of his points of view, but he doesn’t spend a very high percentage of his broadcast expressing them. His show, like Nicole Wallace’s, is mostly guest oriented. He has good people on, asks reasonable questions most of the time, and lets them talk. These days, of course, it seems like the same few people over and over across all of MSNBC, but in ordinary times I learn more in his hour than most of the others. I have come to deeply dislike tuning into Rachel Maddow’s show. She’s fine when she’s the MC on election night (or last night for that matter), but otherwise it is her endless, winding narration. You can always tell where she’s going 15 minutes before she gets there. She’s like a Tucker Carlson in that regard, albeit in no other way. You don’t get much of that with Chris Hayes.

  120. 120.

    mrmoshpotato

    My guess is Trump is unimpressed with the wordsmithing because he hasn’t read the indictment someone hasn’t read it to the illiterate bastard, and one of his shitstain minions hasn’t whined some bullshit on Assclown Social.

    Fixed. :)

    ETA – no offense to Gru’s hilarious minions.

  122. 122.

    Immanentize

    @Omnes Omnibus: This. So important. Smith could only be named special because of all the investigative and legal work done before — especially vis a vis the J6 prosecutions.

  123. 123.

    Scout211

    @Immanentize: Thank you for this.

    To paraphrase the saying from yesterday that jackals are praising, you are one of the few here who has read the book for this “internet book discussion.”

  124. 124.

    Miss Bianca

    @Immanentize:

    People who want/ed fast indictments and resolution just want Trump’s idea of corrupted justice, but on our side. As has been said, Justice is a process, not a personally favored outcome.

    OMG, thank you for this. The “Seize Him – Why Won’t/Didn’t They Just Seize Him!” crowd never ceases to be tiresome to me.

  125. 125.

    Ken

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Okay, I’m probably in tinfoil-hat territory here, but…

    I vaguely recall back when Trump was elected, there were rumors that the reason so many Republicans fell in line so quickly was that Trump had dirt on them. I think the alleged source was some tabloid whose owner supported Trump, and who, according to these rumors, had a habit of buying and filing stories about politicians taking bribes, having affairs, calling their constituents inbred cretins, paying for their mistresses’ abortions, and so forth.

    So now there are stories that Trump’s defense will claim that the evil mastermind Giuliani, among others, cruelly misled him as to the legality of staging a coup. And suddenly we hear about these offensive statements of Giuliani’s.

    Shiny side out, shiny side out…

  128. 128.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Boebert and MTG in a battle after their throuple blew up over whichever dude they roofied (OK, Gaetz. We know it was Gaetz) woke up and tagged in Gym Jordan?

  130. 130.

    Miss Bianca

    @dww44: I don’t have any proof that you or Rubin are wrong, but it does seem to me that if experienced trial lawyers in the commentariat are telling you that you’re wrong, you might want to pay attention.

    Or not. Seems like the “Garland can do no right” crowd can never admit *they* might be wrong.

  134. 134.

    Roger Moore

    @Alison Rose:

    IMO, the use of “-gate” is a sign a scandal isn’t serious (yet).  It means the people pushing it don’t believe it is serious enough to stand on its own merit, so they need to tie it to a previous scandal to make people pay attention.  If a scandal is really worth paying attention to, it can stand on its own.  That’s why serious scandals- and even some that turned out to be nothingberders- can stand under their own names: Iran-Contra, Whitewater, Benghazi, January 6th, etc.

  135. 135.

    Scout211

    OMFG.  How is this for a great political fundraising pitch? And speaking of lies . . .

    Former President Trump told his supporters in a fundraising email Wednesday that he could face up to 561 years in prison after the Justice Department (DOJ) indicted him in connection with his efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

    “With Crooked Joe’s corrupt DOJ having unlawfully INDICTED yours truly yet again, reports indicate that I could now face a combined 561 YEARS in prison from the Left’s witch hunts,” Trump said in the email.

  139. 139.

    Brachiator

    @Ishiyama:

    Slaving destroyed African societies that had sophisticated technologies, from smelting to fabric production. Some people need to read Walter Rodney’s study, How Europe Underdeveloped Africa.

    Good point. But I doubt that there is any mention of the impact of the slave trade on African societies in any of the DeSantis approved education materials.

    This crap includes a lot of PragerU nonsense and creeps back to an earlier era of racism that assumed that all African countries were primitive and undeveloped.

  142. 142.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Almost Retired: I already showed my ass in a really stupid hearing with a lawyer I hate today, and am exhausted, too.

    He was on zoom. I wasn’t, and kept shouting his whining ass drones down while insulting him and telling him he was lying and stripmining his client for fees.  I’d have stopped, but the judge actually said “fellas, we can go on arguing all afternoon, and to tell the truth I’m enjoying it a little,  but here’s what we’re going to do to fix this…”

    Long story on how I was taking over for a lawyer who is now going to be a witness in the case, but his comment afterward with raised eyebrow was “I wouldn’t have gone as far as you did – I’d be afraid of jail – but damn if that didn’t work to focus her attention.”

    I may actually have a little schoolboy crush on this particular judge, and she may kinda get that,  which could bode trouble in my future.

  143. 143.

    different-church-lady

    @HumboldtBlue: ​
     

    And the Republicans involved in that incident have very different versions of what occurred.

    Of course they do. They’re completely disconnected from reality, so what are the odds they’re going to invent the same story?

  144. 144.

    dww44

    @Baud:  Well, honestly, I think alternative history is far more than opinion proffered in an op-ed in a newspaper column. Per the Google, it  “is a genre of speculative fiction in which one or more historical events have occurred but are resolved differently than in actual history.” 

    Holding the view that Garland waited too long somehow makes those who do so unwilling to let their grievances go?  That seems extreme to me. It’s a difference of opinion we have. Is it fair to say that whose who hold the opposite view are somewhat defensive?  That seems to be the case to me.

  145. 145.

    jonas

    @Brachiator: This whole “black slaves learned valuable skills” canard is a very old racist trope meant to imply that back in Africa, they were a bunch of savages who had only recently descended from the trees and enslavement in America, albeit harsh, did have the upside of teaching them how to use tools and abstract thought and stuff. Fuck DeSantis and the pro-slavery propaganda he rode in on.

  146. 146.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Brachiator:

    That Booker T Washington cartoon comes to mind.

    Its a reflection back to my own grade school, and is a really juvenile apologetic.

  148. 148.

    satby

    @Baud: I don’t care if people think Garland could have acted sooner. I care that they can’t let it go. That’s why it’s a religion. The world is moving on, but people want to cling to their old opinion-based grievances.

    Edit: and what Immanentize says too.

    Applicable to so many people. On our side as well as the die hard tfg-ers. And none of them see the resemblance.

  149. 149.

    different-church-lady

    @Baud: ​
      Fair people say, “He waited too long, but I’m glad he’s doing it now.”

    People with an agenda say, “He waited to long.”

  152. 152.

    Baud

    @dww44:

    Holding the view that Garland waited too long somehow makes those who do so unwilling to let their grievances go?

     
    No, continuing to constantly talk about it even after multiple major indictments is what makes it so.

    Is it fair to say that whose who hold the opposite view are somewhat defensive? That seems to be the case to me.

    Maybe those people just want the Garland haters to move on. Maybe history will vindicate you when the books are written, but that’s a ways off.

