Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

You can’t love your country only when you win.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

If you’re pissed about Biden’s speech, he was talking about you.

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

I was promised a recession.

I’m sure you banged some questionable people yourself.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

DeSantis transforms Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

The willow is too close to the house.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

Ah, the different things are different argument.

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Crash Course in Georgia RICO & the GA Indictment

Crash Course in Georgia RICO & the GA Indictment

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Most of us could use a crash course in Georgia RICO and a whole bunch of legal terms!

In a nutshell, from a law firm that handles RICO cases in GA  (The Church Law Firm)

The Elements of a RICO Charge in Georgia

RICO is a somewhat complicated statute. To prove the crime of RICO, there are very specific elements with their own specific definitions. The state must also prove separate underlying offenses beyond a reasonable doubt in addition to proving RICO.

Specifically, the state must prove:

the defendant committed two or more predicate crimes (which are listed in *C.G.A. § 16-14-3);

that the predicate acts were committed as part of an enterprise engaging in a pattern of racketeering activity;

and that either:

one or more of the acts that form the pattern resulted in the defendant acquiring or maintaining control of any enterprise, real property, or personal property (including money),

or

the defendant was employed by or associated with an enterprise through a pattern of racketeering.

*O.C.G.A. § 16-14-3 defines and explains what these terms mean. An “enterprise” is defined as a person or business recognized under state law or some other legal entity (such as a partnership, corporation, union, etc.); or a group or association which is not a legally recognized entity but associate and identify as a group with a common purpose or goal. An enterprise can be legitimate or illegal and can also include governmental entities.

.

Terms Defined

“Racketeering activity” means to commit, attempt, or solicit another person to commit a specific crime listed in the statute, which includes over 40 different types of offenses. Examples of included offenses, often referred to as “predicate acts” or “predicate offenses,” are homicide, theft, fraud, perjury, commercial bribery, drug distribution, drug trafficking and dozens more. The state is required to prove at least two of these offenses beyond a reasonable doubt. The offenses do not have to be charged separately in the indictment. So long as they are listed in the indictment and proved to be a predict act, which is one of the elements to prove the RICO charge itself, that is sufficient. Furthermore, the state does not have to prove every single predicate act beyond a reasonable doubt. Proving at least two acts is all that’s required.

A “pattern of racketeering activity” means engaging in at least two incidents of racketeering activity to accomplish at least one scheme or plan that have the same or similar intents, results, accomplices, victims, or methods of committing crime(s) or are otherwise connected by distinguishing characteristics and are not isolated incidents. For example, a group of individuals decide they need money fast by whatever means necessary and agree to split the profits. One steals debit cards and withdraws money from ATMs, another forges checks, and another robs supermarkets. While these are different crimes requiring separate elements of proof, they are interrelated for RICO purposes because they were all done to achieve a single goal: gaining money. If one of the individuals robbed a bank 10 years ago, got away with it, and then forged checks as part of the group’s scheme, the bank robbery likely wouldn’t be considered a predicate act because it was an isolated incident by a single individual and had no connection to the group’s plan and goal.

Predicate crimes that fall under this Act (and may be used to show a “pattern” of unlawful conduct) include the following: drug offenses, homicide, bodily injury, arson, burglary, forgery, theft, robbery, prostitution and pandering, distributing obscene materials, bribery, influencing witnesses, tampering with witnesses or victims, intimidation of a juror or court officer, perjury, tampering with evidence, commercial gambling, certain firearm offenses, illegally reproducing copyrighted material, various securities violations, certain credit card crimes, certain crimes involving titles, destroying or misrepresenting identification numbers, possessing automobile parts with missing identification features, various computer crimes, kidnapping, false imprisonment, terroristic threats, motor vehicle and aircraft hijacking, insurance fraud, usurious payday loans, deceptive commercial e-mail, and residential mortgage fraud.

A conviction under Georgia’s RICO statute will result in a 5- to 20-year sentence, a fine, or both. A judge may fine a defendant up to three times the amount of any money obtained by the defendant during the scheme.

I also found Harry Litman’s tweets very instructive.

Below are screen captures, but if you’re still reading twitter you might want to click over.

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Reader Interactions

293Comments

  1. 1.

    Ken

    I’m guessing Trump will also have to find yet another lawyer, one able to practice in Georgia? Unless one of his current ones qualifies, and doesn’t mind lots of travel. Familiarity with Georgia RICO law would also be a plus.

    EDIT: If any of the persons named in the indictment show up on August 25 and don’t have a qualified attorney (a favorite Trump delaying tactic), would the court then-and-there appoint a public defender?

  2. 2.

    dmsilev

    @Ken: I wonder whether his PAC has the grifting capability to fund lawyers for all of his codefendants and, if not, what the chances are that some of them flip and rat him out.

  3. 3.

    JPL

    @Ken: trump has a GA attorney already, Jennifer Little.

     

    Those indicted have until the 25th to turn themselves in.   Can they appear separately?

  4. 4.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @dmsilev: Out of nineteen, it is a sure thing that at least one will flip.  As they say, Jesus only had twelve, and one of them flipped.

  5. 5.

    WaterGirl

    @Ken: As I understand it, RICO is a whole different deal, and Georgia RICO is a thing all its own. If I were Trump, I would have completely separate attorneys for state cases.

    But then, I am logical and law-abiding, neither of which describes Trump.

    He is just as likely (being too cute by half) to have one set for everything in the hopes that he can delay everything because his attorneys are busy elsewhere.  Just one big shell game to Trump.

  6. 6.

    YY_Sima Qian

    As I read the posts & the articles, I am munching on pop corns late in the evening here in China. Not a healthy thing to do, but I am enjoying it!

  7. 7.

    LAO

    @dmsilev: Historically, paying for co-defendants’ lawyers in a RICO prosecution can be used as evidence to establish the racketeering enterprise. So it’s not prudent.

  8. 8.

    Roger Moore

    @dmsilev:

    what the chances are that some of them flip and rat him out.

    If I understand correctly, the flipping has already started.  As far as I know, only 3 of the fake electors are on the indictment, leaving 13 off.  It’s possible that only fake electors who did something else will be charged, but I think at least some of the fake electors have already agreed to testify.

  9. 9.

    WaterGirl

    @Omnes Omnibus: I can’t recall where I read it this morning, but they talked about Fani’s previous Rico cases.  In that one, multiple people flipped.  I don’t recall the numbers for sure, but let’s say they started with 21 – in the end, 14 were left standing, as the others had all flipped, and 13 of the 14 were convicted.

  10. 10.

    Lapassionara

    Thanks, WaterGirl. This is helpful. Emptywheel has a good explainer too.

    I’m particularly glad to see Kanye West’s publicist’s name on the list. What an odious man.

  14. 14.

    Betty Cracker

    @dmsilev: If we manage to save U.S. democracy by shit-canning Trump and the GOP’s crop of emboldened Trump-adjacent authoritarians, we’ll have a very long to-do list. But one of the items has to be revisiting laws that govern PACs.  How can it be legal to raise money for a candidate for public office and then use that money to pay legal bills?

    I also don’t understand how campaigns are forbidden from coordinating with PACs but yet when a campaign runs out of money for candidate travel, it can put a PAC in charge of transporting, say, the governor of Florida and his family to campaign stops. How the hell is that not coordination? Of course it is.

    PACs are a straight-up grift and fraud engine. They got to go.

  15. 15.

    Jeffro

    I’m trying to picture the cognitive dissonance (yes, there really is some, juuuuust a little) in the head of every MAGAt right now.  I’m also imagining the effort it’s taking for every trump enabler to continue to keep their heads in the sand.  Think of what it takes to go on the air at Fox, or Newsmax, and just keep spouting b.s. and hoping that today there’ll be some sort of new angle about Hunter Biden to fill the time and keep the GOP base from cracking.

    Picture the sheer mental energy, the will being expended, just to keep from facing the obvious truth: the lefties were right about trump all along.

