I so admire people who are having the same jumble of thoughts and feelings that many of us are, yet are able to somehow articulate exactly what I am thinking and feeling. Betty Cracker often does that in her posts, and I am in awe.
In this case, David Rothkopf speaks for me on the Israel-Palestine situation.
I’m furious that I am currently vulnerable to being accused of being an anti-Semite because I am not a Zionist. I am a Jew. I am the son of a Holocaust survivor who came a from a family largely exterminated by the Nazis. I love my Jewish heritage. I love that my children and now…
— David Rothkopf (@djrothkopf) October 21, 2023
This is simply the best articulation of my thoughts and feelings on this matter (except for the part about having a Jewish heritage). (Paragraph breaks added by because I simply cannot read a wall of text with no white space.)
I’m furious that I am currently vulnerable to being accused of being an anti-Semite because I am not a Zionist. I am a Jew. I am the son of a Holocaust survivor who came a from a family largely exterminated by the Nazis. I love my Jewish heritage. I love that my children and now that their children are Jewish.
I deeply believe in the right of all people to self-determination and to live in security. But I am also an American and believe in our founding principles. I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe that governments derive their powers from the consent of the governed. I believe that governments therefore have no right to deny any population within their borders full rights and that when they do they lose their legitimacy. I believe in democracy.
I am skeptical of claims to legitimacy that are based on selective interpretations of ancient history. That does not mean I oppose the existence of the State of Israel. I do not. Israel exists and all should acknowledge that existence. If it were truly a democracy and, better yet, were grounded in the core moral values that I celebrate in Judaism, I would actively celebrate its existence daily. Indeed, I hope to do so in the future.
But I will question the policies of its government and that government’s moral authority until it treats all those within the borders it controls equally. While I understand the complexities of political history in the Middle East, I don’t believe those justify systematically undermining the rights and carving away at the lands of others who have a legitimate claim to the region–even as I understand why some of those claims are doubted.
Because whatever history may be, the obligation of governments is to treat fairly those within their borders in the present and to ensure a future for generations to come that both respects and guarantees their individual rights. As I said, to me it would be wonderful if the ideal of a democratic Jewish state or something approaching it existed. But it does not.
And therefore my Jewish values and my concern for the future of the Jewish people compel me to oppose the actions of the Israeli government and the laws of the country that have made apartheid the harsh reality for the Palestinian people. Which, I would note, I do precisely because I think it is the only path to the evolution of a truly democratic, truly secure Israel.
None of this means, however, and I would have thought obviously, that I support Hamas or terrorists or others who threaten the innocent people of Israel or the peace of the region. It just means that I do not feel that Israel has a right to operate on any terms whatsoever purely because it is a state with the worthy goal of providing a home for the Jews.
Indeed, I’ll be honest with you, I feel like promoting the rights of Israelis and Palestinians alike, the ideas of equity and democracy is the most pro-Semitic, the most Jewish choice possible. It is also in my view, the right choice and that is why I will stick to it regardless of the names I may be called by those promoting flawed approaches or absolutist and thereby intolerant interpretations of what acceptable public discourse may consist of.
Open thread.
schrodingers_cat
Virulent antisemitism is flourishing on both sides of the ideological spectrum on Twitter right now. Threads usually start with criticizing Netanyahu and conclude with eliminationist language regarding Jewish people.
RepubAnon
I think Babylon 5’s Captain John Sheridan said it best when the question of fighting evil with evil arose: “Fight them, without becoming them!”
Xavier
The Constitution never speaks of the rights of citizens, it speaks of the rights of persons.
WaterGirl
@Xavier: Which constitution?
Dorothy A. Winsor
@RepubAnon: Funny. I’ve been thinking about Babylon 5 the last few days–something from Delenn about their being attacked and then all going mad together. It feels familiar.
JPL
@RepubAnon: Excellent! It’s hard to achieve though.
WaterGirl
@RepubAnon: @JPL:
I just added that as a rotating tag.
That applies to so many things. The current situation with Israel and Palestine, with Ukraine and the horrific things being done to the Ukrainian people, even Republicans and authoritarians.
Lots of tough roads to navigate. Fight them, but don’t become them.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: What we need is no elimination-ist language or intent with regard to anyone.
dc
This is a beautiful articulation of how I feel, though I’m not Jewish or Palestinian.
WaterGirl
Go Joe!
schrodingers_cat
OT: Artbreak
Butterfly from yesterday, photographed in daylight
This one is from a few months ago
WaterGirl
@WaterGirl: The people who need humanitarian aid are not the people who massacred people and took hostages.
Warblewarble
Let us all try to keep our comments healthy , and try to win for humanity.
kalakal
That is so very well put.
In Wilde’s phrasing “Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious”
kalakal
@schrodingers_cat:
Very nice indeed, thanks for posting them
schrodingers_cat
@kalakal: Thanks, which one do you like better?
pat
@schrodingers_cat:
I like the one that actually looks like a real butterfly. Butterfly in daylight.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@schrodingers_cat: Those are both gorgeous but I particularly like the daylight one.
Michael Bersin
This morning at a parade in Missouri:
We’re not a prop for your apocalyptic right wingnut fever dream
kalakal
@schrodingers_cat: The second one but it’s very close
Bill Arnold
@Warblewarble:
We kept the Israel/Hamas parts of the Ukraine thread last night admirably clean of propaganda narratives.
Omnes Omnibus
This has been a bit of a hobbyhorse for me for a while now. At first in the Ukraine threads and with our anti-Christian zealot but now with the anti-Semites and Islamophobes who keep popping up online. We each need to watch where our sometimes righteous anger leads us. We need to be careful about thinking of anything in terms of absolutes.
At the same time, we need to assume good faith and decency in other people until it is proven that that they don’t deserve it. If someone says something problematic, question it, especially if they have been around for a while and seem like a good person. Their comment may be badly worded, you may have read it wrong, they may be going through some shit, or it may turn put that they meant it and are not who you thought they were. But give them a chance. After that, if they are a bigot, fuck ’em.
Geminid
@WaterGirl: Defense Minister Gallant is the one whose sacking by Netanyahu earlier this year resulted in widespread spontaneous demonstrations on a Sunday night.
Netanyahu never went through with the firing. One reason is that US officials let it be known that they trusted Gallant, unlike other members of Netanyahu’s government.
There was a similar pressure campaign 12 days ago, when the PM was dragging his feet on including Benny Gantz in a “unity government.” This time Chuck Schumer got involved. His well-publized phone call with Gantz was a message from Israel’s leading Congressional advocate that Netanyahu needed to bring Gantz in.
I saw an interesting poll of Israelis last week, asking their preferences if another election was held. The poll indicated that Netanyahu’s 4-party coalition would drop ftom 64 MKs to 46 (out of the 120 member Knesset). Gantz’s National Unity party would rise from 11 MKs to 40. There’s no election scheduled, but those were striking numbers, I thought.
Nukular Biskits
WaterGirl, thanks for providing that tweet.
David Rothkopf also speaks for me on this issue.
