Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Days Since JD Vance Insulted Women Across America: Zero

After dobbs, women are no longer free.

Not all heroes wear capes.

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”

Sadly, media malpractice has become standard practice.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Oh FFS you might as well trust a 6-year-old with a flamethrower.

If you’re pissed about Biden’s speech, he was talking about you.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

Let the trolls come, and then ignore them. that’s the worst thing you can do to a troll.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

Dear Washington Post, you are the darkness now.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

Let there be snark.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

The arc of the moral universe doesn’t bend itself. it’s up to us.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

When you’re a Republican, they let you do it.

It’s easier to kill a dangerous animal than a man who just happens to have different thoughts/values than one’s own.

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

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Reader Interactions

387Comments

  8. 8.

    CaseyL

    Per Rachel, we now wait for the indictments to be unsealed, and she doesn’t know when that will be.

  10. 10.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Weissman is the legal analyst…ugh.  Countdown to him bashing Garland in 3, 2, 1…

    Oh well at least I have good beer!!

  13. 13.

    Righteous Hazard

    I dunno if the timing is random, but if it isn’t, I would like to tip my hat to the DA.

    Usually, you get some legal action like this earlier in the day and the GOP treason team has time to do a distraction and get the talking points and guests lined up for the evening news shows.

    Not this time. The arrival of the indictments IS the news, and is happening fresh, live on the evening news, with no prebuttal or distraction possible

    Suck it, team treason. Well done, DA Fani Wills.

  14. 14.

    Alison Rose

    I don’t know which thread to comment in, but I wanna hear the damn details. Does the Devil have to go back down there to weasel it outta them?

  19. 19.

    HeleninEire

    Hi TaMara. I love you to death. But is there anyway you can take this down so I can only follow the last post?

  20. 20.

    Elizabelle

    My internet just came back on.  Tells me I need to be somewhere with cable when TIFG’s verdicts come down.

  30. 30.

    Mai Naem mobileI

    The Biden tweets all wrong. Everybody knows Biden would be eating a three scoop ice cream cone.

  32. 32.

    TaMara

    @UncleEbeneezer: I suspect it was either recorded or they new early enough that she rescheduled.

    But it would be awesome if she was on set and they could chat about it. I’d get the popcorn and wine to join them.

  34. 34.

    Alison Rose

     

    The clerk of the Fulton County Superior Court has returned to her office with the documents. She said that “worst case,” it’ll be three hours until copies are made public.

    HAHAHAHA WEST COAST BEST COAST.

  35. 35.

    Mai Naem mobileI

    How do the sentences work if he gets convicted everywhere? Consecutive or concurrent? I mean I know practically it doesn’t make a difference but I still want to know.

  39. 39.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Baud:

    Wow. Grand jury members are public.

    For any lawyers, is that SOP? If I was on the GJ, I’m not sure I’d want my name public so I could be harassed by the MAGA cult

  46. 46.

    Ken

    @Mai Naem mobileI: How do the sentences work if he gets convicted everywhere? Consecutive or concurrent?

    I am reminded from a line in Terry Pratchett’s Small Gods, where the Omnian Church found a man guilty of heresy and had him displayed in every town of their empire. As they had a lot of towns, they had to cut him into small pieces.

  49. 49.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    So to summarize, it’s only been revealed the number of indictments. Not who’s been indicted (aside from Trump, obviously) and what those charges are

  51. 51.

    RaflW

    Ahhh, just back from a meeting and errands, and sitting down to a cream cheese frosted pumpkin bar. And some news.

  53. 53.

    Greg T

    @Mai Naem mobileI:

    How do the sentences work if he gets convicted everywhere? Consecutive or concurrent? I mean I know practically it doesn’t make a difference but I still want to know.

    Unless a particular statute says differently (requiring consecutive, for instance), it is usually up to whichever judge(s) pronounce sentence later. That judge decides whether the new time can be served concurrently with whatever the defendant is currently imprisoned for, or whether it needs to be consecutive afterwards.

  55. 55.

    Ishiyama

    You go with RICO in one indictment, and the predicate crimes in separate indictments. Maximizes chances of convicting of something.

  62. 62.

    Erin

    Oops, indicted again
    I played with your votes
    Got lost in my head
    Ooh, baby, baby
    Oops, I think I’m above
    The law, but the jury says that
    I’m not that innocent

  65. 65.

    Jeffro

    “Hello, boss?  Yes…I had plans to show up for work tomorrow, but…sometimes life just gets in the way…”

    LOLOL

  71. 71.

    RaflW

    Just hearing from Gwen keys Fleming that there are no “no bills”, meaning that all charges that D.A. Willis put forward were taken up by the Grand Jury and accepted for charging. And that all persons Willis intended to charge will be charged.

  76. 76.

    LAO

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Apparently, according to Gwen Keyes Fleming, Former Dekalb County DA, it is the ordinary course of business in Georgia that the defendants are entitled to know the name of the grand jurors.  This is not how we do things in New York.

  77. 77.

    BeautifulPlumage

    Dang! Too hot to bake, I should’ve pick up a celebratory treat when out earlier today. Maybe a nice ice cream treat tomorrow.