  16. 16.

    WaterGirl

    @LAO:

    Historically, paying for co-defendants’ lawyers in a RICO prosecution can be used as evidence to establish the racketeering enterprise.

    hahahahaha

  17. 17.

    Manyakitty

    @WaterGirl: I think that’s the key to all of this. Trump and people like him, who never faced a consequence, see everything as a game and we’re nothing but marks.

  19. 19.

    Anyway

    Too funny to see Rudy G who made his name prosecuting RICO charges on mobsters (?) now at the receiving end…

  20. 20.

    jonas

    @LAO:Unless the co-defendants believe that Willis will be replaced, I expect there will be maximum flippage.

    Can the governor in GA summarily fire elected DAs he doesn’t like, like in FL? I don’t think Kemp would be inclined to do that, but still…

  22. 22.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @WaterGirl:

    In Howard’s office, she was eventually tasked with prosecuting high-profile murder cases and, notably, the Atlanta public schools cheating trial. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution has referred to the case as the “largest school-cheating scandal in US history”. Eleven educators were found guilty in the racketeering case, which spanned six months of testimony to become the longest trial in Georgia history. Twenty-one people accepted plea deals. Willis served as one of three lead prosecutors throughout the trial.

    From the Guardian.

  23. 23.

    jonas

    @Jeffro: That reckoning will never happen no matter how much dissonance they have to accommodate because it’s not a political movement, it’s a cult. In a cult, Dear Leader cannot fail, only be failed.

  24. 24.

    LAO

    @jonas: The legislators passed and the governor signed a measure to that end which goes into effect on 10/1/23.

    ETA: there is one difference, Georgia must establish an 8 member commission which reviews the prosecutor record before making a recommendation to the governor.

  25. 25.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Jeffro: ​the lefties were right about trump all along.

    They always knew everything we said about trump was largely accurate. That’s what they loved about him. They also thought, and continue to, that IOKIYAR.

  27. 27.

    JPL

    I had to google Michael Roman, but he has been trying to overturn elections for years.   He is the person who talked about the black panthers blocking polling sites in Philly.    LINK

     

     

    @OzarkHillbilly: She’s good!

  30. 30.

    Joseph Patrick Lurker

    @Anyway:

    Too funny to see Rudy G who made his name prosecuting RICO charges on mobsters (?) now at the receiving end…

    It’s karma. I look forward to seeing Rudy die in prison.

  32. 32.

    jonas

    @LAO: This will be interesting because the only reason Trump has been able to retain anyone at all as his counsel in all these cases is because they know his fundraising grift operation will keep making it rain for them and their firms. If something happens to that, though, I bet a bunch of them bail.

  35. 35.

    Ken

    @OzarkHillbilly: If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.

    Oh yes, I’ve been dusting off all the old standards. “Innocent people have nothing to fear from the courts” is another good one.

  37. 37.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @H.E.Wolf: For those who like a little snark with their news, the article is sub-titled: Peach-Pickin’ Time in Georgia.

    More of a burnt orange…

  38. 38.

    WaterGirl

    My hope is that the un-indicted co-conspirators will soon join the ranks of the indicted.  If I were one of the people indicted, I would seriously be looking at the (likely) un-indicted co-conspirators as items on a menu, and Lindsay Graham would look like a particularly good choice.

  39. 39.

    SFAW

    @LAO: ​

    Unless the co-defendants believe that Willis will be replaced, I expect there will be maximum flippage.

    DeathSantis is looking at ways he can suspend Willis. I mean, why stop at the FLA border?
    Of course, the flip side is that him getting rid of Willis would help TFG, so DeathSantis would probably punt. But still …

  40. 40.

    Roger Moore

    @Betty Cracker:

    As I understand it, there are multiple kinds of PACs.  There are several kinds of PAC:

    1. Affiliated PACs.  These are PACs that are set up by some existing organization like a business or union.  The organizer can pay for the administrative expenses of the PAC, but all the money the PAC gives to candidates or other PACs has to come from people affiliated with the organizer, e.g. corporate officials for a business PAC or union members for a union PAC.
    2. Unaffiliated PACs.  These don’t have a sponsor to pay expenses but can accept money from anyone who is legally allowed to donate to a federal campaign (i.e. not foreigners).
    3. Leadership PACs.  These are a kind of unaffiliated PAC that is organized by a political leader, like Trump, in theory to help other campaigns.  They aren’t allowed to donate money to the leader’s campaign, but they are allowed to cover expenses like travel, polling, consultants, etc.
    4. Super PACs.  These are also unaffiliated.  They’re allowed to accept unlimited amounts of money and spend it how they choose, though they’re supposed to be completely independent of any candidate or issue.  The independence requirement is often ignored, and the FEC is completely toothless to enforce it.

    As I understand it, the PAC that’s paying for Trump’s legal expenses is his leadership PAC, which counts his legal costs under the same category as travel, polling, consultants, and the like.  Yeah, we need a lot more laws to cover this kind of thing- donations you know are going to cover the leader’s personal expenses should be considered to be bribes- but the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to prevent it.  Even worse, they’ve effectively neutered the FEC, so there’s no real enforcement even of the pitiful laws we have.

  41. 41.

    Ken

    @WaterGirl: Lindsay Graham would look like a particularly good choice.

    “Sorry, he’s already flipped. Got anyone else?

    (I don’t think it’s happened, but I can hope that Trump might think it’s happened…)

  45. 45.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    I think Captain Apartheid has blocked out the Nitter workaround, and my old suspended account is limited 100% now – can’t browse a bit.

  46. 46.

    Rusty

    I served on a jury for a federal RICO trial against multiple members of a drug gang.  The RICO statute is complicated and to prove all the elements makes for a complicated trial, the one I was on took 5 weeks and over 70 witnesses.  The Georgia RICO statute sounds even more complicated so this will not a short trial, especially with 19 defendants and each of their lawyers having a right to examine all the witnesses.  Even finding  a jury will be a challenge, they called 130 jurors for our trial to get one complete jury, many people legitimately can’t serve for that long on a jury, on top of the normal disqualifications.

  47. 47.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @jonas: ​ If something happens to that, though, I bet a bunch of them bail.

    I don’t know if it is universal or not, but in most jurisdictions a lawyer can’t just dump a client in the middle of a case except for very specific reasons. Not getting paid is not one of them.

  48. 48.

    Betty Cracker

    @jonas: & @LAO: I’ve been told (by attorneys here, IIRC) that there’s nothing the feds can do about the FL governor summarily firing elected prosecutors. It has to go through the courts, which takes a long time. Meanwhile, the governor’s appointed minions are in charge of that function in a place that did not elect them. If true, I’m not surprised the same power is being assumed in GA and will probably be pursued by other red states. It’s a loophole to authoritarian power, IMO.

  49. 49.

    Scout211

    WTF?! Is he insane? This is crazy.  Do his lawyers know this is planned?

    The latest on Trump’s social:

    A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election Fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete & will be presented by me at a major News Conference at 11:00 A.M. on Monday of next week in Bedminster, New Jersey. Based on the results of this CONCLUSIVE Report, all charges should be dropped against me & others – There will be a complete EXONERATION! They never went after those that Rigged the Election. They only went after those that fought to find the RIGGERS!

  55. 55.

    bbleh

    Hmmm, I dunno, gonna be awful difficult to prove, given that a lot of these acts occurred openly and publicly, some on TV, and that he not only admits to but boasts about them.

  56. 56.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Scout211: They never went after those that Rigged the Election. They only went after those that fought to find the RIGGERS!

    So says the guy who tried to rig an election by fabricating a notion that it had been rigged, leading a party that has been rigging election law for decades based on fabricated notions of election rigging.

  57. 57.

    jonas

    @Betty Cracker: It’s a right-wing hack in gerrymandered states where Republicans have a lock on the governorship and statehouse and can ratfuck urban jurisdictions where voters do things they don’t like. Texas is doing it with school districts as well.

