Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Those who are easily outraged are easily manipulated.

We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

One lie, alone, tears the fabric of reality.

So many bastards, so little time.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

It’s a good piece. click on over. but then come back!!

When I was faster i was always behind.

One way or another, he’s a liar.

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!

SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Everybody saw this coming.

When we show up, we win.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Since we are repeating ourselves, let me just say fuck that.

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

This must be what justice looks like, not vengeful, just peaceful exuberance.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

Relentless negativity is not a sign that you are more realistic.

You are here: Home / Politics / Biden Administration in Action / Thursday Morning Open Thread: Not Yet Tired of All the Winning

Thursday Morning Open Thread: Not Yet Tired of All the Winning

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Activist judges!

Is our Repubs learning?…

Thursday Morning Open Thread 15

Reader Interactions

344Comments

  1. 1.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Xi said he was embarrassed, had been working so hard and had forgotten that his wife’s birthday was next week.”

    Sheeeit, I forget my wife’s birthday every year and it’s April 15.

  2. 2.

    JAFD

    Happy World Philosophy Day !

    also, Happy World Clarinet Day !

    (things you learn listening to WQXR …)

    Stay healthy and happy, everyone !

  10. 10.

    OzarkHillbilly

    I love that MTG-Wray exchange. Her constituents should be embarrassed. They aren’t, but they should be.

  11. 11.

    H.E.Wolf

    @Baud:

    @JAFD:

    Happy World Philosophy Day !

    What is that supposed to mean?

     I wish I could help; but philosophy is a closed book to me, as music is to the tone-deaf.

    /Good morning to everyone, especially Subaru Diane

  13. 13.

    narya

    FREE VANILLA. If you order at Penzey’s, use coupon code LOVE with any purchase and they’ll add free 2 oz. of vanilla (free vanilla for “vermin” according to the email). Today only. (I’ll be in the neighborhood of a store and will get some.) Also, it’s nice to see the Biden team beginning to ramp up the campaign; they know it’s a long haul. I particularly like the emphasis on the “bipartisan” infrastructure projects–there will be new projects starting all year, and that has to help.

  15. 15.

    Another Scott

    Darth Putin
    @[email protected]

    90 weeks of my 3 day war. 310,000 casualties to make Russia great again only for Xi to go to USA & say US/China relations are “world’s most important”.

    I remain a master strategist.

    Nov 16, 2023, 06:36

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  18. 18.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Baud: It means it’s time to tell one of my two philosophy jokes.

    Descartes is sitting at the cafe, sipping a glass of wine.

    The waiter asks, “Another wine, Monsieur Descartes?”

    Descartes says, “I think not.”

    And disappears.

  21. 21.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @OzarkHillbilly: That one made my jaw drop. It’s possible, even logical, for someone to think that the FBI is DHS rather than Justice, but not if that someone is a member of congress who hauled the FBI director in for questioning. She apparently does no homework and has no competent staff either.

  22. 22.

    Another Scott

    Eugene Vindman
    @YVindman
    2h

    Yevgeny Vindman, officer who reported Trump, to run for Spanberger seat washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/…

    Yevgeny Vindman, officer who reported Trump, to run for Spanberger seat
    A career military officer who went from fighting in Iraq to serving in the White House as a national security adviser, Vindman acknowledged that he is a newcomer to Virginia politics.

    washingtonpost.com
    Nov 16, 2023 · 11:40 AM UTC

    (Yevgeny/Eugene is Alexander’s twin brother. )

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  24. 24.

    Frankensteinbeck

    Foser has it nailed.  Being the biggest asshole possible has become the most popular selling point in a Republican primary, and lo and behold, these people can’t get along with each other.

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    I need to read a little Descartes.  I hear he goes utterly off the rails, and “I think, therefor I am” has to be used out of context, because it’s followed immediately by “So things that are inherently obvious are true” and “So the Catholic Church is right about everything.”

  26. 26.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    24 hours ago I had my last wisdom tooth pulled. The oral surgeon couldn’t figure out why I was sentimental about hanging on to a tooth which had not done anything useful in 20+ years, since it had no matching tooth. But I like the thought of hanging on to as many of my own teeth as long as possible.

    Not feeling any pain so far. I don’t remember any with the other three either.

  27. 27.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Frankensteinbeck: I actually had to read bits of Decartes in college. As I recall, he was asking how he knows that things really exist, that he’s not just thinking them up. Then he asked how he know that he really exists. “I think therefore I am” was offered as proof. The quote gets used quite differently.

  28. 28.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: Mine expired a couple years ago and I have yet to renew it. We have another trip to Spain in our future and I definitely want to visit some of our south American cousins.

  29. 29.

    Jackie

    Chinese President Xi Jinping signaled that China will send new pandas to the United States, calling them “envoys of friendship between the Chinese and American peoples,” the AP reports.

    I blame Biden.

  31. 31.

    Jeffro

    man, the Dems in the House are REALLY having their Wheaties every morning, it’s awesome!

    keep it up, happy warriors!!

  35. 35.

    Another Scott

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Wittgenstein is fun, in a make your head hurt kinda way.

    The family appeared to have a strong streak of depression running through it. Anthony Gottlieb tells a story about Paul practicing on one of the pianos in the Wittgensteins’ main family mansion, when he suddenly shouted at Ludwig in the next room:

    I cannot play when you are in the house, as I feel your scepticism seeping towards me from under the door![25]

    “MOM!! He’s Thinking at me Again!!11”

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  37. 37.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @sab: When my wife and I first got serious, I told her I don’t do holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, Valentines, etc etc and that if those things were important to her she should look elsewhere.

    She thought, “Wow, a man who is honest.”

    It’s not strictly true though. One Valentines she told coworkers that she would never get a V-day present from me and how shocked they were at such a revelation. I switched up and sent her a single rose for V-Day.

  38. 38.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Frankensteinbeck: I took a philosophy 101 course as a freshman, and don’t remember anything about it except one of Thomas Aquinas’s proofs of God. “God is the greatest possible being. A being which exists is greater than a being that’s just in your head. Therefore God exists.” It bugged me then and it bugs me now.

  39. 39.

    E.

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

     

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Descartes is unfashionable now but I dare you to read Meditations on First Philosophy and refute his argument. He goes step by step to first principles with radical skepticism as his method. Where he arrives is that no one, even an evil demon, could convince him that he is capable of thought if he does not exist. All else could be an illusion. If you get a good edition it will have arguments and refutations by his contemporaries like Thomas Hobbes. He was an indisputable genius, particularly if you consider his invention of algebraic geometry.

  40. 40.

    JAFD

    @H.E.Wolf: All I can do there is refer you to the famous song about the semantics of communication with a beauty-contest-winning young lady, ie

    “Do you know what it means

    to Miss New Orleans ?”

  47. 47.

    lowtechcyclist

    @H.E.Wolf:

     I wish I could help; but philosophy is a closed book to me, as music is to the tone-deaf.

    “Philosophy is a walk on the slippery rocks” – Edie Brickell

  52. 52.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I actually had to read bits of Decartes in college. As I recall, he was asking how he knows that things really exist, that he’s not just thinking them up. Then he asked how he know that he really exists. “I think therefore I am” was offered as proof. The quote gets used quite differently.

    People are always putting Descartes before the horse.

  55. 55.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    @OzarkHillbilly: I can’t remember how long it took for me to get my US passport renewed (complicated by the fact that it had to be done at the US Embassy in Athens), but it was certainly measured in a significant number of weeks.

    Which is why I was shocked when I went to get a Greek passport for the first time, and asked how many weeks they expected it to take, and was told to return on Friday, and it would be ready. Well, I did, and it was, and three years later I’m still not over the shock.

  60. 60.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    It’s possible, even logical, for someone to think that the FBI is DHS rather than Justice, but not if that someone is a member of congress who hauled the FBI director in for questioning. She apparently does no homework and has no competent staff either.

    Of course, competent staff (if she had any) probably wouldn’t even consider the possibility that she might think the FBI was part of DHS.

  61. 61.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Baud:

    I see the impending retirement is turning you into NotMax.

    Trust me, I’ve been a purveyor of puns and bad jokes for well over half a century.  But with NotMax presumably still sound asleep since it’s 4:30am in Hawaii, that gives me some room to take his place in the morning threads.

  63. 63.

    Geminid

    @Baud: Abigail Spanberger posted a video Monday announcing her run for Governor. It’s very well-made, a little under 3 minutes long.

    Rep. Spanberger gave Democrats a heads up about her plans two months ago. She was waiting until after the General Assembly elections to formally announce, but she wanted to let Democrats know that they would have an open seat to defend next year.

    This will be a competitive race; Spanberger won last year by a lttle over 4%, but I think Republicans will field a stronger opponent next year.

  64. 64.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @BellyCat: Which is why we file our taxes at least a month ahead of time.

    I am just really bad at remembering such shit. I was a half hour late to my counseling appt yesterday because I thought it was scheduled for 2 pm, not 11 am. Only noticed my mistake because I passed the calendar at 11:03.

  65. 65.

    topclimber

    Yay winning!

    But meanwhile the Israeli war on Gaza is escalating opposition on our left flank, one we cannot just ignore by dishing tankie taunts.

    I hope Biden/Blinken can get meaningful humanitarian aid through NOW and a ceasefire soon or I see this becoming a significant damper on Dem turnout, particularly among the youngs.

    Meanwhile, at al Shifa hospital, IDF found some guns but either Hamas got the big stuff out or this was not the armory we were told it was. In any event,  Israel “has yet to show any evidence of an alleged Hamas command center underneath or in the hospital.”

  68. 68.

    E.

    @zhena gogolia: Sure, and mathematics is symbol play. Masonry is stone play. Music is sound play. But played right you end up with some pretty cool things. Democracy and human rights and stuff, for example.

  69. 69.

    coin operated

    @lowtechcyclist:

    “Philosophy is a walk on the slippery rocks” – Edie Brickell

    “Religion is a smile on a dog”. Next verse to that song and, as athiest, this is only religion I might be able to get behind.