    Good thing Popehat is west coast

  79. 79.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @zhena gogolia:

    I hadn’t seen that gif in awhile either. Never knew what it was from until I looked up just now. That’s Jason Momoa before he was super famous where he’s guest staring in a CW show called The Game from 2009

  81. 81.

    CaseyL

    @Righteous Hazard: ​
     

    That’s a very good point. The GOP will pull an all-nighter to have their talking points ready by tomorrow, but it’s very unlikely they’ll have any ready by tonight. Just the generic ones about weaponized justice departments, and persecution of the GOP front-runner…

    Hell, they’ll go with that BS anyway. They haven’t even tried (SFAIK) to discuss the actual specifics of the document indictment or the J6 indictment.

  83. 83.

    SpaceUnit

    I’m late to the party so forgive me if this has already been covered, but are the indictments sealed?

    I’m watching NBC and they don’t seem to know who’s been indicted for what.

  91. 91.

    Redshift

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    For any lawyers, is that SOP? If I was on the GJ, I’m not sure I’d want my name public so I could be harassed by the MAGA cult

    It’s a Georgia quirk. Definitely not the case for federal grand juries, and my impression is that grand jurors are also secret in most states.

  96. 96.

    Sebastian

    @Alison Rose:

    I read earlier today that in Georgia, the defendant has to prove they won’t influence witnesses as a condition for bail.

    If we are lucky, Trump will go to jail tonight.

  97. 97.

    WV Blondie

    Any nominations (other than TFG, of course) for those indicted? My husband’s praying that Lindsey Graham is on the list.

  99. 99.

    trollhattan

    Leg is back in session, bringing morons to the Sacramento heat.

    It didn’t take long for the school-focused culture wars to take center stage in Sacramento. On Monday, lawmakers’ first day back from summer break, the battle lines were clearly drawn in competing political events.

    …

    Many of the parental rights activists that gathered at the Capitol on Monday got their start protesting statewide shutdowns and vaccine and mask mandates during the pandemic. “I didn’t have a political background prior to this. I didn’t even know what the Republican Party or Democrat was,” said Shaw. School shutdowns during the pandemic motivated Shaw, then a personal trainer, photographer and real estate agent, into action. Eventually, her local Republican party “offered us a hand and gave us a voice,” she said. She was recruited to the California GOP’s Trailblazer program, their candidate training initiative, and was elected to Chino Valley’s school board.

    The Freedom Angels, also present at the rally, formed in 2019 to protest vaccine mandates for public school students. During the COVID-19 pandemic, the movement took off to protest statewide shutdowns. Now, it is turning its attention to school curriculum and parental rights.

    Parental notification policies are the latest flashpoints of the child-focused culture war. Last month, the state launched a civil rights investigation into Chino Valley Unified School District for its passage of the policy. Sonja Shaw, president of Chino Valley Unified School District and champion of for parental notification, headlined the rally. Shaw told The Bee that the state subpoenaed her emails and text messages as part of the investigation.

    By her side was Assemblyman Bill Essayli, R-Riverside, who introduced a bill earlier this year that would have made the parental notification policy adopted by Chino Valley a statewide mandate. The bill got no airtime in the Legislature, compelling Essayli to work through the local level. “I am taking my bill to every school district up and down this state,” he said to the crowd at the Capitol. A few weeks after Chino Valley passed its policy, Murrieta Valley Unified School District took up the measure.

    https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article278248118.html#storylink=cpy

    “Angels?”

  102. 102.

    CaseyL

    I used up my free MSNBC streaming time watching the courtroom, so thanks in advance to anyone who can report on Hillary and Rachel.

  104. 104.

    Redshift

    @SpaceUnit:

    I’m late to the party so forgive me if this has already been covered, but are the indictments sealed?

    No, they’re just going through an administrative process before being released in 2-3 hours, probably. The judge could have announced what the charges were and who was charged, from how I’ve heard it explained, but chose not to. However, we wouldn’t have gotten the entire indictment at that point in any case.

  107. 107.

    pat

    Watching msnbc.  Hilary on now.  What a great evening.  What a shame that she was not elected.

    10 indictments, some RICO…

    Got to say:  LOCK THEM ALL UP.

  112. 112.

    PaulWartenberg

    @Sebastian:

    trump has to first appear for arraignment where the bail situation gets figured out. Considering the social media threats trump issued, he should face a high bail but likely won’t be held without it. I dunno if the magistrate overseeing the arraignment can issue a gag order (or forcibly take away trump’s social media accounts for the duration of the trial).

  113. 113.

    Elizabelle

    Delighted to come back upstairs and — it’s Hillary!

    BUT:  please do not leave the impression that this follows from Trump.  It was already there — Limbaugh, Murdoch, the moneybags; Trump saw the corruption and jumped on board.

    The lies do not start with Trump.

  116. 116.

    cain

    @CaseyL: every channel I’ve seen (I really just wanted cspan) they have republicans on. So giving those fuckers the messaging advantage

  120. 120.