  58. 58.

    JPL

    @LAO:  Kemp wants to move on to another position.  Rumor is that he wants to run for Senate and a political move like that, would insure that he lost.

  59. 59.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @OzarkHillbilly: ​
      A lawyer can withdraw for representation if they are not paid. In the middle of a trial, it would require the judge’s consent. The judge will not consent if withdrawal would materially prejudice the client’s ability to litigate the case.

  61. 61.

    Baud

    @bbleh:

    Fani: Did you order the code red RICO predicate acts?

    Trump: I did the job I…

    Fani : [interrupts him]  Did you order the Code Red RICO predicate acts?

    Trump: You’re God damn right I did!

  63. 63.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @bbleh: Hmmm, I dunno, gonna be awful difficult to prove, given that a lot of these acts occurred openly and publicly, some on TV, and that he not only admits to but boasts about them.

    Given the propositions that no rational human being would commit a crime in public and that Trump is the most rational human being, been, or will have been; one can only logically assume that none of Trump’s public actions have ever been criminal.

    QED.

  64. 64.

    Tony Jay

    @bbleh:

    1) That bit? He didn’t mean it.

    2) The other bit? In context he meant the opposite.

    3) All the other bits? Fake News, or at the very best partisan spin.

    It’s all about wanting to find a way through, see? And not wanting to get bogged down in who may or may not have bumped up against a couple of not-fit-for-purpose legal guardrails while saving the country from Cultural Marxism.

  65. 65.

    JPL

    What’s  up with trump?

    Trump Plans News Conference for Next Monday
    August 15, 2023 at 9:04 am EDT By

     

    what Scout said

  66. 66.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Baud: They only went after those that fought to find the RIGGERS!

    Bondage isn’t my particular kink, but I’ll give anything a try.

  67. 67.

    bbleh

    @Baud: now you want something to burn incense for, it’s that Trump, convinced as always of his own infallibility and persuasive charms, and continuing to fail cognitively, INSISTS over the howls of his lawyers on taking the stand himself and clearing his name.

  68. 68.

    Anonymous At Work

    1. Each defendant must turn themselves in by August 25th to be booked, including height, weight, fingerprints, and mugshot.  ALL of them.
    2. Trying them together is gonna be LIT.  19 defendants plus attorneys.
    3. 30 unindicted co-conspirators sounds like a laundry list of key witnesses who testified under a proffer of immunity, so refusing to testify or trying to weasel out of testimony lands them in jail for perjury plus an underlying crime.
    4. 19 separate defendants will need 19 separate attorneys, or there will be HARD questions about conflicts of interest.  Especially for persons whose connection to the enterprise is 1-2 over acts, being able to reach a plea bargain is something a decent and uncorrupt lawyer would do.
  70. 70.

    Soprano2

    @Scout211: It’ll be a rehashing of all the shit they’ve already said, with the word ‘FACT’ scattered throughout on things that are not facts.

  71. 71.

    JPL

    trump is going to try to convince people not to flip.    He has to announce it before he turns himself in , because he’ll be gagged soon after.

  72. 72.

    jonas

    @SFAW: You’re thinking of FL. Apparently, as several posters have already pointed out, GA gov Kemp will have the authority to remove a DA when a new law goes into effect later this year. Kemp is on the outs with Trump, though, so whether he’s interested in throwing him a lifeline at this point is rather doubtful.

  73. 73.

    bbleh

    @Anonymous At Work: given 19 defendants plus attorneys, and that every journalist and blogger in America (and some from abroad) will be clamoring for a seat in the courtroom, plus the demands from the networks for additional cameras and the intense public interest from both MAGAts and real-world folk, the trial will be held in the State Farm Arena.

  74. 74.

    Betty Cracker

    @jonas: As we know, at certain points in U.S. history, the feds intervened when state governments abridged residents’ rights as U.S. citizens. Extreme gerrymandering and unaccountable right-wing state governments are testing the limits in all kinds of ways.

  75. 75.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Yarrow: I thought they changed the name to Xitter, where you can post Xits, like this one on my ass that just won’t pop by I expect to go away in due course of time.

  76. 76.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @JPL: trump is going to try to convince people not to flip.

    When you’re in a crime hole, keep crimin’ I guess.

  80. 80.

    WaterGirl

    @Scout211: I saw that and shook my head.

    I have to say that I was right about Trump plan to focus his over-the-line comments on the trials that are not the J6 Coup trial.  Too cute by half – I want to see whether Judge Chutkan  sees those things as separate.  Seems to me that anything he does to attack prosecutors and make his case out of court would impact all potential jury pools.

    I think she smacks Trump down hard on the timing of the trial.

  86. 86.

    Jeffro

    Today’s the day it really, truly hit me: this clown is actually going to prison.  Prison!

    Sorry GOP but we tried to tell ya.

  87. 87.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Jeffro:

    Picture the sheer mental energy, the will being expended, just to keep from facing the obvious truth: the lefties were right about trump all along.

    I’m afraid the brain works the opposite way.  It is incredibly easy to ignore facts you don’t like.  It’s the default position!  What takes effort is admitting you’re wrong.

  89. 89.

    jonas

    @JPL:  He has to announce it before he turns himself in , because he’ll be gagged soon after.

    A Hannibal Lecter-style facemask and straightjacket would be a good start…

  90. 90.

    Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride

    @Scout211: If this happens, it will probably constitute fifty or so new crimes, as well as a multifold violation of every pretrial order made so far in all his cases.  All the prosecutors must be eagerly awaiting this event.

    Fun fact:  Harry Litman was a year ahead of me in law school.  He looked and sounded exactly the same, except for the gray hair.

  91. 91.

    LAO

    @Omnes Omnibus: When I was a very new lawyer working as an associate, I made an appearance in the EDNY and Judge (DG Trager, may his memory be a blessing) leaned over and asked me if there was a problem with Mr. Green. After staring blankly at the judge for several moments, the AUSA walked over to me and whispered in my ear “he asking whether the defendant owes your boss money.”

    In hindsight, it was very funny.

  92. 92.

    Jeffro

    Whatever will the GOP base do once these crabs claw viciously at each other for the next 15 months?

    When all of trumpov’s co-conspirators flip on him?

    When he runs out of money to pay his current lawyers and has to take on a public defender?

    I have so many questions…  =)

  93. 93.

    jonas

    @Anonymous At Work:

    Trying them together is gonna be LIT.  19 defendants plus attorneys.

    They should all sit in one banquette together in the courtroom with headphones like at Nuremberg.

  94. 94.

    sdhays

    The Trump “legal” strategy is probably going to continue to be claiming, in public, that Trump is a lying liar, AND THAT’S PERFECTLY LEGAL and PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

    Of course, none of that actually addresses any of the charges he’s actually facing, and I’m not sure trumpeting (ha!) that Trump is a (legal!) lying liar who lies while lying is a brilliant campaign strategy. I guess we’ll see!

  95. 95.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Jeffro: When he runs out of money to pay his current lawyers and has to take on a public defender?

    It’s well known that public defenders are overworked and underfunded, but it’s rare a situation arises where this may be true if the public defender were assigned only one case.

  98. 98.

    Tony Jay

    @JPL:

    “Mr Trump, your ‘report’ appears to consist of a 15 page printout of conspiracy theory gobbledegook from a website called No More Nuremburgs and a folded-up My Pillow with ‘PRESIDENTS DO IT LEGALLY’ written across it in sharpie. Are you aware of this?”

    “Your Honor, my client would like to affirm that all of the documentary evidence exonerating him was safely stored in boxes at his excellent Southern White House before The Government illegally stole them.”

    “………..”

    “Honest Injun, your Honor.”

    “Okay, fine. Case dismissed then I suppose.”

    “What? Really?”

    “Jesus Wept…no, not really. Let’s play Law!”

  99. 99.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @LAO: I once had a prosecutor hold up a plea in an aggravated rioting* case until my firm got paid.

