Adam Schiff isn’t one to exaggerate or to say things that are impossible, wrong, or irresponsible. He said this yesterday.
We need to provide funding for Ukraine as soon as possible and the President has the power to do it.
The administration can allocate frozen Russian assets to Ukraine.
It is consistent with international law, and can be done immediately.
So let’s do it.
— Adam Schiff (@RepAdamSchiff) December 16, 2023
Does the President have the power to do this?
Would the Republicans try to impeach him for this, if he did it? (Of course, they will impeach him anyway, so does that even matter?)
Even if doing this would put Biden out on a limb, are the stakes in Ukraine so high that it would be worth the risk? Because we can’t leave Ukraine hanging in the wind, and we can’t afford to let Ukraine lose this battle.
Even if Biden were to consider this option, would he wait until the end of January, to give the Republicans in the House one last chance to do the right thing before stepping in?
Discuss. (Or not! It’s an open thread.)
VeniceRiley
Yes, Schiff! Now. Now now now.
Ensure victory for Ukraine and punch traitor fascist gerrymandered qanon Republicans in the junk in one move. Do it.
Scout211
Getting this out there is a good step, I think. I would not be surprised if this statement by Schiff is being coordinated with the White House.
Your move, House GOP.
Let’s see how they respond to this thinly-veiled threat.
WaterGirl
Like the plan the Biden administration came up with – and rolled out – for student loan forgiveness after the Supreme Court, I cannot imagine that the Biden Administration isn’t working night and day on plans to support Ukraine if the House refuses to do their job
And, like what I will call the student loan forgiveness “plan B”, we may not know a thing about the coming plan until they announce it. I doubt they would want to telegraph anything that would allow the other side to poke their stick in the bicycle spokes.
Another Scott
I like Schiff, but he – and Schumer (on federal student debt) and a few others (on various things) – seem to think that there’s always One Weird Trick available to solve problems that Congress must address.
The law partners at the giant law firms must be salivating at the prospect.
[sigh]
A ForeignPolicy piece on the topic:
Worth a click.
(IANAL.)
Cheers,
Scott.
Alison Rose
Zero idea if this is the right move, but I agree Schiff wouldn’t suggest it if it were illegal or dumb. Also, considering the Republicans would impeach Biden if he bit into a whole Kit-Kat rather than breaking the sections apart, I’d say worrying about getting impeached over this shouldn’t play into his decision-making.
sdhays
I assume this is a shot across the bow to the House Republican leadership. “You can either deal, or we’ll act unilaterally and you’ll get nothing.”
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Desperate times call for desperate measures?
WaterGirl
@Alison Rose:
Exactly! If you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t, you have the luxury of doing whatever you think is right.
Love your Kit-Kat comment – kudos if that’s an Alison Rose original!
Omnes Omnibus
Janet Yellen seems to think that doing this would require a change to US law. (NYT) I do not know enough about the subject to say one way or another, but I will say it probably isn’t as simple as Schiff suggests.
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: Haha, it is indeed! Merci, madame :D
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: Maybe.
Politics is slow. Things are moving in the Senate. Neither the House nor the Senate have rejected Biden’s Supplemental yet. I think we have to let things play out in the Congress first.
Sure, talk about, and think about the implications of seizing russia’s assets. It beats talking about TIFG and Comer and so forth. ;-) But I don’t think it’s the way to go – the FP piece makes it plain that there are lots of potential serious consequences. (E.g. why would the GQP monsters allow any US support for Ukraine in the future if they get a windfall of russian cash now??).
We’ll see.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: At your link, on Dec 12.
rikyrah
My latest TikTok interests..
1. Group of people on a 9 month cruise around the world
2. Neil the Seal. A large seal who is doing his shedding on Tazmania. He is hilarious😂
Glidwrith
From the perspective of strictly surface-level understanding, which is what most of the electorate will have and what the thugs will immediately equate the seizing of funds to:
Taking Russian money for Ukraine’s war is just like Iran-Contra!
WaterGirl
@Glidwrith: You could be right, but I’m not at all sure about that.
Most of the electorate are not terribly engaged, and they probably have no idea what Iran-Contra even was!
rikyrah
David Simon on Andre Braugher😢
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1736396444511138087.html#google_vignette
bbleh
Concur that the long-term implications for international relations are more important than any silly impeachment possibilities. As to the latter, it’s a question of when, not if.
And I suppose it almost goes without saying that this is exactly the sort of thing TIFG would do if he felt like it, laws and international norms be damned, for which both the Republicans in Congress and his meathead cult would cheer him loudly.
