Things are still in flux, but it looks like the UN Security Council vote has been delayed by one more day. It appears that President Biden is participating in the “high level” talks.
This is interesting, though it may not bode well for the possibility of the U.S. abstaining and not vetoing. But Blinken does make an interesting point.
Blinken: “What is striking to me is that even as we hear many countries urging the end to this conflict, which we would all like to see, I hear virtually no one saying, demanding of Hamas, that it stop hiding behind civilians, lay down its arms, that it surrender.” pic.twitter.com/HCT05OaOnX
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) December 20, 2023
🎄
Jack Smith asks for an immediate, definitive decision from the Supreme Court.
I like the sound of that.
— Andrew Weissmann (weissmann11 on Threads)🌻 (@AWeissmann_) December 21, 2023
🎄
Don’t shoot the messenger department: I’m surprised to be hearing many rosy assessments on the shows about the likelihood that the Supreme Court affirm the Colorado Supreme Court ruling disqualifying Trump. I’ve got to say I think it’s a definite long shot.
— Harry Litman (@harrylitman) December 20, 2023
🎄
Two good resources related to Trump’s disqualification by the Colorado Supreme Court, at least for now.
If you have 5 minutes to listen to a really great summary 0f the 8 legal conclusions in the Colorado Supreme Court ruling, click play below and then move the slider to 6:15. You’ll hear Mary McCord explaining each of the 8 legal conclusions. Andrew Weissman jumps in after the first one, and if you’re short on time you can click ahead in 30-second increments until you hear Mary speaking again. At that point, she goes through points 2-8 without interruption.
Here’s Harry Litman talking with Steve Vladeck, who must be the go-to guy on SCOTUS and the 14th Amendment, section three issue – because he has been a guest on Lawfare and Prosecuting Donald Trump this week, and now we have this one-on-one with Harry Litman.
🎄
This is not a coincidence pic.twitter.com/oaSDcb0yzs
— Biden-Harris HQ (@BidenHQ) December 20, 2023
We probably all know that Rudy is declaring bankruptcy (this is my shocked face).
What else is everybody up to? Frantic holiday preparations or keeping up with the news?
Open thread.
RepubAnon
Whether the Supremes uphold Colorado’s Supreme Court’s decision likely depends upon whether they think doing so would help the Republicans win in 2024, coupled with worries over the US Supreme Court’s role in an autocratic regime. After all, with Trump as El Caudillo, who needs the Supremes?
Suzanne
I’m sorry, I don’t see this as exceptionally profound. They’re a bunch of thugs and terrorists. They are scum and trash.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
Well, from the reports I just read, that $148 million defamation judgment may be bankruptcy-proof, which I hope means that the court will do to Rudy what the COMEX did to the Duke Brothers at the end of Trading Places.
narya
Vladek is more the go-to guy on SCOTUS; he wrote a book on the shadow docket. He’s very interesting in terms of his assessments of what courts in the past have done versus what this one is doing.
WaterGirl
@Bruce K in ATH-GR: I don’t remember the end of that movie. What are you hoping for?
Sasha
Blinken voices my biggest peeve regarding the Gaza crisis.
I cannot see how SCOTUS rules unanimously on Trump’s CO disqualification, except maybe to punt the question.
Old School
@Bruce K in ATH-GR: Bruce – Check Comment #4 in the Healthcare.gov post earlier today. You might be able to help out a jackal.
trollhattan
IDK how to parse all this mess.
My simpleton;s take is Hamas is rejected as having agency here, and thus the Gazan residents have nobody to speak for them in an official capacity. IOW sucks to be them.
Oh, Hamas has now stated no hostage releases “until Israel ends the war”, so no replication of the last deal. It would seem they and Bibi remain on the same page, just seeking different outcomes.
Lyrebird
Thank you WG, and distant thanks to Secy. Blinken.
Apparently some members of congress wrote to Pres. Biden with specific suggestions on changing US posture, has anyone here seen it? I only know because it was mentioned in a recent email from J Street, but they didn’t link to it sfaict.
ETA: J Street is advocating for similar things, if I understood correctly. I’d like to know who the members of congress are so I can ask my rep to sign on!
WaterGirl
@trollhattan:
Or maybe they are exactly on the same page – they both want a continuation of the war, but for different reasons.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@Old School: I posted in that thread, but I’ll put it here too: the internist I’ve seen in the past has his contact information at https://nipapmed.wixsite.com/nipapmed – just a few blocks west of the US Embassy.
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
Supreme court won’t directly rule on Colorado question instead they’ll say that there needs to be a trial to determine if he participated insurrection and return the case back to the state for further action.
Alison Rose
@Suzanne: His point is that, as you say, they are terrorists and violent scum, and yet there is far far less disgust or admonishment directed at Hamas than at Israel, and that many of the calls for ceasefire are largely aimed at Israel and not at Hamas. I don’t think it’s meant to be “profound” but a necessary point that too many liberals will ignore or outright deny.
The problem of course is that some of those liberals, while they won’t say it explicitly, won’t condemn Hamas vocally because they don’t condemn Hamas internally. They’re stuck in the US-centric and extremely inaccurate colonizer lens and they won’t be talked out of it because it allows them to speak their pre-existing bigotries out loud.
Suzanne
@trollhattan:
Also, Hamas isn’t getting US aid. We can’t influence Hamas. We’re yelling at those who might listen, even if it’s only because they’re dependent on us.
Princess
I’d be shocked if they a) upheld Colorado and b) declared Trump was not immune. Leo’s Federalists are looking to set up a Franco or a Salazar, whether it is Trump or someone else, and the last thing they want is for that president to be constrained by the courts. Happy to be proven wrong of course.
Martin
Hamas will hold the hostages because it’s working. Seems pretty clear that the current request by Israel is in response to domestic pressure after IDF shot 3 hostages. Why give up that kind of leverage?
As much as I would like to see Hamas go away, Israel seems real fucking determined to make sure they don’t.
cmorenc
I was surprised to receive a support/fundraising text today from..,Nikki Haley! I have for decades been a registered D and have exclusively contributed to/volunteered for assorted D candidate campaigns, and never posted anything on social media suggesting i might be entertaining R-curious inclinations.
Was I an inadvertently mistaken inclusion in a mass text funding solicitation – or might there be some deliberate strategy here to seek support from d-leaning folks for whom stopping Trump is an existentially vital goal?
