Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

You cannot shame the shameless.

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

Republicans can’t even be trusted with their own money.

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

Bad people in a position to do bad things will do bad things because they are bad people. End of story.

The willow is too close to the house.

Republicans: “Abortion is murder but you can take a bus to get one.” Easy peasy.

Republicans don’t lie to be believed, they lie to be repeated.

Conservatism: there are people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

The current Supreme Court is a rogue court. Very dangerous.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

It’s a good piece. click on over. but then come back!!

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Democrats are back in array!

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

There is one struggling party in US right now, and it’s not the Democrats.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Reading Reccomendations on India Bharat, Center of Its Own Universe

Reading Reccomendations on India Bharat, Center of Its Own Universe

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Chovanec is a financial advisor who’s spent a lot of time living & traveling in Asia. He’s also smart and well-read, which is why I’m sharing his recommendations for books about the world’s most populous nation…

2) This is true of most countries, to some extent. But it strikes people outside of India as particularly baffling because they see most things that happen in India, past and present, as of only tangential relevance to them, at best. It is FAR from the center of their universe.

3) But once you understand that this is how Indians in India (as opposed to Indians who have emigrated) see things, a lot of other things start to make sense.

4) I remember sitting over dinner listening to people there debate which side public opinion in various countries would passionately take in a war between India and Pakistan. I delicately tried (but failed) to tell them that most people wouldn’t know – or care – which was which.

5) But you might say, they don’t care about we care about, either. And I would say right, but that doesn’t surprise me. It surprised them very much.

I’d be interested in any other recommendations, or thoughts.

Reader Interactions

56Comments

  4. 4.

    Alison Rose

    I’ve read Behind the Beautiful Forevers and India Becoming, and both were really informative and interesting reads. Difficult at times, but very helpful for someone in the West with little knowledge about the area.

  7. 7.

    RobArt

    @RaflW: It didn’t for me either. Seems like something new to learn that a break doesn’t behave right when surrounded only by embeds? I got here same as you probably did via the View Post and Comments link.

  9. 9.

    satby

    I love India and hope to go back once more before I get really too old. It’s an amazing country, and it saddens me that the party of extremists that murdered Gandhi is now in charge. I’m looking forward to reading some of these books.

    And OT, but bluegal needs help with some medical issues, her gofundme is here.

  11. 11.

    MattF

    I’d be somewhat wary about Naipaul. Yes, by all means, read what he has to say, but also find out why he has a, um, complicated reputation.

  14. 14.

    buddhacat

    I don’t comment on here much, but this is an interesting topic, me being an expat. Yes there is a level of self-centered chauvinism pervasive amongst us. Everything was discovered/ invented in India, quite literally. It says so in the Vedas. There is also an odd dichotomy of craving “western” approbation of our claims, too.

    Being a 3-5000 year old society of social, cultural, religious, regional, and militarist hodgepodge periods of growth, tolerance, freedom of expression, conquest, oppression, assimilation, exclusion, science, and pseudo-sciences of every stripe – it’s exhausting and exhilarating. Once I retire, I will be returning there to live for sure.

  16. 16.

    Dan B

    This post explains what a young woman said to us in Mumbai, “I couldn’t live anywhere else.”  As she’s saying this I’m looking at the dense city of twenty million or so and the horrifying difference in living standards.

  18. 18.

    ColoradoGuy

    I was there for a month in 1991, just before they opened their economy. I was astonished how cut off from the vibrant Asian economies they were, with almost no foreign products at all. No Coke, Pepsi, Sony, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes to be seen … it almost felt like Cuba in how isolated it was.

    No freeways then, either, just sketchy and extremely crowded two-lane roads. Very dim night-time lighting from 40-watt fluorescent tubes on the street corners, even in New Delhi. Dramatic contrast with the brilliant multicolored lights of Bangkok and Hong Kong, which can be seen from space. The only TV was talking-heads shows on the national network, in pasty-looking 625-line  PAL color.

    Bangkok was only a short flight away and a completely different world. Ultra high energy economy connected to the world, while New Delhi felt like it was 60 years in the past, and not modern at all.

  21. 21.

    oldster

    I talked recently with a young Indian woman who lives in the states. Secular, well-educated, not a fan of Modi’s govt. I asked her how she felt about the move to change the name from “India” to “Bharat”. She said that did not trouble her at all — that’s just the standard Hindi name for their country.

    What *is* more problematic, in her view, is any move to refer to “Akhand Bharat”. That means something like “Undivided India,” and it refers to the idea that all of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet, and other countries all “really” belong to India. This is an idea beloved of some political groups in India, and obviously worrisome to many people in Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. Esp. when a move to undo the Partition is combined with the idea that Reunited India would be ruled by a Hindu majority.