Now, if only I can get my rightwingnutcase Republican congressional delegation to put out a statement that isn’t essentially “ISRAEL NEVER DOES ANYTHING WRONG AND ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE SUPPORTS HAMAS!!!1!!!”
CaseyL
@Geminid: That’s encouraging to see; hopefully Gantz’s coalition gains even more in the polls.
Geminid
@Geminid: When Benny Gantz joined the government, his agreement with Netanulyahu was ratified by the Knesset. Per the agreement, Gantz, Netanyahu, and Gallant form a War Cabinet charged with major decisions. Gantz ally Gadi Eisenkot and Netanyahu ally Ron Dermer are serve as “observers.” Like Gantz, Eisenkot is a former IDF Chief of Staff.
Brachiator
I was listening to a BBC political podcast. One of the guests went out of her way to praise President Biden for the empathy in a speech he gave about the situation in Israel and Gaza.
It is ironic that the Republicans fighting over the Speakership are glad that Biden is in charge. They feel comfortable fighting over their nonsense, safe in the knowledge that they don’t have to contribute anything.
schrodingers_cat
OT: Sharing some music I am listening to right now
Sunidhi Chauhan singing for Sushmita Sen in Fiza, music composed by Anu Malik
Sushmita was the first Indian Miss Universe IIRC.
Tony Jay
Extremely well articulated. Rational. Adult. Fair-minded and clear as a bell. Unfortunately, between 2016 and 2019 I saw any number of equally credible arguments for truth, justice and a better way issued over here, and the response of the Media was always the same. Ask the self-appointed arbiters of ‘Good Jewishness’ if the argument was valid, get told no, shrug and tell the person who wrote it they weren’t allowed to talk to them anymore because they were ‘radicals’.
When the most cynical proponents of the most extreme wing of any polity are made judge and jury and prosecutor in matters they claim authority over, all you’re going to get is a lot of kangaroo courts handing out a lot of one-sided rulings and zero grown-up dialogue. I wish Mr Rothkopf well, and I hope things are better in the US than they are in the UK, but chances are he’s on a hiding to nothing.
cain
@Nukular Biskits: Hamas is a gift for them to do their islamphobia hate going.
And it isn’t personal but it’s a great way to rile up hate and keep them voting GOP.
H.E.Wolf
@schrodingers_cat: I always enjoy your music/dance links! [ETA: ran the lyrics through Google Translate, and they’re very apropos]
Do you have anything upbeat and/or rousing that could go into the postcard party thread tonight? [makes hopeful eyes]
Nukular Biskits
@cain:
What simultaneously infuriates and frightens me about the “Israel does no wrong” crowd is that a lot of it is driven by evangelical beliefs; i.e., the Jews are God’s chosen people and he “gave” them the land of Israel.
Even more frightening is the motivation some of these wackaloons have for encouraging more violence: To bring about the End Times.
Eolirin
@Dorothy A. Winsor: For me it’s been Kosh coming to G’kar as a Narn angel and pointing out how the cycle of retaliation, no matter how justified, only ends with everyone dead.
When both sides are dead no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it… It only matters who is suffering.
schrodingers_cat
@H.E.Wolf: Thanks I am glad you enjoyed it. What do you have in mind? Dance numbers?
Right now Indians are celebrating Navratri (9 nights) a celebration of the feminine form of the divine. I can compile a list of navratri numbers
Another one from the same era
Describing romantic love
Ishq (my relative Anuradha Paudwal is singing for the Miss World, Aishwarya Rai) and this was A. R. Rahman’s breakout score for Hindi movies.
Sushmita Sen won the Miss Universe and Aishwarya Rai won the Miss World in the same year!
Geminid
@CaseyL: The problem is that there may not be an election for a while. But this poll shed light on people’s sentiments right now.
The number for Gantz’s party was very striking. It’s been a long time since an Israeli party even polled this high. In the last election, Netanyahu’s Likud won ~31 seats, and Yair Lapid’s Yesh Atid won 26.
A former Defense Minister and IDF Chief of Staff, Benny Gantz is widely respected. He even looks the part of war leader: a tall, tough and brainy soldier. Gantz is a throwback to the era when Israel was run by what they cslled the WASP elite. That would be White, Askenazi, Sabra Paratroopers.
JPL
@schrodingers_cat: They are both lovely. Which one do you like?
NotMax
@Eolirin
Cue Broderick Crawford.
;)
H.E.Wolf
@schrodingers_cat:
Everything you mentioned sounds brilliant. I’ll defer to your knowledge of the material… looking forward to it!
schrodingers_cat
@JPL: I like both, I used different art supplies and techniques for both. One took me weeks and one took me hours to complete.
Also green and black is not a combination I have used before. So I am happy how well it worked out.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Excellent points, well stated. I think it’s on all of us to do that, to keep an even keel, and especially for front-pagers and commenters like yourself whose nyms are known, and views respected – even if not always agreed with!
We have to stay cool, ask questions, be willing to accept that maybe, just maybe, we initially read it wrong, or whatever. But, as they say, sometimes an asshole is just an asshole.
JPL
@Nukular Biskits: In a week or two they will back to blaming the Rothchilds and George Soros.
might be time for them to look in the mirror.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus:
This really strikes a chord with me because there is a commenter here who seemingly likes to pick at me at every opportunity lately. It was starting to get kind of annoying, but I recently learned that they are going through some things, and that makes it easier to let it go.
It’s like when I’m driving on the highway, I sort of assume that most drivers are idiots or assholes, or maybe they are super tired (which can be as bad as driving drunk) or maybe they have just gotten terrible news and they are super distracted.
So I drive defensively, aware that all drivers are not at their best at any given time. It doesn’t hurt to assume that’s not only true when you’re in a car.
WaterGirl
@Tony Jay:
Is that a British phrase? I have never heard that before and have no idea what it means.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: Here you go.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Appreciate that. I still don’t quite see how that fits there, or exactly what Tony Jay is trying to convey with that last line.
Betty Cracker
This is definitively the stupidest column ever written about Biden-Harris 2024.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: For a second I thought you might be talking about this post! :-)
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker: wow
kindness
Well said. I used to support a two state view, but I no longer think that is possible. Too much land has been stripped away in the West Bank for it to be able to work. Assuming of course that the settlers who have moved in would probably revolt if told they had to live under a Palestinian government. So…That leaves a one state solution. I support the idea of both Gaza and the West Bank becoming part of Israel and the Palestinians should all get Israeli/Palestinian citizenship with all rights. Now this will also probably never happen because if it did, Israel would no longer be a majority Jewish state. I’m OK with that. I have an American perspective. Most the locals in Israel (and Palestine) most likely don’t want that though. Where does that leave the area then? Up Schitt Creek with no paddles I figure.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: I wonder how many Democrats he actually talked to. And where they were.
MagdaInBlack
@Betty Cracker: You sure are right about the stupid. And also too, step aside for whom? He wants a Thomas Jefferson? FFS
Eta: more oh ffs, he’s comparing it to republicans asking Nixon to resign ??
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Wowser!
I could only bear to skim it, but it was chock full of awful stuff that is awfully wrong.