Brachiator
@Another Scott:
The Foreign Policy article suggests that people have been considering this, so Schiff is not just pulling a rabbit out of a hat.
Also good to see the cautions that should be considered.
Good background piece. Thanks.
Mike in NC
Republicans will never do the right thing if Dear Leader objects.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: Yes. A statement from her that the action would probably require a change in US law and my saying that she seems to believe that the action would require a change in US law are not inconsistent.
Another Scott
@Glidwrith: “Biden Crime Family seizes College Savings Funds of Innocent Orphans!!11ONE”
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
Alison Rose
This video is titled “Building verbal communication with my blind cow” and yes it is just as sweet and tear-inducing as you think.
Alison Rose
@Another Scott: LOLLLL
rikyrah
The Tennessee Holler (@TheTNHoller) tweeted at 7:59 AM on Sun, Dec 17, 2023:
WATCH: “You just can’t come on here and lie.” 🤥
Symone repeatedly asks @RepTimBurchett what the evidence is for an impeachable crime. He shows yet again that they have nothing, resorts to attacking her. 👇🏽
(https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1736385656723587074?s=02)
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: Of course the administration is considering this. I am sure they are considering many options, but, as I stated above, the situation is probably more complicated than Schiff suggests in his Tweet. Things usually are more complicated than can be dealt with properly in a Tweet.
Glidwrith
@WaterGirl: True, though that makes it even better, because Faux could rewrite the history.
Personally, I’d be cheering Biden on, yes, yes, YES!
For the harm Putin has done, for the de facto state of war he’s declared on the US and every other Western democracy, take every last dollar and bury the bastard.
Omnes Omnibus
I am not pouring cold water on this for fun. I hope that it is a workable solution because it would get needed support to Ukraine and because fuck the the Russian oligarch that’s why. An elegant solution, if it can be done. I don’t want people to get their hopes up that this is simple and then be crushed if it isn’t doable.
mrmoshpotato
That’s actually more reasonable than the asshattery they’re “inquiring” about, and it’s still dumber than a bag of hammers.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: Great story. Now I want to go back and watch Homicide again. Such a great show, so many great characters. I haven’t been following every post lately, have we had a post for Andre Braugher yet?
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I wasn’t presenting that as inconsistent, just trying to share some of the content of the article at your link, and call attention to the word probably because a lot of our BJ peeps skim rather than read. :-)
Brachiator
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t see that we disagree at all. I noted the cautions mentioned in the Foreign Policy article. And the piece on Yellen’s comments underscores this.
The Tweets simply provide us with small hints of the foreign policy discussions going on.
zhena gogolia
@rikyrah: thank you!
WaterGirl
@Brachiator: @Omnes Omnibus: I suspect we’re all on the same page here. Interesting idea, uncertainty about whether it can actually be done, but surely hoping it can.
I am also on team “we’re putting this out there so Rs don’t delude themselves into thinking they hold all the cards” – plus I think t’s a bit of a stick to let them know they may be left in the dust if they dick around on this much longer than after the holidays.
Bex
@VeniceRiley: What you said. x1000.
Wapiti
Somewhere down the road there will be a negotiated peace between Ukraine and Russia. I think it’s going to be hard for Ukraine to get any real reparations out of Russia. Better to use these assets now (if at all legally permissible), and let Ukraine forgive the value against any negotiated reparations. The US would probably be on the hook for any shortfall, but cross that bridge later.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m with you.
Hungry Joe
@Alison Rose: To be fair, biting into a whole Kit-Kat instead of breaking the sections apart is a sign of serious derangement, and should trigger the 25th Amendment as well as impeachment proceedings.
@Alison Rose:
kindness
While Joe Biden isn’t leaving Ukraine to twist in the wind, inaction (due to Putin loving Republicans) appears to look like Putin has the upper hand. And really, it’d be one thing if Republicans were simply America First! haters, but they aren’t. Republicans have shown themselves to be actual Nazis by whom they support and heap glory on. With that in mind, I’m fine with going to extremes to fight Putin. It’s a two birds with one stone thing. Take Putin’s money & knock a Republican in the head with the same throw
@Wapiti: You mean like the negotiated settlement that happened with Crimea? Dude, you aren’t paying attention to recent history much.
Alison Rose
@Hungry Joe: And if Hungry Joe can restrain himself, anyone can!
Another Scott
Meanwhile, … AFP headline on the France24.com right sidebar:
You know the headline writer has been salivating for months at the thought of using that…
Hehe.
