ABC News found a 2015 German TV segment that examined a grotesque ritual popular with ultra-conservative Christians: purity balls. Father-daughter pairs dress up in wedding-like attire to attend balls, which culminate in daughters signing a “purity pledge” promising they won’t have sex before marriage.
Purity balls are creepy and gross but not uncommon among far-right evangelicals. The German TV segment is only significant eight years later because the father-daughter pair featured on the program is current Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives Mike Johnson (R-LA) and his then 13-year-old daughter.
Johnson, his wife Kelly, and his daughter participated in interviews for the segment, which was posted on the German news channel’s website.
The news segment also features interviews with Johnson’s daughter, who is now in her 20s, and shows her at the purity ball pledging to her father “to make a commitment to God, myself, my family, my friends, my future husband, and my future children … to a lifetime of purity, including sexual purity,” in between shots of Johnson nodding along in agreement.
In one brief interview clip, Johnson’s wife Kelly Johnson, a Christian counselor, told the German news outlet, “We don’t talk to her about contraception. Sex before marriage is simply out of the question.”
For no particular reason, I looked up the states with the highest rates of “nonmarital” births. Louisiana was #2 after Mississippi. Interesting!
I don’t speak German, but my guess is the tone of the TV segment is “look at these weird puritanical parents — the poor kids!” That’s the correct tone. I grew up Southern Baptist-adjacent (my mom’s father was a preacher), and the “purity” mindset is coercive, unrealistic, infantilizing and downright abusive, IMO.
There’s nothing wrong with parents encouraging adolescents to wait until they are more mature and emotionally ready for intimate relationships. Most of us who are parents have probably had awkward conversations with our offspring communicating that idea.
That’s not what’s happening with the purity ball set. What’s happening is men are facilitating a future transfer of “undamaged goods” to other men. They’re protecting the breeding stock.
In the article, ABC News quotes Linda Kay Klein, who wrote “Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free.” Here’s her take on purity culture:
“In my book I talk about eternal girlhood,” Klein said. “There’s this way in which purity culture attempts to create this eternal girlhood among girls — you never really grow up, you never really have headship over your own life. You ultimately are there to be guided by and to support and to champion and to be led by somebody greater than you: a man.”
“People often think about it from a purity ball perspective, like, ‘Oh, that’s creepy.’ You’ve got the father with the daughter in a wedding-like ballgown,” Klein said. “But I actually find myself also thinking about what that means when you have your headship transferred over to your husband and what the girl has internalized from that.”
Well, yeah. And kudos to Klein for escaping that hyper-patriarchal shit-show.
I hope the country is as determined and fortunate as Klein is. A fanatic like Johnson would absolutely establish a Republic of Gilead if given half a chance. Therefore, it’s disturbing that such a zealot is now second in line to the presidency. To paraphrase something Mr. Cole once said, I’d be willing to serve as human bubble wrap for Biden and Harris to prevent Johnson from moving up.
Open thread.
Suzanne
A fairly common statement in right-wing religious circles is “my wife is my oldest daughter”.
It’s as gross as it’s sounds.
eversor
The Old and New Testament along with Christ himself are very clear on gender roles and patriarchy. As we are going to keep Christianity we need this. Not only that, it should be law as we are keeping Christianity. More of this!
VeniceRiley
@Suzanne: Eeeeeeeew.
Mormons are horrible this way, but even a purity ball would be seen as creepy, unless it’s FLDS and then all bets are off.
West of the Rockies
My hope for my own Queer kid in terms of their sex/romantic life? That it’s mutually physically and emotionally satisfying, consensual, and everything they hoped it would be. If those conditions are met, then when it begins and who they choose to involve themselves with are not my concern.
West of the Rockies
@Suzanne:
Gross. I’ve never heard that one before. Of course, Mike Pence sort of reversed the roles with Mother.
coin operated
The people who hold purity balls
thinkbelieve a virgin got pregnant…Tony G
I wonder what percentage of Evangelical Christians support this kind of psychological abuse of teenage girls. My guess is … a really high percentage.
Miss Bianca
@coin operated: Yeah, what’s going to protect those purity girls from that? I mean, how you gonna keep ’em down on the farm after they’ve seen…the Angel Gabriel?