  153. 153.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    @AM in NC: As a post menpausal woman I would agree.  For instance I would solve the “Pro Life” “Pro Choice” debate in a couple of years.  By Dec 31 in a given year everyone is required to register as “Pro life” or “Pro Choice”.  On Jan 1 the following year the first baby born to a “pro choice” female who would otherwise have had an abortion is given to the first name on the “pro choice” list to raise until it is 18.  For the following year all “pro lifers” are legally required to adopt the next baby on the “pro choice” mother list. I guarantee you that by the end of year one the “pro life” list will shrink, by year three it will be nothing. Make them put their money (and their lives) where their self righteous mouths are.

  155. 155.

    different-church-lady

    @Immanentize: ​
     

    People who want/ed fast indictments and resolution just want Trump’s idea of corrupted justice, but on our side.

    [Ding] Correct answer.

  157. 157.

    different-church-lady

    @zhena gogolia: ​
      I was just thinking that. Even if this had happened last summer people would still be screaming, “WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG!?!”

  161. 161.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @zhena gogolia: You know, there is that aspect of it. I work with two people from China (now US citizens) and another from Estonia (who was a young adult during the Soviet era). All three pointed out at lunch today that in most places in the world, a former president/premier/other-leaderly-leader would never even be investigated, much less indicted and that there was a certain likelihood that anyone suggesting such would end up in prison or dead. Overall, they find it inspiring that, even with so many people still in support of Trump (and many of them rich people), the US federal government and some state governments are pursuing his flabby ass.

  163. 163.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Almost Retired:

    I’m at the age where I get to freely show my ass in virtual hearings, too.  As one former judge in my current shop says “all that fake civility masks the assholes, and it takes us longer to recognize the bad actors – any day you can really make them show it, its like a light bulb goes off in our heads”.

  164. 164.

    zhena gogolia

    Oh, no, Jack:

    So the next day,the Defendant turned to Co-Conspirator 1, whom he announced would
    spearhead his efforts going forward to challenge the election results.

    “whom” cannot be the subject of “would spearhead.” “he announced” is parenthetical, so it should be “who he announced would spearhead” SHEESH!

  165. 165.

    different-church-lady

    @satby: ​
    Yeah, but you see I never clicked through any of them because the only ones I ever saw were the zinger-types that people linked to. The deeper ones never made the elephant-parade-of-retweets than used to (and still to a certain extent does) substitute for “content” over the past decade.

  171. 171.

    different-church-lady

    @karen marie: ​
      I frequently need to remind myself that the reason I have no idea what everyone’s screaming about is because I never watch cable news.

  173. 173.

    Baud

    @Chief Oshkosh:

    even with so many people still in support of Trump (and many of them rich people),

     
    And white people, the dominant group in the U.S. since forever.

  174. 174.

    different-church-lady

    @PST: ​
     

    but otherwise it is her endless, winding narration.

    But don’t you think it’s refreshing to dislike a pundit because of the presentation instead of the fact that they’re infuriatingly stupid and wrong?

  175. 175.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Miss Bianca: DOJ was already asking 1/6 defendants about VIP Organizers well before the Jan 6 Committee even happened.  Lisa DiMonaco authorized seizure of Rudy’s phone ON HER FIRST DAY!!  DOJ was already investigating and seizing phones of Eastman and Clark.  They were investigating Meadows too.  They were also litigating Executive Privilege issues that would only protect Trump.  The notion that DOJ was somehow going after all the people closest to Trump, even before the Jan 6 Committee but wasn’t going to connect the dots to Trump is just silly.  They started moving the hurdles that could protect Trump at every step and from the very beginning.  I know because very smart people were very excited every time we became aware of the moves.

  176. 176.

    zhena gogolia

    Having watched all the J6 hearings twice, I’m finding the indictment a little slow going because I know it all already. But I’ll persist. Maybe in small doses.

  178. 178.

    different-church-lady

    @mrmoshpotato: ​
      If that man’s thought process goes even one synapse beyond I DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WRONG I’d be deeply shocked.

  181. 181.

    different-church-lady

    @Ken: ​
      If he thinks Jack’s gonna fall for that then he’s as stupid as I believe he is.

  184. 184.

    zhena gogolia

    I like this passage from the commentary H. E. Wolf linked a while ago:

    A defendant has to go with whatever they think gives them the best chance of prevailing, of course. However, if the point-the-finger strategy is ultimately what Team Trump goes with, well, it’s got some problems. First, “counsel” ceases to be “counsel,” legally speaking, when they become co-conspirators. At that point, following their advice affords no special legal protections. Second, the indictment lays out that there were plenty of other Trump lawyers (including the two Pats, see above) who told him that what he was doing was wrong. He cannot plausibly claim ignorance, even if he is someone born to make that particular defense. Finally, the street goes both ways, even the part that is under the bus. If Trump turns on his inner circle, the same inner circle that knows all of his secrets, then they will turn on him. And if Smith has the choice to give Eastman immunity in order to seal Trump’s fate, or the choice to give Trump immunity to seal Eastman’s fate, which do you think the Special Counsel will choose? (Hint: The whale.) It’s just another way in which Trump does not seem to have learned the lessons of the The Tragedy of Richard Nixon.

    https://electoral-vote.com/#item-1

  185. 185.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    Stunning.

    It’ stunning.

    Typical bumbling Mets trade Verlander to the Astros.

  187. 187.

    NotMax

    @different-church-lady

    I do listen (albeit not daily), with my back to the TV and face to the computer desk or while doing something in another part of the domicile, to select programs or parts of programs, which is preferable to watching in my book.

    The sheer volume of extraneous stuff splashed across the screen I find not only overly busy and distracting but an offense to the eyes.

  188. 188.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Baud:

    I don’t care if people think Garland could have acted sooner. I care that they can’t let it go.

    Actually, on this site, it’s usually the opposite. Typically within the first dozen or so posts of a thread about the DOJ investigations there will be a post saying how the event being discussed vindicates Garland and that all of those who thought Garland was too slow or timid were definitively proven wrong. And, typically, that post has errors and says things that people never actually said. It’s the nature of a blog. That said, this was certainly not the case for this thread.

    As to Rubin, I think she is wrong on some of her statements in that piece, and as I said on another thread, she still lacks self-awareness in that she’s jumped on another bandwagon. She should be much more careful about examining the roots of her assumptions and she should be much more precise in her own writings

    ETA: Here’s a perfect example from Immanentize:

    People who want/ed fast indictments and resolution just want Trump’s idea of corrupted justice, but on our side. As has been said, Justice is a process, not a personally favored outcome.

    I don’t recall people on this site asking for fast indictments and resolution. What I do recall is people like Betty and Congressman Schiff being frustrated that DOJ was not focusing on Trump as an actual motive force in the J6 insurrection, its planning and execution.

  189. 189.

    Elizabelle

    @Ishiyama:  Thank you for the head’s up on Walter Rodney.  Found a free PDF online, and will be looking at this.  Cheers.

  191. 191.

    different-church-lady

    You know, you’re all deeply behind the curve here. “He waited to long” is over. “Garland had nothing to do with it, it was all Jack Smith” is what the savvy set is wearing.

  196. 196.

    dww44

    @Miss Bianca: First, I don’t know who the experienced lawyers/commenters on this blog are. Second, I’m not in the” Garland can do no right” camp.  I think those who believe that “Garland can do no wrong” camp put me there.

    I think I already mentioned in an earlier comment that Lawrence Tribe himself, in his typically very mild manner on last night’s LOD show, prefaced his remarks about yesterday’s indictment with the opinion that Garland had waited too long before he (Tribe) then gave a full-throated endorsement of his appointment of Jack Smith and yesterday’s indictment. I believe there are other similar opinions out there to his, which are also mine.