    Redshift

    @trollhattan:

    “I didn’t have a political background prior to this. I didn’t even know what the Republican Party or Democrat was,” said Shaw.

    Bet googling could easily show that’s a lie. Since at least the Tea Party, fake nonpartisanship has been one of if their go-to moves.

  121. 121.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Hillary saying “So called ‘Never Trumpers'”…and I am losing it, lol.  Forgot how much I love her :)

  122. 122.

    dmsilev

    We’re all going to be so disappointed when we learn that TFG was indicted on three counts of jaywalking and two of removing the tag from a mattress.

  124. 124.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @trollhattan:

    I didn’t even know what the Republican Party or Democrat was,” said Shaw.

    There it is. “The Democrat Party” is always a thing in their rhetoric.

    Now, it is turning its attention to school curriculum and parental rights.

    Parental rights? These people never actually care children’s rights

    @Redshift:

    @LAO:

    Thanks. I personally think it’s a bad idea to reveal their names, especially with Trump’s unbalanced freaks mucking around. We’ll see

  125. 125.

    tobie

    Gawd, I love Hillary. She’s sharper and more insightful and more mature than just about anyone in American politics right now. It almost hurts. What a great President she would have been.

  133. 133.

    Alison Rose

    NYT trying to rain on our parade

    The Fulton County clerk said the grand jury returned 10 indictments, but it’s important to remember that this grand jury has been empaneled for weeks, hearing evidence in a number of cases. It’s possible the jurors had more than the Trump case to vote on today.

  136. 136.

    Sister Golden Bear

    Any speculation on why they’re pushing it through tonight?

    Since witnesses who were scheduled to appear tomorrow got told to show up today, it definitely seems like something accelerated the time table.

  139. 139.

    twbrandt

    Just think, Donald could have remained a corrupt NYC real estate developer, living in the lap of luxury, sycophants and yes-men fawning over him; but no, he had to reach for the brass ring. And now he’s fucked.

  142. 142.

    Elizabelle

    Just try to find any info on Biden on the FTF NYT’s website “front page.”

    There is rarely even a photo of him, unless it’s because those jackholes publish a story about how unpopular he is.

    Seriously.  Look at the major newspaper websites.  And try to figure out who is president.

    He is invisible.

    That is not an accident.

    The FTF NYTimes editor is Joe Kahn.  He is abominable.

  143. 143.

    Redshift

    @prostratedragon:

    That surprised me a little. Wonder if they can delay the release of names.

    Apparently the names are on the indictment, and even jurors who were absent and didn’t vote on charges are just crossed out, not redacted. I would assume there’s some process for keeping them secret in extraordinary circumstances (like organized crime), but who knows? Georgia is definitely weird.

  148. 148.

    Another Scott

    Her comments about TIFG rooting against the USA women’s national team are exactly right, and it’s good she pushed back against Rachel’s surprise. It’s the misogyny and patriarchy and white supremacy – all of it.

    She’s really good at this stuff. I hope she gets more air time going forward.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  149. 149.

    Elizabelle

    @LAO:  The FTF NYTimes reporting — and lack thereof —  is not by accident.

    Their political desk and executive editor are fucking deplorables.

    I am thinking how they never paid any penalty, or any price, for publishing all of Judith Miller’s disinformation. They have blood on their hands.  Blood, blood, blood.

  152. 152.

    Shalimar

    @Alison Rose: Indictments is not the total number of charges or the total number of defendants.  Both could be higher than 10.  An individual indictment can have multiple charges and defendants.

  154. 154.

    Geminid

     

    @SpaceUnit: I think Ms. Willis is wise to get the state’s side out as early as possible.  A lot of people will miss the press conference, but a lot would miss it even if it were in prime time. Media sites including every internet commentator will watch it, record it, and have plenty of time to break the story down for the rest of us.

  158. 158.

    tobie

    @Elizabelle: So true. Occasionally the Times will run a story about the revival of US manufacturing but they’ll never give credit to Biden & the Democrats for having enacting policies that enabled the turn-around in manufacturing in the US.

  161. 161.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Alison Rose: Right?  Ok now I have dust in my eye…

    I forgot how much I loved her incredible combination of intellect and absolute fearlessness.

  162. 162.

    Yarrow

    @Another Scott:

    Her comments about TIFG rooting against the USA women’s national team are exactly right, and it’s good she pushed back against Rachel’s surprise. It’s the misogyny and patriarchy and white supremacy – all of it.

    It’s super annoying that Rachel showed any level of surprise. It’s been clear for ages that it’s the white patriarchy doing everything they can to maintain or take back control and they’re fighting every one and everything that they think threatens that.

  163. 163.

    Eunicecycle

    @Alison Rose: when I read her book about the election I literally cried to think we could have had this brilliant, funny, compassionate woman as our president. Instead we got the Orange Menace.

  166. 166.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Yarrow: It’s super annoying that Rachel showed any level of surprise. It’s been clear for ages that it’s the white patriarchy doing everything they can to maintain or take back control and they’re fighting every one and everything that they think threatens that.

    The surprise was because you’re not allowed to say that on television.

