“Hey, let’s menace members of Congress, I’m sure that after 1/6 that will go great!” https://t.co/lRqqHvEzXo
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) November 17, 2023
Biden called in to a meeting of DNC and campaign staff today and “expressed appreciation to law enforcement who kept everyone
inside the DNC safe last night,” including members of Congress, White House says. https://t.co/8fpyJaSWhk— Jennifer Jacobs (@JenniferJJacobs) November 16, 2023
Fifteen minutes of fame — at least among their equally ill-informed peers. Per the local paper (the Washington Post):
At least one person was arrested when demonstrators calling for a cease-fire in Gaza “illegally and violently” protested outside the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee on Wednesday night, U.S. Capitol Police said.
Lawmakers who were inside the building in Southeast D.C. for a fundraiser said on X, formerly Twitter, that Capitol police evacuated them from the building. Capitol Police said that all members of Congress were evacuated from the area.
Demonstration organizers said at least 100 participants suffered injuries after being pepper-sprayed and pushed by police. Six officers suffered injuries after being pepper-sprayed and punched, police said on social media.
Organizers for Jewish Voice for Peace Action, which describes itself as the largest progressive Jewish anti-Zionist organization in the world, said protesters arrived outside the DNC building at 430 South Capitol St. SE about 7 p.m. after a candlelight vigil at 3rd Street and Maryland Avenue SW…
Capitol Police spokespeople could not be reached for comment, but the agency said on X, formerly known as Twitter, that “our officers are working to keep back approximately 150 people who are illegally and violently protesting in the area of Canal Street and Ivy Street, SE.”
The demonstration was one of several across the nation since the attack on Israel by Hamas on Oct. 7 and Israel’s blockade and recurring strikes against Gaza.
‘Jewish Voices for Peace Action’ is, to say the least, extremely sketchy — I’m glad the Capitol Police defused their attempt to incite violence.
Major props to @daveweigel, who did what great reporters do in that fracas outside the DNC. He reported what happened and then defended the truth against a torrent of instant misinformation.
— Charles P. Pierce (@CharlesPPierce) November 17, 2023
Video w/ context from one of the groups protesting. https://t.co/7LPqxDUVq7
— David Weigel (@daveweigel) November 16, 2023
There was a vigil nearby; when it ended, protesters walked to the DNC. A small group was already protesting at one entrance, but the protesters, surprising the police, moved around them and ran to block the main and other entrances. https://t.co/fSGndYleZX
— David Weigel (@daveweigel) November 16, 2023
The mid-October sit-in at the Cannon rotunda didn't get this reaction, but the tactics on Wednesday – blocking entrances to DNC, resisting police as they pulled them off – have been roundly denounced by Dems.
— David Weigel (@daveweigel) November 16, 2023
You have the Constitutional right to peaceably assemble and protest. But blocking all entries to a building with multiple members of Congress in it, protected by Capitol Police officers who have lived through January 6 is putting you and other innocent people at risk. /2
— Sean Casten (@SeanCasten) November 16, 2023
I am grateful for the USCP’s professionalism and that all were safely evacuated. I’m also keenly aware that it could have been much worse. Americans have a right to assemble and protest. But PLEASE do so at a safe distance and respect local police orders. /fin
— Sean Casten (@SeanCasten) November 16, 2023
re this House lockdown – the DNC is two blocks from the House office buildings. SOP to do this if there's a protest nearby but if you were on the House side you couldn't even see this protest down the street. pic.twitter.com/GbHVnaRzHW
— David Weigel (@daveweigel) November 16, 2023
Dem leadership releases statement on the protests last night at the DNC pic.twitter.com/sPuF07QcrY
— Tal Kopan (@TalKopan) November 16, 2023
Worth putting up one last explanation here: I was responding to a polite, pedantic tweet questioning whether "the building was surrounded." Protesters were strategically blocking the entrances, but there were not enough protesters to entirely encircle the building. pic.twitter.com/bET7da6nCM
— David Weigel (@daveweigel) November 16, 2023
Baud
I didn’t realize the entrances were blocked.
Interesting that six officers were injured but only one person was arrested.
prostratedragon
So, I guess, those inside who wanted to leave were free to craah through the windows to avoid the nonsurrounding crowd.😶
satby
The blog is acting funky again. This post wouldn’t open at first.
As to the protest, blocking exits is illegal for safety reasons. So they should have expected to get arrested.
WCK sent food trucks into Gaza overnight, in case anyone wants to send donations their way.
satby
And what’s up with the b.s. TEMPLATE posts overnight. WG deliberately pre-empting AL with a canned first paragraph post?
Baud
@satby:
?
I only see one post before this one that was posted four hours ago.
Steeplejack
@satby:
WTF? The “template” posts appear to be an effort to give the overnight crowd a fresh place to comment, with a starter question or idea. The previous posts were at 7:49 and 8:40 p.m., the latter being the Ukraine post, not generally regarded as an “open” thread.
And none of these preëmpt Anne Laurie from publishing whatever she wants whenever she wants. There is no quota system.
So what exactly is your problem?
satby
@Steeplejack: @Baud: oh, never mind. I always thought late night posts were fairly topical and not cookie cutter prewritten stuff, but if everyone’s fine with that, ok.
Steeplejack
@satby:
All too often the reality was no late-night post at all. Anyway, the “cookie cutter” post is open, so you can feel free to bring up whatever weighty topic you want
ETA: And why would you think WaterGirl is “preëmpting” Anne Laurie?