Cheers,
Scott.
mrmoshpotato
@rikyrah: Is it this sealy jerk?
mrmoshpotato
Is there a sitting rib roast?
lowtechcyclist
@kindness:
This. The only settlement with Russia that means anything is one that Ukraine can, or that the West is willing to, enforce with arms.
eclare
@Another Scott:
Hahaha…
RevRick
@kindness: I suspect President Biden is hesitating from going down this road just yet, because doing so would take Congressional Republicans off the hook. And then what happens when the pot of Russian gold runs out? (And this assumes that other countries don’t have claims on it).
Biden is insisting that Congress support Ukraine. And he wants them to blink first.
hrprogressive
Given that Adam has never once (that I am aware of) ever suggested this as a course of action, I’m gonna guess it’s not viable, whether it’s due to legal constraints, potential geopolitical consequences, or domestic consequences.
I like the idea of “thinking outside the box” but Biden is about as “by the book” as you can get, so…
Omnes Omnibus
@hrprogressive: Adam knows a lot, but I am not aware that he is a expert in international financial regulations.
Shalimar
@Hungry Joe: Bah. Biting into a whole Kit-Kat is a sign of separation anxieties and abandonment issues. Lots of people have them. They can lead to serious derangement but usually stop well short.
trollhattan
@Another Scott: Well, uh, played headline writer.
Still waiting for a broadcaster to give us the obvious quip when the NWSL rookie of the year takes a set piece: Nighswonger inswinger. Afraid of spraining something, I think.
Memory Pallas
Maybe Schiff (and Yellen, quietly) are signalling to the Supreme Court that this is the sort of thing a president will be able do unilaterally if they are immune from all prosecution and have enough Senators to vote down an impeachment conviction going forward. I mean it’s only Russian oligarchs for now. But what’s to stop a future president Donald Trump from saying “I am seizing all of Koch Industries assets and distributing them to the Trump Organization, because they supported Nikki Haley.”??
Geminid
I wonder if Rep. Schiff provided a rough value for the Russion assets in question. President Biden is asking Congress to appropriate $60 billion for military aid for Ukraine, like it did in last year’s Omnibus bill. How much of that $60 billion could Russian assets replace?
I guess anything could make a difference if Congress won’t pass the $60 billion. I think they will, but nothing will be certain on that score for at least another 3 weeks.
Miss Bianca
Speaking of Presidential powers…interesting article in WaPo about why Americans are getting shorter, particularly Millenials. Surprise, surprise…trend started in the 1980s with Reaganomics.
Yet another thing we can lay at that bastard’s rotting feet.
Sure Lurkalot
Wingers went nuts when Iranian frozen assets were returned for humanitarian purposes in exchange for hostages in September. They would likely go equally bonkers if Trump’s benefactor’s assets were used. Many of the wingier ones think Russia is an antiwoke Christian paradise.
wjca
On the other hand, I wouldn’t be surprised if they have told the Ukrainians, strictly on the QT, that they will do so if necessary. Which would at least reduce the ulcer potential in Kyiv.
Wapiti
@kindness: Exactly. Take the Russian money before the negotiation, because Ukraine won’t get anything after the negotiation.
Quinerly
@rikyrah:
Met a retired atty Fri in Santa Fe (used to be in NM’s AG’s dept and years ago and prosecuted the state’s largest state RICO case in Hobbs, NM. Very interesting guy). He’s 75, only child, never married, no children, 8th generation plus Santa Fean (father’s side, Spanish) and has macular degeneration. Can’t drive. Sold his family home in Tesuque, NM 2 years ago. Essentially “homeless.” Hasn’t bought anything to live in. Has spent the last 2 years on extended, several months long cruises, flying place to place, and Ubering. Said as someone whose whole life revolved around landlocked NM, he really loves the cruises. Personally, if I had a choice between living the rest of my life being on a cruise vs being shot at dawn, I would really consider the latter.
wjca
In particular, it seems to look that way to Putin. Certainly his recent speeches reflect that. Setting him up to have his assumptions blow up in his face would be the kind of political jujitsu Biden has shown he excels at when necessary. With having the situation blow up in the RWNJs’ faces a bonus.
eclare
@Miss Bianca:
Read an article about this at least a decade ago. And the Dutch keep getting taller.
Glad to see it’s getting some attention.
lowtechcyclist
@RevRick:
That’s all well and good, but the overriding goal is to ensure that Ukraine gets the aid it needs, when it needs it. The (legal) means by which it is done is a couple of orders of magnitude less important, AFAIAC.