Don’t get me wrong – I would dislike many of the policies of a Haley administration, and it’s an understatement that I would vastly prefer that Biden wins a second term. Bur Haley is at least not batshit-insane, and i could sleep peacefully at night assured her administration would only favor loyal domestic plutocrats, not Putin. Kind of like her governorship of S C. Writ large.
Brachiator
It is interesting and scary to see how Trump consistently escalates his rhetoric to include his “political opponents” and immigrants into one bundle of demonization.
He is selling his base on the idea that he has a right to unleash a personal vendetta against those who oppose him.
And his base is eating it up.
However, every now and then I see reporters noting that some of his rallies are smaller and less well attended than before, and that sometimes his rhetoric lands with a thud.
He continues to lead in GOP polls, and his opposition is lame, but Trump may be losing his appeal to many of his former fans.
coin operated
@cmorenc:
Not Putin? LOL…she’ll follow suit soon enough. Just haggling over price…
WaterGirl
@cmorenc: Haley as president would still be a disaster, as I’m sure you know.
Urza
For those speculating on how the Supreme Court will rule on Colorado, I think the real question is what does Leonard Leo and their other billionaire funders want? Many of them aren’t onboard the Trump train, so maybe they encourage this as the safe off ramp. But at this point is there any reason to think any of the conservative 6 are actually making up their own minds without being told what to think first.
WaterGirl
@Martin: This may sound terrible, but right now I care more about what the U.S. and Biden do right now – the U.S. needs to vote along with the rest of the world on this – than I care whether the vote has any impact on Israel.
That said, of course I care what Israel does, but first things first.
Right now, the U.S. needs to show the world that there is some serious daylight between the U.S. and Israel.
Glidwrith
@Princess: And because Leo is looking for a dictator unrestrained by the courts, they will rule Shitgibbon doesn’t have immunity and can be struck from the ballot. SCOTUS has power now, is selfish in the majority and acts only to maintain its power, laws be damned. I am very curious to see how these situations resolve.
trollhattan
@cmorenc: Does Nikki believe she’s the “finally, a centrist Republican who can reach across the divide!” candidate disaffected Dems can vote for? I would not be surprised in the least. Nikki has a plump ego.
ETA I have been finding Trump car flag emails in my junk folder. That’s a first.
Trivia Man
@Princess: I don’t see him as constrained by the courts if he wins and assumes dictator role. I believe he sees them as a fig leaf. They will mostly agree with him and find some contortion to justify it. He then says “See! I was right! It is legal!”
If they somehow rule against him he ignores it, delays it, replaces the judge… whatever he feels like. And at that point it is too late.
PsiFighter37
Honestly, the main benefit of the Colorado Supreme Court’s ruling standing, if it only applies at the state level, is that it will cement the Colorado GOP to rump status, similar to the California GOP. Downballot support vanishes, so Boebert is almost certainly a sure fire loser in 2024.
I agree that it is a long shot that it is upheld – but, on the other hand, only Thomas and Alito seem to have complete fealty to Trumpism. The other conservative jurists might see it as an opportunity to rid their side of a malignant cancer for good. From a practical standpoint, it would be quite bad because Nikki Haley becomes the clear frontrunner, and as much as I despise her, she would paste Biden in a 1-on-1 matchup in 2024.
TF79
@cmorenc: I also got a Haley text, and similarly have never voted for an R in my life. I couldn’t tell if it was a real fund-raising text or a scam, and didn’t care enough to find out either way!
Martin
@David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch: They won’t even say that. They’ll say the enforcement mechanism is Congress’ acceptance of the electoral votes, not the SOS decisions to put them on the ballot.
And I think that’s a terrible ruling for an action which took place in the past. Republican voters deserve to be able to vote for a candidate that can actually hold the office, and Congress and the courts can make that determination today. It does voters a disservice to punt this, but the court will absolutely do that.
Betty Cracker
@Suzanne:
That’s true, but I’m glad Blinken made the point regardless. It’s not a perfect analogy, but denouncing Israel and insisting that they change tactics without calling out Hamas for its previous and ongoing atrocities is another species of the “only X has agency” mindset.
FelonyGovt
@cmorenc: My husband got one from Nikki Haley today as well! He is a long time Dem and was even briefly active in the Los Angeles County Democratic organization.
Scout211
I want you all to know that Trump says he’s not an insurrectionist.
So now that you know, we can all just move on. Right?
////
Trivia Man
@RepubAnon: “The leopard will never eat MY face!” says the court, perpetually ruling to give sharper teeth to the Leopards Eating Faces team. They believe they are untouchable and sage from all consequences.
WaterGirl
@Glidwrith: Yeah, I think their priorities are, in this order:
Jackie
Sounds like Burchett’s speaking from personal experience!🤔
Suzanne
@Alison Rose:
Israel is an actual country with a legitimate government, and much more military capability. I see the calls on them to cease war operations more in the vein of “with great(er) power comes great(er) responsibility”. And they are the ones responding and raining down missiles right now. 20,000 Gazans are dead, the vast majority of whom have fuck-all to do with this, and this needs to stop.
FWIW, I was also immediately and vociferously and obnoxiously opposed to the war in Iraq, too. For all the same reasons.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Agree. Where is this rule that we can only condemn people we have influence over?
Scout211
PSA for Honda owners.
I checked my VIN and it does include my 2018 Accord. Ugh.
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker: Right.
And Hamas did the Oct. 7 attack knowing how Netanyahu was likely to respond — don’t they bear any responsibility for that?
zhena gogolia
@Baud: It’s the same rule that leads us to trash Biden for the Republicans not supporting Ukraine.
trollhattan
@Scout211: The good news: they’ll get REALLY skilled at doing it.
Robin Goodfellow
@WaterGirl: I don’t remember the end of that movie. What are you hoping for?
“Turn the machines back on!”
Martin
@WaterGirl: The court appears to be ideological, not political. They aren’t the ones who raise up abortion as a wedge issue to get votes, they’re the ones that believe that garbage and the go blow up a clinic. I don’t think they care if it helps the GOP or not, they just want blow shit up and now they have the power to do so.
I think Thomas is a somewhat different case at least inasmuch as he’s willing to sell his vote.
CaseyL
@Princess: Thank you! I keep pointing out that the Federalist Society wants a despotic oligarchy, and SCOTUS is a Federalist Society entity at this point.
People who think SCOTUS cares more about preserving its own power and prerogatives are missing the whole point of the Federalist Society’s takeover.
SCOTUS is likely to throw out the Colorado decision, for any reason or, hell, none at all.