Urza
Not sure why this is shocking people now. These have been a thing for decades. I was aware of them in the 90s and they were disturbing then. The push for purity is quite strong among conservatives, and the women pick up on that and internalize it unless they find a way out.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Johnson is the epitome of the term American Taliban.
Betty Cracker
@eversor: Fuck off, asshole.
laura
Extreme pussy fever and hatred of women – that’s all they’ve got. White Men, please stop this bullshit that runs rampant through your cohort.
SiubhanDuinne
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
I’ve always admired the coinage “Talibangelical.”
Alison Rose
@Urza: Most of us have long been aware, sure, but I’d bet plenty of people had never heard of such a thing, and especially since the Speaker of the House is involved with them, it’s gonna put it in a much bigger spotlight.
The whole concept is creepy as hell. I mean, most fathers probably try to pretend their daughters will be lifelong virgins (even after having kids) but that’s often more just about the discomfort of the thought processes it leads one to when considering otherwise. But this whole thing where men essentially declare ownership over their daughters’ bodies and specifically their genitals is repugnant and disturbing. And then people will wonder why some of these girls will end up in abusive relationships and stay in them.
West of the Rockies
Is no one concerned about the purity of young men? Aren’t they part of the equation? Do these people tell their sons to keep it in their britches and think about baseball statistics or Jeebus?
dexwood
@Betty Cracker:
love that you do this when the knucklefucker shows up.
Brachiator
I disagree with this stuff, but I find almost every American religions views on sex and sexuality to be stupid. I’m not going to single out evangelicals for special abuse.
And I also grew up around this stuff, so I have sympathy for the actual human beings who try to navigate around this nonsense.
I had a girlfriend in high school whose religion forbade dancing and wearing jewelry, two things she loved. She sometimes tormented herself in feeling ashamed and unworthy because she couldn’t obey these rules. I didn’t care about the rules at all, but was sad to see her being upset about not living up to a stupid standard.
Also, I wonder what the equivalent purity pledge is for young men.
Are couples supposed to magically become sexual experts on their wedding night? I suppose there is some kind of premarital counseling, but it could not be any good. I also suspect that the idea continues that the husband should be in charge and the wife must meekly follow and obey.
ETA. I wonder what sex education is like in Germany, especially for those who might be religious.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
It is for their future husband that these young women must be kept pure. As long as they have that, the man’s occasiknal dalliances don’t matter. Boys will be boys.
Bugboy
We hosted a crew of German journalists here recently inquiring about how we handled various mosquito control topics. As part of our HR outreach, we have this big poster in the front office about workplace violence. The Germans were asking what that was all about, since apparently workplace violence is not really a thing in Germany. So they said…
Alison Rose
@West of the Rockies: Boys do take purity pledges too and sometimes wear the rings and such, but it’s not as focused on as it is with girls. Because, you know…sluts and stuff.
HumboldtBlue
@West of the Rockies:
I’ll never forget talking to my mother and sister (we’re talking about her son) about my nephew’s prom. The dad of the girl, who named the poor girl after Ronald fucking Reagan, pulled my nephew aside and had some sort of talk to him about how to behave and how to “not do anything untoward” to his little girl and my mother and sister were talking about that.
I looked at them both and asked: “What about nephew, is anyone thinking about his physical and emotional well-being? It’s just as important as hers.” The talk died down quickly.
Now, we are fortunate to come from a family where women and girls are treated equally and with all due respect, but still to this day it pisses me off my nephew was seen as a possible predator by this right-wing fuckbag.
Major Major Major Major
God these people are gross. At least everyone’s getting a crash course on what they’re like. Yeah, it’s all popular stuff, but whenever you put someone like this in a story it gets bashed as a grotesque caricature written by woke hollywood libtards…
Omnes Omnibus
@eversor:
Merry Christmas.
C Stars
This is an excellent question. Takes two to tango…
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Omnes Omnibus: That young man’s diatribe left me with a lot to pray on…
Urza
@West of the Rockies: I know the girls of such families try to get their boyfriends to sign virginity pledges. Those same girls also initiate the sex because they’re teenagers with hormones. And then go through the usual conservative mental gymnastics to reconcile the cognitive dissonance and still perpetuate the system with their children because with no one allowed to talk about it they think their ‘mistake’ is the abnormality instead of the norm.