The overall size of the Russian pot of gold is much more the aid that the USA and Europe have given to Russia so far, so I’m of the opinion that we worry about its running out after we know how much Ukraine could actually get, and has started getting it. Hopefully it would only be needed for 2024 and the first few months of 2025. If the Dems can retake the House and hold the Senate, there will be no question about it.
LiminalOwl
@rikyrah: Thank you! Now I want to follow David Simon; alas, he does not seem to be on bluesky.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, … KyivIndependent.com:
Anything that make things, er, uncomfortable for VVP’s reelection (March 15-17, 2024) is potentially a good thing.
Slava Ukraini!!
Cheers,
Scott.
Gvg
I disagree on Schiff not suggesting this if it wasn’t possible…I have found him to be too optimistic sometimes. It really doesn’t sound too likely to me but maybe.
I have another couple of issues. 1, there is no guarantee that these assets can actually be sold for their supposed value. It depends on finding buyers who may think buying an asset with legal litigation and novel ownership claims is not the way they want to spend millions.
On the other side I tend to think most Russian big shots are actually a kind of official mafia in government who run criminal enterprises in the rest and aside from Ukraine, we should be taking stuff away from criminals after proof.
Martin
My understanding is that it’s US law which is the obstacle. Congress only permits seizing of assets which the US is in ‘armed hostilities’ against. Congress has made individual exceptions to this in the past, which they haven’t in this case. They’d need to pass a law.
There’s also the takings clause which definitely applies to foreign individuals (oligarchs) in peacetime which Congress can’t overrule. And there’s the due process clause which apparently the courts have never ruled on, but again would only apply in peacetime.
Biden would have to declare that we are in armed conflict with Russia (could cite various Russian cyberattacks for that) but this risks escalation. And the US couldn’t touch the oligarch money. The central bank frozen assets are substantial ($300b) but most of it isn’t in the US, so using it might run afoul of whatever similar laws exist in the nation where it resides.
Martin
@Gvg: The assets in question is cash – mainly petrodollars held in other countries to facilitate Russian oil deals. The non-cash assets are the oligarch yachts and the like which I think are absolutely off limits for this per my post above.
eldorado
how many divisions does yellen have?
Subsole
@rikyrah:
Please. Given how utterly supine the media is when it comes to the GOP since at least Bush the Lesser, why wouldn’t a Republican just barge into the studio and lie bald-faced?
I mean, what, the frustrated novelists’ club is gonna stop inviting Conservatives onto their air and letting them lie if they don’t straighten up? When has that ever even looked like a possibility?
This is just chickens roosting. The media failed to stand up to the liars, and now the liars are running roughshod over them.
After 25 years of babying the party that Rupert, Rush and Newt built, these journo-pukes DESERVE the disrespect they are getting from these people. Miss me with the impotent sputtering.
Alison Rose
@Miss Bianca: Well, shoot. I was born in 1980, so I guess I can’t blame my munchkinhood on Reagan.
Subsole
@Shalimar:
What if I bite into a whole KitKat sideways?
Alison Rose
@Subsole: FELONY.
patrick II
Since using Russian funds would not affect money for the border it would show the basic Republican argument against our funding of weapons for Ukraine to be the sham it is. They will oppose using Russian money as well and it will become even more clear they are on the side of a fascist dictator.
Subsole
@Memory Pallas:
That is true, but I doubt the Slimebag Six care. They will just transfer their allegiance to whichever Vessel of Mammon holds the money.
These people were hired for their moral flexibility in service to the will to power.
Alito, for example, is exactly the kind of smug prick who is too arrogant to realize how cheaply he can be bought, because he thinks he isn’t for sale.
Subsole
@Alison Rose:
I will do it again.
You cannot stop me.
Yarrow
@Gvg:
Agreed. And a downside of him tweeting this like it’s One Weird Trick is that if Biden doesn’t do it, or gets some money for Ukraine some other way, people will complain he didn’t do this thing.
jimmiraybob
Maybe something along the lines of lending with a return and/or deferred payment with interest option?
Alison Rose
LOLLL:
Of course it’s not about “hey wow you’re a monster” but rather “you’re gonna cockblock our fundraising”.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, … DJ Cummerbund – Rebel Navidad (4:08)
You’re welcome. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Geminid
@Alison Rose: Sounds like Ziegler wants Florida Republicans to pay him to go away, with a financial settlement plus a non-disclosure agreement.
Tony G
Biden should do this NOW with ALL of the frozen Russian assets.
lowtechcyclist
@Alison Rose:
Of course! After all, there’s no way one can be too much of a monster for the GQP.