And it will deny Smith’s request for appellant review, because while the Federalist Society does indeed want Trump to have total immunity, it doesn’t want Biden to have total immunity. Rather than have to write an opinion that includes Trump but excludes Biden, SCOTUS can just refuse Smith’s motion without any comment at all.
PsiFighter37
@Jackie: Pure projection with those guys. I have to imagine the amount of kompromat the Russians collected from 2017-2020 is mindboggling.
Baud
@Scout211:
I preferred “I am not a witch.”
Martin
@zhena gogolia: I don’t think Oct 7 went the way Hamas expected, or how Netanyahu expected. I think both parties fucked up, caught the car, and are now playing the role they are expected to play. Everyone loses here.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: Hamas has agency, of course, but they don’t have international legitimacy on the same level as an actual government. The difference is really important. The way this line of argument goes, it seems to me that the conclusion they’re hoping that we draw is that it’s unfair to expect better behavior out of a powerful member of the world community than a group of scumbag terrorists. I don’t think that’s unfair.
Princess
@Trivia Man: I was predicting that Trump would win both, demonstrating that the president is not constrained by the courts. Maybe I misspoke in my post if that was not clear.
Suzanne
@Baud: You can condemn anyone you want. I don’t like the subtext, tho. Like if I don’t sit around typing emails or making phone calls to my congressperson denouncing Hamas, then I secretly don’t think what they did was all that bad? I do think it’s really fucken terrible!
WaterGirl
@Jackie: Wow, that he said that out loud seems like a big Joe Biden deal
I don’t think he would be saying that if he had fallen for it. But surely every government official is warned about that kind of thing, and he has recognized it when they have come at him.
Martin
@Suzanne: I would additionally argue that the nation which is colonizing the other nation is fundamentally the instigator in the conflict. If Israel was interested in peace, there wouldn’t be settlements. Period.
And it’s very clear that the thing Israel opposes more than Hamas is a one- or two-state solution. So what are the Palestinians supposed to do if Israel has no interest in ever resolving this conflict apart from annexation? I mean, we know how we answer that for Ukraine.
Brachiator
@Urza:
No.
Baud
@Suzanne:
You don’t have to criticize Hamas every time you criticize Israel, any more than someone who criticizes Hamas has to criticize Israel. But Blinken’s statement was about the international community and its leaders, and their official statements. They can’t be one-sided if they want to be taken seriously by Israel or the U.S.
HumboldtBlue
How you know Santa is a man.
He shows up late, eats your cookie, empties his sack, comes only once, calls you a ho and leaves while you’re asleep.
Baud
@Martin:
Israel and Palestinians have been fighting well before there were settlements.
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: Yeah, but I don’t see Hamas paying the price. I see the Palestinian people paying the price for wrongdoing on both sides.
To me, this feels like all the native women missing and killed, and society mostly ignoring the problem, because their lives don’t matter. x1000.
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: How about Qatar and Iran? Are they nation-states?
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl: We’re talking about the rhetoric that’s being flung around.
ETA: Only Israel has agency and responsibility. Hamas (and its sponsors Qatar and Iran) seem to have none.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
What do you consider Hamas paying the price?
hitchhiker
One branch makes the laws, one branch interprets them, and one enforces them. That’s how my teachers way in the way back taught it to me.
If the Executive branch just randomly gives the finger to the other two, that’s dictatorship-land, and the system has failed. They have to at least pretend to care what SCOTUS rules, and what the law is.
I have to believe that even this SCOTUS understands that allowing a criminal executive to shrug would mean ending their power as well. They can maneuver to help make trump president again, but they must know that he would have no compunctions about refusing to abide by anything they say after that.
Why would he? Who could stop him from doing whatever he wanted?
Suzanne
@Martin: I will leave aside all arguments about “colonizers”, because I think the British are the actual colonizers. I agree with you about the illegal settlers.
It’s just crazy to me, and it’s this weird purity test. Israel has the second-most-powerful military in the world, and they’ve killed roughly 10 Gazans for every Israeli lost on 10/7….. and the rhetoric out of my own leaders is honestly far more finger-point-y than I’d like.
Baud
If everyone agrees Hamas is scum, it should be a nothingburger for everyone to condemn them.
WaterGirl
@Martin:
What leads you to think that? It seems to me that it’s all playing out as Hamas and Bibi intended.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia:
Yeah, they are. And they suck. But they don’t get our endless support.
WaterGirl
@Martin:
and this:
Could not agree more.
Another Scott
@Baud:
OTOH, one could argue that the modern conflict began with Mandatory Palestine and the increase in Jewish immigration (and settlements).
Something something not even past.
Cheers,
Scott.
Betty Cracker
@Suzanne: I agree with your point about the power differential and expectations related to that. It’s an important difference. But Hamas governs Gaza and has for years, so I don’t think it’s right to dismiss them as a ragtag band of terrorists who aren’t a direct party in the conflict either. Some in the international community seem to do that.
Suzanne
I think most people have? Even most people who want a free Palestine have condemned their tactics.
Chris
@Bruce K in ATH-GR:
Thanks, much appreciated!
WaterGirl
@Baud: I think both of these things can be true.
.
If Israel wanted a solution, they wouldn’t allow any more settlements and they would be moving the people already settled there.
Baud
@Another Scott:
I thought settlements referred to Israeli West Bank settlements.
As far as British history goes, it seems that’s a fait accompli. Israel exists and there’s no undoing that.
Bill Arnold
@Martin:
Not just domestic pressure, either. That incident is a pretty strong sign that IDF personnel are regularly killing people in Gaza who are attempting to surrender. (Law of Armed Conflict)
oldgold
The Supremes are not going to affirm the Colorado opinion. And, they are not going to have a hard time doing it. They are going to rely on Section 5 of the 14th Amendment.
“Section 5. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.”
Ruckus
@cmorenc:
I’m not sure I’d trust any republican not to join in the parade of stupid.
Sure I’d also bet that there might be a part of the right side of the aisle that hasn’t taken the hook/bait/rod and reel/boat/fisherman in one disgusting bite or even in many bites. But the amount I’d bet would be one copper penny. And I’ve have to see some actual proof.
mrmoshpotato
Neither. Christmas Eve will be at my brother-in-law’s cousin’s place, and that’s all coordinated.
As for the news, I think I need to take another break from it.
Time for some camping videos on YouTube.