Leading Democrats need to go to the White House to ask Biden and Harris to step aside
by DOUGLAS MACKINNON, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR
We should all remember that name, and remember to check for his byline before reading anything at The Hill.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: This Douglas person is a Republican according to his bio at the end of the op-ed. He wants them to step down because he wants Ds to lose.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: In an Ohio diner? And he just assumed they were Democrats.
MomSense
I remember feeling that hope for peace between Israel and Palestine died with Rabin. We haven’t had leaders with that courage since.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: Hill is pretty wingnutty these days. IDK if they have always been that way.
MagdaInBlack
@WaterGirl: Oh do read it. Its quite the exercise in what the ever luvin F is this guy on.
schrodingers_cat
@MagdaInBlack: I think the Ds he is talking to are the voices in his head.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: Agree on The Hill. They are always suspect, but that article is so over the top I would have thought it was parody.
Steeplejack
@Betty Cracker:
Oh, Betty, there’s so much time yet.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@schrodingers_cat: The Hill was always kind of B-list publication, as I recall, but not it seems to be where people get published, or self-publish, when they get turned down by Town Hall and the Washington Examiner
MagdaInBlack
@schrodingers_cat: That was my profanity laden question ” who are these democrats he talks to?” ( i cleaned it up for you )
Btw: I like the second butterfly best.
WaterGirl
@MagdaInBlack: I think he should have stopped here:
I can’t find a Democrat I know
That’s because he apparently doesn’t know a single Democrat.
Nukular Biskits
@Betty Cracker:
WTF is Douglas MacKinnon and why should ANY Democrat listen to him?
For that matter, why didn’t the editors at The Hill demand at least some modicum of evidence to support this claim?
kindness
@Betty Cracker: There is a reason The Hill doesn’t have comment sections.
MagdaInBlack
@WaterGirl: 🤗😉 yup
Betty Cracker
@MagdaInBlack: I’ve read a lot of dumb columns on this topic, but this one takes the cake as it’s stupid on every conceivable level. He doesn’t even bother offering a theory of why they are unfit! I mean, that’s a pretty glaring oversight! And he doesn’t acknowledge that his own party is so goddamn dysfunctional that there would be no replacement if Biden and Harris took his advice!
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Nukular Biskits: This reminds me of my white suburban neighbors in Michigan who didn’t believe the polls saying Bill Clinton would win. They didn’t know anyone who was voting for Clinton!
WaterGirl
Did everyone see this? It may have been in an Anne Laurie post, I can’t recall.
SpaceUnit
The Hill is the same bastion of principled journalism that gave us the right wing lunacy of John Solomon and then pretended to be shocked and outraged when it was revealed he was coordinating his talking points directly with the trump White House.
Their weaselry continues apace.
Captain C
@Betty Cracker: Given the lack of real alternatives put forth, I can only assume bad faith on the part of the author, and that they want something like a Bernie/Joe Lieberman ticket, or maybe one of the two plus Liz Chaney.
This quote:
3 dead, one ineligible. Of the 3 dead, one was a slaveholder who raped at least one of his slaves multiple times and the other two were assassinated. Also, one was a Republican, albeit from before the party went totally bad. Do people even think before they write anymore?
I assume the author is not looking at all, except perhaps in his 1984 Conservadem contact book.
WaterGirl
@WaterGirl: Has the avatar for Biden-Harris HQ always been Dark Brandon? I just noticed that!
Captain C
@Betty Cracker: Also, if it’s the same guy, this is the first line in his online bio:
Yeah, totally going to take his advice on what Democrats should do.
Brachiator
@Geminid:
What is “Sabra?”
Also, why would paratroopers be particularly admired?
Captain C
@MagdaInBlack:
He either needs to stop taking it or double the dose.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Captain C: Thank you for providing yet another reason for reading BJ. I didn’t need to read past the first paragraph.
@Betty Cracker: I trust your judgement.
sab
@WaterGirl: Horse racing term: hiding/beating a horse with 0 chance of winning anything.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator:
Sabras are Israelis born in Israel. Paratroopers are seen as the elite of the IDF.
Jay
@WaterGirl:
“a hiding to nothing” as Tony Jay meant it, is he is going to get piled on and attacked, and the words he wrote will change nothing and nobody.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@WaterGirl: woo hoo. Now that’s an ad!
Tony Jay
@WaterGirl:
It is. Well, possibly Aussie too, but mostly British. It basically means that you can try as hard as you like, but it won’t matter, because for certain insurmountable reasons you’re not going to achieve anything.
By which I mean, Rothkopf can make his case with all the considerable skill at his command and deploy all the facts available, it’s still not going to stop bad faith cheerleaders for apartheid and genocide from calling him and people like him antiSemites, because shoving aside reality to scream lies at the world is their job.
tobie
I don’t agree with Rothkopf but that feels besides the point right now.
What I don’t think he acknowledges is how afraid Jews are. The President of the Board of a Detroit synagogue was found dead today outside her home from multiple stab wounds. It may not have to do with the conflict in the Mideast but it’s hard not to jump to that conclusion. I read the news and gasped.
In the past week, Jewish businesses and apartment buildings where Jews live in Berlin and Dortmund have been marked with Jewish Stars.
People on all sides of this conflict but living elsewhere are by turns anguished and enraged and a lot of hatred is coming out.
Juliette Kayyam posted a tweet today that gave me a small measure of hope.
https://nitter.net/juliettekayyem/status/1715737402931572904#m
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
Wow! You’re right. This is the dumbest thing I’ve read about the Biden-Harris team in a long time. Then I see who the author is.
Why would anyone care about a Republican’s viewpoint? And with all the things happening in the world, why even waste time publishing such partisan trash?
But I guess it is just part of the ongoing media effort to undermine Biden and Harris.
Brachiator
@Omnes Omnibus:
At an Applebee’s ?
Betty Cracker
@tobie: I’m working on a post about Biden’s speech and how he’s dealing with this issue plus Ukraine and the fascist GOP and foreign relations in general. I may never finish it because I’m no expert, and sometimes keeping quiet is best. But two conclusions I’ve reached are 1) I wouldn’t have Biden’s job for anything, and 2) he’s walking a tight rope better than we could reasonably hope so far.
Bill Arnold
@Omnes Omnibus:
Was curious, so poked a few minuts. An old piece about Israeli paratroopers, who do not actually use parachutes:
59 years after last combat use, why do Israel’s paratroopers need new chutes? -The IDF is introducing the Stork, a US-made parachute that’s safer, can carry more weight and affords a gentler landing. But who jumps out of planes in modern warfare anyway? ((MITCH GINSBURG, 19 January 2015)
Chris Johnson
@Betty Cracker: I didn’t know Cenk Uygur had a pen name :)
lowtechcyclist
@Betty Cracker:
I had to Google the author, and the first thing besides Wikipedia that popped up was a piece in Creative Loafing Tampa Bay about the Tampa Trib firing him nine years ago, almost to the day.
The Trib was mum about why, but as the CL article notes, MacKinnon had just published a book:
So we’re talking about a guy who wanted the South to secede from the rest of the U.S. over LGBT rights. Wasn’t merely against them like most RWNJs, but wanted to literally break the U.S. apart over them. So he’s very much the RWNJ’s RWNJ.