  168. 168.

    tobie

    @cain: I tuned in tonight, not yet knowing about the indictments, because Rachel Maddow had announced HRC would be her guest on Monday. Wow, can Hillary think fast on her feet and be so thoughtful and articulate on the spot.

    The comment at the end of the interview about today’s Trump party rooting against America was so right–terse but true.

  172. 172.

    cain

    I forget was the orange menace there at all ? I assume they have his perp photo all taken care of.

  173. 173.

    Alison Rose

    @Another Scott: Maddow’s response bugged me too, because I also think homophobia, particularly against women, plays a role too. Trump hates women in general, but lesbians are even more useless to him, and Rapinoe being the most outspoken member of the team and also being super gay certainly was part of this.

  174. 174.

    cain

    @tobie:

    It was. Imagine an entire set of flag waving assholes who are rooting against the American women’s team is some bullshit right there.

    They resent that women sports is popular that it’s getting exposure instead of the oh so important men sports.

  175. 175.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @C Stars: Isn’t it a little sus that Biden’s principle challenger is being indicted just as the primaries are revving up?

  176. 176.

    Alison Rose

    WOULD YOU SHUT UP, MAN?

    A new statement from the Trump campaign accuses Fani T. Willis, the Fulton County district attorney, of being a “rabid partisan” and says her election interference investigation is based on “fabricated accusations.” The campaign tied the investigation to the Biden administration, despite the fact that it came from a state prosecutor.

  178. 178.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Another Scott: The best.  And I love Obama and I love Biden, but Hillary has a brutal honesty is just NEXT LEVEL!  Maybe it even hurt her in 2016, but I always feel like “yes, straight into my veins!”

  179. 179.

    SpaceUnit

    @Geminid:

    Yeah.  I wonder if security issues played a role as well. Probably less chance of organized violence if you reveal the indictments late at night.

  181. 181.

    NotMax

    @cain

    No, this was announcement and imminent release of indictments. He’ll have to be there for arraignment (barring any extraordinary exclusion granted).

  182. 182.

    tobie

    @Elizabelle: Me too. I tell every person in the home trades when they complain about Biden, “What, you don’t like the revival of manufacturing, the trade surplus, unprecedented job growth, US global leadership?” That usually shuts them up.

    I expect FOX to air rightwing spin. I’ve been stunned to see the NYT sink so low. I found this article by Thomas Zimmer about Chris Licht illuminating. Being irritated about so-called wokeness is a gateway drug to wholesale revanchist politics.

  189. 189.

    Bupalos

    We need a woman president.

    And I think people are dead wrong to think being a woman itself would be an electoral negative. Clinton was not really a talented politician, she was a self-made wonk with a confusing history and an undefined place on the political spectrum. And a family dynasty drag without any family dynasty advantages. In so many words she’ll tell you that herself. I feel like we’re setting up for a once bitten twice shy kind of situation, talking ourselves out of Female talent because “misogyny.”

  191. 191.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @pat: Yes. What a shame Hillary wasn’t elected. The interview was good, Rachel shut up and fuck yeah, she was right about near everything.

  192. 192.

    patrick II

    @twbrandt:

    Trump won accidentally.  Like many Republican candidates, he was just trying to build up a brand name.  But that engendered an “I don’t give a fuck” attitude that ironically helped him win.  Once in, he found he loved being worshiped and having so much power.

  195. 195.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @C Stars:Does the electorate really want to settle for competence, steadiness, and effectiveness in a leader[?]

    We’ll never be able to sell it to the networks…

    will the stars–and voting machines–align for a dashing lawbreaker?

    (Individual definitions of “dashing” may vary)

  197. 197.

    Jeffro

    @Alison Rose: hey sorry trump and trumpistas, but when only Democrats will stand up for the rule of law, THAT’s who’s gonna indict you.

    WHERE ARE THE REPUBLICANS?

    WHY WON’T THEY STAND UP FOR AMERICA AND THE RULE OF LAW?

    or to put it more simply

    IF THIS WAS A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT WHO PULLED THIS SHIT, HE’D ALREADY BE HANGING FROM A LAMPPOST ON CONSTITUTION AVENUE!

  199. 199.

    Elizabelle

    @tobie:  The FTF NYTimes is nepotism and elitism central.  Joe Kahn dragged himself up by his bootstraps.  His father was a grocery store magnate who co-founded Staples.  Kahn attended Harvard.

  200. 200.

    C Stars

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation:

    (Individual definitions of “dashing” may vary)

    dashing in the sense of dashing the Republican Party’s head on a rock, in this case. Although the NYT does seem to have a soft spot for doughy white nationalists.

  201. 201.

    Old School

    Opinion | I’m a conservative who bleeds states rights to my core. But when will federal officials in Congress, the Supreme Court, the CIA, or Space Force step in and stop Georgia state officials from prosecuting Donald Trump for his multiple state crimes?— New York Times Pitchbot (@DougJBalloon) August 15, 2023

  202. 202.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @C Stars: dashing in the sense of dashing the Republican Party’s head on a rock, in this case.

    Oh, then please proceed, Mr. Trump.

  204. 204.