Ladyraxterinok
@West of the Rockies:
@West of the Rockies:
They monitor their sons’ porn watching!! See Mike ‘s setup with his son
Alison Rose
I’m guessing our resident waste of skin is screeching about his usual thing, but I wonder if he includes Orthodox Jews and Muslims in today’s petulant little whinefest? Because most people in both of those groups also discourage or outright forbid premarital sex. I mean, hell…we could talk about “honor killings” in some certain sects of the Islamic world. Apparently to our little hateful baby, no one in any other religion has ever done a bad thing or held a bad belief. Interesting!!!!
Delk
American Dad did an episode where Stan and Steve were the only father/son pair at a purity ball.
C Stars
@Urza: I was aware of them in the 90s and they were disturbing then.
Yeah, same. It was a thing in my high school even in hippytown, Northern CA. There were some girls who participated and got a ring etc etc. The thing is…my understanding was that a lot of these virginal gals and their partners would end up doing absolutely everything BUT vaginal penetration. So it was a weird kind of license for them to explore all the other stuff. Maybe not a bad thing, in the long run…? But definitely not what was intended.
Anoniminous
@Suzanne:
No wonder those asshats see incestuous pedophiles everywhere. Everyone in their ignorant hick silly assed church is a psychological if not actual incestuous pedophile.
(comment updated)
Major Major Major Major
@Ladyraxterinok: To each their own or whatever, I guess, I’m mostly concerned with the speaker of the house’s browsing history being in the hands of some weird spyware corporation
coin operated
@C Stars:
GarfieldGarfunkel and Oats did a really funny song about this entitled…The Loophole (NSFW)ETA…was about to bring this up…you got there first
ETA…got Garfunkel and Garfield mixed up
C Stars
I really hope that in the months leading up to the election we get a ton of documentaries about the weird cults so many of the Republicans belong too. Aside from just being good advertising for our side, it’s kind of fascinating to me. Like Trump’s Lady Justice, Amy Barrett Comey…she’s into some kind of evangelical Opus Dei equivalent, right?
West of the Rockies
@Alison Rose:
Do these sons pledge their purity to Mommy? It’s all so f#@%ing weird.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I forget the name, something obscure, I think “the Republican Party.”
Alison Rose
@coin operated: LOL a bit off on the name, there. Garfunkel and Oates :P
West of the Rockies
@HumboldtBlue:
My kid went to school with a girl named Reagan (her father adored the old wretch, too).
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Why should housework performing birthing pod have a view or say on the matter…?
Anotherlurker
@eversor: Oh fuck off, asshole.
coin operated
@Alison Rose: Thanks…fixed
UncleEbeneezer
Even outside of Evangelical Xtians, there are still pretty widespread beliefs and obsession with girls/women’s purity. It’s so gross.
Splitting Image
@eversor:
You were so proud to announce that you voted straight-ticket Republican. I bet you’ll be even prouder when you no longer feel you have to pretend you are saying this stuff ironically.
schrodingers_cat
@Alison Rose: So do orthodox Hindus. Some of the scriptures even glorify self immolation aka Sati on the funeral pyre of the husband.
The second class citizenship of women in the Vedic/Brahminical/Hindu religion (no matter what caste) is what turned me off of religion.
Major Major Major Major
@Splitting Image: ooh, we have a new chew toy?
Dorothy A. Winsor
Between monitoring porn and purity balls, Mike Johnson spends waaay too much time thinking about his son’s and daughter’s sex lives.
Another Scott
@coin operated: Lasagna is Forbidden!!
🤪
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@Major Major Major Major: Not new. Not interesting. Just a bigot.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Dorothy A. Winsor: One might say…intimately involved.
schrodingers_cat
@UncleEbeneezer: Yep. Religion in practical terms has meant of control over the agency of those deemed inferior. Women certainly fall into that group.
C Stars
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: LOL
Yes, that, but also, I looked it up, and the group she’s a part of is called People of Praise. Multiple charges of sexual misconduct. And Amy Coney Barrett lived with the founder while in law school.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/06/people-of-praise-accused-child-abuse-amy-coney-barrett
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
As a Christian, I say these fathers should protecting the “purity” of their daughters and preaching of the ethical shortcoming of others.