Geminid
The Dallas Morning News had an article yesterday titled, “How the Dallas Cowboys landed Dolly Parton for their Thanksgiving half-time show.”
The reporter got the story from Rebecca Jones, the Cowboys Executive Vice President and owner Jerry Jones’s daughter. Ms. Jones said that they have been trying for years to line up Dolly Parton, but things finally came together in May when Parton was in town to host the Academy of Country Music’s awards show.
The concert is well timed, as Parton will release her new album Rockstar next month. According to Jones, this “will be a show no one has seen before.” I guess so. The Cowboys cheerleaders will be performing with Ms. Parton, which may be a first for her.
These Dallas Thanksgiving half-time shows help kick off the Salvation Army’s Red Kettle Campaign.
Game time is 4:30 pm, so Parton’s performance should take place around 6 or so. CBS will broadcast the game and show.
tobie
@Betty Cracker: Thanks for responding. Biden has the most unenviable job and one thing I have come to deeply admire is that his moral compass and comfort with his own values enables him to work behind the scenes without necessarily divulging it to the public. He was able to get aid flowing today. He may have stalled the ground offensive. He’s put talk of a two-state solution back on the table. It’s not that I want to encourage opacity. But in a trigger happy, inflamed region, discretion can be an incredible asset.
db11
@Betty Cracker: Great article from Noga Tarnopolsky at New York magazine that may be of some interest for your upcoming post:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/israel-hamas-war-how-joe-biden-bigfooted-benjamin-netanyahu.html
zzyzx
I’ve been spending time on Blue Sky since Twitter is falling apart which means dealing with more diehard leftists, and that’s been depressing. So many people there, in their desperate need to have a simplistic good and evil worldview, have this view that the Jews were just chilling in Europe, kind of bored, threw a dart at the map, and decided to invade the country where it landed.
I mean the basic Mideast problem is easy enough to explain: In the wake of the Holocaust, it became obvious that the status quo of the Jews being kicked around from country to country in Europe wasn’t going to be able to work… but the solution to that had the not exactly minor problem that there were people living there who also think of that as their homeland.
The solution? The obvious one (Israel back to 1967 borders, 2 state solution, Jerusalem some sort of weird independent city) no longer is wanted by anyone and no one trusts anyone to talk to each other anymore so the entire region just depresses me.
sab
@Brachiator: Sabras are Israelis born in Israel. Sabras are also cactus pears: prickly on the outside and soft and sweet on the inside. In the earlier days in Israel a lot of the people sabras remember living peacefully with Arabs under the Ottoman Empire. They were mostly Sephardic.
Sabras as a term seems pointless nowadays because Israel is so many generations away from its founding.
Betty Cracker
@db11: It features in the draft I’ve been working on since this morning!
NotMax
@lowtechcyclist
Oughtn’t it be titled The Secessionist States of America: The Redprint for Creating a Traditional Values Country then?
Either way, likely sold tens of copies.
//
Omnes Omnibus
@Bill Arnold: No one has jumped into combat much since WWII. Airborne units are still seen as elite (at least in their own minds). I am still proud of my wings.
MagdaInBlack
@lowtechcyclist: So, yup: a lunatic.
Bill Arnold
@Jay:
The many replies in the twitter thread were nearly all respectful, and mostly in agreement. Right-wing zionists should take note.
Sister Golden Bear
@Bill Arnold: Also MANPADs (shoulder-fired surface to air missiles) are ubiquitous and just love targets that fly low and slow — which is exactly what paratrooper planes have to do. So the era of paratroopers parachuting into dangerous areas is pretty much over.
Chacal Charles Calthrop
@kindness: the most intractable fights can be resolved when there’s some intervening circumstance. Northern Ireland was as irresolvable a religious fight as any until Ireland joined the EU and, as the only English-speaking country in the EU, became rich by granting EU tax havens to all the American corporations relocating into it. This was a game-changer because no-one had ever dreamt that Ireland would ever under any circumstances become a rich nation. Obviously none of those corporations were going to relocate into a warzone, so the northern Irish, without improving their characters one whit, made peace in order to get access to the money. And then Brexit raised the dazzling possibility that Northern Ireland might voluntarily join Catholic Ireland just to retain access to the EU!
As a descendent of white chimpanzees, I don’t have a god in the Israel-Palestine fight, except to say that for most of the world the Palestinian position makes more sense. Every continent has had the experience of white people getting off a boat with the bible in one hand and a gun in the other saying, “God gave us this,” waiving authority from a white Pope/King/UN to back them up. The Isreali position makes a lot less sense: if the Israelis can cut off water, food, and fuel to Gaza, then Gaza is territory that must be already under their total control. If Gaza is territory already under total Israeli control, why are the Zionists entitled to wage war against it? Hamas has automatic weapons, but so do the “Second Amendment” people in my country.
The other point I’d like to make is that while the Zionists are certain that their situation is sui generis, I’m not so sure that’s true. If Israeli is allowed to put themselves on a war footing with the “wrong” ethnic enclave in their country and wage war on that ethnic group whenever there’s a terrorist attack, why wouldn’t the Chinese be allowed to do the same with the Uighurs or the Tibetans, or Myanmar with the Rohingyas, or Modi’s India with the Muslim enclaves in otherwise Hindu cities? It’s like watching Russia flatten Chechnya.
I remain very grateful to Adam for explaining all the military developments, philosophy, and news. But I don’t think there’s a military solution unless Israel wants to become a country like Russia.
NotMax
@Geminid
Dollars to doughnuts the original phrasing was “How the Dallas Cowboys nailed Dolly Parton for their Thanksgiving half-time show.” and someone on the ball caught it before publishing.
Bill Arnold
@Omnes Omnibus:
Justly so.
I have willpower-suppressed fear of heights and would never ever jump out of a perfectly good airplane. Maybe if it was on fire.
Viva BrisVegas
@Tony Jay: Very much Aussie too.
Although I always took it as meaning taking a metaphorical beating to no good effect. Which is pretty much the same.
db11
@Betty Cracker: I should have known you’d already be on top of it!
Geminid
@Brachiator: The Sabra is a cactus native to the Negev desert, and Israeli settlers used the name to describe their native born. And as Omnes said, the Paratroopers are the Army elite who often achieve leadership status in civic institutions as well as the IDF.
Betty Cracker
@Geminid: I’ll be watching that along with my wingnut relatives. (It’s wingnut Thanksgiving and liberal Christmas this year.)
cain
@Omnes Omnibus: absolutely. I try not to make assumptions and sometimes problem are more nuanced and complex than their positions on a topic could be.
Well said.
stinger
@schrodingers_cat:
Now, more than ever, I need to gaze upon beautiful things. Thank you!
cain
@Nukular Biskits: it’s amazing that they hold both beliefs. If I were a Jew I would not want such supporters. They hold no respect for me and wish me death so they can get their heavenly reward. Why God would choose to have those people in his kingdom makes me question whether it’s a good place to go!