  70. 70.

    Tony Jay

    @topclimber:

    They also found some aluminium tubes and a Control Of Substances Hazardous to Health handbook, thereby proving that the hospital was a chemical weapons depot or something equally nefarious. Also ‘child soldiers’. Just saying. /s

  71. 71.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Bruce K in ATH-GR:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    It took me 4-5 months in 2020 but those were unusual circumstances.

    We sent in the renewal applications in mid February, in preparation for a trip scheduled summer 2020. Then the world shut down, we cancelled the trip, and figured it might take a year because the Passport Office was closed.

    A few days later my wife’s new passport arrived. She had been processed in a month. Must have been one of the last processed. At some point around July I found out people in the State Department were going back in on a limited basis and I started using their tracking website to see if there was any change.

    About the time it looked like it was in the queue to be processed according to the website, it arrived in the mail. Maybe 5 months?

    Before Covid, my recollection is that it was usually about 6 weeks.

  72. 72.

    narya

    @E.: I think of it as an attempt to make the world be orderly and predictable and fixed. Then he went off and taught kids, and wrote the Investigations, which basically says, “About that Tractatus: no.” I might be summarizing a bit . . .

  73. 73.

    Kay

    @topclimber:

    I wish Biden would cut it out with the borderline belligerent talk. Would it kill them to give SOME public promotion of humanitarian aid and peace and tone down the tough guy bit? It just seems insanely lopsided. It’s absolutely killing Biden’s public persona as a humanitarian and good guy. Once that’s gone it’s gone- he won’t get it back. The “tankie” bit ignores the polling that says the biggest opponents to this are black and brown Democrats. There’s a split along age lines but there’s also a split along race and ethnicity lines. By 15. That’s huge.

    I want to hear what the United States is doing for the civilians caught up in this. Today. I want AT LEAST as much money put there as put toward Israels already giant, bloated defense systems.

  74. 74.

    Rand Careaga

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    one of Thomas Aquinas’s proofs of God. “God is the greatest possible being. A being which exists is greater than a being that’s just in your head. Therefore God exists.” It bugged me then and it bugs me now.

    Actually, the so-called “ontological argument” was advanced by Anselm of Canterbury (as I recall learning in my own college days), and it bugged Thomas Aquinas too. He wasn’t buying it.

  76. 76.

    Ken

    @Jackie: This is because the tape recorders in the pandas were filling up. China demanded them back so they could send pandas with newer, wifi-enabled spy equipment. If you want to know more, I will be discussing these shocking revelations of Biden’s perfidity in a special OANN appearance this Friday.

  77. 77.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Baud: Checkmate, Reneé

    Further nitpick: The accent aigu is slapped onto the wrong e!

    (I’ll, umm, walk away now… ;^p)

    /piling-on

  78. 78.

    Rand Careaga

    @narya: As a youth I took a great thumping hit of LSD and settled down to peruse the Tractatus, and I gotta say that for an hour I totally grokked the thing, deriving original insights into Wittgenstein’s thinking that had apparently eluded previous generations of exegetists.

    I’ve often thought it a great pity that I proved unable to remember a single one of these once I came to.

  83. 83.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: She pre-announced that an announcement would be coming.  Consider that as you will.

    edit: and now I see that she snuck her announcement in on Monday, when I wasn’t looking.

  86. 86.

    Eolirin

    @Kay: Biden has been making lots of noises about humanitarian aid and the administration is responsible for the pauses in strikes and the organization of aid drops as well as the lifting of seige conditions sooner than the Israeli government would have liked.

    It’s not going to get as signal boosted, while anything pro Israel in this conflict is going to get massively amplified, especially by bad actors, as they know this is a wedge issue they can effectively use, and what is being done is not going to be viewed as anything close to enough by everyone who remotely views the plight of the Palestinians as intolerable. Because it isn’t, but the geopolitical balancing act here is really frickin’ hard and I do not envy the administration for having to deal with it. Domestic political opinion is not the only concern in this conflict.

    And those same bad actors will immediately switch to conflating anything pro-Palestinian as being pro-Hamas and signal boosting the hell out of it if it starts to get traction. So there really is no winning here except for the conflict to end as immediately as possible.

    I’m not sure how much humanitarian aid can be allocated to Gaza either, since we have no ability to pass any funding bills, while I’m pretty sure our arms shipments don’t run into those issues, at least the ones Israel can afford to pay for. We do have existing defense agreements.

  88. 88.

    schrodingers_cat

    I am the only one who is tired of these tantrum toddlers who find a new excuse for not voting for Biden in 2024.

    Last week it was because he was too old

    This week it is because he is not calling for a ceasefire.

    Next week it will be something else.

    I have had it with the emotional blackmail of cosplay leftists who vote 3rd party, sit out elections and only criticize the Dems. I think they are also deluded about their electoral heft. All they do is provide Rs cover and comfort.

  89. 89.

    Baud

    @schrodingers_cat:

    It’s a little broader than that this time because the war is a real tragedy, not something puffed up.  I’ll be more interested in seeing where people land once the fighting stops.

    ETA: The cohort of bad faith actors will move into something else, but they’re not the ones I’m thinking about.

  93. 93.

    Eolirin

    @schrodingers_cat: This isn’t cosplay leftists, which is why it’s a problem. It’s minority and young voters responding to what are legitimate human rights violations on the part of the Israeli defense forces and the administration’s tacit support for them.

    What is happening in Gaza has been an ongoing moral stain on Israel for decades, and now people are seeing more of the reality of that situation and are recoiling in horror from it.

    I should note the numbers Kay’s talking about don’t directly correlate to voter intent; people being upset with Biden over this doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll be willing to vote for Trump or that they won’t be willing to vote for Biden. But they do drive Biden’s favorability down and it was already a little weak. That could hurt us if it’s not reversed and if the margins are very tight.

    These are our core voting groups and this is the one issue the Democrats are on the wrong side of with those groups. It’s the single biggest thing that could damage our prospects going into the next election and the only real wedge issue bad actors will be able to get traction on.

  95. 95.

    Another Scott

    Long version of the House investigation into Santos is out.

    Aaron Fritschner
    @Fritschner
    3m

    The longer (56 pages), more detailed Investigative Subcommittee Report is here:
    ethics.house.gov/sites/ethic…
    Nov 16, 2023 · 3:14 PM UTC

    56 page .pdf

    This matter, however, is unprecedented in many respects. First, it has been the subject of
    Member complaints, House resolutions, an OCE referral, an FEC matter, and federal criminal
    prosecution; as such, the integrity of the House has been called into question in a significant and
    overt manner that the Committee cannot ignore. Second, while it is not uncommon for Committee
    investigations to involve multiple allegations and a pattern of misconduct, the sheer scope of the
    violations at issue here is highly unusual and damning. Third, the nature of the violations are
    fundamental ethical failings that go to the core of the legitimacy of the electoral process. And
    most significantly, Representative Santos’ fraud on the electorate is ongoing – he continues to
    propound falsehoods and misrepresentations rather than take responsibility for his actions.

    The ISC unanimously determined that the Committee’s duty to safeguard the integrity of
    the House and the interests of justice warranted the immediate disclosure of its findings.257
    Although the ISC’s findings of serious and pervasive campaign finance violations and fraudulent
    activity would merit the adoption of an SAV, proceeding down that path would risk substantially
    interfering with DOJ’s ongoing and active investigation of Representative Santos for similar
    allegations and would not be an efficient use of the Committee’s resources, particularly in light of
    the Congressman’s penchant for obfuscation and delay. Representative Santos declined nearly
    every opportunity he was afforded under the Committee’s processes to provide a rebuttal to the
    allegations,258 and his general attempts to blame his former campaign treasurer or feign ignorance
    or misreporting were not supported by the evidence. Representative Santos is entitled to due
    process in his criminal prosecution and will have his day in court. As a Member of the House,
    however, he must be held accountable to the highest standards of conduct in order to safeguard the
    public’s faith in this institution. The Constitution charges the House with policing the behavior of
    its own Members, and the House should take whatever action it deems appropriate in light of the
    ISC’s findings.

    Accordingly, pursuant to Committee Rule 19(g), the Investigative Subcommittee makes
    the following recommendations:

    1. The ISC recommends that the Committee immediately refer to the U.S. Department of
    Justice for such action as DOJ deems necessary the matter involving Representative Santos
    regarding his: knowingly causing his campaign committee to file false or incomplete
    reports with the Federal Election Commission; use of campaign funds for personal
    purposes; fraudulent conduct in connection with RedStone Strategies LLC; and knowing
    and willful violations of the Ethics in Government Act as it relates to his Financial
    Disclosure Statements filed with the House.

    2. The ISC recommends that the Committee authorize the release of materials in possession
    of the Committee and not available through any other source, to the U.S. Department of
    Justice, as necessary for any further action DOJ pursues as a result of the referral of this
    matter.

    3. The ISC recommends that the Committee adopt this report, and publicly condemn
    Representative Santos, whose conduct the ISC found to be beneath the dignity of the office
    and to have brought severe discredit upon the House.

    They don’t specifically recommend expulsion – they’re obviously pulling their punches because the GQP needs his vote.

    Grr…,
    Scott.

  97. 97.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Eolirin: How many of the people you are seeing in these pro Hamas rallies that have bloomed like mushrooms after a rainfall are voters? A few loudmouths are not representative.

    The election results last Tuesday showed that our coalition is good at winning elections.

  98. 98.

    Kay

    @Eolirin:

    FWIW I think US defense is also bloated and wasteful. I am tired of pouring money into police. I want to pour as much money at least into something peaceful and helpful. Like getting power to hospitals.

    I feel like I’m pretty good at listening to pols words and tuning out what is “boosted” etc. I just fucking cringe when I hear Biden now. I want him to actively boost humanitarian aid and a peace process. It’s good policy AND good politics. We have a political Party who are insanely hawkish on Israel. It’s the Republican Party. We do not lack insanely hawkish belligerents on this issue. We need Biden to offer a reasonable alternative, which, incidentally, is his entire political persona and selling point.He’s cutting into his strength with the public.