    *Not as big as it sounds.  In OH, aggravated rioting is just disorderly conduct by three or more people.  This case was a bachelor party that got out of hand.

  100. 100.

    glory b

    @Joseph Patrick Lurker: Sweet as honey, karma is a cat

    Purring in my lap ’cause it loves me,

    Stunting like a g__d__ acrobat,

    ‘Cause me & karma vibe like that.

     

    Care of the modern-day philosopher, Taylor Swift

  103. 103.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Omnes Omnibus: In OH aggravated rioting is just disorderly conduct by three or more people.

    Sounds overly broad. That’s my average Monday night. Good thing I’m in MA.

  104. 104.

    UncleEbeneezer

    In other news, yesterday was also a great day in that my wife finally found a place for her Dad to go for hospice.  He is in the ER with Stage 4 cancer and the hospital wants to release him but he can’t go back to the Independent Living facility he rents.  So my wife was really freaking out Sunday, but she finally got to talk to a lady who runs several boarding homes in Dallas and was able to find one with a space for him.  Nothing fancy, but in his budget and the care-givers seem really good.  So that is a huge burden off our shoulders.  Now she has to begin the process of moving or getting rid of a bunch of his stuff from his current apartment and then she’ll be able to come home (yay) in a week or so.

  106. 106.

    smith

    @Betty Cracker: IANAL, but I’ve been thinking that there is a voting rights case to be made against a duly elected official being removed from office by politicians without any due process.  Doesn’t this remove people’s right to elect their government officials? Doesn’t it turn those offices — in select areas only —  into basically appointed positions, while preserving the right in other areas to elect their officials? And how hard is it to demonstrate that party affiliation and/or race is the determining factor in which people get to vote and which people don’t?

  110. 110.

    p.a.

    If justice actually looks like it will prevail in any of these indictments (and from “hanging chads” to today I’ve become, well cynical is too weak a word) does anyone see an actual mental breakdown in tRump’s future- before potential convictions that is?

    How about the “wheelchair and oxygen tank” defendant gambit, Ronny Jackson wheeling President combover into court?  Don’t think his ego would allow that.

    Is Vegas posting non-extradition-nation flight odds yet?

  112. 112.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @sdhays:

    The Trump “legal” strategy is probably going to continue to be claiming, in public, that Trump is a lying liar, AND THAT’S PERFECTLY LEGAL and PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

    So far, he’s going the other way, proclaiming that everything he did was legal because he was right all along and he was just trying to fix other people’s cheating.  Man, I hope he uses that in the courtroom.  It’s possible he won’t let his lawyers do anything else.  Remember his deposition on the rape case?  He literally could not bring himself to say that rape is bad.

    EDIT –
    @p.a.:

    does anyone see an actual mental breakdown in tRump’s future- before potential convictions that is?

    Narcissists tend to commit suicide in prison.  If the world is not coddling them, they don’t see any point to living.

  113. 113.

    Wapiti

    The thing I don’t get is the racketeering element that requires the defendant to take over an enterprise or real property or material property with the overt acts. I don’t see it, unless it’s the fundraising?

  117. 117.

    Geminid

    @jonas: I’m not sure Kemp can remove a District Attorney. The legislature set up a process whereby a panel of five members is given investigative power,  and then a three member panel hears the evidence and decides on removal.

    Governor Kemp was allowed to select one member for each panel. His announcement of his selections was low-key: his office released a list of 77 apointments to various state boards, and the two DA panel nominees were 75th and 76th on the list.

    Kemp’s appointee to the 5-member investigative panel is a recently retired Circuit Court judge with 32 year’s tenure. A friend knows the judge, and thinks he’ll play the role pretty straight.

  120. 120.

    Betty Cracker

    @smith: Yep. There may be lawsuits in motion on those grounds already. If so, I haven’t heard about it, but there are so damn many lawsuits, I can’t keep track!

  125. 125.

    Anonymous At Work

    @bbleh: Normal courtroom but with 1 camera, 1 pool sketch artist, and an overflow courtroom for reporters, I imagine.  It’ll be crowded but the idea that none of the 18 others will go “This is actually serious and what are the odds I’ll be taking a knife in the back!?!?!?!” to cut a deal.  RICO means that all 19 are on same hook, but some can wiggle free more easily than others.

  128. 128.

    Mai Naem mobileI

    @Betty Cracker:  Rand and Ron Paul’s family make millions off the fundraising. They get a percentage of any $$$ they raise. It’s not funds for advertising the candidate or GOTV. It’s just bribes for the candidate’s family and entourage.

  131. 131.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @rikyrah:

    The press is walking a tightrope where the slightest wrong glance could force them to see that the Republican Party is illegitimate and a white supremacist gang.

    @rikyrah:

    Yep, although I would throw in that in the time since they saw white power crack, society rejected a bunch of their other bigotries.  Their racist apocalypse is worse than they ever dreamed.

  132. 132.

    Suzanne

    @glory b:

    Care of the modern-day philosopher, Taylor Swift 

    I know she’s a Darth Susan, but that is exactly the energy we need right now.

  133. 133.

    Jeffro

    @rikyrah: A reminder: Trump’s campaign manager, deputy campaign manager, national security advisor, foreign policy advisor, personal lawyer, top political advisor have all been convicted of felonies since Trump was elected. Campaign began as criminal enterprise & expanded to the entire GOP

    100% this.

    Keep sending billionaire trump your hard-earned cash, MAGA nation!  Every dollar you send to pay his lawyers is one that you can’t spend on actual, normal Republican candidacies (if any can be found anymore)

  134. 134.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    Let us speculate: who will be the author of the IRREFUTABLE report? Peter Navarro springs to mind, but I doubt that.

  137. 137.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @JPL: If the white nationalists truly manage to assert themselves, we’ll see how long Miller stays white.

  138. 138.

    Mai Naem mobileI

    I heard a legal analyst saying that the big co conspirators like Clark and Giuliani.  may have a hard time flipping here because admitting here in effect makes you admit it in the DC case. I think Donny is going to go broke in this case. It sounds very very complicated, very very long and lots of lawyers’ billing hours.

  139. 139.

    Anyway

    The Republican Party is in its weakest position that I have ever witnessed in my nearly four decades of life an I do not understand why the press does not report this because it is an empirical and objective point.
    (https://twitter.com/magi_jay/status/1691230944173146112?s=02)

    But with the SCOTUS and gerrymandered supermajority red state leges they punch beyond their weight (popularity). Every election cycle Rs seem to have a shot of winning 2 of 3 (house/senate/POTUS). That is a lot of power. They are also ruthless in using that power when they get close. (hello McTurtle)

  140. 140.

    bbleh

    @Mr. Bemused Senior: Sidney Powell? Kimberly Guilfoyle?

    I’m sure Stephen Miller will have a tentacle in it. And that MAGAbot press aide — Cheung?  And TFG himself will edit, of course.

  142. 142.

    2liberal

    Popehat is a well known  internet based lawsplainer and gets dinged a lot about RICO – he always says whatever it is,  it isn’t prosecutable under RICO.  This is different!

     

    https://youtu.be/aiVkyD1yzJ

     

    (maybe a front pager should embed it or make it a rotating tag?)

  143. 143.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Manyakitty: I’ll grant them both, but not that the two traits are somehow intrinsically linked. I’ve met dirty people of all sorts.

  145. 145.

    Urza

    @jonas: They just passed such a law in Georgia, supposedly to fire DAs who refuse to prosecute but it could obviously be used for this.

  146. 146.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Urza: A hammer is still hammer. No matter your intended purpose for buying it, you can use it for other purposes.

  147. 147.

    Betty Cracker

    @rikyrah: The original story appeared in The Tampa Bay Times. The business owner, Richard Gonzmart, is no ordinary restauranteur — he’s the 4th generation owner of the iconic Columbia Restaurant in Ybor City (Tampa) and in many ways is the caretaker of Tampa’s culinary heritage.