    I was reminded a bit of the difference between “Deutschland,” the name of a country, and “Grossdeutschland”, the name of an ideal of reunifying Germany, Austria, and all other German-speaking areas into one realm (or as we might say, “Reich”).

    I don’t know how representative this woman’s views are, so I’ll be interested to hear from people on this thread who know more about India/Bharat.

  22. 22.

    satby

    @Dan B: it is an assault on the senses when you land, but I found it exhilarating. And though Chicago isn’t nearly as large and populous, it is a large city, so less of a shock than it might be to someone from quieter areas. I really do want to go back, that’s the country of the future.

  23. 23.

    ColoradoGuy

    One thing I do remember was the non-Hindi-speaking ethnic groups from other parts of the country did not appreciate Hindi dominance from the North, and would speak English instead.

  24. 24.

    schrodingers_cat

    India has been known as India since Alexander’s time. Bharat is the name of a mythical king from the Mahabharat. There is no reason to stop calling it India just because the RSS says so.

    I call it India in English. Bharat in Hindi/Marathi.

  25. 25.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @YY_Sima Qian: The only difference I would say is that getting bested militarily (Japan) & economically (the Asian Tigers, larger SE Asia) by the once peripheral parts of the Sino-centric order had punctured the self-absorbed chauvinism, & had instilled an intense sense of urgency & pragmatism even among the nationalists to catch up & surpass. That pragmatism is starting to fade among the Chinese ultranationalists, as Chinese power & wealth have risen.

    India has remained the leading economy in South Asia even through its lengthy period of  lackluster economic growth, almost all of its neighbors had succumbed to the Western colonial powers, & for most of the post-colonial period they were even more developmentally challenged than India.

  27. 27.

    schrodingers_cat

    Who is this self anointed India whisperer, Patrick? Why is it that we still need a white person to interpret “exotic” India.

    I don’t consider India to be the center of the Universe neither do I consider the US to be that

  29. 29.

    Dan B

    @satby: I felt culture shock at first but got acclimated in a few days.  A friend went several weeks after I returned and his first comment was, “Oh my God, I can’t believe the culture shock!”  I laughed.

    We went to Mumbai, Delhi, Cochin in Kerala, and Rajasthan.  Many contrasts.

  31. 31.

    kmeyerthelurker

    White Tiger by Aravind Adiga is a hoot to read, and while very much fiction, it does give great insight into how Indians view the world and their own democracy.

    I’ve always felt that India is best thought of in the same way as Europe.  A true subcontinent, with all the variety & deifferentiation that entails.

  33. 33.

    schrodingers_cat

    All these takes by this Peter guy about how all Indians think based on interactions with the top 0.1% are hilarious.

    He is seeing India through a upper caste, upper class lens. He has mistaken that for all of India.

  34. 34.

    grubert

    Not surprising. India and China are both huge and old and have been relatively isolated for millennia.

    Both are worlds unto themselves, essentialy.

  35. 35.

    Kelly

    Ubiquitous Mercator Projection maps give N Americans and Europeans a mistaken impression of how much room the rest of the people in the world have to develop diverse cultures adapted to diverse environment.

  40. 40.

    Queen of Lurkers

    @ColoradoGuy: 30 years later, urban India looks quite different from what it did in 1991. A lot a rural and small town India, however, has not changed that much.

  41. 41.

    Bill Arnold

    @schrodingers_cat:
    When English-language Indian press pieces show up in my google news feed (sometimes dominating an entire auto-determined category), I would like to know which are probably reliable, in the journalism sense. And for those outlets, the political leanings and the political dimensions in which those leanings lie.

  42. 42.

    Tony G

    Both India and China had advanced civilizations when most Europeans were running around in animal skins.  And both nations were humiliated by European powers in the 19th century.  It makes sense for both countries to have an attitude.

  44. 44.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @grubert: Neither India nor China were isolated through their histories. There was a millennia long history of cultural, commercial & migratory (including by way of conquest & being conquered) exchanges w/ their respective surrounding regions, & in fact w/ each other. India w/ the rest of South Asia, w/ SE Asia, Arabia, Central Asia, the Tibetan Plateau & the Indian Ocean Region. China w/ the western Pacific rim, the Mongolian Steppe, Central Asia, the Tibetan Plateau, SE Asia, & as far as the Indian Ocean Region & Arabia. These linkages formed the basis for the Silk Road & the Maritime Silk Road, which Xi and the PRC is trying to reestablish in spirit & form, on terms favorable to the PRC.

    However, India & China had been largely isolated from Europe until the age of European expansion & colonialism, Thus, seeing India & China as insular civilizations, worlds unto themselves, is a Western-centric perspective, playing into Western Orientalist & Exoticist fantasies. Given how the West has dominated global discursive power since the age of colonialism & into the post-colonial period, these Orientalist & Exoticist views have in fact influenced Chinese & Indian (& other colonized & marginalized parts of the world) self-perception.