    Alison Rose

    @Jeffro: Seriously. I know the “Imagine if Obama…” thing is a little trite, but still IMAGINE IF OBAMA!!!! Good God, they’d have drawn and quartered him on the Capitol steps by January 8.

  205. 205.

    HumboldtBlue

    Wow, Rachel Maddow talks a lot. And Chris Hayes has an eternal “please slap me face.”

  210. 210.

    tobie

    @Elizabelle: Oh my, I had no idea Joe Kahn was born not just with a silver spoon but a 14K-gold spoon in his mouth. he sounds just like Jared Kushner.

  214. 214.

    NotMax

    “Whaddaya mean we can’t petition to move the state charges to West Virginia? That’s a state!”
    //

  217. 217.

    Bupalos

    @NotMax: NOT LIKE THAT!!!

    In seriousness, we’ve got a lot game-ready on the LadyDems bench.  Whitmer for one is an underrated talent right now. And a lot in the pipeline.

  220. 220.

    RaflW

    @patrick II: Once in, he found he loved being worshiped and having so much power.

    But hated doing even a single iota of work. So the country accelerated its crumbling and flying apart (the easier to rob it via corruption, conveniently).

    And yet, Trump voters, when asked, say “But he did so much as President.” I doubt they could name anything he actually did, but reporters don’t ever seem to follow up on that.

  222. 222.

    Righteous Hazard

    @Bupalos: Everything you say about not letting what happened to Hillary make us shy of nominating women can be true, but you seem a little too quick to dismiss misogyny.

    Simply put, there was enough rabid misogyny in this country to elect Donald fucking Trump as president in 2016. Donald fucking Trump. Occam’s razor applies here, and by far the simplest explanation is misogyny.

    But you are right that we just need to nominate women and keep nominating them until misogyny is beaten.

  224. 224.

    Elizabelle

    Muting MSNBC.  You will have to tell me if anything else happens

    Reading the LA Times about Maui.  Some people who fled to the ocean may have died of smoke inhalation.  There are allegedlly also “bodies in trees.”

    So sad.  The 21st century arrives, with fangs and claws.

  225. 225.

    RaflW

    Anyone staying on MSNBC/Rachel & Co. Her item right now about how the GA government can remove Fani in as little as 8 weeks from now. Gulp.

  227. 227.

    Sure Lurkalot

    Hillary can’t slap the people who brought her but her ending tirade about how NO ONE KNOWS THE GOOD BIDEN HAD DONE blame on the media, THAT MEANS YOU TOO RACHEL and all the rest of your crew bringing us the Trump show like it was 2016.

  228. 228.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Yarrow: ​ 

    Ahhh, I didn’t realize there was a pending press conference.

    And for the commentariat, is there a meaning to the black and red motif of the set tonight? I mean, those are Georgia Bulldog colors…

  231. 231.

    Jeffro

    @Alison Rose: it ALWAYS bears repeating (and perhaps re-beating, as in beating RWNJs over the head with it) to the GOP and the snooze media: if a Democratic candidate for anything had done a tenth of this shit, y’all would be calling for a thousand times the consequences.

    They’re fucking ridiculous.  240+ years of free and fair elections, with the losers accepting the results (however grudgingly) and now we’re supposed to just take one lifelong con man’s social media protestations about losing as a ‘case’?  As something to even fight about?

    Why didn’t he just go back to his supposed billions and heckle from afar?  We were costing him all kinds of money EVERY DAY, right, GOP?  Just by his sacrifice of holding the most powerful position in the world?

    I’ve tried to tell folks: picture Jimmy Carter pulling this shit after he lost his re-election.  Picture Bush Sr. pulling this shit after losing his re-election.  There is a reason we (as a country) are going through all of this, and it’s 1,452% to be laid at the feet of our most corrupt president* ever, who couldn’t govern and then couldn’t take the consequences of his shitty governing.

  234. 234.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    Well, this is delicious. Commentary by Ben Meiselas just now in the live stream is that in Georgia he may fall under a statute that starts with the assumption that the defendant doesn’t get bail, and they have to prove they qualify. For instance, that they won’t intimidate witnesses.​

  237. 237.

    Joseph Patrick Lurker

    @NotMax:

    @HumboldtBlue:

    What’s the deal with all the hate for Chris Hayes on Balloon Juice?

    Whenever anyone mentions him on this blog it’s almost always for the purpose of trashing him.

    None of y’all can shine Chris Hayes’ shoes.

  238. 238.

    LAO

    @RaflW: I’m watching and I expect (like Rachel), that the Governor will remove Fanni Willis as District Attorney of Fulton County because I always expect the worst of Republicans that have a super majority.

    All these pundits attribute a good faith to Republicans that I simply am unable to do.  My dog, it’s like watching Lucy with the football.

  239. 239.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Joseph Patrick Lurker: Personally, I find a lot to like about Hayes, at least as compared to the media more broadly.

    Curious, though, I only see you here to leap to the defense of poor, helpless MSM personalities. They’re the wealthy elite. They don’t need it.

    Also, fuck Jake Tapper with a rusty tire iron.

  240. 240.