    I am honestly surprised and dismayed by the over-the-top reactions here which seem to be aimed at ” putting me in my place.” The very opposite of a free, open, and respectful exchange of ideas and opinions.

  197. 197.

    Baud

    @Chief Oshkosh:

    I take it most Garland defenders on this site are reacting to things they see elsewhere on social media.

    I’d be happy if the topic of Garland’s handling of the investigation ceased to be a topic of discussion everywhere.

  198. 198.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @NotMax: I tend to listen more than I watch these days. One thing I’ve noticed is a lot of guests will say something like “as your listeners maybe remember– your listeners and viewers—“. Makes me wonder how MSNBC’s audience breaks down in terms of podcasts vs live-viewing, and how much that’s drilled into the on-air folk by producers and directors.

  199. 199.

    Baud

    @dww44:

    Larry Tribe is not a trial lawyer, much less a criminal lawyer.

    People disagreeing with you aren’t silencing you.

  200. 200.

    zhena gogolia

    @schrodingers_cat: I think people with no direct experience of authoritarian societies don’t really get it (looking at you, Judge Luttig).

    ETA: And also in response to Luttig, I’d say the stain on US history happened when Trump was elected.

  201. 201.

    different-church-lady

    @dww44: ​

    I’m not in the” Garland can do no right” camp. I think those who believe that “Garland can do no wrong” camp put me there.

    What about the people in the “Garland doesn’t do anything at all” camp?

  202. 202.

    Sure Lurkalot

    I’m in Betty Cracker’s fuckifino camp about Merrill Garland and certainly give heed to people more qualified than I about the difficulties in building such cases to indictment, but these are Garland’s own words over 8 months ago (emphasis mine):

    Based on recent developments, including the former President’s announcement that he is a candidate for President in the next election, and the sitting President’s stated intention to be a candidate as well, I have concluded that it is in the public interest to appoint a Special Counsel.

    Clearly the DOJ was working on Trump’s various criminal acts but it also seems clear that Trump’s candidacy announcement raised the stakes. Maybe all would have transpired at the same pace but again, fuckifino.

    And among those people who have publicly expressed some disappointment with Merrick Garland is Adam Schiff, who most people here admire.

  203. 203.

    patrick II

    @Baud:

    How is this not alternative history? All alternative history is opinion.

     
    Because Trump being a candidate for president is the reason Garland himself gave for appointing Smith.

  204. 204.

    different-church-lady

    @Sure Lurkalot: People really just don’t seem to give any recognition to how tiny the needle Garland and DOJ is trying to thread here. Too aggressive and it comes off as political. Too lax and it comes off as lenience or cowardice.

  206. 206.

    Baud

    @patrick II:

    The alternative history is what would have happened if Garland didn’t appoint Smith.  There’s no way to know right now how or when the DOJ prosecution would have happened if there were no special prosecutor.

  208. 208.

    Baud

    IIRC, when Garland appointed Smith the critique was that Garland was avoiding his responsibility and was slowing down the investigation by putting a new person in charge.

  209. 209.

    Kay

    @Chief Oshkosh:

    And if anyone expressed doubt it was “oh, so you want to CLAP them in LEG IRONS without due process! You’re just like Trump!”

    Excuse me?

    This nonsense that one side of this was sober and thoughtful while the maniacs on the other side wanted them executed w/o trial isn’t how I remember it. I’m thrilled they pursued this – I think it will be rough for the country but it’s the only way to go forward. We’ve pushed enough uinder the rug and it’s really bumpy with unresolved issues and “looking forward, not back”  but I’m also permitted to express concerns, negativity, questions about the DOJ or the leadership therein. That’s allowed. In no sense does it mean I reject process.

  210. 210.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @different-church-lady:

    You know, you’re all deeply behind the curve here. “He waited to long” is over. “Garland had nothing to do with it, it was all Jack Smith” is what the savvy set is wearing.

    [empahsis mine]

    Making my point for me. Who here, on this blog, is saying that?

  211. 211.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Just turned on the audio of the Nicolle Wallace show in time to hear “why didn’t this happen two and half years ago!”

    ETA: just to clarify, it was not Wallace but a guest, I don’t know who

    /click/

  213. 213.

    Sis

    I immediately thought of the “powerful and obnoxious odor of mendacity” quote from Big Daddy in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

  215. 215.

    sab

    @different-church-lady: I think Garland handled it well. He didn’t rush in. He looked deliberative, and then he handed it off to an actual tiger.The fact that everyone is giving all the credit to Smith shows how well Garland kept it from looking like a political hatchet job. Meanwhile the rest of his DOJ is very busy elsewhere doing really important things also.

  220. 220.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Baud:

    I take it most Garland defenders on this site are reacting to things they see elsewhere on social media.

    Given what we’re seeing in this thread, I think your assumption is wrong. And if it is true that most Garland defenders on this site are reacting to things they read elsewhere, it’d be good if they stipulated — it’d save time. ;)

    I’d be happy if the topic of Garland’s handling of the investigation ceased to be a topic of discussion everywhere.

    You and me both. It’s in the rearview mirror.

  221. 221.

    different-church-lady

    @sab: I don’t know how this is going to play out, but I think there’s a good chance that when it’s over we’ll be saying one of the smartest things Garland did was not take his cues from the very-online.

  223. 223.

    Jackie

    FYI: ARRAIGNMENT Party is at 4 pm Blog Time tomorrow. Have your party essentials ready!

  225. 225.

    Baud

    @Chief Oshkosh:

    Given what we’re seeing in this thread, I think your assumption is wrong

     
    Judging by the comments I’ve seen over the last couple of days, a lot of people are reacting to MSNBC’s coverage yesterday. So media but not social media.

  226. 226.

    eversor

    Rudy thinks a lot about other peoples cocks…

    What is with these conservatives and constantly thinking about other peoples dicks?

  227. 227.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @dww44: The conversations here are not taking place in a vacuum.  A number of commenters have disclosed their backgrounds in federal criminal litigation.  Also, some themes and conversation carryover through multiple threads.  Being confronted with an argument that one has countered multiple times in the past can be frustrating.  If a commenter has said “I am an experienced criminal litigator, and, in my experience, a certain process tends to take x months” and said it multiple times, they might get a little snippy if people keep saying “Why wasn’t this process completed in x/2 months?”  Also, because there are a bunch of regulars here, sometimes arguments get reduced to shorthand comments.

    TLDR:  Don’t take things too personally.

  228. 228.

    dww44

    @Baud: Not being a trial lawyer doesn’t render Tribe’s opinion any less valid, does it? I believe he trains trial lawyers at a highly respected, dare I say elite, institution, or did.  I shouldn’t listen to him, but I should listen to the lawyers who comment here?
    I don’t have issues with people disagreeing with me.  I do with the manner in which they are often stated.  In the many years I’ve been a reader here, I’ve witnessed the ganging up on commenters who have a differing opinion that may be expressed in ways that are off-putting to the majority.  I guess that’s me re Garland’s role in the current matter.  Time to take a break.​

  229. 229.

    Kay

    On the political side of things, I think a lot of base Democrats will be thrilled whether or not they were a fan of Garland. They just wanted accountability. Not the ultra online, super sophisticated base. The real base. They absolutely wanted Trump hel;d accountable and they were correct in expecting that to happen.

    I think Biden’s numbers go up with D’s. He actually has some room to grow there.

  230. 230.

    zhena gogolia

    Jonathan Turley: Special Counsel Jack Smith just issued the first criminal indictment of alleged disinformation in my view. If you take a red pen to all of the material presumptively protected by the First Amendment, you can reduce much of the indictment to haiku…

  235. 235.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Weirdly, even though I limit my time in Federal Court, I may have conducted the longest Federal criminal trial of anyone here.  Five weeks from open to close, with at least one full week of jury selection.