  45. 45.

    grubert

    @Tony G: and both nations had all kinds of resources and a wealth of wildlife and good water supplies.. what a great place to settle down and multiply!

    in 3000 BC.

  46. 46.

    grubert

    @YY_Sima Qian: I said *relatively* isolated.. not absolutely, of course.

    Neither *needed* much that other nations had.. hence the Opium Wars, in China’s case

    This isn’t necessarily a “western imperialist” attitude, both nations had people who said as much

  47. 47.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @grubert: Relative to what?

    The Qing Empire did plenty of trade w/ the rest of E/SE/C. Asia. It just did not particularly need the goods produced by Britain or its colonial possessions, or rather its demand for such goods were far outstripped by British demand for Chinese tea.

    As for Chinese & Indians believing their respective civilizations are unique worlds into themselves, IMO they are falling prey to their own exceptionalism, chauvinism & Western Orientalist POV (some of that Orientalism/Exoticism stroke their egos in a way).

  49. 49.

    grubert

    @YY_Sima Qian:

    except to add that their “center of the world” attitudes do not require that they be arrogant or chauvinistic.

    With so much wealth, that feeling would be natural.

  50. 50.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @grubert: That’s fair. If you are a low level bureaucrat or tribal chief in the interior of Imperial China or India (or Rome), away from the capital & the main trading ports, the empire can seem like a world unto itself.

  52. 52.

    wu ming

    @grubert: It makes more sense to say that northern Europe—esp. northern Europe—was isolated from and marginal to the major economies of the world until around the 18th century or so, when they became the global equivalent of pirates or vikings, plundering existing rich webs of trade between the world’s productive economies.

    Neither premodern China nor India were autarkic, isolated hermit kingdoms; they were rich centers of a vast web of trade that linked most of Eurasia and the coast of East Africa together for millennia. The markets of Vijayanagara, Canton, and Quanzhou were full of foreign goods, and merchants from India and China spread out along those trade routes, which is why there were and are Chinatowns and little Indias and Arab quarters all over the port cities of Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean. It is that very thriving trade that pulled in Europeans, when they finally made their way around the horn of Africa a couple of centuries ago and immediately started taking ports over by force.

    But for Europeans to take those places over, they tried to justify it by saying those civilizations were isolated, closed off, and backwards. The truth was generally the opposite.

  53. 53.

    YY_Sima Qian

    @grubert: The reason I tend to be triggered by suggestions of Eastern (as in non-Western) civilizations as “isolated” & “inward looking” is that such views are often both upstream & downstream of Orientalism that posits Eastern civilizations as autarkic, despotic, exotic, timeless, inscrutable, & superstitious. Throughout Western history this framing has been successively applied to Persia, India, China, the Ottomans,  Japan, & yes, Russia. The purpose of the Orientalism is to serve as foil to the delusional self-conception of Western colonial/neoliberal enterprises as cosmopolitan, liberal, familiar, progressive, transparent & rational, both contemporarily & in retrospect.

    In the Ukraine threads we have frequently discussed how deeply ingrained the Russo-centric perspective is in the ROW’s conception of the components of & peripheries to the Russian Empire & the USSR. Similarly, IMHO the Western-centric Orientalist views of non-Western civilizations are deeply ingrained (even at an unconscious level) in the world’s conception of them, including self-conception, simply because Western perspectives have so dominated discourse & international scholarship for so long.

    For the same reason, I am instinctively suspicious of reductionist/essentialist analysis, because human polities & societies are complex & constantly evolve, because historically they have been employed to dehumanize perceived threats & justify moral crusades, & also because such analysis are rarely turned inward for self-reflection. The rare attempts to do so inevitably draw cries of ignoring nuances & complexity.

  55. 55.

    wu ming

    Manan Ahmed’s The Loss of Hindustan: The Invention of India is a fascinating look at the modern nationalist idea of India, and the way it displaced an earlier, more pluralist idea of Hindustan. Admad’s a great writer, and ran the now-defunct blog Sepia Mutiny for years.

    Another good one is Wendy Doniger’s The Hindus: An Alternative History, which managed to piss off the Hindu right sufficiently to get itself banned and pulped in India a while back. Doniger foregrounds a lot of stuff —women, sexuality, lower castes, etc—that often gets left out of the grand narrative about the vast and diverse collection of religious practices collectively labeled Hinduism, and paints a much richer picture by doing so.

  56. 56.

    wu ming

    This might also be a good time to remember what the word Mediterranean means in Latin. Believing one’s civilization to be the center of the world is pretty common practice worldwide, like one’s ethnonym meaning something like “the people.”

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