They should then tend to their own souls.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Why can’t churches figure this out? If your sexual misconduct results in charges, you’re doing it wrong. I’ll offer my services as a consultant, but it won’t be cheap.
Trivia Man
@Urza: At BYU there was an accepted story line – sex happens, she feels guilty, tells the bishop, he gets expelled because SIN, but she does not because she confessed. It was also told that if HE told first then he gets expelled because SIN but she does not because pure girls never fail, they can only be preyed upon.
All just stories to me, I was not romantically involved the entire time I was as there. (I did have one date… she showed up to the theatre with “an old friend from back home I just ran into” and she bought his ticket. There was no second date.)
Alison Rose
Honestly, one of the worst aspects of this whole thing — I’d argue THE worst aspect — is that girls and women who have been raped are made to feel like they’ve lost this “purity” and they’re filthy and despoiled now. I remember hearing a speech Elizabeth Smart gave where she talked about getting those awful sex ed classes where they tell you that if you have sex, you’re like a chewed up piece of gum, and that after she was freed after being raped almost daily for nine months, she felt like now she was that piece of gum and she was trash and no one would want her. Fucking abhorrent.
UncleEbeneezer
@schrodingers_cat: Yup. And Heaven-forbid they have sex with a Black/Brown man (especially Black).
Harrison Wesley
@Alison Rose: When I first read about this a day or two ago, I was struck by the similarity (in attitudes, not so much in practices) between the purity-ball mentality and the Wahhabi Islam mentality in the Saudi Arabia I grew up in. As I recall (and I haven’t been there in 50 years), women weren’t treated like second-class citizens or slaves or children – they were treated like animals.
I went to a presentation last Saturday by somebody who had just come back from KSA and reported on all the cool, wonderful things that are poppin’ over there. I have my doubts.
C Stars
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Really, there’s a major opportunity in the market for you here. The GOP clearly needs advice on this. Start in Florida, move up from there.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@C Stars: Eh. I’m boycotting Florida and there’s plenty of discussion available on the internet regarding the concept of consent.
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator:
I will since they single me (and all other women) out for special abuse. Same goes for fanatics of all faiths who use dogma to oppress women. But in this case it’s doubly justified since the fanatic in question is the Speaker of the House.
Harrison Wesley
@Alison Rose: I never heard of this – only musical Oates I’m familiar with is Hall & Oates (who, sadly, are having a terrible legal breakup).
The Lodger
@Bugboy: And here, I thought you took the mosquitoes to your office and beat the hell out of them…
Delk
If you google do purity pledges work you get a whole bunch of no.
trollhattan
Covenant marriage I was happily ignorant of until Mike Johnson happened. Wish I could scrub the whole thing.
schrodingers_cat
@Harrison Wesley: Not animals, animals are credited with some agency. Women are property to be protected.
Brachiator
I always thought that purity balls is what happens if you don’t get enough sex.
Also, Schweddy balls, from SNL.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Delk: Inexplicably, human attempts to force people to act on their animal instincts only in ways acceptable to the most miserable people have not borne fruit.
schrodingers_cat
@Alison Rose: Women are property to be protected and should have no agency or thoughts or feelings of their own.
If you read the grossness that is Manusmriti this is inshrined doctrinally. And it should come as no surprise that the ruling RWNJs in India love it.
ChuckInAustin
God’s loophole
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ZF_R_j0OY
Urza
@C Stars: People of Praise is literally the group that Handmaids Tale is based off.
Harrison Wesley
@schrodingers_cat: I think you’re right, but in KSA back then they weren’t all that valuable. In an emergency you save camels and donkeys first, then the wimmins if you could (or would).
Alison Rose
@Harrison Wesley: They are (were?) a hilarious send-up duo of two young women making kinda parody songs. Sex With Ducks remains a favorite.
Harrison Wesley
@Alison Rose: Thanks – this is the sort of thing that an out-of-touch Old like me doesn’t get.
Capri
Back in the day when the various religions came up with the concept of purity and no sex before marriage most folks got married when they were much much younger than is typical today – like 13 or 14 years old. Not so hard to stay pure when you’re 12.