Also, I could go for a couple day polar vortex. I got good windows and steam radiators. Stop with these 40ish days in December.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
I’m not defending settlements. But to suggest that’s the cause of the conflict seems wrong. You could say they make the conflict more intractable, which I think is accurate.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Then it should never be an issue to keep doing so.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: I am really sensitive to the rhetoric that echoes the Israeli right-wing’s mode of discussion, as if any criticism of Israel’s terrible government or military is anti-Semitic. I don’t believe that, and, quite frankly, I’m offended by it.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Hamas is getting what they want, which I believe is for the world to start to see Israel – under the current government – as cruel and monstrous. If Hamas weakens Israel, Hamas gets stronger.
Hamas does not appear to give a shit about the Palestinian people.
Martin
@Baud: Of course. But Israel’s current goals are the annexation of Palestine just as Russia’s goals are for Ukraine. They’ve taken a different trajectory, but the goal is the same, and Hamas is beneficial to Israel toward that goal.
I don’t think it’s surprising that the US came out pretty quickly to say ‘no Israel will not be a caretaker government of Gaza’. Nobody is under any illusions of what the strategy here is. So put yourself in the situation of the Palestinians. Israel is colonizing your land, backed by nukes, and has no avenue for a peaceful solution. What do you do?
Israel cuts off all avenues other than violence and then complain when there is violence. I’ll give Israel the benefit of the doubt here when they give Palestinians a non-violent avenue to pursue.
mrmoshpotato
@Ruckus:
Is this too long for a rotating tag?
WaterGirl
@hitchhiker: If any branch tells the others to fuck off, the system has failed.
And we are definitely in that territory, though I feel we have a window in which to course correct. Not a big window, however.
frosty
@cmorenc: I’m getting Haley texts too. Maybe the hacked the NGPVAN database? I get texts from every Dem running for anything anywhere.
Princess
If you’re serious about wanting a ceasefire in any conflict, you need to put pressure on both sides. Pressure on only one side means the other side can demand anything they want, no matter whether it is practicable at all for the other side to fulfill (for good or bad reasons). The result is usually no ceasefire. That is, if a ceasefire is actually what you want. Right now, Hamas is facing military pressure but they obviously think the political benefit to the of the world watching Palestinians be killed is worth continuing. It probably helps that their political leaders are elsewhere.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
They could both end up weaker. I don’t pretend to know what Hamas wants.
Martin
@WaterGirl: Hamas is more interested in hurting Israel than helping Palestine. Unfortunately, it’s pretty clear that the current Israeli leadership has the same view. From what I’ve seen from their news broadcasts, that’s somewhat widely shared. Calling for the extermination of Gaza is not unacceptable TV news panel banter.
Josie
@cmorenc:
I got the Haley fundraising text also. I have voted Democratic for the last 50-60 years, so was a bit surprised to see it.
piratedan
@zhena gogolia: it’s like the entire Hamas provocation didn’t exist and that there aren’t hostages from multiple nations still unaccounted for.
Not going to quibble that I don’t believe that the IDF and Israel aren’t responsible for how they’re screwing up, they are, but sometimes appearances matter and context-free resolutions only serve to fuck things up later.
I’m pretty sure that one of the only ways to resolve this is to have some of the following happen:
remove Netanyahu from power
stop having certain countries continually fund Hamas with money and weapons
restore a Palestinian state with political control over their own affairs that isn’t a front for a terrorist organization.
Baud
@Princess:
Yeah, even if we lack influence over Hamas, other countries we can work with do have some influence.
Martin
@Princess: The US is putting pressure on Hamas by calling for PA to take control over all of Palestine. The US wants Hamas out of the picture. Problem is the West Bank population have shifted their allegiance from PA to Hamas based on Israel’s actions. Hamas probably has more support now than ever.
Suzanne
@Baud:
What’s the point of it?
It’s the same rhetorical tactic that was used to mock and belittle a shit-ton of wise Americans who correctly deduced that destroying Afghanistan and Iraq was a terrible response to terrorist attack. That, no matter how wronged we were that day, warfare created far more problems than it solved. It was counter-productive. It put our goals further out of reach.
Criticism of Israel, at this point, is mostly in this vein.
Frankensteinbeck
I predict the Supreme Court will overturn the Colorado decision 9-0. Even the liberals won’t want the precedent of someone kicked off the ballot without being convicted.
I admit I’m not totally sure, because as was pointed out to me, this is exactly the situation the framers meant.
Baud
@Suzanne:
The point is to move people towards a cease fire. If the international community is reluctant to stand with Israel against a terrorist attack, then Israel is correct in deciding to take matters into its own hands.
ETA: This is nothing like Afghanistan or Iraq.
WaterGirl
@Baud: I wasn’t intending to suggest that settlements are the root cause. But settlements are a huge part of why the problem is less solvable today than it was some number of years ago.
Bibi clearly does not want a 2-state solution, and apparently takes no issue with genocide as long as it’s not jews who are being erased.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
I have no illusions about Bibi. He needs to go.
misterpuff
So has Trump or his minions actually filed an appeal of the Colorado ruling yet or are they doing a Friday before the holiday dump?
WaterGirl
@mrmoshpotato: no!
Central Planning
@cmorenc:
I got that text too!
WaterGirl
@Suzanne: It’s a strawman aimed at silencing legitimate criticism.
Suzanne
@Baud:
I don’t follow this logic. IMO, international opinion of Israel has no bearing on whether or not it’s acceptable to rain down missiles and white phosphorous on an impoverished and trapped civilian population. (It’s not.)
If we want to push on Israel, and Jordan, Egypt, etc. want to push on Hamas via Qatar or Iran…. Great. That’s, at least, a strategy.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: Then what does the slogan “from the river to the sea” mean?
WaterGirl
@Baud: Yesterday!
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: Who here has said that, or anything close to it?
Baud
@Suzanne:
Israeli war tactics is a different question than the existence of the overall conflict.
Suzanne
Yeah, it is. Exactly right.
WaterGirl
@Suzanne:
I think that’s at least part of what Biden is already doing.
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: I didn’t get the impression that Suzanne was suggesting that we are doing that on Balloon Juice.
But Israel is certainly doing that as a way to silence criticism of their brutal behavior since Oct 7.
JWR
@Suzanne:
Damn straight! In fact I’ve found most of Blinken’s statements profoundly un-profound, almost as if they were penned by some IDF propagandist, and this, too, must stop.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia: Baud just said that “If the international community is reluctant to stand with Israel against a terrorist attack, then Israel is correct in deciding to take matters into its own hands.”