    Example: when a quirky decades-old Tampa burger joint was closing due to redevelopment downtown, Gonzmart bought the trademark, recipes, signage, etc., and kept a city treasure that would have otherwise been lost going strong in a new location.

    A lot of business owners are Republicans, so in a way it’s not surprising that Gonzmart was/is a DeSantis supporter. But as with so damn many of them, their personal ox has to get gored before they can see the harm being done to their neighbors. It’s disappointing to say the least.

  148. 148.

    Mai Naem mobileI

    @rikyrah: i bet Brian Kemp himself is on a high knowing he can’t pardon these people. He’s not on good terms with TFG and he can credibly say ‘it’s out of my hands.’

  149. 149.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Betty Cracker: A lot of business owners are Republicans

    I, too, am willing to abuse labor for money and would like to do so without restriction.

  150. 150.

    Geminid

    @Anyway: If you read Jacobs’ entire thread you’ll see she speaks to the points you made, including Republicans’ structural advantages.

    But I think the point she made in the lead Tweet is correct: the Republican Party is in a weak position. They have a lot of internal stress and are on the wrong side of majority voter opinion on many really important issues. They haven’t been in this bad a shape in a long time.

  152. 152.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: the Republican Party is in a weak position. They have a lot of internal stress

    The Republicans are eating themselves alive. Let them feast.

    Landslide ’24, baby!

  153. 153.

    Ken

    @Rusty: many people legitimately can’t serve for that long on a jury

    “Yes, I’m retired, but my lunch group’s got a weekly interview with the New York Times.”

  154. 154.

    Jinchi

    @dmsilev: I wonder whether his PAC has the grifting capability to fund lawyers for all of his codefendants

    Well they don’t have to be good lawyers.

    Just good enough to get their clients to take the fall for him.

  158. 158.

    Jeffro

    @Geminid: the Republican Party is in a weak position. They have a lot of internal stress and are on the wrong side of majority voter opinion on many really important issues. They haven’t been in this bad a shape in a long time.

    It’s exciting to think about!  Really, really exciting.  =)

    I’m not sure that Democrats will be very good at keeping the various GOP factions at each other throats…but it’s important to try!

  160. 160.

    Betty Cracker

    @Geminid: I agree. A lot still has to go our way due to structural disadvantages, but the Repubs are adrift. Fanatics whom they can’t afford to cross are preventing needed course corrections on multiple issues. Their twice-impeached, two-time popular vote loser, serially indicted leader is sucking up all the money and attention while smothering anyone whom he perceives as a threat. In short, they’re fucked 10 ways to Sunday!

  162. 162.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Mai Naem mobileI:

    I think Donny is going to go broke in this case. It sounds very very complicated, very very long and lots of lawyers’ billing hours.

    Seems like it. I’ve seen quips that say no way this goes to trial before the election but I have no expertise to evaluate that opinion.

  166. 166.

    Elizabelle

    @jonas:  I am thinking Nuremberg trial seating for the defendants too.  Lucky that Georgia allows cameras in the courtroom; huge pile o’ defendants in this case. Not many seats for trial observers.

  167. 167.

    Anonymous At Work

    @Betty Cracker: When emailing this story around, I had to explain “Leopards Eating Faces party” to some people.  Clear case of “major lifelong donor to Leopards Eating Faces party unaware that he was backing leopards eating faces, including his and his employees’.”

  168. 168.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @NotMax: That was very funny and I was glad to see there were more of them.

    But did you know Ron Paul proposed bringing back letters of Marque and reprisal?

  169. 169.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Geminid:

    the Republican Party is in a weak position. They have a lot of internal stress and are on the wrong side of majority voter opinion on many really important issues. They haven’t been in this bad a shape in a long time.

    Professional Left podcast takes trips down memory lane…this episode recalling the Republican 2013 Autopsy report was entertaining.

    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-professional-left-podcast-with-driftglass-and-blue-gal/id352076108?i=1000623118899

  170. 170.

    sab

    @Betty Cracker:  This could get interesting.

    Ohio Sec of State Frank LaRose went along with the illegal gerrymandered redistricting while privately  telling people he thought it was nuts. Then he publicly said Issue 1 wasn’t about abortion while announcing at party functions that it was 100% about abortion. And he still wants to run for Senate against Sherrod Brown on the basis of his ( LaRose’s)  “honesty.” Nobody is ever going to be perceived as more honest than Sherrod Brown. He has a 50 year track record.

  171. 171.

    Suzanne

    @Geminid:

    But I think the point she made in the lead Tweet is correct: the Republican Party is in a weak position. They have a lot of internal stress and are on the wrong side of majority voter opinion on many really important issues. They haven’t been in this bad a shape in a long time.

    I agree with this, but I also think that their over-representation in rural areas and small states allows them to delude themselves otherwise.

    I am truly impressed by their True Believer bed-shitting. Pragmatism hasn’t won out for them yet.

  174. 174.

    wjca

    @LAO:

    A conviction under Georgia’s RICO statute will result in a 5- to 20-year sentence, a fine, or both. A judge may fine a defendant up to three times the amount of any money obtained by the defendant during the scheme.

    Ummm, would “any money” include all the donations Trump solicited for Stop the Steal?  Just wondering

  176. 176.

    Suzanne

    @Betty Cracker:

    Their twice-impeached, two-time popular vote loser, serially indicted leader is sucking up all the money and attention while smothering anyone whom he perceives as a threat. In short, they’re fucked 10 ways to Sunday! 

    If only they hadn’t found arguably the worst person in America and made him the president, just to piss off people who didn’t want to hang out with them in high school.

  179. 179.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @rikyrah: Jared got $2 Billion from the Saudis

    If anyone could rack up 2 billion in lawyers costs, it’s Trump.

    Make Attorney Fees Great Again!

  180. 180.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @rikyrah: Jared got $2 Billion from the Saudis

    True, but it wasn’t a donation. In theory he’s running a venture capital investment fund. How forgiving the Saudis would be if he just stole the money is a question in my mind. They can be quite ruthless as he is well aware.

  183. 183.

    smith

    @Sure Lurkalot: I fervently hope Jack Smith’s J6 case goes first, and quickly,and if it turns out as expected, a bunch of already-convicted felons will face Fani in GA. Some may at that point be motivated to make a deal. Before that, a number of the lesser players among the 19 almost certainly will plead out. If that happens, the GA case will be substantially streamlined.

    It would be wonderful if then the trial could at least begin before the election. It’s the only one likely to be televised, it has an epic story to tell, the main points of which people will already be familiar with, (if Smith goes first), but this one will probably fill in a lot of the gory details. It will be the ultimate must-see soap opera.

  186. 186.

    lee

    @UncleEbeneezer: ​
    Glad to hear that. I’ve dealt with various levels of senior living in the Dallas area from independent senior living to hospice.

    There are some very good places in the Dallas area. You just have to hunt for them.

  187. 187.

    Ken

    @Mr. Bemused Senior: How forgiving the Saudis would be if [Jared] just stole the money is a question in my mind. They can be quite ruthless as he is well aware.

    I’m sure that Trump is willing for Jared to take that risk.

    Besides, can you imagine how awkward Thanksgiving will be if he doesn’t help out his father-in-law? Quite aside from the chance they’ll have to have it in the prison dining hall.

  188. 188.

    rikyrah

    The Temptress of Waikiki (@Ms_PaulaEssi) posted at 7:58 PM on Mon, Aug 14, 2023:
    What I love about the Trump indictment is how BLACK it is. I know that is the worst nightmare of Trump and his sycophants.
    From the lashes and 28-piece pixie cut, to the sleek bob, to the Rick Ross beard–
    Thank you Fulton County, Georgia and Fani Willis, no matter what happens. https://t.co/id2V5kkKYu
    (https://twitter.com/Ms_PaulaEssi/status/1691253031587708928?t=fqbA0RIEfHvcSezEwOXn1A&s=03)

  190. 190.

    prostratedragon

    JPL@65: That orbit must be a time warp. One lawyer hollering about a 3-1/2-year investigation of something from 2-1/2 years ago, another volunteer whining that a December trial this year wouldn’t be over by inauguration day …

  191. 191.

    lee

    @Baud:

    Disney is suing Meatball Ron for government retaliation after Ron bragged about the state taking over Disney’s special district being retaliation for opposing the ‘Don’t Say Gay’ Law.