    That fucking sucked, and I never want to do that again.

  236. 236.

    Roger Moore

    @jonas: ​
     

    This whole “black slaves learned valuable skills” canard is a very old racist trope meant to imply that back in Africa, they were a bunch of savages who had only recently descended from the trees and enslavement in America, albeit harsh, did have the upside of teaching them how to use tools and abstract thought and stuff.

    This! It’s classic excuses for why slavery is actually a good thing, and they’ve been used that way since slavery was an everyday feature of American life. I’m only a tiny bit surprised the proposed Florida curriculum doesn’t talk about the civilizing effect of Christianity on a bunch of pagans, which was also an excuse people used back then and continue to use today.

  237. 237.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @dww44:

    Tribe is a schmuck, a TV lawyer from an Ivy sinecure who runs his mouth about topics he knows little about.

  238. 238.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @different-church-lady: No, I most often react to what I’m reading in the thread that I’m posting in. If I bring in something from beyond that thread, I generally mention that.

    Possibly nobody else does this, but seems unlikely. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  239. 239.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @zhena gogolia:

    Turley is nothing if not predictable.  Had he been born earlier in Germany, he’d have been in the dock at Nuremburg at the Judges Trial.

  240. 240.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @dww44:

    I believe he trains trial lawyers at a highly respected, dare I say elite, institution, or did.

    but enough about Alan Dershowitz….

  241. 241.

    Baud

    @dww44:

    You can listen to anyone you want.  I just don’t think Tribe’s opinion carries as much weight as those of people who actually try criminal cases.

    I don’t know what to say about having a minority viewpoint.  It happens to everyone, but you just have to decide what you’re comfortable with.

  244. 244.

    p.a

    Hmmm.  Article posted at TPM at 3:05ET

     

    “… Text messages obtained by Talking Points Memo — most which have not previously been made public until now — paint a picture of what was going on behind the scenes in the White House during the crucial period the special prosecutor has zeroed in on. In particular, they reveal that Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel and former Arizona Republican Party Chairwoman Kelli Ward were among those who played key roles in elements of the alleged conspiracy from the moment Smith said it began.”

  245. 245.

    Jackie

    According to the NYT, they think they’ve ID’d CC #6.

    “.  a December 2020 email from Trump adviser Boris Epshteyn to Rudy Giuliani is an indication Epshteyn is the co-conspirator whose identity was outstanding.”

    I don’t have a subscription to the NYT, so this snip is courtesy of RawStory.

    https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-2662680930/

  248. 248.

    eversor

    @Jackie:

    It’s just… creepy.

    Like the entire “bring those tits here” is odd as well.  I’m a red blooded hetero male and I’ve never said something that… cheesy I guess is the word.  And don’t get me wrong I’ve done my share of kinky sex and dirty talk but it’s all just odd.

    It’s not kinky, it’s not horny, it’s not dirty, it’s not fun, it’s just creepy.  Who does this?  Then again while I have done a high heels race in Dupont Circle I’ve never dressed in drag and kissed Trump either.

    I get Hunters “hookers and blow” jam that’s understandable.  But ranting about jew dicks and telling people to bring their tits over to you is just sort of crazy.

  249. 249.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Kay: Careful, Kay, never disconcert the masses.

    (500 cryptocoins to the first one who tells us what movie that’s from!)

  250. 250.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Omnes Omnibus: Also, if you make the same tired argument that Trump himself, and a flood of sketchy MAGA bots are echoing all over Twitter then, yeah, people aren’t gonna have much patience for it.

  251. 251.

    rikyrah

    President Biden is not giving up with helping those who have student loans.

    Biden administration launches new SAVE student loan repayment plan. Here’s how to apply
    PUBLISHED MON, JUL 31 202310:32 AM EDT
    UPDATED MON, JUL 31 202312:00 PM EDT
    Annie Nova

     

    The Biden administration has launched a beta application for its new repayment plan for student loan borrowers.
    The Saving on a Valuable Education, or SAVE, plan is an income-driven repayment plan that may cut many borrowers’ previous monthly payments in half, and will leave some people with no monthly bill.

    The Biden administration has launched a beta application for its new repayment plan for federal student loan borrowers.

    The Saving on a Valuable Education, or SAVE plan, is an income-driven repayment plan that may cut many borrowers’ previous monthly payments in half, and will leave some people with no monthly bill.

    The U.S. Department of Education says borrowers can begin enrolling now in what it calls, “the most affordable repayment plan yet.”

    How the SAVE student loan plan works
    Instead of paying 10% of their discretionary income a month toward their undergraduate student debt under the previous Revised Pay As You Earn Repayment Plan, or REPAYE, plan, borrowers will eventually be required to pay just 5% of their discretionary income under the SAVE plan.

    Those who make less than $15 an hour won’t need to make any payments under the new option, the Education Department says.

    “The SAVE plan is very generous to borrowers, almost like a grant after the fact,” said higher education expert Mark Kantrowitz.

     

    This is what happens when you have someone in government who wants to use government to HELP PEOPLE.

  255. 255.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @dww44:

    I’m a lawyer with 35 years worth of experience, some civil, some criminal, some estate, some tax.  I allegedly possess the potential skills to take on things in areas where I don’t generally play, but I don’t because I’m self-aware about my limitations.  I would never dream of trying to speak authoritatively and extemporaneously on what a land use lawyer has to do to subdivide and develop a large plat of land for mixed use.  I don’t dabble in administrative law, and I don’t do complex boot for basis 1031 swaps – as a result, I don’t go about offering my opinion on the methods that those who actually do those things engage in.

    Ironically, the least accomplished lawyers I’m aware of are esconced in academia.

  260. 260.

    narya

    @Baud: I admit that I don’t get worked up about whom people like or listen to or hate or whatever. I think we all want different things from what we read, watch, listen to, and we have different tolerances for screwing up by the people writing or talking. I know I’ve made some comments today about preferring (or not preferring) this or that commentator, but, honestly, what difference does my opinion make? If you (generally, not you, Baud) disagree and prefer another method of acquiring information, so what? In other words, what Baud said.

  262. 262.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    @zhena gogolia: criminal prosecutions of fraud and many types of obstruction are based on disinformation.

    Nixon’s initial obstruction in Watergate (among many other acts) was using disinformation to shut down the FBI investigation into the break-in. (He ordered the CIA to lie to the FBI, telling them an investigation would damage national security via a vis The Bay of Pig operation).

    If I sell you a car and lie about its condition, that’s fraud based on disinformation.

  266. 266.

    NotMax

    @zhena gogolia

    Shall willingly await SD. Haiku (other than the town on Maui*) outside my wheelhouse.

    *Telephone exchange for Haiku and its immediate environs is really, truly 575.

  268. 268.

    Barbara

    @dww44: ​ Whatever kind of lawyer you are, or I am, I think it is mostly pointless and potentially destructive to engage in counterfactual speculation on what would or might have happened if so and so had done something else or something earlier. We have no idea when the special prosecutor felt secure enough that various witnesses would actually provide evidence sufficient to pass the minimum necessary threshold to bring an indictment. And even though I loathe Trump I can honestly say that it seems right that the AG or the special prosecutor might want to be particularly careful to have their ducks in a row before indicting the ex-president.

    I understand that pointless counterfactual speculation is the heart and soul of certain types of news analysis, and that is why I mostly don’t watch it.​​​

  270. 270.