Baud
@satby:
I’m usually asleep so I don’t care. We only have three people who do regular front page posts here, and AL is the only one that searches the tubes for a variety of info to post, so options are limited for the insomniac crew and West coasters.
satby
@Steeplejack: I was instructed to scroll past, so I do.
Steeplejack
@Baud:
I think that’s a little unfair.
Frankensteinbeck
About the ‘vermin’ thing:
As bad as Trump has always been, he has stepped up the rhetoric lately. I think there is a reason. I think with the failure of his Perry Mason moment and the tactics since, it is finally becoming real to him that he’s going to lose his business empire. He’s going to lose his fortune. He’ll be down to the PACs and they can’t keep up with his legal fees.
This is Trump decompensating.
Baud
@Steeplejack:
It’s not a criticism. WG does mostly fundraising, site admin, and more casual threads. BC does essays on particular topical issues and stories in her personal life, and never posts in the middle of the night. They each bring something different, but only AL regularly brings us diverse info from media and social media.
Steeplejack
@Baud:
WaterGirl does post on hot political issues of the day, but I see your point. She doesn’t cast as wide a net as Anne Laurie does.
Baud
@Steeplejack:
WG does, but it’s not frequent.
Steeplejack
@Frankensteinbeck:
It could even be that, although Trump may still think he has a way through, he’s realizing that the government is not going to fold like all of the small contractors and real estate rivals that he wore down in the past.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I was trying to tell you guys yesterday. But I got shouted down and called names in that thread 🧵.
satby
Interesting article here, hopefully not paywalled:
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
You posted a video that looked like a normal protest to me. If you mentioned that all the entrances were blocked, I missed it.
something fabulous
@satby: Sheesh. Seems pretty belligerent! If you’d prefer more substantive content late at night, perhaps you can help find us another front pager willing to help work those hours? And if it’s just the format that bugs you, why not ask her about it directly? Why assume bad intent? Sheesh.
Baud
@satby:
People can’t spend all their time talking about the violence they want to inflict without eventually actually doing it.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: It was a link to a whole thread IIRC. I was actually referring to other commenters who ganged up against me for not being worshipful enough of my supposedly progressive betters.
I am thinking that perhaps it is time for me stop commenting here.
something fabulous
@satby: Super-interesting! thanks for sharing it. Like, before he was even elected, wasn’t it, the thing about don’t be too nice to “them” when putting them in the police cars? Just a constant egging-on. And everyone showing off their guns in their election ads: definitely NOT both sides. And should be tied back to him, I agree. It’s not just the coarsening and increasing vulgarity, though it is that too.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
I can’t see threads on Twitter anymore. Only the linked tweet. I just watched the video at the link. I usually don’t even click on links, but I did in this case.
I don’t think that I would compare this to J6, but blocking egress from the building is definitely something that can’t be allowed.
I certainly hope you will keep commenting here. It’s good to have a dissenting voice.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: Please don’t stop commenting.
satby
@schrodingers_cat: I often think the same.
NobodySpecial
The cynic in me wants to wonder where this Capitol police was on 1/6. They’re awful diligent about arresting dirty hippies.
Princess
My hunch is that as these protests are ramping up, it’s going to turn normies who are concerned about Palestine off. I was reading about the people whose cars blocked the Bay bridge yesterday and who claim to have thrown their keys in the Bay. My experience with Americans is that protests of that kind do nothing but turn people off.
evodevo
@something fabulous: Well, Trumpy is just the end result of years of this stuff…don’t forget Caribou Barbie’s “target ad”..back in 2011…https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sarah-palin-criticized-over-gabrielle-giffords-presence-on-target-list/
satby
@NobodySpecial: Well, five of them are dead.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: @zhena gogolia: Thanks. The blog’s ” progressive” commenters ganged up against me, misrepresented what I was saying. I got called divisive, a bigot against white women, compared to Bill Maher and so on.
Not one other regular commenter had my back. A lurker whose nym I didn’t recognize did.
I don’t need this hostility in my life. If that’s what the BJ commentariat thinks of my comments, its time for me to stop commenting. These years since Trump came on the political scene have been an eyeopener for me.
@satby: Yeah the posts on the FP are not what they used to be, And so many of the old regulars have moved on. AL still rocks.
The only reason I continued to comment is because of the friends I thought I had made here. I am not so sure about that anymore.
Baud
@NobodySpecial:
While security on J6 was inexcusably lax, the notion that the Capitol Police didn’t engage the MAGA horde is not remotely accurate.
ETA: What satby said too
evodevo
@NobodySpecial: You don’t get beaten half to death while “not engaging”…did you somehow miss Michael Fanone’s J6 testimony? Or any of the other Capitol Police/DC Police members accounts? OR the countless videos?
Spanish Moss
As an east coaster who goes to bed early and wakes up very early, usually before On The Road arrives, I appreciate the late night posts because they are actually my early morning fare. AL and WG are both great, I see their posts as complimentary rather than conflicting. Thanks AL and WG!
Princess
Wow, people are cranky this morning. I’m kind of cranky too, tbh.
lowtechcyclist
@schrodingers_cat:
If it was a link to a Twitter thread, Musk’s comments the other day about Jews driving anti-white hatred finally pushed me over the line. I don’t go there anymore.
Baud
Something to look forward to.
Scout211
If you wondered how George Santos would respond to the ethics investigation report, he has spoken. And his response seems to be very similar to TIFG’s approach to defending himself in the public. Or more accurately, going on offense and accusing the accuser of being dirty. Link
Another Scott
@schrodingers_cat: Your perspective here is appreciated. Don’t leave.