I think I prefer Hinduism or Eastern religions.
Bill Arnold
@Brachiator:
I take some small comfort in it, because it yet again demonstrates (assuming that the author believes what he wrote) that a significant part of the Republican “intelligentsia” is utterly detached from mainstream reality, and that is a serious weakness that can be and will be exploited by Democrats.
It’s an opinion piece. The Hill overall is much more neutral.
WaterGirl
@Tony Jay: Thanks for clarifying!
It’s still valuable for him and people like him to speak up. He put words to how I am feeling, and it’s nice to know that I’m not alone in that.
Another Scott
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: Thanks for your thoughts.
Everything’s complicated, with shades of grey everywhere.
NationalWW2Museum.org:
I liked that Biden made sure to emphasize several times in his recent comments that it’s vital to treat people with dignity and respect, just as he does in speeches here. That’s got to be part of the path forward.
Cheers,
Scott.
Tony Jay
@Viva BrisVegas:
Pretty much. There are some points of view that will get you mobbed by organised thuggery faster than you can say ‘self-hating’, Rothkopf’s is one of them.
WaterGirl
@tobie:
So do you agree with what Rothkopf said, but you think it should have also included acknowledgement of how afraid Jews are?
Or, if you disagree with what he actually said, I would be curious to know what you disagree with.
I believe that whether it’s stabbing and murder at a synagogue or the stabbing and murder of a 6-year old Palestinian boy, it’s all wrong, and it can’t excuse going after other innocent people.
cain
@Geminid: I used to give to the salvation army until I found out that I was funding conversions and noped right out of that
I’m ok with christian based philanthropy but it cant be a vehicle to convert people it will corrupt the whole thing.
cain
@zzyzx: mastodon is the same. Lot of criticism of the Biden administration. I knew the photo of him meeting with that son of a bitch, Bibi with that look of empathy on his face would have been triggering.
RevRick
My wife and I both had Jewish grandmothers, our daughter is married to a Jewish man, and my parents both served in the American embassy in Berlin before the war, so I am acutely aware of the mental illness called antisemitism. I’m also aware that my status as a Christian minister would not protect me or my family, should there be another virulent outbreak.
I understand the pain Hamas terrorist attack has caused Jews around the world. Just last night I received a phone call from a Jewish woman, who had arranged a business meeting at a newly opened Palestinian restaurant and now wants to back out. Her anguish was palpable. Another young Jewish man posted on Facebook his fear about wearing his kippah in public, and then his resolute determination to wear it despite his fear.
Abstract discussions about Israel and Palestine are, for me, detached from the reality of fear and pain in the Jewish community. The woman I spoke with also mentioned the fact that at an interfaith gathering at the local Jewish community center there was a huge police presence. She said it made her feel both safe and unsafe at the same time.
I imagine there are similar feelings in the Palestinian community.
It breaks my heart.
Martin
Try living in Gaza right now.
I don’t mean to diminish that feeling of fear – it’s real and it’s valid, but there are different ways of dealing with that. One way is to lash out, or to be impulsive and cover up that fear with some other emotion (the calls for retribution). Another way, which doesn’t usually address the fear in the near term is to focus on the root causes.
My support for the Israeli government is very much like Rothkopfs – when the government turned away from core democratic values, has been openly supporting annexation of Palestine, interfered in Palestinian elections – that’s not a government I can support – just like I can’t support the Russian government when that government does the exact same things. ‘Fear’ is not an adequate justification because the targets of those policies have the same kind of fear, and those policies are an expression that ‘my fear is more meaningful than yours’, which is bullshit.
Note, I would be surprised if the Detroit synagogue presidents perpetrator turned out to be a muslim. The man who killed the 6 year old boy is Catholic. These actions are not a direct result of the conflict, but part of a long running political proxy, and that’s the fundamental problem at least in the US that needs to be addressed – how Christians use anti-semitism and anti-muslim viewpoints as part of domestic politics.
When I was working, my campus had very active student jewish and muslim communities that were often in friction with each other. Bad for student groups, but not bad by any other standard. But we got nonstop death threats, bomb scares, and so on – and when the FBI did scoop these people up, they were never Jewish or Muslim. US antisemitism isn’t rooted in muslim sympathy – it’s based on a whole bunch of other stuff. And the problem is that when Israel takes actions against agents that are directly threatening Israel, that becomes a catalyst for US antisemitism, because almost *anything* can be a catalyst for US antisemitism.
Even though the conflict may be Israel/Palestine or even Ukraine/Russia, local expressions around those conflicts are still rooted in local politics – and need to be addressed in the framework of local politics. And I think that gets very hard to do when you’re a part of it. Yes, it does spur an expression of what Israel should do, but at the end of the day, the fear is because white christians want this to be a white christian nation and will punch down on both jews and muslims, choosing their targets based on what event gives them the best justification.
Rothkopfs point is a very old one – one asserted at the outset of the US and French experiments – that security and stability are anchored in self-determination, and that you cannot short-circuit that. That Israel has turned away from that concept is alarming to many of us – because that way lies ruin, eventually. Maybe not in Bibi’s political lifetime, but eventually.
Omnes Omnibus
@Martin:
And yet…
WaterGirl
@RevRick: I have noticed that sometimes it’s only in moments of great personal loss and pain that a person can change in a way that no one, including them, would have thought possible.
I hold the tiniest bit of hope that, somehow, with Biden in the middle of things, maybe this can be a moment when we could see a seismic shift in a seemingly intractable situation.
Sometimes things are impossible, until they aren’t.
Frankensteinbeck
@Chacal Charles Calthrop:
To anyone not aware, the British intelligencia described the Irish this way back during the Empire.
Lyrebird
@Dorothy A. Winsor: @Eolirin:
In Arthur Waskow’s book, Seasons of our Joy, he offers a version of an old Hasidic tale called the Last Tisha B’Av that tries to offer a different vision, a coming together to beat our swords into plowshares. Hard to believe in that right now, but I am going to type these words to give that idea at least one more molecule of oxygen.
Brachiator
@Chacal Charles Calthrop:
The Good Friday Agreement of 1998 ended the Troubles.
BREXIT has only exacerbated the anxieties of Protestants, who fear that they will lose connection to the UK. This fear is so great that it also has undermined power sharing agreements between Protestants and Catholics (or Unionists and Loyalists). I think that overall, Northern Ireland voted against BREXIT.
And of course, BREXIT supporters lied about its impact on Northern Ireland in order to win the vote.
Another Scott
@Betty Cracker: There will, no doubt, be others.
The Hill is a right wing joint, but they’re good at publishing quick news about Congress. They do publish some opinion pieces from our side of the aisle too, for some balance, but one has to keep their slant on things in mind.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Geminid
@sab: This WASP trope is a couple decades out of date. For one thing, Mizrachi Jews who immigrated from North Africa and the Middle East have mostly caught up with their Ashkenazi compatriots, in the political sphere and in public and private institutions. Gadi Eisenkot, the new War Cabinet “Observer,” became the first Mizrachi IDF Chief of Staff ever just a few years ago.