    C Stars

    @wjca: Ah, shoulda known it would be the WP. The one paper (other than our two local ones)) I actually have a subscription to.

     

    One too many? The inanity…

  242. 242.

    NotMax

    @Elizabelle

    Nebulous rumors flying fast and furious. Absent confirmatory, attributable evidence from official sources, file them in the “Someone told me” or “People are saying” bin.

    I saw that LA Times piece over the weekend, and shame on them for promulgating hearsay.

  244. 244.

    smith

    @LAO: GA Gov Kemp, as slimy a Republican as he is, is not a fan of TFG. I understand TFG tried to take him down in his last election.

  245. 245.

    Eolirin

    @LAO: Kemp has no love of Trump. Nor does he need his supporters. Motherfucker endorsed his primary challenger ffs, told people to vote for Abrams instead of him.

    Obviously things could still go a shitty direction but I think the odds are a bit lower than if it was some other Republican Governor.

  246. 246.

    unrelatedwaffle

    I loved seeing HRC on MSNBC but I do quibble with characterizing misogyny and racism and “particular political stances” as “anti-American.” That shit is the MOST American. What she should have said is those ideas are fascist.

  250. 250.

    tobie

    @wjca: Aaargh. Ruth Marcus is sick. I’m convinced she loves stabbing Democrats in the back. She attacked Obama for having a “hissy fit” (her words) about FOX, she attacked Hillary in 2016, and now Fani Willis for indicting. She’s such an irritating, mealy-mouthed scold.

  251. 251.

    Shalimar

    @LAO: Kemp sees himself as the leading 2028 GOP presidential candidate so i would be a little surprised if he isn’t happy with Trump’s indictments.  It lets him get rid of the kingmaker without getting his own hands dirty.  Saving Trump’s ass isn’t necessarily in Kemp’s best interest.

  252. 252.

    unrelatedwaffle

    @HumboldtBlue: It’s my latest soapbox to rage about articles discussing all the astroturfy nonsense that fail to mention the astroturfing. It’s so important to know, but sooooo many articles act like these people are legit.

  253. 253.

    BeautifulPlumage

    @HumboldtBlue: see their latest – a company called Influenceable to pay gen z social media influencers to push RWNJ talking points. TX Tribune.

    That little fucker Fuentes is pissed that it got reported – good

  257. 257.

    LAO

    @smith: @Eolirin: I am aware, but it seems unlikely that Trump is the only defendant here.  Also, Kemp doesn’t have to like Trump or respect him — didn’t he say if Trump was the candidate in 2024, he’d vote for him?

  258. 258.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    Van Jones (yes, know) on CNN is saying that this is the campaign and that Trump doesn’t believe that these indictments are hurting him from getting the GOP nomination; that he’s sucking the oxygen out of the room from other candidates, raising lots of money, and dominating the news cycle. He speculated that whether it hurts him in the general election depends on the economy; if it’s good, he’ll lose and if it’s bad he could skate by. Do any of you agree with this assessment?

  260. 260.

    smith

    @Shalimar: Also, Kemp and his Lt Gov (who testified to the grand jury today) publicly opposed the whole fake electors ploy in 2020. He is politically invested in seeing TFG go down for it.

  263. 263.

    wjca

    @LAO: Seems unlikely that the Governor of Georgia will remove Fanni Willis as District Attorney of Fulton County.  Simply because he hates Trump.  He refused to disparage the 2020 election process in Georgia when Trump did, after all.  In fact, he defended it.  And Trump has been trash talking him ever since.

    He might not have been willing to push for something like this.  But I wouldn’t be surprised if he, too, had a bag of fries to smile over while he watched.

  264. 264.

    NotMax

    @Joseph Patrick Lurker

    Not hate. I liked him on his weekend show, where his impulse to screechy bloviation was tempered and kept in check by a panel.

    Otherwise, IMHO, he has since demonstrated all the depth of morning dew.

  265. 265.

    LAO

    The press conference is being set up! I feel an immense sense of relief for those of us on the East Coast.

  266. 266.

    Brachiator

    CNN and MSNBC appear to be vamping as we wait for the Indictments to be unsealed. I was out earlier and had a huge lunch, so I don’t have room for Indictment related snacks, but this feels like party time.

  268. 268.

    cain

    @Righteous Hazard:

    But you are right that we just need to nominate women and keep nominating them until misogyny is beaten.

    Have you heard of Emerge ? It’s a group that attracts women to elect them to office.

    All across Oregon emerge has been helping women get elected into office. They are doing it in other parts of the country as well.

    My wife just graduated from Emerge. She will hopefully be a political force to be reckoned with eventually.

  272. 272.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @Redshift: Might be due to Trump’s accelerating threats against the GA prosecutor and likely witnesses. Technically legal for now, but not once charges are filed.

    Another might be that it’s late in the evening and the streets look pretty empty, so easier to prevent rioting — albeit MAGATS barely turned out for his last two indictments.

  273. 273.

    rikyrah

     

    Because of a previous crooked Georgia Governor, pardon power has been REMOVED from the authority of the Georgia Governor. Kemp can’t do shyt in terms of a pardon.