  100. 100.

    Soprano2

    @Eolirin: Yes, like how in the latest Bill Maher program I listened to Bill said Democrats are pro-terrorist and not one person on the panel pushed back on that at all. Evidently some will characterize wanting humanitarian aid for people in Gaza as being “pro Hamas”. I don’t envy Biden trying to thread this needle; there are no winners here except Putin, who is glad people aren’t paying as much attention to what he’s trying to do in Ukraine as they were before.

  103. 103.

    Eolirin

    @Another Scott: That they feel the need to thread the needle at all in this case, rather than just try to stall and sweep things as under the rug as they can means they see him as a political liability at least. I’m kind of surprised they went as strongly as they did.

    Given the way the way the previous expulsion vote went I don’t think it’d succeed anyway, though I’m pretty sure this would give the democrats that voted against it the last time the cover they were looking for to vote yes if it comes up again.

  104. 104.

    Soprano2

    @schrodingers_cat: I’m tired of them too. I don’t know what it is they expect from Biden in this situation – to tell Israel they have to sit back and take terrorist attacks like that? He’s been pushing and pushing for pauses and more aid for Gaza, and all the thanks he gets from them is “it’s not enough, we want a cease fire NOW!”.

  106. 106.

    Kay

    @Eolirin:

    I should note the numbers Kay’s talking about don’t directly correlate to voter intent; people being upset with Biden over this doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll be willing to vote for Trump or that they won’t be willing to vote for Biden.

    Agree, I too don’t believe Biden will lose Michigan because everyone of mideastern origin will vote for Trump. I think they’re pushing using the electoral clout they have, which is fine in my book. Everyone does it. But I think THIS goes to the core of Biden’s persona in a way student loans (or something) do not. He is the “good hearted” humanitarian President. He has to show some concern and urgency towards thousands of dead innocent civilians caught i the crossfire. Humanitarian aid polls at 80%. It’s what we agree on.
    We all hate Netanyahu and we all want hospitals functioning. It’s a start.

  109. 109.

    topclimber

    @Baud: I am shocked to learn that you do not read my posts. Don’t tell me I am pied! (Oh, wait, how could you tell me if you are not seeing this?)

    See comment #65 and link to AP story.

  110. 110.

    Eolirin

    @schrodingers_cat: The polling data suggests this is something that several of our core voting demographics care about and that the party is on the wrong side of. That doesn’t mean they aren’t going to still vote for Democrats when it comes down to it, but it does mean it poses a threat as a wedge issue and could effect results at the margin if things don’t improve.

    We also need to recognize that these numbers are getting progressively worse as Israel continues to act the way it’s been acting. This is completely untenable if the conflict goes on long enough.

  112. 112.

    Geminid

    @WaterGirl: I ran Rep. Spanberger”s announcement video by my Atlanta friend and he was very impressed by the production values. It made him feel like he’d “vote for her in a heartbeat.”

    I’m pretty sure Spanberger will win next year. She would be Virginia’s first female Governor.

  115. 115.

    Soprano2

    I listened to part of Biden’s speech last night and then the press conference. I have no idea how anyone could listen to that and still think Biden is mentally impaired in any way. They have obviously never dealt with someone who actually has dementia before. No way a person with that could even do what Biden did last night.

  119. 119.

    Eolirin

    @Kay: There is no reasonable alternative that is palatable to the Israeli government and they are our ally and Biden isn’t going to blow up their position like that in public. He has been actively boosting aid and things like proportionality, if you listen to the full extent of his remarks in the speeches he’s made on the issue, but he has no way to affect a sensible path forward and isn’t going to vocally condemn Israel or even remotely hint at them not being free to pursue a response to the attack on them any way they see fit.

    His support of Israel is genuine as well; even if he doesn’t agree with how the government over there is handling this, and I don’t think he is, he’s not going to do anything that might undermine their legitimacy. That’d have longer lasting consequences than the immediate conflict

    Edit: Oh to be clear I 100% agree it’s a problem, and for all the reasons you say, I just don’t think it’s one Biden can fix.

  123. 123.

    Citizen Alan

    @JAFD: Lol. I thought that’s what the song was about. For years until I finally had a chance to read the lyrics sheet!

  127. 127.

    zhena gogolia

    I must say, I went to a talk on the history of Israel and Palestine by a historian yesterday, in a packed lecture hall, and I was impressed by how calm, intelligent, and civilized the student questions were. I didn’t expect that.

  132. 132.

    StringOnAStick

    @Baud: My surfing teacher got quite hot about “what’s happening to kids” in Gaza.  I agreed and said there are bad actors in both sides (argh!) and used the argument that an eye for an eye makes everyone blind; that seemed to resonate.  Only tankie types can’t admit that there is bad, civilian harming behaviour from all sides in this conflict.  But you are right, this needs to go from hot to at least a simmer, and soon.

  133. 133.

    Soprano2

    @Baud: Yep. If you’ve spent time with someone who has dementia you can tell the difference between stumbling over or groping for a word and mental problems due to dementia. The press should be ashamed of themselves for giving any credence to it at all. I’m not as sure about TFG, because he does have some characteristics of people with dementia in his public speeches – the way he rambles and repeats things could definitely be a sign of it. TFG doesn’t repeat things just for emphasis like a politician does, he seems to repeat them randomly.

  136. 136.

    Baud

    @StringOnAStick:

    there are bad actors in both sides (argh!)

     

    It’s ok here. The two sides in the conflict are both right wing. Frankly, they’ve been feeding off each other to retain their hold on power.

    Israelis do seem to be on to Netanyahu. The one value add he has was the idea that he could keep Isreal safe. That’s now gone. Still remains to be seen whether the country can chart another path though.

  138. 138.

    geg6

    @satby: ​
     
    I have abnormally long roots on my teeth and, because the roots of my wisdom teeth had wrapped around my jawbone, they had to break my jaw to get them out. They gave me so much anesthesia, I think I only became coherent the next morning and didn’t know what happened until then. Then I had to eat applesauce, mashed potatoes and ice cream for the next five weeks.

  141. 141.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Rand Careaga:

    Actually, the so-called “ontological argument” was advanced by Anselm of Canterbury (as I recall learning in my own college days), and it bugged Thomas Aquinas too. He wasn’t buying it.

    That always sounded to me like it implied that people created God by imagining him into actual existence.

    (But Raymond Smullyan explained somewhere that the fundamental assumption that drove it was that “existence is a property”, which he said most medieval philosophers assumed–there were various things and some of them had the property of existence and others didn’t. They were assuming that a greatest possible thing was in the universe of possible things, identified that with God, and then claimed that since the property of existence made him greater, he must have it. I think a possible counterargument is just that that’s a category error.)

  143. 143.

    narya

    @Soprano2:@Eolirin: @Kay: What I heard in the press conference was a push for a two-state solution, support for Israel, and . . . in the background, a sense that there are other states in the region working on solutions. Which wouldn’t surprise me. One of Biden’s strengths is his ability and willingness to work in the background and let others get the glory; I just hope that’s what’s happening now. A couple of times he caught himself up short and basically said, I’m not gonna say any more about this so as not to get ahead of the process. I sure hope so.

  145. 145.

    StringOnAStick

    @Baud: Indeed, both sides are right wing.  I find it instructive that the folks who rail against the US for how we’ve interfered in the government of other countries (usually one of the reason they’d never sully their pure, precious vote by voting D),  want Biden to make Bibi and Israel come to heel right now, dammit!

  146. 146.

    Ken

    Lately I’ve been coming to the conclusion that polling is like the old joke about the candidates interviewing for a position — sometimes it is in accounting, sometimes statistics. They are presented with some data and asked “What conclusions do you draw from this?”  The candidate that answers “What conclusions do you want me to draw from this” gets the job.

    There’s some obvious differences, of course; there’s no exact equivalent of “push polling” in accounting, for example — or at least, not one that accountants openly advertise as a service….

  147. 147.

    StringOnAStick

    @geg6: Roots like that can sever the nerves into your entire lower jaw, one half per tooth, if extracted the old fashioned way, which is why the vast majority of dentists refer to oral surgeons now if they have any questions or just plain do that no matter what.  I worked in a lovely young college student who had no feeling in one half of her lower jaw and half her tongue because her small town dentist decided he was a one stop shop for all things dental.  That’s a lifelong condition she has now

  148. 148.

    Jay C

    @Another Scott:

    well, FWIW (bupkis, IMO), Rep. Santos did respond to the release of the Subcommittee’s report by announcing that he would not be running for re-election.

    Big whoop.

  150. 150.

    Ken

    @Matt McIrvin: That always sounded to me like it implied that people created God by imagining him into actual existence.

    “God created Man in his own image and Man, being a gentleman, returned the favor.” — Henry Rousseau

    Or at least, Google attributes it to Rousseau, and also (with small variations) to Voltaire, Wedekin, and Twain. Probably if I’d enabled image search I’d find posters attributing it to Einstein, Lincoln, and Yoda. I think I first heard it in a play, perhaps Miller’s The Crucible.

  151. 151.

    eclare

    @geg6:

    Whoa!  Mine were easy to get out, but I woke up from “twilight” about halfway through, which I still remember 24 years later.  And then they decided to up the dosage.  I finally walked out of the office, supported by my bf, and vomited all over Peachtree St in Midtown ATL.

  152. 152.

    geg6

    @schrodingers_cat: ​
     
    Plus all their running around quoting bin Laden’s “Letter to America” approvingly is not really a winning strategy. I’m at the point of a pox on both sides of the Hamas/Israel war, but these idiots here who are either plain ignorant or willing propagandists are who I save my ire for right now.

  153. 153.

    tam1MI

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I am the only one who is tired of these tantrum toddlers who find a new excuse for not voting for Biden in 2024.

    Last week it was because he was too old

    This week it is because he is not calling for a ceasefire.