We don’t have to read and respond to everything here, and some people are cranky, and some people just have raw nerves about some things no matter how clearly we try to express them. We don’t know what others are going through IRL unless they want to tell us. (And often they shouldn’t.)
We don’t have to like everyone here to get and provide value. Honestly, the place would be very boring if we all agreed all the time. Bring out the pies, if necessary.
Hang in there and have a good Friday, everyone.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ksmiami
@Baud: I for one will be voting for Primordial Soup – 2028!
Michael Bersin
I just woke up (for the second time). Anything going on?
Baud
@Michael Bersin:
Pretty quiet.
schrodingers_cat
@Another Scott: It was not one just one comment or two. I have a thick enough skin for that. It was a relentless onslaught of misrepresentation and outright personal attacks by more than one commenter.
I need a break. I am not white enough or “progressive” enough for this blog.
Baud
@Ksmiami:
Evolution reboot!
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
I would miss you, but do what’s best for yourself and your health. I take breaks, and it helps.
Scout211
And TIFG immediately went on an angry tirade after the appellate judge placed a stay on his gag order.
Least surprising news of the day.
sab
@schrodingers_cat: Please don’t stop commenting here!
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
Why don’t you just say you have a problem with me? With what I said?
You can’t tell me people on the Left of the Democratic Party are divisive and spend all your time bashing people on the Left of the Democratic Party! You’re divisive too, then! You don’t get to determine who is in the Democratic Party and who is not. It’s not an exclusive club with loyalty tests and tiers of membership. If you disagree with or just don’t like some member of the coalition you just announce they’re not real Democrats, or are somehow less valuable as voters. One vote is one vote. 1. They’re all the same.
RevRick
I appreciate how Rep. Casten framed the issue of how the protest was handled in terms of intent, and how the Capitol Police had no way of divining it except from the actions to block the doors. Their first obligation is to protect the members of Congress, and we must allow them to err on the side of caution.
On a more humorous note, evidently America does run on Dunkin’.
Kay
I wish a Democrat or some Democrats would specifically denounce the raid on the hospital. I don’t know how one defends that. They need to keep troops out of the hospital so people can be treated. I don’t think this is a hard call.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@schrodingers_cat: I didn’t read all the comments as yesterday was a pretty busy day for me. I don’t think that negative stuff about you. You bring a different perspective, and that’s good. This conflict in Israel and the protests related to it is one I’ve mostly avoided weighing in on. I sympathize with people on both sides and also think Hamas and Bibi are vile.
Ksmiami
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Agreed 100 percent- I’ve also said that Israel’s survival long term is going to be difficult but it will be impossible with Bibi at the helm.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, … Foxes in Love (via Mastodon).
🤪
Cheers,
Scott.
Kay
I feel like we were told Netanyahu was somewhat hemmed in by a “war council” of some kind so we would get fewer inflammatory (and dumb) decisions, yet we just got the hospital raid. Is the theory here that it would be much worse if Netanyahu were not hemmed in? Raids on hospitals are pretty bad.
catclub
That was not what Nobody said. There was a Black lives matter peaceful protest a bit before the Capital Invasion on J6, and for BLM there was overwhelming police presence.
Tony Jay
Lawks a’Lordy but this thread has an extremely apposite title. Positively precognitive. Haven’t heard this much unwarranted foot-stamping since Michael Flatley lived upstairs.
Anyway, those protestors might have meant well in the average, but as ever there are performative shitstirrers out there who really want to give the Media and the Opinion Moulders what they crave, and to hell with what it does to the cause they’re supposedly representing. I bet the morons who came up with the FA part of those shenanigans were nowhere in the vicinity when FO happened.
Over here, I was chatting to my MP this morning and he was filling me in on some of the behind the scenes bullshittery and bullying Sir Starmer’s goons deployed to try and prevent those 54 Labour MPs from backing the SNP’s ceasefire motion. We’re at a function with him tonight so I’ll either try to get him a bit drunk and interrogate him or just get the whole story out of his awesome Office Manager.
Ken
@Scout211: I “predicted” yesterday that Santos would use the TFG defense, that his prosecution was politically motivated. Maybe I’m cut out for punditry — though I’m not sure if that’s a good thing.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
To be clear, I don’t care if you vocally dislike and oppose the Left of the Democratic Party or Left-leaning voters – fine with me. I just object to insisting this is somehow not “divisive”. Of course it is. It’s exactly as divisive as the Left of the Democratic Party opposing the center or right. I’m actually fine with divisions. We’ve always had huge fights within the D party and we always will. It’s a very broad coalition. We disagree on a lot.
TS
@Scout211:
Trump really wants his “enemies” to be attacked – and then it is the attackers who do the jail time – I find the Judges who allow him to continue to attack individuals who are doing their jobs irresponsible & definitely working with one rule for trump and one for everyone else.
That his supporters don’t see what is happening to those who fight for trump is beyond understanding – or do they simply ignore what is happening to their fellow cultists.
Ken
@Scout211: I’ll be highly amused if the appellate judge now announces they’re reversing the order, with a brief note that TFG had confirmed the necessity of the gag order.
Another Scott
@Kay: I think that Biden and Blinken have worked very hard behind the scenes to try to limit the damage and contain the conflict. There’s really no upside for the US and Israel as long as it continues.