  193. 193.

    rikyrah

    NO LIE TOLD

     

    Trevor Bought A Bag of RICOLAAA For Tuesday’s News (@ObamaClintonDem) posted at 10:26 AM on Tue, Aug 15, 2023:
    Pro Tip

    If you have to not only ask “Which indictment?” but instead “Which AUGUST indictment?” when talking about the frontrunner in the polls, then you should probably rethink branding youselves to something other than the “party of law and order” https://t.co/YDvwAPwnv6
    (https://twitter.com/ObamaClintonDem/status/1691471323308945408?t=Z670QiIUz3tXkOn4U0JrGw&s=03)

  195. 195.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Baud: Betcha Melania falls in love with an MS-13 member with an artistic soul and normally proportioned but athletic calves, just to spite Donny.

    Bonus points if they share any sort of space in the prison.

  199. 199.

    NotMax

    OT.

    In the week since multiple wildfires struck across the island, the Maui Humane Society has received 367 reports of lost pets, with more coming in daily.

    Dr. Lisa M. Labrecque, DVM, who just began as CEO of the animal shelter on July 19, said in a news conference Monday that there is an estimated 3,000 lost animals due to the fires.

    The shelter on Pi’ilani Highway in Puʻunēnē has received 52 live animals from Lahaina, including 12 that are hospitalized in the facility’s clinic with injuries.

    So far, eight of the animals have been reunited with their owners and they are working to try to reunite many more.”. Source

  200. 200.

    lee

    @Baud: ​
    My guess is he actually listened to his lawyers and they told him he was about to get his ass handed to him by the god-tier lawyers of Disney. While he certainly wants Disney’s lawsuit to go away, his cronies are still screwing around with Disney. So it is highly unlikely Disney drops their lawsuit.

  202. 202.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Baud: You missed your calling as a romance novelist/political satirist. It’s a niche genre.

  204. 204.

    rikyrah

    @lee:

    @Baud: ​
    My guess is he actually listened to his lawyers and they told him he was about to get his ass handed to him by the god-tier lawyers of Disney. While he certainly wants Disney’s lawsuit to go away, his cronies are still screwing around with Disney. So it is highly unlikely Disney drops their lawsuit.

    Disney needs to go through with the lawsuit, so that this shyt doesn’t ever come up again for them.

  205. 205.

    Steeplejack

    Might hate-watch Andrea Mitchell at noon to see her fumble her way through the indictment coverage. Also, the MSNBC pundits will have had the morning to firm up their opinions.

  206. 206.

    NotMax

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    FYI.

    “I would advise Ron DeSantis to thank voters for their consideration and remove himself from the race,” said Alex Castellanos, a longtime Republican consultant (Bob Dole, George W. Bush) and CNN commentator. He elaborated: “There is no good way for DeSantis to attack Trump about Jan. 6 or anything else. There is no point in chaining a goat to a stake in front of a T. Rex, then asking the goat to assault the T. Rex. It has not worked out well for other goats, many stronger and smarter than this one.” Here, Castellanos’ response went into more detail about Trump’s electoral history. “So, no,” he concluded, “I would not advise the candidate who lost to the Mouseketeers to attack the T. Rex.” (Disney’s lawsuit against the state of Florida over DeSantis’ effort to revoke Disney World’s special tax status is ongoing.)

    Joe Trippi, a longtime Democratic consultant (Howard Dean, Jerry Brown) who has also appeared on CNN, was more direct: “I would tell DeSantis the hard truth. In my 40 years in presidential politics, I have never seen a worse campaign and candidate. He should withdraw from the race.” Source

  209. 209.

    p.a.

    @rikyrah:

    nice rotating tag.

    I’ve moved on from this whole linear time/aging thing.

    I’ve moved on from this eating half a cow puts on weight thing.

    I’ve moved on from this I owe you money for services rendered thing.

  213. 213.

    Baud

    @NotMax:

    There is no point in chaining a goat to a stake in front of a T. Rex, then asking the goat to assault the T. Rex.

     
    In this case, the goat chained himself.

  215. 215.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Geminid: On the big one– Trump vs. Biden– they’re ahead of where they were 4 years ago in the polls, and if the current position holds, Trump probably wins.

    I think that’s why all this grandstanding by Trump isn’t actually insane. His legal case is hopeless already– he can’t sink it any more than he already has. But he still can win politically, and then leverage raw power to save himself, at least from the federal crimes.

  216. 216.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @rikyrah:

    Doocy: Does Trump know that this is a perilous threat?

    Habba: We do not agree that it is a perilous threat because we actually have inside information.

    Doocy: What is the inside information?

    Habba: You used to love Trump,..

    Abuse; when “love” means tolerating any wrongdoing, no matter how severe.

  217. 217.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @rikyrah: Thanks.  It’s extra-hard because Dad is just above the Medicaid eligibility line.  Oh and there’s a lifetime’s worth of animosity between my wife and him, because he’s a BiPolar Narcissist.  So the feelings are very complicated.

  218. 218.

    Geminid

    @sdhays: A lot of people knowingly hire undocumented workers, especially contractors like the one I used to work for. I thought it was a beneficial relationship for all concerned including the customers. Those were some damned good stone masons and stucco mechanics, especially the Bolivians.

  219. 219.

    Jeffro

    @NotMax: Castellanos knows that DeSantis is a stone-cold loser for the general election and wants him out of the way.

    with trumpov going down in flames, DeSantis will (temporarily, at least) be the ‘heir apparent’ to the nomination, and then the REAL fun begins on the GOP side!

  220. 220.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: However, to hire undocumented workers then turn around and vote for people promising to make life hell for the undocumented…

  221. 221.

    Ken

    @rikyrah: DeSantis says he has “basically moved on” from his feud with Disney

    I am reminded of an early Simpsons, where Homer is telling Bart “Now we can argue all day about who forgot to pick up who from school, but it’s better to put these things behind us.”

     

    @rikyrah: Disney needs to go through with the lawsuit, so that this shyt doesn’t ever come up again for them.

    “We are a corporation. We are potentially immortal. Spending a few tens of millions crushing a mayfly of a politician makes perfect business sense, when it’s amortized over eternity.”

  222. 222.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Ken: Spending a few tens of millions crushing a mayfly of a politician makes perfect business sense, when it’s amortized over eternity.

    I love learning new words. Thank you for this gift.

  223. 223.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @rikyrah: Remember back when people confidently predicted that nobody would dare try and hold Trump accountable?

    Judge Chutkan and Fani Willis (and Garland/Smith) are a great reminder of the importance of showing up and voting Dem for EVERY election, even if all we think we’re getting are judicial appointments as a result.  Judges and DA’s etc. are such a big part of the game.  I will never forgive the assholes who say they “aren’t enough” reason to support Dems.

  227. 227.

    smith

    @Baud: Not to mention a very different Supreme Court.  I often feel real despair to think of how different the country would be now if the popular vote winners in 2000 and 2016 had been president.

  228. 228.

    trollhattan

    @Ken: With rich former funders backing slowly away from Meatball, that leaves him in the arena, weaponless, against vastly rich people with long memories and lessons to impart to any future Meatball-wannabes.

    Sucks to be Ron. How long before Casey files? She did not choose well and has time to correct her error and go be famous.

  230. 230.

    sdhays

    @Mr. Bemused Senior: He’s making millions off of management fees, is my expectation. He can also use the fund to make his own investments work, even if the fund takes a loss. The fund will lose money because Jared is incompetent, but it’s not all going to disappear.

    Either way, there’s no way the money should “run out”.