    Next week it will be something else.

    I have had it with the emotional blackmail of cosplay leftists who vote 3rd party, sit out elections and only criticize the Dems. I think they are also deluded about their electoral heft. All they do is provide Rs cover and comfort.

    You are most certainly not the only one! I am sick to death of Cosplay Leftists doing their damndest to throw elections to Republicans every four years.

  156. 156.

    WaterGirl

    @Eolirin:

    His support of Israel is genuine as well; even if he doesn’t agree with how the government over there is handling this, and I don’t think he is, he’s not going to do anything that might undermine their legitimacy. That’d have longer lasting consequences than the immediate conflict

    Edit: Oh to be clear I 100% agree it’s a problem, and for all the reasons you say, I just don’t think it’s one Biden can fix.

    Could not agree more.

  157. 157.

    schrodingers_cat

    @WaterGirl: The protests are being taken over by those who hate Ds. Its like a replay of what happened in the George Floyd protests.

    I see this on Indian Twitter too. The latest fracas in the Middle East has become a reason for a wholescale Biden and America bashing. I smell a rat, a Russian one.

  161. 161.

    Geminid

    @Jay C: Santos had no chance of winning even his primary. Now I think it’s a question of when he resigns, not if. Prosecutors have him wrapped up tight, and he’ll have to take a plea bargain if he wants to get out of prison before he’s 60. Then the question will become: can he implicate other New York Republicans?

  163. 163.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Baud:

    Most proofs of God seem to be word play.

    I like Aristotle’s unmoved mover for its simplicity and lack of dogma.

    Still an atheist though.

  164. 164.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Baud:

    Most proofs of God seem to be word play.

    I like Aristotle’s unmoved mover for its simplicity and lack of dogma.

    Still an atheist though.

  165. 165.

    Baud

    @WaterGirl:

    I don’t know if they were on the stage at the same time, but apparently one of the groups that was involved in organizing the event invited Hagee to speak.

  166. 166.

    Jeffro

    Switching from Israel/Hamas, Santos, and polling a minute…the Post has up a piece on gun violence with some rather graphic pictures from AR-15-related killings.  Most of it does not show actual victims (with the exception of the Vegas country concert mass shooting, and then at a distance)

    The bloody classrooms and body bags in school hallways, I just…my heart goes out to those families, and to the people who had to deal with/clean up these horrific crime scenes (as well as tend to all of the horrifically wounded).

  168. 168.

    Soprano2

    @StringOnAStick: I had numbness in my jaw on the right side for years after the oral surgeon took my wisdom teeth out because that root was deep and he nicked a nerve in my jaw. He told me he did it. Eventually the numbness went away, but it took a long time.

  170. 170.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Baud: My concept of god is “everything that is, was, has been, will be, could be, or could have been.” I know that exists.

  172. 172.

    Geminid

    @WaterGirl: Schumer and Jeffries spoke from the same stage that John Hagee spoke from. But it’s not like they were sitting together on the stage; they spoke at different times, from the same podium.

    So I think saying they shared the same stage is one of those half-truths that is a half-lie. The people spreading this are weaponizing Palestinian suffering for the purpose of smearing Democrats.

  173. 173.

    WaterGirl

    @StringOnAStick: It’s apparently not authoritarian if you are doing it for the things they want.

    A whole lot of people aren’t very smart, and there’s a whole other set of people who aren’t discerning. Add that to the people who are evil, and there are a pack of things that can go very very wrong.

  176. 176.

    schrodingers_cat

    The people spreading this are weaponizing Palestinian suffering for the purpose of smearing Democrats.

    The toxic left’s actions always kneecap the Ds, they never have any smoke for Rs no matter what issue. I judge them by their actions. They exist to provide aid and comfort to Rs

    Their leaders know what they are doing. As for the followers it is ignorance combined with certitude of their purity.

  177. 177.

    WaterGirl

    @Jay C: I have to wonder if that wasn’t part of some secret deal between the committee and Santos.  We won’t recommend expulsion if you agree not to run again.

    The Republicans NEED Santos.

    It’s disgusting.  I wonder if Republicans today even understand the concept of being a statesman.

  178. 178.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    On an amusing note, Cillizza did some bullshit article whining about how he is bad at making and keeping friends.  I made fairly minor fun of him via Threads, and he got his ass a little chapped, which made my day.  I have learned that he actually seems to have a few stans, but I refuse to relent.

    If everybody hates you, it’s not a “them” problem, its a “you” problem.

  180. 180.

    cain

    @Baud: Indeed – he needs to address the humanitarian crises. It’s also driving strong anti-semitism globally. We do not want this to go full boil and create a sides.

    I do not want the U.S. dragged into a war of which there is no winners.

  181. 181.

    Leto

    This fits right in with the topic:

    Acyn@Acyn

    Roy: One thing. I want my Republican colleagues to give me one thing. One. That I can go campaign on and say we did. Anybody sitting in the complex, if you want to come down to the floor and come explain to me, one meaningful, significant thing the Republican majority has done.

    Nobody in the Republican Party wants to do anything other than performative theater, and you’re complaining about not having anything constructive to show your constituents? Biden/Dems passed substantial, meaningful legislation that will help millions, helped stop an economic downturn, and that every one of you dumbfucks voted against. The only “significant thing” you’ve done is continue to show to the American people that you are absolutely worthless, and don’t belong anywhere near the levers of power. You don’t even belong at a ticket taker position. I wouldn’t trust you not to fuck that up, and it’s just checking tickets.

  185. 185.

    Baud

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Probably.  I guess it depends on whether the did other flyers for white Dems that used the same image. But it gives them plausible deniability.

    ETA: As you know, the Nazi swastika is tilted differently from the Indian and eastern swastika.

  186. 186.

    WaterGirl

    @Geminid:

    So I think saying they shared the same stage is one of those half-truths that is a half-lie.

    Republican specialty!  Except when they are all lies.

    The people spreading this are weaponizing Palestinian suffering for the purpose of smearing Democrats.

    Yeah, that’s what SC was alluding to above.  People co-opting a legitimate protest (see George Floyd and Black lives Matter) in an attempt to undermine.

  187. 187.

    Baud

    @cain:

    Yes, as bad as things are, they’ll be 10 times worse if the conflict escalates. I thought I read that Iran said they weren’t going to get involved.

  189. 189.

    Matt McIrvin

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Very Spinozan.

    I figure one can define “God” in various ways that imply God’s existence, but that as these definitions don’t possess the attributes that most people traditionally assume when they say they believe in God (some kind of cosmic person who cares about human morality, plays favorites and responds to prayers), I don’t care to do that personally. But people are free to.

  190. 190.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: I know, I was being facetious. But sending any kind of swastika to a Jewish rep would be hate speech. And tweeting out a watermelon to Jeffries is no different. I am just tired of the red rose shenanigans.

  192. 192.

    Eolirin

    @Jeffro: YouGov polling is in fact exactly indicative of the problem being described, especially when you look at the trendlines; we cannot afford to lose the number of young people that we would lose if they were single issue voters on this, even if all they did was not show up. Now I don’t think they are, so, especially if this ends soon, we probably don’t lose that many people.

    But a single digit loss of young voters and Trump wins in 2020. 30% and growing dissatisfaction in that group, especially given that the dissatisfaction is highest amongst the people most inclined to actually support democrats, on an issue that people are emotionally reactive about is dangerous.

    I really wouldn’t think I need to explain how wedge issues work, but they’re not about majority opinion, they’re about driving down margins to the point where you lose. This absolutely has the potentional to be that kind of issue.

  193. 193.

    geg6

    @StringOnAStick: ​
     
    Oh, I had an oral surgeon doing the extractions. I wouldn’t have trusted my regular dentist to do it and neither did he. It was still outpatient, though. How wrapped the roots were was not completely clear on the x-rays though, which is why he had to keep me out much longer than he expected. I don’t remember a thing even after I had supposedly woken and my ex had to carry me out of the clinic and then into our house.

  195. 195.

    cain

    @tam1MI:

    You are most certainly not the only one! I am sick to death of Cosplay Leftists doing their damndest to throw elections to Republicans every four years.

    Their entire shtick is to give power to the GOP who will fuck things up and then there will be a glorious revolution and then everybody gets cookies.

    It’s actually very straight male white thinking because only straight white males could think revolution and think they’ll get past it unscathed.

  196. 196.

    Geminid

     

     

    @WaterGirl: Well, here I’m talking about bad faith critics on the Left, not the people who invited Hagee. That was due to an overly-inclusive and careless set of event organizers. They should have known that the inclusion of John Hagee would allow others to use guilt-by-association tactics to smear the whole enterprise and everyone who participated.

  197. 197.

    CaseyL

    There are definitely some manipulative techniques being deployed in these pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

    The rhetoric that ropes in the defiant contrarians who get a “Look at me! I’m so daring and transgressive!” thrill from spewing anti-Semitism is a tried and true one.

    There’s some weird blast-from-the-past stuff going on, too: the older marchers, who remember when they rode the Zeitgeist, want in on the action as well.  Being anti-war no matter what doesn’t look so hip when you’re screaming about defunding Ukraine, but marinating in anti-Zionist sentiment for 30-odd years makes screaming about defunding Israel an easy reach.

    Full disclosure: I despise Israel’s policies and treatment of Palestinians, and have certainly advocated for reducing the amount of money and support the US gives Israel.  But the aftermath of October 7 – seeing how quickly and happily the anti-Zionists went full metal anti-Semitic – has me rethinking that.  It’s useful to know that when push comes to shove, the Lefties are just as happy to bring back those greatest hits as the Righties are.

  199. 199.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Matt McIrvin: I could go on to say I believe life is creation’s solution for observing itself (otherwise all you have is a bunch of stuff spinning) and the will of god is nothing more than the sum total will of all life.

    ETA: Looked up Spinoza after I posted this. I see what you mean.

    I’ll add that as I read more, I disagree with Spinoza on matters of free will. That’s where major portions of “could be” derive from in my theory on the nature of god.