When they “take matters into their own hands” (for whatever reason, not sure if they think we don’t stand with them firmly enough?), we’ve seen quite a lot of disproportionate death and destruction and misery. I don’t know why I have to earn the right to say “please stop dropping missiles on kids”.
Baud
@Suzanne:
No one is victimizing you here.
The goal is to end the conflict, not change Israeli war tactics. Or so I thought.
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: I thought the discussion was about public discourse calling for a ceasefire without mentioning the responsibility of Hamas. I hear a lot of “ceasefire!” but not a lot about what happens after a ceasefire in terms of Hamas having the capability to repeat Oct. 7. Ceasefire — then what?
twbrandt
@cmorenc: I got a text from Nikki today as well, even though I have never donated to repub candidates nor given my number to any right-leaning org (or left-leaning org for that matter). Don’t where she got my number from.
cmorenc
@WaterGirl:
True, but more like a damaging Cat-2 hurricane than the cat-5 total catastrophe that a second Trump Administration would be.
I suspect the source of how this curious Haley solicitation text sent to me was my good neighbors across the street down at the beach in southeastern NC – they are formerly SC residents who are never-Trumper Republicans. We’ve had some extensive friendly conversations in which they have maintained that while they could not, would not, ever vote for Trump in 2024, nonetheless couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Biden, either – and plan to vote 3P. I’m hoping I can persuade them how counterproductive 3P protest votes have historically been, inadvertently aiding the candidate most destructive to their respective principles/policy goals. But we’ll doubtless have several more long friendly conversations between now and Nov 2024.
Suzanne
I don’t know that there’s a way to do one without the other. The current Israeli war tactics practically ensure that the conflict will continue and be bloodier (which is why this is like Afghanistan and Iraq). There isn’t a military solution to this conflict.
cmorenc
@TF79: No, it’s not a scam – I took a chance and clicked on the link, and it goes to a legitimate Nikki Haley for President website. But that still leaves the curious question of why some of us firm Ds are now included in her targeting.
Betty Cracker
@Suzanne: We agree there too. I despise Netanyahu and Israel’s right-wing government, and I don’t think anti-Zionism = antisemitism. There are bad actors on both sides of that conflict aplenty, and decent people just trying to live their lives getting killed and terrorized. My opinion of the situation is that it sucks.
Anotherlurker
@Suzanne: I lost an old friend because I criticized Israel . His response to my criticism was to call me an antisemite.
Jackie
@PsiFighter37: The part where he said “Why in the world would good conservatives vote for crazy stuff…” caught my attention. He obviously wasn’t talking about Democrats.
Bill Arnold
@Baud:
Many argue that Israeli war tactics include black-letter-law-of-armed-conflict war crimes, and that those tactics should change.
The IDF have killed around 20K non-militant civilians in Gaza so far (many corpses and disassembled bodies still buried under rubble from >50 kilotons of bombardment).
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia:
And that’s a valid point.
I just object to the whole tenor than Blinken is bringing here, because it is absolutely in line with what we hear out of Bibi in terms of silencing criticism. I hate that piece of shit, and I think he’s a liar. I hate that we have just given the Israeli government, like, Scrooge McDuck-esque amounts of American taxpayer money and turned away and went LA LA LA LA LA while they expanded settlements for decades. I fucken object to it.
I would also note that we don’t hear a lot of sensible discussion from Israel about what comes after bombing the shit out of Gaza.
schrodingers_cat
OT PSA.
If you have an artist in your life or an artist yourself. Blick has some great sales and free shipping for some sets and free shipping $50 and above. Blick has better prices than Amazon for paper and canvas. And many other specialized supplies.
Link
ETA: I am not paid by Blick in case you were wondering. But I did get myself some nibs, inks, gesso and paper.
WaterGirl
@Anotherlurker: I suspect that only small-minded people can seriously believe that if you criticize something Israel is doing that makes you an anti-semite.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: I think it depends on what you say about Israel. If you say that it doesn’t have a right to exist then that is pretty antisemitic.
Princess
@Baud: Yeah. I feel like the goalposts are moving all over here. I thought the original criticism was of Blinken urging other nations to put political pressure on Hamas.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
It really seems like both sides want just revenge porn and the settlements are just the Israeli way of going about it.
Bill Arnold
@WaterGirl:
A lot of Jews (especially older) are very twitchy about criticism of the government of Israel and/or its actions, especially by non-Jews. (The current Rabbi of the [reform temple] that I pay dues to is extremely opposed to the current governing coalition in Israel and its policies, but he generally gets a pass, as do those who oppose Zionism for religious reasons.)
Baud
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
That seems accurate.
Another Scott
Here’s the whole transcript of the press “availability” yesterday that the Twitter video comes from:
His opening statement starts with Ukraine, then goes to China, then to problem-solving general, then to Israel and Hamas.
Here’s the question he’s responding to:
From Michele Keleman (of NPR):
And here’s the followup by “Leon”:
Personally, I think the press does the viewers / listeners / and readers a real disservice when they report someone’s response without giving the question. Blinken was specifically asked about the world “blaming the U.S. and Israel”, so it’s understandable why he gave the answer he did.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
@Bill Arnold:
Criticism of Isreal’s government isn’t antisemitic, but it will attract antisemites. Same with criticism of Arab people and anti-Muslim bigots. So people of good faith have to be careful about that.
oldgold
@Frankensteinbeck: “Conviction” has nothing to do with it.
Betty Cracker
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: You’re not wrong. Both groups have been served poorly by terrible leaders for decades now.
Suzanne
@Princess: My objection is to the implication that I hear in Blinken’s words, that other countries shouldn’t be bringing pressure to bear on Israel for a ceasefire, that they should be pressuring Hamas to do it instead….. and the implication that those other countries oppose Israel (and in effect, Jews) because they are pressuring Israel to stop waging war.
Now, maybe I’m hearing that this time because we’ve heard similar rhetoric before. Again, I’m sensitive to it.
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: He never said that. Read the transcript above a few comments. He says “as well.” Not that people shouldn’t be putting pressure on Israel. I’m sure they are doing that.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat:
To be clear, I said “if you criticize something Israel is doing”, not if you criticize its right to exist.
Is it possible to be anti-zionist, and not believe that Israel has the right to it’s own country, and not be an anti-semite?
WaterGirl
@Princess:
It doesn’t seem to me that people are moving goalposts, so much as the conversation has widened from the original comment about Blinken to a bigger conversation about the war, the way it is being fought, how people think it’s being handled, and how folks would like to see it go from here.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia: You are right that his fuller answer was better. I watched the clip above but the fuller answer is better.