The idea that someone should go through their late teens/early twenties without having sex is a complete non-starter.
frosty
@Omnes Omnibus: Priceless!
Suzanne
@Urza: Yeah, I am a 1980 baby, and I had classmates who did this shit in the 90s. Not new. But was and is very gross!
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
We’re on the same page here. And as others have noted, there are many faiths and fanatics which oppress women.
The Speaker of the House is particularly odious, but more so because he also believes that there is no separation between church and state, and also perhaps that he has been chosen by God to bring religious cleansing to America.
I might have less of a problem with him on these matters if he kept his ridiculous religious views to himself.
JCJ
@C Stars:
A few years ago someone (DougJ?) put up a video from Garfunkel and Oats with a song The Loophole with the line “Fuck Me In The Ass Because I Love Jesus”
Link
Needless to say – NSFW
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: hahahahaha
well done, sir!
bbleh
Probably worth noting that one set of labels used in “Moral Foundations Theory” — which is a “five-factor theory” that identifies the “dimensions” of morality (similar ones describe personality) — has “purity” (aka “sanctity”) as one of the dimensions, and self-identified conservatives value it (along with “authority” and “loyalty,” how surprising) materially higher than do self-identified liberals. That is, they consider purity to be a fundamental component of morality. Thus not only “purity balls” and other echoes of virginity, but also the fetishization of fetuses. (There’s even theology to support the bit about fetuses being “pure” where born babies are not.)
All of which is to say, this sort of weirdness is DEEPLY rooted in their psyches, and they certainly would be very unlikely to understand why anyone would object to it.
Alison Rose
@JCJ: Hmm…your link gave me a “not available anymore” window. Try this?
Captain C
@Major Major Major Major:
Johnson kid: “Daddy, what is ‘pegging’, and why do you search it so often?”
Johnson: “It’s just a construction technique, son. Someday, I’m thinking of using it in our home.”
Dan B
@West of the Rockies: Christianists and a large percentage of RWNJ’s regularly claim that LGBTQ+ are the most destructive force in society. Although they make the same claim about many other issues the claims about LGBTQ+ seem especially illogical until you dig deep into their psyches. They crave “order”. Ambiguity terrifies them. They believe that gay and lesbian relationships are only about lust and sex. I often wonder whether they truly know love. They don’t believe that gay relationships, especially gay male relationships, are loveless. Their foremost issue is “Who’s in charge? Who’s the ‘man’?” They seem to believe that homosexuality and trans are contagious. They are either horrified by gay people having equitable relationships of mutual respect and that will cause total breakdown if society or they imagine any number of horrors. It’s similar to the fear of the savage black man wanting to rape white women and feminists breaking the ‘natural order’, ie. men in charge. Otherwise how would the gay / lesbian couple down the block affect your life? How would a gay bar or a Pride Parade usher in the destruction of a nation? How would civil rights protections produce a wave of mixed race children born out of wedlock? Even the term ‘wedlock’ is revealing.
I could go on.
Gin & Tonic
As a father of two well-adjusted and now happily married adult daughters, I find this on the far side of creepy.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
I didn’t really know about this. So even women who are Brahmin are second class citizens?
How does this square with women in politics? Is there an ugly push to exclude women?
Steeplejack
Everything you hear about Mike Johnson, you think it can’t get any worse. And then it does. Were the other GQP reps completely unaware of this stuff when they made him speaker, or did they just not care?
Okay, semi-rhetorical question—it was probably some of both. I can’t believe this guy is two steps from the presidency. Please don’t anybody tell me he’s besties with Leonard Leo.
Captain C
@coin operated: See also, Soaking and the Jump Hump (which would be a great band name for the right band).
Alison Rose
@Dan B:
Is that why they get upset when I try to explain what I mean by omnisexual? Must be.
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: I think there actually is a connection, but I don’t know where I saw it, so feel free to pretend you never read this@
Alison Rose
@Captain C: I mean, fair play to Mormons for being so into threesomes, I guess.
trollhattan
@Steeplejack: I have yet to learn anything about his arsenal, something I presume exists, along with a year of prepper food and a place to bunker down during The Event.