That said, Hamas’s explicit policy is to maximize casualties to create outrage against Israel. I don’t know the extent of the tunnels, and I don’t know if the casualty numbers are accurate, and all the rest – I am not there. But Hamas, like all of humanity, fights outside of the “laws of war” when they take on a stronger foe – looks at Lexington and Concord… And Israel, like all of humanity, isn’t going to put hospitals off limits if they think that there are fighters and arms in the area. It’s part of war.
tl;dr – Israel needs to stop soon, but may not given Bibi (and Hamas).
Peace and comfort to the Innocents.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kay
@Another Scott:
People keep saying this, but Biden and Blinken have had no problem publicly stating absolute support for everything Israel has done and presumably will do. I’m asking for some measure of public support for humanitarian intervention/ assistance and if that includes an express or implied criticism of Israel’s tactics, well, maybe it should. Why is one “behind the scenes” and the other loudly public? 80% of this country supports humanitarian assistance for innocents caught in the bombing. It should be public. IMO it sounds lopsided to people because it is lopsided. If the assumption is it is LESS lopsided privately or “behind the scenes” well, what are the public supposed to do? Mind read? Why not just say it?
Scout211
@Ken: It has already been set for a full appellate review but I hope you are right.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Princess: Just yesterday, I was thinking that people are crankier than usual. Here, yes, but all over the place really, maybe including the Rs threatening to beat one another up (though I get that one).
I saw an article this morning suggesting that the country was traumatized by the pandemic and trauma doesn’t just go away when the situation ends. Maybe that underlies some of our national tension. Or maybe it just intensifies it.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@lowtechcyclist: Scalzi said the same thing this morning on his blog. He’d already reduced his twitter usage to professional announcements, but he’s done until someone else owns the site.
Gvg
@schrodingers_cat: it’s always up to the individual but I didn’t think yesterdays thread was all that angry with you, they just didn’t agree. This morning you said a little more, that I did not pick up on yesterday so maybe you didn’t write clearly enough that someone else could get all your meaning. It’s hard to write clearly. I can’t write as well as I think and sometimes I happen to read my own comments later and realize I really didn’t get my thoughts across. There is a reason the front pagers get to write. Practice is the only solution though.
I think the twitter links appearing differently for different people because of Musk is a problem. I don’t generally click links. Old habit because things load so slow and I hate video. Everyone seems to be different on their habit about links and such.
Soprano2
@schrodingers_cat: I hope you don’t leave, but I understand if you want to take a break. I don’t align with everything here, either, which is sometimes hard. One thing I think is that the white women who are here don’t vote for Republicans, so it’s hard for some of us when you keep blaming them for TFG and his ilk even though we know you’re not talking about us specifically. It’s white married women who still vote for Republicans, actually – I think single white women vote for Democrats. I live among the TFG-voting people, so I try to understand it, but I have to admit that mostly I still don’t. What I’ve said from the beginning in 2015 is that he hates the same people they hate, and he gives them permission to hate them openly, which is what they want. I think that’s still true and sums it up pretty well.
Another Scott
@Kay: I’m hearing it publicly too.
Cheers,
Scott.
Soprano2
@Kay: I think Israel doesn’t care what the rest of the world thinks about what they do at this point. It’s the same behavior that we saw here after 9-11. I’m not sure what we can do about that. I think without the war council long-term it would be even worse, although attacking hospitals is terrible. The thing is, I totally believe that Hamas would try to protect themselves by putting a command center under the hospital – it’s what I would do if I were them. It’s a terrible situation for everyone.
Chief Oshkosh
@Kay: I _think_ (dangerous word!) that the idea is that the raid was better than simply leveling the hospital with bombs and missiles.
So far, it appears that the IDF haven’t found the tunnels and large arms storage under or in the hospital that they said were the reasons they had to attack the hospital. Of course, fog of war, early days, etc. I have noticed, though, that the IDF spokespeople onsite are getting pretty snippy with reporters who are asking the obvious questions.
There’s two other ongoing disasters AFAIC. The Israelis are now going to pound the south while simultaneously their IDF spokespeople are saying to reporters that the south is safer than the north. This is technically true, but it is an extremely cynical, almost evil, thing to say. I suspect that that one statement will lose them an a lot amount of support worldwide if it gets much more airtime. It’s a given that you can’t trust Bibi, or rather, you can trust him to be the most corrupt, inept shit in the area. But when the IDF begins to be seen as inept and evil, Israel is going to have a much worse problem.
The second disaster is the starvation that started and will get worse (gradually, then suddenly?). With the Israelis announcing last night or this morning that food and aid will be entirely blocked, they are going to alienate even more of the world.
So I guess really it’s four disasters. The deaths and miseries from the south being leveled and, second, the starvation of a population, each accompanied by a massive loss of support for Israel.
Like many, I have no idea what’s really going on and no solutions even if I did. I hope I’m completely wrong about the above.
Soprano2
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Maybe it’s the upcoming holidays. I know I wish they were already over. I’m dreading them this year, which is pretty much how I’ve felt about them ever since my sister was killed in the plane crash. They’re a stark reminder of everyone I’ve lost in the past 11 years.
Gvg
Maybe the reason I can’t care about “the left” is that I have never seen this extreme left you talk about. I live in Florida and I am over 60 years old. I haven’t seen that type of extreme left person since I was a child if then. Bashing the left is done by republicans and they actually mean every single democrat or anyone not of their tribe. They mean me, just because I don’t like pollution, want nature conservation and pay teachers not attack them. This was long before 2000 when things started to go really off the rails. I read the rest of you discussing them as if from a foreign country. Exotic politics.
ian
The building wasn’t surrounded, just the doors!!1!