The Likud party has a of Mizrachi voters and politicians. Back in 1977, Menachim Begin was able to dislodge Labor from its dominant position by mobilizing Mizrachi voters.
And like you say, being native born is no longer so much a distinction in Israel. I think Paratroopers still are special to an extent, but there are other elite Army formations and the fighter pilots also have high status. I just thought this Israeli WASP thing was really funny when I first read about it, and it may express some truths about 20th Century Israeli politics.
tobie
@WaterGirl: To be brief, I don’t think the situations in Gaza and the West Bank are the same and I don’t believe the settlements in the West Bank had anything to do with Hamas’s attack, so invoking them right now feels like trying to turn the tables to a less complicated situation rather than dealing with the messiness of how a country is supposed to deal with a place from which rockets are routinely lobbed and which has become a staging ground for attacks. I’d love to see Likud toppled; I’d love to see the settlements dismantled so there can be a return to the negotiating table where the thorny issue of water rights and the division of Jerusalem can be discussed. But I don’t think that will make a damn bit of difference for Hamas.
schrodingers_cat
@stinger: Aww thanks! I am glad you like it.
Tony Jay
@WaterGirl:
Oh I agree, I just hope that there’s a better climate in America for his wise words than over here. I’m just a bit jaded because I spent 2016 to 2019 watching the British Media cynically blacklist everyone to the left of Alan Dershowitz so they could present mainstream opinion on Israel/Palestine as dangerous, terrorist-loving extremism, all for domestic political reasons.
Chacal Charles Calthrop
@Brachiator: North Ireland did, and the Brexit supporters lied about everything, but the violence is pretty much over.
I am very impressed with Biden’s performance so far and with his ability to express sympathy for all sides, which I believe is performative and designed to rescue the hostages. Protip: if the FBI hostage negotiator tells you he feels your pain, he may not be telling the whole truth.
WaterGirl
@tobie: I appreciate the explanation. As far as I can see, no one is on the side of Hamas. Except for Iran, etc. No actual people who are concerned about people and safety and the right to self-determination seem to be on the side of Hamas.
WaterGirl
@Chacal Charles Calthrop:
It seems like you have an opinion on which sides Biden is actually sympathetic toward, but you haven’t said what which sides.
Eolirin
@tobie: Well, pulling a lot of IDF forces out of southern Israel to protect West Bank settlers certainly didn’t help the situation. Hamas might not have been able to pull this off if not for that.
And Netanyahu has been intentionally propping up Hamas as a way to further erode any support of a two state solution, which has helped lead to this moment as well.
They’re not so separate as all that.
Steeplejack
Douglas MacKinnon is not just “a Republican.” He was a speechwriter for Reagan and Bush Jr. So he’s deep in the cult.
Jackie
@Betty Cracker: I saw that article earlier today and didn’t get past the first paragraph.
tobie
@Martin: I made it clear that I was talking about tempers being inflamed outside the conflict zone, not within it. Yes, life in Gaza is hell. In my response to WaterGirl (#126) I explained why I didn’t think the situations in Gaza and the West Bank were the same and that finding a way to end the conflict in Gaza was going to require diplomats who have much more skill and wisdom than I do. In the meantime I’ll go back to worrying if my 94-year-old mother is okay. She agreed to speak this evening at a school about her experience during the Holocaust. I’m not sure the audience will be receptive. I hate having to worry about this in the US.
Betty Cracker
@Eolirin: I know nothing about Israeli politics, but the view you expressed is widely shared by Israelis, if the English-language press there is representative.
tobie
@Eolirin: Netanyahu betrayed his own people. That still doesn’t mean that the path to resolving the conflict in Gaza is the same as the path needed in the West Bank. Placing more troops on the southern border doesn’t change the status quo. It reinforces it.
Steeplejack
@Steeplejack:
Oops, Bush senior. My bad.
patrick II
@Betty Cracker: \
From your referenced story.
I will consider it right after leading Republicans ask Trump to step aside. Actually, do you think that might happen after his second, third, or fourth conviction? If so, never mind.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
We need a necromancer.
That tracks.
Martin
@Omnes Omnibus: Acknowledging that everyone might be afraid doesn’t require diminishing a specific persons’s fear.
lowtechcyclist
@NotMax:
Yeah, I’m not trying to suggest that MacKinnon is influential, just showing how far into bizarro-world is the place he’s coming from.
Betty Cracker
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Just want to note (IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS!) that’s a quote from an article I linked, not from me.
Geminid
@Eolirin: Everything about this conflict is connected. But I think sometimes people needs to write about different aspects of it separately if they want their comment to come in under 700 words.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Betty Cracker: Haha, I did include the author’s blurb.
Timill
@Brachiator: Unionists are (approximately) Loyalists. Their opposite would generally be Republicans (favoring union with the Republic).
Another Scott
Reuters has a multimedia map of analysis by Masae Analytics of buildings “damaged or destroyed” in Gaza since October 7.
(On my laptop, I used PgDn to move between the text boxes and so forth.)
( ),
Scott.
The Truffle
Why are people calling Biden “genocide Joe”? I don’t get it.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
This is the first I’m hearing of it. I’d have hoped you’d find out for me
ETA: Also, “some people are saying” isn’t a source. Look for theoretically substantive grounds. Assess those grounds, if found, or, if not, ignore the epithet.
Alison Rose
@Martin: By immediately countering the statement about the fear Jews live with, you are indeed diminishing it. And this is part of the problem. Jews are never allowed to talk about what we live with, whether or not there is an active war going on, because someone is always going to pop up and tell us it’s not as bad as [X].
Our entire lived history is one of fear. Our entire existence as a people has been one of trying to survive the hatred of others. We have spent our whole history on this planet being demonized — literally and figuratively. We have been the scapegoat time and time and time again all over the world. The insane beliefs about us, the heaping of blame and shame on us, the disgust for us, the fear of us has been there since time immemorial, going back to antiquity. Read the timeline of antisemitism on Wikipedia. Scroll down the whole thing. Look at how often the word “expel” shows up. For centuries upon centuries, we’ve been kicked out and banished from nearly every damn place we’ve tried to live. For centuries upon centuries, people have attempted to eradicate us entirely, and somehow, somehow, we have survived to the present, where people are still trying to eradicate us.
And where too many people do not fucking care. One thing that has become yet again clear is that not only is the antisemitism on the left still festering, but other liberals refuse to see it. It’s very comfy and easy to say “Oh no no, bigotry only happens on the right, we’re the good people”. It’s easy to act like you care in the micro when a synagogue is shot up or a rabbi is killed or a swastika is painted on someone’s door. It’s easy to make the right mouth noises at those times. But in the macro, the simple fact and one that most liberals will refuse to accept: There are a lot of people, across the political spectrum, who do not care if Jews die. They do not care. They will scream from the mountaintops that IT’S NOT ANTISEMITIC TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL and that’s true, but in the next breath, they will say “Jews” instead of “Israelis”, and they will use not just the Israeli flag but the Star of David on its own in their memes. They think expressing any concern for the lives of Jews means less concern for the lives of Palestinians. They said barely a peep when Hamas rolled through, except to preemptively lambast Israel’s likely response. They may not be Holocaust deniers, but they are what I call Holocaust dismissers. They believe it happened, and sure, it was bad, but in truth, they don’t really give a shit, and they want us to get over it. I have seen that exact phrase so many times, including many over the past couple weeks. Get over it. Get over the Holocaust. Get over six million of your people being murdered.