But in a battle where one can’t help but root for injuries, I’ve got to admire this deft move by the FL GQP. He was clearly going to demand something substantial in return for resigning as party chair, which they apparently didn’t have the power to remove him from. (I don’t grok that part, but that’s what the media say.) So they made the position all but worthless. No money, negligible power.
Now I’m hoping (because rooting for injuries!) that he can use the fact that he still has the title of party chair, even stripped of nearly all of its authority, to make life miserable for them. We’ll see.
lowtechcyclist
@Yarrow:
Eh, whatever. If Biden can’t or won’t do it, the purity ponies would just be carping about something else.
You can’t spend your life worrying about What People May Say.
davecb
@Another Scott:
Not central bank holdings, but holding of sanctioned russian oligarchs have been seized by Canada. Announced last year December 19, 2022
eversor
@Subsole:
Alito is doing everything he does for Christianity. He has stated this openly and repeatedly and gone on rants about it both in public and private. Bill Barr said the same shit.
It’s not the rich, it’s the Christianity. So if we are going to keep Christianity this can’t be solved and let’s end social security and create the handmaidens tale now and all say it’s great.
Alison Rose
Ah, the Balloon Juice Village Idiot has shown up.
hrprogressive
@Omnes Omnibus:
Maybe it’s not his raison d’être, I will concede that.
It just feels like if it were a viable route, we may have heard about it before now, is all.
Maybe he’ll mention it in the next Update. Maybe not.
lowtechcyclist
@Alison Rose: It’s pastry time!
glc
@eversor:
Wait, I know this one – “Why not both?”
Don’t try to convince me there are no venal Christians.
Miss Bianca
@Alison Rose:
I hear you, but y’know…when bad things happen to bad people, I’m not gonna quibble about the hows and whys of their bad fortune.//
Smiling Happy Guy (aka boatboy_srq)
@WaterGirl: Agreed. Plus using this particular vehicle to support Ukraine puts the GQP on the defensive for not being totally in the tank for Putin and his New Soviets. Make them squirm a bit, or watch them go full-bore fascist and try to get reelected on that platform.
The House leadership is already trying to impeach Biden for exhaling CO2 and thus contributing to global warming (about the only time they would use AGCC for anything), so there’s no risk that is not already being realized.
Subsole
@eversor:
See, I have to disagree.
I think the Christianity is just the excuse, the justification. Like with Trump, it gives them permission to be assholes, and they want to be assholes more than they want to keep breathing. Taking the church away is not going to fix that.
Now, you can certainly be angry at a church that gives such flagrant approval to that kind of assholery. That is a righteous anger. I just don’t think getting rid of faith (or religion, but that’s just the expression of faith) will have much real effect in the end.
Sam Alito is Sam Alito because he is a small, cruel, arrogant man who truly believes that a narrow mind is a tidy mind. Abolishing all faith (which, for the record, is what you are proposing. The ills of Christianity are flourishing in Hinduism, Islam, and other faiths) and he’d just be doing it via the Citizens’ Science Council, or the Atheism Outreach Program.
I guess what I am saying in my long-winded way is that none of these asswipes were waiting on the church to make them bastards. The fact that the church failed to put the brakes on them is a strong argument against it. That said, I am not sure that throwing out the church is going to fix anything, because I think the rot runs a lot deeper than some religious structures.
Smiling Happy Guy (aka boatboy_srq)
@Memory Pallas: That signal has been made already, with Lord Dampnut yanking troops out of Syria and leaving Kurds to the Turks, negotiating with the Taliban the fourth worst treaty in history, and mumbling incessantly about backing out of NATO which a second Death Breather maladministration will no doubt execute. Likewise with Shrub’s thoroughly inappropriate Iraq adventure and AG scrubbing attempts. Nothing happened then. The only time SCOTUS or Congress will act on executive overreach is when there’s Dem in the WH. Witness the 22nd Amendment because of FDR, and nothing after Iran/Contra besides the few fall guys.
We need to stop worrying about what SCOTUS will do; they (and Congress) are already on the record allowing liberties for Conservatists and cracking down on anyone else. Hints about executive excesses seem more like suggestions to less-bright conservatists than the dire warnings we would otherwise expect.
Smiling Happy Guy (aka boatboy_srq)
@Subsole: the two biggest problems are the perversion of Calvinist Election (where righteousness is indicated by wealth and success) and the idea that forgiveness is not merely for what one has done (and which needs to be renewed) but inclusive for all future acts. Xtianists think wealth says they’re Saved, and forgiveness means they can go on being arseholes because He has already expunged every last one of their sins past and future with the initial pass. This is the twisted philosophy that desperately needs rejection by all of Christendom.