I don’t know how I feel about the larger protest here, but Weigel has not covered himself in any glory with this kind of backtracking.
Imagine using this kind of logic in a situation like a riot, fire, or shooting.
Soprano2
Bibi was on “Morning Edition” this morning. I heard him say they found hundreds of weapons and missiles and bombs in and underneath that hospital. NPR keeps saying they cannot independently verify this information. This could be the same as the way the George W. administration kept saying they had proof of Saddam’s WMD program, when actually they had nothing, or it’s possible that stuff was actually there. At this point we just don’t know.
Geminid
@Kay: It’s a War Cabinet, and it does hem Netanyahu in. No one said this would prevent IDF soldiers from searching that hospital for Hamas fighters, or for hostages.
They did not find any live hostages, just the body of one hidden outside the hospital.
Spanish Moss
@Soprano2: Thanks for that explanation, I think it nicely captures the problem with the use of the “white women” generalization on this blog (I am also a white woman). You are going to get a better discussion if you target the behavior rather than the group.
It can be difficult to have a nuanced discussion here because moderation is only for the most egregious remarks (a policy that I agree with), so when someone gets very emotional or inflammatory, others get defensive or accusatory, and it snowballs. I think that is what happened on a small scale last night. It takes a thick skin to participate in a productive way.
Kay
@Chief Oshkosh:
Taking the scrubs-wearing hospital workers out the door at gunpoint with their hands in the air is stopping the delivery of medical treatment. I mean, come on. The US can register a mild public rebuke for that! If theycan appearevery three days with loud public statements of support for the IDF they can certainly do some public diplomacy on the keeping troops the fuck away from medical aid workers who are doing emergency treatment.
We all know that diplomacy is conducted both behind the scenes and publicly. I’m not disputing that – although, let’s be clear, it’s on faith, but PUBLIC diplomacy is also important if not for any other reason that they are the US diplomats and the US public overhwlemingly support humanitarian intervention.
I don’t even think this blank check is good for Israel. People are going to perceive it as unfair. There is no worse word in US politics than “unfair”.
As I;ve said beofore, I think this is particulalrly fraught for Biden, who for better or worse has presented himself as a caring humanitarian. I think that has taken a real hit.
TS
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I think it’s everywhere – the news is full off the negatives – war in the middle east and Ukraine – regardless of world opinion they go on and on. Safety at home – guns & schools and continuous fear of what some random person may do. Politics that seem to be negative, anti women, anti schools, banning books, people supporting right wing dictators world wide – the list is endless.
Shalimar
@schrodingers_cat: Your friends don’t have to agree with you 100% of the time. And many of them agree with you on this issue now that they know more context. You’re very valued here. I don’t think anyone wants you to stop commenting.
Another Scott
@ian: I haven’t paid much attention, at all, to this story. But I would take anything Weigel says with a grain of salt. He’s been called the “Republican whisperer” – he knows how to get information out of them, so obviously values those “special” contacts a great deal. He’s got a slant on things (whether nefarious or not).
People protest in DC. There’s a lot of press in DC, and the press likes active video.
Film at 11, as they say.
Cheers,
Scott.
Shalimar
@Another Scott: Weigel is also a libertarian, with all the selfishness that world view implies. He does a pretty good job of keeping it out of his reporting, but it is still important to consider his biases when reading his work.
schrodingers_cat
Its not just about yesterday, this blog’s comment section has not been a safe place for me since the Trump launched his bid for President. I kept commenting and overlooking all the micro and macro aggressions. Front pagers saying that their cat was more intelligent than me, and I should learn English because I lack reading comprehension. I have been called a liar, bigot, divisive and many other epithets for daring to disagree with the so called progressives in the comments and on FP. Been compared to Susan Sarandon, Bill Maher, Sinema etc. I have never made any personal attacks in return. I have reached my limit of personal attacks and character assassination yesterday.
If people can’t understand statistics and take statistical data as a personal insult, and don’t think all the destructive antics by the DSA-left is not going to come back to bite us Ds, what can I say.
Anyway its great knowing you. I am on Twitter and you can always reach me via my blog. I may drop in from time to time for old times sake after I take a break. I don’t know right know.
Happy Thanksgiving and all the Holidays you celebrate.
Gin & Tonic
I’m trying (and failing) to recall multiple comment threads here devoted to outrage at russian bombing of hospitals (note the plural) in Ukraine – which they do without even the pretext of military necessity. Is it just that the Gaza one is on TV and the Ukrainian ones aren’t?
Kay
@Chief Oshkosh:
There’s pollijg today that US Jews overwhelmingly support humanitarian intervention/aid. There is no downside for Biden publicly advocating for it and lots of downside for not doing so.
Gin & Tonic
@schrodingers_cat: Sorry to see you go. You provide a valuable perspective.
schrodingers_cat
@Shalimar: Friends don’t engage in belittling and character assassianation.
Kay
@Gin & Tonic:
You really think this blog has not been supportive enough of Ukraine? I think it has. I think it’s probably 100% supportive at this point.
For the record, I oppose bombing/attacking hospitals, wherever it occurs and whoever does it.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
Sorry to have missed the development of this thread, as I was traveling to work. My recollection is that I agreed with you on some of your comments. I didn’t respond to every single one. But I didn’t see a lot of viciousness in the responses to you.
But if that’s the way you feel, that’s the way you feel. We will miss you.
raven
Maybe we could bring back the great Cheryl Rofer to arbitrate.
schrodingers_cat
It was towards the end of that 300+ comments thread. Also it was not just yesterday’s thread. The hurt has been cummulative. Yesterday was the last straw.