They say that because they don’t really care. They say we don’t need a homeland because they don’t care about what led to it. Because they don’t care, or more likely don’t know because they love their ignorance, about how many thousands of places we’ve been banished from. They don’t care about our lives because while we have our inherited trauma from centuries of hatred, they have inherited neglect and aversion. They might not believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, but they do believe we secretly hold more power than we ever have or ever will. They grew up in a world where the only reason Jews still exist is because multiple attempts at annihilation only got partway there.
Our existence is one forged in fear, molded by hatred, and driven by the terrifying whims of others. It is a fucking miracle that any of us are still alive on this planet, considering how many times over how many centuries people have tried to remove us from it wholesale. We live in fear, and alongside that, we have to live with people responding to our fear by telling us our fear isn’t relevant.
You can care about Palestinians without telling Jews to shut up. You can let a Jewish person talk about their fear without admonishing them to think about Gazans instead. I am able to do both. I can hold my own fear while also holding space for the grief of Palestinians. I can recognize the humanity of my people while also honoring the humanity of others. Too many on the left in this country and others think the right move is to tell Jews to be quiet so Palestinians can be heard. But if you aren’t capable of listening to more than one voice, that is your fucking problem, and I for one am pretty tired of Jews having to live around the problems of goyim.
WaterGirl
@Frankensteinbeck:
Lovely. //
WaterGirl
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: It’s people who want to falsely accuse Joe Biden of being all-in with Israel on this – people who don’t want to acknowledge everything Biden is doing to make sure genocide doesn’t happen in response to this.
Jackie
@Betty Cracker:
Without tripping, stumbling or falling. The RWNJ media is disappointed by how well Biden is thus far handling this.
We all know TIFG would have incinerated tensions and caused more violence and deaths by now by refusing to get involved.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@WaterGirl: That’s just people trying to be provocative. Let’s all try and not be provoked.
Cameron
Earlier today I passed a car with a bumper sticker that read “Trump 2024. Fuck the news.” So there’s that.
WaterGirl
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Agree. I don’t think we should give that particular trope any oxygen.
Chacal Charles Calthrop
@WaterGirl: I think he probably prefers the Israelis because he’s of the generation when they wanted to be a light unto the nations but I think that right now he’s doing a good job regardless. You don’t have to side with someone to want them to continue to stay alive. I think Biden supports stopping the killing regardless of the political solution, and frankly I agree.
But then were it 1859 I’d probably be one of the abolitionists who in vain pointed out that it would be cheaper for the Union to just buy all the slaves and set them free than to fund the coming civil war. No one listened to them, either.
Geminid
@The Truffle: Probably because the US is sending Israel arms and some people frame Israel’s actions in this conflict as genocidal. I don’t share this framing but is being repeated so much that many take it as a settled fact.
RepubAnon
@RepubAnon: Here’s the youTube clip:
Ivanova Tries to Kill Bester
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
It’s all magic. Many right wingers want a life that they think existed at some point in time and it may have. But if it did it was complete crap for almost all involved. Much of the right sees things as if it were a fairy tale. It sounds good for someone, somewhere, possibly over a couple hundred years ago. But it has zero concept of reality and humanity. It’s like reading a poorly written novel about life 400 yrs before anyone alive today by someone who studied history over 60 yrs ago and hasn’t read a non fiction book since and that book was My Little Doggy and His Poop.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Geminid: Even if were one inclined to view Israel’s actions as genocidal, attributing them to the newest US President, only halfway into his term, is laughable even in terms of US responsibility.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, … Phys.org:
(The paper is Open Access – no paywall.)
Great. As if we didn’t have enough to worry about!!1
;-)
Seriously, we need to find a way to make things better for ourselves and our fellow life-forms, because the planet and the universe is trying to kill us all. Life is amazing, and life is precious.
Cheers,
Scott.
frosty
@schrodingers_cat: Those are both really beautiful. You’re getting better every time you post.
Another Scott
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: Lincoln had their number at Cooper Union in 1860 (After the period you mention, but I think the logic still holds.):
Cheers,
Scott.
kalakal
@Chacal Charles Calthrop:
Ireland joined the EU in 1973, it was not however the only English speaking country in the EU as the UK also joined in 1973 and stayed till 2020
Ireland has become a lot wealthier due to tax laws but sadly ethno-nationalist
violence known as the troubles continued until the Good Friday Agreement of 1998*.
* There’s still a lot of potential for violence, splinter groups of paramilitary are still around and the collapse of the agreement would be very dangerous
Eolirin
@Alison Rose: Martin did none of those things. Get some perspective.
schrodingers_cat
@frosty: Thanks. I have better supplies and better techniques!
Geminid
Middle East Eye correspondent Ragip Soylu’s Twitter account (@ragipsoyle has been a good source for updates on this war. On Wednesday, Soylu said, “That’s it!. Y’all can get your news about this war from Middle East Eye from now on. I’m though tweeting about it!”
What happened was that every time Soylu would report on a new development, 20 pro-Palestinian people would yell at him about his pro-Israel bias, and 20 Pro-Israeli people would shout at him about the way he favored Hamas. Then 5 Kurds would jump in to denounce Turkey’s bombing campaign in northeast Syria, and a couple Armenians would chime in with, “Genocidal Turk sez wut?”
Mr. Soylu came back around though, and now he’s tweeting about the latest developments again. But people are very riled up about these events, and it’s not just people living in the region. Sometimes it seems like the further away people are, the more outraged they’ve become.
eclare
@Bill Arnold:
I once sat next to a paratrooper on a plane, don’t remember the branch, and got to talking.
Me: I see no reason to jump out of a perfectly good plane.
Him: ma’am, there is no such thing as a perfectly good plane.
We were on a tiny puddle-jumper, I think a Brasilia model. I am lucky I did not have a heart attack on the spot. Or wet myself.
WaterGirl
@eclare: Funnier now than then!
Gvg
@Alison Rose: I am sorry things are that way but, I concluded some time ago that Israel’s intention to be a Jewish homeland and a democracy was doomed. I won’t wash my hands or abandon the people but if I had any relatives who lived there I would encourage them to immigrate to the US.
The holocaust shocked the west and left them overwhelmed and guilty, rightfully so. But they backed another colonial mistake. We can’t go back in history, and I don’t think the zionists would have listened to us, but a backlash started there that in turn caused a counter cycle and there has been too much blood.
Even though the US has rising antisemitism and other problems, I don’t think they are as built in and systemic as a state religion in a religious war.
eclare
@WaterGirl:
Very much so!
Ruckus
OK something is going on with the commenting or with my computer, screwing up the comment as I type. Shutting down and restarting to see if that helps.
Alison Rose
@Eolirin:
This is your only response? Lovely. Wonderful. Terrific.