  201. 201.

    cain

    @Baud: Even they aren’t that foolish – besides if it leads to some Sunni folks getting killed – who are they to interfere – let it sort itself.

    But also, I suspect Israel would love to drag Iran into its war..

    It wouldn’t surprise me if Bibi is escalating so he can stay out of jail. He doesn’t give a shit if Israelis get killed.

  202. 202.

    schrodingers_cat

    @CaseyL: Great comment. I am both anti-Hamas and anti-Likud. I support Joe Biden.

    Rs are to right of Ds when it comes to supporting Netanyahu and his far right gang so why are none of the protests directed at Rs? That these showboats chose the DNC to stage their “peaceful” protest tells me that they have an agenda unrelated to the Israel-Hamas war.

  203. 203.

    Miss Bianca

    @H.E.Wolf:

    I wish I could help; but philosophy is a closed book to me, as music is to the tone-deaf.

    Ha ha, I – like our beloved Subaru Diane – recognize that quote! Well played!

  204. 204.

    Baud

    @cain:

    Bibi can’t be trusted.  It’s his own failures over both the long term and the short term that resulted in this mess.  The one hope I have is that the Isrealis are finally ready to move past him.

  205. 205.

    Matt McIrvin

    @cain: There’s this powerful dude idea that violence is the basis of everything, and if you’re not being violent or threatening violence you’re just wasting time; cut to the chase.

    It’s always been an odd political paradox that libertarians claim to be the furthest possible thing from authoritarians, yet in practice their ideas always seem to shade into authoritarianism of some sort. I think it’s their axiomatic insistence on a threat of violence as the basis of all politics and government–that nobody actually wants to cooperate with anyone, but they do because of an implicit threat. And fascists are always quick to jump to the explicit threat.

    But this kind of idea lurks around on the left too, and it’s always these sort of cosplay revolutionaries.

  211. 211.

    rikyrah

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I have had it with the emotional blackmail of cosplay leftists who vote 3rd party, sit out elections and only criticize the Dems. I think they are also deluded about their electoral heft. All they do is provide Rs cover and comfort.

     

    Completely. Nobody is going to beg them to vote. That time is done.

    They refuse to protest against Republicans…why is that?

  213. 213.

    Matt McIrvin

    @schrodingers_cat: The usual reasoning is that Republicans are like wild beasts, you can’t affect their behavior anyway, but Democrats are the ones who are SUPPOSED to be the good guys so that’s where you put the pressure. (“Murc’s Law”: “Only Democrats have agency.” Of course Murc himself is something of a further-leftist with a lot of criticisms of Democrats, but he’s mindful of this kind of thing at least.)

  214. 214.

    Geminid

    @CaseyL: I think it’s important not to let the excesses of self-described Palestinian allies affect my views of the situation of actual Palestinians and the imperative to better it. Some of these are very poor allies, I think.

    Same with some of Israel’s most vehement champions. They hurt Israel’s cause, especially when they try to weaponize it to advance their political aims. We will see a lot of that from Republicans in the coming months.

  215. 215.

    Eolirin

    @schrodingers_cat: Only Democrats having agency is so pervasive that it’s just part of the broader culture now.

    Not that there isn’t active infiltration and instigation on the part of bad actors, especially the Russians, but part of why this stuff works is because no left of the far right one expects the Republicans to do anything positive, ever.

    I do think it’s wrong to accept that framing, but it’s part of the fabric.

  216. 216.

    E.

    @Matt McIrvin: I think that was kind of Spinoza’s point. Logic can get you to “God,” but not to the God people keep alleging to be provably existent. You don’t get miracles from logic. He and others, right up through the 1800s, finally won the argument so handily that nobody much questions it any more.

  217. 217.

    Baud

    @Geminid:

    This.  It’s important not to fall into the trap of reacting to the worst advocates on either side.  That’s frankly exactly what happens in the Middle East itself, and a large reason why conflicts never get resolved.

  226. 226.

    sdhays

    I’m usually pretty cautious believing stuff written in Daily Kos diaries, but I think this is legit:

    In the final draft of the CR that passed the House yesterday, the rungs of the ladder got switched around to completely undermine the calendar that Johnson and the Freedumb Caucus had planned for which departments have to get funded by which dates—and they utterly lost what had been planned as a massive GOP advantage in agency funding priorities come January 2024.

    I checked reporting from NBC, and Defense and DHS, for example, are indeed scheduled to run out in February rather than January. So the Republicans’ negotiating position in January isn’t going to be advantageous. If the reporting that a sneak switcheroo happened at the last minute and surprised “Moron Mike” is accurate, well…chef’s kiss to whatever Republican legislative minion who doesn’t want to have to work through all of this shit while unpaid.

    Is he (this much of) a moron, or is he claiming to be so that the Freedumb Caucus doesn’t try to defenestrate him?

  227. 227.

    zhena gogolia

    @Matt McIrvin: Bullshit. If the protests are directed against Republicans, then that becomes the story in the media, and it hurts the image of Republicans rather than Democrats, as it’s doing now. It’s not going to change anyone’s behavior. The anger should be directed at the correct target, instead of hurting the only people who try to do anything to advance the cause.

  228. 228.

    Geminid

    @Baud: I noticed an ironic development in Iran’s anti-government protests last year: crowds would tear down the “Palestine Street” signs found in many Iranian cities and trample them. And a few weeks ago there was a big soccer match with a visiting Saudi team and a large Palestinian flag was unfurled in the stands. Many in the crowd jeered.

    This is because the repressive government has made pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel rhetoric a centerpiece, and bragged about the resources they have sent to Syria and Lebanon and also spent at home in order to confront Israel. The reaction among Iranians is not fair to the Palestinians, but it’s real.

  230. 230.

    Matt McIrvin

    @schrodingers_cat: I’ve been thinking a lot about Teri Kanefield’s musings on left criticism of the prosecution of Trump and the seeds of authoritarian thought that she could see in it. Kanefield argues that it’s important above all for liberals to preserve the habits of democracy, and that actually includes respecting the rights of people like Donald Trump as a citizen–everything needs to be legal and aboveboard.

    But then we have Adam Silverman here basically arguing that we’re going to lose our democracy because we haven’t acted quickly and decisively enough against the insurrectionists, and doing one of the things Kanefield criticizes, which is holding up states with less regard for rights of the accused as models.

    But Adam’s basic framework for what’s going on isn’t justice or democracy, it’s war: this is a (mostly) “non-kinetic” theater of World War III, and we’re losing.

    How does a democracy fight a war with an internal political movement? Well, we did it once, and it was bad, really bad. Basically the secessionists had to make the first move, half the country got smashed up and victory was in many ways uncomfortably incomplete.

    My thoughts on all this are still pretty unformed. Mostly I’m very anxious, but you all knew that.

  232. 232.

    sdhays

    @WaterGirl: I think they believe it involves caning colleagues (or anyone available) in the respective house chamber. Probably literal dick measuring too, as a modern innovation.

  234. 234.

    hueyplong

    @Eolirin: On the other hand, one could argue that the last few weeks the Republicans have been demonstrating that they have no agency.  So when anything of any kind is done, we can assume that one or more of their patrons (billionaires, Russians, etc.) has made an affirmative decision on some course of action and ordered the usual suspects to log off, put their phones down, and act to our detriment.

  238. 238.

    Misterpuff

    @Jackie:

    Chinese President Xi Jinping signaled that China will send new pandas to the United States, calling them “envoys of friendship between the Chinese and American peoples,” the AP reports.

    I blame Biden.

     

    We’re back to Panda Diplomacy, break out the Table Tennis sets.

  239. 239.

    CaseyL

    @Matt McIrvin:   It’s generally true that war should be a last resort – not least because you don’t really know who’ll win.  (The Allies weren’t doing very well for the first couple of years in WWII.)

    I agree that it feels like we’re treading water up to our nostrils right now.   I even admit to my own fantasies about a Civil War that cleans out all the fascists and bigots.  But it wouldn’t actually work out that way, and the ripple effect of a US Civil War not only on us, but on the rest of the world that really does depend on the US is terrifying.  A US Civil War would go global in no time.

  242. 242.

    WaterGirl

    @Geminid: Agree on that about the event organizers, for sure!  Kind of an own goal.

    edit: and maybe a teachable moment for our leadership to find out about that kind of thing before agreeing to speak.

  250. 250.

    Matt McIrvin

    @CaseyL: I’ve always assumed that if it comes down to an actual shooting war, we lose. While the military isn’t as politically homogeneous as one would think, they lean right. Now, they also have constitutional ideals of civilian control and official political neutrality drilled into them (for now), but if that means they just sit it out, that doesn’t develop to our advantage either, because cops and other non-regular-military armed entities are way worse. With “rando civilians with guns” maybe the worst of all.

    On the other hand, it sure doesn’t seem like the violent political right could organize a picnic, and that reduces their effectiveness.

  251. 251.

    Geminid

    @Baud: This past year I have started to get more interested in the region because of the war in Ukraine and the protests in Iran. One thing I take away is that Iran and Turkiye are very important countries. Their 85 million or so citizens are equal to Germany’s, and are much younger. They both have decent education systems and a fair degree of industrial development.

    Our relations with Iran have basically been hostile throughout the Islamic Republic’s reign starting in 1978. That’s been 45 years now, and I think they’ll remain bad until the Iranians succeed in toppling the men- and they are all men- who rule them.

    The Turkish Republic was founded 100 years ago, in the aftermath of the First World War. They have been Nato allies of ours since 1952, and field Nato’s 2nd largest army and third largest air force. They are also Nato’s only Muslim member, and I think that is important.

    US/Turkiye relations have been strained the last ten years, but a lot of this was caused by follow-on effects from Bush’s destructive Iraq War. Relations started improving after Presidents Biden and Ergogan met at the Vilnius Nato summit four months ago. I do not think the war in Gaza will set them back.

  253. 253.

    Ken

    @WaterGirl: Have we found the one thing that perhaps all BJ peeps can agree on?