Another Scott
@schrodingers_cat: Krope was a notorious troll for years. Then reformed and was a decent commenter for quite a while. He let his troll persona back out yesterday against you.
I’m sorry you were the target of his.
Hope to see you back in a bit.
Cheers,
Scott.
Shalimar
@schrodingers_cat: I know the post you’re talking about but I didn’t read the comments. I agree with you. Those who belittled you should apologize. Just speaking for myself, I don’t always agree with you but that doesn’t mean I ever think you’re wrong. You have a different perspective from mine that I highly value and would hate to lose.
Kay
@Gin & Tonic:
I think the difference for people in the US would be the US opposed the bombing of hospitals in Ukraine by Russia. Opposed even now that the aid for Ukraine is less popular. Opposed at some political risk and with massive amounts of funding. Opposed because opposing that is an easy, obvious call, or should be.
Kay
@Gin & Tonic:
I think the difference for people in the US would be the US opposed the bombing of hospitals in Ukraine by Russia. Opposed even now that the aid for Ukraine is less popular. Opposed at some political risk and with massive amounts of funding. Opposed because opposing that is an easy, obvious call, or should be.
Gin & Tonic
@Kay: This blog has been very supportive of Ukraine, for which I have expressed my appreciation more than once. And maybe discussion of the topic is now confined to Adam’s night-time threads. However, I stand by my comment that I do not recall anything like this level of outrage and rancor among the commentariat when, for instance, russians repeatedly bombed a maternity hospital in Mariupol in March and April of 2022. If it exists, I’m sure Another Scott will find it and correct me.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: I was working. And I’m a white woman, so I didn’t see what I could add to the discussion.
zhena gogolia
@Kay: Biden opposes the bombing of hospitals. It was explained over and over again what he is dealing with in this situation, and that blatant performative statements are not what’s needed when they are trying to do things behind the scenes diplomatically. Israel is at least nominally our ally, which Russia is not, so making strong public statements against Russia is not a balancing act. Nevertheless, I do not recall that Biden has publicly condemned every act of aggression against civilians that Russia has committed.
Eunicecycle
I feel the division evident here is a microcosm of what’s going on in the country right now. And it’s exactly what the bad actors from other countries want. I try to assume good faith on the part of most commenters here (I have a few in the pie filter) and that the “crankiness” is passion. I don’t know the answer to heal the hurts here; “agreeing to disagree” is not satisfying but that may be where we are.
frosty
@schrodingers_cat: I never read comment threads that get over 250 or so. One, it takes a lot of time, and two, it means there’s some kind of fight going on.
I’m sorry you got caught up in it and I hope you stick around or drop back in after a break. I like reading your comments.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: No worries. I appreciate your comments in this and other threads.
zhena gogolia
I have to work now, so won’t be commenting for a while, in case there are any further controversies.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: I hope you stay! We’re following your artistic development!
Kay
@Gin & Tonic:
Okay, but I stand by my assertion that the comparison doesn’t make any sense. There wasn’t outrage on this US blog about Russia bombing hospitals because the US opposed it. “We” opposed it. The outrage in the US comes from the perception that the US is NOT opposing the IDF raid on the hospital.
Another Scott
@Gin & Tonic: No, I think you’re right.
We all know that Israel / Palestine gets a lot of attention. Lots more than, say, what’s going on in DR Congo. For lots of reasons – press availability, familial ties, “strategic importance”, economics, racism, and on and on.
Some of it is related to “novelty” as well. VVP’s first attacks on hospitals got lots of attention, the hundredth, not so much. If the IDF is still attacking and emptying hospitals and schools and homes a year from now, no doubt we’ll hear less about it.
:-(
Humans can’t be machines and be perfectly objective in making comparisons.
Press attention can be good, but it can also warp responses and make things worse…
:-(
Hang in there.
Peace and comfort to the innocents.
Cheers,
Scott.
Shalimar
@Gin & Tonic: I seem to recall a lot of comments along the lines off “Russia is a culture that breeds evil superiority complexes and the world would be better off if they were all dead”, which Adam has had to warn people about from time to time. That is a lot of outrage
edit: And I agree with you 100% that Russian atrocities should be on the tv news every night. It is a tragedy how little the war is covered here now.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: your comments are valuable. Even if I don’t specifically agree, they’re always worth considering. For Twitter content, is it possible to copy the entire thread into a document to share here? Unless we still engage with the bird place, we only see the first tweet with no added context.
Manyakitty
@Princess: hard same. So cranky.
Manyakitty
@RevRick: lol
Manyakitty
@Kay: it’s not great, but I bet Bibi wanted to just bomb it. People need to zoom out a bit here.
Manyakitty
@Another Scott: this
Mike E
@raven: I’m pretty sure she’s not up for that kind of fool’s errand, heh
Miss Bianca
Yep, nothing like starting a violent protest for peace.
Tony G
@Frankensteinbeck: My own opinion is that Trump has NEVER been capable of planning strategy — or even planning short-term tactics. He has always been the pampered little boy that he was 70 years ago, and he has never grown up. He has never had to develop the self-discipline to do more than indulge his momentary impulses. He was an absolute failure as a businessman — declaring bankruptcy several times — and then he was on that dumb game show that stupid people liked to watch. It was Trump’s good fortune (and the world’s bad fortune) that tens of millions of American voters were so aggrieved by the fact that white men have less power than they used to have, that he was able to be elected president (with a significant minority of the popular vote). If the United States was a less dysfunctional society then Trump would be just another old man looking back on his failed life.