  280. 280.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Trump, Giuliani, Eastman, Meadows, Ellis, Powell, Roman, Clark….

    those are the names I recognize as Maddow read them off

    Didn’t hear a Lindsey

  282. 282.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Eolirin:

    Given the apparent speed that the Jan 6th trial may be going at, he may be in jail before the end of the primary season.

    I certainly hope so. Wouldn’t appeals go on for months and keep him out of jail though?

  290. 290.

    Elizabelle

    Lindsey Graham not in that list.  He is sobbing with relief, wherever he is.

    41 count felony indictment

  294. 294.

    hilts

    You get an indictment! You get an indictment! You get an indictment! You get an indictment! You get an indictment!…

    sort of h/t Oprah

  298. 298.

    Lyrebird

    @LAO: ​

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​
     

    If the excitement gives you the energy to do so, could one of you or another legal eagle confirm:

    If someone is tried and convicted in GA for violating a state law, would that mean the federal case would be dropped against the same person, or no because it’s about different laws?

  299. 299.

    LAO

    Watch Ari Melber reading the indictment off his phone is probably one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen.  I take it back — there all reading the indictment on their phones

  302. 302.

    Elizabelle

    Trump as the head of a criminal enterprise.

    And it’s not The Trump Organization.  Skated for years with that.

  304. 304.

    NotMax

    Now the question is, given the laundry list of names and the physical limitations within any courtroom, will the case be split among judges?

  305. 305.

    Redshift

    @unrelatedwaffle:

    I loved seeing HRC on MSNBC but I do quibble with characterizing misogyny and racism and “particular political stances” as “anti-American.” That shit is the MOST American. What she should have said is those ideas are fascist.

    To me, calling things “anti-American” is one of the ways we make it so. It isn’t denying that those things have been part of our country or are part of it now, it’s part trying of “changing the atmosphere” to make things unacceptable rather than focusing on changing individual minds. So I’m okay with it.

  308. 308.

    LAO

    @Lyrebird: The case would not be dropped — you can commit an act that violates both state and federal law and be prosecuted in both jurisdictions, (No double jeopardy attaches.)

  311. 311.

    M31

    “Defendant Donald John Trump lost the United States presidential election held on November 3, 2020.”

    now there’s some nice clear writing, you love to see it

  312. 312.

    Elizabelle

    RICO. RICO. RICO.

    Someone more clever can update the lyrics to Peter Gabriel’s “Biko.”

  313. 313.

    Redshift

    @Lyrebird:

    If someone is tried and convicted in GA for violating a state law, would that mean the federal case would be dropped against the same person, or no because it’s about different laws?

    Nope. Double jeopardy is about being tried twice for the same crime (as defined by the same law), not being tried twice for the same action.

  317. 317.

    UncleEbeneezer

    I’m glad this case will give the media the spectacle it clearly wants.  And some people were worried that the Hunter bullshit would somehow take over…I don’t think so.  The media is salivating for this one.

  324. 324.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Speaking of jurisdiction, some goofball on CNN was arguing that Willis may not have jurisdiction in this case, because the crimes “took place at the statehouse”, such as the call with Brad Raffensperger and would lead to a change of venue or something and she’s only a county DA. What’s the deal with that?

  325. 325.

    LAO

    @NotMax: No.  It can be tried in a ceremonial courtroom (Most courthouse have a giant courtroom that’s not generally used for cases).  That’s been my experience.  Also, it’s quite unlikely that they will all go to trial (pleas, cooperation, etc.)

  326. 326.

    HeleninEire

    @LAO: The left side tells us who is indicted. The right hand side spells out the crimes. Does that mean that everyone on the left hand side is charged with every crime on the right hand side?

  328. 328.

    M31

    “unindicted co-conspirators Individual l through Individual 30,”

    lol hope you’re having a nice sweaty time, unindicted co-conspirators FOR NOW

  330. 330.

    unrelatedwaffle

    @Omnes Omnibus: sounds perfect!

    @UncleEbeneezer: I never said she was unaware, I bristle at a collective American refusal to acknowledge that we have an ugly past, and calling anything we don’t like in the current moment “unAmerican.”

  332. 332.

    RaflW

    Glad to see Mark Meadows and Jenna Ellis among the names.

    I’m sure John Eastman will do great on getting that CA disbarment postponed because he’s now a criminal defendant in GA. What a maroon.

    And Giuliani. Phew, yes.

  336. 336.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Donald Trump and *18 others* have been criminally charged in Georgia:
    Rudy Giuliani
    John Eastman
    Mark Meadows
    Kenneth Chesebro
    Jeffrey Clark
    Jenna Ellis
    Ray Smith III
    Robert Cheeley
    Michael Roman
    David Shafer
    Shawn Tresher Still
    Stephen Lee
    Harrison Floyd
    Trevian Kutti
    Sidney Powell
    Cathleen Latham
    Scott Hall
    Misty Hampton

  339. 339.

    Lyrebird

    @Redshift: ​
     Double jeopardy is about being tried twice for the same crime (as defined by the same law), not being tried twice for the same action.