    I’m sure there are others. Our support for the Baud! 20XX campaign is unanimous, as is, I suspect, our view of Marjorie Taylor Greene.

  256. 256.

    Citizen Alan

    @geg6:

     a pox on both sides of the Hamas/Israel war

    That’s been my position from the start. The Hamas/Israel conflict is an intractable problem, IMO, because the leadership of both groups have a mutually parasitic relationship in which they each want to exterminate the other side but also continually do things to strengthen the other side to the detriment of their own side to aid in recruiting people to their own side. Hamas’s terrorism drives Israelis into the “kill ’em all” camp, and the disproportionate response of Bibi et all drives Palestinians into the “kill ’em all” camp.

    And short of the US leading a UN peacekeeping force to invade and occupy Gaza and the West Bank in total violation of Israel’s territorial sovereignty (which will NEVER happen), there is nothing Biden can do about it except to lean on Bibi.

  257. 257.

    montanareddog

    @Manyakitty:

    and who do they think will do better? Give me a freaking break.

    The person who would have won the last Presidential campaign with 70+ % if only he had run – Johnny Unbeatable, of course.

  258. 258.

    Kay

    @Matt McIrvin:

    The usual reasoning is that Republicans are like wild beasts, you can’t affect their behavior anyway, but Democrats are the ones who are SUPPOSED to be the good guys so that’s where you put the pressure.

    Balloon Juice makes this incredibly complicated, and it’s not. Why do they get madder at Democrats? Because they either ARE Democrats or voted for the Democrats who are currently in power. It’s not about “only Democrats have agency. It’s about VOTER agency. The reason Arab Americans in the Detroit suburbs lobby Democrats is they voted for Democrats. They expect Democrats to take up their issues.

  259. 259.

    Kay

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I actually think some of the outrage comes out of the “kindly Uncle Joe the humanitarian” image that Biden had. If you bought into that his weak defense of civilians and hospitals is a real betrayal. He’s not who you thought he was. Bill Clinton was an asshole. Everyone knew he was purely tactical. Biden has presented an image of a person who cares about others lives and will take some political risks for peace!See: Afghanistan.

    Again- humanitarian aid is popular with everyone but the GOP base. Netanyahu is unpopular with everyone but the GOP base. Get on the side of the first and against the second and he’ll be on stronger moral and political ground. The protestors are RIGHT that the US should not be standing by while hospitals are attacked. They’re correct. That’s the only reasonable position to have. Biden needs to be there.

  260. 260.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Kay: I think the discussion may be talking about different groups of people. There are Democrats who are upset that the people they voted for aren’t acting in what they perceive to be their interest. And then there the people on the left who make a great show of not being Democrats or ever voting for Democrats (they are very visible online).

  261. 261.

    lowtechcyclist

    @schrodingers_cat:

    It was like a replay of Jan 6 but this time by our supposed allies on the left.

    Wait, all I’m seeing is a bunch of protesters on the front steps in front of a building, presumably the DNC.  They’re blocking the entrance.  So fucking what? Protests like that happen all the freakin’ time.

    Were they invading the building? Not that I could see.  Were they threatening anyone’s lives? Sure didn’t look like it.  Were they trying to assault anyone? Ditto.  Were they preventing some important governmental function from happening?  No, this was the DNC.

    So nothing like a replay of January 6th, thankyewverymuch

    ETA: Baud beat me to it by about 150 posts.

  262. 262.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: Oh please these same folks who surrounded the DNC yesterday were calling Biden senile just a week ago.

    They tried the Tara Reade BS in the run-up to 2020. I disagree that the DSA left are Democrats.

  264. 264.

    trollhattan

    @JAFD: Philosophy Day, you say? Then it is my duty.

    {ahem} Eeeeeee
    mmanuel Kant was a real pissant
    Who was very rarely stable.
    Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
    Who could think you under the table.
    David Hume could out-consume
    Schopenhauer and Hegel,
    And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
    Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
    There’s nothing Nietzsche couldn’t teach ya
    ‘Bout the raising of the wrist.
    Socrates himself was permanently piiiiiised.

    John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
    On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
    Plato, they say, could stick it away
    Half a crate of whiskey every day.
    Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
    Hobbes was fond of his dram,
    And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
    “I drink, therefore I am”
    Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed;
    A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he’s pissed!

  266. 266.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Didn’t you predict for months that white women would never vote to protect their rights?

    You’re more than happy to bash some Democrats and make dire predictions of electoral losses. Wrong predictions, as it turns out, but still.

    I get really fucking tired of people on this blog defining who is permitted and/o valuable in the Democratic Party. You know what? It’s divisive. It’s exactly what you all claim to abhor.

    It’s always been a loose, messy coalition that barely holds together. There are NO GROUPS who are disposable. It’s not a ranking system where the “most loyal” Democrats get the only voice. I care that Detroit Democrats are pissed off at Biden and the Democrats for their ridiculously unbalanced approach to this conflict. I think they are “real Democrats”.

  269. 269.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay:You are putting words in my mouth. I have never said those words.

    What I have  said that if even a small sliver of white women (2 to 3 percent nationally) flip to Democrats that would change the electoral landscape.

    You’re more than happy to bash some Democrats and make dire predictions of electoral losses. Wrong predictions, as it turns out, but still.

    Show me where I have predicted Democratic losses. I am one of the glass half full kind of commenters on this website. You are making up stuff about me. I didn’t expect that from you.

  270. 270.

    Kay

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Biden has dropped almost 20 points with younger/more diverse Democrats. It’s a problem because it makes a weakness worse- he was not strong enough among Democrats at the start of this thing. He can’t bleed any more Democrats. All the kowtowing to “independents” in the world won’t matter if he can’t get his base. It has to be plus/and. We need the base PLUS.

  271. 271.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Well, they just gave you Virginia. But just like every other time, you moved the goalposts. Now I guess it’s 3% NATIONALLY. Sorry. My bad. We’ll try harder to achieve membership in the Democratic Party. Maybe next time, ladies!

  273. 273.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: I am glad we won Virginia. I thank all those who voted D and everyone who is in Democratic coalition.

    Since you are making up stuff about me and putting words in my mouth. I am not going to respond to your baseless allegations.

  274. 274.

    hueyplong

    @Kay: Biden may have lost their support as of today, but next November those people will have a binary choice.  If they care about politics they won’t stay home, and if they go to the polls they won’t vote for Trump.  If Biden has disappointed them, there is probably a much more intense verb for what Trump has done since Nov 2020.

  275. 275.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @schrodingers_cat: No, she has a pretty good read on you.

    You’re bigoted about white women; your anti-left hobby horse is tiresome, divisive, dispiriting, and kinda reads as “I got mine, fuck your your pleas for peace and fuck your economic justice.”

  276. 276.

    Kay

    @hueyplong:

    I hope so. I can’t really get mad at them. Am I mad that my daughter is freaking out about attacking the hospitals and now witholds her (meager) donations to Democrats? No. I’m proud of her. She’s a medical professional and she’s right – we – the United States- need to supply the hospitals. It’s the goddamned least we could do. If we have 14 billion to send for weapons we can support their hospitals.

    I was not at all shocked that Israels massive defenses failed miserably. We pour 60 billion a year into Homeland Security and the godamned capitol was invaded right under their noses. More and more and more police is a bad investment. We don’t lack police.

  277. 277.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: One last thing, you are taking statistical analysis like a personal insult. I am a feminist too but your definition feminism has no space for me. I have nothing personal against you. I am done with this conversation.

  279. 279.

    gvg

    @Kay: I think there is a big problem with Americans waking up to how bad the Palestinian issue really is as a result of Hamas murdering a lot of civilians and taking hostages. I know Israel did not have to overreact, but they were going to and were intended to. There is a principle when dealing with bullies and violent killers, don’t reward bad behavior. On the one hand it is good that more people are finally noticing the situation, on the other, finally pressuring governments worldwide to do something either for the Palestinians or against Israel as a result of the massacre is really not a good idea.

    I don’t want to encourage our homegrown antiemetic’s either.

    Hamas doesn’t have good leadership so solutions can’t be the greatest. They don’t want peace, and I don’t remember them as being good at keeping their word. That means is will it be hard to negotiate with them.

  280. 280.

    hueyplong

    @Kay: I sympathize with your daughter on her chosen point. (We’re supporting a refugee family from the region so it’s not just talk.)  Biden is assuming responsibility for a lot of things while holding together a group that is diverse.  He’s going to disappoint each of his constituencies at one time or another while tending to other portions of our coalition or to what he and his advisors consider to be the common, national good and what tends toward the goal of supporting what’s right in general.  We’re not going to be happy with everything he does.  No one has ever figured out the Middle East and I don’t actually think Biden will make it be all good for everyone involved.  So he’ll disappoint to some extent.

    But we’re going to be thrilled with him compared to what Trump would have done, and people paying attention will agree with us on that point.

  281. 281.

    Matt McIrvin

    @gvg: this is the “they had 9/11 coming” problem, right? A lot of legit critiques of US imperialism in the wake of that could get no traction in the US because, come on, someone just destroyed the fucking World Trade Center and killed thousands of people, that’s the thing that makes you complain about us? And then the US behaved even worse.

  282. 282.

    zhena gogolia

    I’ve been contributing to and voting for Democrats for decades. I never expect them to do exactly as I wish on every single issue. That is impossible. They are the ONLY party even trying to do things in a just and equitable way, so they have my support.

    ETA: I might write to or call my congresspeople or the president to express my concerns about issues, but I would never publicly demonstrate against them or excoriate them.