Paul in KY
@catclub: The police presence for the BLM protest was 10 times greater than for Jan 6.
Kay
@Manyakitty
I think people in the US are going to have a problem with the idea that Bibi can do whatever he wants with no apparent US pushback and we just have to be grateful he didn’t actually level the hospital.
The public opinion on htis isn’t complicated. The only people who oppose humanitarian intervention are the 20% who comprise the far Right. Biden should be on the 80% side, both because it”s the right side and because it’s political suicide not to be.
Citizen Alan
@Frankensteinbeck:
I am genuinely conflicted over the whole vermin thing. I feel like a hypocrite condemning Shitgibbon for using that term to describe democrats when I have regularly used “vermin” to describe the mainstream media and my preferred term for republicans is “garbage human.”
Omnes Omnibus
Good to see that everyone is cheerful and looking forward to the weekend. FWIW I take time off from commenting here for a week or so every once in a while. Everyone has their triggers and sometimes those triggers conflict. Even though a lot of people share what they are going through on this blog, we can’t know everything that is happening in their lives. Most of us are trying to interact in good faith most of the time. We should try to remember that. And take a walk once in a while.
Paul in KY
@Gin & Tonic: I think anyone at Balloon Juice just is fundamentally against the bombing of hospitals. Maybe special threads should have been up, but no one here is pro-hospital-bombing.
Subsole
@Princess:
The fastest way to get an American to want you, your family, and the cause you support to die screaming in a fire is to inconvenience them in traffic.
@Kay: Do I detect the subtle whiff of “the adults in the room will control him”?
@TS: They either don’t see it, or it feeds their automartyrdom fetish. Suffering for the Cause, and all that.
@schrodingers_cat: I don’t know the background here, but I will say I find your reporting on BJP and what’s going on in India informative, and your drawings very pretty. Hope you stick around.
Subsole
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Sounds reasonable.
Part of the reason The Roaring 20s were so loud was because people were trying to drown out the decade before.
Paul in KY
@Kay: Maybe a perceived downside among non-Jewish Democratic voters who reflexively support Israel?
Manyakitty
@Kay: sure, but we need to adjust the framing. Maybe also bring up the fact that Israel has tried to bring humanitarian support/medical supplies to Gaza, often being refused by Hamas.
The bad actors everywhere are sucking up the oxygen and that is by design.
Citizen Alan
@schrodingers_cat:
I will agree with you 100% that the DSA is our enemy, as is the green party. Both only exist as ways to rat fuck the democratic party from the left. And I would dearly love for there to be an investigation of the ring leaders of that riot at the DNC headquarters because I wonder just how many of them have GOP and/or russian connections.
Paul in KY
@schrodingers_cat: I’ve always thought you can be a bit histrionic at times. I will miss your perspective, though. Especially on the BJP doings in India. Best wishes on a peaceful Holiday Season.
Omnes Omnibus
@Paul in KY: Every commenter has their foibles. With regular and frequent commenters, one gets to notice them. A few years ago, Major^4 got bored and did an analysis of commenters- language and let many regulars know what there most frequently used phrases were. It was rather interesting. Oddly, mine was not “go blow a goat.”
Geminid
@Paul in KY: There are also the non-Jewish Democratic voters who support Israel, but not “reflexively.” They, I believe, are the largest group of all.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: I actually took a break for Lent this year because one particular commenter had me in such a froth of rage. Not that anyone noticed, particularly. ; )
Subsole
@Citizen Alan:
That is a fair point.
Counterpoint: you would not gas-chamber these people even though you despise them. Some of those folks yukking along with The Bronzed Calf absolutely would kill us all. Then go sing in the choir.
Omnes Omnibus
@Miss Bianca: What did I do?
Geminid
@Subsole: Anyone interested in Netanyahu’s governance can find out plenty from reading the very anti-Netanyahu Haaretz news site.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: O2, to quote the great Dr Silverman, “you know what you did”!
However, in all seriousness (my particular abhorrence, so pay attention!), your comments have *never* annoyed me. Usually quite the opposite. What that says about you, me, and/or the universe is yet to be determined.
Omnes Omnibus
Quite worrisome.
Kay
@Manyakitty:
Absolutely bring that up! The more talk about humanitarian aid the better. And less chest-beating from Biden. It really doesn’t suit him. I listen to him and I don’t recognize this person, which is a problem for politicians because people will read it as he misrepresented himself.
Bill Clinton could do it- we knew what he was about – and Obama is sort of a cold person (I am too- I’m not judging) but Biden? Biden’s political persona is humanitarian. If people believe that was insincere he will be in real trouble.
Another Scott
Reuters.com has a good opinion piece today on the complexity of the after-Hamas issues.
Worth a click.
Cheers,
Scott.
Subsole
@Geminid:
Many thanks.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Also, we’re not funding Russia’s military with billions in taxpayer dollars every year. Americans feel complicit in Israel’s actions, as we should.
I’m ambivalent as hell about the conflict. I hate that we’re supporting a rightwing asshole like Netanyahu, and I think it’s terrible that Biden has to an extent thrown in his lot with that prick with no preconditions.
As we all know, Netanyahu and his extremist cabinet propped up Hamas as a foil to pursue their West Bank “settlement” agenda, in defiance of the U.S. And Netanyahu has every incentive to avoid a peaceful resolution since he’ll may lose power when that happens. So why give him carte blanche in public? Why not at least attach conditions?