He avoided answering the question about the “red line”, though. I hope the Biden Admin is more forceful behind closed doors than they are in public.
Ruckus
@cmorenc:
They don’t likely have your voting history, only your party affiliation.
They also might not get any more info than your name/state/and maybe city.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Thank you for all of that!
WaterGirl
@Suzanne: To me, Blinken isn’t suggesting that the world should be pressuring Hamas INSTEAD.
To me, Blinken is suggesting that the world should be pressuring Hamas, TOO.
edit: I see that zhena got there before I did.
Omnes Omnibus
I see this thread is going well.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: I did my bit to spread Christmas cheer.
TheOtherHank
I got a Haley text too. I think her team did the modern equivalent of war-dialing and sent a text to every possible phone number. Landlines wouldn’t go through, but she will hit every cell phone and maybe pick up donations from people who aren’t on any lists.
I deleted the text and reported it as spam
schrodingers_cat
There are some activists on the left who have the Rod Dreher syndrome, they latch on to different movements while blathering about late stage capitalism. They always center themselves and cause immense damage to the movements they are supposedly advocating for. And to Democratic party’s electoral chances.
Last election cycle it was Black Lives Matter which morphed into Defund the Police. This time around it is the Israel-Palestinian issue.
They are incredibly racist too, witness the watermelon is too a Palestinian symbol of resistance arguments. And they have been only protesting against elected Ds, mostly black and Jewish elected Ds. Go to Dan Goldman’s Twitter account to see what I mean.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I actually do think it’s going well.
People sharing their thoughts and opinions, some agreement, some disagreement. No one shouting and no one calling people names or getting mad or telling people they don’t know what they are talking about.
I think that makes for a good thread. You? I would love to hear your thoughts on why it’s not, if that’s what you think. I always learn something from your perspective.
Suzanne
@WaterGirl: I mean, we could always talk about how obnoxious eversor is again. That always seems to bring us together in holiday cheer.
Other favorite standby topics:
1) Ross Douthat and the hilarity of Catholic guilt
2) Weird plastic surgery procedures
WaterGirl
@Suzanne: I would like to never have another thread about eversor ever again.
Suzanne
@WaterGirl: Me either. I never participate, they’re boring.
ETA: I am, however, absolutely here for another discussion about Ivanka Trump’s fucked-up face.
Harrison Wesley
@WaterGirl:
@Suzanne:
Sorry, but I believe keeping internet civility should prompt people to respond to that person with “Thanks for sharing,” just like they say in AA meetings. Or not. Whatevs.
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: Oh, I missed that.
twbrandt
@WaterGirl:
That person is the only one I have ever pied.
NotMax
#Suzanne
Peanut butter: creamy or crunchy?
Pineapple on pizza: yea or nay?
:)
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: @Suzanne: Don’t mind me then. It appears that coming to the fully formed thread and reading it rather than participating in its formation left me with a different impression of it then you have.
WaterGirl
@Suzanne: Oh, have we done that recently? Or has she gotten new work down?
I figure I’ll put up a Festivus thread if no one else does, or maybe you can’t have enough Festivus threads? I would think that being catty about Ivanka could be popular there. :-)
WaterGirl
@Harrison Wesley: I have never noticed you saying that to other people here, is that something you say regularly?
Shana
@cmorenc: I got one too. I have also received DeSantis texts recently . I think they just buy shitty lists. I’ve been a Democrat precinct captain for the past 16 years. No way in hell I’d consider voting for any of these guys.
Harrison Wesley
@WaterGirl: At AA meetings, yes.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I was serious; I would love to hear your description of the thread.
WaterGirl
@Harrison Wesley: I meant here on Balloon Juice.
WaterGirl
@Shana:
Maybe we should put together some random, shitty lists and sell them for big bucks as a fundraiser for our political causes!
Harrison Wesley
@WaterGirl: No, AFAIK there isn’t a BJ online AA meeting here. I guess I just don’t get as irritated at that person as a lot of others seem to. The strange anti-Christian tirades seem to bubble up no matter what the topic of the post is; I find that more weird than annoying.
schrodingers_cat
@Harrison Wesley: He/she is an odd duck.
Gvg
@Suzanne: Hamas is going to be killed if they surrender. I mean we can hold trials with evidence, but they did do a lot of murders, their is a lot of evidence, and frankly I think they were thugs and killers of their own subjects before current events and if anyone with real power was really protecting the Palestinians, they would be in jail or dead as mafia long ago. So I don’t think they can surrender, and everyone know it.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl:
It is, perhaps, best if I don’t I probably shouldn’t have made my first comment.
WaterGirl
@Harrison Wesley: I don’t bother reading him.
What annoys me is that it derails the thread and it becomes all about him, which is not interesting to most of us at all.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Nothing wrong at all with your first comment. I just really wanted to see it from your perspective, which was different from mine.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gvg: The proposal that is out there calls for asylum in Algeria IIRC. I would presume, though, that over time Israel would to them when they did to the Munich perpetrators.
Harrison Wesley
@WaterGirl: I can dig that.
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl: I know I’m one of the major participants in this thread, but that said, i see nothing wrong with it. We’re working things out.
Suzanne
@WaterGirl: She got buccal fat removal in her cheeks!
FERDALUVVAPETE, I don’t get why anyone has that done. That’s how you make yourself look like Melisandre when you’re old.
WaterGirl
@Suzanne: Just shooting herself in the foot about 10 years from now. She’ll probably have the fat added back in then.
WaterGirl
Obviously nothing is done until it’s done, but things look more promising than they did just a few hours ago.
WaterGirl
@WaterGirl: This is from the same fellow who was super negative about this yesterday, and even seemed quite disheartened earlier today.
japa21
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’ve been popping in and out so semi following along. A couple instances of it getting heated. Some people have very intense feelings about the subject matter. But, it appears to have actually reached a somewhat smooth landing.
I find that often, when one individual has a tendency to not allow themselves to get emotionally involved in a subject and tries to discuss things with a nonjudgmental approach is conversing with another individual who has a more intense emotional reaction to the subject matter, there is frequently conflict at some level but it can be dissipated as the discussion goes on.
A thank you to Another Scott for providing some needed context.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Revenge is a dish best served cold?
Harrison Wesley
@WaterGirl: Fingers crossed, or – as wingnuts say – “thoughts and prayers.”
Omnes Omnibus
@japa21: Yes. That is true, and it is probably what I reacted to while reading.