    Miss Bianca

    @Chief Oshkosh: yet, strangely, here we now are, with Trump being all indicted on J6 charges and shit. Which, strangely, I never doubted for a moment was going to happen.

  271. 271.

    Honus

    @dww44: not being a trial lawyer or litigator very much affects the validity of Tribe’s opinion.  And Tribe doesn’t train trial lawyers, he teaches constitutional law. Civil procedure professors train trial lawyers.
    Also, Merrick Garland was a student of Lawrence Tribe at Harvard. Res ipsa loquitor

  273. 273.

    rikyrah

    Randall Woodfin (@randallwoodfin) posted at 6:55 PM on Tue, Aug 01, 2023:
    Honored to have Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, the first African-American woman on the Supreme Court, speak at the 60th anniversary of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing next month.

    A significant moment for Birmingham as we remember, heal, and forge justice together. https://t.co/2z6CT0aVQp
    (https://twitter.com/randallwoodfin/status/1686526031266541568?t=10Qx5TENyFYX7NHKlikB3g&s=03)

  274. 274.

    Bill Arnold

    @Baud:

    The alternative history is what would have happened if Garland didn’t appoint Smith.

    Also, the probability that DJ. Trump would not declare his candidacy, and declare it early (to build a narrative that he should not be prosecuted because he’s a candidate), was approximately zero.
    More broadly, we’re 15 months out from the 2024 general election. The election is in play, and cautionary predictive speculations aren’t very useful, except as fodder for organizing plans to defeat Republicans, and then only if some rigorous good-faith estimation of the tree of probabilities is applied.

  278. 278.

    Barbara

    @Honus: ​ The example not to follow is the prosecutor in Baltimore who quickly indicted six police officers in connection with the death of Freddie Gray and lost initial jury verdicts and ended up having to dismiss charges against everyone. No doubt someone was guilty of something but when you go to court you have to show that this person was guilty of that crime, element by element.

  279. 279.

    rikyrah

    @p.a:

    “… Text messages obtained by Talking Points Memo — most which have not previously been made public until now — paint a picture of what was going on behind the scenes in the White House during the crucial period the special prosecutor has zeroed in on. In particular, they reveal that Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel and former Arizona Republican Party Chairwoman Kelli Ward were among those who played key roles in elements of the alleged conspiracy from the moment Smith said it began.”

     

    Oh Ronna….LOL

     

    If TPM has those text messages…

     

    SO.DOES.JACK.SMITH.

  281. 281.

    Miss Bianca

    @Sure Lurkalot: I like Adam Schiff, and I respect his opinions, but I don’t consider him infallible. He’s got points to score off his opinionatin’ just like any other politician – or any person period, come to that.

  282. 282.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    @rikyrah: ​
     

    He’s a good person.

    reminds me of this quote:

    I believe my party cares more about the problems of the people of this country and more concerned with helping them with their problems then the Republicans and for that reason I’m a Democrat.

    LBJ

  284. 284.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Barbara:

    “And even though I loathe Trump I can honestly say that it seems right that the AG or the special prosecutor might want to be particularly careful to have their ducks in a row before indicting the ex-president.”

    This!  Cutting some corners from the normal process because of the looming 2024 Election could very well open up any conviction to being overruled on appeal.  DOJ had/s to proceed with caution and treat Trump as they would any other defendant, without passion or prejudice, as the saying goes.

  285. 285.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Miss Bianca: When I saw Schiff joining in on the Garland bashing criticism, I thought I would like to ask him if he ever had a case where he was sure all the evidence was in his favor and it was pretty clear the defendant was guilty, yet the jury still somehow voted for acquittal.

    I mean, besides the first impeachment

  286. 286.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Miss Bianca: Schiff is also partly responsible for delay in that his own Committee withheld documents from DOJ for months!!  They probably had good reason to do so, but you’d think he’d grant DOJ the same benefit of the doubt…

  289. 289.

    Roger Moore

    @Kay: ​
     

    This nonsense that one side of this was sober and thoughtful while the maniacs on the other side wanted them executed w/o trial isn’t how I remember it.

    Part of the problem, of course, is that each side remembers the most outrageous things said by anyone on the other side. For example, a commenter here was recently complaining that any other country would have thrown Trump in prison on 21 Jan 2021. I don’t think that’s the consensus view among people who think DOJ should have been faster, but it is an actual thing someone said here.

  290. 290.

    sab

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: I have suspected that for a while.

    But my law career was very short. Hated it and not good at it.  But I did pass the bar in MI on my first attempt, unlike Hillary (she was busy and flunked DC bar. I had time to study. MI bar passed if you did well on multistate. Ultimate good test taker low bar.  Which I passed. Hillary flunked hers and I passsed mine? Shows the flaws in the system.

  291. 291.

    CaseyL

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I mean, besides the first impeachment

    I like Schiff very much, but this was actually the first thing I thought of when he was complaining even now about Garland:

    Dude.  You had a shot and it didn’t work.

    Yes, I know the GOP was never going to vote to impeach… and you better believe Garland and Smith are also aware of that, and know they’ve got to present a case so ironclad, with so much evidence in support, that it would outlast the heat death of the universe.

  293. 293.

    sab

    @Roger Moore: Some of our guys loved Cole when he was a RWNJ. This shift to the rule of law vs our side wins has been an adjustment.

    On the other hand I like slow creeping criminal law. Somewhere in my life I might have fucked up moraly or legaly (one” l” looks wrong) and still have gotten ahead without being horrible.

  294. 294.

    Hoodie

    @dww44: Tribe is an appellate lawyer and law school professor.  He started his career as an appellate law clerk and then became a law professor.  He argues big issues at the appellate level, which doesn’t have a lot to do with the nuts and bolts of putting together a criminal investigation and trial.  He has no direct experience in conducting criminal investigations, which is done by a combination of lawyers and cops and involves a lot of logistical issues that guys like Tribe don’t deal with.   Law students learn to be trial lawyers when they go out into the real world, starting out as grunts and working their way up.  They’re taught by other trial lawyers or learn it themselves the hard way.  It’s like the difference between being an architect and a carpenter.

  295. 295.

    Omnes Omnibus

    As I was out riding my bike, I had a thought that may explain some of the differences of opinion here.  Politically, it may well  have been optimal to have indicted Trump far soon than this.  Anyone looking at the process primarily from the POV of the next election could easily find the process glacially slow.  OTOH, people looking at it primarily from a legal standpoint would be less concerned about the timing and more concerned that Garland/Smith had all their ducks in a row.  A failed prosecution would be devastating, and one that failed because it was rushed  would be even worse.  At this point though, indictments have happened, and we all have to live with the timing and degree of preparation that went into them.

  296. 296.

    sab

    @sab: But MI had a less than 50% pass rate. Proving I excelled at tests and failed at common sense. Aways my whole long life.

    Also too spelling, or at least internet typing.

  297. 297.

    zhena gogolia

    His idea is basically that all of us (GA,WI,AZ,PA,
    etc.) have our electors send in their votes (even though the votes
    aren’t legal under federal law because they’re not signed by the
    Governor) ; so that members of Congress can fight about whether
    they should be counted on January 6th (They could potentially
    argue that they’re not bound by federal law because they’re
    Congress and make the law, etc.) Kind of wild/ creative — I’m happy
    to discuss.     My comment to him was that I guess there’s no harm in
    it, (legally at least) i.e. we would just be sending in “fake”
    electoral votes to Pence so that “someone” in Congress can make an
    objection when they start counting votes, and start arguing that the
    “fake” votes should be counted .

    Bolded sentence nominated for rotating tag.

  299. 299.