  232. 232.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @trollhattan: Im not fully counting Ronny out yet, if only because Republicans in my lifetime have only gone from bad to worse.

    The only arguably worse available is Ronny.

  235. 235.

    trollhattan

    Sentence that makes me sad.

    Prolonged period of below average temperatures in CA now in rear view mirror
    WeatherWest

    Glance at the forecast proves the contention beyond a shadow of a doubt.

  238. 238.

    prostratedragon

    rikyrah@188:
    That march to the courtroom was a very proud moment for some of the truest citizens this country has.

    Elsewhere:
    “What is the inside information?” The kind you can get only where their heads are.

  239. 239.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I understand that and also the more general fact that Republican voters are morally deficient in one way or another. This particular one deserves blame for not pressing the issue of comprehensive immigration reform with his party’s elected officials.

    If he wants reform now he’ll have to join other like-minded small business owners and support the Democratic side. Republicans have been afraid to touch the issue since George W. Bush tried during his second term. The Nativist backlash over that was a precursor to the anti-establishment movement that dogs the party to this day.

    Democrats are also somewhat afraid of this issue, and prefer to center others like abortion rights, gun safety, education etc. Climate change and the clean energy transition are becoming a good issues too. But if Democrats can win big enough next year, comprehensive immigration reform may be back on the table. It really needs to happen, and the nation will be a lot better off when it does.

  240. 240.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @NotMax: Cruz, somehow, has work to do to catch up to Ron and Don in terms of sheer awfulness. Fortunately, he chose an office where his opportunities for evil are circumscribed by the requirement for collaboration.

  241. 241.

    rikyrah

    My President..always working.

     

    Over 800,000 student-loan borrowers are set to start seeing their debt wiped out following income-driven repayment reforms

    Story by [email protected] (Ayelet Sheffey) •23h

    • Over 800,000 student-loan borrowers are set to start seeing their debt wiped out.
    • It’s part of a one-time account adjustment for borrowers on income-driven repayment plans.
    • The future of the relief is uncertain after conservative groups filed a lawsuit to block it.

    Student-loan forgiveness is set to begin for thousands of borrowers.
    On Monday, student-loan companies are set to begin discharging the debt of 804,000 borrowers who have qualified for $39 billion in debt relief — part of the first batch of borrowers affected by the Education Department’s one-time account adjustment for income-driven repayment plans.
    The department announced on July 14 that borrowers who had made the required 20 or 25 years of qualifying payments on income-driven repayment plans would be notified of their debt cancellation and that 30 days later, their servicers would begin discharging their loans.
    “At the start of this Administration, millions of borrowers had earned loan forgiveness but never received it. That’s unacceptable,” Under Secretary of Education James Kvaal said in a statement at the time. “Today we are holding up the bargain we offered borrowers who have completed decades of repayment.”

    Over 800,000 student-loan borrowers are set to start seeing their debt wiped out following income-driven repayment reforms (msn.com)

  242. 242.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: We just need to tell it true. If you want to know who’s in the country and not have wages undercut by unscrupulous employers abusing their employees’ immigration status; the answer is a more efficient, more flexible immigration system.

  245. 245.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: We are also losing by excluding a large cohort of workers from the payroll tax. The day after they get green cards, the base of the Social Security system will be that much stronger.

    Politicians and business owners know this but for various reasons have stayed passive on this issue. That’s one more reason I hope to see the Republican party neutralized for the rest of this decade. I think that if this happens we’ll find enough Republican Senators willing to cross the aisle on this question.

  247. 247.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: Politicians and business owners know this but for various reasons have stayed passive on this issue.

    This, too, is likely about the power to abuse workers with minimal oversight.

  248. 248.

    Fair Economist

    @sdhays:

    @rikyrah: Wait…so this bag of shit knowingly hired undocumented workers for 19 years?

    Yep, and while enthusiastically supporting a party and candidates *promising* to force them to leave. And he got a half million dollar fine plus some serious employee issues for it.

    The Leopards Eating Faces party strikes again.

  249. 249.

    Gravenstone

    @Roger Moore: Eight were previously reported to have taken the immunity deals offered by the DAs Office. That is, after the replacement for their Trumpy previous lawyer actually made them aware of said extensions of immunity.

  250. 250.

    prostratedragon

    Politico this morning, on expected venue gambit:

    But Georgia could be different: Most of the charges Trump is facing — sweeping allegations of using his office to corrupt the 2020 election — involve his presidential authorities and his efforts to manipulate the federal processes he was charged with overseeing. That makes removal a more viable option in Georgia than New York.

    Does this fail before even getting to the fact that criminal activity is not a duty of office, because the actual counts list only the outcomes in violation of Georgia law, though some of the predicates in the RICO count involve (misappropriated) federal acts? If so, then the hearing should take long enough to write, He’s not charged with that.”

  251. 251.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Plenty of business owners employ undocumented workers and don’t abuse or exploit them. The employers I’ve seen in the construction and landscaping industrustries would be glad if their undocumented workers could get green cards. I live in a prospering area though, where good help is at a premium and customers can pay for them.

  253. 253.

    Burnspbesq

    @dmsilev:

    I wonder whether his PAC has the grifting capability to fund lawyers for all of his codefendants

    This question has come up before. One co-defendant paying for other co-defendants’ counsel raises very serious conflict-of-interest issues, that could potentially lead to disqualification and bar discipline for the lawyers involved.

    MAGA = Make Attorneys Get Attorneys.

  254. 254.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: I’m just talking about Republicans and owners otherwise inspired to inaction

    Also, too, hiring people not legally authorized to work in this country is, itself, arguably an abuse.

  255. 255.

    MCA1

    @Matt McIrvin: Your conclusion makes sense, but I don’t understand the assumption on which you’re basing it.  Biden’s not even campaigning yet, because it’s still 15 months out from the election.  He will be running on economic recovery, pulling together the international community and shoring up NATO for Ukraine, and Dobbs, all of which are huge winners with independents.  If his opponent is Trump, he and his surrogates will spend all day talking about Trump’s criminality.  That and abortion rights will be more than enough to turn out traditional D voters.

    His standing has generally improved, slowly, from late ’21-’22, people are starting to see the improvements in the economy and will eventually start “feeling” them (assuming fundamentals continue on the path they’re on), his polling is no worse than Obama’s at this point in 2011 when people were calling for Clinton to primary him and Bernie almost did.  He and the Dems vastly outperformed expectation in last year’s midterms; OH and KS have shown what a motivating force reproductive rights is for the D’s; outside of Youngkin, the party’s done extremely well in every election that matters since the 2020 general.  How do we go from all of this to “Trump will probably win?”  He lost last time by 8 million votes, and he would have to flip Georgia (where he’s going to be arrested next week), Arizona (where the GOP is a mess) and Wisconsin (which now has a D governor and supreme court) to win the White House.  Who has he picked up as voters since January, 2021?

  256. 256.

    Matt McIrvin

    @MCA1: I don’t know who Trump has picked up, but his head to head polling against Biden is better than it was in 2020, and Trump outperformed his polling by a few points in 2020. If he outperforms his current numbers by the same amount, he wins.

  257. 257.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @MCA1: Im inclined to think you’re right. Then, again, I had a hard time seeing how Bush could pick up voters in 04.

    Nevertheless, I still have my chips on the table for “best result for Democrats in my lifetime.”

  258. 258.

    rikyrah

    @trollhattan:

    Sucks to be Ron. How long before Casey files? She did not choose well and has time to correct her error and go be famous.

     

    LOL

    Within 18 months of him getting out of the race.

  259. 259.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Matt McIrvin: In January 2010, Governor Deval Patrick of MA had approval in the teens. He won reelection handily. People aren’t paying attention yet.

  260. 260.

    MCA1

    @Matt McIrvin: 2020 was the actual election year.  I guess if we’re in this same place in 12 months and it shows Trump with leads in states he needs to retake, I’ll be much more concerned.  But national head-to-heads 15 months before an election, when the campaign hasn’t even started yet, are pretty meaningless to me.