Anyway
I thought water melon was an established Palestinian symbol — goes back to when Israel banned the flying of the Palestinian flag . Palestinians have gotten around that by using the water melon icon.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: I don’t know about best, but I don’t see Israelis of any political stripe letting bygones be bygones. And it is certainly more appropriate than the current campaign.
schrodingers_cat
@Anyway: In the American context showing up with watermelon placards to protest Hakeem Jeffries is in poor taste. YMMV.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Agree.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: My mileage does not vary on that one.
I believe it was Hakeem and Schumer, both Jewish. Very deliberate.
On the bright side, a whole lot of people are showing us exactly who they are. There’s no walking back.
schrodingers_cat
How is this helping Palestine?
Scout211
That’s definitely unfortunate, but one commenter alone cannot derail a thread. The derailment comes when commenters respond.
I encourage the commentariat to ignore, pie and avoid.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: Especially as it is perfectly legal to have a Palestinian flag here. No need to send potential mixed signals. OTOH, I haven’t found that the pro-Palestinian protests have been good at message discipline or avoiding overreach.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I grew up Catholic, but I am not a big bible person.
I do, however, remember this one:
“Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord.”
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: At best I can say that DSA is very white and very clueless.
schrodingers_cat
OT Art supply update: I am getting white fountain pen ink. That should be cool!
Harrison Wesley
@schrodingers_cat: True. If you’re going to employ symbols, they’d damn well better be ones that people recognize within the context of what you’re trying to promote. If I saw a bunch of white people here in America waving around watermelon pics at a demonstration, I’d think they were the Klan.
Gin & Tonic
@Harrison Wesley: I find it interesting that the two people you chose to lecture about civility are both women.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: Nit – Hakeem Jeffries “is a lifelong member of the Cornerstone Baptist Church” according to Wikipedia.
:-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Harrison Wesley
@Gin & Tonic: I have been grievously misunderstoond! I’m sorry if I have given you the impression that I give a tin-plated shit about civility. If there was any message, it wasn’t a finger-wagging lecture (I leave that up to my betters here) but just an admonition not to get worked up over nonsense.
Another Scott
News.UN.org:
It sounds like they’re making some progress though, at least on getting more aid in.
Fingers crossed.
Cheers,
Scott.
Gin & Tonic
@Harrison Wesley: To-may-to, to-mah-to.
Burnspbesq
@David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch:
That’s probably the least likely outcome. There WAS a trial; the trial court found that the evidence that Trump participated in an insurrection was clear and convincing.
There is a non-frivolous argument that the expedited process denied Trump due process, but I’d be happy to argue that the Colorado Legislature had a rational basis for concluding that an expedited process was warranted in light of the compressed timeline for ballot challenges.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, …
“Jerkules”
[ snort! ] [ rofl! ]
Cheers,
Scott.
Harrison Wesley
@Gin & Tonic: I’m sorry, I can’t let that pass. “Toe-may-toe/toe-mah-toe.”
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Huh. Thanks for letting me know.
Gin & Tonic
@Harrison Wesley: Like the difference between “lecturing” and “admonishing”?
Miss Bianca
@cmorenc:
You really feel assured of that? I don’t.
@PsiFighter37: Not seeing it, myself.
Kay
Miss Bianca
@twbrandt: Now I’m starting to feel almost insulted that I *haven’t* gone one!//
YY_Sima Qian
Blinken is not wrong, but the U.S. has long lost the room on this one, & he comes off as whining to run cover for Israel. That is the cost of the “bear hug” strategy that the Biden Administration has adopted.
In the last UNGA vote affirming Palestinian right to self determination, only the U.S., Israel, Nauru & Micronesia voted against, just about every U.S. ally & partner voted for. In the UNGA vote before that calling for immediate ceasefire, only 12 nations voted against, the U.S., Israel, & half a dozen Pacific Island nations.
If anyone wonders why countries such as Nauru, Palau, Tuvalu, the Federated States of Micronesia & the Marshall Islands tend to vote w/ the U.S. in the UNGA, it is because they are part of a formal U.S. sphere of influence through the Compact of Free Association, dating back to the end of WW II. Their national defense is run by the US, & they do not have completely independent foreign policy.
Geminid
@Lyrebird: The six House Democrats who called on President Biden to effect “an immediate and significant shift in Israeli military strategy” are Reps. Jason Crow (CO), Mikie Sherrill (NJ), Chrissy Houlahan (PA), Seth Moulton (MA), Elise Slotkin (MI) and Abigail Spanberger (VA).
An excerpt from their letter:
All these Representatives are on record as strong supporters of Israel; that and their former military or CIA service is why the letter was seen as significant. Crow is a former Army Ranger, Sherrill a Navy helicopter pilot, Houlihan an Air Force officer and Moulton was a Marine Corps officer. Slotkin and Spanberger worked in the CIA, Slotkin as an analyst and Spanberger as a case officer. All but Moulton were elected in 2018.
Unlike some of their colleagues, they did not call for a immediate and lasting ceasefire, and they share the goal of “destroying the terrorist organization Hamas;” they say that Israel is going about it the wrong way.
Kay
Liar.
Miss Bianca
@Bill Arnold:
Curious about that – I seem to recall reading a book years ago that suggested there were some Hasidic groups that opposed Zionism – or, rather, the concept that Zion necessarily had to be located in the current state of Israel. In fact, they were arguing that America fit the bill for the Promised Land far better than Israel/Palestine did!
I found that a fascinating thought.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: I was surprised by the letter. As you say, all of the signees hold very mainstream natsec views (one might say “Blobbish”), on the hawkish or “muscular” side.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne:
Sounds like a great punk band name.
Geminid
@Omnes Omnibus: Algeria is about as safe a place those Hamas fighters could find. It is a very insular country with a strong military and security establishment, a “hard target.” Israeli assasins might operate there but with difficulty. That is why the Saudis proposed it. The Saudi government does not support Hamas but they do not want to see Israel destroy more of Gaza fighting them.
The Saudi proposal also called for a multinational peacekeeping force in Gaza with a Security Council mandate, and a 4-year “technocratic” government. After that the Palestinian Authority would be put in charge. The Saudis evidently believe the PA is not up to the task right now but could be in 4 years.
I first saw this proposal reported on an Israeli Twitter account. The responses ranged from “No Way! We need to kill them all” to “Do it! This will save our soldiers lives.”