  283. 283.

    siddhartha

    Ah yes, it’s a woman of color immigrant who just became a citizen that is bigoted against white women … This blog has a real white women problem (and an anti-trans one). Any conversation by a woman of color about white women as a voting demographic becomes subject to defenses of white womanhood (which itself reeks of a terrible racist history), as though women of color are personally attacking poor, defenseless white women who comment here and personally excluding them from being considered “real” democrats–as though we have that power. Awesome job “giving” us a victory in Virginia. Would have been nice if white women hadn’t voted for Trump and Youngkin in the first place, but what else is new when it comes to white women as a whole and their actual voting record throughout US history. I don’t comment here precisely because of this issue when these issues are my my areas of expertise! Who wants to be railroaded into babysitting particular white women’s sensibilities instead focusing on the issue of white supremacy (and reproductive rights are a part of that as well) and the complex ways it actualizes itself, even amongst allies and friends? That ain’t new either.

  284. 284.

    Matt McIrvin

    @zhena gogolia: I think there’s a generational split here: my attitude about Democrats being very pro-Israel has always been kind of “well, I don’t like it but what are you gonna do? They have to do it, not taking that position would kill them”.

    But nobody under 30 sees it that way.

  286. 286.

    Soprano2

    @zhena gogolia: I think Biden says as much about trying to help the Palestinians in Gaza as he thinks he can say without being characterized as a Hamas supporter. As I said upthread, I listened to Maher’s program from three weeks ago where he said Democrats are now seen as supporting terrorists and not one other person on the panel pushed back on that at all. Unfortunately, I think it’s all too likely that Hamas put their underground command centers under places like hospitals – it’s what I would do if I were them. I certainly wouldn’t put them in a place where it was easy for my enemy to destroy them.

  290. 290.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @siddhartha: No, see? It’s really okay when she generalizes on the basis of race with no nuance because…

    Also, is this a sock puppet?

    Everyone is a little racist sometimes. She isn’t immune, clearly. Democrats are generally better because they’re willing to have those conversations when someone is offended. Learn from the Democrats.

  291. 291.

    Brachiator

    @siddhartha:

    Would have been nice if white women hadn’t voted for Trump and Youngkin in the first place, but what else is new when it comes to white women as a whole

    Talking about white women “as a whole” is reductive and usually not particularly meaningful.

    and their actual voting record throughout US history.

    Especially during the periods in US history where women could not vote at all.

    These issues should not be forbidden, and I don’t think they are. If you have something substantive to say, bring it. It’s all important as we head into the election season.

  292. 292.

    StringOnAStick

    @WaterGirl: Innocent civilians is the problem in Gaza and Israel, both sides.  It’s a more concentrated version of what Putin is doing everyday in Ukraine, and the tankies support Putin in that, but somehow they only see one set of suffering civilians in the Gaza/Israel situation.  I understand why those 24 DSA members made a big deal out of leaving DSA.

  295. 295.

    StringOnAStick

    @Soprano2: Nerves can heal if not completely severed.  There is a reason a lot of dental offices are replacing their panoramic X-ray unit (the one that does a circle around your head, recommended every 5 years) with new units that are basically 3D CT scan machines that can amazing detail and image slices, like any CT or MRI unit can do.  With one of these you can be very sure where those nerves are and the relationship to the root of wisdom, or any teeth.  We discovered the very nearly occluded carotid artery of a patient with one of these where I used to work; that was a life saving discovery.

  297. 297.

    StringOnAStick

    @WaterGirl: I had a very intense discussion with a 60 yo female MD who announced that she was refusing to vote for “senile” Biden.   We both live in one of those districts that flipped from D to R last time while Biden won here, so we need her vote.  That discussion got rather heated, and then I spent hours putting together the information she demanded that I show her to prove that Biden was “doing anything on climate change or labor”.  FFS!  Her main information source?  The Intercept.

  298. 298.

    Matt McIrvin

    @zhena gogolia: See, I actually sympathize a little with the progressives who complain about that kind of argument as “blackmail” because it basically implies that the time to pressure your own party for concessions to your positions is… never, because the other side is always going to be worse. It’s basically what Tony Jay was saying about UK Labour.

  299. 299.

    OGLiberal

    @schrodingers_cat: Check out Dave Weigel on Twitter.  He was there and has video.  What I saw was groups of protestors – and, yes, they were blocking the doors – standing in circles, arms locked together.  Looked a lot like the old school civil rights protests.  These folks knew they were participating in civil disobedience and were willing to go to jail, even if most didn’t.  I wasn’t there and the Weigel video I watched was only two minutes but I didn’t see any violence.  There was some shoving – mostly by police – but it was not rough.  This was nothing like Jan. 6 and folks like Brad Sherman need to not feel like they need to overcorrect – or whatever you want to call – because of what the animals on the other side did on Jan. 6

    ETA: As for the Shifa hospital, the video with the IDF spokesperson showing “evidence” of a Hamas “command center” in the basement was very sketchy and not convincing at all.  I know Hamas does use civilian buildings sometimes for bad stuff but what they were showing us in that hospital didn’t look like evidence of that.  I don’t think the Dems and/or Israel want to get into “Iraqi soldiers tearing babies out of incubators in Kuwait” territory.

  300. 300.

    OGLiberal

    @schrodingers_cat: “I have had it with the emotional blackmail of cosplay leftists who vote 3rd party, sit out elections and only criticize the Dems.”

    I’m fine with them criticizing Dems.  I’m fine with them only criticizing Dems because Republicans don’t give a shit what they think and know they aren’t going to vote for them.  But the 3rd party/sitting out bullshit is just unacceptable, especially now with Trump.  This is a binary choice, folks.

  301. 301.

    wjca

    @sdhays: I think they believe it involves caning colleagues (or anyone available) in the respective house chamber. Probably literal dick measuring too, as a modern innovation.

    I’m betting MTG and Boebert end up duking it out for the top two places.  Because they’re so inovative, you know.

  302. 302.

    WaterGirl

    @StringOnAStick: I agreed with your first two sentences, but I don’t understand your last sentence.  Can you say more about that?  What 24 DSA members?  It may have been talked about here but I mostly tune out talk of the DSA.

  304. 304.

    Kay

    @siddhartha:

     This blog has a real white women problem (and an anti-trans one).

    Ah, yes. Back to my original sin- daring to defend feminists against an ignorant, unhinged attack on them by eddie.
    Hey- did eddie ever get back to us with that “feminist” scholarship they promised? Yeah, I thought not. That one you tube video they watched about “intersectional feminism” probably wouldn’t fill a whole post.
    Again- I was told repeatedly that “white women” (as a whole– the only way they’re ever discussed on this blog) would not vote for rights because they vote exclusively on race. That prediction was dead wrong.
    There are tens of millions of white female Democrats – they did as much to elect any Democrat as anyone else.
    I await eddies promised feminist post. I’ll be waiting a long time.

  305. 305.

    Kay

    @OGLiberal:

    Well, you all already announced that none of them vote for Democrats and if they do they’re not real Democrats but instead “cosplay” Democrats so why does it fucking matter what they say?

    You weren’t getting their votes anyway.

    The hunt for the Real Democrats continues! We know they’re not 1. white women or 2. young people who protest. Anyone else we can kick to the curb as not worthy? We better find some to replace the fake Democrats we kicked out because it was pretty damn close last time.

  306. 306.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Kay: Anyone else we can kick to the curb as not worthy?

    SC seems to want to give the police reform crowd the boot too.

  307. 307.

    Kay

    Bombing cities and then shutting down the hospitals is indefensible. Instead of fighting against me you-all should maybe consider whether you want to be part of defending this. The protestors are right. I hope they vote for Democrats anyway because it is surely true that Republicans are worse but on this? They’re right.

    I don’t think Joe Biden wants this as his legacy.

  308. 308.

    Kay

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation:

    Oh, absolutely. They’re OUT. One of them once said “defund the police” and every subpar, talentless Democrat used that as an excuse for why they lost forever after. I was glad to see Spanberger is running for governor. I hope she doesn’t blame that one guy who said “defund the police” if she loses like she blamed him for her close house race.

  309. 309.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Kay: I agree with you that Israel’s actions are and have been indefensible. This is not what Biden’s legacy will be, though. He’s not the king of Israel any more than he is the king of the US.

    Frankly, the time to be considering witholding weapons from Israel was 20 years ago, if not longer.

  310. 310.

    WaterGirl

    @Kay:

    I don’t think Joe Biden wants this as his legacy.

    Of course Biden doesn’t want this as his legacy.  I don’t think he wants this at all, regardless of his legacy.

    I am pretty sure, though, that Biden is choosing the least awful option at every turn.  In this case, I think that terrible options are his only options.

    Do you agree that that’s probably true?  Or do you think Biden has better options and he’s not taking them?

    And in case the tone is hard to read in my comment, I’ll just state that I’m not disagreeing, mocking, being snarky.  Just sincere questions.

  311. 311.

    Kay

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation:

    I love Biden and I’m disappointed. I really, really thought he would do the right thing. I know it’s hard! But he took a risk with Afghanistan! I want him to do a passionate defense of a ceasefire and humanitarian aid, paid for by the US. Billions. I want billions.

    Anyway. I’m a party person and a Democrat but I don’t defend Democrats on this to my outraged daughter or son – they’re right. If that means they don’t vote for Democrats then so be it. They’re their own people although one of them is, in fact, a “white woman” so obviously not a real Democrat anyway.

  313. 313.

    StringOnAStick

    @WaterGirl: Oh, there was an open letter from a think NY DSA members where 24 of them were officially leaving because basically of the drift of the DSA into the tankie direction is how I read it.  It was discussed here a few days ago.  I’ll try to find the letter for you.

  315. 315.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Kay: I’m not the sort to advocate for party loyalty for party loyalty’s sake. I do think it would be worth pointing out, before they finalize any voting decisions, what the alternative on offer is.

    @WaterGirl: And you’re right. It remains important now. I can’t pretend, though, that I don’t recognize it’s a bit of a bad look to make that one’s primary point of focus in the aftermath of an attack like they suffered from Hamas last month.

  316. 316.

    Geminid

    @Kay: It was more than “one guy” who said “defund the police.” One of the more famous Representatives, from New York City, repeated that slogan often, and she was not the only Representative who did. Rep. Ocasio-Cortez was still arguing with Barack Obama about it that December. Abigail Spanberger was right to raise this issue in the post-election caucus meeting.