    The Thin Black Duke

    I’m glad Trump has been indicted. The odds are good he won’t be able to slither away from his latest self-inflicted disaster. Ranting about whether Garland waited too long is a waste of oxygen.

  300. 300.

    different-church-lady

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​  No, it’s just understandable that people are craving the sight of Trump behind bars, and they’re not consulting with their intellect before the running of the mouth.​

  301. 301.

    different-church-lady

    Technical question: is Happy Hour still at 5 o’clock if you didn’t get out of bed until one in the afternoon?

  303. 303.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    TFG’s new cognitive test:

    Prosecutor, Judge, Courtroom, Trial, Prison

    This ain’t McDonald’s but I’m sure lovin’ it! After four years of that asshole and his supporting assholes, I’m savoring every single bit of this.

  306. 306.

    Scout211

    I don’t know why, but this made me laugh.  It’s on NBC.com’s live updates

    The legal team for lawyer John Eastman, accused of helping architect the “fake electors scheme,” said the former Trump adviser would decline a plea deal if offered one by federal prosecutors.

    Eastman’s lawyers also claimed the indictment “relies on a misleading presentation of the record to contrive criminal charges against presidential candidate Trump and to cast ominous aspersions on his close advisors.”

    Ominous aspersions?!  LOLOLOLOLOL

    ETA:  Also, too, I think we should hold him to that promise that he will not accept a plea deal.  Yeah, sure, I believe him 100% that he will not accept a plea deal.  ;-)

  307. 307.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @different-church-lady: ​  It is possible that you are drinking too much, not enough, the wrong thing, or some combination of the above. Have you considered hard drugs?​
     

    ETA: N.B. I am not a medical professional, a mental health counselor, a bartender, or a drug dealer.

  309. 309.

    Roger Moore

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Anyone looking at the process primarily from the POV of the next election could easily find the process glacially slow. OTOH, people looking at it primarily from a legal standpoint would be less concerned about the timing and more concerned that Garland/Smith had all their ducks in a row.

    I think a big part of the problem is people are talking past each other.  People who wanted Trump indicted and convicted lickety split were thinking about what would be politically beneficial.  They get upset with people who talk about how long the process is going to take because they think those people lack the necessary degree of urgency.  People who have been OK with the timescale we’ve gotten have been focused on the nuts and bolts of the prosecution.  They get upset with people who want things to happen faster because they think those people are putting their political desire for a fast prosecution ahead of the need to make the case airtight.

  312. 312.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: that was the  honorable Louis Goehmert, former congressman and a fairly high ranking judge in Texas before that

    On my phone and too sausage fingered to check

  313. 313.

    different-church-lady

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​

    It is possible that you are drinking too much, not enough, the wrong thing, or some combination of the above.

    Yes.

    Have you considered hard drugs?​

    On my income?

  314. 314.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Roger Moore: Exactly.  And then there are a few trolls who are just trying to muddy the waters (not in this particular thread which IMO involved people being wrong in good faith).

  316. 316.

    Leto

    I was running errands about 90 mins ago and just happened to turn to NPR, mainly because I haven’t listened to them in a long while. Wondered what they saying regarding this, and they had one of Trumpov’s dingdong lawyers on just… stinking the joint up. “Biden administration prosection” this, “free speech” that… I lasted 30 secs and just turned it. I don’t need to hear that shit, nobody needs to hear that shit. Why are you polluting the airwaves with that bs? There’s no value in hearing what they have to say, other than deranged Broderism.

  317. 317.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ominous Aspersions is an album name.  The one where the band goes back to basics and records in a mountain cabin to get back that feeling they had when they were starting out before all the money and success changed everything.

  319. 319.

    Leto

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​ honestly I have trepidations about both: I’m afraid of the glacial pace due to his long standing history of delaying everything for years, combined with the fact that if he does win that he’ll simply end it all the day of Inauguration. Also I’m afraid that even if Smith has all his ducks in a row, i’s dotted, t’s crossed, that it still won’t be enough. I keep thinking about Bundy and the Muehuller Refuge standoff, and how all those fucks walked free.

    Honestly there’s not much I can do other than vote, encourage as many as I can to vote, limit how much of this I’m consuming (other than here, always happy to be here), and just trust that he’s as good at his job as his resume shows.

  321. 321.

    Kay

    If you’re interested in crim justice reform this is an amazing success story:

    In 1999 Connecticut had so many people in prison that it paid to send 500 of them to be incarcerated in Virginia. Nearly 25 years later, the state has not only sliced its number of imprisoned people in half, but been able to close more than 10 prisons while keeping its crime rate at its lowest level in more than 40 years.
    “It is kind of remarkable,” said Mike Lawlor, a former state legislator and state official who has worked on these issues for 30-plus years. “We could probably close a few more.”

  330. 330.

    sab

    My Dad is going to be 99 this month.

    His much younger wife died 10 years ago. I cannot tell you how weird this feels. But Dad has dementia, and Mom adored him because he was so much smarter than her. She couldn’t have handled his dementia.

    ETA: She was a sweet, gentle lady, but she really could not have handled his dementia. It isn’t severe, but he isn’t who he was

    ETA The younger wife was my mom.

  331. 331.

    RSA

    @Brachiator:  Yes, there were enslaved people who acquired skills. But these skills were ultimately used for the benefit of those who exploited them. And most slaves died and never had any opportunity to use their skills for their own benefit or for the benefit of their families.

    Good observation.  It’s estimated that somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 million people lived under slavery in America between 1619 and 1865 (i.e. by a cumulative count).  If 4 million were freed in 1865, that leaves 6 million who died enslaved.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7716878/

  333. 333.

    Dan B

    @different-church-lady:  I read somewhere that the person whose bailiwick was investigating Trump for J6, etc. was deferential to people in power.  This is fr9m people who’d worked with him. Garland was stuck with this character.  It was the bureaucracy that threw a wrench in the works.  The J6 committee allowed the dam to break at DOJ.

  334. 334.

    Baud

    @Dan B:

    I can see that.  Garland couldn’t replace a career prosecutor without the investigation looking political, and maybe this guy was risk averse.

  337. 337.

    sab

    @Brachiator: Skilled people living happily in Africa were kidnapped and enslaved because South Carolina needed skilled rice farmers. As Game of Thrones would say : this is known.  If it isn’t known, it damn well should be.

  338. 338.

    Old School

    @Chief Oshkosh:

    Careful, Kay, never disconcert the masses.

    (500 cryptocoins to the first one who tells us what movie that’s from!)

    The Great Waldo Pepper

  339. 339.

    MomSense

    @Immanentize:

    I have a question for you. It seems like at the heart of the Garland do something shoulda done something sooner crowd is the belief that a conviction on an insurrection (conspiracy, inciting, etc) would have disqualified trump from re-election.
    It’s my understanding that even though an insurrection would be disqualifying, there is no mechanism for making that happen and we would have to litigate that matter anyway.
    I think this is another case of wanting the DOJ to solve what is a problem for voters.  Our electorate is dysfunctional and it would be soooo much easier if Garland could handle this for us.

  340. 340.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Dan B:

    I read somewhere that the person whose bailiwick was investigating Trump for J6, etc. was deferential to people in power.  This is fr9m people who’d worked with him. Garland was stuck with this character.

    Sherwin, trump’s US Atty for DC? D’Antuono, director of the DC field office? they’re both featured in that Carol Leonnig article that poured gasoline on this question

  341. 341.

    Dan B

    @sab:  True that Garland has done a good job of keeping the investigation from looking political but the RWNJ’s still call it political revenge.  It would be interesting to know how many Americans feel the same.  27%?