Brachiator
@Steeplejack:
They either didn’t care or applauded him for his views.
lowtechcyclist
@Alison Rose:
And on top of that, evangelical girls are taught that, in effect, it’s their job to keep the boys pure, since they’re just volcanoes of lust who can barely control themselves, by making sure they don’t tempt the boys in some way – maybe they showed a hint of cleavage, or said something that could be taken the wrong way, or who knows what. So if a boy gets the wrong idea and sexually assaults a girl, she starts with the assumption that it was her fault somehow.
@Brachiator:
I sure will. How often do you hear weird shit like this about Episcopalians or Presbyterians or Lutherans?
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Urza: And the people who push purity balls are also making sure their kids do not learn about contraception or how to prevent STDs, or the effects and possible dangers of STDs. They also raise kids who sometimes believe if its not penis in vagina sex, it does not “count” as the girl is technically still a virgin.
Guess which states have teenagers with the highest rates of STDs and teen pregnancies…..
Chief Oshkosh
@C Stars: Hell, “The National Prayer Breakfast” is weird as fuck, and that’s been going on since the 50s. So fucked up.
Trivia Man
@Harrison Wesley: Garfunkel and Oates is the superior duo
Martin
@bbleh: And that extends to all aspects of their views of social/racial hierarchy – with pure at the top and impure at the bottom. Throw in the one-drop rule, the immigrants poisoning the blood rhetoric, etc.
And conservatives work so hard to square that rhetoric with what’s acceptable to say, never actually denouncing the sentiment behind it.
If you believe that society should be hierarchical, you must have a framework for justifying and enforcing that hierarchy, and that’s the fundamental problem. Their entire ideology is built on that concept.
Steeplejack
@trollhattan:
Fair. 🧐
FelonyGovt
This “Purity Ball” nonsense only amplifies my affection and admiration for my late dad and for my husband, who both navigated having daughters without being at all weird about it.
Alison Rose
@lowtechcyclist: Yeah, we see that with a lot of school dress codes. Often the code for boys is like three sentences, whereas the code for girls is about three pages, and so much of it is about “oh no, it’ll distract the boys if they can see your shoulders/shape of your legs/above your elbow/whatever”. I mean, first off, even my misandrist ass knows that most boys are not going to be driven insane by a girl wearing cap sleeves. And if they are, well golly gee, maybe that’s a problem that boy needs to work on in himself. I thought we were supposed to be all about personal responsibility. If there are boys who are so lust-driven that the sight of a girl in leggings is going to make him nut in his pants, maybe send that boy to an all-boys school…where he will discover his bisexuality and start losing his mind over boys in swim trunks.
FelonyGovt
@schrodingers_cat: I was also turned off to religion for good- conservative Judaism in my case- by the second class treatment of women. Specifically, in the synagogue my parents (tried to) drag me to, women had to sit in the balcony, away from the men and from mens’ view.
Trivia Man
@ChuckInAustin: You forgot the NSFW tag! They have some great specials.
Bugboy
@The Lodger: Oh, we beat the hell out of them, alright. Just not in the office! :P Which, I guess, still technically qualifies as “workplace violence”?
Chief Oshkosh
@Steeplejack:
Haven’t read it, but Liz Cheney apparently writes extensively about Mike Johnson in her book because of his role in the lead up to J6. She (again) apparently covers some of his weirdness, and as this was written well before Johnson became Speaker, it seems likely that many of his cohorts knew some or a lot of this.
Betty Cracker
@Dan B: I think you’re right about ambiguity being terrifying to fanatics and even non-fanatics who have rigid views on gender roles. The mister and I got a small taste of that when I kept working after having a baby, and he stayed home and looked after the kiddo until kindergarten.
It was the logical thing to do since I had a corporate gig back then and made a lot more money than he did and had access to healthcare coverage, etc. Also it was no one else’s goddamned business, but we got constant “jokes” and dumb comments about the situation. I’m still mad about it, and the aforementioned “baby” is now 25!
WaterGirl
@FelonyGovt: How was your birthday? And did your team win at hockey?
Old School
@Trivia Man:
For those who aren’t aware, Kate Micucci recently had surgery for lung cancer (and it went well).