  317. 317.

    wjca

    @Kay: I want him to do a passionate defense of a ceasefire and humanitarian aid, paid for by the US. Billions. I want billions.

    And your proposed method for Biden to get said billions approved by the current House would be what, exactly?

    On his past record, I’m not surprised that Biden isn’t going for performance.  He’s especially not going to do that if it gets in the way of doing something effective behind the scenes. Which, in diplomacy, is where effective action happens.

  318. 318.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: Raising the slogan as an issue and pointing out that, yes, it is problematic in some ways is fine.

    The impulse from the wrong breed of centrist to disparage any reform proposals and reducing it to a slogan is probably more harmful than activist use of the slogan. It tells a segment of the electorate their concerns just plain aren’t valid.

  319. 319.

    Manyakitty

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: why are we forgetting that there appears to be a lot of strings attached to the Israel aid. We are the ones driving the humanitarian efforts in Gaza. We are the ones holding Bibi and his henchmen back from turning Gaza to glass. Look at what’s happening behind the news.

    Yes, it’s bad, but it’s so much less bad than it would have been without Biden that I’m shocked people can’t see that.

    Realistically, what did you geniuses want him to do? Tell Israel to turn the other cheek?

    ETA: this is not aimed at you. Your comments make sense to me.

  322. 322.

    WaterGirl

    Popping in to say that we only need $750 more to complete the $5,000 angel match.  Matching donations up to $100.  

    The match thread is just one post over, if anyone’s interested.

  323. 323.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    Non-orthodox Jews are also a core Democratic constituency. They consistently vote for and donate to Democratic politicians and liberal causes. My Jewish friends are really in anguish over the Hamas attack. It was horrifying and the antisemetic attacks on campuses is also freaking them out. At the same time, what is happening in Gaza is absolutely sickening and unacceptable. This is 100% a wedge issue. Everyone is hurting.

  324. 324.

    Kay

    @Geminid:

    Ha! I knew they would be held responsible for the piss-poor performance of the NY Democrats. They should stop whining about Lefties and work on winning their elections.

    Luckily we kicked those icky cosplayers out of the Democratic Party so now we pour UNTOLD BILLIONS into police with no oversight and no results. Let’s send another 60 billion to the police so they can piss it away on drug war toys! Then they’ll love us! 

  325. 325.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Manyakitty: Hey, I agree with you. I’m not following details as closely as I have in the past. Still, I’ve seen enough to recognize the Biden administration is being more even-handed than any administration I’ve seen before.

    I doubt my dream result of America demanding its weapons back in exchange for any aid is viable, so I think what we have with Biden right now is the best we can hope for with our culture the way it is.

  326. 326.

    Kay

    @wjca:

    He doesn’t sound right to me. I mean that. Biden’s strength as a negoitoator is he lacks ego. He wants the deal and he doesn’t care who gets credit. But on this? He sounds like a belligerent douchebag who wants to bomb shit. I don’t care for it one bit.

  327. 327.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I respect the learned experience of the activists who adopted that slogan. It might actually apply to cities like Minneapolis and Portland.

    But politically it is a loser that plays right into Republican hands. And just because “centrist Democrats” called this out doesn’t mean they ignored a constituency, because I saw plenty of Black Democrats who thought it was a terrible slogan and a bad idea in itself. The people pushing that slogan represented themselves only, not a substantial segment of the electorate.

    And just who is this “wrong breed of Centrist [who] disparage any kind of reform proposal”? You can name names instead of attacking an abstract group of Democrats.

  330. 330.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: Eric Adams, Kyrsten Sinema, Joe Manchin; as far as elected folk. Bill Maher, Schrodingers Cat; the wrong breed of centrist is the class of people who think perceived extremism in our activists is more important than actual extreme actions by government officials.

    Everyone I listed criticizes the slogan without proposing a better slogan or showing any interest in reform proposals regardless of what slogan is used. If these people want ineffective police abusing the public, they should own it

    ETA: I don’t see why I should have to name names anyway. I mean to defeat an argument, a prevalent argument in the discourse, not some person.

  331. 331.

    Geminid

    @Kay: Well, you said it was “one guy” who used that slogan and I pointed out that it was in fact several Democratic representatives.

    I don’t like being contradicted either, but in this case you were wrong and I had to point it out because you were smearing my Congresswoman, and she is every bit as good a Democrat as you are.

    I suggest you ask Rep. Kaptur about Spanberger sometime. Or tell Rep. Kaptur how lousy a leader you believe Hakeem Jeffries is, and see what she thinks.

    And, Abigail Spanberger brought this up after the 2020 election, not after New York Republicans lost last year. Spanberger was was talking about Democrats like Xochitl Torres Small, Kendra Horn, and Joe Cunningham who lost, and ones like Lauren Underwood who barely survived the onslaught of Republican “Democrats are soft on crime” advertising that year.

  332. 332.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: barely survived the onslaught of Republican “Democrats are soft on crime” advertising that year.

    This argument succeeds because every half-assed centrist jumps in front of a microphone whenever the topic comes up to say “they sure are, but not me!”

    Just the usual right flank of the party deliberately weakening the party to make themselves look better in the eyes of Republicans real Americans.

  333. 333.

    Kay

    @Geminid:

    I don’t know why anyone wants to be gov of VA. You can’t get anything done in one term anyway.

    The term limit is kind of ridiculous :)

  334. 334.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: But these arguments come down to actual people. And Kyrsten Sinema, Joe Manchin are just two outliers among 50 Democratic Senators, and Eric Adams is one of scores of Democratic mayors. I think you are complaining about a problem which might exist in the abstract but which is not in fact a Democratic Party problem.

  335. 335.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: There is one President and he did it too, during the State of the Union of all things. It was the one time he really angered me since he took office.

    Yeah, this is absolutely a problem all the way from powerful elected Ds to the centrists’ own activist set. Everyone constantly being on the lookout for a Sista Souljah moment has been and will continue to tear apart the party while the perfidy of actual officials gets ignored.

  336. 336.

    Geminid

    @Kay: My theory about Virginia’s one term limit for governors is that the conservative establishment knew that any if any populist ever got elected, they could never never make headway against the entrenched interests in one term.

    But Governor is still a meaningful job here, and the one time this century that Democrats controlled the General Assembly and had a Democratic Governor, from 219 to 2021, they got a lot of good work done.

  337. 337.

    Kay

    On Tuesday, Manzano and six other women joined an ongoing court challenge to Texas’ abortion laws, bringing the total number of plaintiffs in the lawsuit to 22, including two doctors. The new plaintiffs, like the other patients on the lawsuit, allege they were denied abortion care in Texas for their medically complex pregnancies, including cases where the fetus was not expected to survive after birth. The suit, filed by the Center for Reproductive Rights, claims the state’s near-total ban on abortion violates their rights under the Texas Constitution.

    It keeps getting bigger. Eventually judges will realize that these bans are impossible to apply without killing some women. Anti abortion religious and their politicians cannot micromanage “health of the mother” – they cannot write a state statute that detgermines medical care. It has to be left up to women and physicians.
    Health of the mother is the whole ball game. This is no longer even about abortion. It’s about medical care during pregnancy.
    It is AMAZING to me that the anti abortion movement did not anticipate this. They know so little about womens lives.

  339. 339.

    Geminid

    @Kay: Has Adams come out against all immigrants, or just the ones that Texas is busing in?

    In any event, New Yorkers will vote on whether or not they still want Adams in 2025. Ranked choice voting will help the strongest challenger. In 2021, Adams won a 32% plurality in the first round, but barely squeaked by once all the choices were distributed. Under the old system, Adams would have faced a runoff because he did not get to 40%. He might have lost to Kathy Garcia in that event.

  340. 340.

    wjca

    @Kay:  I still can;’t get over that NYC has a virulently anti immigrant mayor. WTF people. What are you doing?

    I’m a long ways away.  But I would be willing to bet that Adams didn’t make being anti-immigrant a major feature of his campaign.  And his opponents, assuming they were aware of his views on the subject**, didn’t make an issue of it.

    ** Perhaps oppo research isn’t a major feature of campaigns at that level.  (C.f. George Santos)  But it ought to be.

  341. 341.

    Ramona

    @narya: I love philosophy but find it very difficult. I did bring up Wittgenstein’s observation to the effect that language is used mostly to lie when some decades ago, my partner and I were watching a Sunday show and people kept referring to we “citizens” as “taxpayers”. Calling citizens taxpayers makes consumer expectations primary over moral considerations. This is indeed an insidious attack on the democratic mindset and also ahistorical as the country was founded long before income tax was introduced.

  342. 342.

    CaseyL

    @siddhartha: 

    If you’ve been here on BJ long enough, you’ve seen some ugly shit happen when someone’s bigotry gets triggered. We very briefly had a transgender front pager. The rage that person provoked from self-described liberal feminists was shocking and nauseating. That person no longer posts here, because why put up with such abuse?

    We’re a touchy lot. Quite a few of us respond to any challenge of our opinions and/or self-regard with venom. Sometimes it isn’t political; more often, I think it’s ego. How dare you question what I say?

    I hate to see it here, but people are so worn down from nearly a decade of constant rage and fear, it’s like they’re all nerve ends.

  344. 344.

    OGLiberal

    @Kay: I think you misread what I wrote.  Republicans don’t care if people on the left crticize them because those people on the left aren’t going to vote for them anyway.  So, better for the left to pressure and criticize Dem politicians – the folks who do/should care about what the left thinks/feels – than waste time yelling at MAGA assholes.  What I can’t fucking stand is people on the left who sit out elections or vote for Jill Fucking Stein.  You vote for the Dem….full stop. Vote for whatever Dem you want in the primary but never, never vote for the Republican.  Those days are over- even the most reasonable Republican shouldn’t get 1 Dem vote and nobody who considers themselves a Dem or on the left should stay home or vote for somebody like Cornel West.  This is not the time for that.

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