  343. 343.

    Gwangung

    I am absolutely convinced that under the best of circumstances, the absolute minimum for a case would have been 18-24 months. And with the internal politics (both in the partisan and in the bureaucracy sense), it’s not overly long for indictments to have taken this long.

  344. 344.

    CaseyL

    @Roger Moore:

    People who wanted Trump indicted and convicted lickety split were thinking about what would be politically beneficial.

    I have really lost my temper a few times at the pace, and (metaphorically) yelled and screamed about it.  Mostly, though I’ve tried to be patient and supportive of DoJ in building this case.

    But I wasn’t angry because I was hungry for a political benefit. My god, no.

    I was angry because every day that excrescence walks free, is able to hold rallies, make speeches, appear on TV, is another day of incalculable damage to the country.

  345. 345.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @CaseyL: But I wasn’t angry because I was hungry for a political benefit. My god, no.

    I was angry because every day that excrescence walks free, is able to hold rallies, make speeches, appear on TV, is another day of incalculable damage to the country.

    And that isn’t political?  Okay.

  347. 347.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    Query on Epshteyn, born 1982

    I knew a bunch of Russian immigrants in the early 90s. They were poor as churchmice, and struggled (rightfully) with language and culture, even when clearly educated and sharp.

    How does Epshteyn immigrate in 1993 as an 11 year old and then matriculate straight into Swarthmore from high school in 2000, and then do Georgetown for a JD followed by tassel-loafered firm recruitment without tremendous resources? And then straight into the GOP pipeline in 2007 into Palin’s orbit?

  348. 348.

    Glidwrith

    @dww44: And now we have moved to the portion of our program of looking at definitions in the dictionary to keep on arguing against the professionals that know what they’re talking about.

    ‘Bye.

  349. 349.

    Dan B

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:  D’Antuono was the supposed laggard, I believe.  Good to here it’s been disproved.  The reports about early work are great.  My question is how many Trump appointees at DOJ had to be worked around?  That would slow things down.

  350. 350.

    UncleEbeneezer

    DOJ seized Rudy Giuliani’s phone on 4/28/21. The investigation into Sidney Powell was overt in September 2021. The Clark investigation started at DOJ in January 2021. But @GlennThrush thinks the indictments yesterday built on “several” months work.

    And Windom was brought on to head up the 1/6 probe in November 2021. The same month the US Attorney in DC was confirmed by the senate. But sure, it was Garland who delayed the investigation.

  351. 351.

    Dan B

    @Baud:  True.  Only the RWNJ’s are hollering.  How did corporate media get over the both-sides!!! both-bad.  I’d hazard to say that Jack Smith’s no nonsense approach is a good part of it.

  352. 352.

    Geminid

    @Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Maybe Epshteyn knows or is related to someone like Andrew Intrater. Intrater runs an investment firm that was fundedup by his cousin, Russian oligarch Viktor Vekselberg. Intrater has been a big contributor to Republicans, most notoriously to George Santos.

    I saw a lot of speculation about the identity of Individual #6 last night. Some people were saying that it must be Epshteyn, others were saying it’s gotta be a Mr. Roman. Evidently, they both fit the description.

    So why aren’t they #6 and #7? I guess because one has flipped. One of the interesting aspects of the indictment are all the people not indicted, like Mark Meadows. Some may show up in additional indictments, some may show up at trial as prosecution witnesses.

  354. 354.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Geminid: Roman or Epshteyn would be great because DOJ already has BOTH of their phones!

    Federal investigators have seized the phones of Trump advisors to Trump — including Boris Epshteyn, the in-house counsel who helps coordinate Trump’s legal efforts, and Mike Roman, director of Election Day operations for the Trump campaign in 2020.

  355. 355.

    kalakal

    @zhena gogolia: I couldn’t agree with you more. That guy is 180 degrees out.

    what would  

    forever scar and stain the United States in the eyes of the world. 

    is if TFG and his fellow conspirators were to have been allowed to carry on politics as normal with no charges brought it would have been the end of the United States. Any nation that allows the leaders of an attempted insurrection to walk away scot free is doomed. The seat of government was occupied by rioters trying to overturn an election and install a dictatorship. Allowing that to go unpunished is what would “Scar and stain the United States”.

  356. 356.

    bbleh

    “Pervasive and destabilizing lies” has really nice meter.   Like, in the future, when someone produces “Trump, The Musical,” which inevitably will be really campy and over-the-top, “Pervasive And Destabilizing Lies” will be one of the important numbers.

  357. 357.

    Subsole

    @Ken:

    You aren’t alone there.

    I am just waiting for that petty, vindictive dumbshit to start dumping ALL of it. Everything. About all of them.

    Like, you ever seen the movie Death of Stalin? There’s a scene in there where Beria is shrieking at the rest of the Committee, raging at them and telling them he has files on all of them. He has files on. All. Of. Them. And you can just see them all slowly deciding, right there, in real time, that he has to die.

    Yeah, it’s like that.

    The beauty part is, these clods don’t have the smarts, or the sand, to pull a Beria on Trump.

  359. 359.

    Scout211

    @Geminid: Salon has a nice roundup of speculation. The conclusion most have is the same conclusion the the NYT has. It’s Epshteyn. Roman was likely the one named as an “agent” in the indictment and Epshteyn by then was working as a political consultant for Trump, not as one of his attorneys

    I agree that Co-Conspirator 6 is most likely Mike Roman or Boris Epshteyn. However, I would consider crossing Roman off the list because he attempted to get Ron Johnson to hand the fake electors to Pence on Jan. 6 and that person is named as ‘an agent’ in the indictment, not CC6,” HuffPost senior reporter Paul Blumenthal wrote.

     

    I believe that @fordm is probably right that Co-Conspirator 6 is Boris Epshteyn — who is a lawyer, but at that point was not acting as one, hence his description in the indictment as a political consultant,” addedformer Obama-appointed Justice Department official Eric Columbus.

  360. 360.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    @UncleEbeneezer: Ari Melber just showed an interview from Jan 2022 where Boris openly says “I was part of the process to make sure there were alternative electors”.

    It most likely him.

  361. 361.

    Gvg

    I understand and agree with the justice is a process and this has to be done right, however realistically politics are still happening and it IS bad that this trial and the others followed by hopefully convictions has and will take so long. I don’t see a solution either. I think that the political problems caused by Trump and his radical Republican enablers to spread the conspiracy lie that what he and they did was right not wrong for years longer before it got to a court of law, is going to be a political problem for America for decades from now. However, it was going to be that way, even if the trial was the next day with all the same evidence, which was impossible anyway. A significant part of our population has been infected with conspiracy thinking and anti logic for some time now. A part of our side too, though not currently causing this political problem but contributing to a lack of logic helps marinate this stupidity.

    Whenever we have more problems, and we will, people are going to say if only we had….more and more. But I don’t see how we really could have without also screwing up the legal process, and that was the only part of it we had a hope of succeeding at.

    The re educating of our cult dimwits is a long term project which will take more than one process to work. My wish is get basic education back under control. I’d like to weed out too much deference to homeschooling and charter schools. Get religious schools out of public funding too. Teach how to evaluate sources starting early. Be ready for the fight back. I don’t know how to do those things, but I know they must be done.

  362. 362.

    bbleh

    @rikyrah: @zhena gogolia: @kalakal: uhh, given what I’ve read of what he’s said in the past, I don’t think he meant that the “spectacle” that would “forever scar” etc. is the TRIAL.  I think he meant the whole sordid Jan. 6 thing — the very thing the trial is intended to bring under the law.  He is very definitely NOT a fan of TFG, nor of MAGAtry, nor any of the other authoritarian BS that’s taken root among Republicans.