Kim Walker
This is sort of off topic, but I wanted to share. I drove down from Ontario today on Rt 37 through northern New York and then down to Buffalo. I do this at least twice a year. I look for political signage. I saw two trump signs and one of those was left over from 2020. No bumper stickers. This was slightly shocking to me, as on previous trips republican signs were thick on the ground. On the whole, I felt quite positive about it. Tomorrow, I’ll head further south, keep my eyes open and try to report my observations.
wjca
Given the huge variety of people who seem to have all gotten it once (me included), this seems like the most probable explanation.
wjca
As long as you don’t put peanut butter on pizza, you’re golden.
YY_Sima Qian
BTW, I actually find the delay in the UNSC vote & Biden’s engagement encouraging. It appears the Biden Administration is trying to avoid having to use another veto & be the sole vote against in the Council again, & trying to get to at least abstaining.
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: This is pretty much the same group who, after the Trump/Zelenskyy phone call came to light in October of 2020, changed their position on Impeachment from no to yes.
Speaker Pelosi had been resisting calls to impeach Trump from other caucus members for months, because she knew impeachment would fail in the Senate and believed it would endanger Democrats in battleground districts. These Democrats were running in purple districts and Pelosi figured that if they were willing, so was she.
NotMax
@wjca
Reese’s Pizza Butter Cups?
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: The US is also pushing for another “pause” in the fighting accompanied by a hostage exchange. CIA Director Burns and Mossad chief Barnea have presented a proposal to the Qatari Prime Minister whereby Israel would agree to suspend operations for seven days if Hamas exchanges 40 of their hostages for a number of Israel’s Palestinian prisoners, possibly on a 1 for 10 basis (last time it was 1 for 3).
Hamas continues to insist that it will not release any more hostages until Israel accepts a permanent ceasefire. It seems like the Qataris still hope to get them to agree to a pause with hostage exchanges, in order to ease the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
Bill Arnold
@Miss Bianca:
Yes, I too had various Hassidic groups in mind but did not recall the details.
Wikipedia: does, though: Current positions of Haredi groups – Groups which do not recognize Israel
I have interacted with. Satmar. FWIW they are 100 percent Republican, at least they were several decades ago.
Bill Arnold
@Kim Walker:
Please do. That is very encouraging, though it is a little early for signage.
Geminid
@Kim Walker: I’m not seeing any Trump signs here in Central Virginia either. I saw plenty 4 years ago. Some had Confederate flags next to them, which I thought was poor salesmanship.
NotMax
@Geminid
Many jurisdictions have regulations governing how long before and how soon after any election such candidate or campaign approved signs are permitted to be displayed.
wjca
Came across a car today which had a “TRUMP 2024” decal on the back window.
Gotta appreciate another driver who puts up a “You are following a moron” warning sign.
MinuteMan
@oldgold:
You’re thinking logically: start with the axioms and go forward, but it’s pretty clear that often the judicial process is to pick a conclusion and then rationalize that conclusion by cherry-picking things that support the conclusion.
Glory b
@Suzanne: BUT then what? Hamas leaders have said they plan on many 10/7s & will kill Jews & Americans in cities all over the world.
It a conundrum to me, but Bibi is going to dig in his heels because it hurts Biden & he knows Trump will let him do what je wants, up to & inviting annexing Gaza. Continuing on war mode buys him more time in office.
The US withdrawing from Israel means that it will be immediately attacked by Iran, the Houthis, etc. For better or worse, it’s surrounded by enemies. Bobi has nukes & says he’d use them. I’m not sure what to do here.
Glory b
@Kay: Of course. “I don’t remember” is classic for not getting popped with lying under oath.
Glory b
@Glory b:
@Glory b: Bibi
Paul in KY
@Alison Rose: It is a good point. Hamas should be vilified as much as IDFers that commit atrocities. Hamas, in general, is a vile organization (IMO).
Paul in KY
@Princess: I’m pretty sure they will rule against the ‘Presidential Immunity’ thing. Cause if they did rule he’s immune, I know someone else who’s immune too…Just sayin….
They will probably wuss out on the 14th Amendment thing. Say he has to be actually convicted of insurrecting, before anyone can try that gambit.
Paul in KY
@cmorenc: Maybe she’s thinking your Anti-TFG stance might allow you to throw some coin her way? Or maybe you being ex-military has her thinking you’re a GQPer?
Paul in KY
@Suzanne: I assume you also think Hamas is scum too? Just with less agency.
Paul in KY
@Suzanne: IMO, there’s nothing wrong with pointing out, just for the record, that Hamas is ‘scumbag terrorists’.
Paul in KY
@Martin: IMO, they need to call Israel’s bluff and be ‘model future Palestinian citizens’. Then they need to get World opinion on their side (for doing this) and get Israel shamed into doing the 2 state solution.
That’s the only way they’ll ever get it: Call Israel’s bluff that they can’t function as a peaceful neighbor that has control over it’s citizens. That of course means the extinction of Hamas and other nutwads.
Any resistance has to be peaceful & nonviolent (as India did back in the day)
Paul in KY
@Suzanne: I don’t think their military is 2nd most powerful. You have PRC, Great Britain, France, Russian assholes. I would go with 6th, maybe 5th.
Pedant away!
Paul in KY
@Baud: Agree. Israel is here to stay and any Arab/Palestinian who thinks differently is completely mad/deluded.
Paul in KY
@Martin: The Palestinians have a non-violent avenue. It’s just that the current Israeli government thinks pigs will fly before they can do it.
Paul in KY
@Bill Arnold: Fuck em. I (a non-Jew) can criticize any government I wish. I certainly separate the current (and past) governments of Israel from the Jewish people.
Paul in KY
@Suzanne: That’s a complete misread (IMO) of what he’s saying. He’s just saying that when you rightly condemn the IDF for indiscriminate killing and stuff, that you ought to also put in the condemnation a bit for Hamas as well.
Paul in KY
@WaterGirl: To be so, theoretically, you would have to agree that the Jewish people deserve and should have their own nation state (if they wish), just not Israel in the present location.
If you feel that the Jewish people do not deserve and should never have their own nation state (if they wish), then (IMO) you are Anti-Semitic (as applied towards Jews) to some degree.
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s been their whole MO for so many years. They step on their dicks at all opportunities. They seem to have no concept of ‘good PR’ and how it can help your cause.
Paul in KY
@Glory b: No way Iran is going to attack Israel! Iranians, in general, don’t give a shit about Arabs and Sunni Arabs at that.
Israel may act like they would, but that’s just to get more defense funding from us (IMO).