My “you” was not specific but the general “you”. My point was not that Martin said or did everything I discussed, but the connotation for what he did say.
But clearly you don’t care about any of that, and I shouldn’t be wasting my time. If everything I said amounted to nothing but telling me to “get some perspective” then it’s pointless for me to keep talking.
Michael Bersin
@Gvg:
Feeling “safe” or “safer” in the United States is not necessarily an opinion held by everyone.
Michael Bersin
@Alison Rose:
“….Our existence is one forged in fear, molded by hatred, and driven by the terrifying whims of others. It is a fucking miracle that any of us are still alive on this planet, considering how many times over how many centuries people have tried to remove us from it wholesale. We live in fear, and alongside that, we have to live with people responding to our fear by telling us our fear isn’t relevant….”
Exactly this.
WaterGirl
@Alison Rose:
Trying to understand what you are saying there. Do you mean connotation or context? Because I didn’t see any subtext or undertones of any of what you wrote in what Martin said. Did you?
But if you were trying to provide further information for context or so non-Jewish people can better understand or take a wider view, I totally get that.
No one in this thread is trying to fight you or attack you or disregard what you are saying. It’s generally been a useful conversation this afternoon, and it feels to me like everyone commenting has nothing but good intentions. Which doesn’t mean that some of us don’t occasionally step into piles of poop that we don’t even know are there.
schrodingers_cat
To all Jewish BJers, I am sorry about what you are going through. You are in my thoughts. No ifs or buts. The ugly anti-semitism coming from both the left and right is scary.
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: I suppose I meant context. That there is a host of important knowledge to be aware of before telling Jews our fears are not relevant, or not as bad as others, or need to be gotten over, or whatever the case may be.
I don’t label Martin’s comment as an attack. But to respond to someone noting the fears Jews have with “oh yeah well what about these other people” is disrespectful, ahistorical, and unnecessary. And the context being that this kind of comment is not made in vacuum but in a society which has always treated us like vermin to be dealt with and has never cared that much about our lives or health or safety. One person may not be doing that, but whatever an individual person does say or do cannot be wholly divorced from that reality.
Eolirin
@Alison Rose: It is because any more would result in me going off on you. And I’d really rather not do that.
I’m saying this as a fellow Jew. What is and has been happening to the people in Gaza, and that it’s been happening at the hands of Jews is a sin of unbelievable proportions that does damage to the entire community. It’s a betrayal of everything we’re supposed to stand for. Of our concepts of Tikkun Olam, of our commitment to Never Again.
If any community gets a pass on being able to talk or be talked about in terms of their fear or their oppression in the same breath as us, or of having their experiences centered at our expense, it’s the Palestinians. We do not get to play that card here with a clean moral conscience. We do not get to perpetuate the cycle of abuse by falling back on our own oppression.
eclare
https://x.com/Schwarzenegger/status/1715418505376682164?s=20
Probably a dead thread, but a very moving speech.
WaterGirl
@Alison Rose: Thanks. Context made sense to me, connotation didn’t.
For what it’s worth, I didn’t take Martin’s comment about the fears of Palestinians in Gaza right now as saying Jewish fears aren’t relevant, or not as bad as the fears in Gaza, or that Jewish people need to get over their fears.
To me (not being Jewish) I took that as an acknowledgement that there are a lot of human beings in fear at the moment – both in Israel and Palestine. And then he immediately jumped to a discussion of what we do with those fears – lashing out, retribution, etc. Look how stupid the US got in the wake of 9/11.
But we all come to everything with our own history, with our own baggage, so I can understand how someone else might read “Try living in Gaza right now”, see red, and not even be able to take in the rest of what he was saying.
Another Scott
@Geminid: tyop
https://nitter.net/ragipsoylu
Thanks for the pointer.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@eclare: I will front page that. I am halfway through and it’s amazing.
ColoradoGuy
Thank you, Alison. It took a lot of courage to write what you did, and frankly, it’s a message many on the Left need to hear. The Right isn’t listening anyway, so fuckem. But the Left needs to hear where people are coming from, without editing or diminishing their experience.
Alison Rose
@Eolirin: I am also repulsed by what TPTB in Israel are doing, as it offends the core of my Judaism. But it is not “Jews” doing this to Gazans. It is the Israeli government. Who, yes, I presume are all Jewish, but they do not stand for all Jews around the world, let alone in Israel.
You and I are not perpetuating the cycle of abuse by simply existing. And it does no one any good to dismiss the experience of Jews. That doesn’t need to happen in order to listen to and honor and respect the experience of Palestinians.
Clearly you and I have different takes on this. Fine. I still maintain that you snidely telling me to “get some perspective” was uncalled for and insulting. But I don’t have it in me to continue this debate.
eclare
@WaterGirl:
It really is, I smelled some chopped onions at times.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: FWIW I need to side with Alison Rose. That is why I responded to Martin’s comment the way I did. I trust that he did not mean to be dismissive, but I can certainly see how, on the back of everything going on the past two weeks and especially the murder of Samantha Woll, any Jewish person could see it that way with very little trouble.
zzyzx
@Michael Bersin: Yeah it’s not like we haven’t been asking ourselves lately if it’s time to leave and where to go to if it is.
brantl
@Omnes Omnibus: Showing equivalence is not diminishment.
brantl
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: They wouldn’t have sold them.
Mr. Bemused Senior
Oh. Yes. [duh! I was confused at first.]
Eolirin
@Alison Rose: I will cop to being snide and insulting. I was, and remain, very angry. But I’m happy to respect not wanting to discuss it further.
Michael Bersin
@zzyzx:
There are only around 17 million of us in the world, and when it does come down to it, there’s only one place that will take us.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: Seconded. See my comment above.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Betty Cracker:
Reagan/Bush dick sucker wants Biden and Harris to step aside? It’s a shame that his dementia is on public display.
way2blue
Such an eloquent statement by David Rothkopf. Thank you for posting this WaterGirl. He puts into words what many of us are feeling. And have been feeling during the last several years.
strange visitor (from another planet)
yeah. it’s funny. i remember why martin went away for a while: because he wasn’t listening to the red-sea pedestrians (like me) who were telling him how ridiculously fucking anti-semitic the goddamn harry potter game was. oh, noes. he knew better, he got yelled at, (as he rightly deserved), he felt aggrieved and vanished.
sooo mebbe not the best go-to-guy for his nuanced views on israel/palestine.
Ramona
@schrodingers_cat: I loved, loved dancing with the sticks the once chance I had to celebrate navratri!
WaterGirl
@strange visitor (from another planet): I am very glad that Martin is back and commenting on Balloon Juice. He’s a very valuable voice here, knowledgeable about a lot of things.
No one here is right about everything.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t think (or hope, or expect) that we will all see this situation exactly the same way. But I do hope that we can all see the humanity in all the people who are suffering in the current mess /war / attacks / retaliation and want everyone to be able to feel safe.
We can’t control whether that’s true in the wider world, but I very much want it to be true here on Balloon Juice.
I will quote someone who posted this very wise thought in one of today’s threads.
Chris T.
@Brachiator:
Because they oppose the orthotroopers?