  262. 262.

    Roger Moore

    @lee: ​
     

    Disney is suing Meatball Ron for government retaliation after Ron bragged about the state taking over Disney’s special district being retaliation for opposing the ‘Don’t Say Gay’ Law.

    It’s such typical douchebag abuser shit. Sorry, Ron, abusers do not get to decide when it’s time for their victims to get over it. That’s especially true when the victims are still directly suffering from the abuse. Maybe Disney will consider giving up on their lawsuit when Florida reverses the dissolution of the Reedy Creek Improvement District and returns control of everything to them, but they’re not going to decide it’s time to let bygones be bygones when your hand-picked cronies still have control.

  263. 263.

    Anyway

    @Geminid:

    I’m no doomer – my feeling is that reports of Rthugs death are greatly exaggerated … plus R candidates and PACS never seem to run out of reactionary billionaires willing to fund them. No victory lap for me yet :)

  265. 265.

    Burnspbesq

    @WaterGirl:

    I think she smacks Trump down hard on the timing of the trial.

    Former circuit judge Luttig, Bush AG Gonzalez, and others filed a pretty impressive amicus brief with Judge Chutkan in support of the Special Counsel’s proposed trial date.

  266. 266.

    Burnspbesq

    @smith:

    but I’ve been thinking that there is a voting rights case to be made against a duly elected official being removed from office by politicians without any due process.

    IMO, the fine folks in Nashville and Memphis showed the way to handle crap like this. They re-elected the expelled state legislators by overwhelming margins. No reason why the folks in Orange and Osceola Counties can’t do the same.

  267. 267.

    Roger Moore

    @prostratedragon: ​

    his efforts to manipulate the federal processes he was charged with overseeing.

    That’s some Grade A bullshit. There is no national election overseen by the federal government; there are 50 state elections overseen by the state governments. Unless Trump can somehow implicate a federal nexus for interfering, like a violation of the VRA, the feds have no right to get involved.

  268. 268.

    Kirk

    So at what point do the national and various state GOP organizations get included in the whole RICO process?

     

    ( I know, different rules etc. But still…)

  269. 269.

    Roger Moore

    @Burnspbesq:

    I think some of the other lawyers around here have also said having one defendant pay for the other defendants’ legal fees is a huge mistake in a RICO case.  It basically makes the prosecution’s case that these people constitute an organization for them.

  271. 271.

    Roger Moore

    @Burnspbesq: ​
     

    No reason why the folks in Orange and Osceola Counties can’t do the same.

    Except they are not in the same situation. In Tennessee, the seats became empty as soon as the legislators were booted from office, and there was a prompt new election to find replacements. With DAs in Florida, the governor can depose them and appoint replacements with no reference to the voters in the area.

  273. 273.

    Doc Sardonic

    @Roger Moore: That is correct. The appointed DeSantis lackey holds the seat until the next election is concluded. The appointed lackey can run and if elected, continue in the position, if they do not win the victor assumes the seat until they are deposed in a duly conducted election or fired by the Governor.

    Hopefully if we ever get a Democratic governor again and the Republicans don’t take that power away before hand, it will be liberally used on Republicans.

  274. 274.

    prostratedragon

    Roger Moore@267: Yet another way in which Cheney completely disregards what the actual charges are. If from late last night to 9:45 this morning he didn’t have enough time actually to read the thing, surely he could have bypassed this dreck.

  278. 278.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    Confronted in his car, Lee told officers he was “working with some folks to help Ruby out” and “get some truth.” When Freeman refused to talk to him, Lee allegedly sought the help of Harrison Floyd, a former Illinois congressional candidate and former director of Black Voices for Trump, and Trevian Kutti, a former publicist for singer R. Kelly and associate of the rapper Kanye West, now known as Ye, to arrange a meeting with Freeman, according to court filings.

    All I know is what I read in the papers.

  279. 279.

    unrelatedwaffle

    I could not for the life of me fathom what these clowns were getting up to with the vote machine tampering in Coffee County and I have spent all morning reading an infosec expert’s 75 page report. It is dynamite.

  280. 280.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @unrelatedwaffle: I haven’t read that report (yet) but my guess is they wanted to plant evidence (based on reporting so far). I suppose I’m shocked but not surprised.

    P.S. thanks for the link.

  282. 282.

    Citizen Alan

    @Baud: Was ’68 a close election? Before my time, of course, though I knew that 72 was a historic victory for NIxon. But if a Dem had beaten him in 68 and appointed 4 Justices? One of them a liberal chief? Hell, yes, we’d all be better off!

  283. 283.

    Ishiyama

    This is too funny not to share:

    Wake up and smell the racket tea. Nobody cons their way past me. Nobody. I mean, just say it out loud. “Racketeering.” Sounds pretty bad, right? That’s mostly all we need. A general sense of sinister malice gets you 70 percent of the way to a conviction. That’s just how Racketeering Charges rolls.

    Listen. We live in a nation of laws. But sometimes, those laws sound more like spells. And spells are more powerful than any nitty-gritty rules. That’s just how it works.

  285. 285.

    jonas

    @unrelatedwaffle: Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Lisa goes to the town hall to unravel the mystery of how Sideshow Bob got elected mayor and when she asks the clerk for the election records, he hands her a stack of ballot readouts containing the names of each voter and who they voted for. “I thought this was a secret ballot.” she says. “Eh,” the clerk shrugs.

    That’s pretty much what this affidavit says happened in Coffee County.

  287. 287.

    Geminid

    @Citizen Alan: Humphrey won a bitter and tumultuous convention, and then started out broke. Humphrey never matched Nixon’s money but he finished really strong. Theodore White wrote in The Making of a President:1968 that he thought Humphrey would have won if the election had been 3 days later.

  288. 288.

    unrelatedwaffle

    @Mr. Bemused Senior: After reading the report (particularly the Implications section towards the end), my take is that they were trying their damndest to a) find some plausible reason votes could be miscounted (they fucked around with the scanner brightness/contrast settings and such to see if it changed the outcome of a vote read) to shore up their “voting machines are fraudulent!!!1” claims, b) write misleading reports “analyzing” the voting machine software to sow distrust in the election (which they did, and which worked, see the section about the ASOG report).

    they know their base, and they know that official looking/sounding reports with cherry picked data and numbers pulled from one’s ass and a bunch of conspiracy language go a looooooong way.

  290. 290.

    unrelatedwaffle

    @jonas: honestly it would be better if that were the case. you can fix apathy more easily than malice.

    it seems like one of the election board members (eric chaney) was actively helping them, along with misty hampton:

    Legitimate authorization was not given for the irregular access to Coffee County’s Election Office in January 2021. The evidence indicates an illusion of authorization was created (1) by Eric Chaney leveraging his membership on the Board of Elections, (2) by Misty Hampton’s willingness to collaborate, (3) by several attorneys including Powell, Bundren, and Lambert lending their integrity as officers of the court, and (4) by involving many other willing and credulous participants.

  292. 292.

    Ruckus

    @p.a.:

    Don’t think his ego would allow that.

    As his ego is a big as a dumpster emptying truck, smells as bad and makes about the same level and far less useful noises, and his ego is bigger by about 5 million percent than is justified, no, I don’t think it would either.

  293. 293.

    Ruckus

    @rikyrah:

    How much of the national press is owned or controlled by republicans or conservative leaning folks?

    How much is owned by fully democratic folks?

    We often forget that the national press is a BUSINESS. It makes money by selling paper or now, access to it’s created information. It loses money by pissing off the owner(s) or chasing away business.

    trump, aka SFB, is in most circles, a loser. His position is endorsed mostly by people that see money and hate as the indicators of a great person. In this country where we have the choice to be better, or worse, a lot of humans will take the worst path, one that has made someone far wealthier than they will ever be, no matter how he got there, or how actually successful he is. And that is SFB in a nutshell.

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