On the other hand, I don’t think it’s unjust that Israelis want to eradicate the vile fanatics in Gaza who attacked them and committed horrible atrocities. I’m not convinced a center left Israeli government would be conducting the war any differently, including the hospital raids since they claim that’s where Hamas is hiding. I don’t know if that’s true, but could anyone put it past them?
Sigh. It’s a horrible situation, and I sympathize with innocent people on both sides. I don’t know where we go from here.
dirge
I do recall outrage over that, but there wasn’t much occasion for rancor, simply because everyone’s expectations of Russia started very low, and quickly descended into the gutter where they belong. There might have been some “let’s wait for more evidence before believing the worst” comments for a bit, but that didn’t last long. So we can bear witness, but there are no more surprises, no controversy to argue about.
Regarding Israel on the other hand, even those of us expecting the worst have been surprised and disappointed. Plenty of people think Israel can or at least should be the good guys here, and are in shock and/or denial. There’s cognitive dissonance, a broader range of perspectives, more to argue about. That’s going to make it look like people care more, but I don’t think that’s necessarily the case.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
I think I heard on Morning Joe yesterday that people in Israel are starting to talk more openly about dumping Netanyahu. If that can happen, hopefully there will be opportunity for a new path forward.
Geminid
@Subsole: You might find that some of Haaretz’s articles are paywalled. It’s hit and miss for me. But just the headlines are informative, and I think you can read paywalked articles by signing in with an email address.
The Jerusalem Post and Times of Israel are not paywalled, but unlike Haaretz tgey try to be neutral. Right now they have a lot of war news but there are political stories too. They’re a bit like USA Today
StringOnAStick
@Gvg: I thought the far left were pretty exotic too, until I tangled with one of my husband’s oldest friends who is refusing to vote for Biden, and then a 60 yo doctor just last week who is doing the same. Both are of the “I refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils” camp, so they exist. I had good examples of where they were wrong thanks to the things I learn here. Both say climate change is their biggest issue; I pointed out that a fascist victory is going to make sure this country never does anything about climate change again, and actively regresses on this as well. It’s like talking to a damned wall. So, they do exist and are the folks who fall for the “enhance the contradictions” plan, which has never, ever resulted in things getting better for the average human; now it’s about the entire planet if they refuse to sully their precious, virginal vote.
Baud
@StringOnAStick:
Those people are the greater evil.
Freemark
@Gin & Tonic: many on here support the Israeli military action in Gaza, just not the extremes of it like the hospital attack. While pretty much everyone on here is totally against Russia so there is no one evil thing they do that gets focused on, and they do so many.
To make it clear I don’t support their attack practically at all but there is a mix on here while the support for here of Russia is about 0%.
Freemark
@Miss Bianca: the protest didn’t appear to be violent. Linking arms and refusing to move isn’t violent. But their blocking of all exits couldn’t be accepted, for good reason.
StringOnAStick
@Baud: Agreed.
Geminid
@Freemark: When these people linked arms they gave the police the choice of letting them stay and forcible pulling them loose. The demonstrators knew that and wanted to be able to cry police brutality. I wish the police had arrested them, but this will happen again and then I think there will be arrests.
Kathleen
@Baud: From what I saw in Twitter the chaos agents and their sycophants like Weigel wanted “Police Violence” to be the story. I guess it didn’t succeed. On my local news this morning the demonstration in San Fran was only reference to protests and it came after Joe Burrow’s wrist, latest shootings, Union votes on the contract, weather, Joe Burrow’s wrist and other injured Bengals.
OGLiberal
Maybe I’m missing something but that protest didn’t look violent. Locking arms and defying orders to move is like Civil Disobedience 101. Like civil rights prtestors back in the day, I think these folks would have been OK with getting arrested. They had LED votive candles and people are out there saying they started fires in the street. Maybe there were a few people in the bunch who went too far but about the only aggression I saw was yelling and cops mildly shoving protestors back/out of the way. Also, while there were elected officials in the building, it’s the DNC building, not the halls of government. I highly doubt these protestors would have blocked the doors if, for example, there was a fire inside or a medical emergency. Let’s not both sides this and, also, let’s not let the media and/or the GOP both sides this. Don’t want, “Even the liberal blog Balloon Juice agrees….” And you know they will because this is a top 10,000 blog. We can’t walk around worrying about any protest that might draw a police presence because a horde of animals on the right tried to overthrow our government a couple years ago. This wasn’t that….not even close.
Manyakitty
@Kay: fair assessment. No doubt this is incredibly difficult for him.
Geminid
@OGLiberal: It may not be violent when a group blocks a door and someone inside wants to get out, but it is coercion. That can be charged as false imprisonment, and next time I hope it is.
Baud
@OGLiberal:
You don’t get to block all points of egress because Balloon Juice finds your cause more sympathetic than the MAGA cause.
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: I sure do (have my own foibles, etc.)
Paul in KY
@Geminid: Was trying to come up with a reason Pres. Biden has ben loth to make any criticisms of Israeli tactics.
Paul in KY
@StringOnAStick: I am 100% sure these snowflakes are personally well-off moneywise. They would burn everything just to be able to say ‘I told you so’
Geminid
@Paul in KY: One reason is that he agrees with their basic war aim, which is to end Hamas control of Gaza. Securing the area around Al Shifa Hospital and reducing the miltia fighting points around it were a neccesary part of that. So was sending commandos in to ensure there were no Hamas fighters or hostages inside.
Bobby Thomson
Am I the only one who remembers Weigel is an unreliable narrator at best?
Geminid
@Bobby Thomson: No. You are not the only one.