  364. 364.

    kalakal

    @Jackie:

    FFS! What is with these pseudo macho chickenhawks. He military service was as a JAG yet he talks as if he was some twisted prepubescent’s idea of Royal Marine Commando. He struts around in a military outfit that makes him look a gas station attendant uttering pseudo military piffle. Slit throats? The creep isn’t even capable of using cutlery for eating

  365. 365.

    Subsole

    @eversor:

    They are deeply, DEEPLY insecure about their own. So they project their fear onto others. Standard proc for them, honestly.

    That and some of them probably aren’t as straight as they think they are. Not even gay, or closeted, or self-hating, or anything that complex. Just ragingly insecure and never trained or equipped to healthily express appreciation for the male body.

    Or the female one, for that matter. “Claim my tits,”??? Who the fuck talks like that??

  369. 369.

    Subsole

    @Geminid:

    I’unno man. I have been falling-down-drunk-in-lust with an absolute goddess of a woman and NEVER have I talked like that.

    He’s a grown man acting like a toddler. It’s creepy. Like a 40 year old woman pretending to be a junior-high cheerleader creepy. Not trying to kink shame or whatever, but if someone wanted me to pretend I was an underage boy, I would be asking some questions. Because that’s more red flags than a fuckin’ May Day Parade in Moscow, dude.

  370. 370.

    Mike in NC

    I’ve thought for years that Boris Epshteyn reported directly to the Kremlin about what their puppet Trump was doing.

  371. 371.

    Geminid

    @Subsole: Yeah, there’s definitely something wrong with Guliani besides being drunk. Although it sounds like he’s been hitting the sauce for a long time, and that can really mess up someone’s mind.

  372. 372.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    @Subsole: ​
     

    Beetlejuice is a 1988 American fantasy horror comedy film

    )
    In the film, saying the name “Beetlejuice” thrice is the key to summoning him.

  377. 377.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Immanentize:

    “If Napoleon had a B-52 Stratofortress at Waterloo, all of us in the US would be speaking French.” 

    And the B-52’s would have written Shack d’amour!

  380. 380.

    Immanentize

    @kalakal: i happen to 💖 Johnny Hallyday.

    I play this version of  Hey Joe for my criminal law class — re: domestic violence (both physical and aesthetics?)

    ETA everyone should have a horn section like Johnny H.

  382. 382.

    NotMax

    @kalakal

    Thing I learned recently.

    During the early 1930s a theater in London presented a play about Napoleon written by Benito Mussolini. Its run was not deemed a success and soon closed.

  383. 383.

    Immanentize

    @mrmoshpotato:

    Si vous voyez un panneau fané sur le côté de la route qui dit 15 miles à la.
    Cabane D’Amour! Cabane d’amour ouais ouais
    Je suis headin’ down the Atlanta autoroute,
    Lookin’ pour l’amour escapade
    Dirigé par amour pour une escapade, escapade amour
    Je me suis acheté une voiture, il est aussi gros qu’une baleine
    Et nous sommes headin’ jusqu’à la Cabane d’Amour
    J’ai une Chrysler, elle est d’environ 20 places.
    Alors dépêchez-vous et apportez l’argent de votre juke-box.

    Bien la Cabane d’Amour est un peu de la vieille place
    Où nous pouvons nous réunir

    Love Shack baby, Love Shack bay-bee.
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack (l’amour de bébé, c’est à où il est)
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack (l’amour de bébé, c’est à où il est)

    Signe dit. Woo. rester à l’écart des imbéciles,
    parce que l’amour règne au Lo-o-ove Shack!
    Eh bien, il est placé en arrière au milieu d’un champ,
    Juste une vieille cabane funky et je dois y retourner
    Paillettes sur le matelas
    Paillettes sur l’autoroute
    Des paillettes sur le porche de la maison
    Paillettes dans le couloir

    Bien la Cabane d’Amour est un peu de la vieille place
    Où nous pouvons nous réunir

    Love Shack baie-d’abeilles! Cabane d’amour de bébé!
    Love Shack, c’est là que ça se passe!
    Love Shack, c’est là que ça se passe!
    Un câlin et un baiser, une danse et un amour,
    On porte à côté de rien car il fait chaud comme un four
    Toute la cabane shimmies!
    Ouais, toute la cabane shimmies!
    Tout le shack shimmies quand tout le monde est
    Movin’ autour et autour et autour et autour de!
    Tout le monde bouge, tout le monde groove bébé!
    Les gens se rangent dehors juste pour descendre
    Tout le monde bouge, tout le monde groove bébé!
    Funky petite cabane! Funky petite cabane!
    Hop dans mon Chrysler, c’est aussi gros qu’une baleine
    Et c’est à propos de mettre à la voile!
    Je me suis acheté une voiture, c’sièges sur vingt
    Alors amène ton argent pour le juke-box.
    La Cabane d’Amour est un peu de la vieille place

    Où nous pouvons nous réunir
    Cabane d’amour de bébé! Love Shack baie-d’abeilles.
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack (l’amour de bébé, c’est à où il est)
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack (l’amour de bébé, c’est à où il est)

    Bang Bang Bang sur la porte, bébé!
    Frapper un peu plus fort, bébé

    Bang Bang Bang sur la porte, bébé!
    Je ne peux pas vous entendre
    Bang Bang Bang sur la porte, bébé!
    Frapper un peu plus fort, au sucre!!!

    Bang Bang Bang sur la porte, bébé!
    Je ne peux pas vous entendre!
    Bang Bang Bang sur la porte, bébé!

    Frapper un peu plus fort!
    Bang Bang Bang sur la porte, bébé!
    Bang bang! Sur la porte, bébé!
    Bang bang! Sur la porte!
    Bang bang! Sur la porte, bébé!
    Bang bang!
    Vous êtes quoi?.
    Toit en étain, rouillé!
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack!
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack! (l’amour de bébé, c’est à où il est, ouais)
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack! (l’amour de bébé, c’est à où il est)
    Love Shack, baby, Love Shack!
    Où est l’amour, où la Cabane d’Amour.

  386. 386.

    Immanentize

    @NotMax: “Look, You got something, I admit it, but the crowd is as likely to throw tomatoes at your corpse as applaud.”

  390. 390.

    Citizen Alan

    @David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch: Reminds me of last easter when I was at my sister’s house.  Somehow I was drawn into a political discussion against my will with my two nephews. And in response to a perfectly innocuous comment by me, my sister asked me in an utterly hateful tone of voice to give one reason why I would support joe biden. I took a second to collect myself and said very calmly “Because on every issue that is important to me, joe biden agrees with me and the republicans are opposed to me.”

    And that was enough to center literally running out of the room in squalling hysterics, saying that she needed to take a nerve pill.

  392. 392.

    kalakal

    @Immanentize: He was truly hilarious in Crime Spree. The scene where he and Renaud are squabbling over which radio station to listen to is one of the best in-jokes ever.

  393. 393.

    way2blue

    Yikes.  Three zillion comments.  FWIW.  I wanted to mention that ‘The Bulwark’ podcast has an audio version of the indictment.  It’s about an hour & half long.  Spoken by an AI guy, but still very easy to follow.  I listened to it between running errands and walking my Wednesday six miles.  Astonishing detail.  With a drumbeat of Trump knowingly repeating fraudulent dribble after being told repeatedly it was dribble.  Been holding my breath for a Jack Smith to pull us back from the brink.

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