FelonyGovt
@WaterGirl: My birthday was very nice, thank you, but my team did not win and played pretty poorly. And I think I’m getting too old for sports in arenas– everything is so damn LOUD!
WaterGirl
@FelonyGovt: I used to go to hockey games. Not a fan of being cold, though, and I didn’t like the fights. But I liked the game!
Mr. Bemused Senior
@WaterGirl: Ah, hockey. The only sport in which each player is armed with two knives and a club. 😁
[I enjoy it too, to watch not play]
Brachiator
@FelonyGovt:
At least they could say that by sitting higher up, they were closer to God.
Anyway, never knew about this kind of separation. Interesting little detail.
Dan B
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Several gay blogs repeatedly point out that evangelical Christian leaders spend more time thinking about gay sex than gay people.
Of course how are you going to justify the righteousness of a vengeful God unless he (yes HE!) is superior? How do you justify the white man ‘saving’ poor dark savages unless the white man is obviously superior? How do you have a caste system, billionaires, presidents who are not only above the law but who ARE THE LAW!?
Brachiator
@lowtechcyclist:
I have known some very fucked up Lutherans.
As for Presbyterians,
Bill Arnold
@Brachiator:
I went to a Modern Orthodox synagogue in Jerusalem for a Friday evening service once and there was a physical divider that blocked vision but not sound; women were on the left, men on the right. (At least the liturgy was mostly familiar.)
An old Quaker meeting house (no longer used) in my area (in the Hudson Valley, NY) had a similar separation between men and women back when it was used. (Probably 1800s?) At least some Quaker unprogrammed meetings were pretty egalitarian, though; e.g. many of the early women’s rights leaders in the USA were Quakers; everyone was(is) allowed to speak from the silence during silent meeting, so they could develop speaking skills.
CaseyL
@FelonyGovt:
That would have been an Orthodox synagogue, separating women from men.
“Conservative” is a tricky term when talking about Judaism, the religion, versus Jews-as-people. Most Jews are liberal, politically, and that includes most Jews of the Conservative persuasion.
Judaism is divided into three main types: Orthodox, Conservative and Reform.
“Orthodox” are the fundamentalists of Judaism. They aspire to obey every law in the Mishneh Torah (which includes all the Old Testament plus Talmudic law). There are fanatical sects within Orthodox Judaism, some of whom are as RW as any MAGA, and as fringe in their religious-social practices as Mike Johnson. But that isn’t true of all Orthodox Jews, some of whom are just deeply devout but don’t insist that everyone around them also be.
“Conservatism” is the sect of Judaism which is considerably less, um, orthodox. They may go to Temple, probably only on the High Holidays. Their kids go to Hebrew School until bar/bat mitzvah, and likely stop at that point. I was raised a Conservative Jew by a family that was not devout at all, but thought it was their duty to send me to Hebrew School, get me bat mitzvah’d, and generally learn about my people. I went to Temple on Saturdays; they did not. (I also kept going to Hebrew School until graduation, for reasons which I cannot now remember at all. I am so far from devout, I tell people there are floor lamps more devout than I am.)
“Reform” Jews are the least observant of all. I actually know very little about them, other than the old joke among Conservative Jews: “What do you call a Reform Jew?” “A Christian.”
In any case, only Orthodox Jews have separate places in temple for men and women.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: The Constitution adopted after independence treats women as equal. I was talking about religious rituals.
The sacrificial consecrated thread ceremony is only for upper caste boys (its supposed to mark the beginning of your religious learning). Only men can perform certain religious cermonies.
mrmoshpotato
@Suzanne:
Aside from being disgustingly controlling, that is beyond creepy.
Dan B
@Alison Rose: There must be answers!!! If there is not a single correct answer then one, no matter how unsubstantiated, must, must, must be selected and followed resolutely or EVERYTHING will fall apart! There MUST BE PURITY! I often wonder if christianist, and other fundamentalists, can only orgasm if they feel dominant. Mutual love and shared physical pleasure are foreign concepts. The MAN is the foundation and must be unmoving abd unshakeable to support the diaphanous nature of the female.
I believe that many men are emotionally disconnected and thus immature and not capable of growth. They need simple rigid rules to survive.