    Thanks!! I have a confused memory about Manafort’s different trials. But your definition is clear.

    FWIW, if some charges can stick in GA, that would be so good. Those election workers whose integrity and even lives they threatened… “deplorable” is too nice a word.

  341. 341.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Alison Rose: ​ Omnes posted a link to the full indictment at #294.

    OK, I’m a science guy, not a lawyer, so I’m going to imagine those first couple of pages as a complicated table of data, and see what stories leap out at me. My impressions:

    Count #1 is RICO. Everybody gets one of those.

    Count #41 is perjury. I only see one of those.

    Lots of counts with the same name, like “False Statements and Writings”, citing the same statutes. I’m guessing those apply to different particular violations. Some people are accused of falsifying document A, while others of falsifying document B.

    Lots of the all-star Team Crazy here. And here’s Mark Meadows as a defendant. We’ve all been wondering where he stood in Jack Smith’s investigations.

    I don’t see any names I recognize as sitting members of Congress. Dammit. I really was hoping.

  343. 343.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Harry Litman @harrylitman 58s

    The bulk of the indictment — nearly 50 0f the 98 pages–consists of the enumeration of 161 acts of racketeering activity in furtherance of the conspiracy.

    IANAL but that sounds like a lot

  350. 350.

    Tazj

    🥳🎉🎉🍾🥂 Woo Hoo!

    Seeing Hilary smiling and laughing was great!

    Now, I’m off to watch the rest of the festivities from my bed.

    And to all a good night!

  357. 357.

    Ishiyama

    It has been known for a long time that, although RICO was conceived and enacted as an instrument to be used against gangsters and drug pushers, its civil side has been a fruitful ground for private enforcement in many fields of life. One feature that was built into criminal RICO is a broad power of forfeiture, over any things used or enterprise funded or otherwise employed in the corrupt enterprise – I wonder how far that might go in this case?

  358. 358.

    Alison Rose

    Considering Beyonce is apparently doing a gig in Atlanta tonight, in my fantasy world, Fani comes out and just quotes her: “Middle fingers up, put them hands high, wave it in his face, tell him: Boy bye!”

  361. 361.

    RaflW

    I hope the Grand Jury members, names just out there for everyone, are getting some sort of protection. I do get that in an open society, part of our confidence in the justice system flows from transparency. But some of Trump’s supporters are deranged. And others are not having mental health issues, other than just being evil and immoral and wanting chaos or retribution.

  364. 364.

    LAO

    @Ishiyama: A Criminal RICO case in the feds can also include related civil forfeiture.  (Also, true in NYS under the Enterprise Corruption statute which is the state RICO version.)

    I wouldn’t expect in this prosecution though.

  365. 365.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Earlier tonight:

    FUN FACT: An early successful use of RICO was the Mafia Commission Trial of 1985-86, in which Rudy Giuliani indicted 11 mobsters, including the heads of New York’s Five Families.” Imagine if he is part of these Georgia indictments.

  375. 375.

    Mike in NC

    @dmsilev:  We recently watched ‘Blazing Saddles‘ after many years. Anyway, there is a Baskin-Robbins store in the town with a sign in the window that reads, One Flavor.

  377. 377.

    RaflW

    I guess there are still unindicted co-conspirators. So maybe Lindsey will still be red-faced, sweating, and even more raving on Fox in the days ahead.

  381. 381.

    karen marie

    Buzz kill.  Joyce Vance sent an email with an update about Planned Parenthood. The State of Texas is suing the organization for $1.8 billion.  You’ll never guess who the judge is.

    That’s right – it’s Kacsmaryk.  The guy who decided he knows more than the FDA and started the ball rolling to bar access to mifepristone.

  383. 383.

    Matt McIrvin

    @sab: Remember how Fidel Castro couldn’t stop talking about how hot Hillary Clinton was? He had a weird crush on her.

  384. 384.

    Geminid

    @Joseph Patrick Lurker: Comments on Chris Hayes here run about 50-50 positive-negative. Evidently he’s a hero to you though, so the negative comments loom larger than they actually are. But everyone is entitled to the heros they deserve, and I guess you deserve Hayes.

    As for our fitness to shine Chris Hayes’ shoes, there are many here who exceed Hayes in terms of experience, knowledge and judgement, and plenty who equal him. Hayes would be a middling Balloon Juice commenter.

  385. 385.

    Geminid

    @Joseph Patrick Lurker: Comments on Chris Hayes here run about 50-50 positive-negative. Evidently he’s a hero to you though, so the negative comments loom larger than they actually are. But everyone is entitled to the heros they deserve, and I guess you deserve Hayes.

    As for our fitness to shine Chris Hayes’ shoes, there are many here who exceed Hayes in terms of experience, knowledge and judgement, and plenty more who equal him. Hayes would be a middling Balloon Juice commenter.

  387. 387.

    Ithink

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Unfortunately, Mr. Jones will be proven right IF enough of Independents l, Democrats and non-viters decide to perceive Biden & Harris as uninspiring and sit 2024 out. One only need to look at the 2016 results to see how disastrous matters can go with only a few teams of thousands of votes across the Electoral College map.

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