HumboldtBlue
@Betty Cracker:
Seeing as though it’s Xmas and 15 years ago you posted one of the funniest Xmas posts ever, can we revisit that post this weekend?
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
Yep. I have read some on the Indian Constitution. I admire how it promotes an ideal of equality and fairness. I guess it makes some of this flirtation with nationalism in India so puzzling.
But again, right wing nutjobs here at home read all kinds of crap into the Constitution that clearly is not there.
I didn’t know anything at all about the consecrated thread ceremony or some of this deference towards men.
Dan B
@Betty Cracker: I got clued in to the fear of ambiguity in Gay Liberation when we sent panels to talk to student groups. 90% of the time there was a question about “Who’s the man?” This was before I was in a committed relationship and I knew from dating that there was no “man” or “woman” in gay male relationships. The ambiguity puzzled some and distressed others. I believe it’s why some LGBTQ people have a tough time coming out to themselves. They cannot imagine where they fit.
And conservatives claim there is no society.
I remember many years ago being at an event for progressive Christians who supported LGBTQ people. There was a 20 or 30 something y.o. guy who was dazzlingly handsome. He had a tall gymnast physique and Hollywood leading man face. He was raised in an extremely right wing Christianist sect. He was shaking like a leaf in fear of the unknown and probably in terror that someone equally handsome would embrace him and love him as he was. After all there were probably LGBTQ people in the crowd who would tempt him and take him into an unknown future. I felt very sorry for what his ‘church’ had done to his soul.
Subsole
@eversor:
I am not looking for an argument here. Genuinely curious. Is your beef religion in general, or just Christianity?
schrodingers_cat
Its puzzling to me as well. Indians rejected both the extreme right and extreme left during the freedom struggle and went with the centrist INC (Indian National Congress) so this current flirtation with Hindu RWNjs is perplexing. They have existed in the current form for over 90s years now and this is the strongest they have ever been. They were pretty marginal even when there was a real threat of extremist Islam in the form of Muslim League in pre-independence India.
That’s pretty specialized knowledge and Indian-Americans are miniscule minority in the US. So its understandable if you hadn’t heard of it.
Paul in KY
@Ladyraxterinok: That is superick right there.
evodevo
@C Stars:
Yes…this…STD’s among talibangelical teenagers is no different than other subjects, but not related to vaginal intercourse LOL – somehow they have come to the conclusion (and you will find this among teenage boys especially) it’s not REALLY sex if it’s not vaginal…or directly involving penis/vagina. In their belief system, they are still virgins if that particular act hasn’t happened, even though they have done literally everything else…
https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(05)00055-8/fulltext
pluky
@lowtechcyclist: If one looks at the more conservative Presbyterians (the tell is ‘Reformed’ in the denomination), ‘Anglican Catholic’ Episcopalians, or Missouri Synod Lutherans the sex addled wackiness is easy to spot.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
Indian Americans have a significant presence in Southern California. And two families in my former apartment building were Indian American. Very nice people.
My best friend’s daughter recently married a young man who is Indian American. I think their family are Jains.
Betty Cracker
@HumboldtBlue: I will dust off the Pestivus Miracle if I get a chance. 🎄
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Pestivus, revenge of the older sibling.
Trivia Man
@Betty Cracker: Holiday classics
https://balloon-juice.com/2020/12/24/the-pestivus-parade-a-true-story-rerun-and-open-thread/
R'Chard
Wow. I would say something, anything, but for the life of me I can’t think where to start. WHAT kind of balls?
WaterGirl
@Dan B: Time for a link to The Onion’s all time best article. In my opinion!
columbusqueen
@eversor: Fuck off, troll.
Jinchi
How did the mother learn about contraception? I mean eventually someone must have clued her in otherwise she wouldn’t even mention it.
Paul in KY
@schrodingers_cat: Think I read somewhere, vis a vis camels (which are prevalent in Saudi Arabia), that you start out the riding process with your camel by beating the shit out of it. You then ride it and when you get off, you beat the shit out of it again.
That might be the ‘animal treatment’ the poor women over there received.
Paul in KY
@Capri: Good point. Back when I was a teen and involved with Methodism, I mentioned that. They sorta ignored my point…
Paul in KY
@Captain C: Well played, Captain. Well played.